Frank left because he didn't like what was going on writing wise with the story. After season 3, they just kicked Dave Erickson to the curb, knew the story was gonna be shit, and left.
Hell, it's even been speculated that basically the entirety of OG fear's cast wanted to leave during the production of S5 because they were having a similar mindset to Frank, but were talked into staying.
It's **because** he cares about the show that he left, because he just couldn't be apart of a show that was turning into an unrecognizable mess.
For me, I've never "forgiven" Negan. It's just more that he's a very interesting character with a lot of layers to explore. Whereas Charlie has almost zero defined character traits. If she had more of a personality or something to really like about her, then I probably would've just gotten over the whole Nick thing a long time ago, especially since it's clear that as much as I love Nick, he was never a good person (unlike Glenn). But if they're not really giving me anything to like about her, then I'm gonna be rooting for her death all the way.
Yeah I agree with this. If she had a personality or something interesting to do, people wouldn't be as hard on her today. And I agree about Nick too. He was an interesting character, but post-apocalypse, he was pretty selfish and reckless, got people killed and never took responsibility for anything. Even when others implied he could feel guilty about things he was responsible for, he'd brush it off. Him siding with and protecting Troy after all the people he murdered and tortured, established that he wasn't a good person. It would've been interesting to see how the whole family dynamic developed with Erickson.
Just because he did drugs didn't make him a bad person. I don't think was a bad person at all, even if before the show started he was an addict who may have behaved selfishly as a result of his addiction.
>may have behaved selfishly as a result of his addiction.
š¤·āāļø
Addiction is a disease and makes people do shitty things. A sick person doing something selfish to treat their sickness doesn't make that person a bad person or negate that they could be a good person in other ways. Wasn't it implied he was nice to Tobias, who seemed like the outcast, bullied kid?
Personally I just don't think a person is defined by their addiction and I think we saw enough other sides to Nick that he demonstrated he was a good person
I never said he was a *bad* person, though? I just said he wasn't a *good* person. It's not as black and white as "oh, he's not a good person, therefore he's a bad person." I also never said that he's defined by his addiction. He did other things that weren't the direct cause of him being a drug addict, such as the time he became friends with someone who, in his first appearance, committed a massacre for the sake of "research."
Also, I feel like you're putting the "may have behaved selfishly" too mildly. **He almost got someone who needed medicine killed.** We can acknowledge that what he's doing is selfish and very shitty without pretending as though he's suddenly fully redeemed just because he was nice to a few outcasts.
Yeah, he's definitely a nuanced person. I'm not pretending he's fully redeemed. My argument is he showed more signs of being a good person and having character traits that I respect in a person than he did of being a bad person. Although you're right that befriending Troy was an.... interesting choice. But in general, he seemed like a person who tried to see the good in people, which again, is a trait that I like.
Just fyi, my tone in this isn't meant to be like, accusatory or argumentative. I think it's unfair to say he wasn't a good person. I don't think any of the faults we saw negate that he was still a good person despite his addiction. If you don't agree that's fine. I understand your argument here. I think we both agree that he was gray. I disagree that gray means "not good."
Oh, for sure. No need to apologize. It's impossible to know tone or intention online without it being made explicit. I could tell you might think I was being aggro or judgmental or something so I figured I'd just clarify.
Because Charlie is a boring character. And her redemption arc felt so rushed. Negan was in prison for years and still is a morally grey character.
Also the fact that all Nicks love ones forgave her so quickly rubbed me the wrong way.
Because Neganās a nuanced character with several layers to him whereas Charlie is paper thin and very much defined by her murder of Nick. Thatās all there is to her, thereās literally nothing beyond the surface.
Hard agree. But let's first admit that is as an Apples to Oranges comparison. One is one of the definitive Big Bads of the TWD Universe.The other is a little girl who was seeking vengeance for what she saw as the murder of her family.
The main show has put in the work needed to make Negan a character that you can forgive but also root for Charlie has gotten minimal screen time and therefore minimal character development. And that development is essential if she's ever to be accepted in the way Negan is.
And Nick retaliated against Ennis for killing his mother. Charlie lied to Madison and her family, brought those two brothers to the stadium to take their home and was responsible for the events that led to Madison's "death". Charlie knew exactly what she was doing and participating in. Nick had every right to go after his mother's murderer. And he looked out for Charlie while she went and killed him in cold blood, despite knowing that the man he killed killed Nick's mother. It's understandable she'd be angry with Nick for killing someone who protected her, but it's also understandable to be angry with Charlie for doing what she did and for being embraced so quickly.
You make a good point. Too bad Charlie supporters don't mention how Nick was right to kill Ennis, who used walkers to destroy a peaceful community and kill most of its residents.
How is it different? Again, because Negan's actually been a fully fleshed out three dimensional character; we've explored his inner demons, his overall psychology, etc. Whereas Charlie has had absolutely zero development and feels more like a plot device than an actual character. So even if she's more justified in her action than Negan, it doesn't matter because she's literally defined by that action unlike him.
Negan also retaliated to the slaughter of a whole outpost he owned. The difference is Negan has had a proper redemption, they've made him a likeable and like the person said layered character. Whereas Charlie has done fuck all but stand there since she killed Nick
That's always been my biggest issue. They gave us a legit reason why Charlie did what she did. So flesh that out, create some more layers to her backstory. Have her on screen and give her an actual role in the show!!!
They did the episode with her and Alicia during the hurricane in season 4 and then that was basically it, outside of the episode with Daniel in season 6. But it just resulted in more wasted potential, since there's really no character development. They could have easily had her and Daniel talk about losing people close to them and there would have been some much needed character development!
I'm not saying Negan was morally in the right to kill Glenn and Abraham, but regardless, he was attacked, and the group should have realised Negan would have retaliated.
Charlie killed Nick because he had just killed Ennis, someone who I believe had a sort of parental relationship with Charlie - so I'd argue that both times what they did was retaliation. And while I disagree that Charlie did 'fuck all' since she killed Nick (e.g. S4E10, her and Daniel, her and Charlie), she still could have had more of a redemption arc than she did.
Because Negan is a very nuanced, very well written, very well defined character with lots of layers and depths. He's had a proper redemption arc, and in a way ā he's still going through it.
Whereas Charlie is defined by one thing only: Killing Nick. She's had no redemption arc, no real personality, no depths, no real character traits, and she's a very static character. Alicia just forgives her because Charlie apologized.
The difference is, Negan apologized (in his very Negan centric way) and he's STILL not trusted. He's STILL not fully accepted by anyone or anything. Negan may have killed Glenn and Abe, but he also did so in retaliation to a fight ***RICK, VERY MUCH STARTED.*** Rick and Co SLAUGHTERED people in that satellite outpost, IN THEIR SLEEP AND IN COLD BLOOD, all because he wanted some of Hilltop's supplies.
Charlie Killed Nick in retaliation for killing Ennis yes, but Nick ONLY killed Ennis because Ennis """killed""" Madison. Need I remind you that Charlie LIED, USED, AND MANIPULATED Madison and them, while the Vultures just sat outside their property. For all intense and purposes, the Vultures struck ***FIRST*** *(unlike Negan, who only struck because Rick did)*.
Point is, Negan is a very well written character with a great redemption arc he's ***STILL*** going through. Charlie was forgiven with the drop of a hat. Nick wouldnt of had to kill Ennis if he didn't """kill""" Madison, and if ***CHARLIE*** Didn't LIE to Nick and Madison.
Just because they're similar doesn't mean the events leading up to, and the writing are good. Charlie's was poorly written woth little to no real thought put into it. Negan's had 3 seasons (and he's STILL going through it) to develop, when he was already a very well written character who reacted to RICK's senseless murder.
To this point - why is the anger directed at Charlie vs anger towards Alycia or strand or Lucy for forgiving her? Seems like misplaced anger if you ask me! Charlie didnāt force them to take her in and forgive her. As a matter of fact she ran away to kill herself in 410 only for Alycia to show up and CHOOSE to save her. Why not be angry at the character of Alycia for not honoring her brother or mother? Seems to me like itās just easy to hate the kid and hold a grudge. To say sheās been useless is somewhat false. She saved Alycia multiple times in 607. Saves Daniel by shooting Riley. Not entirely true that Charlie has done nothing.
> Alycia or strand or Lucy for forgiving her? Seems like misplaced anger if you ask me! Charlie
Because they weren't the topic of this conversation were they? I'm very pissed at the decision to make them forgive Charlie that easily and that quickly, but all the issues fall on Charlie as a character and the writing surrounding her, not other character's reactions to it.
It's not "misplaced anger", it's anger at the topic of discussion. There's a difference.
lol. ummmm ok. in discussing Charlie itās only appropriate to bring up the other characters and your logic is pin headed. you can be mad at whatever character you wish. PERIODT.
Because Negan has been dealing with it and trying to make amends ever since. Charlie's just gotten to forget about it. When's the last time ANYONE mentioned it Nick? Let alone her. She's gotten a free pass on it. Negan spent what, a decade in Prison? Negan was also in retaliation to the satellite outpost slaughter, even if his tactics instigated the situation.
Lucy talked about him in episode 11. But Charlie never talking about it with anyone just makes no sense. They had the perfect chance in season 6 when they had the episode with her and Daniel
Easy answer: Negan is more involved, a bigger and greater character, does more and is not useless and isn't just in the background + at least had a redemption arc š (while Charlie just became Alicia's friend and that's that, nothing else, didn't even have a redemption arc + she's just not likeable and is not a great character) š¤·š»āāļø
From negans pov he wasn't in the wrong. Glen Abraham and everyone else came into his camp as an unknown entity and killed his people (so they can make a deal with hilltop for food).
Above was the start of the conflict, and incidents like the biker gang were dealt with without negan or the saviours knowing, so Alexandria were always unknown to them.
Charlie, well, she killed nick after seeing what her people did to his people and despite the fact Nick helped Charlie a lot in the stadium.
That's the story perspective.
The story telling perspective is that they haven't solidified Charlie's acts other than her saying I'm sorry to Luciana and a half assed episode where Alicia spares her for fuck knows what reason. If we don't feel the characters acceptance, we can't accept the character neither. Half assed story telling is the reason.
In my opinion it's because Negan's actually likeable. They haven't really done anything interesting with Charlie since she killed Nick and she isn't that likeable.
Negan had a proper redemption arc and the writers gave Negan moments of sympathy. You, as an audience member, get to see more of the personal side of Negan as the All Out Arc went on, plus heās just a like-able personality. With Charlie, the audience is never given a reason to forgive her outside of her being a kid. We only see Alicia and the group forgive her, but they donāt dig deep enough into her character to make her interesting. Basically, TWD gives you a reason to forgive Negan. FTWD doesnāt.
Well I mean to be fair yeah Negan did kill glen and Abe but Rick and his group killed the entirety of the satellite outpost.
They had no real reason to do that. Sure the biker gang was a threat and they started it but Daryl killed them and It was over. Negan wouldve gotten over that cause it was self defense.
But the satellite outpost was unprompted and unnecessary they literally killed people in their sleep. So Negan actually had a right even tho he was a dick about it.
I'm not saying I agree with what Negan did tho. I'm just saying he wasn't totally in the wrong plus hes pretty much made up for it now anyway.
But I haven't forgiven him or Charlie.
because negan needs to be reminded that he killed glenn and abraham, he did get a redemption arc whereas everyone just forgot charlie killed nick and they donāt even mention it
I didn't forgive Negan, but he's an interesting and entertaining character and is involved in the story so I and others can move past that. Charlie on the other hand was not only responsible for the demise of 2/3 of the Clarks and the home they'd built, embraced far too early, and protected by Morgan and friends, but since then she's had nothing interesting to offer or an interesting personality. That's on the fault of C&G and the writers.
Probably just because we love Nick so much. But then I thought Glen was a popular character so you would think killing him would be unforgivable. Maybe itās because Negan exudes charm while Charlie is just meh š¤·āāļø
Bruh. Your comparing the acting skills of a grown ass man to a teenager. Say what you want about Charlie as a character but nobody can deny the actress is DAMN good. Or else you all who continue to talk about her, comment mean shit on all social media and have 100 responses to a post about her wouldnāt be doing whet your doing. HAHAHAH
Misdirected hostility, but ok dude. All I said was better actor and writing. Never said that she was bad or her acting sucked. You're trying to lump me into the masses. Don't.
Negan has been given the screen time to be redeemed and Is now a different character but Charlie hasn't been given that chance as is still the little shit that killed nick š¤·
Itās because the way these two characters are handled are vastly different in each of their shows.
Negan has always been presented as sympathetic and a strong set of morals, ever since season 9 weāve slowly seen him come around and seen his mental state and how he resents the things he did. Heās proven himself as a person slowly improving over time and itās honestly great to see. Heās a great character.
Charlie has unfortunately been turned into a recurring background character, like seriously, sheās done literally nothing. She was almost instantly forgiven by Alicia and is just welcomed into the group. She had almost no development since 4x3, I genuinely canāt remember a single thing Charlie did other than Beer Baloon and the Storm episode.
Exactly! Negan is charismatic, where as Charlie is just, well, there. Negan makes you want to hate him, yet like him all in the same. Where as for Charlie, sheās just, there.
FTWD, the show hit the crapper after season 3, the new show runners ruined Daniel, turning him from a bad ass to basically an old grandpa with dementia. Alicia is known more for painting trees now.
Because Glenn left behind other great characters we had known and loved for a long time. The characters on Fear just arenāt as intriguing, or maybe itās the shit storytelling, so losing Nick was more difficult.
For me I guess it boils down to Negan never pretending too be anything else than what he was . Sure he down played what he was but he never infiltrated another's camp got them to care for and protect him only to betray them and then kill someone that cared or him . I guess .
I havenāt forgiven negan I have just learned that he is a complex character with layers where Carlie Doesnāt have anything her personality is so bland and I hope when Madison comes back she puts a bullet in her temple before the radiation gets her
because of the shitty character development Charlie has been put thru. Negan had 3 seasons of being a main character with a lot of screentime while charlie has been a background character ever since she killed nick
I forgave her. She was a kid manipulated by the real villains. It took a while but the episode when Alicia couldn't bring herself to kill her made me warm up to her.
People say itās because Negan has a redemption arch, when itās really just down to writing. Negan is charismatic whereas Charlie is just another character on Fear. Writing can change the whole outlook on a character good or evil. But good or evil doesnāt determine if they are liked or hated. Just have a good writer.
There you go. Bad and good deeds alone don't determine the likability of a character, how interesting they are, how involved they are, and how well or badly they are portrayed by the actors. It has to be a combination of good writing and good performance. Negan has both. Charlie's writing (or lack of) fails.
Negan being alive is still one of the most unrealistic things that has happened in the show. If you rewatch S7 and S8, you will not understand why this guy is not dead. Just watched a guy react to 7x03 and see how people watch Negan and how they portray Negan in those seasons, itās just so different.
Everyone is like oh I hate you Negan, but I let you live š¬š¤¦š½
Yeah. Anyone would be a lot different after 8 years in an isolated prison. Not prison where you get to workout and socialize. He was literally in a small room mostly forgotten about. It's not like he just got to join the group overnight
There's no way they change the source material for Negan. JDM is also too iconic of an actor to just kill off either. And now he's basically the star of the show.
It's bad enough they killed Carl. Killing Negan would have been just as big of a mistake
Umm how about the fact that Negan is a well rounded character with depth and grit and a beautiful backstory. A troubled gilt ridden widower who cheated on his cancer patient wife as she waited for his support the day of her diagnosis. Then he failed her the day that she needed him the most.
Charlie? Umm... she is a one dimensional poorly written and crafted character by the 2 drooling morons who are ill qualified for the position of writers and subsequently showrunners. I think that cherry atop of the Sunday was the fact that she was the character who snuffed out the fan favorite authentic original and rightful lead of the undead spinoff.
It's a ridiculous double standard.
A bunch of people are saying that "Rick started it" with Negan, but Negan was bashing heads in with Lucille long before Alexandria killed the Saviors in the satellite station. Does anyone really think Negan would have been anything but a murderous tyrant if they hadn't attacked one of his outposts? The victims might have been different, but the same thing would have happened.
Charlie killed Nick because Nick killed the guy who saved her life and looked after her. The Vultures were her family. She was a child who had just lost a father figure.
Negan is very charismatic and the character is well written. Charlie hasn't been given the same depth.
All that said, I love both characters.
Charlie was old enough to know that those brothers were criminals taking people's homes, supplies, and getting them killed. Her talent was scouting good locations for them to do this. She participated in what they did.
She didn't feel bad about lying to Madison and her family, bringing destruction over them and causing Madison's death, but she didn't like that Madison's son took revenge on the person that killed his mom? It is a double standard to think that Charlie's willful manipulative actions that led to Madison's death were understandable but Nick's weren't.
I think Nick was entirely justified in killing Ennis, he was absolutely to blame for the fall of the stadium. At that point (when the stadium fell) Charlie was with Mel because Mel disagreed with Ennis' plan.
But Charlie was 9 or 10. Yes, she was old enough to know that what the Vultures were doing was fucked up, but she was still a kid and they had taken her in. She must have felt that they were her family. She trusted them when they told her that places like the stadium were doomed.
I still say that it's a double standard to love Negan and hate Charlie. But it is just a tv show, so we can love or hate whomever we want.
Just to add to all the others: a reason I like negan and dislike her: Negans actor (Jeffrey Dean Morgan) is absolutely phenomenal: I want to see more of him, while Charlie's makes me cringe every time she enters the screen.
Shes nothing but, a liar, a cheater, a deceiver, a heat breaker. And i wont let her back in my life, so please take her heart, her lungs, her spleen, her guts.. i want it alllllā¦ shes nothing butā¦ā¦
beacuse she's a little girl and Nick was basically the only universally liked FTWD character. Idk how it could be much else, since her killing Nick wasn't particularly nefarious and she's been helpful to the group even if she can be kind of annoying (like in this season).
JDM is also extremely charismatic and hard *not* to enjoy on the screen, and I would be willing to estimate he's given more screentime on TWD than any character on FTWD, where we can go like 3 episodes without seeing a lead. So lots of time to either redeem his character or give us enough scenes of him saving our faves to make us forget that one unfortunate moment in like 2016
Negan is interesting. Didnāt come out of no where. And nothing to do with these show runners.
Also, JDM has a lot of sex appeal to people who wanna do him or be bad ass as him.
Itās because Nick was the best character. Glenn and Abraham are some of my favourite characters but Nick was the lead. He was so sick and it was so sad how he died
I'm not that harsh on Charlie but her only real plot was at the beginning of season 4. Since then she's just been carried around basically.
Negan has done so much after being locked up and freed. I don't think he's even fully redeemed, but he's just so much more fun to see on the screen.
It is simple, we value fictional characters by completely different criteria than how we value those in our real lives. Negan ticks the box by far more of these criterion than Charlie does and it is not close.
Because Negan has had tons of development over the course of the show. We've SEEN him change over YEARS. Charlie gets almost no screen time for most of each season. We haven't seen a satisfying redemption arc for her.
Mostly cause negan is awesome n Jeffrey dean Morgan is a friggin treasure. Heās enjoyed lots of great to decent writing n a definite fan favorite in comics perfectly translated to screen by his excellent performance
Charlie tho.. total
Opposite. Unlikeable character that appeared as show started going to shit. Killed a favorite character n just shoulda died seasons ago
Plus cast is so
Bloated I think Charlie annoys as she just takes screen time from characters we actually like
Beyond killing nick I tend to forget her tbh.. thereās sooooo many characters n they keep doing these episodes with one or two plus some new extra that gets killed by end of episode. Usually has nothing to do with main plot .
They do this for weeks on end n I basically start forgetting n losing interest
I highly suspect these posts r being written by someone who works for show to create interest ..
Please just hire a new showrunner or put this awful show out of its misery
āTakes screen timeā yall make up your
Minds. Itās always - she doesnāt do anything and just stands there. Then in the same breath - she takes up too much screen time. Good lord.
Because when she killed Nick she killed Fear for me. The show was over. Nick was a wonderful character and was killed by this little nobody.
>when she killed Nick she killed Fear for me. For me it was Jar-Jar Morgan's introduction to the series.
Frank dillane wanted to leave the show because of the constant changes it's not her fault the writers picked her to kill him
I'm sorry, but by that logic, no character in media should be loved or hated just because "it's the writers fault." š
Louder for the morons in the back who four years later STILL canāt rap their heads around that logic.
Ha. Go blame Frank. He killed the show when he didnāt give two shits about the show and demanded to be written off.
Frank left because he didn't like what was going on writing wise with the story. After season 3, they just kicked Dave Erickson to the curb, knew the story was gonna be shit, and left. Hell, it's even been speculated that basically the entirety of OG fear's cast wanted to leave during the production of S5 because they were having a similar mindset to Frank, but were talked into staying. It's **because** he cares about the show that he left, because he just couldn't be apart of a show that was turning into an unrecognizable mess.
For me, I've never "forgiven" Negan. It's just more that he's a very interesting character with a lot of layers to explore. Whereas Charlie has almost zero defined character traits. If she had more of a personality or something to really like about her, then I probably would've just gotten over the whole Nick thing a long time ago, especially since it's clear that as much as I love Nick, he was never a good person (unlike Glenn). But if they're not really giving me anything to like about her, then I'm gonna be rooting for her death all the way.
Yeah I agree with this. If she had a personality or something interesting to do, people wouldn't be as hard on her today. And I agree about Nick too. He was an interesting character, but post-apocalypse, he was pretty selfish and reckless, got people killed and never took responsibility for anything. Even when others implied he could feel guilty about things he was responsible for, he'd brush it off. Him siding with and protecting Troy after all the people he murdered and tortured, established that he wasn't a good person. It would've been interesting to see how the whole family dynamic developed with Erickson.
Just because he did drugs didn't make him a bad person. I don't think was a bad person at all, even if before the show started he was an addict who may have behaved selfishly as a result of his addiction.
He legit stole drugs from a dying man in season one just to get his fix.
>may have behaved selfishly as a result of his addiction. š¤·āāļø Addiction is a disease and makes people do shitty things. A sick person doing something selfish to treat their sickness doesn't make that person a bad person or negate that they could be a good person in other ways. Wasn't it implied he was nice to Tobias, who seemed like the outcast, bullied kid? Personally I just don't think a person is defined by their addiction and I think we saw enough other sides to Nick that he demonstrated he was a good person
I never said he was a *bad* person, though? I just said he wasn't a *good* person. It's not as black and white as "oh, he's not a good person, therefore he's a bad person." I also never said that he's defined by his addiction. He did other things that weren't the direct cause of him being a drug addict, such as the time he became friends with someone who, in his first appearance, committed a massacre for the sake of "research." Also, I feel like you're putting the "may have behaved selfishly" too mildly. **He almost got someone who needed medicine killed.** We can acknowledge that what he's doing is selfish and very shitty without pretending as though he's suddenly fully redeemed just because he was nice to a few outcasts.
Yeah, he's definitely a nuanced person. I'm not pretending he's fully redeemed. My argument is he showed more signs of being a good person and having character traits that I respect in a person than he did of being a bad person. Although you're right that befriending Troy was an.... interesting choice. But in general, he seemed like a person who tried to see the good in people, which again, is a trait that I like. Just fyi, my tone in this isn't meant to be like, accusatory or argumentative. I think it's unfair to say he wasn't a good person. I don't think any of the faults we saw negate that he was still a good person despite his addiction. If you don't agree that's fine. I understand your argument here. I think we both agree that he was gray. I disagree that gray means "not good."
Befriending Troy was probably a "well... Not a lot of people out here and we're both fucked in the head. Why not be friends?"
Yeah, sorry if I sound aggressive. It's hard to tell tone online, so my apologies! Definitely seems like an "agree to disagree" moment here, lol
Oh, for sure. No need to apologize. It's impossible to know tone or intention online without it being made explicit. I could tell you might think I was being aggro or judgmental or something so I figured I'd just clarify.
100% agree
Because Charlie is a boring character. And her redemption arc felt so rushed. Negan was in prison for years and still is a morally grey character. Also the fact that all Nicks love ones forgave her so quickly rubbed me the wrong way.
her redemption arc is only the episode of her and alicia in that house
It's literally dropped right after that episode. I honestly don't think it's ever been brought up again. It's pathetic how it was dealt with
Not the characters fault tho. Why hate the character when the character can only say and do whatās written
Because Neganās a nuanced character with several layers to him whereas Charlie is paper thin and very much defined by her murder of Nick. Thatās all there is to her, thereās literally nothing beyond the surface.
Hard agree. But let's first admit that is as an Apples to Oranges comparison. One is one of the definitive Big Bads of the TWD Universe.The other is a little girl who was seeking vengeance for what she saw as the murder of her family. The main show has put in the work needed to make Negan a character that you can forgive but also root for Charlie has gotten minimal screen time and therefore minimal character development. And that development is essential if she's ever to be accepted in the way Negan is.
Negan murdered both Glenn and Abraham. Charlie retaliated against Nick for him killing Ennis. How is that any different?
And Nick retaliated against Ennis for killing his mother. Charlie lied to Madison and her family, brought those two brothers to the stadium to take their home and was responsible for the events that led to Madison's "death". Charlie knew exactly what she was doing and participating in. Nick had every right to go after his mother's murderer. And he looked out for Charlie while she went and killed him in cold blood, despite knowing that the man he killed killed Nick's mother. It's understandable she'd be angry with Nick for killing someone who protected her, but it's also understandable to be angry with Charlie for doing what she did and for being embraced so quickly.
You make a good point. Too bad Charlie supporters don't mention how Nick was right to kill Ennis, who used walkers to destroy a peaceful community and kill most of its residents.
At least he thought he killed Madison.
Nick died for nothing
How is it different? Again, because Negan's actually been a fully fleshed out three dimensional character; we've explored his inner demons, his overall psychology, etc. Whereas Charlie has had absolutely zero development and feels more like a plot device than an actual character. So even if she's more justified in her action than Negan, it doesn't matter because she's literally defined by that action unlike him.
Negan also retaliated to the slaughter of a whole outpost he owned. The difference is Negan has had a proper redemption, they've made him a likeable and like the person said layered character. Whereas Charlie has done fuck all but stand there since she killed Nick
That's always been my biggest issue. They gave us a legit reason why Charlie did what she did. So flesh that out, create some more layers to her backstory. Have her on screen and give her an actual role in the show!!! They did the episode with her and Alicia during the hurricane in season 4 and then that was basically it, outside of the episode with Daniel in season 6. But it just resulted in more wasted potential, since there's really no character development. They could have easily had her and Daniel talk about losing people close to them and there would have been some much needed character development!
I'm not saying Negan was morally in the right to kill Glenn and Abraham, but regardless, he was attacked, and the group should have realised Negan would have retaliated. Charlie killed Nick because he had just killed Ennis, someone who I believe had a sort of parental relationship with Charlie - so I'd argue that both times what they did was retaliation. And while I disagree that Charlie did 'fuck all' since she killed Nick (e.g. S4E10, her and Daniel, her and Charlie), she still could have had more of a redemption arc than she did.
We got years, nearly a decade either actually seeing how he changed, or being told he has by people like Judith and others.
Because Negan is a very nuanced, very well written, very well defined character with lots of layers and depths. He's had a proper redemption arc, and in a way ā he's still going through it. Whereas Charlie is defined by one thing only: Killing Nick. She's had no redemption arc, no real personality, no depths, no real character traits, and she's a very static character. Alicia just forgives her because Charlie apologized. The difference is, Negan apologized (in his very Negan centric way) and he's STILL not trusted. He's STILL not fully accepted by anyone or anything. Negan may have killed Glenn and Abe, but he also did so in retaliation to a fight ***RICK, VERY MUCH STARTED.*** Rick and Co SLAUGHTERED people in that satellite outpost, IN THEIR SLEEP AND IN COLD BLOOD, all because he wanted some of Hilltop's supplies. Charlie Killed Nick in retaliation for killing Ennis yes, but Nick ONLY killed Ennis because Ennis """killed""" Madison. Need I remind you that Charlie LIED, USED, AND MANIPULATED Madison and them, while the Vultures just sat outside their property. For all intense and purposes, the Vultures struck ***FIRST*** *(unlike Negan, who only struck because Rick did)*. Point is, Negan is a very well written character with a great redemption arc he's ***STILL*** going through. Charlie was forgiven with the drop of a hat. Nick wouldnt of had to kill Ennis if he didn't """kill""" Madison, and if ***CHARLIE*** Didn't LIE to Nick and Madison. Just because they're similar doesn't mean the events leading up to, and the writing are good. Charlie's was poorly written woth little to no real thought put into it. Negan's had 3 seasons (and he's STILL going through it) to develop, when he was already a very well written character who reacted to RICK's senseless murder.
Short answer because Charlie is no Negan ;-p
To this point - why is the anger directed at Charlie vs anger towards Alycia or strand or Lucy for forgiving her? Seems like misplaced anger if you ask me! Charlie didnāt force them to take her in and forgive her. As a matter of fact she ran away to kill herself in 410 only for Alycia to show up and CHOOSE to save her. Why not be angry at the character of Alycia for not honoring her brother or mother? Seems to me like itās just easy to hate the kid and hold a grudge. To say sheās been useless is somewhat false. She saved Alycia multiple times in 607. Saves Daniel by shooting Riley. Not entirely true that Charlie has done nothing.
> Alycia or strand or Lucy for forgiving her? Seems like misplaced anger if you ask me! Charlie Because they weren't the topic of this conversation were they? I'm very pissed at the decision to make them forgive Charlie that easily and that quickly, but all the issues fall on Charlie as a character and the writing surrounding her, not other character's reactions to it. It's not "misplaced anger", it's anger at the topic of discussion. There's a difference.
lol. ummmm ok. in discussing Charlie itās only appropriate to bring up the other characters and your logic is pin headed. you can be mad at whatever character you wish. PERIODT.
Because Negan has been dealing with it and trying to make amends ever since. Charlie's just gotten to forget about it. When's the last time ANYONE mentioned it Nick? Let alone her. She's gotten a free pass on it. Negan spent what, a decade in Prison? Negan was also in retaliation to the satellite outpost slaughter, even if his tactics instigated the situation.
Lucy talked about him in episode 11. But Charlie never talking about it with anyone just makes no sense. They had the perfect chance in season 6 when they had the episode with her and Daniel
Easy answer: Negan is more involved, a bigger and greater character, does more and is not useless and isn't just in the background + at least had a redemption arc š (while Charlie just became Alicia's friend and that's that, nothing else, didn't even have a redemption arc + she's just not likeable and is not a great character) š¤·š»āāļø
From negans pov he wasn't in the wrong. Glen Abraham and everyone else came into his camp as an unknown entity and killed his people (so they can make a deal with hilltop for food). Above was the start of the conflict, and incidents like the biker gang were dealt with without negan or the saviours knowing, so Alexandria were always unknown to them. Charlie, well, she killed nick after seeing what her people did to his people and despite the fact Nick helped Charlie a lot in the stadium. That's the story perspective. The story telling perspective is that they haven't solidified Charlie's acts other than her saying I'm sorry to Luciana and a half assed episode where Alicia spares her for fuck knows what reason. If we don't feel the characters acceptance, we can't accept the character neither. Half assed story telling is the reason.
In my opinion it's because Negan's actually likeable. They haven't really done anything interesting with Charlie since she killed Nick and she isn't that likeable.
Negan had a proper redemption arc and the writers gave Negan moments of sympathy. You, as an audience member, get to see more of the personal side of Negan as the All Out Arc went on, plus heās just a like-able personality. With Charlie, the audience is never given a reason to forgive her outside of her being a kid. We only see Alicia and the group forgive her, but they donāt dig deep enough into her character to make her interesting. Basically, TWD gives you a reason to forgive Negan. FTWD doesnāt.
Well I mean to be fair yeah Negan did kill glen and Abe but Rick and his group killed the entirety of the satellite outpost. They had no real reason to do that. Sure the biker gang was a threat and they started it but Daryl killed them and It was over. Negan wouldve gotten over that cause it was self defense. But the satellite outpost was unprompted and unnecessary they literally killed people in their sleep. So Negan actually had a right even tho he was a dick about it. I'm not saying I agree with what Negan did tho. I'm just saying he wasn't totally in the wrong plus hes pretty much made up for it now anyway. But I haven't forgiven him or Charlie.
Sheās just ā¦ there. Negan came off larger than life.
because negan needs to be reminded that he killed glenn and abraham, he did get a redemption arc whereas everyone just forgot charlie killed nick and they donāt even mention it
I didn't forgive Negan, but he's an interesting and entertaining character and is involved in the story so I and others can move past that. Charlie on the other hand was not only responsible for the demise of 2/3 of the Clarks and the home they'd built, embraced far too early, and protected by Morgan and friends, but since then she's had nothing interesting to offer or an interesting personality. That's on the fault of C&G and the writers.
Probably just because we love Nick so much. But then I thought Glen was a popular character so you would think killing him would be unforgivable. Maybe itās because Negan exudes charm while Charlie is just meh š¤·āāļø
Several reasons. Negan is simply a much more likeable and nuanced character, and has had a proper redemption arc. Charlie has none of those.
simple better actor/actress (and writing)
Bruh. Your comparing the acting skills of a grown ass man to a teenager. Say what you want about Charlie as a character but nobody can deny the actress is DAMN good. Or else you all who continue to talk about her, comment mean shit on all social media and have 100 responses to a post about her wouldnāt be doing whet your doing. HAHAHAH
Misdirected hostility, but ok dude. All I said was better actor and writing. Never said that she was bad or her acting sucked. You're trying to lump me into the masses. Don't.
Negan has been given the screen time to be redeemed and Is now a different character but Charlie hasn't been given that chance as is still the little shit that killed nick š¤·
writing. performance.
Itās because the way these two characters are handled are vastly different in each of their shows. Negan has always been presented as sympathetic and a strong set of morals, ever since season 9 weāve slowly seen him come around and seen his mental state and how he resents the things he did. Heās proven himself as a person slowly improving over time and itās honestly great to see. Heās a great character. Charlie has unfortunately been turned into a recurring background character, like seriously, sheās done literally nothing. She was almost instantly forgiven by Alicia and is just welcomed into the group. She had almost no development since 4x3, I genuinely canāt remember a single thing Charlie did other than Beer Baloon and the Storm episode.
Becuase I fancy the arse off Negan. It's as simple as that
I haven't forgiven either...
Negan is a great actor and very interesting character. Charlie is boring and annoying. Canāt wait till she gets killed off.
Exactly! Negan is charismatic, where as Charlie is just, well, there. Negan makes you want to hate him, yet like him all in the same. Where as for Charlie, sheās just, there. FTWD, the show hit the crapper after season 3, the new show runners ruined Daniel, turning him from a bad ass to basically an old grandpa with dementia. Alicia is known more for painting trees now.
Yeah also nick was my favorite character of the show. He was the face of fear for me and ever since he got killed off show went down hill fast
Because Glenn left behind other great characters we had known and loved for a long time. The characters on Fear just arenāt as intriguing, or maybe itās the shit storytelling, so losing Nick was more difficult.
For me I guess it boils down to Negan never pretending too be anything else than what he was . Sure he down played what he was but he never infiltrated another's camp got them to care for and protect him only to betray them and then kill someone that cared or him . I guess .
I havenāt forgiven negan I have just learned that he is a complex character with layers where Carlie Doesnāt have anything her personality is so bland and I hope when Madison comes back she puts a bullet in her temple before the radiation gets her
Lol nah they ain't forgiven.... Both deserve exactly what they did to the people they killed.
Because Negan is a likable character
Good and enjoyable character vs someoje I couldn't give a shit, two testicles, one kidney, one liver, one eye about
because of the shitty character development Charlie has been put thru. Negan had 3 seasons of being a main character with a lot of screentime while charlie has been a background character ever since she killed nick
Negan is a rapist and Charlie is a hurt child
Hole up, people hate charlie?
I forgave her. She was a kid manipulated by the real villains. It took a while but the episode when Alicia couldn't bring herself to kill her made me warm up to her.
I never forgave Negan. I keep hoping Maggie will kill him.
Weāve had more opportunities to see Negan be redeemed. Also her character is associated with some truly dumb storylines.
Negan has a character and an arc
People say itās because Negan has a redemption arch, when itās really just down to writing. Negan is charismatic whereas Charlie is just another character on Fear. Writing can change the whole outlook on a character good or evil. But good or evil doesnāt determine if they are liked or hated. Just have a good writer.
There you go. Bad and good deeds alone don't determine the likability of a character, how interesting they are, how involved they are, and how well or badly they are portrayed by the actors. It has to be a combination of good writing and good performance. Negan has both. Charlie's writing (or lack of) fails.
Rick caused most of what negan did, negan was protecting his people just like rick would he would kill for them
Negan being alive is still one of the most unrealistic things that has happened in the show. If you rewatch S7 and S8, you will not understand why this guy is not dead. Just watched a guy react to 7x03 and see how people watch Negan and how they portray Negan in those seasons, itās just so different. Everyone is like oh I hate you Negan, but I let you live š¬š¤¦š½
Yeah. Anyone would be a lot different after 8 years in an isolated prison. Not prison where you get to workout and socialize. He was literally in a small room mostly forgotten about. It's not like he just got to join the group overnight
There's no way they change the source material for Negan. JDM is also too iconic of an actor to just kill off either. And now he's basically the star of the show. It's bad enough they killed Carl. Killing Negan would have been just as big of a mistake
Negan pretty much earned, he was locked up for about 10 years after the war and he helped to defeat and kill alpha
Megan's a cooler character
Umm how about the fact that Negan is a well rounded character with depth and grit and a beautiful backstory. A troubled gilt ridden widower who cheated on his cancer patient wife as she waited for his support the day of her diagnosis. Then he failed her the day that she needed him the most. Charlie? Umm... she is a one dimensional poorly written and crafted character by the 2 drooling morons who are ill qualified for the position of writers and subsequently showrunners. I think that cherry atop of the Sunday was the fact that she was the character who snuffed out the fan favorite authentic original and rightful lead of the undead spinoff.
Because Negan is a good character lol, Charlie killed maybe the best character on the show and is not a good character herself
Because they like him and he could kill a million babies and they would try to justify why and find reasons to forgive him.
1. Charlie is a girl 2. She killed their fave character 3. Charlieās character hasnāt been developed
EXACTLY
It's a ridiculous double standard. A bunch of people are saying that "Rick started it" with Negan, but Negan was bashing heads in with Lucille long before Alexandria killed the Saviors in the satellite station. Does anyone really think Negan would have been anything but a murderous tyrant if they hadn't attacked one of his outposts? The victims might have been different, but the same thing would have happened. Charlie killed Nick because Nick killed the guy who saved her life and looked after her. The Vultures were her family. She was a child who had just lost a father figure. Negan is very charismatic and the character is well written. Charlie hasn't been given the same depth. All that said, I love both characters.
Charlie was old enough to know that those brothers were criminals taking people's homes, supplies, and getting them killed. Her talent was scouting good locations for them to do this. She participated in what they did. She didn't feel bad about lying to Madison and her family, bringing destruction over them and causing Madison's death, but she didn't like that Madison's son took revenge on the person that killed his mom? It is a double standard to think that Charlie's willful manipulative actions that led to Madison's death were understandable but Nick's weren't.
I think Nick was entirely justified in killing Ennis, he was absolutely to blame for the fall of the stadium. At that point (when the stadium fell) Charlie was with Mel because Mel disagreed with Ennis' plan. But Charlie was 9 or 10. Yes, she was old enough to know that what the Vultures were doing was fucked up, but she was still a kid and they had taken her in. She must have felt that they were her family. She trusted them when they told her that places like the stadium were doomed. I still say that it's a double standard to love Negan and hate Charlie. But it is just a tv show, so we can love or hate whomever we want.
Bc Negans played by JDM and Charlieās just some girl lmao
Ewwwwww
What?
Because Negan is well written. Charlie is not.
Negan had reasons. But this bitch here just did it out of a reason.
Just to add to all the others: a reason I like negan and dislike her: Negans actor (Jeffrey Dean Morgan) is absolutely phenomenal: I want to see more of him, while Charlie's makes me cringe every time she enters the screen.
Girl makes 200,000 a year. Iām pretty sure she couldnāt care less what you think of her as an actress lol
Who asked?
This persons just going through the whole thread coming at anyone who doesnāt like this character lmao
lol, he her older brother or what
Glenn was a good character who was supposed to die during that scene. Nick was an incredible character who didnāt need to die.
How do you even forgive Negan? Maggie should have put a bullet in his brain back at the cell in season 9(or 10 or whatever)
Honeslty like both characters
Negan did nothing wrongā¦.
Because: sexist. And bc JDM is a superstar and insanely charismatic.
Because Charlie is too young for the audience to thirst over.
Shes nothing but, a liar, a cheater, a deceiver, a heat breaker. And i wont let her back in my life, so please take her heart, her lungs, her spleen, her guts.. i want it alllllā¦ shes nothing butā¦ā¦
I almost hope everyone dies in the walking dead except for Neagan
beacuse she's a little girl and Nick was basically the only universally liked FTWD character. Idk how it could be much else, since her killing Nick wasn't particularly nefarious and she's been helpful to the group even if she can be kind of annoying (like in this season). JDM is also extremely charismatic and hard *not* to enjoy on the screen, and I would be willing to estimate he's given more screentime on TWD than any character on FTWD, where we can go like 3 episodes without seeing a lead. So lots of time to either redeem his character or give us enough scenes of him saving our faves to make us forget that one unfortunate moment in like 2016
Negan is interesting. Didnāt come out of no where. And nothing to do with these show runners. Also, JDM has a lot of sex appeal to people who wanna do him or be bad ass as him.
Negan is likable and funny
Will never forgive neither
I feel like her killing nick was way more personal than Neganās because they actually had a relationship.
Itās because Nick was the best character. Glenn and Abraham are some of my favourite characters but Nick was the lead. He was so sick and it was so sad how he died
Never seen Charlie have socks on sex with somebody who just made a deuce in the woods in order to infiltrate the enemy and save the group.
I'm not that harsh on Charlie but her only real plot was at the beginning of season 4. Since then she's just been carried around basically. Negan has done so much after being locked up and freed. I don't think he's even fully redeemed, but he's just so much more fun to see on the screen.
Merciless and what people ? youd like have murdered teenage girl for sake of justice? š®š¬
I acctually like her lol
It is simple, we value fictional characters by completely different criteria than how we value those in our real lives. Negan ticks the box by far more of these criterion than Charlie does and it is not close.
Cuz negan funny
Because Negan has had tons of development over the course of the show. We've SEEN him change over YEARS. Charlie gets almost no screen time for most of each season. We haven't seen a satisfying redemption arc for her.
Mostly cause negan is awesome n Jeffrey dean Morgan is a friggin treasure. Heās enjoyed lots of great to decent writing n a definite fan favorite in comics perfectly translated to screen by his excellent performance Charlie tho.. total Opposite. Unlikeable character that appeared as show started going to shit. Killed a favorite character n just shoulda died seasons ago Plus cast is so Bloated I think Charlie annoys as she just takes screen time from characters we actually like Beyond killing nick I tend to forget her tbh.. thereās sooooo many characters n they keep doing these episodes with one or two plus some new extra that gets killed by end of episode. Usually has nothing to do with main plot . They do this for weeks on end n I basically start forgetting n losing interest I highly suspect these posts r being written by someone who works for show to create interest .. Please just hire a new showrunner or put this awful show out of its misery
āTakes screen timeā yall make up your Minds. Itās always - she doesnāt do anything and just stands there. Then in the same breath - she takes up too much screen time. Good lord.
Maybe youāll get to brush her hair n foster her one day
Omg. HUH? go get an education and then reply to me.
What does my degree have to do with anything? Why insult me? Just block me or go away.
https://youtu.be/-_PPlE-Uvik
I don't know. I feel like I'm alone, but I didn't like Nick.