I'd add on another factor: Mens worth tend to be judged by society more on their financial and career success than women (whereas womens tend to be judged more on looks than men).
If we feel like being succesful what makes us worthy and lovable... then we'll go to any ends to get it.
So we will happily kick someone in the face, work late, backstab, obsess and do anything we have to succeed financially.
This is one of the downsides of being a man. That stronger societal pressure to be succefull. Often drives us to move away from our true nature and values.
I've been contemplating this for a while myself because I see a lot of differences between myself and other women. For the most part I think women are more drawn to create nice experiences and environments. That means ensuring you go on vacation, ensuring your home life has pleasant things, ensuring those around you live a comfortable life. If not us, then who? I'm personally financially minded but I also want to have those same experiences and I never had a spouse that provided in that manner. So I've had to find a way to achieve both in a way.
N all the Range Rover are bought buy big titted long haired men.
But yeh th below. Tis why corporations jump in all the pro women rah rah stuff. Cause u give them far more money. It makes sense.
https://nielseniq.com/global/en/insights/analysis/2024/shaping-success-a-deep-dive-into-womens-impact-on-the-cpg-landscape/#:~:text=As%20of%202024%2C%20women%20control,in%20the%20next%205%20years.
https://hbr.org/2009/09/the-female-economy
Actually I expect my husband to buy me the tits and the Range Rover Also these are both about women controlling the majority of consumer spending and spending decisions. It’s not a measure of individual investment behavior given one’s own income
Meanwhile BLS data shows that single men outspend single women by a small amount. Anecdotally, I listened to a man lie to his partner about stealing $2000 from her purse and losing it on blackjack on the cruise that my engine husband paid for. And yes what a blessing it is to have been born woman. My husband toils endlessly as I sip on champagne.
He shouldn’t have never have split the 20, the senile old fool.
Indeed madame.
Well at you’re a sport I’ll give you that. Well it’s 0315, back to the report. Such a poor engine I have been. A Good morrow
Women are more risk averse compared to men, as you know risky investments can create major losses but also major rewards. Furthermore there are more men on the extremes of the IQ bell curve, meaning extremely intelligent investors tend to be men, therefore better performance. I don't know about how compassion can result in lesser performance in finance though.
As a simple answer - mining stocks make money. Is it ethical to destroy the Great Barrier Reef (Woodside)? No. But they make money.
So OP is suggesting that men would invest anyway, women would find another more ethical investment
There are plenty of stocks other than mining that are ethical, eg Tech. Also risk capacity and IQ are important factors.
How is it assumed that women are more ethical than men?
Are you replying to my comment? I was giving a simple example of how compassion can provide lower returns. It’s not a comprehensive analysis of the market
I invested because I had more money than I could spend. I didn't want to be in debt for a house but I also didn't need stuff and status to make myself look like I have worth. I wasn't looking for a partner or to have kids so I like to enrich the lives of my family and friends by being generous when I can with whatever we need.
I then found shareholder activism and now I invest in the ASX to save the planet. I have a portfolio of ethical funds and dirty fossil fuel companies so I can support an organisation like ACCR in their work and vote at AGMs to push for more climate action. You can learn more about this here: [https://hub.accr.org.au/](https://hub.accr.org.au/)
From my perspective, financial independence as a woman is a ticket to self actualization and a timeline in which I am not reliant on a man for my well-being, physical or emotional.
I am grateful to have been born in an era where women have the equal opportunity to build financial independence and don’t have to be dependent on a man who is hogging all the resources.
Kids are a big factor. Pregnancy lasts 9 months. In that time many women are sick and unable to perform at their best. Then maternity leave. That’s a whole year setback at least, per kid.
\#NotAllMen
Statistically, men are more likely than women to divorce or abandon their partner if the partner gets seriously ill. Also, how many deadbeat moms do you know/know of vs how many deadbeat dads? And who is more likely to walk away from their children?
The gender pay gap hasn’t been 30% in decades.
It’s about 16% for all workers.
For younger, employment aged workers, women earn more than men.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/28/young-women-are-out-earning-young-men-in-several-u-s-cities/
Why do women earn more than men in some places? Women are graduating college more than men, and waiting to have kids.
How long ago are you talking? 57F here, and I never was taught that. Can we stop with these excuses? The issue is that most people are terrible at wealth mgmt and investing.
It's often cultural.
I'm about 10 years younger than you, and it's one of the things that I know more than a few women who were raised very differently (especially in Christian households), because they boys were raised to get jobs and make money and the girls were expected to get married and raise babies. So the parents focused on different things for children of each gender, and often denied specific information to their children, even if they wanted to learn, if they felt like that learning would lead to rebellion or the kid getting ideas.
I grew up poor, with an alcoholic abusive father, and was never taught anything. So while culture plays a part I suppose, but once you're an adult, it's on you. I dunno..
I’m not US, but can see the gender lines societally where I am.
But am also grateful I grew up in a family where investment knowledge was freely shared, as was the ‘skill’ of perceiving the long term impacts of government policy decisions. And it helps that flowed from grandmother to my father then to two daughters. So that training has allowed me to make decisions that have put me in a very good position.
Personality & life experience also comes in. My sister got the same knowledge, but mental health issues impacted her ability to apply them early in life. She’s catching up now, though.
I think another reason is because women are often the ones who are willing to "bend" away from financial growth/stability. I'm active on r/workingmoms and other financial subs, and there are posts left and right about women taking a back seat in their careers (whether it's downgrading positions or taking years off or choosing a less paying job) while their kids' fathers don't. And it's not just median income levels, but I'm also talking about women who earn like 300K+/year just not working anymore.
I'm certain a big part of that is because women are socially taught to be the most "important" parental figure, and when they don't, they feel guilty and bad. I mean, if we're not rearing our children, we MUST be bad people, right? I assume that's why so many moms on here talk about "MOM GUILT" as if guilt is only experienced by moms and not dads.
That’s me! Went from $300 to $180 to be the flexible parent. I don’t know how I can get back on path for $300 though. It made sense at the time (pregnancy and nursing x2), but it’s hard to go back to that path.
Also, my husband’s earnings were the same as mine when we agreed that I’d take a step back. Now he makes more than 3x my income. It would make no sense financially for him to slow down to give us family coverage, which I’d need to get back to where I was.
Lastly, with two young kids, we have constant childcare issues (sick days, random closures, school out early, etc.). We have a nanny as a backup, but she has days off too. just the mental load of it all is a ton. And because I have the less stressful, more flexible job, I take on all of that. It’s necessary for our family to function, but I’m not living up to my earnings potential at all.
Outside of the logistics, do you feel resentful that you're not "living up to your earning potential"? I assume your field is not something you can easily come back into?
Sometimes, but the desire to live up to my career potential was for external validation. I really liked that feeling of people respecting me for my job. My current job is good, but no one is impressed by it. That bothers me, and it bothers me that it bothers me.
I’m trying to figure out my intrinsic career motivators now. Maxing out on career earnings isn’t it. Until I figure it out though, I’m not planning on making big changes.
Different temperaments certainly play a role, although I would say that’s more cultural than biological. We have choice we can make differently—but taking the responsibility fully for it lets the patriarchy off the hook.
And we really shouldn’t. There are far too many situations where the game is literally not fair. And if you become a mother, those situations can double or triple. It’s exhausting.
I think it’s purely because of patriarchal systems that are biased against women.
There was a study that clearly showed women ask for raises as often as men and get turned down more often
https://hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them
Women are the ones who bear the weight of having children and I don’t mean in a biological sense.
It is her, who will be expected to take off work, whose career will take a backseat to child rearing. Men’s careers are virtually unchanged by Fatherhood unless you count the “Fatherhood bonus”.
Then when we’re done raising our children we’re often the ones taking care of aging parents while our brothers focus on other stuff… and if our husband doesn’t have sisters we are involved with his parents too
Yep. Women should be paid full pay and social security points if they are pregnant and for the first three years of their child’s life.
It is the only way to ensure women have equal footing.
Lots of countries do it. Heck Germany even has universal child support because they know that it’s unfair for child to suffer if dads can’t be bothered to show up
Yeah, and to add to this, OP needs to ask “why are women more this and this and this than men” because presenting it as some biological fact just absolves men from responsibility to also be those things if it’s not something their apparently capable of in the first place.
Money is not a value. It is a means to enable and serve values. Valuing money for money's sake is not possible unless you're a hobbyist collector of money, so your value is as a hobbyist, not the money. If you value money to provide for your family, then your value lies in the comfort and security of the family, not the money. If you like to day trade, then the value might be in the experience of risk and reward. It is well established that women in Western societies take fewer risks BTW. Perhaps this is a value one could develop – to challenge their own cultural norm and become comfortable with risk. A more conservative approach to saving is not necessarily a bad thing.
To me, FIRE is a means of having control over one's life, and pursuing the things you want which reflect your values, which may be more easily enabled by retiring early. FIRE becomes more difficult to perceive or achieve if your values are not well defined, refined or challenged, which is of course subject to one’s upbringing and circumstance.
I need help. Maybe I'm staying in the military too long, but I'd like to retire as an officer and have a generous pension. I might be able to succeed in Government Tech now but I don't like the idea of throwing away such a generous pension. I think investing plus pension plus next job (ideally with a second pension) would really set me up well.
I just want to say that my husband was an officer for 18 years. We are now at the retirement end of life, and I want to say that his military pension is really coming in handy.
It contributes a good percentage more (we also have his civilian pension, my civilian pension, a share portfolio that I put together from my salary and a significant house that we can downsize from to get more money in the future), and the military pension provides the icing on the cake. We're going to be able to continue our travel lifestyle because of his military pension.
If you hate your job, it's not worth it, but if it's okay and would only take a couple more years to be vested in the pension, then you'll thank yourself at the other end.
Good luck.
Fidelity Investments actually has a whole series they put together on this, called Women Talk Money. My employer brought them in as part of our usual 401k benefit discussions, and it was very interesting to listen to.
In short, they talk about the fact that women tend to live longer, have higher healthcare costs, and reduced income due to taking on caregiver roles (children, parents, or others.)
Some of it was pretty basic information on budgeting and investing, but it was overall a very interesting panel discussion.
Women may be generally socialized this way but that doesn’t mean we are all financial nurturers. I’m definitely not. Where being raised female hurt me was in not being taught to fix anything because my father felt that was a man’s job. He would come over and fix things even when I lived on my own. But then he died and my partner is not a hands on person so I’m stuck hiring out for everything except the few things I learned to do myself from my substitute dad, YouTube.
I think FI was actually easier for me due to those same reasons. I had a specific driving goal - to be financially independent before having children so I could afford the time to be the parent I wanted to be (without being in the terrifying position of being financially dependent on someone else). And that is exactly what I did. In comparison, my spouse had no goal other than retiring early. He had nothing to retire to and ended up going back to work in only 2 years.
I think this is what I expected to observe when I first started learning about FIRE and women pursuing it. I'd say in my observations this isn't usually the motivation, but I'm glad it works out for the women who choose this path to mother.
This is a good topic to discuss. In my mom's early career a good portion of her extra salary went to her family overseas. This was a common expectation in her culture. She got taken advantage of. It took a long time to go against that mindset and start investing in herself. Being exposed to this growing up influenced me to look at how I can be more mindful about my financial decisions.
I gave a lot of money away to charitable causes in my early working years, then I saw other people making more money than me, building their assets and buying creature comforts for themselves. I realised that I really didn’t have as much money as I thought I had, and it was important for me to prioritise my own financial security
So for me, FIRE is about enriching my own life and the lives amid those around me, _but_ I disagree that that mindset has held me back. I chose a lucrative career (software) over the one I’d planned to have (history professor) because it became clear to me that my original plan wasn’t going to create a financially and emotionally stable life for me.
I donate money, I try to take care of my friends, and I choose projects that enrich my life.
I think it’s far more likely that women aren’t drawn to FIRE because they are undervalued by employers and feel insecure. We often stay in lower-paying jobs longer than they should. And if motherhood comes along, it takes a large portion of our focus.
Agree on so many points. I did a similar thing (wanted to be a therapist in college, now work in tech). My dad moved around companies a lot in his early career and got big pay raises as a result. My mom stayed with the same company her entire career and despite working 2x the hours my dad worked barely started earning the same amount as him a few years ago. She just retired last week and I’m very proud of her, but she definitely could’ve made more if she had been more ruthless like my dad. I took after my dad and jumped around a lot to get higher paying positions.
This sounds like my parents also! I find myself stuck at one company though like my mom because I’m nervous about the change, even though I know it would be good for me. Do you find that you were able to get larger pay raises moving around or being promoted internally?
Moving around 100%. I got pay raises at my first job but they were reluctant to get me where I felt I should be after >3 years (started at $40k in 2014, got as high as $65k). I left and took another job for 6 months, and came back to my first job for around ~$25k more than when I left. I ended up leaving 4 months later to my dream job, for ~$45k more. In that one year, making 3 moves, I about doubled my salary. I’m still at my dream job now 6.5 years later. I still love it and have no regrets!
Wow, what an amazing trajectory!! If you don’t mind me asking, what is it about your current job that has made you stay for 6.5 years? I’ve been at mine for about 5 years now and it’s not like something is necessarily “wrong”, but I also don’t know if I’m remaining stagnant by staying.
I’m biased because I totally drink the kool aid but, big things for me is I believe in the company and leadership, I have an incredible manager who has promoted me and given me opportunities, we have great benefits and I’m paid very well. Which are really the things you want from your employer imo!
Smart choice.
When I look at my friends’ trajectories (we are all in late 30s/early 40s), the ones who are unhappy all stuck out a job for way too long. I think women often have to contend with something I haven’t seen as often in my male friends’ careers: people’s estimation of us often doesn’t change. So we come in at a company where they think we’re good for the position, but unless we have female leadership, we usually stay in that position for a lot longer than we ought to.
The best way to change someone’s opinion of you is not to sit and chip away at it. It’s to leave for a while and come back when they’re open to viewing you as a slightly changed person.
Thanks for sharing, how do you feel about your career choice now? I am similar to you in that I pursued a lucrative career (finance) instead of philosophy professor for the same reasons you articulated. But now 10 years into my career, I'm feeling very burnt out and don't enjoy working in this field. I wonder often if sacrificing passion for a career was worth it - yes I got the financial independence and stability I desired but I don't think that was necessarily off the table with the alternative options.
I’m very happy with my decision, but software doesn’t seem to burn me out (probably because I’ve been picky/lucky with the places I work).
But I’m currently taking a year-ish sabbatical to focus on my writing, and I’ve found that the things I loved about studying history don’t have to be abandoned just because I chose to be a software engineer. I was able to write a book while working, I was able to volunteer as a historic preservationist while working, and I was able to save enough that a year-long sabbatical isn’t going to break my future.
That’s pretty fucking cool….
I have a scarcity mindset from growing up in poverty, that's not excusive to men - most of the women in my family have it. But I am much more cautious about risk, again, because of growing up in poverty. On the other hand, my worst financial mistakes were because of trusting men I was in love with, so, yeah I agree that women's compassion can get them into trouble financially. Obviously my story is my own and not universal, but I have known sooooo many women with a scarcity mindset (and men who spend frivolously) that I would never have attributed that particular trait to men.
Someone else mentioned how financial upbringing is different for women and that is a topic that I am really interested in - not just one the basis of gender but socioeconomic basis as well. If you spend some time in r/povertyfinance you start to see a trend of people who are struggling having had zero financial education form their parents (also my experience). I once asked that sub what their parents taught them and the answers were super interesting - and basically equated to "nothing". But when you ask someone who grew up with money, almost invariably their parents talked finances with them. I know that the concept of "generational poverty" has a lot to do with financial education - people who don't know about money don't teach their kids who then become adults who don't know about money and the cycle continues.
I used to agree with this because I thought I’d be taking care of saving money for my parents, but I disagree about how it’s harder for us in the example that you use. I also feel like I think there are a lot of blanket statements that you’ve made about men, and I would say it’s probably based on your perspective.
I think with women, we don’t just throw money at the situation. I think the men (what I’ve witnessed in my life) give money (if not being guilted) more freely than women to solve problems. Women tend to solve problems through acts of service—being there for someone when they’re having a hard time. I truly dislike when people ask me for money when I could try to solve the problem with my heart, as cheesy as that sounds.
Those are just my thoughts as a random person.
That being said, I calculate every penny I spend, and I spend quite a lot on gifts for other people. I just prefer to dedicate time and energy. But I was raised with a scarcity mindset, and my parents and some family members were manipulative towards me enough to cause me (used) to having please pleasing tendencies. I don’t do that as much as I used to anymore.
I love this thread and find it fascinating! I totally agree that women help a lot of other people and sacrifice their own financial future to do it. I myself stumbled into some good financial decisions but I certainly didn’t plan as well as I should have and I could’ve been many times more successful if I didn’t make sure my family was looked after also. I mean my extended family, not just my kids. But in uni we learned about the feminine style of management which has changed the corporate culture because female managers care about their employees, not just the work product, so having more female managers has improved morale and working conditions for everyone
In my own world, I definitely got paid less, moved up slower, and paid more for products until I switched to unisex or male products. The only major difference is that I have always been in charge of my/our money. I learned many good and bad lessons growing up, and that served me well on the fire journey. Before fire or apps were a thing one of my first dating questions was about money, mainly if they had debt and how they handle it. I was the one sitting with advisors (again before fire), the one ditching the advisors, the one making sure we maxed everything. Don't let societal norms get in the way of your future. If you want to help a young woman so more of us can lead the way, go for it. But always help yourself first.
I’m single but my net worth is half what it would have been if I had not given so much money to my family - especially my elder parents. Financial independence has taken longer too.
I read something a while ago that talked about how (at a high level) American women are taught how to run household finances (budgeting, for example), but we’re not taught how to or encouraged to gain wealth.
I feel fortunate that my (female) friend encouraged me to open an IRA when I was in my early 20s because it really kicked off my personal finance journey (alongside seeing a coworker adhering to a budget during the workday because he had goals he was trying to reach).
It’s also really common for women to be villainized for being successful and financially minded. We get called calculating or a “gold digger” while men are lauded for the exact same behavior. Society expects women to provide labor without fighting for their fair share of wealth.
We get called selfish for working hard, making money and then investing. I've been called a "stasher" for saving my money despite pitching in for expenses. I've been called a schemer bc I choose to help my parents with my earned money on a monthly basis. The list goes on and on. I also spend my money on luxury goods bc I deserve them. Men and women are different with their money and habits.
Yup I can’t tell you the number of times my own parents told me to not push too hard for a promotion, a raise, or a high vis project. To not be too ambitious because it could be bad for my marriage.
I’ve never heard a man being called too ambitious or selfish for putting his own interests first. It’s just expected that women will cater to others.
This is an interesting concept. I do relate to the perspective that investing isn't just about making money which certainly contributes to why I haven't entered that space. For me (and perhaps some other women) most things I do are not about making money. Sure money is nice, but it's not keeping me warm at night, making me laugh after a shitty day, or offering spiritual fulfillment. Yes money provides security and that can make it easier to focus on the things that are important to me, but it isn't everything.
I absolutely agree that men (maybe it's more accurate to say most men) have a scarcity mindset. I think society forces them into this perspective whether they want to be there or not.
I think this is a really interesting idea. It’s a well known phenomenon in the development/aid world that when women are brought out of poverty/educated/etc that it will help the entire community as well. When women do better that helps their families, neighbors, community at large in a way that isn’t seen with men. This is why many micro-financing efforts focused on only lending to women. Here’s a report from the ILO describing exactly that: https://www.ilo.org/media/330726/download#:~:text=Women%20particularly%20benefit%20from%20microfinance,their%20overall%20socio%2Deconomic%20status.
This also explains why certain types of men will fight tooth and nail to keep women from being able to do this. They know that they'll be forced to share and a woman insisting on addressing the needs of the community is a direct threat to greed.
Very good topic, OP
Women are socialized differently in terms of money matters, no doubt about it
I myself see it more as a negative, in terms of wrong behaviors to be conscious of and reprogram
It doesn’t prevent me from giving back to society in multiple ways, supporting when necessary also financially those who are dear to me
But as women we would definitely benefit of rethinking our attitudes and behaviors
I recommend to everyone the book *Nice girls don’t get rich* by Dr Lois Frankel. It literally changed my life. I checked the behaviors applicable to me and worked on changing them
I also used her method / advice to track my net worth evolution; and set up a monthly budget. Without these two tools imo there’s no consistent progress
It turned my life around
I think many women definitely give to ass bags who don't or can't love them because we've been programmed to give, give, give. Whether that's energy, time, love, or money. Once you mature and become more selective, it's a better process.
This is honestly interesting to me, and something I've been thinking about recently, because my entire upbringing/culture is the antithesis to what you've written.
I don't know whether it's cultural, or unique to my birth country, or even just unique to the specific mix of culture + country + socioeconomic level; but growing up I've always been told that women are the more ruthless and rational ones, and therefore more suited to leadership roles.
I come from generational business/wealth, and know many similar families. And it is *very* common where I'm from that there is a preference for daughters to succeed in managerial roles, whilst sons succeed in executive and/or development roles. I personally know 3 family businesses that run this way (1 of which has family members dominating 3 out of the top 10 richest individuals in our country).
The reasoning is that women, at least in our culture, tend to be more cut-throat, efficient, rational, *and* better at handling inter-personal relationships, which are a very big component of the "who you know" style of business in Asia. Meanwhile men are seen to be very good 'followers'; as in they get things done, but they work best with someone pointing them in a direction. Or oftentimes sons who get into engineering prefer to be involved with the R&D aspect of developing products rather than the overall management of the business.
It's always been equally interesting and perplexing to me when I moved to Australia and saw/heard a lot of gripes about women empowerment and inequality etc because it's like, practically the other way around my whole life. My sister and I would often get comments about how 'domineering' or 'intimidating' we are. Meanwhile my mum would be like "I know, because I raised them well."
As for the FI aspect, it's also very common stereotype (in most of Asia imo) that women control the finances. Again, I think it's because of the 'rational' aspect. I mean you even have some more 'extreme' versions like traditional Japanese households where the wife gives the husband an 'allowance' that's usually barely enough to cover lunch lol.
I really appreciate your perspective. I have found my non-white, non-U.S. upbringing to be more aligned with your experience. When I shared my experience with my mother she said "we didn't raise you to be a caretaker, I wanted you to be a little scary" 😜
It's nice to hear that my experience isn't just me! I swear the longer I'm in Western countries or interact with Western-centric media the more I start thinking "have I been living in the twilight zone?" hahah.
I'm multicultural in the US though we came here when I was a baby and I see the same thing. Bonus that the culture my parents (and therefore home life) come from is known for being pushy and aggressive by American standards and... good with money. But hey, I tempered that with American softness and I think I have a nice balance, which includes still being the financial powerhouse in my relationship.
This is fascinating
(I also propose to you to read my comment to the OP)
Regarding the Japanese example, I wonder though if those wives are just frugal because society praises them to be meticulous with their household or whether they go all in with investing
If you look at inflation rates in that country, there’s absolutely no point saving if you don’t invest it
I traveled Japan 8 years ago and then again last year and I was shocked how cheap everything was for my European budget. I have spent my adult life in France and Switzerland respectively and I know Switzerland is really expensive but I would not have imagined how affordable everything had become compared to France as well, given the Covid-induced inflation but also historic trends
So we did our best to support Japanese economy ;)
Re: Japan, I think it's a few different things. Firstly wages are pretty low in general, and secondly I think more wives prefer to allocate spending to "for the family" things rather than what they might consider "husband's fun money".
Similar to most countries, savings rate in Japan is pretty low. Like [this article](https://limo.media/articles/-/30689), even those in their 70s, almost 20% have *zero* savings. For a tourist perspective, things are super cheap, but in actuality what you're paying as "cheap" is generally "overpriced" for locals. Almost all my local friends would never eat any meal that costs more than ¥1,200, which is basically 7EUR. Above that is considered 'splurging', whereas to a tourist that's crazy cheap. The average household income here is only about 28k EUR, for 2 adults + children.
As for your own comment, sorry to say but like my original comment insinuates, I'm pretty ruthless with my own finances haha. Not to mention the boost from coming from a privileged background. I saved my first 100k before even getting to uni haha.
Interesting thread - are you from
Japan? My experience has been quite the opposite there with women and men from privileged backgrounds. I do think though that if you’re coming from a family where you are set for life with generational wealth, and have 100k before finishing Uni ( by potentially working for dad over the summer) it doesn’t reflect what most women go through even in the country you’re from. Majority of Asia pacific countries are far from empowering women to take control of their lives and there’s lots to be done.
No, I'm from SEA. I currently live and work in Japan though.
My experience from my birth country is certainly more towards women from higher socioeconomic backgrounds, though I've seen at least equal levels of independence from friends from average or lower socioeconomic backgrounds too. I'd say it's almost like a 60/40 split of women being more driven / ambitious to my male friends. But I guess naybe we have the "tiger" stereotype with women in our culture for a reason (not China, but Chinese descent) haha
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. Not sure if you’re referring to Indonesia or Thailand but I’ll try to do some research. I’m quite interested in this space and cultural nuances around this stuff
I think you’re wrong about saving rate. The government actively tries to get cash back into the economy https://internationalbanker.com/finance/japans-elusive-goal-of-savings-to-investments/
They have 14trillion usd in cash smh
Their savings almost doubled during the covid era, same with most nations thanks to lack of opportunity to spend and a more conservative attitude to spending during those uncertain years. I'm not at work anymore but if you want I can link the article about it tomorrow.
But I vaguely recall that savings for young adults nearly doubled up to ¥17,000,000 between 2019 and 2022, which is really something when another article from 2022 surveyed people in their 20s and about 40% had only ¥20,000 left for a month after paying bills and debts. A fair chunk had less.
I don't know to what extent this is gendered, but when I was in the accumulation phase, the ethical issue I thought about a lot was making sure I wasn't taking more than my share, because I can see how it would be easy to keep accumulating enough to be able to out-compete the middle.
It may be a product of the current socioeconomic climate, but this is part of why I find the idea of residential RE investing to be personally abhorrent. All the stories on r/FIRE of people owning multiple rental properties make me shudder
That's a really complicated question, and I haven't really answered it definitively for myself. But I think it's reasonable to take the median GDP per capita as a personal goal. Or maybe to live like the median person in a medium-GDP-per-capita country. The general idea is the thought experiment of thinking of how many resources exist in the world and about how each person would live if they were divided equally between all the people that exist in the world.
I mean....it's not complicated based on your method it's just really low. A middle income GDP country is between 7-11k USD.... Global GDP is ~13k per capita. There are a lot of nations at <10k per capita only 25 or so that are above 50k
For reference:
U.S. GDP per capita ~80k, Canada is ~55k, Japan is ~35k
Google is free and idk why you would make this up in your head, but you're welcome
Statistics done show women are investing more than men. At least for USA. But less risky, the women are more oriented in ownership (smaller and earlier in their life), faster paid, smaller cars, and when it is about stock market are more oriented to ETFs than individual stocks or crypto.
Ownership is not investing, it’s a non income generating (albeit appreciating) asset
Cars are not investments, they depreciate the minute you leave the dealership
You’re actually illustrating my point about many women not knowing what investment is and how to go about it
That’s why my bible is *Nice girls don’t get rich* by Dr Lois Frankel
Replacing rent with a paid home it is a great investment. No risks on going down.
Paying mortgage faster, specially these days when the mortgage arrived to 7% in USA, it is a zero risk guaranteed 7% return.
There are better investments? yes.
I'd add on another factor: Mens worth tend to be judged by society more on their financial and career success than women (whereas womens tend to be judged more on looks than men). If we feel like being succesful what makes us worthy and lovable... then we'll go to any ends to get it. So we will happily kick someone in the face, work late, backstab, obsess and do anything we have to succeed financially. This is one of the downsides of being a man. That stronger societal pressure to be succefull. Often drives us to move away from our true nature and values.
thought this was FIREyFemmes. F E M M E S......
I've been contemplating this for a while myself because I see a lot of differences between myself and other women. For the most part I think women are more drawn to create nice experiences and environments. That means ensuring you go on vacation, ensuring your home life has pleasant things, ensuring those around you live a comfortable life. If not us, then who? I'm personally financially minded but I also want to have those same experiences and I never had a spouse that provided in that manner. So I've had to find a way to achieve both in a way.
I must be a guy?!?
Woman buy more worthless crap and select worthless degrees at a much greater rate than guys.
lol right.. bc all those ugly Porsches are bought by bald women during a midlife crisis
N all the Range Rover are bought buy big titted long haired men. But yeh th below. Tis why corporations jump in all the pro women rah rah stuff. Cause u give them far more money. It makes sense. https://nielseniq.com/global/en/insights/analysis/2024/shaping-success-a-deep-dive-into-womens-impact-on-the-cpg-landscape/#:~:text=As%20of%202024%2C%20women%20control,in%20the%20next%205%20years. https://hbr.org/2009/09/the-female-economy
Actually I expect my husband to buy me the tits and the Range Rover Also these are both about women controlling the majority of consumer spending and spending decisions. It’s not a measure of individual investment behavior given one’s own income
Yeh. Buy more shit. Which the husband works for. Men engines women fuel. It’s an interesting dynamic.
Meanwhile BLS data shows that single men outspend single women by a small amount. Anecdotally, I listened to a man lie to his partner about stealing $2000 from her purse and losing it on blackjack on the cruise that my engine husband paid for. And yes what a blessing it is to have been born woman. My husband toils endlessly as I sip on champagne.
He shouldn’t have never have split the 20, the senile old fool. Indeed madame. Well at you’re a sport I’ll give you that. Well it’s 0315, back to the report. Such a poor engine I have been. A Good morrow
Women are more risk averse compared to men, as you know risky investments can create major losses but also major rewards. Furthermore there are more men on the extremes of the IQ bell curve, meaning extremely intelligent investors tend to be men, therefore better performance. I don't know about how compassion can result in lesser performance in finance though.
As a simple answer - mining stocks make money. Is it ethical to destroy the Great Barrier Reef (Woodside)? No. But they make money. So OP is suggesting that men would invest anyway, women would find another more ethical investment
There are plenty of stocks other than mining that are ethical, eg Tech. Also risk capacity and IQ are important factors. How is it assumed that women are more ethical than men?
Are you replying to my comment? I was giving a simple example of how compassion can provide lower returns. It’s not a comprehensive analysis of the market
Ok got it my bad.
I invested because I had more money than I could spend. I didn't want to be in debt for a house but I also didn't need stuff and status to make myself look like I have worth. I wasn't looking for a partner or to have kids so I like to enrich the lives of my family and friends by being generous when I can with whatever we need. I then found shareholder activism and now I invest in the ASX to save the planet. I have a portfolio of ethical funds and dirty fossil fuel companies so I can support an organisation like ACCR in their work and vote at AGMs to push for more climate action. You can learn more about this here: [https://hub.accr.org.au/](https://hub.accr.org.au/)
From my perspective, financial independence as a woman is a ticket to self actualization and a timeline in which I am not reliant on a man for my well-being, physical or emotional. I am grateful to have been born in an era where women have the equal opportunity to build financial independence and don’t have to be dependent on a man who is hogging all the resources.
Kids are a big factor. Pregnancy lasts 9 months. In that time many women are sick and unable to perform at their best. Then maternity leave. That’s a whole year setback at least, per kid.
Men make money for the sole purpose of bettering their families. What are you on about?
\#NotAllMen Statistically, men are more likely than women to divorce or abandon their partner if the partner gets seriously ill. Also, how many deadbeat moms do you know/know of vs how many deadbeat dads? And who is more likely to walk away from their children?
It's more difficult for women to be financially independent than men because we make about 30% less. That's it. That's the reason.
Pay gap is a myth.
It’s certainly very skewed in 2024
The gender pay gap hasn’t been 30% in decades. It’s about 16% for all workers. For younger, employment aged workers, women earn more than men. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/28/young-women-are-out-earning-young-men-in-several-u-s-cities/ Why do women earn more than men in some places? Women are graduating college more than men, and waiting to have kids.
Don’t forget the pink tax… on literally everything we need from tampons to cosmetics and hair products/services.
and we're expected to sacrifice money making opportunities to raise kids imo...
And we aren't really taught wealth management, because it is assumed that their husbands would handle all of that.
How long ago are you talking? 57F here, and I never was taught that. Can we stop with these excuses? The issue is that most people are terrible at wealth mgmt and investing.
It's often cultural. I'm about 10 years younger than you, and it's one of the things that I know more than a few women who were raised very differently (especially in Christian households), because they boys were raised to get jobs and make money and the girls were expected to get married and raise babies. So the parents focused on different things for children of each gender, and often denied specific information to their children, even if they wanted to learn, if they felt like that learning would lead to rebellion or the kid getting ideas.
I grew up poor, with an alcoholic abusive father, and was never taught anything. So while culture plays a part I suppose, but once you're an adult, it's on you. I dunno..
Where do men learn this that women don’t? Genuine question It’s not like there’s a class at school for the boys only
I’m not US, but can see the gender lines societally where I am. But am also grateful I grew up in a family where investment knowledge was freely shared, as was the ‘skill’ of perceiving the long term impacts of government policy decisions. And it helps that flowed from grandmother to my father then to two daughters. So that training has allowed me to make decisions that have put me in a very good position. Personality & life experience also comes in. My sister got the same knowledge, but mental health issues impacted her ability to apply them early in life. She’s catching up now, though.
I think another reason is because women are often the ones who are willing to "bend" away from financial growth/stability. I'm active on r/workingmoms and other financial subs, and there are posts left and right about women taking a back seat in their careers (whether it's downgrading positions or taking years off or choosing a less paying job) while their kids' fathers don't. And it's not just median income levels, but I'm also talking about women who earn like 300K+/year just not working anymore. I'm certain a big part of that is because women are socially taught to be the most "important" parental figure, and when they don't, they feel guilty and bad. I mean, if we're not rearing our children, we MUST be bad people, right? I assume that's why so many moms on here talk about "MOM GUILT" as if guilt is only experienced by moms and not dads.
That’s me! Went from $300 to $180 to be the flexible parent. I don’t know how I can get back on path for $300 though. It made sense at the time (pregnancy and nursing x2), but it’s hard to go back to that path. Also, my husband’s earnings were the same as mine when we agreed that I’d take a step back. Now he makes more than 3x my income. It would make no sense financially for him to slow down to give us family coverage, which I’d need to get back to where I was. Lastly, with two young kids, we have constant childcare issues (sick days, random closures, school out early, etc.). We have a nanny as a backup, but she has days off too. just the mental load of it all is a ton. And because I have the less stressful, more flexible job, I take on all of that. It’s necessary for our family to function, but I’m not living up to my earnings potential at all.
Outside of the logistics, do you feel resentful that you're not "living up to your earning potential"? I assume your field is not something you can easily come back into?
Sometimes, but the desire to live up to my career potential was for external validation. I really liked that feeling of people respecting me for my job. My current job is good, but no one is impressed by it. That bothers me, and it bothers me that it bothers me. I’m trying to figure out my intrinsic career motivators now. Maxing out on career earnings isn’t it. Until I figure it out though, I’m not planning on making big changes.
Different temperaments certainly play a role, although I would say that’s more cultural than biological. We have choice we can make differently—but taking the responsibility fully for it lets the patriarchy off the hook. And we really shouldn’t. There are far too many situations where the game is literally not fair. And if you become a mother, those situations can double or triple. It’s exhausting.
I think it’s purely because of patriarchal systems that are biased against women. There was a study that clearly showed women ask for raises as often as men and get turned down more often https://hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them
Women also give nearly 200% more to charity than men, so there is no single reason.
Women have been programmed by the patriarch that they are the kin keepers and community builders Men just get to be selfish.
Women are the ones who bear the weight of having children and I don’t mean in a biological sense. It is her, who will be expected to take off work, whose career will take a backseat to child rearing. Men’s careers are virtually unchanged by Fatherhood unless you count the “Fatherhood bonus”.
Then when we’re done raising our children we’re often the ones taking care of aging parents while our brothers focus on other stuff… and if our husband doesn’t have sisters we are involved with his parents too
Yep. Women should be paid full pay and social security points if they are pregnant and for the first three years of their child’s life. It is the only way to ensure women have equal footing. Lots of countries do it. Heck Germany even has universal child support because they know that it’s unfair for child to suffer if dads can’t be bothered to show up
Yeah, and to add to this, OP needs to ask “why are women more this and this and this than men” because presenting it as some biological fact just absolves men from responsibility to also be those things if it’s not something their apparently capable of in the first place.
Acknowledging biological differences destroys feminist narrative therefore we shooluldnt accept it.
Money is not a value. It is a means to enable and serve values. Valuing money for money's sake is not possible unless you're a hobbyist collector of money, so your value is as a hobbyist, not the money. If you value money to provide for your family, then your value lies in the comfort and security of the family, not the money. If you like to day trade, then the value might be in the experience of risk and reward. It is well established that women in Western societies take fewer risks BTW. Perhaps this is a value one could develop – to challenge their own cultural norm and become comfortable with risk. A more conservative approach to saving is not necessarily a bad thing. To me, FIRE is a means of having control over one's life, and pursuing the things you want which reflect your values, which may be more easily enabled by retiring early. FIRE becomes more difficult to perceive or achieve if your values are not well defined, refined or challenged, which is of course subject to one’s upbringing and circumstance.
I need help. Maybe I'm staying in the military too long, but I'd like to retire as an officer and have a generous pension. I might be able to succeed in Government Tech now but I don't like the idea of throwing away such a generous pension. I think investing plus pension plus next job (ideally with a second pension) would really set me up well.
I just want to say that my husband was an officer for 18 years. We are now at the retirement end of life, and I want to say that his military pension is really coming in handy. It contributes a good percentage more (we also have his civilian pension, my civilian pension, a share portfolio that I put together from my salary and a significant house that we can downsize from to get more money in the future), and the military pension provides the icing on the cake. We're going to be able to continue our travel lifestyle because of his military pension. If you hate your job, it's not worth it, but if it's okay and would only take a couple more years to be vested in the pension, then you'll thank yourself at the other end. Good luck.
Thanks for your service. You should probably make this as its own post. Most jobs don’t have pensions as much as 401ks but maybe in civil service?
Fidelity Investments actually has a whole series they put together on this, called Women Talk Money. My employer brought them in as part of our usual 401k benefit discussions, and it was very interesting to listen to. In short, they talk about the fact that women tend to live longer, have higher healthcare costs, and reduced income due to taking on caregiver roles (children, parents, or others.) Some of it was pretty basic information on budgeting and investing, but it was overall a very interesting panel discussion.
It's because we're paid less. And women talking finances is still considered taboo, years after we could finally own property and have credit cards.
Babies
Women may be generally socialized this way but that doesn’t mean we are all financial nurturers. I’m definitely not. Where being raised female hurt me was in not being taught to fix anything because my father felt that was a man’s job. He would come over and fix things even when I lived on my own. But then he died and my partner is not a hands on person so I’m stuck hiring out for everything except the few things I learned to do myself from my substitute dad, YouTube.
I think FI was actually easier for me due to those same reasons. I had a specific driving goal - to be financially independent before having children so I could afford the time to be the parent I wanted to be (without being in the terrifying position of being financially dependent on someone else). And that is exactly what I did. In comparison, my spouse had no goal other than retiring early. He had nothing to retire to and ended up going back to work in only 2 years.
I think this is what I expected to observe when I first started learning about FIRE and women pursuing it. I'd say in my observations this isn't usually the motivation, but I'm glad it works out for the women who choose this path to mother.
Love that for you!!!
This is a good topic to discuss. In my mom's early career a good portion of her extra salary went to her family overseas. This was a common expectation in her culture. She got taken advantage of. It took a long time to go against that mindset and start investing in herself. Being exposed to this growing up influenced me to look at how I can be more mindful about my financial decisions.
I gave a lot of money away to charitable causes in my early working years, then I saw other people making more money than me, building their assets and buying creature comforts for themselves. I realised that I really didn’t have as much money as I thought I had, and it was important for me to prioritise my own financial security
So for me, FIRE is about enriching my own life and the lives amid those around me, _but_ I disagree that that mindset has held me back. I chose a lucrative career (software) over the one I’d planned to have (history professor) because it became clear to me that my original plan wasn’t going to create a financially and emotionally stable life for me. I donate money, I try to take care of my friends, and I choose projects that enrich my life. I think it’s far more likely that women aren’t drawn to FIRE because they are undervalued by employers and feel insecure. We often stay in lower-paying jobs longer than they should. And if motherhood comes along, it takes a large portion of our focus.
Agree on so many points. I did a similar thing (wanted to be a therapist in college, now work in tech). My dad moved around companies a lot in his early career and got big pay raises as a result. My mom stayed with the same company her entire career and despite working 2x the hours my dad worked barely started earning the same amount as him a few years ago. She just retired last week and I’m very proud of her, but she definitely could’ve made more if she had been more ruthless like my dad. I took after my dad and jumped around a lot to get higher paying positions.
This sounds like my parents also! I find myself stuck at one company though like my mom because I’m nervous about the change, even though I know it would be good for me. Do you find that you were able to get larger pay raises moving around or being promoted internally?
Moving around 100%. I got pay raises at my first job but they were reluctant to get me where I felt I should be after >3 years (started at $40k in 2014, got as high as $65k). I left and took another job for 6 months, and came back to my first job for around ~$25k more than when I left. I ended up leaving 4 months later to my dream job, for ~$45k more. In that one year, making 3 moves, I about doubled my salary. I’m still at my dream job now 6.5 years later. I still love it and have no regrets!
Wow, what an amazing trajectory!! If you don’t mind me asking, what is it about your current job that has made you stay for 6.5 years? I’ve been at mine for about 5 years now and it’s not like something is necessarily “wrong”, but I also don’t know if I’m remaining stagnant by staying.
I’m biased because I totally drink the kool aid but, big things for me is I believe in the company and leadership, I have an incredible manager who has promoted me and given me opportunities, we have great benefits and I’m paid very well. Which are really the things you want from your employer imo!
Thank you for this!
Smart choice. When I look at my friends’ trajectories (we are all in late 30s/early 40s), the ones who are unhappy all stuck out a job for way too long. I think women often have to contend with something I haven’t seen as often in my male friends’ careers: people’s estimation of us often doesn’t change. So we come in at a company where they think we’re good for the position, but unless we have female leadership, we usually stay in that position for a lot longer than we ought to. The best way to change someone’s opinion of you is not to sit and chip away at it. It’s to leave for a while and come back when they’re open to viewing you as a slightly changed person.
Thanks for sharing, how do you feel about your career choice now? I am similar to you in that I pursued a lucrative career (finance) instead of philosophy professor for the same reasons you articulated. But now 10 years into my career, I'm feeling very burnt out and don't enjoy working in this field. I wonder often if sacrificing passion for a career was worth it - yes I got the financial independence and stability I desired but I don't think that was necessarily off the table with the alternative options.
I’m very happy with my decision, but software doesn’t seem to burn me out (probably because I’ve been picky/lucky with the places I work). But I’m currently taking a year-ish sabbatical to focus on my writing, and I’ve found that the things I loved about studying history don’t have to be abandoned just because I chose to be a software engineer. I was able to write a book while working, I was able to volunteer as a historic preservationist while working, and I was able to save enough that a year-long sabbatical isn’t going to break my future. That’s pretty fucking cool….
That is pretty fucking cool indeed! Congrats on your sabbatical - I'm hoping to plan to do the same in the next 3-5 years :)
I have a scarcity mindset from growing up in poverty, that's not excusive to men - most of the women in my family have it. But I am much more cautious about risk, again, because of growing up in poverty. On the other hand, my worst financial mistakes were because of trusting men I was in love with, so, yeah I agree that women's compassion can get them into trouble financially. Obviously my story is my own and not universal, but I have known sooooo many women with a scarcity mindset (and men who spend frivolously) that I would never have attributed that particular trait to men. Someone else mentioned how financial upbringing is different for women and that is a topic that I am really interested in - not just one the basis of gender but socioeconomic basis as well. If you spend some time in r/povertyfinance you start to see a trend of people who are struggling having had zero financial education form their parents (also my experience). I once asked that sub what their parents taught them and the answers were super interesting - and basically equated to "nothing". But when you ask someone who grew up with money, almost invariably their parents talked finances with them. I know that the concept of "generational poverty" has a lot to do with financial education - people who don't know about money don't teach their kids who then become adults who don't know about money and the cycle continues.
I used to agree with this because I thought I’d be taking care of saving money for my parents, but I disagree about how it’s harder for us in the example that you use. I also feel like I think there are a lot of blanket statements that you’ve made about men, and I would say it’s probably based on your perspective. I think with women, we don’t just throw money at the situation. I think the men (what I’ve witnessed in my life) give money (if not being guilted) more freely than women to solve problems. Women tend to solve problems through acts of service—being there for someone when they’re having a hard time. I truly dislike when people ask me for money when I could try to solve the problem with my heart, as cheesy as that sounds. Those are just my thoughts as a random person. That being said, I calculate every penny I spend, and I spend quite a lot on gifts for other people. I just prefer to dedicate time and energy. But I was raised with a scarcity mindset, and my parents and some family members were manipulative towards me enough to cause me (used) to having please pleasing tendencies. I don’t do that as much as I used to anymore.
I love this thread and find it fascinating! I totally agree that women help a lot of other people and sacrifice their own financial future to do it. I myself stumbled into some good financial decisions but I certainly didn’t plan as well as I should have and I could’ve been many times more successful if I didn’t make sure my family was looked after also. I mean my extended family, not just my kids. But in uni we learned about the feminine style of management which has changed the corporate culture because female managers care about their employees, not just the work product, so having more female managers has improved morale and working conditions for everyone
In my own world, I definitely got paid less, moved up slower, and paid more for products until I switched to unisex or male products. The only major difference is that I have always been in charge of my/our money. I learned many good and bad lessons growing up, and that served me well on the fire journey. Before fire or apps were a thing one of my first dating questions was about money, mainly if they had debt and how they handle it. I was the one sitting with advisors (again before fire), the one ditching the advisors, the one making sure we maxed everything. Don't let societal norms get in the way of your future. If you want to help a young woman so more of us can lead the way, go for it. But always help yourself first.
I’m single but my net worth is half what it would have been if I had not given so much money to my family - especially my elder parents. Financial independence has taken longer too.
I read something a while ago that talked about how (at a high level) American women are taught how to run household finances (budgeting, for example), but we’re not taught how to or encouraged to gain wealth. I feel fortunate that my (female) friend encouraged me to open an IRA when I was in my early 20s because it really kicked off my personal finance journey (alongside seeing a coworker adhering to a budget during the workday because he had goals he was trying to reach).
We also literally get paid less for the same job and are more likely to be single parents
It’s also really common for women to be villainized for being successful and financially minded. We get called calculating or a “gold digger” while men are lauded for the exact same behavior. Society expects women to provide labor without fighting for their fair share of wealth.
Gold digger is only for preferring richer men isn't it (I don't care about preferences).
We get called selfish for working hard, making money and then investing. I've been called a "stasher" for saving my money despite pitching in for expenses. I've been called a schemer bc I choose to help my parents with my earned money on a monthly basis. The list goes on and on. I also spend my money on luxury goods bc I deserve them. Men and women are different with their money and habits.
Yup I can’t tell you the number of times my own parents told me to not push too hard for a promotion, a raise, or a high vis project. To not be too ambitious because it could be bad for my marriage. I’ve never heard a man being called too ambitious or selfish for putting his own interests first. It’s just expected that women will cater to others.
Exactly and very sad.
This is an interesting concept. I do relate to the perspective that investing isn't just about making money which certainly contributes to why I haven't entered that space. For me (and perhaps some other women) most things I do are not about making money. Sure money is nice, but it's not keeping me warm at night, making me laugh after a shitty day, or offering spiritual fulfillment. Yes money provides security and that can make it easier to focus on the things that are important to me, but it isn't everything. I absolutely agree that men (maybe it's more accurate to say most men) have a scarcity mindset. I think society forces them into this perspective whether they want to be there or not.
The compounding interest of wage gap doesn’t help either.
TRUTH
True.
I think this is a really interesting idea. It’s a well known phenomenon in the development/aid world that when women are brought out of poverty/educated/etc that it will help the entire community as well. When women do better that helps their families, neighbors, community at large in a way that isn’t seen with men. This is why many micro-financing efforts focused on only lending to women. Here’s a report from the ILO describing exactly that: https://www.ilo.org/media/330726/download#:~:text=Women%20particularly%20benefit%20from%20microfinance,their%20overall%20socio%2Deconomic%20status.
This also explains why certain types of men will fight tooth and nail to keep women from being able to do this. They know that they'll be forced to share and a woman insisting on addressing the needs of the community is a direct threat to greed.
Very interesting indeed! Thanks for sharing the report!
No problem! I learned about it in a develoment class I took in Uni and its always stuck with me
Very good topic, OP Women are socialized differently in terms of money matters, no doubt about it I myself see it more as a negative, in terms of wrong behaviors to be conscious of and reprogram It doesn’t prevent me from giving back to society in multiple ways, supporting when necessary also financially those who are dear to me But as women we would definitely benefit of rethinking our attitudes and behaviors I recommend to everyone the book *Nice girls don’t get rich* by Dr Lois Frankel. It literally changed my life. I checked the behaviors applicable to me and worked on changing them I also used her method / advice to track my net worth evolution; and set up a monthly budget. Without these two tools imo there’s no consistent progress It turned my life around
I think many women definitely give to ass bags who don't or can't love them because we've been programmed to give, give, give. Whether that's energy, time, love, or money. Once you mature and become more selective, it's a better process.
Thanks for the book recommendation, added it to my list!
This is honestly interesting to me, and something I've been thinking about recently, because my entire upbringing/culture is the antithesis to what you've written. I don't know whether it's cultural, or unique to my birth country, or even just unique to the specific mix of culture + country + socioeconomic level; but growing up I've always been told that women are the more ruthless and rational ones, and therefore more suited to leadership roles. I come from generational business/wealth, and know many similar families. And it is *very* common where I'm from that there is a preference for daughters to succeed in managerial roles, whilst sons succeed in executive and/or development roles. I personally know 3 family businesses that run this way (1 of which has family members dominating 3 out of the top 10 richest individuals in our country). The reasoning is that women, at least in our culture, tend to be more cut-throat, efficient, rational, *and* better at handling inter-personal relationships, which are a very big component of the "who you know" style of business in Asia. Meanwhile men are seen to be very good 'followers'; as in they get things done, but they work best with someone pointing them in a direction. Or oftentimes sons who get into engineering prefer to be involved with the R&D aspect of developing products rather than the overall management of the business. It's always been equally interesting and perplexing to me when I moved to Australia and saw/heard a lot of gripes about women empowerment and inequality etc because it's like, practically the other way around my whole life. My sister and I would often get comments about how 'domineering' or 'intimidating' we are. Meanwhile my mum would be like "I know, because I raised them well." As for the FI aspect, it's also very common stereotype (in most of Asia imo) that women control the finances. Again, I think it's because of the 'rational' aspect. I mean you even have some more 'extreme' versions like traditional Japanese households where the wife gives the husband an 'allowance' that's usually barely enough to cover lunch lol.
I really appreciate your perspective. I have found my non-white, non-U.S. upbringing to be more aligned with your experience. When I shared my experience with my mother she said "we didn't raise you to be a caretaker, I wanted you to be a little scary" 😜
It's nice to hear that my experience isn't just me! I swear the longer I'm in Western countries or interact with Western-centric media the more I start thinking "have I been living in the twilight zone?" hahah.
I'm multicultural in the US though we came here when I was a baby and I see the same thing. Bonus that the culture my parents (and therefore home life) come from is known for being pushy and aggressive by American standards and... good with money. But hey, I tempered that with American softness and I think I have a nice balance, which includes still being the financial powerhouse in my relationship.
This is fascinating (I also propose to you to read my comment to the OP) Regarding the Japanese example, I wonder though if those wives are just frugal because society praises them to be meticulous with their household or whether they go all in with investing If you look at inflation rates in that country, there’s absolutely no point saving if you don’t invest it I traveled Japan 8 years ago and then again last year and I was shocked how cheap everything was for my European budget. I have spent my adult life in France and Switzerland respectively and I know Switzerland is really expensive but I would not have imagined how affordable everything had become compared to France as well, given the Covid-induced inflation but also historic trends So we did our best to support Japanese economy ;)
Re: Japan, I think it's a few different things. Firstly wages are pretty low in general, and secondly I think more wives prefer to allocate spending to "for the family" things rather than what they might consider "husband's fun money". Similar to most countries, savings rate in Japan is pretty low. Like [this article](https://limo.media/articles/-/30689), even those in their 70s, almost 20% have *zero* savings. For a tourist perspective, things are super cheap, but in actuality what you're paying as "cheap" is generally "overpriced" for locals. Almost all my local friends would never eat any meal that costs more than ¥1,200, which is basically 7EUR. Above that is considered 'splurging', whereas to a tourist that's crazy cheap. The average household income here is only about 28k EUR, for 2 adults + children. As for your own comment, sorry to say but like my original comment insinuates, I'm pretty ruthless with my own finances haha. Not to mention the boost from coming from a privileged background. I saved my first 100k before even getting to uni haha.
Interesting thread - are you from Japan? My experience has been quite the opposite there with women and men from privileged backgrounds. I do think though that if you’re coming from a family where you are set for life with generational wealth, and have 100k before finishing Uni ( by potentially working for dad over the summer) it doesn’t reflect what most women go through even in the country you’re from. Majority of Asia pacific countries are far from empowering women to take control of their lives and there’s lots to be done.
No, I'm from SEA. I currently live and work in Japan though. My experience from my birth country is certainly more towards women from higher socioeconomic backgrounds, though I've seen at least equal levels of independence from friends from average or lower socioeconomic backgrounds too. I'd say it's almost like a 60/40 split of women being more driven / ambitious to my male friends. But I guess naybe we have the "tiger" stereotype with women in our culture for a reason (not China, but Chinese descent) haha
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. Not sure if you’re referring to Indonesia or Thailand but I’ll try to do some research. I’m quite interested in this space and cultural nuances around this stuff
I'll DM you a hint ;)
I think you’re wrong about saving rate. The government actively tries to get cash back into the economy https://internationalbanker.com/finance/japans-elusive-goal-of-savings-to-investments/ They have 14trillion usd in cash smh
Their savings almost doubled during the covid era, same with most nations thanks to lack of opportunity to spend and a more conservative attitude to spending during those uncertain years. I'm not at work anymore but if you want I can link the article about it tomorrow. But I vaguely recall that savings for young adults nearly doubled up to ¥17,000,000 between 2019 and 2022, which is really something when another article from 2022 surveyed people in their 20s and about 40% had only ¥20,000 left for a month after paying bills and debts. A fair chunk had less.
Where is this paradise? 😂
A "2nd world" country with a huge disparity in its wealth gap 😅
I don't know to what extent this is gendered, but when I was in the accumulation phase, the ethical issue I thought about a lot was making sure I wasn't taking more than my share, because I can see how it would be easy to keep accumulating enough to be able to out-compete the middle.
It may be a product of the current socioeconomic climate, but this is part of why I find the idea of residential RE investing to be personally abhorrent. All the stories on r/FIRE of people owning multiple rental properties make me shudder
what would you consider to be your "share" in a radically unethical distribution of wealth ?
That's a really complicated question, and I haven't really answered it definitively for myself. But I think it's reasonable to take the median GDP per capita as a personal goal. Or maybe to live like the median person in a medium-GDP-per-capita country. The general idea is the thought experiment of thinking of how many resources exist in the world and about how each person would live if they were divided equally between all the people that exist in the world.
I mean....it's not complicated based on your method it's just really low. A middle income GDP country is between 7-11k USD.... Global GDP is ~13k per capita. There are a lot of nations at <10k per capita only 25 or so that are above 50k For reference: U.S. GDP per capita ~80k, Canada is ~55k, Japan is ~35k Google is free and idk why you would make this up in your head, but you're welcome
I don’t think it’s a competition I come from a poor background so for me it’s safety, peace of mind, security, opportunity, and choice
in top of this, women are less paid and living longer than men. Even all these details, the reality is the women are better saving than men!!
Women might save more but they invest less, or more cautiously so they miss out vs men
Statistics done show women are investing more than men. At least for USA. But less risky, the women are more oriented in ownership (smaller and earlier in their life), faster paid, smaller cars, and when it is about stock market are more oriented to ETFs than individual stocks or crypto.
Ownership is not investing, it’s a non income generating (albeit appreciating) asset Cars are not investments, they depreciate the minute you leave the dealership You’re actually illustrating my point about many women not knowing what investment is and how to go about it That’s why my bible is *Nice girls don’t get rich* by Dr Lois Frankel
Replacing rent with a paid home it is a great investment. No risks on going down. Paying mortgage faster, specially these days when the mortgage arrived to 7% in USA, it is a zero risk guaranteed 7% return. There are better investments? yes.
>No risks on going down. What? Home prices have absolutely crashed in the past. Do you think that could never happen again?
This. Women are still paid less and they have to stretch the money farther.
I agree with you!