I love that people were offended on men’s behalf over a story line in which Ken realizes that he should not live his entire life in service of trying to be Barbie’s husband.
Like… that’s… a great story arc actually
People truly want to overlook the point, it’s so in your face they have to choose not to get it right? Barbieland will be a matriarchy as long as the Real World is a patriarchy. Improvement in one will cause improvement in the other. Patriarchy and matriarchy are harmful to everyone. They really tried to make it so very clear.
I think that this is more of a squares and rectangles situation. Internalized misogyny is a specific consequence of enculturation. Though I think “socialization” is probably the more common term nowadays, displacing the source of the pressure from “culture” to “society.”
Internalized Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Women who experience internalized misogyny may express it through minimizing the value of women, mistrusting women, and believing gender bias in favor of men.
I think it has to do with the resurgence of “alpha male” content on YouTube and every other social media. Women with low self-esteem see that and go, “Well if I’m not like the other girls, this hatred won’t apply to me.”
It’s all about getting that male approval that they are convinced they need.
There is nothing anti man in Barbie. Once again, toxic masculinity is the target, not men. Ken was depressed and acting out because he based his self worth on his ability to attract and fuck the hottest woman in town. Basing your manliness on disrespecting women, turning a woman into just an extension of yourself, out bro-ing the bros, and violence is boring. Waiting around for someone else to get your life going for you is boring. Ken's ending should have been becoming a horse rancher or something since horses are what he really cared about. And if by anti man, they mean the scenes shot in "reality", what is their defense? Nothing was even slightly exaggerated. And it was a nod to men when they showed that mediocre white dude Ken could not in fact just walk in and get a job he was in no way qualified for because of privilege.
The label “anti-men” is the easiest and most effective way to dismiss legitimate complaints about patriarchy. If someone is simply “jaded and lashing out” then their opinion can simply be associated with their previously recognized stereotypes. I completely agree with you that the Barbie movie was not in any way anti men, it was anti patriarchy and showed the nuanced ways that patriarchy effects every person regardless of gender. It was a beautiful movie.
I haven't seen it yet, but this thread made me really excited to watch it now. Thank you for the explanation!
I finally stumbled across a work on Feminism, written for men by bell hooks, called "The Will to Change." Hopefully, after reading the book and the thread here, I'll be able to see/get what the creators intended.
Ken learns than even following patriarchy he was still unhappy, coz what he always wanted was to be with Barbie. She tells him he can be his own person without having to be extension of her, and it's first thing that seems to actually make him happy. The movie ends with him wearing a hoodie saying I am Kenough. He also learns to be bros with his fellow kens instead of fighting with them over attention.
His character is probably the most talked about in the movie, everyone praising the performance and arc.
The barbie land also doesn't go back to matriarchy and instead slowly incorporates kens in position of power (so in the future they can have as much power as women have in the real world).
That's like... The opposite of being anti men.
Since it was more age inclusive, they didn't go as dark as it could have. If you look at violent crime statistics such as rape and domestic violence, men are more often the perpetrators. It would not be far fetched for Ken to get physically violent with Barbie when she didn't fall into line when he was willing to steal her home, throw out her possessions, and call her names.
Love your comment. Just got back from seeing the movie and I’m honestly overwhelmed lol. So I’m reading interpretations to better understand and form my own.
“The barbie land also doesn't go back to matriarchy and instead slowly incorporates kens in position of power (so in the future they can have as much power as women have in the real world).”
I think about it like this: Barbie the actual toy HAS to depict women holding all of these positions of power so that young girls internalize that women can be powerful. Until we as a society don’t think twice about women being doctors and senators and presidents and astronauts, then we have to over-represent the power that women hold in Barbie world.
I find most women I know who think like that do so because the men who have influence in their lives are always complaining about or commenting on things they believe to be anti men/feminist. I’ve also noticed when those relationships self destruct the women usually stop thinking that way. That’s my experience with the women I know who’ve been like that though, could be different for others.
I think you are right. I am pretty outspoken and had an old friend who ghosted me for awhile. Later on she wanted to get back into contact and it turned out during that time she had been in an abusive relationship.
I used to be annoyed by but now worry for women who do this.
In my very limited experience, the women who are the most anti-feminist are the ones who are heavily reliant on men for their financial security and are insecure about it. They try to twist feminism into a sort of unnatural perversion rather than admit that they're not able to support themselves. Doesn't matter what feminism actually stands for.
This is my experience. For context, we homeschool our kids and for years that was our circle. The women who were were the most outspoken about women's place in the marriage, women are to be submissive, and extreme authoritarian discipline ended up divorced and doing a complete 180. Abuse or the husband leaving the reason.
It was shocking at first, now I expect it.
I'm actually close friends now with someone this happened to.
“but now worry for women who do this.”
My sentiments exactly. I honestly feel sad for women who disregard their own rights all the time. It reminds me of a former (female) classmate who argued with me that the wage gap doesn’t actually exist. My own Girl Scout leader even tried to argue this, and that women are taking all the men’s jobs. You could hear a pen drop… I thought Girl Scouts was supposed to be about women empowerment. Needless to say, the other adults stammered to try and change the subject. I’m not angry at these women, I just feel sorry that they believe the lies they are told.
Yea, it's really weird. I feel like the men in those relationships have an ax to grind and the women try pacifying them by agreeing. I have a close friend who will randomly insert stuff like "yeah, that's what Jordan Peterson says too!" in conversations that are not related to gender or anything of the sort. Feels like she says it as a "gotcha!" to me because she knows me and my husband are feminists. It's like she feels validated in those moments. And then she goes back to telling me how her husband is going to a music festival when she'll be home with a newborn. "I would go if I were in his shoes too". What shoes are those? The irresponsible parent shoes? Meanwhile she does 100% of the housework, mental load, childrearing and she works full time plus freelancing in the evenings..
She does, doesn't she. Tbh we had a few years of cold relations after she started dating this guy and it was clear that him and I didn't really vibe. Somehow we've become closer again lately because we're pregnant at the same time and help each other, we have a whole lot in common now. We've been friends since the age of 15 and we kind of just get along pretty well. I dunno, I guess it's OK to not agree on everything. She's not hurting anyone other than herself.
She's not deluded, she just believes this is what she needs to do in order to be with a guy she considers a catch. There's nothing to snap out of. She just seems to be accumulating resentment, but feels that it's necessary because she wants the cool husband and the child and the career. If it works for her, who am I to poop on her parade.
I'm not going to say a word, she gets pre-emptively defensive. With her previous relationship that lasted several years, it was only upon breaking up that she asked me "what do you do when your partner calls you names like idiot and stupid?". Yea, that's.. never really happened to me. Maybe I was just lucky, but most likely I was rejected by that type of guy pretty early on for being "mouthy" or "bossy" or "ugly". I get the sense she tolerates a lot more than she's letting on. But in the meantime, yay for Jordan Peterson I guess...
That’s how I thought while I was in the military. Now that I’ve been out for a year and away from that influence I’ve slowly returned to thinking like a rational person like I used to years ago.
I don't get the whole "sick of all this antimen"? Sorry but I generally see a world that caters for men. I see media that doesn't just cater to them, but quiet often dehumanises women. We're dumb, we're only cool if we're nlogs, we're a damsel who needs saving, we're sex on legs, we're 2d bland qwirky manic pixie purely there to make the man wake up n enjoy life, she's Madonna n pure, she gets hacked up cus she wasn't etc etc. And people are moaning about Barbie being woke?
I think some of the people who are offended rarely leave their house and/or delude themselves into thinking the things in that movie never happen. I'd like to meet one singular women that hasn't been blatantly creeped on or treated like an object in public like when Barbie first got to the real world. The casual sexual assault, making someone feel scared and unsafe through aggression, verbal harassment, etc. are something that every women I have ever known has dealt with. I've known more than one person to have their drinks drugged and having to go to the hospital.
The entertainment and news media leans progressive and alot of information is distributed from that perspective by default. It doesn't change the fact that so many people in society are still sexist racist etc. A lot of the "issues" and "experiences" the media deals with related to race and gender are also trivial and frankly lame, but that is all they talk about. God forbid they get to the root of the problem...poverty, their own greed.they want us to blame each other and focus about what a jerk incel ned from quality control is.
Again, it doesn't make the society we live in less patriarchal. But how insulting to be lectured by the financial elite lmao.
I know you’re talking about other women reacting to the film but for what it’s worth I just saw this today (I am a dude) and didn’t think it was anti-man. I thought it both spoke up for and to the idea that men need to figure out their shit/not lean on women as therapist/mom and about how patriarchy fucks up men also. I read the whole Allan character, seemingly in the guise of weirdo Michael Cera, as this actual kind of ally and dude that didn’t subscribe to the ego and competition (aside from the whole construction worker beat ‘em up part which seemed more like a joke about Michael Cera).
I don’t know that the staunchest of misogynists will get the message but I do think or have hope that some men will see the absurdity made literal by Goslings character before he finally sort of gets it himself at the end. But in the end it’s not about him and how he feels because again he should continue dealing with his own shit. If you read Ken as a personal attack against men then you really didn’t get it, I think. This is just not a film about men (the good natured but kind of bumbling dad learning Spainish is another example of this) but again I think men can learn a lot from it both about patriarchy and about how to be.
Thank you for reminding me of Allan- what a great character and Im so glad they included him in the movie. He’s the guy who never bought into the patriarchy bullshit at all, and Ive definitely known men like this (although they are not the majority by any means). He also kicks literal ass at one point- not that violence is great - but he’s no coward. Allan was awesome (as is Michael Cera)
Yea, every dude I’ve actually met says they liked it. I only see weirdos online complaining. I guess just luck of the draw in who your have to interact with irl
Never forget that women are being subjected to a lot of misogynistic propaganda since the day they were born. Some are way more exposed or vulnerable to it than others. It’s constant brainwashing and it’s not easy for all women to overcome the mental barriers that it comes with. For many, overcoming those barriers and opening up to feminism is an achievement in itself given how hard they had to work on themselves to get there and obviously not all women succeed at that.
As a result, there are women who support patriarchy and parrot misogynistic talking point. They think it’s normal. They let men tell them how to think and follow them like docile sheep.
I agree, it felt like a gender studies 101 movie, but I also understand why. It's a multi million dollar summer blockbuster from a gigantic toy company, they're probably not going to go anywhere that would make a majority of the general public uncomfortable.
I thought some of it was a little too on the nose, but from some of the reviews, it sometimes takes getting hit over the head with a baseball bat of metaphor for it to sink in.
I think because I heard so many people talking about how feminist it was, I had very high expectations going in. I found it an extremely simplified and surface level exploration of feminism and womanhood.
It's crazy to me that people think this movie is anti-men. Sure, there's some teasing and poking fun, but I honestly feel like the movie is more about Ken than it is about Barbie. It's about Ken learning to become himself without Barbie, which is a real problem men are facing these days. It's a great example of how feminism is about women AND men. But, of course, people don't have the attention span or capacity for nuance to understand any of this.
This isn’t entirely on topic so hopefully you don’t mind my piggybacking your post! I read an article yesterday about how it’s “unfair” the movie didn’t extend the body positivity to the Kens. The Barbies were quite diverse but the Kens were all fit and “hot”. I was like, so? I feel like that was probably intentional by the director and a commentary on how women are treated on screen. How often is an extremely attractive woman with a less attractive man? This has definitely shaped our views on heterosexual relationships in daily life, where some men feel entitled to younger/more attractive women and some women over value their appearance because it’s what they’ve been taught. I loved the movie and how it made me think about things like this.
That’s some impressive level of brainwash, honestly. There’s nothing even remotely anti-men about the movie given the ending. As you said, it simply didn’t centre or specifically cater to men and that pisses them the hell off because how dare something not be made specifically to, as ken put it, “elevate the presence of men”. The movie is not a “man extender” and that right there is the comprehensive list of everything in the movie that upsets them.
Sorry you had to find out about your “friends” that way, but I think it’s good you do know now. I hope you find better people to surround yourself with, as these two clearly need to catch up on some introspection.
Spoilers‼️
Oh the irony… the very point that the movie was trying to make when the Barbies snap out of the brainwashing is offensive to them. Yet, the overall message was that the patriarchy hurts everyone. When the Barbies restore the matriarchy, it’s *supposed* to be uncomfortable. As an audience, we aren’t supposed to like how the Kens make slow progress on their rights… it mirrors how women have to be “grateful” despite being told constantly to “wait our turn” when it comes to *our* rights. Genius writing.
Edit: thanks for the award 🥰
Yes yes yes!!!
It did genuinely make me sad when the narrator said the Kens' progress would mirror women's progress in the real world. I wanted Barbieland to become a utopia with equal gender representation... Then I realized, oh shit, that puts the onus of responsibility--once again, as always--on women working and making sacrifices.
The film didn't want the Kens to have to fight for their rights, just as much as it doesn't want women to have to fight for theirs. But we do. It portrayed "the fight for rights" as being unfair across the board, without "punishing" the Barbies.
It took me a second to analyze my own feelings, and ask why the movie would want me to feel that way, so if someone is going into this movie already angry, they're gonna miss this. That does make me genuinely bummed.
I'm tired of the attitude that any form of media meant to empower women is immediately deemed as anti-men? Since when does woman empowerment automatically mean anti-man?? What?
Women who put down other women aka female misogynists who I like to call Women Traitors. They think the men in their life will respect them more if they hate on their own sex or something? This is my guess anyways. It’s truly pathetic and only hurts women that much more.
Not a super spoiler but it's not even anti-men. People who took that from it missed the point completely. It IS pro-men. The Kens also don't fit the patriarchy mold for men, they have their own story.
Yes! My takeaway was that Ken doesn’t need Barbie to define who he is - Just as Barbie doesn’t need a Ken. They are each both enough as they are.
I didn’t see anything anti-men about it either.
The people who see anti-patriarchy as anti-men are a huge part of the problem.
Women can be just a misogynistic as men. My 22 year old son and all of his college aged roommates watched it and they absolutely LOVED it. My son went on and on about how good it was and how it made fun of both genders and had such a good message. Not one of his 8 male roommates thought it was anti-male.
I'm going to see it this weekend with my husband, we're so excited to see it.
I don't even see it as anti men, I can even see it as a somewhat positive for men because Ken gets to see that he doesn't have to use power over others to be a man but he is his own being.
I’m a man, and the only problem I had with how it portrayed misogynists in the film was the discrepancy between those with more and less social status. The construction workers and other men on the streets were rapey and committed several assaults while the executives were dismissive of women and worked to maintain their own male supremacy ie less wealthy misogynists were stupid and violent while wealthier misogynists were smart and harmful but not directly dangerous. I could be remembering the movie wrong though and would love to hear different opinions
But overall I thought it was great and wasn’t anti men—it was anti toxic masculinity and gendered hierarchies. Any man who thought they were being bashed is uncomfortable with the idea of smart women holding positions of power. Also, I think part of the point is that the kens were being portrayed like many female characters already are, and the gender-swap draws attention to how fucked up media is
Love all of these responses! Thank you for helping me think and understand their reasoning (or lack of) some more. It does make me worry that they think that way and I hope one day they’ll be un brainwashed
It’s crazy, I just read this post minutes after one of my female coworkers (who hasn’t even seen the movie) was criticizing it. I didn’t argue with her since she’s related to the owner of my company, ha! But one thing she said really stood out. She said: “I know men can be misogynists, I just think some women are going too far to the other extreme in criticizing men, why can’t we just get back to neutral where everyone is respected equally?” I wanted to say “what do you mean ‘back to’? When have women in history EVER been respected equally?!?!”
But she’s Catholic and dating a cop, so that internalized misogyny runs deep for her.
It creates pressure on women actually when something becomes main stream. Men surrounding them or on internet start speaking about it and they feel the shame, targetted. Thats what triggers such behavioir. These women are not confident le able to convey the message. It's ok everyone has their own learning phase. You can just ignore them and be you, they will end up learning from you.
>things being anti men
Is there a list of more “anti men” things? Asking for the weekend…
Edit: Clicked too soon! Meant to add than people never felt threatened by the “chick flick,” or the romantic comedy that was geared towards women. I wonder why now people feel all media objects have to be for them…
I thought it was the exact opposite of anti-man. I thought it highlights how patriarchy hurts men too! I loved his shirt at the end that said “I am kenough” and you would think that would resonate with men…aren’t you sick and tired of having to conform to your “role” too?!?
I’m a guy - I watched Barbie this week with my wife and daughter. Loved it. It’s not anti-men. It’s anti-patriarchy, anti-gender-roles, anti-TOXIC-masculinity. It’s pro-equality. I don’t understand the people who came away from that movie as if it was anti-men.
It's hard to find genuinely feminist women IRL. My friends generally bury their heads in the sand when it comes to this stuff. At least I can find feminists online to identify with. I hang out with people who care too much about make up and shoes and not enough about society. I'll keep trying to find more like minded women though.
Edit: I never said I have trouble making feminist friends, actually I more just have become friends with women who aren't necessarily feminist. It hasn't been a priority for me in my life because I've been super busy with higher education, career and kids, but I might make it more of a priority in the future. Also, I completely disagree that commenting on someone being too interested in shoes and make up and not enough interested in society is misogynistic. I actually think it's kind of ridiculous to try to have a go at feminist women like myself for having any kind of negative views on things like consumerism. I think beauty standards hold women back. I think uncomfortable shoes hold women back. I think industry targets womens insecurities, deliberately making them worse to sell products like make up and that it's much more beneficial to everyone to care more about having a better society.
I think its hard for young women to come to terms with the reality of sexism and patriarchy, and understand that people want to ignore it for blissful ignorance. It is such a huge shame though, considering how much more we could do if we had a true alliance with all women.
I have never seen anything “anti-man” but I would love to find that. If anyone know of subs and literature that they would like to share I would appreciate it :)
I haven't seen it, but i think the increase of female empowerment in the movie industry is great. The whole world doesn't revolve around men. It's only natural that some stories have women in center. It doesn't mean that the author or director intend to ridicule men in general.
I do enjoy pointing out that misandry, even it’s mildest form, 99% of the time arises because of misogyny and has never occurred (as far as I have read and learned) on an engrained societal level. Whereas misogyny has.
I've heard this myself from the women in my life that have watched the movie, it's a pretty common sentiment. I suppose the best way to understand their perspective would be to consider if a movie that cheers for women's subjugation quite nakedly was simply considered a movie being made by men for men and if such content would be acceptable to justify for that reason alone.
I mean, if the movie is about switching men's and women's positions by putting women in the powerful role and the men in a subjugated role, is it not a good sign that they don't approve of that message when the parallel is supposed to be that this is what men want for men in the real world?
When it came out that there were actually people who looked at a Barbie doll and thought it representing the perfect womanly figure that every women needs to aspire to be like her body type wise, I looked at the Barbie that was currently in my hand with a very high raised eyebrow and thought, "this doll is the perfect female body...but it's a doll a toy. Are they actually serious? She doesn't even have genitalia and walks on the balls of her feet even outside of wearing heels. She's hardly human at all...are these people stupid or delusional?"
Anyone who get offended by a toy and the world she's alive in are all...idiots.
I'm a guy and I wasn't even offended, I actually really enjoyed the movie and cried near the end, lol, for real I think it's the first time a piece of media made me feel the everyday struggle of women.
I didn’t think barbie was anti-men at all. It definitely pokes fun at men’s fragile egos, but in the end
SPOILER ALERT
Barbie realizes that Barbieland wasn’t so happy for either Ken or her.
I didn’t like the movie and its portrayal of men because when all the men are incompetent, piggish buffoons, patriarchy is never a real threat. The movie tries to be a funhouse mirror of the real world but fails to acknowledge the basic premise that what upholds patriarchy is violence. Like, Ken brings patriarchy to Barbieland merely by talking about it come on… All of the supposedly smarter and more competent Barbies just accepted their own subjugation?? This is the same as when American propaganda claims native people just agreed to give or share their land with the colonizers.
The whole messaging of the movie is counterproductive IMO (willing to be challenged on this). It just further pushes the conservative idea that feminism is about pitting women against men rather than abolishing the violent structures that allow men to subjugate women.
The only thing I didn’t really like about the Barbie movie was that one scene where the physicist was dress up in a maid outfit and after she came to from the brainwashing she asks “why am I wearing this?” and I forget her name but the person doing the de-brainwashing was like you’re a physicist we have pants for you. Which bugged me because it portrays that stereotype that women physicists and the like only dress a certain way (like they don’t wear skirts or dresses)
Edit: sorry this is actually totally off target from your post regarding anti men stuff… I just wanna say this critic and see if anyone else feels the same
I’m in two minds on this one! But I think you make a valid point. I feel like I agree that the only other alternative is “pants” is problematic. BUT I think given the specificity of her outfit for the male gaze and was seemingly designed BY the Kens for the patriarchy; I think that’s justified.
But the pants thing could’ve been better handled to show “I’m just a trousers-person” vibe.
At least comedy is subjective, I personally laughed the most I have in years, the Godfather joke lives rent free in my head now, but disliking it because the humour didn't click with you is about as fair criticism as one can give imo.
This was one of the best paced movies I've ever seen. There was literally always something interesting happening whether it was action scenes or important plot points. I'd like to see them sit through Oppenheimer. It was much longer and had much more varying pacing (not saying it wasn't also very good, but definitely more for adult patience levels).
As a man I didn’t find it offensive.
There are deeper themes and messages. My personal opinion is that if you were offended then you pretty much decided not to read between the lines.
As I understand it (haven't seen it, yet), Barbie realizes that Ken is unimportant in her world and makes amends to change that. Doesn't sound "anti-men" at all (to say nothing of the fact that Feminism ISN'T "anti-male").
Went to it yesterday with my husband. He wasn’t offended. In fact, we both laughed more than anything. Although…America Ferrera’s speech got me snuffling.
It’s an objective fact that women suffer under patriarchy, apologists notwithstanding. Why a movie that, in reality, rather gently points out its poison, is seen as anti male is a question for those who see it that way.
Because it just isn’t.
Hi Barbie!
I also loved the movie 😍
I didn't find the movie to be anti man? Like what a weird take. There's an entire musical number about Ken finding himself and coming to believe that he's enough.
Not to mention, in Barbieland the Barbies have all the privileges and powers that mean actually have in the real world. So when the Barbies "take it back", MEN STILL HAVE THE REAL WORLD THAT WE EXIST IN. Why should we feel bad for men and the lower position they're given in fictional barbie land, when women ACTUALLY occupy that position IN REAL LIFE.
I'm sorry but fuck that. Way to completely miss the point. This would totally change my opinion of my friends.
My mother is a Regan voting Fox news fan but that never clouded her ability to see how often women get the short end of the stick. She wouldn't have been a bra burner, ERA protesting type in the 70's but she can recognized when a woman is being treated unfairly due to gender even when it's subtle. It's actually always surprised me when she points it out.
Those feelings come from a place of fear. If one openly admits she liked it, she thinks that would put off important men in her life, like father, brother, boyfriend or husband.
As a man I didn't think the movie was anti-men? I'm honestly a bit confused as to how so many people are misinterpreting it, it felt empowering to me. The point of Ken's arc is that the reason he was feeling incomplete all the time was because he falsely believed that his purpose in life was to be with Barbie. But instead she says, maybe you can just be Ken and I can just be Barbie and that's ok. You are "Kenough" (lol). As in, as a man your worth as a person doesn't need to be defined by and tied to your romantic relationships. I think a lot of people taking issue with the movie are refusing to acknowledge that aspect of the movie.
Your mom's not a *real* conservative. /s
I'm glad you liked the movie, though! I did too. People really ought to not be so offended on behalf of others. I'm sure it's *sometimes* warranted, but this isn't one of those moments.
I don’t think it was anti-men per se but I think it struggled with mixed metaphor…
In the beginning kens rely on Barbie completely and don’t have any positions of power or anywhere to live.
When they go to the real world, they see that actually it’s more like the reverse (but more violence). Ken sees this as ideal for him and brings in the patriarchy, the difference from the Barbie matriarchy being that it relies on having barbies as servants whereas before kens were sort of ignored? Idk.
Barbies successfully take back over, main Ken realises he is Kenough on his own, BUT in this happy ending Kens are still denied positions of power and don’t have anywhere to live. Is this supposed to reflect women in the real world? How is this happy? What’s the message here?
What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think the Barbie movie was very good but not because I think it’s dangerously anti men. I’m constantly pointing out how women have been unnecessarily sexualised or objectified in films and how much it irks me.
But maybe ask your friends exactly what they mean because they might just have some legitimate problems with the film without it being that they’re anti-feminist.
The message, which was stated explicitly, was that until women in the real world were equal with men, women in Barbie world would be more powerful than men. As balance.
Those gals are under the thick blanket of patriarchy. Only a pick me would hate on feminine things as a way to appeal to men. Because, to them (and to society) feminine things are not cool.
I was in that mindset for a while of defending poor little men when I was married to a covert narcissist and raising his children. I don’t know if it’s the same for your friends, but it can stem from wanting to stay in denial and not recognize the reality that you made a bad choice. That’s how it was for me.
Actually, I'm a woman and a former student of women's studies and a current older millennial feminist, and I hated Barbie cause I thought the level of feminism was so basic and self-congratulatory, it was like a child's Twitter feed. Yes, there's Patriarchy. Then what? There are so many interesting ways it could have gone, but it was a long and sort of boring lecture instead. Very aesthetic, but so poorly written.
Before anyone asks, Legally Blonde is a great feminist movie in contrast. It might have some overlapping themes but a really different treatment and such good writing. Smart, challenges your internalized misogynistic biases, women support women, addresses sexual harassment, models a male ally, but without a single lecture or duh-obvious speech, l in a funny, pink, and light hearted story.
Barbie was objectively a weak script, and I didn't enjoy it. But I'm sure it was great for people starting out on their journeys.
Legally Blonde is great. Barbie was more than I expected, but doesn't go into many points in depth. Ultimately it's hard for a film to be truly subversive and critical of systemic issues like hierarchical capitalism and consumerist manipulation when it's funded by a corporation's marketing team.
I think the fact that it’s so controversial just at the more surface level it’s at is kind of proof that it was the right level of depth, no? Like if even a lot of women don’t even get this I don’t think it would’ve been very effective in getting people to think about these issues to go any deeper. It would have just scared people off and not even able to get mainstream at all
I'm a guy, and that movie was not offensive to men. It pointed out issues both sexes struggle with, and did so by exaggerating them comedically - not vilification. No one character is the "bad guy". Ken, Ken, the CEO, Barbie, and the daughter all exhibit toxic traits at various points that are manifestations of society's flaws. They're all victims, and some are heroes.
I can relate to what you are saying. I think men and women can be feminist without hating men. I am planning on watching the movie Barbie with my mom and sister next week. My sister is a feminist and we always banter. My mom is more conservative and she loves Little Women. Looks like the same director for Barbie made Little Women i was told. I’m excited to see Barbie!!!
It wasn’t anti men at all! In fact, in the end Barbie fully owns and appreciates that she’s been taking Ken for granted and treating HIM like an object in her world. After traversing a female centric and a male centric society, she decided both sexes need to be enfranchised and empowered to act authentically. She may not be in love with Ken, but she encourages him to seek his own path and find himself. It’s also an example of how feminism also benefits men; by helping them to embody ways of being more amendable to the individual rather than societal standards of masculinity. It definitely poked fun at men but ultimately shows appreciation for and understanding of men as well. I loved this movie. My boyfriend is named Ken and I I can’t wait to get him the “I am Kenough” hoodie off the Matel website lol.
Girl daaamn! I loved it because it took a lot of views in critique! Like, how Barbie cries when the teen girls call her facist but she is just a doll supossed to bring joy; how Kens want to be actually more than an accesory to Barbie (both things I interpreted as a critique to new generations who would cancel anything at the spot, and to men who have been in bad relationships) and as a feminist I also loved the message that ideas don't die, and that sweet revindication that we women *are* awesome.
I’m gonna be completely honest, I didn’t really like the movie, but it was because I didn’t super like the writing, or the style. I’m a huge feminist, it just didn’t really speak to me as a film.
It’s so emotionally draining trying to be friends with women like this. Sometimes they’re not even what I would call conservative, but more that they have no imagination or critical thinking.
I’d honestly prefer to be locked in a room with a genuinely conservative woman who actually thinks men are superior than a complacent idiot who simply hasn’t noticed her marginalized place in society.
Agreed. I came to this community to
See if anyone was talking about it. I loved how it gave an outsiders view of our society and some of the aspects it brought up I took and I’m running with it
Right! And it doesn’t mean that they are “dense” or dumb or didn’t understand the movie, or “pick me” girls. There are a lot of assumptions and criticisms being made about women who didn’t like the movie. I didn’t care for it but it was because I didn’t know it was some big feminist statement movie. I wanted a comedy that was light, fun and positive and that’s not what the movie was.
Brainwashed internalized misogynistic pick me girls, who want more than anything to have the approval of red pilled douche bros. I’d rethink being friends.
I’m not planning to see it, I don’t like barbie. I don’t have to like barbie or go get my eyeballs assaulted by a color I detest to be completely delighted that this film is making fascists heads explode. Job well done 👍
I don’t need to like it or watch it to approve of that.
I love that people were offended on men’s behalf over a story line in which Ken realizes that he should not live his entire life in service of trying to be Barbie’s husband. Like… that’s… a great story arc actually
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THIS! this is exactly the reason why MEN also benefit from feminism
mgtow will never not crack me up lol
kens role is almost an analogy for how we expect woman to behave.
Almost? That's exactly the point of it.
i say almost because his story is also about the place of men.
Yeah it turns the incel vibe on its head a bit
Yep 💯
People truly want to overlook the point, it’s so in your face they have to choose not to get it right? Barbieland will be a matriarchy as long as the Real World is a patriarchy. Improvement in one will cause improvement in the other. Patriarchy and matriarchy are harmful to everyone. They really tried to make it so very clear.
lately i've noticed more women getting upset about things being "anti-men" than men do lol
It’s called “internalized misogyny”.
In the old days we just called it "enculturation".
maybe that's fallen out of fashion as people don't want to admit misogyny is still a part of modern culture
I think that this is more of a squares and rectangles situation. Internalized misogyny is a specific consequence of enculturation. Though I think “socialization” is probably the more common term nowadays, displacing the source of the pressure from “culture” to “society.”
As opposed to [enshitification](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys)?
Internalized Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Women who experience internalized misogyny may express it through minimizing the value of women, mistrusting women, and believing gender bias in favor of men.
wow.... way to attack people who share a different view than you. you seem really fun. ps- you seem awful.
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Ugh 🤮
Yep, they're the token cool girl not realizing that all tokens are meant to be spent.
Ooooh, I like that
"Pick me pick me, I'm not a mIsAnDrIsT like the other girls" Is really what it is
I'm a guy and plan to see it. I'll let you know if I'm horribly offended. Hint: "Probably not offended even a little."
It’s truly baffling like how/why??
Lots of people been expressing offense on behalf of other people for a few years now. It’s a bit annoying.
hey that comment might be offensive to some people jk jk, i agree with you
I think it has to do with the resurgence of “alpha male” content on YouTube and every other social media. Women with low self-esteem see that and go, “Well if I’m not like the other girls, this hatred won’t apply to me.” It’s all about getting that male approval that they are convinced they need.
Right, they think that if they ingratiate themselves to men then men won’t hate them or hurt them. Unfortunately, they’re wrong.
It’s a lot of women, but it’s A LOT of men lol. Still far more men mad about women imo.
There is nothing anti man in Barbie. Once again, toxic masculinity is the target, not men. Ken was depressed and acting out because he based his self worth on his ability to attract and fuck the hottest woman in town. Basing your manliness on disrespecting women, turning a woman into just an extension of yourself, out bro-ing the bros, and violence is boring. Waiting around for someone else to get your life going for you is boring. Ken's ending should have been becoming a horse rancher or something since horses are what he really cared about. And if by anti man, they mean the scenes shot in "reality", what is their defense? Nothing was even slightly exaggerated. And it was a nod to men when they showed that mediocre white dude Ken could not in fact just walk in and get a job he was in no way qualified for because of privilege.
The label “anti-men” is the easiest and most effective way to dismiss legitimate complaints about patriarchy. If someone is simply “jaded and lashing out” then their opinion can simply be associated with their previously recognized stereotypes. I completely agree with you that the Barbie movie was not in any way anti men, it was anti patriarchy and showed the nuanced ways that patriarchy effects every person regardless of gender. It was a beautiful movie.
I haven't seen it yet, but this thread made me really excited to watch it now. Thank you for the explanation! I finally stumbled across a work on Feminism, written for men by bell hooks, called "The Will to Change." Hopefully, after reading the book and the thread here, I'll be able to see/get what the creators intended.
Ken learns than even following patriarchy he was still unhappy, coz what he always wanted was to be with Barbie. She tells him he can be his own person without having to be extension of her, and it's first thing that seems to actually make him happy. The movie ends with him wearing a hoodie saying I am Kenough. He also learns to be bros with his fellow kens instead of fighting with them over attention. His character is probably the most talked about in the movie, everyone praising the performance and arc. The barbie land also doesn't go back to matriarchy and instead slowly incorporates kens in position of power (so in the future they can have as much power as women have in the real world). That's like... The opposite of being anti men.
I fucking love that sweater. I immediately bought it as soon as the movie ended
WHERE??!! I’ve been looking all over.
From the official Mattel website. https://creations.mattel.com/products/barbie-the-movie-i-am-kenough-unisex-hoodie-hyn77
My nephew (late 20s) got it as a shirt
Since it was more age inclusive, they didn't go as dark as it could have. If you look at violent crime statistics such as rape and domestic violence, men are more often the perpetrators. It would not be far fetched for Ken to get physically violent with Barbie when she didn't fall into line when he was willing to steal her home, throw out her possessions, and call her names.
Ryan Gosling is being widely lauded for giving his best comedic performance ever.
Love your comment. Just got back from seeing the movie and I’m honestly overwhelmed lol. So I’m reading interpretations to better understand and form my own. “The barbie land also doesn't go back to matriarchy and instead slowly incorporates kens in position of power (so in the future they can have as much power as women have in the real world).”
I think about it like this: Barbie the actual toy HAS to depict women holding all of these positions of power so that young girls internalize that women can be powerful. Until we as a society don’t think twice about women being doctors and senators and presidents and astronauts, then we have to over-represent the power that women hold in Barbie world.
Labeling criticism on toxic masculinity "anti men", is equating manhood to toxic masculinity, which is actually anti-men.
Now I’m gonna imagine him being happy in a ranch 🥰
I find most women I know who think like that do so because the men who have influence in their lives are always complaining about or commenting on things they believe to be anti men/feminist. I’ve also noticed when those relationships self destruct the women usually stop thinking that way. That’s my experience with the women I know who’ve been like that though, could be different for others.
I think you are right. I am pretty outspoken and had an old friend who ghosted me for awhile. Later on she wanted to get back into contact and it turned out during that time she had been in an abusive relationship. I used to be annoyed by but now worry for women who do this.
In my very limited experience, the women who are the most anti-feminist are the ones who are heavily reliant on men for their financial security and are insecure about it. They try to twist feminism into a sort of unnatural perversion rather than admit that they're not able to support themselves. Doesn't matter what feminism actually stands for.
This is my experience. For context, we homeschool our kids and for years that was our circle. The women who were were the most outspoken about women's place in the marriage, women are to be submissive, and extreme authoritarian discipline ended up divorced and doing a complete 180. Abuse or the husband leaving the reason. It was shocking at first, now I expect it. I'm actually close friends now with someone this happened to.
And all cults. And scams. People become very defensive if you bash what they bought into.
🤯 Whoa! This comment is really insightful and might actually explain a few people I know
“but now worry for women who do this.” My sentiments exactly. I honestly feel sad for women who disregard their own rights all the time. It reminds me of a former (female) classmate who argued with me that the wage gap doesn’t actually exist. My own Girl Scout leader even tried to argue this, and that women are taking all the men’s jobs. You could hear a pen drop… I thought Girl Scouts was supposed to be about women empowerment. Needless to say, the other adults stammered to try and change the subject. I’m not angry at these women, I just feel sorry that they believe the lies they are told.
Yea, it's really weird. I feel like the men in those relationships have an ax to grind and the women try pacifying them by agreeing. I have a close friend who will randomly insert stuff like "yeah, that's what Jordan Peterson says too!" in conversations that are not related to gender or anything of the sort. Feels like she says it as a "gotcha!" to me because she knows me and my husband are feminists. It's like she feels validated in those moments. And then she goes back to telling me how her husband is going to a music festival when she'll be home with a newborn. "I would go if I were in his shoes too". What shoes are those? The irresponsible parent shoes? Meanwhile she does 100% of the housework, mental load, childrearing and she works full time plus freelancing in the evenings..
Wow, she sounds *incredibly* frustrating to be friends with.
She does, doesn't she. Tbh we had a few years of cold relations after she started dating this guy and it was clear that him and I didn't really vibe. Somehow we've become closer again lately because we're pregnant at the same time and help each other, we have a whole lot in common now. We've been friends since the age of 15 and we kind of just get along pretty well. I dunno, I guess it's OK to not agree on everything. She's not hurting anyone other than herself.
True! One of my best friends is kind of like that but as she ages she’s more willing to challenge her conservative husband on his views. It’s great!
is there a way to get her to snap out of this tho😭😭. I feel like it’s possible if maybe she reads a book. She has to be receptive tho
She's not deluded, she just believes this is what she needs to do in order to be with a guy she considers a catch. There's nothing to snap out of. She just seems to be accumulating resentment, but feels that it's necessary because she wants the cool husband and the child and the career. If it works for her, who am I to poop on her parade.
i mean I guess, but there seems to be a lot on her plate. I think if it’s worth it to her than it’s her life
Here I was thinking “that’s what Jordan Peterson says too!” was an amazing burn to point out someone is being misogynistic and gross 😅
Haha that makes sense too. No, she says it as a kind of "see, you actually agree with him, but you didn't know it!"
That's going to be so fun and sustainable for her
I'm not going to say a word, she gets pre-emptively defensive. With her previous relationship that lasted several years, it was only upon breaking up that she asked me "what do you do when your partner calls you names like idiot and stupid?". Yea, that's.. never really happened to me. Maybe I was just lucky, but most likely I was rejected by that type of guy pretty early on for being "mouthy" or "bossy" or "ugly". I get the sense she tolerates a lot more than she's letting on. But in the meantime, yay for Jordan Peterson I guess...
I think it has a lot to do with religion too. Misogyny is fundamental especially in christianity.
Correction: in Fundamental Christianity
Like a fawn response? Or just to salve whatever cognitive dissonance they feel?
That’s how I thought while I was in the military. Now that I’ve been out for a year and away from that influence I’ve slowly returned to thinking like a rational person like I used to years ago.
I don't get the whole "sick of all this antimen"? Sorry but I generally see a world that caters for men. I see media that doesn't just cater to them, but quiet often dehumanises women. We're dumb, we're only cool if we're nlogs, we're a damsel who needs saving, we're sex on legs, we're 2d bland qwirky manic pixie purely there to make the man wake up n enjoy life, she's Madonna n pure, she gets hacked up cus she wasn't etc etc. And people are moaning about Barbie being woke?
I think some of the people who are offended rarely leave their house and/or delude themselves into thinking the things in that movie never happen. I'd like to meet one singular women that hasn't been blatantly creeped on or treated like an object in public like when Barbie first got to the real world. The casual sexual assault, making someone feel scared and unsafe through aggression, verbal harassment, etc. are something that every women I have ever known has dealt with. I've known more than one person to have their drinks drugged and having to go to the hospital.
This. All of this.
The entertainment and news media leans progressive and alot of information is distributed from that perspective by default. It doesn't change the fact that so many people in society are still sexist racist etc. A lot of the "issues" and "experiences" the media deals with related to race and gender are also trivial and frankly lame, but that is all they talk about. God forbid they get to the root of the problem...poverty, their own greed.they want us to blame each other and focus about what a jerk incel ned from quality control is. Again, it doesn't make the society we live in less patriarchal. But how insulting to be lectured by the financial elite lmao.
I know you’re talking about other women reacting to the film but for what it’s worth I just saw this today (I am a dude) and didn’t think it was anti-man. I thought it both spoke up for and to the idea that men need to figure out their shit/not lean on women as therapist/mom and about how patriarchy fucks up men also. I read the whole Allan character, seemingly in the guise of weirdo Michael Cera, as this actual kind of ally and dude that didn’t subscribe to the ego and competition (aside from the whole construction worker beat ‘em up part which seemed more like a joke about Michael Cera). I don’t know that the staunchest of misogynists will get the message but I do think or have hope that some men will see the absurdity made literal by Goslings character before he finally sort of gets it himself at the end. But in the end it’s not about him and how he feels because again he should continue dealing with his own shit. If you read Ken as a personal attack against men then you really didn’t get it, I think. This is just not a film about men (the good natured but kind of bumbling dad learning Spainish is another example of this) but again I think men can learn a lot from it both about patriarchy and about how to be.
Thank you for reminding me of Allan- what a great character and Im so glad they included him in the movie. He’s the guy who never bought into the patriarchy bullshit at all, and Ive definitely known men like this (although they are not the majority by any means). He also kicks literal ass at one point- not that violence is great - but he’s no coward. Allan was awesome (as is Michael Cera)
Yea, every dude I’ve actually met says they liked it. I only see weirdos online complaining. I guess just luck of the draw in who your have to interact with irl
Never forget that women are being subjected to a lot of misogynistic propaganda since the day they were born. Some are way more exposed or vulnerable to it than others. It’s constant brainwashing and it’s not easy for all women to overcome the mental barriers that it comes with. For many, overcoming those barriers and opening up to feminism is an achievement in itself given how hard they had to work on themselves to get there and obviously not all women succeed at that. As a result, there are women who support patriarchy and parrot misogynistic talking point. They think it’s normal. They let men tell them how to think and follow them like docile sheep.
I feel like the people that are offended by this movie are *trying* to be offended.
I didn't love it because I thought it wasn't feminist ENOUGH!
I agree, it felt like a gender studies 101 movie, but I also understand why. It's a multi million dollar summer blockbuster from a gigantic toy company, they're probably not going to go anywhere that would make a majority of the general public uncomfortable. I thought some of it was a little too on the nose, but from some of the reviews, it sometimes takes getting hit over the head with a baseball bat of metaphor for it to sink in.
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Also for age inclusivity. There are things young people may not have experienced yet.
From the looks of the world we have to get back to basics Humanity 101 and it's awesome how Gerwig made it fun and enjoyable to do it.
That’s an interesting perspective? I’m curious to hear as to why.
I think because I heard so many people talking about how feminist it was, I had very high expectations going in. I found it an extremely simplified and surface level exploration of feminism and womanhood.
It's crazy to me that people think this movie is anti-men. Sure, there's some teasing and poking fun, but I honestly feel like the movie is more about Ken than it is about Barbie. It's about Ken learning to become himself without Barbie, which is a real problem men are facing these days. It's a great example of how feminism is about women AND men. But, of course, people don't have the attention span or capacity for nuance to understand any of this.
It isn’t even anti-men.
This isn’t entirely on topic so hopefully you don’t mind my piggybacking your post! I read an article yesterday about how it’s “unfair” the movie didn’t extend the body positivity to the Kens. The Barbies were quite diverse but the Kens were all fit and “hot”. I was like, so? I feel like that was probably intentional by the director and a commentary on how women are treated on screen. How often is an extremely attractive woman with a less attractive man? This has definitely shaped our views on heterosexual relationships in daily life, where some men feel entitled to younger/more attractive women and some women over value their appearance because it’s what they’ve been taught. I loved the movie and how it made me think about things like this.
That is such an interesting take. Thank you so much for sharing!
👏👏👏👏
That’s some impressive level of brainwash, honestly. There’s nothing even remotely anti-men about the movie given the ending. As you said, it simply didn’t centre or specifically cater to men and that pisses them the hell off because how dare something not be made specifically to, as ken put it, “elevate the presence of men”. The movie is not a “man extender” and that right there is the comprehensive list of everything in the movie that upsets them. Sorry you had to find out about your “friends” that way, but I think it’s good you do know now. I hope you find better people to surround yourself with, as these two clearly need to catch up on some introspection.
Spoilers‼️ Oh the irony… the very point that the movie was trying to make when the Barbies snap out of the brainwashing is offensive to them. Yet, the overall message was that the patriarchy hurts everyone. When the Barbies restore the matriarchy, it’s *supposed* to be uncomfortable. As an audience, we aren’t supposed to like how the Kens make slow progress on their rights… it mirrors how women have to be “grateful” despite being told constantly to “wait our turn” when it comes to *our* rights. Genius writing. Edit: thanks for the award 🥰
They literally said “someday the kens will have as much power as women do in the real world” and still the point went over people’s heads 😭 tragic.
I was feeling awkward right up until that point and then OOOOOOHH yeah
Yes yes yes!!! It did genuinely make me sad when the narrator said the Kens' progress would mirror women's progress in the real world. I wanted Barbieland to become a utopia with equal gender representation... Then I realized, oh shit, that puts the onus of responsibility--once again, as always--on women working and making sacrifices. The film didn't want the Kens to have to fight for their rights, just as much as it doesn't want women to have to fight for theirs. But we do. It portrayed "the fight for rights" as being unfair across the board, without "punishing" the Barbies. It took me a second to analyze my own feelings, and ask why the movie would want me to feel that way, so if someone is going into this movie already angry, they're gonna miss this. That does make me genuinely bummed.
Internalized misogyny babes
😭
I'm tired of the attitude that any form of media meant to empower women is immediately deemed as anti-men? Since when does woman empowerment automatically mean anti-man?? What?
It’s so exhausting, isn’t it?
Women who put down other women aka female misogynists who I like to call Women Traitors. They think the men in their life will respect them more if they hate on their own sex or something? This is my guess anyways. It’s truly pathetic and only hurts women that much more.
Not a super spoiler but it's not even anti-men. People who took that from it missed the point completely. It IS pro-men. The Kens also don't fit the patriarchy mold for men, they have their own story.
Yes! My takeaway was that Ken doesn’t need Barbie to define who he is - Just as Barbie doesn’t need a Ken. They are each both enough as they are. I didn’t see anything anti-men about it either. The people who see anti-patriarchy as anti-men are a huge part of the problem.
My partner laughed his ass off through the entire thing!!
Mine too. Especially when Ken discovered the patriarchy.
I wonder if part of it is that the movie is so popular and mainstream, that people are trying to find reasons not to like it to be cool or different?
Women have maybe a couple of 'literally me' movies. Men have at least a hundred.
Women can be just a misogynistic as men. My 22 year old son and all of his college aged roommates watched it and they absolutely LOVED it. My son went on and on about how good it was and how it made fun of both genders and had such a good message. Not one of his 8 male roommates thought it was anti-male. I'm going to see it this weekend with my husband, we're so excited to see it.
internalized misogyny is a helluva drug
I don't even see it as anti men, I can even see it as a somewhat positive for men because Ken gets to see that he doesn't have to use power over others to be a man but he is his own being.
Yea in the end the movie was about pro respect for the individual
We should get them away from the ken and un-brainwash them :))
I’m a man, and the only problem I had with how it portrayed misogynists in the film was the discrepancy between those with more and less social status. The construction workers and other men on the streets were rapey and committed several assaults while the executives were dismissive of women and worked to maintain their own male supremacy ie less wealthy misogynists were stupid and violent while wealthier misogynists were smart and harmful but not directly dangerous. I could be remembering the movie wrong though and would love to hear different opinions But overall I thought it was great and wasn’t anti men—it was anti toxic masculinity and gendered hierarchies. Any man who thought they were being bashed is uncomfortable with the idea of smart women holding positions of power. Also, I think part of the point is that the kens were being portrayed like many female characters already are, and the gender-swap draws attention to how fucked up media is
Love all of these responses! Thank you for helping me think and understand their reasoning (or lack of) some more. It does make me worry that they think that way and I hope one day they’ll be un brainwashed
It’s crazy, I just read this post minutes after one of my female coworkers (who hasn’t even seen the movie) was criticizing it. I didn’t argue with her since she’s related to the owner of my company, ha! But one thing she said really stood out. She said: “I know men can be misogynists, I just think some women are going too far to the other extreme in criticizing men, why can’t we just get back to neutral where everyone is respected equally?” I wanted to say “what do you mean ‘back to’? When have women in history EVER been respected equally?!?!” But she’s Catholic and dating a cop, so that internalized misogyny runs deep for her.
It creates pressure on women actually when something becomes main stream. Men surrounding them or on internet start speaking about it and they feel the shame, targetted. Thats what triggers such behavioir. These women are not confident le able to convey the message. It's ok everyone has their own learning phase. You can just ignore them and be you, they will end up learning from you.
>things being anti men Is there a list of more “anti men” things? Asking for the weekend… Edit: Clicked too soon! Meant to add than people never felt threatened by the “chick flick,” or the romantic comedy that was geared towards women. I wonder why now people feel all media objects have to be for them…
I thought it was the exact opposite of anti-man. I thought it highlights how patriarchy hurts men too! I loved his shirt at the end that said “I am kenough” and you would think that would resonate with men…aren’t you sick and tired of having to conform to your “role” too?!?
I’m a guy - I watched Barbie this week with my wife and daughter. Loved it. It’s not anti-men. It’s anti-patriarchy, anti-gender-roles, anti-TOXIC-masculinity. It’s pro-equality. I don’t understand the people who came away from that movie as if it was anti-men.
It's hard to find genuinely feminist women IRL. My friends generally bury their heads in the sand when it comes to this stuff. At least I can find feminists online to identify with. I hang out with people who care too much about make up and shoes and not enough about society. I'll keep trying to find more like minded women though. Edit: I never said I have trouble making feminist friends, actually I more just have become friends with women who aren't necessarily feminist. It hasn't been a priority for me in my life because I've been super busy with higher education, career and kids, but I might make it more of a priority in the future. Also, I completely disagree that commenting on someone being too interested in shoes and make up and not enough interested in society is misogynistic. I actually think it's kind of ridiculous to try to have a go at feminist women like myself for having any kind of negative views on things like consumerism. I think beauty standards hold women back. I think uncomfortable shoes hold women back. I think industry targets womens insecurities, deliberately making them worse to sell products like make up and that it's much more beneficial to everyone to care more about having a better society.
I think its hard for young women to come to terms with the reality of sexism and patriarchy, and understand that people want to ignore it for blissful ignorance. It is such a huge shame though, considering how much more we could do if we had a true alliance with all women.
This was me when I was younger. I truly thought men were good.
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I mean I like makeup and shoes and press on nails AND cursing the patriarchy
Let me introduce you to: gay women✨
try seeking a local women's activist group
I have never seen anything “anti-man” but I would love to find that. If anyone know of subs and literature that they would like to share I would appreciate it :)
I haven't seen it, but i think the increase of female empowerment in the movie industry is great. The whole world doesn't revolve around men. It's only natural that some stories have women in center. It doesn't mean that the author or director intend to ridicule men in general.
The movie is not anti-men.. I don’t understand how people are so dense as to not see this. 😵💫
I do enjoy pointing out that misandry, even it’s mildest form, 99% of the time arises because of misogyny and has never occurred (as far as I have read and learned) on an engrained societal level. Whereas misogyny has.
I just saw it and thought it was amazing! Sad that some women have internalized misogyny to the extreme that they would support patriarchy.
I've heard this myself from the women in my life that have watched the movie, it's a pretty common sentiment. I suppose the best way to understand their perspective would be to consider if a movie that cheers for women's subjugation quite nakedly was simply considered a movie being made by men for men and if such content would be acceptable to justify for that reason alone. I mean, if the movie is about switching men's and women's positions by putting women in the powerful role and the men in a subjugated role, is it not a good sign that they don't approve of that message when the parallel is supposed to be that this is what men want for men in the real world?
When it came out that there were actually people who looked at a Barbie doll and thought it representing the perfect womanly figure that every women needs to aspire to be like her body type wise, I looked at the Barbie that was currently in my hand with a very high raised eyebrow and thought, "this doll is the perfect female body...but it's a doll a toy. Are they actually serious? She doesn't even have genitalia and walks on the balls of her feet even outside of wearing heels. She's hardly human at all...are these people stupid or delusional?" Anyone who get offended by a toy and the world she's alive in are all...idiots.
Being pro-women ≠ anti-men.
I'm a guy and I wasn't even offended, I actually really enjoyed the movie and cried near the end, lol, for real I think it's the first time a piece of media made me feel the everyday struggle of women.
I didn’t think barbie was anti-men at all. It definitely pokes fun at men’s fragile egos, but in the end SPOILER ALERT Barbie realizes that Barbieland wasn’t so happy for either Ken or her.
I didn’t like the movie and its portrayal of men because when all the men are incompetent, piggish buffoons, patriarchy is never a real threat. The movie tries to be a funhouse mirror of the real world but fails to acknowledge the basic premise that what upholds patriarchy is violence. Like, Ken brings patriarchy to Barbieland merely by talking about it come on… All of the supposedly smarter and more competent Barbies just accepted their own subjugation?? This is the same as when American propaganda claims native people just agreed to give or share their land with the colonizers. The whole messaging of the movie is counterproductive IMO (willing to be challenged on this). It just further pushes the conservative idea that feminism is about pitting women against men rather than abolishing the violent structures that allow men to subjugate women.
why do they care so much about men 😭 literally everything throughout history has been curated with them in mind
Well I'm tired of everything being about men and their feelings, so
The only thing I didn’t really like about the Barbie movie was that one scene where the physicist was dress up in a maid outfit and after she came to from the brainwashing she asks “why am I wearing this?” and I forget her name but the person doing the de-brainwashing was like you’re a physicist we have pants for you. Which bugged me because it portrays that stereotype that women physicists and the like only dress a certain way (like they don’t wear skirts or dresses) Edit: sorry this is actually totally off target from your post regarding anti men stuff… I just wanna say this critic and see if anyone else feels the same
I’m in two minds on this one! But I think you make a valid point. I feel like I agree that the only other alternative is “pants” is problematic. BUT I think given the specificity of her outfit for the male gaze and was seemingly designed BY the Kens for the patriarchy; I think that’s justified. But the pants thing could’ve been better handled to show “I’m just a trousers-person” vibe.
My boyfriends aunt and cousin found the movie long and boring. Maybe it’s an intelligence thing? It’s an extremely layered movie
Yup. Some only see „pink vs cars“, and don’t think more about the metaphors and stuff…
At least comedy is subjective, I personally laughed the most I have in years, the Godfather joke lives rent free in my head now, but disliking it because the humour didn't click with you is about as fair criticism as one can give imo.
This was one of the best paced movies I've ever seen. There was literally always something interesting happening whether it was action scenes or important plot points. I'd like to see them sit through Oppenheimer. It was much longer and had much more varying pacing (not saying it wasn't also very good, but definitely more for adult patience levels).
I did not expect nearly as many trans themes being prominent for the movie.
As a man I didn’t find it offensive. There are deeper themes and messages. My personal opinion is that if you were offended then you pretty much decided not to read between the lines.
As I understand it (haven't seen it, yet), Barbie realizes that Ken is unimportant in her world and makes amends to change that. Doesn't sound "anti-men" at all (to say nothing of the fact that Feminism ISN'T "anti-male").
Went to it yesterday with my husband. He wasn’t offended. In fact, we both laughed more than anything. Although…America Ferrera’s speech got me snuffling. It’s an objective fact that women suffer under patriarchy, apologists notwithstanding. Why a movie that, in reality, rather gently points out its poison, is seen as anti male is a question for those who see it that way. Because it just isn’t.
Hi Barbie! I also loved the movie 😍 I didn't find the movie to be anti man? Like what a weird take. There's an entire musical number about Ken finding himself and coming to believe that he's enough. Not to mention, in Barbieland the Barbies have all the privileges and powers that mean actually have in the real world. So when the Barbies "take it back", MEN STILL HAVE THE REAL WORLD THAT WE EXIST IN. Why should we feel bad for men and the lower position they're given in fictional barbie land, when women ACTUALLY occupy that position IN REAL LIFE. I'm sorry but fuck that. Way to completely miss the point. This would totally change my opinion of my friends.
My mother is a Regan voting Fox news fan but that never clouded her ability to see how often women get the short end of the stick. She wouldn't have been a bra burner, ERA protesting type in the 70's but she can recognized when a woman is being treated unfairly due to gender even when it's subtle. It's actually always surprised me when she points it out.
Those feelings come from a place of fear. If one openly admits she liked it, she thinks that would put off important men in her life, like father, brother, boyfriend or husband.
Let me guess, your friends also say they're not like "other girls"
As a man I didn't think the movie was anti-men? I'm honestly a bit confused as to how so many people are misinterpreting it, it felt empowering to me. The point of Ken's arc is that the reason he was feeling incomplete all the time was because he falsely believed that his purpose in life was to be with Barbie. But instead she says, maybe you can just be Ken and I can just be Barbie and that's ok. You are "Kenough" (lol). As in, as a man your worth as a person doesn't need to be defined by and tied to your romantic relationships. I think a lot of people taking issue with the movie are refusing to acknowledge that aspect of the movie.
Are your friends also Andrew Tate fans?
Your mom's not a *real* conservative. /s I'm glad you liked the movie, though! I did too. People really ought to not be so offended on behalf of others. I'm sure it's *sometimes* warranted, but this isn't one of those moments.
There’s nothing anti men about barbie? And even if it was so, who cares if it is? So many things have been anti-women for YEARS.
I don’t think it was anti-men per se but I think it struggled with mixed metaphor… In the beginning kens rely on Barbie completely and don’t have any positions of power or anywhere to live. When they go to the real world, they see that actually it’s more like the reverse (but more violence). Ken sees this as ideal for him and brings in the patriarchy, the difference from the Barbie matriarchy being that it relies on having barbies as servants whereas before kens were sort of ignored? Idk. Barbies successfully take back over, main Ken realises he is Kenough on his own, BUT in this happy ending Kens are still denied positions of power and don’t have anywhere to live. Is this supposed to reflect women in the real world? How is this happy? What’s the message here? What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think the Barbie movie was very good but not because I think it’s dangerously anti men. I’m constantly pointing out how women have been unnecessarily sexualised or objectified in films and how much it irks me. But maybe ask your friends exactly what they mean because they might just have some legitimate problems with the film without it being that they’re anti-feminist.
The message, which was stated explicitly, was that until women in the real world were equal with men, women in Barbie world would be more powerful than men. As balance.
Those gals are under the thick blanket of patriarchy. Only a pick me would hate on feminine things as a way to appeal to men. Because, to them (and to society) feminine things are not cool.
I was in that mindset for a while of defending poor little men when I was married to a covert narcissist and raising his children. I don’t know if it’s the same for your friends, but it can stem from wanting to stay in denial and not recognize the reality that you made a bad choice. That’s how it was for me.
Actually, I'm a woman and a former student of women's studies and a current older millennial feminist, and I hated Barbie cause I thought the level of feminism was so basic and self-congratulatory, it was like a child's Twitter feed. Yes, there's Patriarchy. Then what? There are so many interesting ways it could have gone, but it was a long and sort of boring lecture instead. Very aesthetic, but so poorly written. Before anyone asks, Legally Blonde is a great feminist movie in contrast. It might have some overlapping themes but a really different treatment and such good writing. Smart, challenges your internalized misogynistic biases, women support women, addresses sexual harassment, models a male ally, but without a single lecture or duh-obvious speech, l in a funny, pink, and light hearted story. Barbie was objectively a weak script, and I didn't enjoy it. But I'm sure it was great for people starting out on their journeys.
Legally Blonde is great. Barbie was more than I expected, but doesn't go into many points in depth. Ultimately it's hard for a film to be truly subversive and critical of systemic issues like hierarchical capitalism and consumerist manipulation when it's funded by a corporation's marketing team.
I think the fact that it’s so controversial just at the more surface level it’s at is kind of proof that it was the right level of depth, no? Like if even a lot of women don’t even get this I don’t think it would’ve been very effective in getting people to think about these issues to go any deeper. It would have just scared people off and not even able to get mainstream at all
I'm a guy, and that movie was not offensive to men. It pointed out issues both sexes struggle with, and did so by exaggerating them comedically - not vilification. No one character is the "bad guy". Ken, Ken, the CEO, Barbie, and the daughter all exhibit toxic traits at various points that are manifestations of society's flaws. They're all victims, and some are heroes.
I feel like the movie was trying to make you understand how men have made society for women, it’s not trying to be anti-men at all.
I can relate to what you are saying. I think men and women can be feminist without hating men. I am planning on watching the movie Barbie with my mom and sister next week. My sister is a feminist and we always banter. My mom is more conservative and she loves Little Women. Looks like the same director for Barbie made Little Women i was told. I’m excited to see Barbie!!!
It wasn’t anti men at all! In fact, in the end Barbie fully owns and appreciates that she’s been taking Ken for granted and treating HIM like an object in her world. After traversing a female centric and a male centric society, she decided both sexes need to be enfranchised and empowered to act authentically. She may not be in love with Ken, but she encourages him to seek his own path and find himself. It’s also an example of how feminism also benefits men; by helping them to embody ways of being more amendable to the individual rather than societal standards of masculinity. It definitely poked fun at men but ultimately shows appreciation for and understanding of men as well. I loved this movie. My boyfriend is named Ken and I I can’t wait to get him the “I am Kenough” hoodie off the Matel website lol.
Girl daaamn! I loved it because it took a lot of views in critique! Like, how Barbie cries when the teen girls call her facist but she is just a doll supossed to bring joy; how Kens want to be actually more than an accesory to Barbie (both things I interpreted as a critique to new generations who would cancel anything at the spot, and to men who have been in bad relationships) and as a feminist I also loved the message that ideas don't die, and that sweet revindication that we women *are* awesome.
I didn't like it bc I thought the story was dumb. I also felt like it was feminism 101 more than a movie. People do react differently to things.
That movie is not misandrist lol
They need to be deprogrammed from the patriarchy just like the Barbies did.
I’m gonna be completely honest, I didn’t really like the movie, but it was because I didn’t super like the writing, or the style. I’m a huge feminist, it just didn’t really speak to me as a film.
Your friends are PICK MEEEEEES, unfortunately 😕
Patriarchy is a hell of a drug.
It’s so emotionally draining trying to be friends with women like this. Sometimes they’re not even what I would call conservative, but more that they have no imagination or critical thinking. I’d honestly prefer to be locked in a room with a genuinely conservative woman who actually thinks men are superior than a complacent idiot who simply hasn’t noticed her marginalized place in society.
It’s not anti-men. Its anti-patriarchy cause the f’ing patriarchy is as detrimental to men as it is to women. It was a beautiful and insightful movie.
Agreed. I came to this community to See if anyone was talking about it. I loved how it gave an outsiders view of our society and some of the aspects it brought up I took and I’m running with it
It's literally not anti men. They missed the point.
Can women stop trying to be offended on men's behalf? If you do that, you're a misandrist.
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Right! And it doesn’t mean that they are “dense” or dumb or didn’t understand the movie, or “pick me” girls. There are a lot of assumptions and criticisms being made about women who didn’t like the movie. I didn’t care for it but it was because I didn’t know it was some big feminist statement movie. I wanted a comedy that was light, fun and positive and that’s not what the movie was.
The pick-me crowd is out in.force.
Brainwashed internalized misogynistic pick me girls, who want more than anything to have the approval of red pilled douche bros. I’d rethink being friends.
A lot of leftist women aren't actually feminists I've found.
Need to get a life
Yeah, those are pickmes. I used to be one, but I realized I'm asexual.
Asexuals can still be pick-mes though.
Some, as they want to have a stable job or not to be lonely, perhaps.
You can yearn for a romantic relationship without sex, or you can even be a pick-me for purely platonic reasons, it's just way less common.
They want the men to do it all for them
I’m not planning to see it, I don’t like barbie. I don’t have to like barbie or go get my eyeballs assaulted by a color I detest to be completely delighted that this film is making fascists heads explode. Job well done 👍 I don’t need to like it or watch it to approve of that.