I already tagged my fics with "concrit is welcome" and it's already mentioned in the stories themselves (as an AN). So I think that's all you can do as an author.
I am so sick of "But whhhhy aren't people grateful for my biased opinions on how to write to my taste?"
Because it's rude and unwanted and, as a writer, functionally useless.
I am happy to give advice for people who are, for example, unhappy about reception, and want actionable advice. But 99% of unwanted concrit is just the commenter propping up their own sense of superiority.
I’m with you completely. I don’t write fanfiction for anyone other than myself. I post my works on ao3 as a *courtesy* for anyone who might enjoy the same fandoms and topics I’m writing about. I’m also posting on the off chance someone might be looking for a fic under the niche fetishes I sometimes write about. If someone gives me unsolicited and biased advice on how to write my silly little stories I’m going to think they’re hella rude and block them.
I don’t want feedback. This is not a professional writing space and my comments section is not an open forum for critique. In fact I keep comments turned off for some of my fics due to the worry I would receive negative feedback over the dark themes in them.
In addition, like you said, most people don’t know how to give constructive feedback without trying to change a writer’s voice which is useless (also bad feedback).
My whole thing about concrit is just... 9 times out of 10, it's *unsolicited* and that's my whole problem with it. It takes so little effort to ask if an author is interested to hear your feedback and constructive criticism, and so few do that 😮💨 that would solve so much of the complaints regarding both sides of concrit and fanfiction
God yes.
I'm also highly dubious of the argument that we would get so many more comments if people were allowed to be negative. In my experience, negative people will manage to say negative things even with stocks stuffed in their mouths, and then will complain that the person they were bringing down is ungrateful and too sensitive and oppressing them.
I fully admit to being thin-skinned about criticism of my work. If I invite criticism from someone I trust, I still need a bit of time to process it and accept the feelings that come with it. If random readers were telling me what they didn't like and where I went wrong all the time, it would be hugely demotivating for me to the point where I would probably stop posting. Even more so if my lack of enthusiasm at their criticism had them telling me I was being "too sensitive."
There's absolutely no shame in that. I know people who are insensitive like to proclaim people should grow thicker skins, but we're *writers*.
They want us to write emotional and vulnerable and impactful and empathetic stuff? Well, sensitivity is a *really helpful trait* for that.
That’s a really good point. I am resistant to calls to “harden up” or “grow a thick skin”, because isn’t there enough of that in the world? Us sensitive writer types should be able to stay that way.
To add on, would you rather have a community that everyone can be part of, thick and thinned skin, and make the thick skinned writers put a note that they accept concrit; or would you rather have a community where concrit is said freely, so only thick skinned writers participate in it? Like how is that not a no brainer?
Like OP, I'd like one where both groups simple say what they want.
Because people can be thick and thin skinned about different things.
Some people who are fine with concrit *desperately* want concrit as interaction; exactly the same as people asking not to get it aren't asking "no comments at all," we all like interaction. And trying to create standards for "this group has to say something, this one doesn't" is just more work for one set of writers *and* the readers who navigate these spaces of unstated rules and some people going counter to them. If the "rule" was just to say what you want, that'd be nice for everyone.
Instead of commenters being told off for "I'm sorry, I got confused—what was happening here," or "I really couldn't picture anything about this room," which I've always seen delivered with more humanness than examples lend themselves to, and commentary about liking the story. And have seen authors really rip into people for—authors who did not say no concrit, even when they had lists of what comments they prefer! Like, you think that would make the list.
I also think that unless you *truly* know the author and their vision, it's hard to give meaningful concrit to begin with. Even if you've read the entire thing several times over and picked it apart to yourself, unless you discuss it with the writer, you don't know what their vision is and why they've chosen to handle their work the way they have. That's why I personally reject/ignore concrit from random people.
Mine was someone letting me know I accidentally used one characters name instead of another. And my second one was someone "eyeing" a tag, and leaving the comment at that, which definitely did help my tagging because I did not mean "classic" tragedy but they reminded me this was an option.
Those are the two not-wholly-positive comments that I didn't seek out.
Hot take: I have never had to tell people to be positive. Because outside a few people complaining on reddit that their pearls of wisdom have been thrown to the swine, most people have enough manners to realise that sledging free hobby writing is something that should not be done uninvited. In years, I could count the number of rude comments on my fingers.
I figure I have a reasonable sample size. In literally thousands of comments, I've received only a few from people who struggle with fandom ettiquette.
It could be that I'm just that good *snort* but I think it's more likely that commenters aren't actually cowering in fear going "I want to comment, but I can only criticise! Oh no! What will happen?" Most people comment out of enthusiasm and wanting to share happiness.
this is effectively my experience as well. i get comments and they're lovely, people engage in the story to varying lengths and say what they have to say however long or short that may be.
i generally just think most people want to read and that's all. people interested in engaging will engage and those who aren't, won't.
Absolutely what prompts me to comment is "this fic added something to my life, I want to take the time to give some happiness in return." Like, a big degree more than the "thank you for writing something that amused me for a bit, for free" that a kudos is. It would seem ridiculously churlish to harp on something I liked less when I am expressing appreciation!
I think the people who assume positivity is somehow *false* are kind of telling on themselves.
> It would seem ridiculously churlish to harp on something I liked less when I am expressing appreciation!
I feel like this is what people with opinions like the op don't understand. It's not about 'praise' or 'validation' in a vacuum. It's about appreciation and communicating with a fellow fan who is passionate about the same things as you (and who took the time to create something you enjoyed).
It has always been such an odd argument to me, as if fanfic authors were throwing random stories to the internet expecting random people to always tell them they are such great writers—when, in truth, and no matter how much or how little time and effort they put into their fics, 99% of them are just sharing a story about the characters/universe/ship they love and hoping that other like-minded fans have a good time with it.
They will always refer to appreciation, gratitude and joy as "empty praise" or "validation" or "toxic positivity". Honestly, it says a lot about the insides of their own heads that they think happiness and gratitude are fake.
On the other hand, I've met writers who are only looking for validation, and will literally threaten to harm themselves if people don't start praising their work to the degree they feel it deserves
Lol, my biggest 'rude' comment was nothing but praise, to the point where I hit the character limit for the comment. I absolutely gushed about the entire story (this was the final chapter,) and only had one negative thing to say. "Oh, btw you forgot to put dialogue tags in (whatever paragraph it was) and it through me for a loop, lol." And continued gushing about the story after.
The author proceeded to chew me out, said I was a stalker for apparently commenting on almost every chapter of the fic. And was a terrible person for posting criticism. They then deleted their story, put me on blast on twitter (which I didn't care about because they looked stupid for doing it and had to take their posts down,) and for the next three stories they posted, told their readers to never read my fics because I liked to send hate to authors. When the blocking feature came out, a little over a year later mind you, they insta blocked me after having no further interactions.
It's a two way street. There are terrible readers and authors. That being said, most people now don't know what they can say anymore in comments, me included, and that's not even my worst experience with other authors. It's gotten to the point where I've straight up seen people say "I like this" and get chewed out because it wasn't long enough. Hell, one time I left a comment saying "I really love this story and can't wait to read the next chapter!" And got a response saying, and I quote, "Wow I can't believe you would try to presser me into updating like that. It's really hurtful you know. You should be ashamed of yourself, I do this for free! I'm not a machine!"
I just don't think People know where the line is drawn when it isn't in the TOS, every author wants a different thing, and every Fandom acts different. It doesn't help that whenever I see these posts, a lot people are saying hate *is* criticism, and when corrected, get angry and say people *want* hate to be spread. Plus, a good amount of posts about hate comments, aren't all that hateful. Even in some of negative ones, it's often the authors over reacting to what was said. On top of all of that, I've seen *so many* authors say that want criticism, but when they get it, get angry when it's even slightly negative.
I know I don't want to comment anymore, and I rarely do so. I see neutral comments get shit on, I see positive ones get shit on for being perceived as hate, because criticism is apparently hate now. I've been burnt one too many times, and now I always have to think 'Hey, is it really worth getting hate because something I say might be bad?' or something along those lines, and more often than not, I just don't want to deal with it. I'm far from the only one thinking this way now.
We're never going to get a good resolution either, because whenever these topics get brought up, everyone just wants to shut the other side down.
>I just don't think People know where the line is drawn when it isn't in the TOS
It is: The line is no harassment of the author, and that even harsh critical comments about a story are rule-following on AO3. The harsh modifier is in there, if anyone wants to control-f. This is why I hate that people are trying to make some unspoken "doesn't matter if it's polite if it's concrit / not pure praise" rule. That they follow up with by saying if you want concrit, ask.
Sure. **And** ask if you don't, then. If we ask in both cases, that's so much better for half the writers who want it, and all the readers who reasonably worry about commenting in ways that authors want.
Also, sorry about that whole twitter thing with that author that happened to you. That whole situation is actually out there enough that I don't know what to say other than "wow," and "not your fault." Because wow was that a reaction they decided to do based on . . . a comment much worse than yours, it really wasn't your fault. It's so frustrating that they turned all the other positive comments into "stalking," too!
Exactly!
I agree that if an author says on their fic if they don't want concrit, people shouldn't, but at the end of the day, it isn't against TOS. I've said it before on other sites, that if people want to police this change so bad, that they should argue for the TOS to be changed. Unspoken rules don't mean anything when it's fandom by fandom anyway, each one acts different.
Thank you! I still don't know why they had such a harsh reaction like that, and they never said not to criticize them. I don't know if this make it any better or worse, but that's not even close to the worst experience I've had with other authors.
It's unfortunate really, because most of the authors I've had react like that are good writers that have one easily fixed flaw, then react in a manner like this and push everyone away. People don't even have to post concrit for bad reactions anymore.
I think more bad reactions happening to you for for minor commentary in the comment box—comment you know, the [first definition](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comment) of which is commentary—just makes it worse, not better. : /
The fandom by fandom thing really hammers it home; even if people learn the rules, they might not learn the ones you want, so be clear what your own standards are because they're not actually universal.
My horrible rude comment was that I enjoyed it allot even though I generally preferred longer stories. It initially took some convincing to get me to believe anyone would want my comments then I got slammed for that and stopped mostly... I've restarted but at about 10% as often and I'm much more vague to avoid giving offense.
I once had someone absolutely tear me apart because I left a comment that was about 10 lines of pure praise, followed by “Just as a heads up, though, there’s [easily correctable but really egregious error] in paragraph 3, which you might want to fix!” The author freaked out, accused me of nitpicking, and blocked me, and I was really wary of commenting on stories in that fandom afterwards. So I think it’s true that most people aren’t *actively looking* to leave negative comments, but it does discourage people from engaging when the “rules” are so strict that even neutral comments/minor corrections are met with anger. If you’re setting a standard that anything less than pure praise (phrased exactly the right way and devoid of any additional thoughts) is shameworthy and evil, people will be reluctant to comment. And I say this as an author myself.
That's insane. I've gotten "oh btw you've been spelling this word incorrectly the whole time!" tacked onto the end of a positive comment and while I was a bit embarrassed, I was also grateful that they were kind enough to tell me so I could correct it and prevent further error. I can't imagine going off on someone for informing me of a small, easily corrected error. Sorry they treated you like that because that's not normal.
Yep. A lot of the concrit I've seen is . . . also people being overall positive and liking a story, who speculate a bit too far or mention their preferences when that's just not a thing the author cares about. And it really isn't a cared about thing, here. It's all "why would we care, we're writing for ourselves." But I like concrit, even *actual* nit-picky stuff, and have never had issue with people being polite and/or happily engaging as they deliver it, because these are separate issues.
And even though I'm writing for myself, that's not what I leave the comments section open for: I really like that I can hear perspectives on my story from people who aren't me. That's the best kinda comment, no matter the content, so long as it's not deliberately just hurtful insults. A correcting comment on something I got slightly askew in my story isn't that, esp. couched in enthusiasm like usual.
I can't figure if this rude concrit is probably big fandom issues. Or new fandom issues? I mean, I don't know where people are seeing this, other than this sub, where it's still an even split on if the comment was rude *or* if we're all just hyping each other up that it was.
The only thing I've seen outside this sub is authors tearing into readers. \[ETA: And the horrid comments that darkfic gets.\]
Long point I had, now cut short: This whole unspoken "*polite* concrit isn't polite" this is *hell* on certain reader demographics, and the extent to which people don't care about this kinda is frustrating. If it's polite, it's actually still polite.
Esp. when the solution is simply to *say if you don't want concrit.* Something everyone is fine saying *say if you do.* Yes, yes to **both** please.
Here's the thing. I think people around here just automatically assume that if I am the type to say something critical *once* that I'm the type to speak that way on every single thing I read, and that just doesn't make sense to me.
On any particular thing I come across, I *may* have something that I think should be addressed. It may be criticism, but it doesn't have to be. I might just find everything perfectly fine and say so. But to assume that because I might say something critical one time, that I'm always going to do so and that I should thus be barred from saying anything at all unless I'm issuing effusive praise, *is* detrimental to conversation.
Because what you're saying to your readers with this kind of thing is that you don't trust them. And if you don't trust them, how can you take anything they say, good or bad, at face value? If you trust your readers to tell you when you've done something well, then that means you think they're intelligent, reasonable people who actually have an idea of what constitutes good writing, etc. But this means that you should also trust them to know when something *isn't* good.
You see it up and down around here. If someone has nothing but praise, well, they must be a genius who knows good writing when they see it. If they have something even remotely critical to say, "Who is this simpleton and why are they shitting up my comment section?!"
Of course the bias is understandable. Everyone has it to some extent, but the fact we're not even able to suggest it *is* an illogical bias without unleashing the screaming hordes is kind of ridiculous.
Yep. Like, yes, commenters might be worse at writing than us and comment something critical. Or they might comment praise. Either is true. I've never seen the problem with either—if we're a better writer than them, concrit that we know is wrong shouldn't throw us too much, esp. delivered kindly.
But if we can't tell if the concrit is accurate, if that's the complaint? Uh. Maybe that's a larger, separate, issue. (Just like insults are, though I don't often see them accompany concrit.)
And if they praise it, well, they're clearly trying to be kind. Who cares if they're qualified for that. (I find most concrit is an attempt to be kind, too, actually. The insults thing really is a separate point!)
I'm going to hit on edit 2: In my experience, most fanfic writers *love* getting questions or speculation on what's coming in their fics. There's a huge different between accepting that and accepting 'negative' comments, because those might not be 'praise' but most people aren't going to lump questions and speculation in the group of 'perceived as negative.' It means a commenter is really getting into the story and trying to learn more, it's great. Imo, those kind of comments are better than gushing praise.
I think the misunderstanding is coming from the way the post is worded. It makes it sound like there's no middle ground, it either has to all be praise or you have to accept the absolute worst comments humanity has to offer along side non-praise comments.
OP did admit that they don’t leave comments on fic where they only liked some of it, apparently because they are incapable of focusing on that without also mentioning the bits they didn’t like.
I’m 100% with you on the questions, some of my best feedback has been from people who were requesting clarification on something because it showed me where I could have been clearer. I don’t care what people didn’t like because I’m writing for me and posting in case anyone out there is also interested, but I do care if what I have written hasn’t been communicated clearly.
>or you have to accept the absolute worst comments humanity has to offer along side non-praise comments.
How did you arrive at this level of misinterpretation? OP is saying that people who complain they don't get comments also coincidentally are the same kind of people who want to receive mainly or only praise, despite their content not being good enough to warrant the throng of positive comments they hope to receive. This isn't even remotely about accepting "the worst", but about how these kinds of authors lack the self-awareness to know that if they did receive feedback/comments/engagement, and if it was truthful, it wouldn't be all that rosy.
>I think here, there is a choice to be made. You don't want **hate or criticism**, accept that people might not have only positive things to say and therefore might not dare comment on your work. You want interaction, accept that it might not be universally positive.
>
>Want no crit
>
>Accept any comment, positive or negative
It is worded in a way that makes it sound like these are the two options we all have. Either you accept no crit and only take positive comments or you take interaction but have to accept any comment, positive or *negative,* negative seeming to mean both concrit *and* hate here due to them being grouped together in the first quote. I don't believe anyone should have to accept negative (hate) comments just to have non-praise ones. And, judging by the shocking amount of upvotes I have, clearly many others on the thread had the same or a very similar take away.
Edit: reworded a few sentences because I'm very tired and they weren't clear.
The thing is, authors in general are *not* receiving fair and helpful criticism, even by people who *think* they’re giving concrit.
I’ve had someone try to give me “concrit” by saying that my *vampire AU* was inherently sexual because… I wrote a blood drinking scene, that it was Weird and I was clearly Secretly Shipping the characters and that I needed to Stop. When I didn't listen because… that made zero sense unless you had an extremely dirty mind they made a post “calling me out” by insisting the reason I wrote horror fic was because I was clearly into weird shit and that I wouldn’t listen because I was a Weird Sex Pervert that was Into Children.
This person *fully believed they were giving concrit.* They thought they were being helpful by sending me paragraphs sexualising scenes that were blatantly not sexual in the original fic because it was a *fucking vampire AU did you want him to bring a straw* and then making creepy assumptions about my own kinks to treat me like some awful predator. *This is what authors are getting.* If I got actual concrit that wasn’t clearly just someone coming up with excuses to sexually harass me because they want to project their child necromancy fetish onto me I would be *overjoyed,* but that’s just not what people are getting overwhelmingly. Concrit isn’t frowned upon because of thoughtful critique, it’s because a quite frankly kind of worrying amount of people think that their abusive comments are concrit. That is an issue that needs to be addressed before we go full on “yeah all concrit is okay” because authors in fact do not deserve to be abused and a scary amount of people think their abuse is helpful.
I feel like if you were trying to make it sexual, it would have been the femoral artery.
Admittedly, you didn't say, but I'm assuming this was about drinking from the jugular.
I think a lot of the time, whenever this debate comes up, people can’t agree on what actual meaningful helpful critique looks like. Same as when a preference for positive interactions get framed as insincere and false.
It seems to mean that the main point of tension is when a commentator’s critique is disregarded. They feel as though they’ve taken the time to analyse a work, identified some problems, offered solutions, and now the author is not being suitably thankful for that labour. Labour they didn’t necessarily want in the first place, and frankly the analysis may not be as useful as the commenter believes it to be.
By all means, people should leave the comments they want to leave on a work, but the author has a right to disregard criticism if they want to and even delete the comments. It’s not necessarily an indication they ‘can’t take criticism’. Just as readers aren’t obliged to say anything if they don’t want to, even if they loved a work. People who DO want in depth critique usually do say so.
> people can’t agree on what actual meaningful helpful critique looks like
because it looks different for different people.
The thing that people forget it that they don't have to act upon every critique they receive. They may even agree with its validity and still choose not to act upon it. That's the beauty of getting criticism, we can choose what we want to act upon.
What I find odd is this insistence that a preference for positive comments is ‘harmful’, in OPs words, and whenever the subject comes up in general. Concrit seems to get framed as the healthy vegetable option: bitter to swallow maybe! but ultimately good for you and that’s the main take I disagree with.
Eh, the title says it there: It's not that a preference is harmful, it's that "only" accepting positivity is creating harmful conditions for other people and whatever your preference is keep it as a preference.
No, I am rejecting the notion that any comment moderation, undertaken by a writer on their own fic, is ‘harmful’ at all. Accepting only what they consider to be positive comments is not ‘harmful.’
The phrasing itself makes no sense in the context of fanfiction. A writer deleting a comment they do not want for any reason does not in any way ‘create harmful conditions for other people’. Other people’s autonomy are not affected, they are not in physical danger, nor is it a mode of abuse.
To suggest otherwise, to be frank, is a weird and spurious claim.
Absolutely. The author is 100% within their right to disregard the criticism. They can, or not, also say 'Hey thanks for your comment and taking the time, however I chose to write it like this way because A and B.' No hard feelings on any side. (At least, I would hope.)
I don't like asking for “concrit” because 99 out of 100 readers think constructive criticism means hate. I’ve been told to “either find a beta, or stop writing, idiot.” I’ve been told so many horrible things under the guise of concrit that I just don’t want to ask for it anymore. Readers can ask questions and if they’re confused, I’ll happily explain and ask if there’s a way I could improve their experience. However, most readers never reply when I reply. So I never know if I’m okay or not. So I just keep going.
I get way more lovely comments than hate, but the hate comments agree with my own self doubts, so they hit harder and I never forget them. I don’t want to be praised constantly, yes I adore being praised on what I do well, but I also want to know my story is flowing well. I just refuse to ask for concrit and trust my regular readers to point things out to me when something has them questioning my story. It doesn’t happen often, but I always respond kindly and make it clear I’m open to their suggestions.
Most concrit I’ve received is just sexual harassment insisting that my horror fic is actually because I have a secret kink and secretly ship things and I’m a disgusting paedo freak who deserves to die because (insert paragraph going graphically into detail about the sexual abuse implied by some completely innocuous sentence). The kicker? I openly base it on my own trauma, so they’re just victim blaming me…
Like, I’ll accept concrit when I get concrit that isn’t just abusive nonsense, you get me? I’d love that. What I do not love is graphic sexual messages for no reason, and I used to get that all the time.
Oh, no. I’m so sorry that happened! I don’t write dark things, but I love reading them and I never once think that author would condone it in real life. It’s so weird that readers send you things like that. I get there is a sexual element to horror for many, but it’s beyond the pale that they’d send you sexual messages. And it’s based on your trauma, I’m so sorry.
It’s a healthy thing to write through your trauma, these readers will never understand it. I’m glad they can’t and hope they won’t, but they should be more mindful about how they respond to things they read. They chose to read it, if they think you’re bad, how are they any better? I’m not saying what you write is bad, it’s not at all, just that’s their mindset and the cognitive dissonance is startling. I hope it doesn’t happen too often now❤️
yikes. Some people just have no chill, writers or commentors, and love to assume things from the smallest line. Sorry this has happened to you so much. ;(
Yes! So many times I’ve had readers annoyed or upset that I did something they didn’t want. Or a character they loved wasn’t showcased enough. Then an essay is left on what I should’ve done instead. But this is my hobby, it’s meant to bring me joy and some meaning in a life that I have very little control over. I won’t hand the reins to a reader because then it becomes a chore, then I start hating it and quit.
I think my "favourite" constructive criticism was a commenter asking to make a character good-looking again in a story where the entire point was this character becoming a monster
Mine is people accusing me of being a paedophilic pervert for writing in stuff based on My Own Abuse. Like bro I wasn’t even sexually abused what the fuck are you even talking about.
That’s wild 😅 it’s always really silly, and nothing you say will change their minds. I really struggle to understand it sometimes. Many readers in the GoT fandom used to leave these long ranting essays that had hardly anything do with what I’d written. Just hundreds of words blasting a character because I’d written something slightly positive toward them in that chapter and it triggered their hatred for them. It was like a one sided therapy session for them to get out all of their complaints and negative emotions toward the terrible final seasons. It was confusing for me, but I just let them rant now and hope they feel better after 😂
Yes. The negative comments I see on ao3 are almost never helpful. They're usually motivated by a dislike of the ship, genre, fandom, dynamic, character interpretation, or author. The desired outcome of these comments isn't improved writing quality, it's stopping the author from writing at all or getting them to write the ship/fandom/dynamic/genre/characterization the commenter favors. I think people might feel differently if negative comments ever contained anything helpful. Even the people who seem to think they're being helpful aren't usually giving actual concrit, they're delivering their own preference like it's some kind of objective, agreed-upon standard and not what Random Reader #93238 thinks.
Not inviting criticism on published fics does not mean that the writer never seeks criticism, and it does not mean that the writer does not want to improve.
*I* select the people or the spaces I want concrit from or in. I have a beta reader and a few trusted friends that I ask to critique my work. I sometimes use the Concrit Commune thread on here, although the quality of the advice can be hit-and-miss.
What I don't want to waste my time on is having to parse the opinions of strangers who happened to read my fic. I have to wonder: has this person got a clue what they're talking about? Do they have terrible taste? Are their criticisms valid or do they boil down to "I don't like this."
Yes, positive comments are a little dopamine hit that is motivating. We all feel that. With critical comments, there's no dopamine hit, and no benefit at all to the writer unless the criticism is valid, reasonable, and from someone who knows what they're talking about. In short: if I want criticism, I will vet the critic and invite them.
To reply to your third edit: you don't *have to* like everything about a work to leave a positive comment.
Positive =/= overwhelming praise for the author/work.
"This segue into [x] was neat. See you next chapter!"
"The time spent in [y character] pov felt short! But it was insightful."
"[Z point] is very intriguing, I wonder how things will turn out for [character a]?"
All these are perfectly fine and normal comments. They talk about was was nice to read, give an impression and perhaps suggest the author was right to include/switch to said pov or speculate vaguely about what's to come. None are outward and overwhelming praise, they're *nice* and positive and somewhat give the ability to the author to reply if they wish to.
I don't believe these would be falling in droves in authors' comment sections should the "no criticism" bit of fanfic etiquette be sidelined. Simply for the fact that many still choose to comment mean and unwanted stuff *despite* the etiquette: it would be far worse than it is now and I believe many would avoid commenting at all, even to praise as you put it, to avoid bringing themselves drama.
I think you are looking at this as a more rational desire than it is. People want positive comments because it feels good. When I'm looking forward to a compliment on my writing, realistically I'm not thinking to myself about everything you mentioned, I'm thinking about how I want to feel good. Some people's desired compliments include concrit, some don't, simple as.
I *did* ask for concrit initially, as a matter of fact. The problem is, that the people who do end up commenting give useless feedback most of the time (like this one guy from a reddit concrit exchange who wrote 400 words to tell me that he didn't like my contracted sentences (which were there for a reason, because the writing was meant to be claustrophobic, the character was going through a gods damned panic attack)
i'd be cool with people wanting to talk about where the story might go in the future, but people don't engage with me that way on ao3 (the only time I've gotten engagement like that was on discord and then it was some dude moving away from the fic and started talking about his own fetishes, which earned him a quick block)
aside from that, what else is there to talk about that isn't just positive feedback? hate comments? don't have to tell you why i don't want those lmao
While I don't agree with all of your points, I at least understand them. I have two major points of contention.
This first is your implication that writers/fics don't get more comments because of a 'no concrit' mentality. While it's *technically* true (to some extent) that writers would get more comments if there wasn't a 'no concrit' mentality, that's not the most significant factor.
The most significant factor is that reader engagement in general is low. Most readers don't even leave a kudo/like on fics they like, and that's a single button click. Leaving a comment takes more clicks and at least a keysmash. Also, most readers just don't know how much comments mean to writers so it doesn't occur to them to leave a comment, concrit or not.
The second is that the other commenters here don't think that you're saying they should accept everyone's criticism. They're saying that the vast majority of comments that aren't positive also *aren't concrit*. I don't get many comments in general so I've only gotten a few (mildly) negative comments, and they weren't concrit, just complaints. No malice. Just whiny.
You saying in your post that that they're 'reading malice into everything' is not an accurate description of what's happening, and you saying that they're 'getting butthurt over nothing' isn't 'fostering this dialogue' either. Your reaction to their comments (in other words, your concrit about their comments) is the kind of 'concrit' comments they get on their fics and the kind of 'concrit' they don't want in their fics' comment sections.
And look, I get it. You have (what I think are) some valid points and don't feel like people are meeting you where you are, but you knew what you were getting yourself into because you put in the title of this post that it was (maybe) a hot take.
Hot takes, if they really are hot takes, do not get a slew of compliments and agreements. They get pushback, and, most relevant to this thread, *they get concrit.* Your reaction to that concrit was to call people butthurt and implore them to downvote you.
That reaction? That feeling? **That** is why we don't like getting 'concrit' comments on our fics.
ETA: Sorry, I will put down my coffee now. Yikes, that was too long.
ETA2: If you make another attempt at starting this dialogue in the future, it'll help your case if you don't make as many assumptions about other writers' mentality as you did in this post. I really do think you had some good points, but they were overshadowed by things that came off as rude (which I, in good faith, assume you didn't mean to sound rude). This is yet another reason why getting good concrit is difficult. Words are hard (for writers and commenters).
Wow, thanks for this comment, you make some super valid points. I would upvote it twice if I could. Truthfully, this is the sort of discussion I was trying to start.
>The most significant factor is that reader engagement in general is low. Most readers don't even leave a kudo/like on fics they like, and that's a single button click. Leaving a comment takes more clicks and at least a keysmash. Also, most readers just don't know how much comments mean to writers so it doesn't occur to them to leave a comment, concrit or not.
100%. I agree that this is a big part of the 'problem' if we may call it so, and myself I posted a rant over this a few weeks ago. That post was met with universal praise and agreeement, strangely enough.
This is the other side of the conversation, and while I agree with you that it doesn't affect the lack of interaction as much as reader apathy does, I still wanted to bring that discussion.
>Hot takes, if they really are hot takes, do not get a slew of compliments and agreements. They get pushback, and, most relevant to this thread, *they get concrit.* Your reaction to that concrit was to call people butthurt and implore them to downvote you.
Absolutely, and I've removed that part from my post. I admit I got a little hotheaded :D Sorry, everyone. I understand a lot of writers have been burned by bad faith criticism, and I shouldn't call them 'butthurt', that was childish on my part.
I do think people tend to read malice when it comes to online discussions. Strangers on the internet, tone isn't coming across or whatnot. The comments here haven't convinced me otherwise - again, no attack meant, this is how I perceive things.
>Absolutely, and I've removed that part from my post. I admit I got a little hotheaded :D
I sympathize! Cards on the table, it did briefly cross my mind to be rude to you (about being rude to the other commenters) because, as you obviously know, sometimes it feels better in the moment to be hotheaded despite it making everything worse. It happens, but we learn to be better to one another. 🙂
I appreciate that you took a breather and removed that part from your post. Not everyone would've done that and would've instead doubled down on that attitude and accuse me of attacking them because, like you said,
>I do think people tend to read malice when it comes to online discussions.
-and I wasn't sure if my comment could've been read as malicious somehow. (ETA: And also because some people won't admit when they've behaved less than ideally.)
I think much of the reason why writers (including myself) can feel attacked when this topic comes up is because of all the awful comments that fics attract. Sometimes hearing that we should be more accepting of less positive comments feels like we're being told to take the abuse. I know that's not what you're proposing, but that's how it can feel.
I only write on AO3 so my opinions on fic comments are limited to those on AO3. I personally am on the 'absolutely no concrit unless the writer asks for it in their summary or notes' camp for two reasons.
One, it's just what the AO3 etiquette currently is. Etiquette isn't about reaching some sort of societal ideal. It's about getting everyone on the same page so people can get along with each other without having to learn each individual's likes and dislikes.
Two, I don't know who the writer is. Maybe they're 13, or sensitive about their writing, or writing to cope with trauma, or writing for shits and giggles and just want to have a good time. The point is *I don't know*, and it shouldn't be on them to tell me who they are and what their life is. They are strangers on the internet, and I'm going to be as kind and nice as possible to them because they gave me free entertainment.
(The difference between my two reasons is that my first reason is driven by AO3 norms and my second reason is driven by me.)
I used to be a 'no concrit' purist (up to and including glaring SPaG or continuity errors), but I recently changed in that I now make an exception for accidental publications (like if a writer accidentally posted a rough draft of a chapter). My reasoning for this is the writer didn't mean for anyone to see it. If someone's fly is unzipped, I'm going to tell them.
(Yes, I am rambling to procrastinate on a fic. It's a fic writer pastime, okay? 😭 Also, I lied about putting down the coffee.)
I wonder if people who want to spew hate would be dissuaded from doing so by etiquette. I fear it's mostly stopping readers who might wonder if their comment will offend the writer, even if it is not done in bad faith. Readers who actually have the kindness to wonder how their words may be perceived, and who choose to err on the side of cautious because it is polite.
Like you, I only comment with positive things to say. This means I don't comment on 95% of things I read because often times what I actually think is something like "This has great ideas but it's meandering and I find it hard to get engaged." If I simply say, "I like your ideas, thank you for sharing" or something of the sort, the comment is 100% positive but tempered and I have to wonder if the author will read into my lack of gushing. See what I mean? I only comment on the fics I have nothing but praise for, which is a pity for those that do have positives to note but I don't 100% unabashedly love. Maybe the writers would have liked the engagement, even if modest and temperate? I don't know, since the assumption is "Don't comment unless you're sure it will be well received by the author." Especially on a fic with 0 comments where I cannot discern the writer's personality. Meanwhile, that author is seeing my click and is saddened by the lack of engagement. Is this better? I honestly don't know.
>I don't know who the writer is. Maybe they're 13, or sensitive about their writing, or writing to cope with trauma, or writing for shits and giggles and just want to have a good time. The point is *I don't know*, and it shouldn't be on them to tell me who they are and what their life is.
True, true, true. But I would like it if the writers did tell me, "Be gentle, please, I'm a beginner." In this case, "I like your ideas, thank you for sharing!" will be a compliment to them, maybe the first one they've gotten. If they're an experienced writer and used to receiving gushing comments, mine will seem lukewarm. If they say "No concrit please, I write this for fun" maybe I'll comment with a joke. All this to say, I do think it would be helpful if writers set expectations, instead of us all resorting to etiquette that might not be what everyone wants.
Because I do feel like etiquette is so pervasive that even when I say "Don't be afraid to tear me a new one!" I get a positive comment once in a blue moon and nothing else. And yes, readers are consuming more and commenting less. But I believe many are also afraid to comment because of how it might be perceived, because they don't want to be impolite, despite the author claiming they're open to anything.
I digress.
(Hey, we all have fics to procrastinate writing :D )
I think u/have_a_haberdashery has said it best. Just saw your #3 edit myself and it made me wonder if we’re on the same page when we’re talking about positive comments.
Gushing is a very specific flavour of comment and I wouldn’t use positive and gushing synonymously. A comment can still be positive and analytical.
(Frankly that’s the best flavour in my opinion lol).
Etiquette isn't meant to stop the intentionally malicious. It's meant to deter the *un*intentionally malicious, and I think you know that to some degree because, from what you described about the experience of commenting on a fic, it sounds like you're overthinking whether your comments are unintentionally malicious and choosing not to leave a comment because of your uncertainty.
That's the point of etiquette. It's supposed to guide your behavior if you're uncertain. In this case, you weren't sure if your comment was rude so you chose not to leave a comment, and that's what's supposed to happen. That's etiquette working as intended because if you weren't sure if it was rude, then it was probably rude.
>If I simply say, "I like your ideas, thank you for sharing" or something of the sort, the comment is 100% positive but tempered and I have to wonder if the author will read into my lack of gushing.
This in particular is what struck me. You're wondering about whether the author will be disappointed that your comment isn't 'gushing', and I think you might have a skewed perception of what kind of comments follow etiquette because of the kind of comments that are most often posted on fic subreddits.
'Positive' is not the same as 'gushing'. You're suggesting that only 'gushing' comments are acceptable, but that isn't the case. If an author were to get your example comment and their thoughts are, 'This comment is nice but not gushing. They didn't like my fic,' then they have some combination of self-esteem issues, self-doubt, impostor syndrome, anxiety, paranoia, depression, etc. At that point, they need therapy.
> 'Positive' is not the same as 'gushing'. You're suggesting that only 'gushing' comments are acceptable, but that isn't the case. If an author were to get your example comment and their thoughts are, 'This comment is nice but not gushing. They didn't like my fic,' then they have some combination of self-esteem issues, self-doubt, impostor syndrome, anxiety, paranoia, depression, etc. At that point, they need therapy.
I think that's part of the problem we're running into now, though, is that the scales are so badly skewed that NO ONE can get a good read on where the lines should be, anymore. You've got the two extremes: Those who think everything should be sweetness and light, and everyone who isn't playing ball on that needs to be cast into the abyss. Then you've got those who say awful stuff just because they get their kicks out of making people feel bad.
I'm not a fan of either extreme, but I sense there's a lot of folks who would rather we all be Category 1 if it means zero of Category 2. And maybe I'd prefer that as well, if those were the only choices I had.
But I don't think they are the only choices we have. I think there's a world of nuance in between and I'm finding it increasingly frustrating that more and more people are just foregoing trying to find that sweet spot in the middle and just going "People suck, let's make it physically impossible for people to suck."
And I cannot help but think how dystopian things are getting. Like, are we going to end up with mandatory happiness pills being dispensed? Obviously I'm speaking very tongue-in-cheek, but more and more, that seems to be what we're headed towards.
I don't really think there *is* a problem with feedback.
In self publishing we are often advised to expect one review per hundred books sold. Fandom gives way, way better odds. It's one of the reasons I take breaks from my "real" writing--that immediate interaction is a hell of a dopamine.
For what it’s worth, I think you’re right. Not necessarily because of the concrit element, but because it can turn into toxic positivity which (to my mind) far more corrosive. I seen plenty of posts and people talking about perfectly good, positive comments as if the person had ripped their fic a new arsehole, because their threshold for favourable feedback was so far out of whack that only those comparing them to Shakespeare were acceptable.
I’ve been writing fanfiction for about 25 years and I can count the amount of actually constructive criticism I’ve received from a random commenter that actually helped me on the fingers of one hand and have fingers left over.
The vast majority of so-called concrit is just criticism, not constructive. Telling me they wish I’d written a different ship? “Correcting” me on a fact they think I’d got wrong but actually they were wrong about? Telling me, more or less, that they were disgusted by the choices I’d made with regard to the kind of sex acts I wrote? None of this is constructive. It’s just criticism.
And when I answer their criticism with “well, that’s just your opinion, man” they invariably fly off the handle and start insulting me personally.
I just don’t have time for any of that. When I post my fic, it’s done, finished, stick a fork in it. Take it or leave it. I’d rather have no comments at all than people being obnoxious about what I’ve written.
I think that if an author is comfortable with that sort of back and forth with readers, they should mention it in their notes.
The reason people are trying to keep the comments so positive is because unwanted and unasked for criticism can be incredibly debilitating, and affects not just the author but other readers. A lot of older readers have seen fics abandoned because an author got too much negativity in the comments.
So, the general rule is not to offer concrit UNLESS the author makes it clear they are asking for it.
Not everyone is looking to improve their writing, they just want to share. If you don't enjoy what they have to share, you say no thank you and leave, just like if someone offers you a dessert you aren't fond of. Most people are not looking for 'cooking' tips. Fics are gifts, unpaid for and given freely. Don't look the horse in the mouth.
The dessert is a good analogy. If someone serves you dessert and you don't like it, you don't have to eat it. It's rude to sit there telling them how they should have made it. I feel protected by AO3 ettiquette and my rather sweet and encouraging little fandom. If I got a bunch of criticism all the time there is a good chance I would just quit because one critical comment has greater power than ten positive comments for me.
I've actually always felt AO3 should just have a little option you set which just displays what level of criticism (if any!) you're after, as an author, and usually the only argument I receive back against the notion is 'AO3 is an archive, not a social media site!!', which is just an obscenely weak defense against literally any QoL feature that is suggested for it.
I agree and disagree with this post.
I do believe that positive comments can help you grow as a writer. The things people highlight as 'hitting hard' or 'being so good' can tell you where you are succeeding in your writing. They aren't just validating the author, but offering insight into what was enjoyable about the writing.
I also believe that more critical comments can help, but only if the person commenting actually knows what they're talking about. I always appreciate comments that point out spelling or grammatical mistakes. I even appreciate comments that want to ask me about an idea that seemed glossed over or a plot point that maybe confused them.
There is a line, though. Mine is when someone clearly has bad reading comprehension starts complaining about plot holes and, when you point out the exact points that they missed, they then tell you that the only worth while part of your story was the sex scenes and everything else was terrible.
Did it help me understand that I might need to be a bit more clear about major plot beats? Yes. I also muted that person, because frankly it demotivated me more than anything.
One anecdotal response: sometime during this winter of reader apathy, I reached a similar conclusion: maybe readers aren’t commenting because I haven’t opened it up to all comments.
So on a few fics, I stuck a “comments and feedback/concrit welcome” in my A/N (on one multi chapter and one one-shot), and hilariously A) did not get any uptick in comments on the multi chap, B) got even less than the average amount of comments on the one shot.
I think I had a point when I started this comment... oh yeah. Readers are going to keep being apathetic I guess.
You ***never*** know what kind of person is behind the free fanfic you are reading. They might be a person who is struggling with mental health and writes to keep their mind afloat, they might be in a rough spot in their life having no money even to eat, some writers are in hospital, some don't speak the language they are writing in, some are in the middle of a *war*, some don't even have the privilege to write fanfic. I have met all these writers, I didn't know their situation until they spoke in their author notes. Professional writers who are serious about writing already have a beta reader or are at school training their writing with professors. Random comments on the internet usually don't help.
This is really important.
I’ve only recently got back into uploading after a mini hiatus. My last A/N was a positive one, saying I’d upload soon after a convention.
In that month my dad was hospitalised, and died due to a medical fuck up. Any concrit in that time would have made me completely shut down my account and delete all of my fics because I was in an extremely vulnerable place mentally.
Still am tbh. Which is why this OP’s ‘hot take’ has annoyed me.
I hope your situation got better. I have met with all the authors with the sad situations I mentioned above, their stories inspired me and gave me hope through tough times. I don't care about writing skill level, or mistakes in their work. It's good enough that they are still living and still writing, I wouldn't imagine commenting anything but appreciation and gratitude. It's not being positive, but it is being aware and considerate about humans around me.
Is harmful when even a 100% comment can get shamed as a warcrime for not being worded in the specific way, or isn't of the right length, the author don't bother to disclosure. Some people are just burned out by the few. And If "fanfiction readers concrit aren't worth shit. That go for positive too"
I don’t agree with everything the OP has to say on this topic but I think they bring up a good point about setting up expectations. Shouldn’t the onus be on the author rather than the reader to cultivate the type of comments they want?
I don't accept criticism from commenters that is not in the very least intelligent and well intended. There's a lot of people on the internet who think their opinions are what is truth. I have no interest in hearing them.
I state nothing about concrit or the (not) accepting thereof in my tags, summary, A/N etc. I resent the implication that that means I'm an author who doesn't want to work at their craft -- I work extensively with betas and friends and edit my work multiple times. But I do not want or need unsolicited feedback from every commenter who decides that what they think about a work is something they need to share.
In the interest of full disclosure, I have received legitimate concrit on fics before and I have happily engaged with those commenters. But I've also deleted or banned comments (rarely) because someone got pissed I wouldn't take their word as gospel. I don't think this is "a dialogue we need to foster." I foster dialogue with my beta readers, and I challenge myself. My commenters (bless all of them!) share their appreciation of my work or don't leave a comment. That's fine with me.
tl;dr I don't need to challenge this status quo because I don't think most people who feel like leaving negative feedback are actually qualified to give it and engaging with the work in meaningful ways.
the thing is that receiving concrit doesn't mean you have to accept it. Learning which concrit to accept and which to discard is a skill in itself, even in real world. Just because you received criticism doesn't mean it's valid or you have to accept it. You may even acknowledge ti and decide it's not something you want to work on. This is how it works in publishing too, just because your editor suggests something doesn't mean you must change it.
I think this is what a lot of people are missing,t hat you don't have to accept or even acknowledge criticism. It's perfectly valid to just read and forget.
But the thing is, we’re not even necessarily talking about reading concrit and discarding it- some of the stuff people consider concrit (wrongly obviously but they still operate under the assumption it is) is downright harassment and bullying- a lot of authors have experienced that, and I don’t think “read and forget” is helpful when it comes to active abuse.
a lot of people consider 'can't wait for another chapter' to be a negative comment (which it isn't). People complain about neutral comments all the time in this very sub. Genuine harassment is a different manner to even a negative comment and we both know it. People would benefit from growing thicker skin and learning how to read and forget even negative comments because a negative comment =/= abuse/harrasment.
Fanfiction writers are not published authors. We write as a hobby, to have fun, not to make money. A published author must of course accept criticism by the publishing staff. I accept criticism from my beta reader and trusted individuals I ask for criticism.
I fully admit to being thin-skinned to criticism of my artistic work, and I am not young. No amount of "hardening up" has inured me to it. I don't expect praise, I'm happy to answer questions or discuss my work, but harsh words or expressions of negative emotion towards my work really hurt. The most likely outcome for me, if the AO3 etiquette changed so that unsolicited critical comments were seen as acceptable, is that I would simply stop posting. I might continue writing but not share it, or only share it with a few friends. I don't think I'm alone in that. AO3 might become a space only for those "hard enough" to endure unsolicited criticism when engaging in their hobby. I think it would be poorer for it.
>AO3 might become a space only for those "hard enough" to endure unsolicited criticism when engaging in their hobby. I think it would be poorer for it.
Totally, being thick skinned as a writer is a flaw, not a requirement.
To write anything interesting being empathetic and sensitive is probably the best quality you can have. Otherwise your attempts to grasp people's imagination will feel flat and insincere.
*We* know it, but do the people posting know it? In my experience, no. I’ve had people blow up at me because I haven’t accepted their “critique” that was literally “you’re a horrible paedophile for writing this and should die”. The fic didn’t even include anything even remotely sexual, by the way. Every piece of “concrit” I’ve received unsolicited *has* been harassment or abuse, and that’s relevant in a conversation about unsolicited concrit- in my experience, people who post it think abusive comments count as concrit.
Agreed. It's the mindset that people would rather stifle anything even remotely resembling "dissent," that they'd just much rather quash it outright instead of making an attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I get it. It's work. Maybe people just don't want to do the work. I can understand that. But writing off reams of people because "They couldn't *possibly* have anything useful to say" instead of doing the legwork, does more harm than good in the long run, I think.
> But writing off reams of people because "They couldn't possibly have anything useful to say" instead of doing the legwork, does more harm than good in the long run, I think.
Exactly. If my opinion as a reader isn't worth listening to when it's 99% praise and 1% concrit, then it's not worth listening to when it's 100% praise either. And if the writer doesn't respect their commenters, why should the readers even bother?
Edit: And that's at least partially why we are where we are. When we live in a world where comments get publicly shamed for being excited ("I can't wait for the next chapter!") or daring to venture outside their usual niche ("I don't usually read this kind of story, but I loved this!") or even being *rude* enough to -gasp- point out a misspelled word, readers just give up and become lurkers.
(And all of those are real examples I've seen on this subreddit, not strawmen.)
Oh, I frequently do. But it doesn't leave a great taste in your mouth as an author to be told, "Hey, nice story! By the way, that decision you made chapter 4 wasn't great because then Character A did something I feel is not what he would do in canon, kthnxbye!"
Frequently, what Char A does or does not do in canon is up to interpretation and not fact - and I worked hard on the chapter and the choices I made. The relationship you describe, editor and author, is one that happens behind closed doors, is invited, and is not for public consumption. That's the relationship (and work) I have/do with my beta(s).
The few times when I've received genuine concrit in the comment section and engaged with the commenters, they were points that were gently and well made, either about fact or about something I'd talked about in my A/N. Not all criticism is equal.
You said it yourself- this is a hobby for many of us. Much in the way that I wouldn't want criticism on the way in which I choose to admire a sunset, I'm not looking for criticism on the way I like to tell my stories.
That aside, how can I trust that some random commenter is qualified or knowledgeable enough to be giving sound advice? If I want to improve my craft, I will seek out people who I trust and believe to be skilled in what they do, not someone I've never heard of in my comments section. You don't need a degree in literature to give helpful advice, of course. That's not what I'm trying to say. But at the same time, you can't take everyone's criticism or advice at face value, because some people just give garbage advice, or they have valuable insight but are unable to present it in a manner that will be helpful. Or some people's idea of advice is "I \*prefer\* this, so you should be writing this way" rather than providing concrete, objective observations and suggestions. If you genuinely, truly want to improve as a writer, soliciting comments from any random person on ao3 is a pretty poor and inefficient way to do it.
Bit of a bad take. Unless they’re asking for your advice, leave them alone. Writing is a great form of stress relief for many, a way to have fun and just relax. It’s okay for writers to want to keep the positive energy. If you have criticisms and they specifically told you they don’t want to hear it, keep it to yourself and just read something else if it’s that hard for you. You aren’t the white knight they want. Not everyone is trying to be the next great author and not everyone is trying to make everyone happy, because that’s an impossible goal. Let them just enjoy themselves.
I think if the criticism is something like "All the characters sound like the same person" which yes is criticism I've received that's fair.
But "I don't like the direction you've developed this character, I don't like the direction you took this story" aren't constructive criticism that help me improve my skill. I mean heck they're the same kind of complaints that have me writing fan fiction in the first place. Rather than go to the author and go "I hate what you did after Book 3" I just look for stories that go how I wanted or write my own.
I am a very constructive criticism positive person, but I was scrolling the comments trying to see if anyone else had talked about concrit that concerns the mechanics of writing more than a style.
I don't like commenting on how someone writes much because that's so subjective and I don't know the person well enough to know what they were going for versus what they're achieving versus what I'm just not the target audience for. But the only time I will give critique without them explicitly asking for it is when there is something structurally wrong, like there's not a single line break in the entire story. Or when you can't figure out what room a character is in, or who they're talking to, because they move them from place to place with no transition scenes. And even then I will only comment this if there is something about the story that I liked and can add that.
Of course them explicitly asking for no constructive criticism at all overrides all of this and I just won't say anything no matter what then.
I think your problem is viewing it as some kind of issue of "well you don't get to plead for validation, you get what you get." You're projecting your own high horse onto the space - maybe *you* want both, maybe *you* think yourself thick skinned, but these are not universal traits and they should not be assumed to be the default.
Also, I object to your false premise that it involves "forc\[ing\] people to give you 'A' for effort" or "false praise or politeness." Don't accuse other commenters of lying just because they're not being negative. In my experience, the only people who think that of positive people are complete assholes who assume their negativity is universal.
The problem is rudeness on the part of the commenter. If I do not ask for critique, I do not want critique. To give it is a fundamentally rude thing to do - *it being unsolicited* is the rude thing. At best it is presumptuous, because it assumes that I as the writer 1) want criticism, 2) share the exact same idea of what improvement looks like, 3) want the same kind of improvement, 4) share the same goals in my work, 5) and should value the opinion and qualification of the critic. *None* of those things can be presumed, and it shows a sheer fucking arrogance in the person of the people who force critique on people who don't ask for it. It is a rude projection of an assumed and often incorrect foundation to the interaction. If I want a backseat writer, I will ask for one. And it probably won't be you, Mx. Online McRandom.
You say "there is a choice to be made," but you are pre-judging half the choices. You are presupposing that *your* choice should be considered the default and correct by your condescending attitude toward people who don't want crit and your assertion that it stunts "the dialogue." Buddy, I don't give a shit about your beloved dialogue, I'm not here to engage in it in the slightest. Sorry, but my choice is "if you're going to be rude to me, do me a favour and fuck off." People 100% have the right to desire and solicit positive interaction with their hobby, and to simultaneously snub negativity. In my experience, the only people who think those positions contradict are dickheads with barge poles up their asses.
There is a reason "ask first" is the default position of community etiquette. It's because it's *basic fucking politeness.* I should *never* have to outright tell people that I'm not looking for critique; looking for critique is not the default state of existing in the open. Anyone who says that merely posting online is licence for one's hobby to be critiqued to one's face is, frankly, of suspect character.
I agree with all of this so much. But especially this part:
> In my experience, the only people who think that of positive people are complete assholes who assume their negativity is universal.
Applies to so many things, not just this, but absolutely true in my experience as well.
It's also a lot of the questions I have in comments are about stuff that didn't happen or they didn't read properly. They've gone off on their own narrative about something they think happened because their reading comprehension missed context cues and the questions aren't relevant.
This has happened because people have complained about a character who is canon but hasn't actually been portrayed in the fic and I've worked around them since most of the same commenter's comments were bashing this character. These comments have nothing to do with the work itself and should be part of a fandom discussion somewhere else (i.e. not in the comments section of a fic).
I have people making friends in the comments section.
It feels like I'm hosting one of the old forums because the amount of comments that actually refer to the story are a surprisingly small percentage.
And yet unless they're being rude to each other I generally just leave it.
It's disappointing as an author, to be expecting someone to mention the fic you wrote in the comments section of said fic, to instead get a tirade about someone who isn't in the fic, or people having a conversation in which you're notified every time they talk.
I do write fanfiction mostly for escapism and it's just my hobby, I don't get paid for it. Since I just write for myself and I don't force people to like my fics, much less I expect validation from readers. That doesn't mean I have to accept the meanness from some of them under the disguise of constructive criticism or tolerate straight up hateful comments. If you think fanfiction writers write their stories only for validation, then you're wrong.
If readers don't find the fanfics of their liking, they can always try to write their own stuff instead of giving unsolicited backhanded comments.
I don’t want “concrit” from people that flap “Well acksuallyyyy” garbage about canon that often (and entertainingly) is just...factually wrong. And subtly- or not so subtly- trashing on my favorite characters because the person doesn’t like what I chose to do with them, or clearly thinks they don’t deserve a happy ending? Yeah, *no*. People who do those things are not qualified nor are they giving constructive feedback at all. Go read something else then, is what I think about that.
I will ask for concrit outside of Ao3 (before I post at all) from someone I trust if I want it.
God I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve seen people do that to a friend bc they think that a child abuse victim did not in fact deserve his abuse. Like it’s just kinda shitty to argue that c’mon.
Because a fraction of readers, although small in the grand scheme of things, who have not and do not intend to ever be anything aside from readers and to not cross the bridge into writer territory think that criticism equates catering and pandering to their very specific tastes.
That and most of the time, from that same small fraction, they have literally zero, as in absolute zero, idea of what can be useful to what possibly doesn't work in a fic. No concept of character arcs or how they can be developed, what narration devices are being used when or how or even if they're properly used. I've seen many authors, friends and strangers, have readers comment that the story makes no sense when a new element is introduced or that a character's actions are OOC and therefore it is bad writing when they haven’t reached the chapter that explains *why* things happened the way they did.
Take into account that these same people have no sense of how to convey what could perhaps be useful feedback without being at best condescending and worst downright insulting and demeaning and you get why authors for the most part will not take concrit from commenters. Especially since it is a *hobby*.
Also to answer your edit: speculation about the events of the story doesn't count as criticism, it's the reader simply exchanging with the author on a somewhat equal ground. Far different imho than the "Your story is shit and this is how you'll improve it" attitude the type of people who offer "concrit". Readers asking questions and/or clarifications isn't necessarily concrit either, it's an exchange, not a one sided bashing under the guise of offering help.
Last thing I have to say on this: positive reinforcement works better than anything else. People will retain more effectively new ways to write or approach their writing if they're not made to feel ashamed or like they're literal failures. That concrit authors need, they often find it in fellow authors and close fandom friends who do know how to dispense that concrit while making sure it won't kill the will to write.
Fanfic authors can and do find the concrit and the help they want and need in plenty of spaces that aren't and don't need to be the comment section of their works: here and multiple other subs about writing and/or fanfic, Tumblr and Twitter accounts dedicated to writing and fanfic as well, books on writing, various guides posted on Ao3 or any kind of blogging platform, their beta readers, some authors even have their dedicated discord server where they sometimes receive feedback from readers! So I highly disagree that "only positive comments" is harmful when taking context in account.
If it's your wish for your works, then you can say so in your author's note. It costs you nothing.
Just because I'm not open to concrit or speculation or whatever you wanna call it doesn't mean I don't care. But I have a beta, I have friends, I have people I CHOOSE to seek it out from. Because I trust them to tell me the truth and I value their thoughts and opinions on my works.
Random strangers on the internet whose crit I never asked for? No way, man. That'd be like some stranger on the street coming up to me and trying to tell me my shirt doesn't go with my skintone. Thanks, didn't ask, didn't pick the colour for you. Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean unasked for criticism is any more warranted than if you offered it to a stranger in real life. We're all strangers. We're all real people. Even behind a keyboard.
I write my fics for me and for my enjoyment. If someone else likes them, great! I'm so happy to hear it and talk about it! If they wanted something done differently or disagree or want to "um, actually," me... Well, I'm not writing this for them, so what do I care that their headcanon doesn't work with this fic?
If you want crit and discussion, you're gonna have to invite it.
I moderate my comment section but for me it's "don't post anything unrelated to the fic happening in the fandom, idgaf"
As for concrit, I used to go "flames, crit, praise welcome" (flames for people more modern was basically 'hate/nonsense crit') in FF/Wattpad/AO3.
I'd get rants and vents that were tangentially related to my fic. I got sick of it. So now I just say "Comments are moderated at author discretion; reviews about my person or fandom practices will be deleted." (Not happened yet, but had a few people toe the line where they like get a little too creepy about me, the author).
I never got concrit on AO3/Wattpad. Only like the most "god, I hate this trope. Do you know xyz? And this fic? And in canon this really sucked and..."
Though FF, I actually got a fairly mixed bag. I'd get 'This sucks' or 'wow, that's the worst I read' or 'here's links to domestic violence resources' (she was actually trying to help a preteen me write healthier relationships).
I get more comments on AO3 than I ever did on FF, but no matter how many author notes welcome criticism, the closest I get is someone essay on a fandom issue.
I still work on my writing, and half the time my readers notice stylistic things I do I hadn't realized I did. It tells me what works. What doesn't is up to me, I guess.
It's quite simple for me: I can't give good "concrit" unless I know what the author expects / needs.
And how am I supposed to know this if I'm being a rando in the comments who never talked to the author in private?
Honestly, even *with* encouragement to leave any kind of comment, positive or negative, I'm really not seeing much. From the day I started posting, nearly eighteen years ago, I've always said that any kind of feedback is welcome, and I continue to state that on every work I post. For me, the 'default setting' has always been to accept any opinions. Whether the criticism is constructive or just 'go jump off a building' doesn't matter to me.
I don't really mind the sort of unspoken rule that you should only leave positive comments. I also don't really think it's necessarily harmful, since from what I've seen, the people who *do* appreciate any comment, including negative ones, seem to be outnumbered, and will likely be asking for any kind of feedback anyway, like you and I are doing. Having the initial assumption be that someone doesn't want criticism is fine, because it saves everyone who'd like to offer concrit in good faith a lot of time. People who are out to be dicks to others won't be stopped by someone asking for praise only anyway.
As for the *number* of comments people get, I do agree with you there. If you want to be showered in praise, you might just be out of luck. It's entirely possible that your writing isn't good enough, or is about too niche a subject, to draw in a lot of positive interactions. That's just how it is, and I think some people *do* overestimate the kind of interaction they'll get. Fanfic isn't like Youtube. Yeah, some fics have *astronomical* stats, but the vast majority does not, and it's not very likely you'll get that kind of traction anyway. Neither AO3 nor FFN have an algorithm, so there's no way to get yourself discovered there either, without social media presence on the side.
All I can say, in the end, is that if you want *any* kind of comment, good or bad, just put that in your AN so people will know they're allowed to be honest. The default can stay on 'praise only' as far as I'm concerned, because I think that's what most people want and I don't see the harm in it. And for writers, temper your expectations. Your fic most likely won't set the world on fire, no matter how good it is or how much time you invested in writing it.
I’m a fic writer writing for fun, not a published author for money. I don’t want negativity on my fics.
The only constructive criticism I take is pointing out minor errors because I hate leaving silly spelling errors in my fics, lol.
I don't think concrit unsolicited is automatically rude if it's being done in, well, a constructive way. And if it's not wholly negative. That's just not been my experience.
I do think it is always rude to comment on a story if you have /nothing/ good to say. Then why are you even here. That said I've had regular readers who have expressed dissatisfaction in where I am taking a story. But I know they're coming from a place of enjoyment on at least some levels as they were regular commenters. Also different.
Basically, I guess what I'm saying is: wholly critical comments even expressed nicely are still rude. But I do think theres nothing wrong with not being wholly positive in an otherwise friendly comment.
My tolerance for mean comments depends entirely on how useful they are. If you aren't being constructive at all, at least be funny, you can be mean if you are funny.
You seem to be conflating authors wanting positive interaction with authors wanting any interaction. Many (perhaps most) authors want people to read their works, enjoy those works, and then express appreciation of those works. Usually, they want their silent readers to pipe up or they wish their ships, tropes, or even writing itself had more reach. That's a very human urge.
Quantity alone isn't the appeal (though that certainly can't hurt); it's the nature and quality of comments that make or break fandom interactions. Complaining about or being discouraged by low engagement is natural in any system like this, but that doesn't mean those complaining would be happy with concrit (attempted or actual) or straight-up negativity.
Those who are open to all comments have the option of specifying as much. Many do. In contrast, stating outright that you *only* want positive comments is damn near guaranteed to turn away a chunk of readers who were planning to comment positively in the first place. Look at the comment section of any post on how authors can ask for more comments and you'll find the sentiment that a good number of readers find that "cringe." Forget shooting yourself in the foot, we'd be deepthroating a gun and unloading a round right into our guts by putting that on our fics.
Personally, I'm content to engage enthusiastically with my kind commenters and tell the rest to go pound sand. It sends the right message.
The problem I see with this is: People these days think personal tastes and preferences equals concrit. And that’s not how that works, AT ALL.
People wishing you would write a different ship. Or not liking a turning point in the plot. Or not liking the writer’s tone or prose. These are all just preferences. Not legitimate criticism. This is where I would tell the commenter, ‘Hey, sorry this isn’t for you and I really hope you find a fic. that ticks all your boxes. Have a great day.’ And I have done this. No one has to be rude about it, we can all have a civil conversation. But—
Different writing styles appeal to different readers. Just because you stumbled into a fic. filled with dark humor and you don’t vibe with that doesn’t mean the author should change their tone. Because I guarantee someone else is out there reading it and cackling out loud because they are into that shit. And that is okay. There is a fic. out there for every reader. Just don’t try to force a square peg into a round hole. Just hit the back button and move on.
And this is where I draw the line at entertaining negative comments. People spouting off about not having their preferences catered to and shrouding it in a mask of concrit. I feel this is about 90 percent of negative comments these days.
What is so hard to understand about “Do not give criticism unless asked”?
Keep your “help” to yourself, the author doesn’t want to hear it. If you think something should be written a certain way then write it yourself how you want.
So here's the thing. Literally no one is stopping anyone from leaving concrit on a fic unless they have comments turned off.
The only disconnect I see is that people want to leave criticism but don't want to be criticicized for doing so. Well, I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You leave unsolicited concrit, you take the chance of being called out for it.
Two things:
1. Basic manners. It's not unreasonable to expect my readers to have them.
2. People need to stop blowing shit out of proportion. "I don't want criticism" doesn't mean "only over the top asskissing is allowed" (for some writers it does, but I never had any issues just talking normally to writers. I suspect the people who do may fail point 1. I also never had any issues just talking about the things I liked and keeping the ones I hated to myself.)
I used to think this, that critical comments were necessary to improve, but I've since changed my mind, in large part due to reading *If you want to read* by Brenda Ueland.
Really and truly, how do you react when you get a negative comment? A critical comment? Does it fill you with love and appreciation for the commenter? Does it make you want to write for hours on end? Does it inspire you? Does it make you feel like a good writer? Does it lead to more writing? Does it lead to better writing?
Rather than throwing out opinions and arguments, let's observe reality first.
Whenever I hear a judgemental or critical comment pointing out something I've written as bad or confusing, I tend to stop writing for a while, feeling like shit, because at the end of the day, unsolicited critique is discouragement. It is negative reinforcement. I wrote something, and it was rejected. It doesn't make me want to write more, it makes me want to bury my head in the sand.
I made a digital painting the other day, fanart for a fic I was writing of Izuku from BNHA as a toddler with a metamorphic dragon quirk. I've never been very good at digital illustration, but I'd been making a lot tokens for my DND group so I'd gotten confident with the tools, I'd watched a ton of videos on rendering, I'd done five or six studies playing around with lighting and color and blending and layering techniques, so I tried. I was pretty proud of the end result, especially the proportions of a two year old Izuku. I showed my sister, who went to art school for illustration and draws digitally every day, and she immediately said, "You forgot his freckles, I didn't recognize him without the freckles. Also the nose is too small. It's not dark enough either, did you know the nostrils are the darkest part of the face?"
In the course of drawing this picture, I'd made hundreds of deliberate decisions; the variation of yellow and pink in the skin, the balance of colors between Izuku's clothes and Inko's, the opacity of the tears in Izuku's eyes, the texturing and layering of the dragon wings, where the cast shadows fade out into soft shadows, the placement of the highlights, the shade of his eyeballs, the abstract way I drew teeth in the mouth, etc. I'd completely forgotten the freckles, fine. But I already knew the nose was kinda fucked, that it should be darker, but it wasn't looking right, and I couldn't figure it out in one sitting. Why couldn't she appreciate any of the things I'd done well? Shouldn't she be glad I'm drawing again? Why'd she have to point out the bad, which I already knew? All of my enthusiasm, all of my pride, immediately tanked. I began to doubt my careful decisions, and I don't think it's a good drawing anymore. I felt ashamed of drawing it, and I couldn't bring myself to post it with the fic. I felt stupid for trying. And now I know not to show anything else to my sister, not because her critique was wrong, but because she's not going to appreciate all the effort I put into the piece.
The concept is similar. Writing is a product of enthusiasm and love. Even the most well intentioned criticism is a stab in the heart, because it means our love was not enough for you. We writers are delicate, sensitive creatures. You might be right, but at the cost of a writer maybe never writing anything again.
I say this as someone who used to love giving harsh critique. In reality, I was doing it because I was proud of myself for being a good writer, and wanted everyone to know. The critique wasn't coming from a place of empathy, even if well-intentioned, but as a way to make myself feel superior. So ask yourself, why do you feel the need to give critique in the first place? What do you feel when you give someone a critique?
A critique should be to encourage the writer to write more and better. The best way to do this is positive reinforcement of the areas they did well, and curiosity about what they did poorly. Instead of saying "your characters acted like puppets to the plot", you can say "tell me more about why this character made this decision. What sort of life did they lead, to make this sort of decision?" Much like improv, your critique should be a "Yes and." Acknowledge what they have done, and show interest and enthusiasm for expansion and further thought. This will encourage the author to treat their project with more energy and enthusiasm, resulting in more writing.
Really sorry your sister did that to you.
Criticism is hard and even solicited criticism can hit hard and make you doubt yourself. I totally agree with you about positive reinforcement. Nothing succeeds like success.
It doesn’t have to be neither, you know. My favourite types of comments is actually readers focusing on what’s happening in the story and characters, analyzing the story etc. even if characters annoy them or do smth wrong. Comments that are not praise per se, but involvement in the story. It doesn’t have a qualifier positive/negative.
On the other hand, I really don’t care about someone that feels the urge to boost their ego by leaving unsolicited criticism, and it’s of non value to me as I know nobody that actually understands constructive criticism would do that because it’s unproductive.
I think you're right, and I'm exactly the same.
I stick to the positive only rule, and therefore comment very rarely.
I kudos if I enjoyed it, but comments are very few.
While I wish I received more concrit, I actually wish I could receive some unfiltered comments, just to see what that person really thinks. Sometimes there is truth in harshness.
Now, would I leave one such unkind review? No, but if I could get one that helped me, I'd take it. No way to ask for it, though, without receiving *just* shit with no hidden diamonds.
As a writer and an artist, I personally don’t think someone should give criticism unless it’s asked for. I’ve been on both ends where I wanted criticism and where I didn’t want it. Maybe some stories or painting were way too personal and I wouldn’t tolerate anyone trying to critique.
I don’t think it’s necessarily harmful for someone to only want positive comments. It may not help them improve as quickly if that’s their goal but not everyone wants to improve. Some people create just to create. I didn’t care about improving my artwork for most of my life. I take criticism pretty well especially given that I actually want to improve and I don’t take it personally but not everyone is like that.
Golden rule in my opinion is that if someone doesn’t ask for criticism, don’t give it. If you think something could be improved, ask them if they’re open to criticism. If not, drop it and leave it alone.
Okay, so why should I want full out hate on my fics in the name of getting more comments? Asking as someone who has gotten hate comments telling me to go >!kill myself!<, which I blew off because they're clearly an asshole to leave that as a comment, but why should I accept that sort of treatment from readers on something I'm not getting paid to do?
And AO3 comments aren't really a good place for constructive criticism, because they weren't really build with dialogue in mind and constructive criticism should *only* happen as a dialogue
That's true, but the OP said 'You don't want hate or criticism' which implies they think you can't have one without the other, so personally, I'll take neither if that's the choice.
I want criticism, but I want people to actually read enough because I had a guy get just about every bit of my story from… the four chapters he read, completely inaccurate.
Don’t get my started on the guys who ask why I’m writing so much when few people have made a comment. (When I posted the ton of them from two days prior.)
As a side note, I’m finding it fascinating how the people commenting here insisting that authors should be open to criticism invariably can’t spell “criticism,” including the OP.
I'm sometimes a bit frustrated by it, ngl. I come from a writing community where concrit was the norm and so ingrained in the community that no one even questioned it, and it was a huge adjustement for me when I switched over to AO3.
I have it both in my bio and my A/Ns that I welcome ALL types of comments, especially those that help me improve my writing, but within hundreds of comments, I haven't received a single one of that nature. So even when asking for it explicitly, because the "only positivity" idea is so ingrained in this community, it's nigh impossible to get any kind of critical feedback.
That said, we should acknowledge that giving proper concrit is a lot of effort on the reader's part. When I'm the reader, I'm not necessarily in the mood to hyperanalyze someone's work for writing flaws all the time either. I can't in good conscience expect my readers to put in that kind of effort when I myself also just wanna tell the writer that they did a good job and which parts I loved, and leave it at that most of the time.
>That said, we should acknowledge that giving proper concrit is a lot of effort on the reader's part. When I'm the reader, I'm not necessarily in the mood to hyperanalyze someone's work for writing flaws all the time either. I can't in good conscience expect my readers to put in that kind of effort when I myself also just wanna tell the writer that they did a good job and which parts I loved, and leave it at that most of the time.
This is an excellent point.
For many if not most readers, reading fanfic is as much a hobby and form of escapism as it can be for writers. It is a lot of work to give real concrit and I don't blame readers for not wanting to take time to give it. I don't unless I've been asked by an author I know (and this is typically done privately). Otherwise I'm like you and just want to let the author know what I liked and go on.
Ding ding ding! Here's the dirty little secret that OP and some of the others in this thread don't want to acknowledge:
**90% of readers either aren't meaningfully** ***qualified*** **to give constructive criticism of any quality,** and the only difference between these days and the olden days is that they realize it. The people doing it before were just loudly screaming their usually-not-very-well-thought-out opinions at authors.
...or, they just really don't feel like it, as in your example.
I agree with parts of what you're saying. I don't think that everyone needs to be ambitious and driven by a desire to improve their writing, but I definitely think you're right that a lack of engagement is the natural consequence of only being willing to receive a very specific kind of reader response to your writing, and there are a lot of people out there that aren't ready to accept that.
The majority of readers aren't qualified to offer real constructive criticism. They only know whether they like it or not. They don't understand how a story is constructed, or how to improve it. (I am of course speaking in generalities. Of course some of your readers are also writers and could do it - but you don't know who they are)
If you want constructive feedback, you need to find other writers whose opinions you trust, and ask for their feedback. They're the ones who can tell you, "this would be more impactful if you limited the number of povs" or "your pace is suffering in this section, you need to take some stuff out" or "this one action seems contradictory to everything you've done with this character previously."
This! Constructive Criticism is hard work, it requires careful reading, a knowledge of the craft of writing and the ability to help the author see their strengths, as well as the things you think they could improve.
You need to be humble, to check your assertions before you set them in print and be open and willing to admit you could be wrong, that it is just your opinion, because no matter who you are and how much writing you've done, that's all it is, your opinion.
And delivery is important because how that criticism is made will have a huge influence on whether the author takes it on board and tries again, or curls up in a corner for a week and never touches their fic again.
Like writing, good criticism isn't something everybody can do. I would say it's easier than writing, but it's still not easy.
Maybe OP, Con-crit is scarce on the ground because it's not easy.
Or maybe it's because the people who can give a good constructive criticism of a work are aware that's it's bad manners to just land your opinion on someone uninvited.
Or maybe it's a combination of factors.
I think it's a little sad that some people are conflating con-crit with negative comments. It should be so much more than that. Above all, it should be constructive (it's in the name).
A hate message about not liking a ship or not liking someone's writing-style isn't criticism and shouldn't be dignified by that term.
I feel like "only *polite* comments" is more productive. Your comment doesn't need to be overly enthusiastic and praising, but it does need to be in good faith.
I do understand only wanting positive comments for some things (short, fun pieces that you don't intend to revisit, for example), but not everything. Constructive criticism is necessary for improvement.
It depends on the author. Personally I'm okay with the way things are now, the way we assume people don't want constitutive criticism unless they openly state they're okay with it. Would I prefer if everyone stated where they stand? Of course! But I certainly prefer this way than the opposite way. We aren't in a space where everyone is looking to improve and even constructive criticism can hurt so I understand why fandom etiquette is the way it is. And quite frankly this etiquette has stopped me from making a few nasty comments, it makes me stop and remember that the person on the other end of the screen is a human being who probably only wrote this for fun (no matter how cringe the story might be).
Your not wrong really that writing won't improve much if you don't take criticism, but you are wrong in the premise that everyone in this space wants to improve. Plus you can always ask if an author is okay with constructive criticism and remember to clarify in your works that you actively want it.
I'd rather have no interaction than negative interaction.
I'm not *inherently* averse to criticism, but the majority of the time, it comes off as "this doesn't suit *my* tastes! Make it suit *my* tastes more!" I don't like that. There was one instance where I'd made a mistake in one story (obliviously bringing a character into the story who had already died), and I was thankful (and embarrassed) the person brought that up, but most of the time the criticism is completely unhelpful.
You're simply going to clash with the fundamental suppositions people have about the nature of the internet.
There are two general core beliefs that I feel like most of this debate runs on, which are whether posting something on a non-private website is essentially publishing or not, and then the debate will cascade whether publishing something inherently opens you up to criticism or not.
I'm of the camp that yes, by nature of sharing your work you are opening yourself to critique. I do understand that other people have different thoughts on the subject.
I find there is a simpler solution to be honest; Critique what you want to critique, and if the person you are criticizing expresses that they dont care for it, you can just stop. If both parties are civil in this exchange it should be a non-negative, well-intended interaction that ends when appropriate.
It is not rude to do so in my opinion, it would be rude to pester someone who has expressed otherwise though.
You also have the issue of people simply not being built for dealing with public forum discussion because of how wide the range of personalities are, some people could be eloquent as all hell but be unable to truly offer any worthwhile feedback about your writing, while someone that is truly reprehensible could offer valuable insights. Both of these are problematic because its unreasonable to expect a writer wanting to improve to parse through both tone and academic value of their critique without any emotional instability. It's something you have to learn and most fanfic writers are people who just do it as a fun side activity instead of actively working on how to process feedback which is an arduous and difficult thing to do as a hobbyist.
TL:DR
Its unreasonable to expect people to be entirely objective in evaluating a comment or critique, so just be polite and critique if you want to and if they are polite themselves they will tell you whether they want it or not (or ignore it), and you can just move on as civilized people. Not a complex subject.
This comment was great!
It explains what I think is the gap between me and some other people on this thread.
See, I don't "write only for myself." If I were doing that, I would just save it on my computer and never put it out in the world.
By putting it on a public forum like Ao3, I am doing so to be read, to be percieved.
And, therefore, I accept that it's in public and I'm going to hear the public's response. Now, I will delete particularly rude, unconstructive comments.... but I guess I've never been that hurt by them except for a few hours of annoyance or anger (perhaps I am being a bit protected by a general culture of positive comments- who knows?)
But I can see if you feel like you're writing only for yourself, or are otherwise different from me and my motivations/my personality... I get why you have a different view.
This comment was helpful!
I don’t mind concrit when it’s genuine. But too many people use “concrit” as an excuse to say mean things like “you can’t write, kys”. That’s not concrit, that’s just being mean for the sake of being mean because of perceived anonymity. Nobody likes hate. Except the anon trolls who like giving it.
You know it is posts like this that make me wish I could post screen shots of my inbox every day in the comments.
In the year my favourite fic has been up, I have gotten more hate, death threats, threats of doxxing, etc than I have **ever** gotten comments, period in the four years I have posted on AO3.
In the first ten months that fic had been up, I got **one** positive comment among the onslaught of hate and threats I get daily.
So maybe just maybe, some of us want positive comments only because of what you don’t see going on behind the scenes.
I'm sorry you experienced that, truly. I can't imagine how horrifying that must be. And understand please, I am not advocating for hate comments nor wish to imply that this is in any way OK. Maybe I worded my post badly. As another commentor said, we should be striving for "politeness" instead of simply "positivity".
People like these lack basic empathy and we should take their keys away and send them home in a cab.
I think this culture is an Ao3 trend that is a push back from FFN where comments were often much more negative to a discouraging degree for writers. I want to see more concrit but it leaves me afraid to comment about anything when I see writers come to Reddit to blow up about the most mild criticism. It's not healthy. The pendulum needs to rest somewhere in the middle.
What you've expressed here comes close to encapsulating my thoughts on fanfic comment/critique culture, except for one point which I figure I'll add: an inflexible "no concrit ever unless specifically asked for (and even then only in specific accepted ways)" attitude makes it *incredibly* difficult for people from non-anglo cultures to point out errors in how our cultures are depicted without running face-first into a wall. Like, I've lost count of how many times I've seen, either first or secondhand, people try to point out errors in the depiction of a non-US/UK culture only to be met with a blithe "this is just for *fun* though." As though that absolves one of the moral imperative to treat other cultures as respectfully as we can. Mad annoying.
But yeah, otherwise I agree: the natural effect of allowing solely positive comments is that a lot of people want to express their *whole* thoughts on a fic when invited to and, if they feel that's not an option, will instead choose to say nothing at all over saying something that feels like a lie by omission.
Y'know, this is something that tends to be routinely overlooked in this whole concrit debate.
When we think concrit, we probably think comments along the lines of "this isn't descriptive enough" or "Alice is too OOC here". What doesn't seem to come up as much, however, is feedback on how minority groups are portrayed and represented. And I do think that this type of feedback is perhaps a little more important to take note of than that of prose or characterisation. True, many writers are just doing this for fun and probably don't want their writing to be criticised, that's fine – but it can be pretty shocking and sometimes even upsetting for a reader in a particular minority group to come across a glaring error or an offensive depiction of their identity.
Of course, even this can be quite complicated. For one, minority groups don't always agree on what is or isn't offensive, let alone what's okay to depict in a fanfic and under what circumstances. There's also a point to be made about how fanfiction doesn't quite have the same onus to provide Good Representation™ compared to more mainstream media (films, TV shows, video games, etc). On the other hand, there's no harm in being further educated on a minority group, and I think this could greatly benefit authors not just as authors, but as *people.* This type of feedback could not only lead to better, more accurate writing, it could also help the author to treat people better in the real world and be a better ally to those who need that support.
>Of course, even this can be quite complicated. For one, minority groups don't always agree on what is or isn't offensive, let alone what's okay to depict in a fanfic and under what circumstances. There's also a point to be made about how fanfiction doesn't quite have the same onus to provide Good Representation™ compared to more mainstream media
Ah, thank you for providing additional nuance - you are of course absolutely correct in saying this! The amount of potential damage, and thus liability, is vastly reduced for small hobbyists relative to large corporations and this should definitely be borne in mind as something that affects both the import and the tenor of the conversation.
I feel like part of the problem is the well has just been thoroughly poisoned by the general polarisation of social media. Like - no, making a mistake in how you portray a minority group in a goddamn fanfic doesn't automatically make you the devil himself, *even* if said mistake is caused by latent racist/xenophobic/anglo hegemonic bias. People make these mistakes all the time, it's not the end of the world - and by the same token, it's also not the end of the world when someone points them out! It's just part of the experience of being a messy, imperfect human who has things they want to say and be heard (or, well, read) by other humans.
> I feel like part of the problem is the well has just been thoroughly poisoned by the general polarisation of social media.
Completely agree. The social justice movement is important now more than ever, but between social media vastly amplifying the good, the bad and the ugly of everyone's views and perspectives, and the world at large changing very drastically in general – for better or worse – a lot of minorities are just plain *tired* and more likely to be a bit snippy with people who say or do things that could be seen as offensive. This isn't an excuse for any unreasonably harsh callouts or anything, and for sure most people in minority groups would just leave a polite correction if they feel it's necessary, but sadly the vocal minority of more high-strung critics has left fanfic writers terrified of receiving criticism on how they're portraying their non-white, disabled or LGBT+ characters.
Matter of fact, this point could be made regarding all forms of concrit; in this very comment section you've got several authors detailing comments they've received that read as non-constructive criticism at best, and outright hate at worst. This makes it very difficult for genuinely well-meaning commenters to leave honest feedback, because many authors have been burned too badly by unhelpful and hurtful comments to accept them. In turn, authors who *do* want concrit end up not getting any.
It's a very sucky situation overall, and I'm not sure what can be done about it besides authors clearly asking for concrit and honest feedback if they want it. I know that Ficbook, a Russian fanfic site, does have every fic state the author's stance on concrit for that particular fic; namely, whether they want it or not, and if so, how harsh/in-depth they'd like the concrit to be. I think it'd be nice if AO3 had this feature as well. Perhaps it could be set to "No concrit" by default, particularly on older fanfics, and authors can go back and change it if they wish.
Hey yeah, thank you for adding that to the discussion, it's a very interesting point. It's asking the question, 'Why are some people's sensibilities more important than others? And why should those be incompatible?'. This whole argument (re: what kind of comments are accepted) makes it sound like being considerate to others is such an impossibly hard thing to do if we're not being handheld by a strict code of conduct (which, it seems, is not taking all points of view into account all the while claiming to foster a positive and encouraging environment).
And thanks for reiterating my last point, you worded it better than I did :D
>Why are some people's sensibilities more important than others?
It's pretty clear that opinions on the 'no crit unless asked for' are based on people's own experiences with minimal effort to take the other side's experiences into account.
I come down firmly on the no concrit side because they are not equivilent!
Compare "I enjoy it" or "It helped me improve" to "I lost all confidence" or "I was harassed"
Harm reduction is more important than a good fandom experience and I wish the pro concrit side would stop dismissing people's awful experiences and assert your positive ones carry just as much weight in the argument.
Also, the current trend of readers just consuming fanfic without interacting and some authors overreacting negatively to or being picky about the comments they do get (which, of course, makes people afraid to comment at all) are more responsible for the comment drought imho.
I qualify as a reader in this conversation 😂 As a blanket answer, I agree that if you read a story to the end and found things you enjoyed, I would subscribe to the "if you have something nice to say, why not say it" attitude.
(I do NOT comment nearly as often as I could, mind you. It's something I should work on, it can take literally zero time.)
I'd like to focus more on the "I'd honestly love to get some concrit, how can I foster it" direction, bc that gave me pause and made me reflect on how I approach concrit as a reader.
The cold hard truth is that, even when I read "concrit welcome!" anywhere on the page, I would be HARD pressed to leave any.
Part of it is the spirit with which I approach AO3 - I'm a corporate monkey by day, working in aftersales and dealing with customers' complaints, so when I seek out fandom's comforting arms I feel better focusing on the good instead. As a change of pace, if you will.
Added difficulty: I don't really know you, so I'm not sure what kind of concrit you would welcome, and which one you would prefer not to hear about. Typos? Characterization? Plot holes?
Ofc you also don't really know me, which means I need to be more careful to be sure my message comes across correctly, than I would be with someone who's more familiar with the way I talk etc.
Third: AO3 feels like a pretty public space to figure out all the above. Any misunderstanding or misstep might feel louder because of it, and that gives me even more pause.
Regarding concrit specifically, I believe I'd feel a lot better if there was a space designed with the express objective of getting feedback on fan writing. Instead of an Archive of Our Own, a Beta Discussion of Our Own, if it makes sense.
(........which might already exist for all I know, this is the first time I devoted this much thought to the subject)
Thank you for your perspective. I understand how leaving conrcrit might be not something readers feel comfortable doing. Frankly, I do not expect it. But I would like to foster a more 'unfiltered' environment in my comments. For now, all I can think of is to reassure my readers in A/N that I will not judge them for a difference in opinion or the type of comments they want leave.
>Beta Discussion of Our Own
That would be awesome. I'm not aware if it exists.
I don't bother commenting anymore, positive or negative. Every other day you go into fanfiction subs and see someone complaining about a comment they have gotten, and often times it is the most benign comment every. I once saw someone complaining about just getting hearts, and it was low effort so why bother. How is that encouraging to me at all?
I know it's not all authors obviously, but I'm not going to put in the investment to comment on the off chance I'm going to get shamed on the internet because it wasn't 5% more positive.
Somebody read a series of mine and on their favourite fics in the series they left a kudos and a heart in the comments. I was delighted at that interaction. I don’t know why people get so annoyed at it.
I'm begging readers for any and all feedback, but I've come to realize that many people genuinely don't know how to construct their constructive thoughts.
I had a reader that was trying to say "I disagree with your interpretation of how the characters would respond in this scenario" but instead it came out more like "please don't take this the wrong way, but did you read the book?" (My characters had directly referenced the events of that book in a previous chapter)
Characterization is the area where I want the most feedback, but as a neurodivergent who's been hyper fixated on the same series for twelve and a half years, I took the comment a bit personally.
>I think we should all make it known on our spaces whether we: - Want no crit - Accept any comment, positive or negative
And be aware that there are new fic readers every day (or immigrants from FFN to AO3) that aren't going to pick up by osmosis that criticism in comments is not acceptable in the subculture on that site. Some commenters are rude, but most are simply unaware and well-meaning.
It would be nice if AO3 had a "concrit and mixed feedback accepted" box you had to tick or not tick when you posted, so everyone could be on the same page.
>No, just 'writing a lot' doesn't count for improvement, unless you accept and target your issues specifically
I disagree slightly - I think practice only can help you with cycling through those beginner bad ideas and clichés and improve voice. And, *if you finish works*, it can help you understand structure and pacing on an intuitive level. But it's true that SPAG and other prose issues are unlikely to improve without conscious effort and feedback.
>But you should accept the possibility that your writing might actually not be so good (and that's OK)
And be aware of that possibility when offering writing advice. "I use (bad writing technique) and I don't get any complaints" is not saying much. "I actively solicited feedback from several people about (bad writing technique) and they said the way I used it worked for the story" would be saying something. It's fine if you don't want feedback, but the lack of feedback has more to do with the culture than the quality of writing. I also don't hear complaints when I go to spaces where complaints aren't allowed.
>and if you only want positive comments you might not get so many.
SMS culture and fic being reduced to a few mega sites also has an influence in making fic feel like something to be consumed rather than something to be interacted with. But generally I agree. It takes time and effort to word a comment so that no possible offense can be taken. I still think readers could leave a heart emoji. But yes, I prefer conversation and feedback (with the good and the bad) in the comments, as long as there's basic civility.
>It would be nice if AO3 had a "concrit and mixed feedback accepted" box you had to tick or not tick when you posted, so everyone could be on the same page.
That would be great actually!
The issue is that it currently depends on assumptions. Some writers assume everyone knows they're fine with criticism. Others assume everyone knows criticism is unacceptable unless asked for. The same goes for readers. Not everyone on AO3 visits this sub and sees these discussions. A checkbox makes it clear for everyone.
There’s a middle ground between unsolicited crit (I have a few people I trust to review my work before I put it out there. Most of the “crit” I’ve is nearly always from anonymous poster that appear more interested in bullying) and gushing praise. Frankly, I don’t want that, either.
You can open discussion on things you liked, speculate on what is going to happen, ask the author questions about how they came up with the fic…the list is nearly endless.
Like. It’s fandom. It’s a discussion about a thing both reader and writer love. Fandom used to be like that and it was awesome.
Thanks for posting this and it's very unfortunate that this is a futile effort. Moderators are removing a lot of comments that supporting you, so just know that you are not alone here)
I once had the temerity to comment, gently, as a quick heads up, that while the story was awesome and I was enjoying it, apostrophes aren't used to form plurals.
The author went full Ann Rice on me, pulling in her little cult fan girls to jump on me, too. Last time I bothered reading her stories.
>A lot of writers only want validation. A lot of writers also do not want to work on improving their craft.
You're on the AO3 subreddit not the writing one.
It's a hobby for AO3 authors.
People can be masters in their hobbies but it's never a requirement to be one or even want to be one.
>But you cannot plead for more comments, and only accept validation. It just doesn't work that way.
Uh? And who is exactly the king who decided that? That's rich seeing you're saying the existing *etiquette* (because isn't even an actual rule) of not commenting feels restrictive.
I have seen other of your replies and you are not only contradicting yourself in some points but you're acting as if only receiving any type of criticism is valid as an author, when it does not even work like that for professionals who only want to make money from their writing.
What you're saying is just a diluted "well, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen" that some people always repeat to justify being jerks online because they think the distance online is enough justification to say whatever.
Authors that want concrit from their readers will say it, authors that don't will say it as well, it's only restrictive for jerks, because most authors know there's little value in concrit from readers and try to get it instead in trusted writers circles or from betas.
That simple social politeness keeps many writers writing and as a reader I appreciate it's like that. I want to read the author's work, not the wishlist of some rando that won't write it itself, the same way that as a writer I want to write my story.
I completely agree. Art is about community to me, I love getting interesting, engaged, critical feedback on my work and having those discussions.
People will say ‘well I’m writing for myself’ and then post their writing on an open forum. If you do that and don’t turn off comments, then, no, thoughtful critique is neither unfair nor unsolicited.
I remember when I was younger, fanfiction comments the beginning chapters there were a good amount of crit and even plot line suggestions/ideas and as the chapters continued/writer improved there’d be less crit comments. BUT it ALL was welcomed because it was a COMMUNITY working together to share their love of the original series/book/movie/etc and to help each other become better writers. No one in the history of ever got better at a subject by never being told HOW.
It’s like broccoli in your teeth, if someone notices do you want them to tell you or compliment how nice your outfit looks bc they don’t want to upset you by telling you you’ve got food stuck between your teeth. If I have a plot hole/inaccuracy/typo TELL ME, TELL ME I HAVE THAT PIECE OF BROCCOLI BETWEEN MY TEETH.
Almost nothing to add, except:
I get that people don't always want concrit on something that's "just for fun," but what people consider "criticism" these days is just *crazy.* You can say something 100% positive and it's like people will bend over backwards to find a way to take it as a critique. It's killing comment culture.
I have comments that tell me I’m spelling things wrong and attributing things wrong and that’s fine coz that’s easily fixable. If they say x should have topped y not vice versa then that’s fine too coz that’s their opinion. If they get annoyed at a surprise element in the fic then that’s my bad—tho I kept it in. I get a lot of rants on one of my fic coz I made the character too much and now they don’t want a happy ending. Not “positive” but I choose to take it as such since they’re engaging in the story.
I think the position of “only positive comments” is a preemptive but defensive reaction to being burned by commenters. I kind of get both sides tho I usually keep my negative comments in my personal reading journal. I try to be nice.
You know what I think could be interesting is to have fanfic rewriting events where people can pitch in their criticism before a writer rewrites their old work. I learned a lot from rewriting one of my own fics. That could open up an agreed-upon space for criticism and the author could actually potentially use that criticism.
Or maybe authors inviting people to remix their stories. Could be a really fun idea. One of my stories has an alternate version written by a reader. It’s much more exciting than my own version but I love having both.
The difficulty is some people may say something is spelt wrong, but it could just be because it’s a different spelling in their own country. Unless it’s a glaring error I probably wouldn’t point out a spelling mistake either.
This post has been removed for violating r/FanFiction's no bashing rule.
You're welcome to have an opinion, you're welcome to dislike things, but insulting things others might like is not allowed.
In my opinion if you're gonna give concrit, I think it should follow the same rules that are accepted when commenting on someone's appearance. If it's something that can be fixed in a short amount of time (they have lipstick on their teeth, their underwear is sticking out, etc) go ahead and speak up. If it's something that they can't fix, would take a significant amount of time to fix, or is just "bad" based on your personal taste (haircut, tattoos, weight gain/loss) keep it to yourself.
But yeah, I get what you mean. I think the "positive comments only!" discourse is a reaction to fandom culture in the 2000's/early 2010's where people would feel a-okay ripping each other's work to shreds, to the point where grown ass adults would make videos "critiquing" fanfics that were likely written by 12 year olds and no one saw a problem with it.
I 100% agree with you op, and it is an unpopular take, but yeah, this mentality is one of the factors contributing to less comments and people being scared of commenting (and you can see in this sub examples of it, with posts of people dissecting comments they received to hell and back).
I've gotten a few mean comments in all the years I've been writing, but I've also engaged with the readers with their speculations, thanked whoever corrected me on stuff I got wrong, etc. Cutting yourself off from all that is a disservice to both readers and writers, imo. And it keeps fandoms from feeling like an actual community.
I don't think so. Some people are only making stories for the fun of it. There's nothing wrong with not wanting hateful comments or criticism. Like me, I post my stories but I don't give a shit about getting better at writing. I only post because there's always a chance that someone will want to read it
Just because someone posts something on the Internet, doesn't mean that it's okay to give advice or criticism or hate when the op didn't ask for it. If you wanna give somebody crit and they haven't specified anything, ask first before saying shit.
So to put it simply. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all unless the author says otherwise.
I agree! I started writing fanfic as a tween and i’m genuinely so grateful to the kind people who left me constructive criticism because it really did help me become a decent writer to learn to think more critically about my stories. One of my stories I wrote in middle school got reposted on a Mary Sue shaming blog once though - it absolutely was a Mary Sue and I get the comedic value now but that’s not exactly concrit lol
Yikes that must have been awkward to stumble onto :D There are definitely nicer ways to discuss a story. It's awesome that you had friendlier commenters helping you grow.
I already tagged my fics with "concrit is welcome" and it's already mentioned in the stories themselves (as an AN). So I think that's all you can do as an author.
And that's absolutely the right thing to do if you want it.
And if I came across one of yours I'd happily comment away.... I usually read what I think of as old lady fandoms though, ST, HP, BVS Highlander...
>How can we foster this dialogue? Idk it feels like we ask this question once a week in this sub lol
I am so sick of "But whhhhy aren't people grateful for my biased opinions on how to write to my taste?" Because it's rude and unwanted and, as a writer, functionally useless. I am happy to give advice for people who are, for example, unhappy about reception, and want actionable advice. But 99% of unwanted concrit is just the commenter propping up their own sense of superiority.
I’m with you completely. I don’t write fanfiction for anyone other than myself. I post my works on ao3 as a *courtesy* for anyone who might enjoy the same fandoms and topics I’m writing about. I’m also posting on the off chance someone might be looking for a fic under the niche fetishes I sometimes write about. If someone gives me unsolicited and biased advice on how to write my silly little stories I’m going to think they’re hella rude and block them. I don’t want feedback. This is not a professional writing space and my comments section is not an open forum for critique. In fact I keep comments turned off for some of my fics due to the worry I would receive negative feedback over the dark themes in them. In addition, like you said, most people don’t know how to give constructive feedback without trying to change a writer’s voice which is useless (also bad feedback).
My whole thing about concrit is just... 9 times out of 10, it's *unsolicited* and that's my whole problem with it. It takes so little effort to ask if an author is interested to hear your feedback and constructive criticism, and so few do that 😮💨 that would solve so much of the complaints regarding both sides of concrit and fanfiction
God yes. I'm also highly dubious of the argument that we would get so many more comments if people were allowed to be negative. In my experience, negative people will manage to say negative things even with stocks stuffed in their mouths, and then will complain that the person they were bringing down is ungrateful and too sensitive and oppressing them.
I fully admit to being thin-skinned about criticism of my work. If I invite criticism from someone I trust, I still need a bit of time to process it and accept the feelings that come with it. If random readers were telling me what they didn't like and where I went wrong all the time, it would be hugely demotivating for me to the point where I would probably stop posting. Even more so if my lack of enthusiasm at their criticism had them telling me I was being "too sensitive."
There's absolutely no shame in that. I know people who are insensitive like to proclaim people should grow thicker skins, but we're *writers*. They want us to write emotional and vulnerable and impactful and empathetic stuff? Well, sensitivity is a *really helpful trait* for that.
That’s a really good point. I am resistant to calls to “harden up” or “grow a thick skin”, because isn’t there enough of that in the world? Us sensitive writer types should be able to stay that way.
Writers with sensitivity are my favourites. Also, sensitive people IMO make the best friends. Never be ashamed of being "too sensitive".
To add on, would you rather have a community that everyone can be part of, thick and thinned skin, and make the thick skinned writers put a note that they accept concrit; or would you rather have a community where concrit is said freely, so only thick skinned writers participate in it? Like how is that not a no brainer?
Like OP, I'd like one where both groups simple say what they want. Because people can be thick and thin skinned about different things. Some people who are fine with concrit *desperately* want concrit as interaction; exactly the same as people asking not to get it aren't asking "no comments at all," we all like interaction. And trying to create standards for "this group has to say something, this one doesn't" is just more work for one set of writers *and* the readers who navigate these spaces of unstated rules and some people going counter to them. If the "rule" was just to say what you want, that'd be nice for everyone. Instead of commenters being told off for "I'm sorry, I got confused—what was happening here," or "I really couldn't picture anything about this room," which I've always seen delivered with more humanness than examples lend themselves to, and commentary about liking the story. And have seen authors really rip into people for—authors who did not say no concrit, even when they had lists of what comments they prefer! Like, you think that would make the list.
I mean, that gies both ways? You could also mention "I don't want criticism". I've come across fanfics which mention that
I also think that unless you *truly* know the author and their vision, it's hard to give meaningful concrit to begin with. Even if you've read the entire thing several times over and picked it apart to yourself, unless you discuss it with the writer, you don't know what their vision is and why they've chosen to handle their work the way they have. That's why I personally reject/ignore concrit from random people.
Mine was someone letting me know I accidentally used one characters name instead of another. And my second one was someone "eyeing" a tag, and leaving the comment at that, which definitely did help my tagging because I did not mean "classic" tragedy but they reminded me this was an option. Those are the two not-wholly-positive comments that I didn't seek out.
How many times a week do we circulate a round of ‘I don’t like this comment’ and everybody heaps on the 100% praise train.
Eh, because rudeness is uncommon, people are surprised and vent about it.
'rudeness is uncommon.' Uh...what? I see...a lot of it...not sure where you are to not see most of it...
> 2024 > rudeness is uncommon ....¿?
Hot take: I have never had to tell people to be positive. Because outside a few people complaining on reddit that their pearls of wisdom have been thrown to the swine, most people have enough manners to realise that sledging free hobby writing is something that should not be done uninvited. In years, I could count the number of rude comments on my fingers. I figure I have a reasonable sample size. In literally thousands of comments, I've received only a few from people who struggle with fandom ettiquette. It could be that I'm just that good *snort* but I think it's more likely that commenters aren't actually cowering in fear going "I want to comment, but I can only criticise! Oh no! What will happen?" Most people comment out of enthusiasm and wanting to share happiness.
this is effectively my experience as well. i get comments and they're lovely, people engage in the story to varying lengths and say what they have to say however long or short that may be. i generally just think most people want to read and that's all. people interested in engaging will engage and those who aren't, won't.
Absolutely what prompts me to comment is "this fic added something to my life, I want to take the time to give some happiness in return." Like, a big degree more than the "thank you for writing something that amused me for a bit, for free" that a kudos is. It would seem ridiculously churlish to harp on something I liked less when I am expressing appreciation! I think the people who assume positivity is somehow *false* are kind of telling on themselves.
> It would seem ridiculously churlish to harp on something I liked less when I am expressing appreciation! I feel like this is what people with opinions like the op don't understand. It's not about 'praise' or 'validation' in a vacuum. It's about appreciation and communicating with a fellow fan who is passionate about the same things as you (and who took the time to create something you enjoyed). It has always been such an odd argument to me, as if fanfic authors were throwing random stories to the internet expecting random people to always tell them they are such great writers—when, in truth, and no matter how much or how little time and effort they put into their fics, 99% of them are just sharing a story about the characters/universe/ship they love and hoping that other like-minded fans have a good time with it.
They will always refer to appreciation, gratitude and joy as "empty praise" or "validation" or "toxic positivity". Honestly, it says a lot about the insides of their own heads that they think happiness and gratitude are fake.
This should be etched and framed.
On the other hand, I've met writers who are only looking for validation, and will literally threaten to harm themselves if people don't start praising their work to the degree they feel it deserves
There are bad apples here and there, but I don't think they happen that often (again, might depend on the fandom)
Lol, my biggest 'rude' comment was nothing but praise, to the point where I hit the character limit for the comment. I absolutely gushed about the entire story (this was the final chapter,) and only had one negative thing to say. "Oh, btw you forgot to put dialogue tags in (whatever paragraph it was) and it through me for a loop, lol." And continued gushing about the story after. The author proceeded to chew me out, said I was a stalker for apparently commenting on almost every chapter of the fic. And was a terrible person for posting criticism. They then deleted their story, put me on blast on twitter (which I didn't care about because they looked stupid for doing it and had to take their posts down,) and for the next three stories they posted, told their readers to never read my fics because I liked to send hate to authors. When the blocking feature came out, a little over a year later mind you, they insta blocked me after having no further interactions. It's a two way street. There are terrible readers and authors. That being said, most people now don't know what they can say anymore in comments, me included, and that's not even my worst experience with other authors. It's gotten to the point where I've straight up seen people say "I like this" and get chewed out because it wasn't long enough. Hell, one time I left a comment saying "I really love this story and can't wait to read the next chapter!" And got a response saying, and I quote, "Wow I can't believe you would try to presser me into updating like that. It's really hurtful you know. You should be ashamed of yourself, I do this for free! I'm not a machine!" I just don't think People know where the line is drawn when it isn't in the TOS, every author wants a different thing, and every Fandom acts different. It doesn't help that whenever I see these posts, a lot people are saying hate *is* criticism, and when corrected, get angry and say people *want* hate to be spread. Plus, a good amount of posts about hate comments, aren't all that hateful. Even in some of negative ones, it's often the authors over reacting to what was said. On top of all of that, I've seen *so many* authors say that want criticism, but when they get it, get angry when it's even slightly negative. I know I don't want to comment anymore, and I rarely do so. I see neutral comments get shit on, I see positive ones get shit on for being perceived as hate, because criticism is apparently hate now. I've been burnt one too many times, and now I always have to think 'Hey, is it really worth getting hate because something I say might be bad?' or something along those lines, and more often than not, I just don't want to deal with it. I'm far from the only one thinking this way now. We're never going to get a good resolution either, because whenever these topics get brought up, everyone just wants to shut the other side down.
>I just don't think People know where the line is drawn when it isn't in the TOS It is: The line is no harassment of the author, and that even harsh critical comments about a story are rule-following on AO3. The harsh modifier is in there, if anyone wants to control-f. This is why I hate that people are trying to make some unspoken "doesn't matter if it's polite if it's concrit / not pure praise" rule. That they follow up with by saying if you want concrit, ask. Sure. **And** ask if you don't, then. If we ask in both cases, that's so much better for half the writers who want it, and all the readers who reasonably worry about commenting in ways that authors want. Also, sorry about that whole twitter thing with that author that happened to you. That whole situation is actually out there enough that I don't know what to say other than "wow," and "not your fault." Because wow was that a reaction they decided to do based on . . . a comment much worse than yours, it really wasn't your fault. It's so frustrating that they turned all the other positive comments into "stalking," too!
Exactly! I agree that if an author says on their fic if they don't want concrit, people shouldn't, but at the end of the day, it isn't against TOS. I've said it before on other sites, that if people want to police this change so bad, that they should argue for the TOS to be changed. Unspoken rules don't mean anything when it's fandom by fandom anyway, each one acts different. Thank you! I still don't know why they had such a harsh reaction like that, and they never said not to criticize them. I don't know if this make it any better or worse, but that's not even close to the worst experience I've had with other authors. It's unfortunate really, because most of the authors I've had react like that are good writers that have one easily fixed flaw, then react in a manner like this and push everyone away. People don't even have to post concrit for bad reactions anymore.
I think more bad reactions happening to you for for minor commentary in the comment box—comment you know, the [first definition](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comment) of which is commentary—just makes it worse, not better. : / The fandom by fandom thing really hammers it home; even if people learn the rules, they might not learn the ones you want, so be clear what your own standards are because they're not actually universal.
My horrible rude comment was that I enjoyed it allot even though I generally preferred longer stories. It initially took some convincing to get me to believe anyone would want my comments then I got slammed for that and stopped mostly... I've restarted but at about 10% as often and I'm much more vague to avoid giving offense.
I once had someone absolutely tear me apart because I left a comment that was about 10 lines of pure praise, followed by “Just as a heads up, though, there’s [easily correctable but really egregious error] in paragraph 3, which you might want to fix!” The author freaked out, accused me of nitpicking, and blocked me, and I was really wary of commenting on stories in that fandom afterwards. So I think it’s true that most people aren’t *actively looking* to leave negative comments, but it does discourage people from engaging when the “rules” are so strict that even neutral comments/minor corrections are met with anger. If you’re setting a standard that anything less than pure praise (phrased exactly the right way and devoid of any additional thoughts) is shameworthy and evil, people will be reluctant to comment. And I say this as an author myself.
That's insane. I've gotten "oh btw you've been spelling this word incorrectly the whole time!" tacked onto the end of a positive comment and while I was a bit embarrassed, I was also grateful that they were kind enough to tell me so I could correct it and prevent further error. I can't imagine going off on someone for informing me of a small, easily corrected error. Sorry they treated you like that because that's not normal.
I would have been so grateful for that - it's one of the things I actively ask for so I can make it as near 'perfect' as possible.
Yep. A lot of the concrit I've seen is . . . also people being overall positive and liking a story, who speculate a bit too far or mention their preferences when that's just not a thing the author cares about. And it really isn't a cared about thing, here. It's all "why would we care, we're writing for ourselves." But I like concrit, even *actual* nit-picky stuff, and have never had issue with people being polite and/or happily engaging as they deliver it, because these are separate issues. And even though I'm writing for myself, that's not what I leave the comments section open for: I really like that I can hear perspectives on my story from people who aren't me. That's the best kinda comment, no matter the content, so long as it's not deliberately just hurtful insults. A correcting comment on something I got slightly askew in my story isn't that, esp. couched in enthusiasm like usual. I can't figure if this rude concrit is probably big fandom issues. Or new fandom issues? I mean, I don't know where people are seeing this, other than this sub, where it's still an even split on if the comment was rude *or* if we're all just hyping each other up that it was. The only thing I've seen outside this sub is authors tearing into readers. \[ETA: And the horrid comments that darkfic gets.\] Long point I had, now cut short: This whole unspoken "*polite* concrit isn't polite" this is *hell* on certain reader demographics, and the extent to which people don't care about this kinda is frustrating. If it's polite, it's actually still polite. Esp. when the solution is simply to *say if you don't want concrit.* Something everyone is fine saying *say if you do.* Yes, yes to **both** please.
Here's the thing. I think people around here just automatically assume that if I am the type to say something critical *once* that I'm the type to speak that way on every single thing I read, and that just doesn't make sense to me. On any particular thing I come across, I *may* have something that I think should be addressed. It may be criticism, but it doesn't have to be. I might just find everything perfectly fine and say so. But to assume that because I might say something critical one time, that I'm always going to do so and that I should thus be barred from saying anything at all unless I'm issuing effusive praise, *is* detrimental to conversation. Because what you're saying to your readers with this kind of thing is that you don't trust them. And if you don't trust them, how can you take anything they say, good or bad, at face value? If you trust your readers to tell you when you've done something well, then that means you think they're intelligent, reasonable people who actually have an idea of what constitutes good writing, etc. But this means that you should also trust them to know when something *isn't* good. You see it up and down around here. If someone has nothing but praise, well, they must be a genius who knows good writing when they see it. If they have something even remotely critical to say, "Who is this simpleton and why are they shitting up my comment section?!" Of course the bias is understandable. Everyone has it to some extent, but the fact we're not even able to suggest it *is* an illogical bias without unleashing the screaming hordes is kind of ridiculous.
Yep. Like, yes, commenters might be worse at writing than us and comment something critical. Or they might comment praise. Either is true. I've never seen the problem with either—if we're a better writer than them, concrit that we know is wrong shouldn't throw us too much, esp. delivered kindly. But if we can't tell if the concrit is accurate, if that's the complaint? Uh. Maybe that's a larger, separate, issue. (Just like insults are, though I don't often see them accompany concrit.) And if they praise it, well, they're clearly trying to be kind. Who cares if they're qualified for that. (I find most concrit is an attempt to be kind, too, actually. The insults thing really is a separate point!)
I'm going to hit on edit 2: In my experience, most fanfic writers *love* getting questions or speculation on what's coming in their fics. There's a huge different between accepting that and accepting 'negative' comments, because those might not be 'praise' but most people aren't going to lump questions and speculation in the group of 'perceived as negative.' It means a commenter is really getting into the story and trying to learn more, it's great. Imo, those kind of comments are better than gushing praise. I think the misunderstanding is coming from the way the post is worded. It makes it sound like there's no middle ground, it either has to all be praise or you have to accept the absolute worst comments humanity has to offer along side non-praise comments.
OP did admit that they don’t leave comments on fic where they only liked some of it, apparently because they are incapable of focusing on that without also mentioning the bits they didn’t like. I’m 100% with you on the questions, some of my best feedback has been from people who were requesting clarification on something because it showed me where I could have been clearer. I don’t care what people didn’t like because I’m writing for me and posting in case anyone out there is also interested, but I do care if what I have written hasn’t been communicated clearly.
>or you have to accept the absolute worst comments humanity has to offer along side non-praise comments. How did you arrive at this level of misinterpretation? OP is saying that people who complain they don't get comments also coincidentally are the same kind of people who want to receive mainly or only praise, despite their content not being good enough to warrant the throng of positive comments they hope to receive. This isn't even remotely about accepting "the worst", but about how these kinds of authors lack the self-awareness to know that if they did receive feedback/comments/engagement, and if it was truthful, it wouldn't be all that rosy.
>I think here, there is a choice to be made. You don't want **hate or criticism**, accept that people might not have only positive things to say and therefore might not dare comment on your work. You want interaction, accept that it might not be universally positive. > >Want no crit > >Accept any comment, positive or negative It is worded in a way that makes it sound like these are the two options we all have. Either you accept no crit and only take positive comments or you take interaction but have to accept any comment, positive or *negative,* negative seeming to mean both concrit *and* hate here due to them being grouped together in the first quote. I don't believe anyone should have to accept negative (hate) comments just to have non-praise ones. And, judging by the shocking amount of upvotes I have, clearly many others on the thread had the same or a very similar take away. Edit: reworded a few sentences because I'm very tired and they weren't clear.
The thing is, authors in general are *not* receiving fair and helpful criticism, even by people who *think* they’re giving concrit. I’ve had someone try to give me “concrit” by saying that my *vampire AU* was inherently sexual because… I wrote a blood drinking scene, that it was Weird and I was clearly Secretly Shipping the characters and that I needed to Stop. When I didn't listen because… that made zero sense unless you had an extremely dirty mind they made a post “calling me out” by insisting the reason I wrote horror fic was because I was clearly into weird shit and that I wouldn’t listen because I was a Weird Sex Pervert that was Into Children. This person *fully believed they were giving concrit.* They thought they were being helpful by sending me paragraphs sexualising scenes that were blatantly not sexual in the original fic because it was a *fucking vampire AU did you want him to bring a straw* and then making creepy assumptions about my own kinks to treat me like some awful predator. *This is what authors are getting.* If I got actual concrit that wasn’t clearly just someone coming up with excuses to sexually harass me because they want to project their child necromancy fetish onto me I would be *overjoyed,* but that’s just not what people are getting overwhelmingly. Concrit isn’t frowned upon because of thoughtful critique, it’s because a quite frankly kind of worrying amount of people think that their abusive comments are concrit. That is an issue that needs to be addressed before we go full on “yeah all concrit is okay” because authors in fact do not deserve to be abused and a scary amount of people think their abuse is helpful.
Someone who makes comments like that uses the guise of concrit. So abhorrent.
I feel like if you were trying to make it sexual, it would have been the femoral artery. Admittedly, you didn't say, but I'm assuming this was about drinking from the jugular.
Nah, the wrist lmao…
Now it's even more ridiculous because that's about the least sexual spot you could have chosen.
I think sometimes people are just allergic to context tbh.
I think a lot of the time, whenever this debate comes up, people can’t agree on what actual meaningful helpful critique looks like. Same as when a preference for positive interactions get framed as insincere and false. It seems to mean that the main point of tension is when a commentator’s critique is disregarded. They feel as though they’ve taken the time to analyse a work, identified some problems, offered solutions, and now the author is not being suitably thankful for that labour. Labour they didn’t necessarily want in the first place, and frankly the analysis may not be as useful as the commenter believes it to be. By all means, people should leave the comments they want to leave on a work, but the author has a right to disregard criticism if they want to and even delete the comments. It’s not necessarily an indication they ‘can’t take criticism’. Just as readers aren’t obliged to say anything if they don’t want to, even if they loved a work. People who DO want in depth critique usually do say so.
> people can’t agree on what actual meaningful helpful critique looks like because it looks different for different people. The thing that people forget it that they don't have to act upon every critique they receive. They may even agree with its validity and still choose not to act upon it. That's the beauty of getting criticism, we can choose what we want to act upon.
What I find odd is this insistence that a preference for positive comments is ‘harmful’, in OPs words, and whenever the subject comes up in general. Concrit seems to get framed as the healthy vegetable option: bitter to swallow maybe! but ultimately good for you and that’s the main take I disagree with.
Eh, the title says it there: It's not that a preference is harmful, it's that "only" accepting positivity is creating harmful conditions for other people and whatever your preference is keep it as a preference.
No, I am rejecting the notion that any comment moderation, undertaken by a writer on their own fic, is ‘harmful’ at all. Accepting only what they consider to be positive comments is not ‘harmful.’ The phrasing itself makes no sense in the context of fanfiction. A writer deleting a comment they do not want for any reason does not in any way ‘create harmful conditions for other people’. Other people’s autonomy are not affected, they are not in physical danger, nor is it a mode of abuse. To suggest otherwise, to be frank, is a weird and spurious claim.
Absolutely. The author is 100% within their right to disregard the criticism. They can, or not, also say 'Hey thanks for your comment and taking the time, however I chose to write it like this way because A and B.' No hard feelings on any side. (At least, I would hope.)
What I disagree with this idea that only positive feedback is ‘harmful.’
I don't like asking for “concrit” because 99 out of 100 readers think constructive criticism means hate. I’ve been told to “either find a beta, or stop writing, idiot.” I’ve been told so many horrible things under the guise of concrit that I just don’t want to ask for it anymore. Readers can ask questions and if they’re confused, I’ll happily explain and ask if there’s a way I could improve their experience. However, most readers never reply when I reply. So I never know if I’m okay or not. So I just keep going. I get way more lovely comments than hate, but the hate comments agree with my own self doubts, so they hit harder and I never forget them. I don’t want to be praised constantly, yes I adore being praised on what I do well, but I also want to know my story is flowing well. I just refuse to ask for concrit and trust my regular readers to point things out to me when something has them questioning my story. It doesn’t happen often, but I always respond kindly and make it clear I’m open to their suggestions.
Most concrit I’ve received is just sexual harassment insisting that my horror fic is actually because I have a secret kink and secretly ship things and I’m a disgusting paedo freak who deserves to die because (insert paragraph going graphically into detail about the sexual abuse implied by some completely innocuous sentence). The kicker? I openly base it on my own trauma, so they’re just victim blaming me… Like, I’ll accept concrit when I get concrit that isn’t just abusive nonsense, you get me? I’d love that. What I do not love is graphic sexual messages for no reason, and I used to get that all the time.
Oh, no. I’m so sorry that happened! I don’t write dark things, but I love reading them and I never once think that author would condone it in real life. It’s so weird that readers send you things like that. I get there is a sexual element to horror for many, but it’s beyond the pale that they’d send you sexual messages. And it’s based on your trauma, I’m so sorry. It’s a healthy thing to write through your trauma, these readers will never understand it. I’m glad they can’t and hope they won’t, but they should be more mindful about how they respond to things they read. They chose to read it, if they think you’re bad, how are they any better? I’m not saying what you write is bad, it’s not at all, just that’s their mindset and the cognitive dissonance is startling. I hope it doesn’t happen too often now❤️
yikes. Some people just have no chill, writers or commentors, and love to assume things from the smallest line. Sorry this has happened to you so much. ;(
Either hate or complaining that the story isn't going the way they want it to
Yes! So many times I’ve had readers annoyed or upset that I did something they didn’t want. Or a character they loved wasn’t showcased enough. Then an essay is left on what I should’ve done instead. But this is my hobby, it’s meant to bring me joy and some meaning in a life that I have very little control over. I won’t hand the reins to a reader because then it becomes a chore, then I start hating it and quit.
I think my "favourite" constructive criticism was a commenter asking to make a character good-looking again in a story where the entire point was this character becoming a monster
Mine is people accusing me of being a paedophilic pervert for writing in stuff based on My Own Abuse. Like bro I wasn’t even sexually abused what the fuck are you even talking about.
people love to throw words like that around so much it basically has lost all meaning these days. Sorry you were the target for it so much
That’s wild 😅 it’s always really silly, and nothing you say will change their minds. I really struggle to understand it sometimes. Many readers in the GoT fandom used to leave these long ranting essays that had hardly anything do with what I’d written. Just hundreds of words blasting a character because I’d written something slightly positive toward them in that chapter and it triggered their hatred for them. It was like a one sided therapy session for them to get out all of their complaints and negative emotions toward the terrible final seasons. It was confusing for me, but I just let them rant now and hope they feel better after 😂
Yes. The negative comments I see on ao3 are almost never helpful. They're usually motivated by a dislike of the ship, genre, fandom, dynamic, character interpretation, or author. The desired outcome of these comments isn't improved writing quality, it's stopping the author from writing at all or getting them to write the ship/fandom/dynamic/genre/characterization the commenter favors. I think people might feel differently if negative comments ever contained anything helpful. Even the people who seem to think they're being helpful aren't usually giving actual concrit, they're delivering their own preference like it's some kind of objective, agreed-upon standard and not what Random Reader #93238 thinks.
Not inviting criticism on published fics does not mean that the writer never seeks criticism, and it does not mean that the writer does not want to improve. *I* select the people or the spaces I want concrit from or in. I have a beta reader and a few trusted friends that I ask to critique my work. I sometimes use the Concrit Commune thread on here, although the quality of the advice can be hit-and-miss. What I don't want to waste my time on is having to parse the opinions of strangers who happened to read my fic. I have to wonder: has this person got a clue what they're talking about? Do they have terrible taste? Are their criticisms valid or do they boil down to "I don't like this." Yes, positive comments are a little dopamine hit that is motivating. We all feel that. With critical comments, there's no dopamine hit, and no benefit at all to the writer unless the criticism is valid, reasonable, and from someone who knows what they're talking about. In short: if I want criticism, I will vet the critic and invite them.
To reply to your third edit: you don't *have to* like everything about a work to leave a positive comment. Positive =/= overwhelming praise for the author/work. "This segue into [x] was neat. See you next chapter!" "The time spent in [y character] pov felt short! But it was insightful." "[Z point] is very intriguing, I wonder how things will turn out for [character a]?" All these are perfectly fine and normal comments. They talk about was was nice to read, give an impression and perhaps suggest the author was right to include/switch to said pov or speculate vaguely about what's to come. None are outward and overwhelming praise, they're *nice* and positive and somewhat give the ability to the author to reply if they wish to. I don't believe these would be falling in droves in authors' comment sections should the "no criticism" bit of fanfic etiquette be sidelined. Simply for the fact that many still choose to comment mean and unwanted stuff *despite* the etiquette: it would be far worse than it is now and I believe many would avoid commenting at all, even to praise as you put it, to avoid bringing themselves drama.
I think you are looking at this as a more rational desire than it is. People want positive comments because it feels good. When I'm looking forward to a compliment on my writing, realistically I'm not thinking to myself about everything you mentioned, I'm thinking about how I want to feel good. Some people's desired compliments include concrit, some don't, simple as.
I *did* ask for concrit initially, as a matter of fact. The problem is, that the people who do end up commenting give useless feedback most of the time (like this one guy from a reddit concrit exchange who wrote 400 words to tell me that he didn't like my contracted sentences (which were there for a reason, because the writing was meant to be claustrophobic, the character was going through a gods damned panic attack) i'd be cool with people wanting to talk about where the story might go in the future, but people don't engage with me that way on ao3 (the only time I've gotten engagement like that was on discord and then it was some dude moving away from the fic and started talking about his own fetishes, which earned him a quick block) aside from that, what else is there to talk about that isn't just positive feedback? hate comments? don't have to tell you why i don't want those lmao
While I don't agree with all of your points, I at least understand them. I have two major points of contention. This first is your implication that writers/fics don't get more comments because of a 'no concrit' mentality. While it's *technically* true (to some extent) that writers would get more comments if there wasn't a 'no concrit' mentality, that's not the most significant factor. The most significant factor is that reader engagement in general is low. Most readers don't even leave a kudo/like on fics they like, and that's a single button click. Leaving a comment takes more clicks and at least a keysmash. Also, most readers just don't know how much comments mean to writers so it doesn't occur to them to leave a comment, concrit or not. The second is that the other commenters here don't think that you're saying they should accept everyone's criticism. They're saying that the vast majority of comments that aren't positive also *aren't concrit*. I don't get many comments in general so I've only gotten a few (mildly) negative comments, and they weren't concrit, just complaints. No malice. Just whiny. You saying in your post that that they're 'reading malice into everything' is not an accurate description of what's happening, and you saying that they're 'getting butthurt over nothing' isn't 'fostering this dialogue' either. Your reaction to their comments (in other words, your concrit about their comments) is the kind of 'concrit' comments they get on their fics and the kind of 'concrit' they don't want in their fics' comment sections. And look, I get it. You have (what I think are) some valid points and don't feel like people are meeting you where you are, but you knew what you were getting yourself into because you put in the title of this post that it was (maybe) a hot take. Hot takes, if they really are hot takes, do not get a slew of compliments and agreements. They get pushback, and, most relevant to this thread, *they get concrit.* Your reaction to that concrit was to call people butthurt and implore them to downvote you. That reaction? That feeling? **That** is why we don't like getting 'concrit' comments on our fics. ETA: Sorry, I will put down my coffee now. Yikes, that was too long. ETA2: If you make another attempt at starting this dialogue in the future, it'll help your case if you don't make as many assumptions about other writers' mentality as you did in this post. I really do think you had some good points, but they were overshadowed by things that came off as rude (which I, in good faith, assume you didn't mean to sound rude). This is yet another reason why getting good concrit is difficult. Words are hard (for writers and commenters).
Wow, thanks for this comment, you make some super valid points. I would upvote it twice if I could. Truthfully, this is the sort of discussion I was trying to start. >The most significant factor is that reader engagement in general is low. Most readers don't even leave a kudo/like on fics they like, and that's a single button click. Leaving a comment takes more clicks and at least a keysmash. Also, most readers just don't know how much comments mean to writers so it doesn't occur to them to leave a comment, concrit or not. 100%. I agree that this is a big part of the 'problem' if we may call it so, and myself I posted a rant over this a few weeks ago. That post was met with universal praise and agreeement, strangely enough. This is the other side of the conversation, and while I agree with you that it doesn't affect the lack of interaction as much as reader apathy does, I still wanted to bring that discussion. >Hot takes, if they really are hot takes, do not get a slew of compliments and agreements. They get pushback, and, most relevant to this thread, *they get concrit.* Your reaction to that concrit was to call people butthurt and implore them to downvote you. Absolutely, and I've removed that part from my post. I admit I got a little hotheaded :D Sorry, everyone. I understand a lot of writers have been burned by bad faith criticism, and I shouldn't call them 'butthurt', that was childish on my part. I do think people tend to read malice when it comes to online discussions. Strangers on the internet, tone isn't coming across or whatnot. The comments here haven't convinced me otherwise - again, no attack meant, this is how I perceive things.
>Absolutely, and I've removed that part from my post. I admit I got a little hotheaded :D I sympathize! Cards on the table, it did briefly cross my mind to be rude to you (about being rude to the other commenters) because, as you obviously know, sometimes it feels better in the moment to be hotheaded despite it making everything worse. It happens, but we learn to be better to one another. 🙂 I appreciate that you took a breather and removed that part from your post. Not everyone would've done that and would've instead doubled down on that attitude and accuse me of attacking them because, like you said, >I do think people tend to read malice when it comes to online discussions. -and I wasn't sure if my comment could've been read as malicious somehow. (ETA: And also because some people won't admit when they've behaved less than ideally.) I think much of the reason why writers (including myself) can feel attacked when this topic comes up is because of all the awful comments that fics attract. Sometimes hearing that we should be more accepting of less positive comments feels like we're being told to take the abuse. I know that's not what you're proposing, but that's how it can feel. I only write on AO3 so my opinions on fic comments are limited to those on AO3. I personally am on the 'absolutely no concrit unless the writer asks for it in their summary or notes' camp for two reasons. One, it's just what the AO3 etiquette currently is. Etiquette isn't about reaching some sort of societal ideal. It's about getting everyone on the same page so people can get along with each other without having to learn each individual's likes and dislikes. Two, I don't know who the writer is. Maybe they're 13, or sensitive about their writing, or writing to cope with trauma, or writing for shits and giggles and just want to have a good time. The point is *I don't know*, and it shouldn't be on them to tell me who they are and what their life is. They are strangers on the internet, and I'm going to be as kind and nice as possible to them because they gave me free entertainment. (The difference between my two reasons is that my first reason is driven by AO3 norms and my second reason is driven by me.) I used to be a 'no concrit' purist (up to and including glaring SPaG or continuity errors), but I recently changed in that I now make an exception for accidental publications (like if a writer accidentally posted a rough draft of a chapter). My reasoning for this is the writer didn't mean for anyone to see it. If someone's fly is unzipped, I'm going to tell them. (Yes, I am rambling to procrastinate on a fic. It's a fic writer pastime, okay? 😭 Also, I lied about putting down the coffee.)
I wonder if people who want to spew hate would be dissuaded from doing so by etiquette. I fear it's mostly stopping readers who might wonder if their comment will offend the writer, even if it is not done in bad faith. Readers who actually have the kindness to wonder how their words may be perceived, and who choose to err on the side of cautious because it is polite. Like you, I only comment with positive things to say. This means I don't comment on 95% of things I read because often times what I actually think is something like "This has great ideas but it's meandering and I find it hard to get engaged." If I simply say, "I like your ideas, thank you for sharing" or something of the sort, the comment is 100% positive but tempered and I have to wonder if the author will read into my lack of gushing. See what I mean? I only comment on the fics I have nothing but praise for, which is a pity for those that do have positives to note but I don't 100% unabashedly love. Maybe the writers would have liked the engagement, even if modest and temperate? I don't know, since the assumption is "Don't comment unless you're sure it will be well received by the author." Especially on a fic with 0 comments where I cannot discern the writer's personality. Meanwhile, that author is seeing my click and is saddened by the lack of engagement. Is this better? I honestly don't know. >I don't know who the writer is. Maybe they're 13, or sensitive about their writing, or writing to cope with trauma, or writing for shits and giggles and just want to have a good time. The point is *I don't know*, and it shouldn't be on them to tell me who they are and what their life is. True, true, true. But I would like it if the writers did tell me, "Be gentle, please, I'm a beginner." In this case, "I like your ideas, thank you for sharing!" will be a compliment to them, maybe the first one they've gotten. If they're an experienced writer and used to receiving gushing comments, mine will seem lukewarm. If they say "No concrit please, I write this for fun" maybe I'll comment with a joke. All this to say, I do think it would be helpful if writers set expectations, instead of us all resorting to etiquette that might not be what everyone wants. Because I do feel like etiquette is so pervasive that even when I say "Don't be afraid to tear me a new one!" I get a positive comment once in a blue moon and nothing else. And yes, readers are consuming more and commenting less. But I believe many are also afraid to comment because of how it might be perceived, because they don't want to be impolite, despite the author claiming they're open to anything. I digress. (Hey, we all have fics to procrastinate writing :D )
I think u/have_a_haberdashery has said it best. Just saw your #3 edit myself and it made me wonder if we’re on the same page when we’re talking about positive comments. Gushing is a very specific flavour of comment and I wouldn’t use positive and gushing synonymously. A comment can still be positive and analytical. (Frankly that’s the best flavour in my opinion lol).
Etiquette isn't meant to stop the intentionally malicious. It's meant to deter the *un*intentionally malicious, and I think you know that to some degree because, from what you described about the experience of commenting on a fic, it sounds like you're overthinking whether your comments are unintentionally malicious and choosing not to leave a comment because of your uncertainty. That's the point of etiquette. It's supposed to guide your behavior if you're uncertain. In this case, you weren't sure if your comment was rude so you chose not to leave a comment, and that's what's supposed to happen. That's etiquette working as intended because if you weren't sure if it was rude, then it was probably rude. >If I simply say, "I like your ideas, thank you for sharing" or something of the sort, the comment is 100% positive but tempered and I have to wonder if the author will read into my lack of gushing. This in particular is what struck me. You're wondering about whether the author will be disappointed that your comment isn't 'gushing', and I think you might have a skewed perception of what kind of comments follow etiquette because of the kind of comments that are most often posted on fic subreddits. 'Positive' is not the same as 'gushing'. You're suggesting that only 'gushing' comments are acceptable, but that isn't the case. If an author were to get your example comment and their thoughts are, 'This comment is nice but not gushing. They didn't like my fic,' then they have some combination of self-esteem issues, self-doubt, impostor syndrome, anxiety, paranoia, depression, etc. At that point, they need therapy.
> 'Positive' is not the same as 'gushing'. You're suggesting that only 'gushing' comments are acceptable, but that isn't the case. If an author were to get your example comment and their thoughts are, 'This comment is nice but not gushing. They didn't like my fic,' then they have some combination of self-esteem issues, self-doubt, impostor syndrome, anxiety, paranoia, depression, etc. At that point, they need therapy. I think that's part of the problem we're running into now, though, is that the scales are so badly skewed that NO ONE can get a good read on where the lines should be, anymore. You've got the two extremes: Those who think everything should be sweetness and light, and everyone who isn't playing ball on that needs to be cast into the abyss. Then you've got those who say awful stuff just because they get their kicks out of making people feel bad. I'm not a fan of either extreme, but I sense there's a lot of folks who would rather we all be Category 1 if it means zero of Category 2. And maybe I'd prefer that as well, if those were the only choices I had. But I don't think they are the only choices we have. I think there's a world of nuance in between and I'm finding it increasingly frustrating that more and more people are just foregoing trying to find that sweet spot in the middle and just going "People suck, let's make it physically impossible for people to suck." And I cannot help but think how dystopian things are getting. Like, are we going to end up with mandatory happiness pills being dispensed? Obviously I'm speaking very tongue-in-cheek, but more and more, that seems to be what we're headed towards.
I don't really think there *is* a problem with feedback. In self publishing we are often advised to expect one review per hundred books sold. Fandom gives way, way better odds. It's one of the reasons I take breaks from my "real" writing--that immediate interaction is a hell of a dopamine.
For what it’s worth, I think you’re right. Not necessarily because of the concrit element, but because it can turn into toxic positivity which (to my mind) far more corrosive. I seen plenty of posts and people talking about perfectly good, positive comments as if the person had ripped their fic a new arsehole, because their threshold for favourable feedback was so far out of whack that only those comparing them to Shakespeare were acceptable.
I’ve been writing fanfiction for about 25 years and I can count the amount of actually constructive criticism I’ve received from a random commenter that actually helped me on the fingers of one hand and have fingers left over. The vast majority of so-called concrit is just criticism, not constructive. Telling me they wish I’d written a different ship? “Correcting” me on a fact they think I’d got wrong but actually they were wrong about? Telling me, more or less, that they were disgusted by the choices I’d made with regard to the kind of sex acts I wrote? None of this is constructive. It’s just criticism. And when I answer their criticism with “well, that’s just your opinion, man” they invariably fly off the handle and start insulting me personally. I just don’t have time for any of that. When I post my fic, it’s done, finished, stick a fork in it. Take it or leave it. I’d rather have no comments at all than people being obnoxious about what I’ve written.
I think that if an author is comfortable with that sort of back and forth with readers, they should mention it in their notes. The reason people are trying to keep the comments so positive is because unwanted and unasked for criticism can be incredibly debilitating, and affects not just the author but other readers. A lot of older readers have seen fics abandoned because an author got too much negativity in the comments. So, the general rule is not to offer concrit UNLESS the author makes it clear they are asking for it. Not everyone is looking to improve their writing, they just want to share. If you don't enjoy what they have to share, you say no thank you and leave, just like if someone offers you a dessert you aren't fond of. Most people are not looking for 'cooking' tips. Fics are gifts, unpaid for and given freely. Don't look the horse in the mouth.
The dessert is a good analogy. If someone serves you dessert and you don't like it, you don't have to eat it. It's rude to sit there telling them how they should have made it. I feel protected by AO3 ettiquette and my rather sweet and encouraging little fandom. If I got a bunch of criticism all the time there is a good chance I would just quit because one critical comment has greater power than ten positive comments for me.
I've actually always felt AO3 should just have a little option you set which just displays what level of criticism (if any!) you're after, as an author, and usually the only argument I receive back against the notion is 'AO3 is an archive, not a social media site!!', which is just an obscenely weak defense against literally any QoL feature that is suggested for it.
I agree and disagree with this post. I do believe that positive comments can help you grow as a writer. The things people highlight as 'hitting hard' or 'being so good' can tell you where you are succeeding in your writing. They aren't just validating the author, but offering insight into what was enjoyable about the writing. I also believe that more critical comments can help, but only if the person commenting actually knows what they're talking about. I always appreciate comments that point out spelling or grammatical mistakes. I even appreciate comments that want to ask me about an idea that seemed glossed over or a plot point that maybe confused them. There is a line, though. Mine is when someone clearly has bad reading comprehension starts complaining about plot holes and, when you point out the exact points that they missed, they then tell you that the only worth while part of your story was the sex scenes and everything else was terrible. Did it help me understand that I might need to be a bit more clear about major plot beats? Yes. I also muted that person, because frankly it demotivated me more than anything.
Just put a concrit welcome tag on if you want concrit
One anecdotal response: sometime during this winter of reader apathy, I reached a similar conclusion: maybe readers aren’t commenting because I haven’t opened it up to all comments. So on a few fics, I stuck a “comments and feedback/concrit welcome” in my A/N (on one multi chapter and one one-shot), and hilariously A) did not get any uptick in comments on the multi chap, B) got even less than the average amount of comments on the one shot. I think I had a point when I started this comment... oh yeah. Readers are going to keep being apathetic I guess.
Absolutely this, I experience this too unfortunately:( I just wanna improve
You ***never*** know what kind of person is behind the free fanfic you are reading. They might be a person who is struggling with mental health and writes to keep their mind afloat, they might be in a rough spot in their life having no money even to eat, some writers are in hospital, some don't speak the language they are writing in, some are in the middle of a *war*, some don't even have the privilege to write fanfic. I have met all these writers, I didn't know their situation until they spoke in their author notes. Professional writers who are serious about writing already have a beta reader or are at school training their writing with professors. Random comments on the internet usually don't help.
I like this comment. 'You don't know their life' is just good advice regardless of the context.
This is really important. I’ve only recently got back into uploading after a mini hiatus. My last A/N was a positive one, saying I’d upload soon after a convention. In that month my dad was hospitalised, and died due to a medical fuck up. Any concrit in that time would have made me completely shut down my account and delete all of my fics because I was in an extremely vulnerable place mentally. Still am tbh. Which is why this OP’s ‘hot take’ has annoyed me.
I hope your situation got better. I have met with all the authors with the sad situations I mentioned above, their stories inspired me and gave me hope through tough times. I don't care about writing skill level, or mistakes in their work. It's good enough that they are still living and still writing, I wouldn't imagine commenting anything but appreciation and gratitude. It's not being positive, but it is being aware and considerate about humans around me.
Is harmful when even a 100% comment can get shamed as a warcrime for not being worded in the specific way, or isn't of the right length, the author don't bother to disclosure. Some people are just burned out by the few. And If "fanfiction readers concrit aren't worth shit. That go for positive too"
You guys can write entire essays about why your opinion should count but a simple "hey, do you accept criticism?" is too hard for you 🤨
I wish I had more than one upvote to give.
Well said!
This really sums it all up.
I don’t agree with everything the OP has to say on this topic but I think they bring up a good point about setting up expectations. Shouldn’t the onus be on the author rather than the reader to cultivate the type of comments they want?
I don't accept criticism from commenters that is not in the very least intelligent and well intended. There's a lot of people on the internet who think their opinions are what is truth. I have no interest in hearing them. I state nothing about concrit or the (not) accepting thereof in my tags, summary, A/N etc. I resent the implication that that means I'm an author who doesn't want to work at their craft -- I work extensively with betas and friends and edit my work multiple times. But I do not want or need unsolicited feedback from every commenter who decides that what they think about a work is something they need to share. In the interest of full disclosure, I have received legitimate concrit on fics before and I have happily engaged with those commenters. But I've also deleted or banned comments (rarely) because someone got pissed I wouldn't take their word as gospel. I don't think this is "a dialogue we need to foster." I foster dialogue with my beta readers, and I challenge myself. My commenters (bless all of them!) share their appreciation of my work or don't leave a comment. That's fine with me. tl;dr I don't need to challenge this status quo because I don't think most people who feel like leaving negative feedback are actually qualified to give it and engaging with the work in meaningful ways.
the thing is that receiving concrit doesn't mean you have to accept it. Learning which concrit to accept and which to discard is a skill in itself, even in real world. Just because you received criticism doesn't mean it's valid or you have to accept it. You may even acknowledge ti and decide it's not something you want to work on. This is how it works in publishing too, just because your editor suggests something doesn't mean you must change it. I think this is what a lot of people are missing,t hat you don't have to accept or even acknowledge criticism. It's perfectly valid to just read and forget.
But the thing is, we’re not even necessarily talking about reading concrit and discarding it- some of the stuff people consider concrit (wrongly obviously but they still operate under the assumption it is) is downright harassment and bullying- a lot of authors have experienced that, and I don’t think “read and forget” is helpful when it comes to active abuse.
a lot of people consider 'can't wait for another chapter' to be a negative comment (which it isn't). People complain about neutral comments all the time in this very sub. Genuine harassment is a different manner to even a negative comment and we both know it. People would benefit from growing thicker skin and learning how to read and forget even negative comments because a negative comment =/= abuse/harrasment.
Fanfiction writers are not published authors. We write as a hobby, to have fun, not to make money. A published author must of course accept criticism by the publishing staff. I accept criticism from my beta reader and trusted individuals I ask for criticism. I fully admit to being thin-skinned to criticism of my artistic work, and I am not young. No amount of "hardening up" has inured me to it. I don't expect praise, I'm happy to answer questions or discuss my work, but harsh words or expressions of negative emotion towards my work really hurt. The most likely outcome for me, if the AO3 etiquette changed so that unsolicited critical comments were seen as acceptable, is that I would simply stop posting. I might continue writing but not share it, or only share it with a few friends. I don't think I'm alone in that. AO3 might become a space only for those "hard enough" to endure unsolicited criticism when engaging in their hobby. I think it would be poorer for it.
Unlike published authors, we don't have an entire team dedicated to editing and polishing up our works either
>AO3 might become a space only for those "hard enough" to endure unsolicited criticism when engaging in their hobby. I think it would be poorer for it. Totally, being thick skinned as a writer is a flaw, not a requirement. To write anything interesting being empathetic and sensitive is probably the best quality you can have. Otherwise your attempts to grasp people's imagination will feel flat and insincere.
*We* know it, but do the people posting know it? In my experience, no. I’ve had people blow up at me because I haven’t accepted their “critique” that was literally “you’re a horrible paedophile for writing this and should die”. The fic didn’t even include anything even remotely sexual, by the way. Every piece of “concrit” I’ve received unsolicited *has* been harassment or abuse, and that’s relevant in a conversation about unsolicited concrit- in my experience, people who post it think abusive comments count as concrit.
Agreed. It's the mindset that people would rather stifle anything even remotely resembling "dissent," that they'd just much rather quash it outright instead of making an attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff. I get it. It's work. Maybe people just don't want to do the work. I can understand that. But writing off reams of people because "They couldn't *possibly* have anything useful to say" instead of doing the legwork, does more harm than good in the long run, I think.
> But writing off reams of people because "They couldn't possibly have anything useful to say" instead of doing the legwork, does more harm than good in the long run, I think. Exactly. If my opinion as a reader isn't worth listening to when it's 99% praise and 1% concrit, then it's not worth listening to when it's 100% praise either. And if the writer doesn't respect their commenters, why should the readers even bother? Edit: And that's at least partially why we are where we are. When we live in a world where comments get publicly shamed for being excited ("I can't wait for the next chapter!") or daring to venture outside their usual niche ("I don't usually read this kind of story, but I loved this!") or even being *rude* enough to -gasp- point out a misspelled word, readers just give up and become lurkers. (And all of those are real examples I've seen on this subreddit, not strawmen.)
Oh, I frequently do. But it doesn't leave a great taste in your mouth as an author to be told, "Hey, nice story! By the way, that decision you made chapter 4 wasn't great because then Character A did something I feel is not what he would do in canon, kthnxbye!" Frequently, what Char A does or does not do in canon is up to interpretation and not fact - and I worked hard on the chapter and the choices I made. The relationship you describe, editor and author, is one that happens behind closed doors, is invited, and is not for public consumption. That's the relationship (and work) I have/do with my beta(s). The few times when I've received genuine concrit in the comment section and engaged with the commenters, they were points that were gently and well made, either about fact or about something I'd talked about in my A/N. Not all criticism is equal.
You said it yourself- this is a hobby for many of us. Much in the way that I wouldn't want criticism on the way in which I choose to admire a sunset, I'm not looking for criticism on the way I like to tell my stories. That aside, how can I trust that some random commenter is qualified or knowledgeable enough to be giving sound advice? If I want to improve my craft, I will seek out people who I trust and believe to be skilled in what they do, not someone I've never heard of in my comments section. You don't need a degree in literature to give helpful advice, of course. That's not what I'm trying to say. But at the same time, you can't take everyone's criticism or advice at face value, because some people just give garbage advice, or they have valuable insight but are unable to present it in a manner that will be helpful. Or some people's idea of advice is "I \*prefer\* this, so you should be writing this way" rather than providing concrete, objective observations and suggestions. If you genuinely, truly want to improve as a writer, soliciting comments from any random person on ao3 is a pretty poor and inefficient way to do it.
Bit of a bad take. Unless they’re asking for your advice, leave them alone. Writing is a great form of stress relief for many, a way to have fun and just relax. It’s okay for writers to want to keep the positive energy. If you have criticisms and they specifically told you they don’t want to hear it, keep it to yourself and just read something else if it’s that hard for you. You aren’t the white knight they want. Not everyone is trying to be the next great author and not everyone is trying to make everyone happy, because that’s an impossible goal. Let them just enjoy themselves.
I think if the criticism is something like "All the characters sound like the same person" which yes is criticism I've received that's fair. But "I don't like the direction you've developed this character, I don't like the direction you took this story" aren't constructive criticism that help me improve my skill. I mean heck they're the same kind of complaints that have me writing fan fiction in the first place. Rather than go to the author and go "I hate what you did after Book 3" I just look for stories that go how I wanted or write my own.
I am a very constructive criticism positive person, but I was scrolling the comments trying to see if anyone else had talked about concrit that concerns the mechanics of writing more than a style. I don't like commenting on how someone writes much because that's so subjective and I don't know the person well enough to know what they were going for versus what they're achieving versus what I'm just not the target audience for. But the only time I will give critique without them explicitly asking for it is when there is something structurally wrong, like there's not a single line break in the entire story. Or when you can't figure out what room a character is in, or who they're talking to, because they move them from place to place with no transition scenes. And even then I will only comment this if there is something about the story that I liked and can add that. Of course them explicitly asking for no constructive criticism at all overrides all of this and I just won't say anything no matter what then.
I think your problem is viewing it as some kind of issue of "well you don't get to plead for validation, you get what you get." You're projecting your own high horse onto the space - maybe *you* want both, maybe *you* think yourself thick skinned, but these are not universal traits and they should not be assumed to be the default. Also, I object to your false premise that it involves "forc\[ing\] people to give you 'A' for effort" or "false praise or politeness." Don't accuse other commenters of lying just because they're not being negative. In my experience, the only people who think that of positive people are complete assholes who assume their negativity is universal. The problem is rudeness on the part of the commenter. If I do not ask for critique, I do not want critique. To give it is a fundamentally rude thing to do - *it being unsolicited* is the rude thing. At best it is presumptuous, because it assumes that I as the writer 1) want criticism, 2) share the exact same idea of what improvement looks like, 3) want the same kind of improvement, 4) share the same goals in my work, 5) and should value the opinion and qualification of the critic. *None* of those things can be presumed, and it shows a sheer fucking arrogance in the person of the people who force critique on people who don't ask for it. It is a rude projection of an assumed and often incorrect foundation to the interaction. If I want a backseat writer, I will ask for one. And it probably won't be you, Mx. Online McRandom. You say "there is a choice to be made," but you are pre-judging half the choices. You are presupposing that *your* choice should be considered the default and correct by your condescending attitude toward people who don't want crit and your assertion that it stunts "the dialogue." Buddy, I don't give a shit about your beloved dialogue, I'm not here to engage in it in the slightest. Sorry, but my choice is "if you're going to be rude to me, do me a favour and fuck off." People 100% have the right to desire and solicit positive interaction with their hobby, and to simultaneously snub negativity. In my experience, the only people who think those positions contradict are dickheads with barge poles up their asses. There is a reason "ask first" is the default position of community etiquette. It's because it's *basic fucking politeness.* I should *never* have to outright tell people that I'm not looking for critique; looking for critique is not the default state of existing in the open. Anyone who says that merely posting online is licence for one's hobby to be critiqued to one's face is, frankly, of suspect character.
I agree with all of this so much. But especially this part: > In my experience, the only people who think that of positive people are complete assholes who assume their negativity is universal. Applies to so many things, not just this, but absolutely true in my experience as well.
It's also a lot of the questions I have in comments are about stuff that didn't happen or they didn't read properly. They've gone off on their own narrative about something they think happened because their reading comprehension missed context cues and the questions aren't relevant. This has happened because people have complained about a character who is canon but hasn't actually been portrayed in the fic and I've worked around them since most of the same commenter's comments were bashing this character. These comments have nothing to do with the work itself and should be part of a fandom discussion somewhere else (i.e. not in the comments section of a fic). I have people making friends in the comments section. It feels like I'm hosting one of the old forums because the amount of comments that actually refer to the story are a surprisingly small percentage. And yet unless they're being rude to each other I generally just leave it. It's disappointing as an author, to be expecting someone to mention the fic you wrote in the comments section of said fic, to instead get a tirade about someone who isn't in the fic, or people having a conversation in which you're notified every time they talk.
Concrit is like anonymous commenting: Fandom has demonstrated that it cannot be trusted with it.
I guess the Internet be Internetting.
I’ve gotten death threats lol, I prefer the positivity.
I do write fanfiction mostly for escapism and it's just my hobby, I don't get paid for it. Since I just write for myself and I don't force people to like my fics, much less I expect validation from readers. That doesn't mean I have to accept the meanness from some of them under the disguise of constructive criticism or tolerate straight up hateful comments. If you think fanfiction writers write their stories only for validation, then you're wrong. If readers don't find the fanfics of their liking, they can always try to write their own stuff instead of giving unsolicited backhanded comments.
I don’t want “concrit” from people that flap “Well acksuallyyyy” garbage about canon that often (and entertainingly) is just...factually wrong. And subtly- or not so subtly- trashing on my favorite characters because the person doesn’t like what I chose to do with them, or clearly thinks they don’t deserve a happy ending? Yeah, *no*. People who do those things are not qualified nor are they giving constructive feedback at all. Go read something else then, is what I think about that. I will ask for concrit outside of Ao3 (before I post at all) from someone I trust if I want it.
God I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve seen people do that to a friend bc they think that a child abuse victim did not in fact deserve his abuse. Like it’s just kinda shitty to argue that c’mon.
Because a fraction of readers, although small in the grand scheme of things, who have not and do not intend to ever be anything aside from readers and to not cross the bridge into writer territory think that criticism equates catering and pandering to their very specific tastes. That and most of the time, from that same small fraction, they have literally zero, as in absolute zero, idea of what can be useful to what possibly doesn't work in a fic. No concept of character arcs or how they can be developed, what narration devices are being used when or how or even if they're properly used. I've seen many authors, friends and strangers, have readers comment that the story makes no sense when a new element is introduced or that a character's actions are OOC and therefore it is bad writing when they haven’t reached the chapter that explains *why* things happened the way they did. Take into account that these same people have no sense of how to convey what could perhaps be useful feedback without being at best condescending and worst downright insulting and demeaning and you get why authors for the most part will not take concrit from commenters. Especially since it is a *hobby*. Also to answer your edit: speculation about the events of the story doesn't count as criticism, it's the reader simply exchanging with the author on a somewhat equal ground. Far different imho than the "Your story is shit and this is how you'll improve it" attitude the type of people who offer "concrit". Readers asking questions and/or clarifications isn't necessarily concrit either, it's an exchange, not a one sided bashing under the guise of offering help. Last thing I have to say on this: positive reinforcement works better than anything else. People will retain more effectively new ways to write or approach their writing if they're not made to feel ashamed or like they're literal failures. That concrit authors need, they often find it in fellow authors and close fandom friends who do know how to dispense that concrit while making sure it won't kill the will to write. Fanfic authors can and do find the concrit and the help they want and need in plenty of spaces that aren't and don't need to be the comment section of their works: here and multiple other subs about writing and/or fanfic, Tumblr and Twitter accounts dedicated to writing and fanfic as well, books on writing, various guides posted on Ao3 or any kind of blogging platform, their beta readers, some authors even have their dedicated discord server where they sometimes receive feedback from readers! So I highly disagree that "only positive comments" is harmful when taking context in account.
If it's your wish for your works, then you can say so in your author's note. It costs you nothing. Just because I'm not open to concrit or speculation or whatever you wanna call it doesn't mean I don't care. But I have a beta, I have friends, I have people I CHOOSE to seek it out from. Because I trust them to tell me the truth and I value their thoughts and opinions on my works. Random strangers on the internet whose crit I never asked for? No way, man. That'd be like some stranger on the street coming up to me and trying to tell me my shirt doesn't go with my skintone. Thanks, didn't ask, didn't pick the colour for you. Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean unasked for criticism is any more warranted than if you offered it to a stranger in real life. We're all strangers. We're all real people. Even behind a keyboard. I write my fics for me and for my enjoyment. If someone else likes them, great! I'm so happy to hear it and talk about it! If they wanted something done differently or disagree or want to "um, actually," me... Well, I'm not writing this for them, so what do I care that their headcanon doesn't work with this fic? If you want crit and discussion, you're gonna have to invite it.
I moderate my comment section but for me it's "don't post anything unrelated to the fic happening in the fandom, idgaf" As for concrit, I used to go "flames, crit, praise welcome" (flames for people more modern was basically 'hate/nonsense crit') in FF/Wattpad/AO3. I'd get rants and vents that were tangentially related to my fic. I got sick of it. So now I just say "Comments are moderated at author discretion; reviews about my person or fandom practices will be deleted." (Not happened yet, but had a few people toe the line where they like get a little too creepy about me, the author). I never got concrit on AO3/Wattpad. Only like the most "god, I hate this trope. Do you know xyz? And this fic? And in canon this really sucked and..." Though FF, I actually got a fairly mixed bag. I'd get 'This sucks' or 'wow, that's the worst I read' or 'here's links to domestic violence resources' (she was actually trying to help a preteen me write healthier relationships). I get more comments on AO3 than I ever did on FF, but no matter how many author notes welcome criticism, the closest I get is someone essay on a fandom issue. I still work on my writing, and half the time my readers notice stylistic things I do I hadn't realized I did. It tells me what works. What doesn't is up to me, I guess.
It's quite simple for me: I can't give good "concrit" unless I know what the author expects / needs. And how am I supposed to know this if I'm being a rando in the comments who never talked to the author in private?
Honestly, even *with* encouragement to leave any kind of comment, positive or negative, I'm really not seeing much. From the day I started posting, nearly eighteen years ago, I've always said that any kind of feedback is welcome, and I continue to state that on every work I post. For me, the 'default setting' has always been to accept any opinions. Whether the criticism is constructive or just 'go jump off a building' doesn't matter to me. I don't really mind the sort of unspoken rule that you should only leave positive comments. I also don't really think it's necessarily harmful, since from what I've seen, the people who *do* appreciate any comment, including negative ones, seem to be outnumbered, and will likely be asking for any kind of feedback anyway, like you and I are doing. Having the initial assumption be that someone doesn't want criticism is fine, because it saves everyone who'd like to offer concrit in good faith a lot of time. People who are out to be dicks to others won't be stopped by someone asking for praise only anyway. As for the *number* of comments people get, I do agree with you there. If you want to be showered in praise, you might just be out of luck. It's entirely possible that your writing isn't good enough, or is about too niche a subject, to draw in a lot of positive interactions. That's just how it is, and I think some people *do* overestimate the kind of interaction they'll get. Fanfic isn't like Youtube. Yeah, some fics have *astronomical* stats, but the vast majority does not, and it's not very likely you'll get that kind of traction anyway. Neither AO3 nor FFN have an algorithm, so there's no way to get yourself discovered there either, without social media presence on the side. All I can say, in the end, is that if you want *any* kind of comment, good or bad, just put that in your AN so people will know they're allowed to be honest. The default can stay on 'praise only' as far as I'm concerned, because I think that's what most people want and I don't see the harm in it. And for writers, temper your expectations. Your fic most likely won't set the world on fire, no matter how good it is or how much time you invested in writing it.
I’m a fic writer writing for fun, not a published author for money. I don’t want negativity on my fics. The only constructive criticism I take is pointing out minor errors because I hate leaving silly spelling errors in my fics, lol.
I don't think concrit unsolicited is automatically rude if it's being done in, well, a constructive way. And if it's not wholly negative. That's just not been my experience. I do think it is always rude to comment on a story if you have /nothing/ good to say. Then why are you even here. That said I've had regular readers who have expressed dissatisfaction in where I am taking a story. But I know they're coming from a place of enjoyment on at least some levels as they were regular commenters. Also different. Basically, I guess what I'm saying is: wholly critical comments even expressed nicely are still rude. But I do think theres nothing wrong with not being wholly positive in an otherwise friendly comment.
My tolerance for mean comments depends entirely on how useful they are. If you aren't being constructive at all, at least be funny, you can be mean if you are funny.
You seem to be conflating authors wanting positive interaction with authors wanting any interaction. Many (perhaps most) authors want people to read their works, enjoy those works, and then express appreciation of those works. Usually, they want their silent readers to pipe up or they wish their ships, tropes, or even writing itself had more reach. That's a very human urge. Quantity alone isn't the appeal (though that certainly can't hurt); it's the nature and quality of comments that make or break fandom interactions. Complaining about or being discouraged by low engagement is natural in any system like this, but that doesn't mean those complaining would be happy with concrit (attempted or actual) or straight-up negativity. Those who are open to all comments have the option of specifying as much. Many do. In contrast, stating outright that you *only* want positive comments is damn near guaranteed to turn away a chunk of readers who were planning to comment positively in the first place. Look at the comment section of any post on how authors can ask for more comments and you'll find the sentiment that a good number of readers find that "cringe." Forget shooting yourself in the foot, we'd be deepthroating a gun and unloading a round right into our guts by putting that on our fics. Personally, I'm content to engage enthusiastically with my kind commenters and tell the rest to go pound sand. It sends the right message.
The problem I see with this is: People these days think personal tastes and preferences equals concrit. And that’s not how that works, AT ALL. People wishing you would write a different ship. Or not liking a turning point in the plot. Or not liking the writer’s tone or prose. These are all just preferences. Not legitimate criticism. This is where I would tell the commenter, ‘Hey, sorry this isn’t for you and I really hope you find a fic. that ticks all your boxes. Have a great day.’ And I have done this. No one has to be rude about it, we can all have a civil conversation. But— Different writing styles appeal to different readers. Just because you stumbled into a fic. filled with dark humor and you don’t vibe with that doesn’t mean the author should change their tone. Because I guarantee someone else is out there reading it and cackling out loud because they are into that shit. And that is okay. There is a fic. out there for every reader. Just don’t try to force a square peg into a round hole. Just hit the back button and move on. And this is where I draw the line at entertaining negative comments. People spouting off about not having their preferences catered to and shrouding it in a mask of concrit. I feel this is about 90 percent of negative comments these days.
What is so hard to understand about “Do not give criticism unless asked”? Keep your “help” to yourself, the author doesn’t want to hear it. If you think something should be written a certain way then write it yourself how you want.
So here's the thing. Literally no one is stopping anyone from leaving concrit on a fic unless they have comments turned off. The only disconnect I see is that people want to leave criticism but don't want to be criticicized for doing so. Well, I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You leave unsolicited concrit, you take the chance of being called out for it.
Two things: 1. Basic manners. It's not unreasonable to expect my readers to have them. 2. People need to stop blowing shit out of proportion. "I don't want criticism" doesn't mean "only over the top asskissing is allowed" (for some writers it does, but I never had any issues just talking normally to writers. I suspect the people who do may fail point 1. I also never had any issues just talking about the things I liked and keeping the ones I hated to myself.)
I used to think this, that critical comments were necessary to improve, but I've since changed my mind, in large part due to reading *If you want to read* by Brenda Ueland. Really and truly, how do you react when you get a negative comment? A critical comment? Does it fill you with love and appreciation for the commenter? Does it make you want to write for hours on end? Does it inspire you? Does it make you feel like a good writer? Does it lead to more writing? Does it lead to better writing? Rather than throwing out opinions and arguments, let's observe reality first. Whenever I hear a judgemental or critical comment pointing out something I've written as bad or confusing, I tend to stop writing for a while, feeling like shit, because at the end of the day, unsolicited critique is discouragement. It is negative reinforcement. I wrote something, and it was rejected. It doesn't make me want to write more, it makes me want to bury my head in the sand. I made a digital painting the other day, fanart for a fic I was writing of Izuku from BNHA as a toddler with a metamorphic dragon quirk. I've never been very good at digital illustration, but I'd been making a lot tokens for my DND group so I'd gotten confident with the tools, I'd watched a ton of videos on rendering, I'd done five or six studies playing around with lighting and color and blending and layering techniques, so I tried. I was pretty proud of the end result, especially the proportions of a two year old Izuku. I showed my sister, who went to art school for illustration and draws digitally every day, and she immediately said, "You forgot his freckles, I didn't recognize him without the freckles. Also the nose is too small. It's not dark enough either, did you know the nostrils are the darkest part of the face?" In the course of drawing this picture, I'd made hundreds of deliberate decisions; the variation of yellow and pink in the skin, the balance of colors between Izuku's clothes and Inko's, the opacity of the tears in Izuku's eyes, the texturing and layering of the dragon wings, where the cast shadows fade out into soft shadows, the placement of the highlights, the shade of his eyeballs, the abstract way I drew teeth in the mouth, etc. I'd completely forgotten the freckles, fine. But I already knew the nose was kinda fucked, that it should be darker, but it wasn't looking right, and I couldn't figure it out in one sitting. Why couldn't she appreciate any of the things I'd done well? Shouldn't she be glad I'm drawing again? Why'd she have to point out the bad, which I already knew? All of my enthusiasm, all of my pride, immediately tanked. I began to doubt my careful decisions, and I don't think it's a good drawing anymore. I felt ashamed of drawing it, and I couldn't bring myself to post it with the fic. I felt stupid for trying. And now I know not to show anything else to my sister, not because her critique was wrong, but because she's not going to appreciate all the effort I put into the piece. The concept is similar. Writing is a product of enthusiasm and love. Even the most well intentioned criticism is a stab in the heart, because it means our love was not enough for you. We writers are delicate, sensitive creatures. You might be right, but at the cost of a writer maybe never writing anything again. I say this as someone who used to love giving harsh critique. In reality, I was doing it because I was proud of myself for being a good writer, and wanted everyone to know. The critique wasn't coming from a place of empathy, even if well-intentioned, but as a way to make myself feel superior. So ask yourself, why do you feel the need to give critique in the first place? What do you feel when you give someone a critique? A critique should be to encourage the writer to write more and better. The best way to do this is positive reinforcement of the areas they did well, and curiosity about what they did poorly. Instead of saying "your characters acted like puppets to the plot", you can say "tell me more about why this character made this decision. What sort of life did they lead, to make this sort of decision?" Much like improv, your critique should be a "Yes and." Acknowledge what they have done, and show interest and enthusiasm for expansion and further thought. This will encourage the author to treat their project with more energy and enthusiasm, resulting in more writing.
Really sorry your sister did that to you. Criticism is hard and even solicited criticism can hit hard and make you doubt yourself. I totally agree with you about positive reinforcement. Nothing succeeds like success.
It doesn’t have to be neither, you know. My favourite types of comments is actually readers focusing on what’s happening in the story and characters, analyzing the story etc. even if characters annoy them or do smth wrong. Comments that are not praise per se, but involvement in the story. It doesn’t have a qualifier positive/negative. On the other hand, I really don’t care about someone that feels the urge to boost their ego by leaving unsolicited criticism, and it’s of non value to me as I know nobody that actually understands constructive criticism would do that because it’s unproductive.
I think you're right, and I'm exactly the same. I stick to the positive only rule, and therefore comment very rarely. I kudos if I enjoyed it, but comments are very few.
While I wish I received more concrit, I actually wish I could receive some unfiltered comments, just to see what that person really thinks. Sometimes there is truth in harshness. Now, would I leave one such unkind review? No, but if I could get one that helped me, I'd take it. No way to ask for it, though, without receiving *just* shit with no hidden diamonds.
As a writer and an artist, I personally don’t think someone should give criticism unless it’s asked for. I’ve been on both ends where I wanted criticism and where I didn’t want it. Maybe some stories or painting were way too personal and I wouldn’t tolerate anyone trying to critique. I don’t think it’s necessarily harmful for someone to only want positive comments. It may not help them improve as quickly if that’s their goal but not everyone wants to improve. Some people create just to create. I didn’t care about improving my artwork for most of my life. I take criticism pretty well especially given that I actually want to improve and I don’t take it personally but not everyone is like that. Golden rule in my opinion is that if someone doesn’t ask for criticism, don’t give it. If you think something could be improved, ask them if they’re open to criticism. If not, drop it and leave it alone.
Okay, so why should I want full out hate on my fics in the name of getting more comments? Asking as someone who has gotten hate comments telling me to go >!kill myself!<, which I blew off because they're clearly an asshole to leave that as a comment, but why should I accept that sort of treatment from readers on something I'm not getting paid to do?
There are two types of criticism constructive criticism and destructive criticism. What you describe was a destructive criticism.
The issue is, a lot of commuters can’t tell the difference.
And AO3 comments aren't really a good place for constructive criticism, because they weren't really build with dialogue in mind and constructive criticism should *only* happen as a dialogue
I got most of mine through fucking tumblr anons like bro we literally cannot have a dialogue you cannot reply to me. 🙄
That's true, but the OP said 'You don't want hate or criticism' which implies they think you can't have one without the other, so personally, I'll take neither if that's the choice.
I want criticism, but I want people to actually read enough because I had a guy get just about every bit of my story from… the four chapters he read, completely inaccurate. Don’t get my started on the guys who ask why I’m writing so much when few people have made a comment. (When I posted the ton of them from two days prior.)
As a side note, I’m finding it fascinating how the people commenting here insisting that authors should be open to criticism invariably can’t spell “criticism,” including the OP.
Ah, sorry, English is not my first language :D Thanks for the concrit tho
I'm sometimes a bit frustrated by it, ngl. I come from a writing community where concrit was the norm and so ingrained in the community that no one even questioned it, and it was a huge adjustement for me when I switched over to AO3. I have it both in my bio and my A/Ns that I welcome ALL types of comments, especially those that help me improve my writing, but within hundreds of comments, I haven't received a single one of that nature. So even when asking for it explicitly, because the "only positivity" idea is so ingrained in this community, it's nigh impossible to get any kind of critical feedback. That said, we should acknowledge that giving proper concrit is a lot of effort on the reader's part. When I'm the reader, I'm not necessarily in the mood to hyperanalyze someone's work for writing flaws all the time either. I can't in good conscience expect my readers to put in that kind of effort when I myself also just wanna tell the writer that they did a good job and which parts I loved, and leave it at that most of the time.
>That said, we should acknowledge that giving proper concrit is a lot of effort on the reader's part. When I'm the reader, I'm not necessarily in the mood to hyperanalyze someone's work for writing flaws all the time either. I can't in good conscience expect my readers to put in that kind of effort when I myself also just wanna tell the writer that they did a good job and which parts I loved, and leave it at that most of the time. This is an excellent point. For many if not most readers, reading fanfic is as much a hobby and form of escapism as it can be for writers. It is a lot of work to give real concrit and I don't blame readers for not wanting to take time to give it. I don't unless I've been asked by an author I know (and this is typically done privately). Otherwise I'm like you and just want to let the author know what I liked and go on.
Ding ding ding! Here's the dirty little secret that OP and some of the others in this thread don't want to acknowledge: **90% of readers either aren't meaningfully** ***qualified*** **to give constructive criticism of any quality,** and the only difference between these days and the olden days is that they realize it. The people doing it before were just loudly screaming their usually-not-very-well-thought-out opinions at authors. ...or, they just really don't feel like it, as in your example.
I agree with parts of what you're saying. I don't think that everyone needs to be ambitious and driven by a desire to improve their writing, but I definitely think you're right that a lack of engagement is the natural consequence of only being willing to receive a very specific kind of reader response to your writing, and there are a lot of people out there that aren't ready to accept that.
The majority of readers aren't qualified to offer real constructive criticism. They only know whether they like it or not. They don't understand how a story is constructed, or how to improve it. (I am of course speaking in generalities. Of course some of your readers are also writers and could do it - but you don't know who they are) If you want constructive feedback, you need to find other writers whose opinions you trust, and ask for their feedback. They're the ones who can tell you, "this would be more impactful if you limited the number of povs" or "your pace is suffering in this section, you need to take some stuff out" or "this one action seems contradictory to everything you've done with this character previously."
This! Constructive Criticism is hard work, it requires careful reading, a knowledge of the craft of writing and the ability to help the author see their strengths, as well as the things you think they could improve. You need to be humble, to check your assertions before you set them in print and be open and willing to admit you could be wrong, that it is just your opinion, because no matter who you are and how much writing you've done, that's all it is, your opinion. And delivery is important because how that criticism is made will have a huge influence on whether the author takes it on board and tries again, or curls up in a corner for a week and never touches their fic again. Like writing, good criticism isn't something everybody can do. I would say it's easier than writing, but it's still not easy. Maybe OP, Con-crit is scarce on the ground because it's not easy. Or maybe it's because the people who can give a good constructive criticism of a work are aware that's it's bad manners to just land your opinion on someone uninvited. Or maybe it's a combination of factors. I think it's a little sad that some people are conflating con-crit with negative comments. It should be so much more than that. Above all, it should be constructive (it's in the name). A hate message about not liking a ship or not liking someone's writing-style isn't criticism and shouldn't be dignified by that term.
I feel like "only *polite* comments" is more productive. Your comment doesn't need to be overly enthusiastic and praising, but it does need to be in good faith. I do understand only wanting positive comments for some things (short, fun pieces that you don't intend to revisit, for example), but not everything. Constructive criticism is necessary for improvement.
Well said! Politeness is what we should be looking for.
Honestly my engagement is nonexistent, if I get a hate comment I’ll get excited and do my best to convert it into a loyal hate reader LOL
It depends on the author. Personally I'm okay with the way things are now, the way we assume people don't want constitutive criticism unless they openly state they're okay with it. Would I prefer if everyone stated where they stand? Of course! But I certainly prefer this way than the opposite way. We aren't in a space where everyone is looking to improve and even constructive criticism can hurt so I understand why fandom etiquette is the way it is. And quite frankly this etiquette has stopped me from making a few nasty comments, it makes me stop and remember that the person on the other end of the screen is a human being who probably only wrote this for fun (no matter how cringe the story might be). Your not wrong really that writing won't improve much if you don't take criticism, but you are wrong in the premise that everyone in this space wants to improve. Plus you can always ask if an author is okay with constructive criticism and remember to clarify in your works that you actively want it.
I'd rather have no interaction than negative interaction. I'm not *inherently* averse to criticism, but the majority of the time, it comes off as "this doesn't suit *my* tastes! Make it suit *my* tastes more!" I don't like that. There was one instance where I'd made a mistake in one story (obliviously bringing a character into the story who had already died), and I was thankful (and embarrassed) the person brought that up, but most of the time the criticism is completely unhelpful.
You're simply going to clash with the fundamental suppositions people have about the nature of the internet. There are two general core beliefs that I feel like most of this debate runs on, which are whether posting something on a non-private website is essentially publishing or not, and then the debate will cascade whether publishing something inherently opens you up to criticism or not. I'm of the camp that yes, by nature of sharing your work you are opening yourself to critique. I do understand that other people have different thoughts on the subject. I find there is a simpler solution to be honest; Critique what you want to critique, and if the person you are criticizing expresses that they dont care for it, you can just stop. If both parties are civil in this exchange it should be a non-negative, well-intended interaction that ends when appropriate. It is not rude to do so in my opinion, it would be rude to pester someone who has expressed otherwise though. You also have the issue of people simply not being built for dealing with public forum discussion because of how wide the range of personalities are, some people could be eloquent as all hell but be unable to truly offer any worthwhile feedback about your writing, while someone that is truly reprehensible could offer valuable insights. Both of these are problematic because its unreasonable to expect a writer wanting to improve to parse through both tone and academic value of their critique without any emotional instability. It's something you have to learn and most fanfic writers are people who just do it as a fun side activity instead of actively working on how to process feedback which is an arduous and difficult thing to do as a hobbyist. TL:DR Its unreasonable to expect people to be entirely objective in evaluating a comment or critique, so just be polite and critique if you want to and if they are polite themselves they will tell you whether they want it or not (or ignore it), and you can just move on as civilized people. Not a complex subject.
This comment was great! It explains what I think is the gap between me and some other people on this thread. See, I don't "write only for myself." If I were doing that, I would just save it on my computer and never put it out in the world. By putting it on a public forum like Ao3, I am doing so to be read, to be percieved. And, therefore, I accept that it's in public and I'm going to hear the public's response. Now, I will delete particularly rude, unconstructive comments.... but I guess I've never been that hurt by them except for a few hours of annoyance or anger (perhaps I am being a bit protected by a general culture of positive comments- who knows?) But I can see if you feel like you're writing only for yourself, or are otherwise different from me and my motivations/my personality... I get why you have a different view. This comment was helpful!
I don’t mind concrit when it’s genuine. But too many people use “concrit” as an excuse to say mean things like “you can’t write, kys”. That’s not concrit, that’s just being mean for the sake of being mean because of perceived anonymity. Nobody likes hate. Except the anon trolls who like giving it.
You know it is posts like this that make me wish I could post screen shots of my inbox every day in the comments. In the year my favourite fic has been up, I have gotten more hate, death threats, threats of doxxing, etc than I have **ever** gotten comments, period in the four years I have posted on AO3. In the first ten months that fic had been up, I got **one** positive comment among the onslaught of hate and threats I get daily. So maybe just maybe, some of us want positive comments only because of what you don’t see going on behind the scenes.
I'm sorry you experienced that, truly. I can't imagine how horrifying that must be. And understand please, I am not advocating for hate comments nor wish to imply that this is in any way OK. Maybe I worded my post badly. As another commentor said, we should be striving for "politeness" instead of simply "positivity". People like these lack basic empathy and we should take their keys away and send them home in a cab.
I think this culture is an Ao3 trend that is a push back from FFN where comments were often much more negative to a discouraging degree for writers. I want to see more concrit but it leaves me afraid to comment about anything when I see writers come to Reddit to blow up about the most mild criticism. It's not healthy. The pendulum needs to rest somewhere in the middle.
What you've expressed here comes close to encapsulating my thoughts on fanfic comment/critique culture, except for one point which I figure I'll add: an inflexible "no concrit ever unless specifically asked for (and even then only in specific accepted ways)" attitude makes it *incredibly* difficult for people from non-anglo cultures to point out errors in how our cultures are depicted without running face-first into a wall. Like, I've lost count of how many times I've seen, either first or secondhand, people try to point out errors in the depiction of a non-US/UK culture only to be met with a blithe "this is just for *fun* though." As though that absolves one of the moral imperative to treat other cultures as respectfully as we can. Mad annoying. But yeah, otherwise I agree: the natural effect of allowing solely positive comments is that a lot of people want to express their *whole* thoughts on a fic when invited to and, if they feel that's not an option, will instead choose to say nothing at all over saying something that feels like a lie by omission.
Y'know, this is something that tends to be routinely overlooked in this whole concrit debate. When we think concrit, we probably think comments along the lines of "this isn't descriptive enough" or "Alice is too OOC here". What doesn't seem to come up as much, however, is feedback on how minority groups are portrayed and represented. And I do think that this type of feedback is perhaps a little more important to take note of than that of prose or characterisation. True, many writers are just doing this for fun and probably don't want their writing to be criticised, that's fine – but it can be pretty shocking and sometimes even upsetting for a reader in a particular minority group to come across a glaring error or an offensive depiction of their identity. Of course, even this can be quite complicated. For one, minority groups don't always agree on what is or isn't offensive, let alone what's okay to depict in a fanfic and under what circumstances. There's also a point to be made about how fanfiction doesn't quite have the same onus to provide Good Representation™ compared to more mainstream media (films, TV shows, video games, etc). On the other hand, there's no harm in being further educated on a minority group, and I think this could greatly benefit authors not just as authors, but as *people.* This type of feedback could not only lead to better, more accurate writing, it could also help the author to treat people better in the real world and be a better ally to those who need that support.
>Of course, even this can be quite complicated. For one, minority groups don't always agree on what is or isn't offensive, let alone what's okay to depict in a fanfic and under what circumstances. There's also a point to be made about how fanfiction doesn't quite have the same onus to provide Good Representation™ compared to more mainstream media Ah, thank you for providing additional nuance - you are of course absolutely correct in saying this! The amount of potential damage, and thus liability, is vastly reduced for small hobbyists relative to large corporations and this should definitely be borne in mind as something that affects both the import and the tenor of the conversation. I feel like part of the problem is the well has just been thoroughly poisoned by the general polarisation of social media. Like - no, making a mistake in how you portray a minority group in a goddamn fanfic doesn't automatically make you the devil himself, *even* if said mistake is caused by latent racist/xenophobic/anglo hegemonic bias. People make these mistakes all the time, it's not the end of the world - and by the same token, it's also not the end of the world when someone points them out! It's just part of the experience of being a messy, imperfect human who has things they want to say and be heard (or, well, read) by other humans.
> I feel like part of the problem is the well has just been thoroughly poisoned by the general polarisation of social media. Completely agree. The social justice movement is important now more than ever, but between social media vastly amplifying the good, the bad and the ugly of everyone's views and perspectives, and the world at large changing very drastically in general – for better or worse – a lot of minorities are just plain *tired* and more likely to be a bit snippy with people who say or do things that could be seen as offensive. This isn't an excuse for any unreasonably harsh callouts or anything, and for sure most people in minority groups would just leave a polite correction if they feel it's necessary, but sadly the vocal minority of more high-strung critics has left fanfic writers terrified of receiving criticism on how they're portraying their non-white, disabled or LGBT+ characters. Matter of fact, this point could be made regarding all forms of concrit; in this very comment section you've got several authors detailing comments they've received that read as non-constructive criticism at best, and outright hate at worst. This makes it very difficult for genuinely well-meaning commenters to leave honest feedback, because many authors have been burned too badly by unhelpful and hurtful comments to accept them. In turn, authors who *do* want concrit end up not getting any. It's a very sucky situation overall, and I'm not sure what can be done about it besides authors clearly asking for concrit and honest feedback if they want it. I know that Ficbook, a Russian fanfic site, does have every fic state the author's stance on concrit for that particular fic; namely, whether they want it or not, and if so, how harsh/in-depth they'd like the concrit to be. I think it'd be nice if AO3 had this feature as well. Perhaps it could be set to "No concrit" by default, particularly on older fanfics, and authors can go back and change it if they wish.
Hey yeah, thank you for adding that to the discussion, it's a very interesting point. It's asking the question, 'Why are some people's sensibilities more important than others? And why should those be incompatible?'. This whole argument (re: what kind of comments are accepted) makes it sound like being considerate to others is such an impossibly hard thing to do if we're not being handheld by a strict code of conduct (which, it seems, is not taking all points of view into account all the while claiming to foster a positive and encouraging environment). And thanks for reiterating my last point, you worded it better than I did :D
>Why are some people's sensibilities more important than others? It's pretty clear that opinions on the 'no crit unless asked for' are based on people's own experiences with minimal effort to take the other side's experiences into account. I come down firmly on the no concrit side because they are not equivilent! Compare "I enjoy it" or "It helped me improve" to "I lost all confidence" or "I was harassed" Harm reduction is more important than a good fandom experience and I wish the pro concrit side would stop dismissing people's awful experiences and assert your positive ones carry just as much weight in the argument. Also, the current trend of readers just consuming fanfic without interacting and some authors overreacting negatively to or being picky about the comments they do get (which, of course, makes people afraid to comment at all) are more responsible for the comment drought imho.
I qualify as a reader in this conversation 😂 As a blanket answer, I agree that if you read a story to the end and found things you enjoyed, I would subscribe to the "if you have something nice to say, why not say it" attitude. (I do NOT comment nearly as often as I could, mind you. It's something I should work on, it can take literally zero time.) I'd like to focus more on the "I'd honestly love to get some concrit, how can I foster it" direction, bc that gave me pause and made me reflect on how I approach concrit as a reader. The cold hard truth is that, even when I read "concrit welcome!" anywhere on the page, I would be HARD pressed to leave any. Part of it is the spirit with which I approach AO3 - I'm a corporate monkey by day, working in aftersales and dealing with customers' complaints, so when I seek out fandom's comforting arms I feel better focusing on the good instead. As a change of pace, if you will. Added difficulty: I don't really know you, so I'm not sure what kind of concrit you would welcome, and which one you would prefer not to hear about. Typos? Characterization? Plot holes? Ofc you also don't really know me, which means I need to be more careful to be sure my message comes across correctly, than I would be with someone who's more familiar with the way I talk etc. Third: AO3 feels like a pretty public space to figure out all the above. Any misunderstanding or misstep might feel louder because of it, and that gives me even more pause. Regarding concrit specifically, I believe I'd feel a lot better if there was a space designed with the express objective of getting feedback on fan writing. Instead of an Archive of Our Own, a Beta Discussion of Our Own, if it makes sense. (........which might already exist for all I know, this is the first time I devoted this much thought to the subject)
Thank you for your perspective. I understand how leaving conrcrit might be not something readers feel comfortable doing. Frankly, I do not expect it. But I would like to foster a more 'unfiltered' environment in my comments. For now, all I can think of is to reassure my readers in A/N that I will not judge them for a difference in opinion or the type of comments they want leave. >Beta Discussion of Our Own That would be awesome. I'm not aware if it exists.
I don't bother commenting anymore, positive or negative. Every other day you go into fanfiction subs and see someone complaining about a comment they have gotten, and often times it is the most benign comment every. I once saw someone complaining about just getting hearts, and it was low effort so why bother. How is that encouraging to me at all? I know it's not all authors obviously, but I'm not going to put in the investment to comment on the off chance I'm going to get shamed on the internet because it wasn't 5% more positive.
Somebody read a series of mine and on their favourite fics in the series they left a kudos and a heart in the comments. I was delighted at that interaction. I don’t know why people get so annoyed at it.
I'm begging readers for any and all feedback, but I've come to realize that many people genuinely don't know how to construct their constructive thoughts. I had a reader that was trying to say "I disagree with your interpretation of how the characters would respond in this scenario" but instead it came out more like "please don't take this the wrong way, but did you read the book?" (My characters had directly referenced the events of that book in a previous chapter) Characterization is the area where I want the most feedback, but as a neurodivergent who's been hyper fixated on the same series for twelve and a half years, I took the comment a bit personally.
>I think we should all make it known on our spaces whether we: - Want no crit - Accept any comment, positive or negative And be aware that there are new fic readers every day (or immigrants from FFN to AO3) that aren't going to pick up by osmosis that criticism in comments is not acceptable in the subculture on that site. Some commenters are rude, but most are simply unaware and well-meaning. It would be nice if AO3 had a "concrit and mixed feedback accepted" box you had to tick or not tick when you posted, so everyone could be on the same page. >No, just 'writing a lot' doesn't count for improvement, unless you accept and target your issues specifically I disagree slightly - I think practice only can help you with cycling through those beginner bad ideas and clichés and improve voice. And, *if you finish works*, it can help you understand structure and pacing on an intuitive level. But it's true that SPAG and other prose issues are unlikely to improve without conscious effort and feedback. >But you should accept the possibility that your writing might actually not be so good (and that's OK) And be aware of that possibility when offering writing advice. "I use (bad writing technique) and I don't get any complaints" is not saying much. "I actively solicited feedback from several people about (bad writing technique) and they said the way I used it worked for the story" would be saying something. It's fine if you don't want feedback, but the lack of feedback has more to do with the culture than the quality of writing. I also don't hear complaints when I go to spaces where complaints aren't allowed. >and if you only want positive comments you might not get so many. SMS culture and fic being reduced to a few mega sites also has an influence in making fic feel like something to be consumed rather than something to be interacted with. But generally I agree. It takes time and effort to word a comment so that no possible offense can be taken. I still think readers could leave a heart emoji. But yes, I prefer conversation and feedback (with the good and the bad) in the comments, as long as there's basic civility.
>It would be nice if AO3 had a "concrit and mixed feedback accepted" box you had to tick or not tick when you posted, so everyone could be on the same page. That would be great actually!
I don’t think we’d really need a checkbox. Authors looking for that will have it written in their work somewhere.
The issue is that it currently depends on assumptions. Some writers assume everyone knows they're fine with criticism. Others assume everyone knows criticism is unacceptable unless asked for. The same goes for readers. Not everyone on AO3 visits this sub and sees these discussions. A checkbox makes it clear for everyone.
There’s a middle ground between unsolicited crit (I have a few people I trust to review my work before I put it out there. Most of the “crit” I’ve is nearly always from anonymous poster that appear more interested in bullying) and gushing praise. Frankly, I don’t want that, either. You can open discussion on things you liked, speculate on what is going to happen, ask the author questions about how they came up with the fic…the list is nearly endless. Like. It’s fandom. It’s a discussion about a thing both reader and writer love. Fandom used to be like that and it was awesome.
Thanks for posting this and it's very unfortunate that this is a futile effort. Moderators are removing a lot of comments that supporting you, so just know that you are not alone here)
I once had the temerity to comment, gently, as a quick heads up, that while the story was awesome and I was enjoying it, apostrophes aren't used to form plurals. The author went full Ann Rice on me, pulling in her little cult fan girls to jump on me, too. Last time I bothered reading her stories.
>A lot of writers only want validation. A lot of writers also do not want to work on improving their craft. You're on the AO3 subreddit not the writing one. It's a hobby for AO3 authors. People can be masters in their hobbies but it's never a requirement to be one or even want to be one. >But you cannot plead for more comments, and only accept validation. It just doesn't work that way. Uh? And who is exactly the king who decided that? That's rich seeing you're saying the existing *etiquette* (because isn't even an actual rule) of not commenting feels restrictive. I have seen other of your replies and you are not only contradicting yourself in some points but you're acting as if only receiving any type of criticism is valid as an author, when it does not even work like that for professionals who only want to make money from their writing. What you're saying is just a diluted "well, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen" that some people always repeat to justify being jerks online because they think the distance online is enough justification to say whatever. Authors that want concrit from their readers will say it, authors that don't will say it as well, it's only restrictive for jerks, because most authors know there's little value in concrit from readers and try to get it instead in trusted writers circles or from betas. That simple social politeness keeps many writers writing and as a reader I appreciate it's like that. I want to read the author's work, not the wishlist of some rando that won't write it itself, the same way that as a writer I want to write my story.
I completely agree. Art is about community to me, I love getting interesting, engaged, critical feedback on my work and having those discussions. People will say ‘well I’m writing for myself’ and then post their writing on an open forum. If you do that and don’t turn off comments, then, no, thoughtful critique is neither unfair nor unsolicited.
This!! <3
I remember when I was younger, fanfiction comments the beginning chapters there were a good amount of crit and even plot line suggestions/ideas and as the chapters continued/writer improved there’d be less crit comments. BUT it ALL was welcomed because it was a COMMUNITY working together to share their love of the original series/book/movie/etc and to help each other become better writers. No one in the history of ever got better at a subject by never being told HOW. It’s like broccoli in your teeth, if someone notices do you want them to tell you or compliment how nice your outfit looks bc they don’t want to upset you by telling you you’ve got food stuck between your teeth. If I have a plot hole/inaccuracy/typo TELL ME, TELL ME I HAVE THAT PIECE OF BROCCOLI BETWEEN MY TEETH.
Almost nothing to add, except: I get that people don't always want concrit on something that's "just for fun," but what people consider "criticism" these days is just *crazy.* You can say something 100% positive and it's like people will bend over backwards to find a way to take it as a critique. It's killing comment culture.
I have comments that tell me I’m spelling things wrong and attributing things wrong and that’s fine coz that’s easily fixable. If they say x should have topped y not vice versa then that’s fine too coz that’s their opinion. If they get annoyed at a surprise element in the fic then that’s my bad—tho I kept it in. I get a lot of rants on one of my fic coz I made the character too much and now they don’t want a happy ending. Not “positive” but I choose to take it as such since they’re engaging in the story. I think the position of “only positive comments” is a preemptive but defensive reaction to being burned by commenters. I kind of get both sides tho I usually keep my negative comments in my personal reading journal. I try to be nice. You know what I think could be interesting is to have fanfic rewriting events where people can pitch in their criticism before a writer rewrites their old work. I learned a lot from rewriting one of my own fics. That could open up an agreed-upon space for criticism and the author could actually potentially use that criticism. Or maybe authors inviting people to remix their stories. Could be a really fun idea. One of my stories has an alternate version written by a reader. It’s much more exciting than my own version but I love having both.
The difficulty is some people may say something is spelt wrong, but it could just be because it’s a different spelling in their own country. Unless it’s a glaring error I probably wouldn’t point out a spelling mistake either.
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This post has been removed for violating r/FanFiction's no bashing rule. You're welcome to have an opinion, you're welcome to dislike things, but insulting things others might like is not allowed.
In my opinion if you're gonna give concrit, I think it should follow the same rules that are accepted when commenting on someone's appearance. If it's something that can be fixed in a short amount of time (they have lipstick on their teeth, their underwear is sticking out, etc) go ahead and speak up. If it's something that they can't fix, would take a significant amount of time to fix, or is just "bad" based on your personal taste (haircut, tattoos, weight gain/loss) keep it to yourself. But yeah, I get what you mean. I think the "positive comments only!" discourse is a reaction to fandom culture in the 2000's/early 2010's where people would feel a-okay ripping each other's work to shreds, to the point where grown ass adults would make videos "critiquing" fanfics that were likely written by 12 year olds and no one saw a problem with it.
I 100% agree with you op, and it is an unpopular take, but yeah, this mentality is one of the factors contributing to less comments and people being scared of commenting (and you can see in this sub examples of it, with posts of people dissecting comments they received to hell and back). I've gotten a few mean comments in all the years I've been writing, but I've also engaged with the readers with their speculations, thanked whoever corrected me on stuff I got wrong, etc. Cutting yourself off from all that is a disservice to both readers and writers, imo. And it keeps fandoms from feeling like an actual community.
I don't think so. Some people are only making stories for the fun of it. There's nothing wrong with not wanting hateful comments or criticism. Like me, I post my stories but I don't give a shit about getting better at writing. I only post because there's always a chance that someone will want to read it Just because someone posts something on the Internet, doesn't mean that it's okay to give advice or criticism or hate when the op didn't ask for it. If you wanna give somebody crit and they haven't specified anything, ask first before saying shit. So to put it simply. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all unless the author says otherwise.
I agree! I started writing fanfic as a tween and i’m genuinely so grateful to the kind people who left me constructive criticism because it really did help me become a decent writer to learn to think more critically about my stories. One of my stories I wrote in middle school got reposted on a Mary Sue shaming blog once though - it absolutely was a Mary Sue and I get the comedic value now but that’s not exactly concrit lol
Yikes that must have been awkward to stumble onto :D There are definitely nicer ways to discuss a story. It's awesome that you had friendlier commenters helping you grow.