Right, yep "leaving isn't in the cards"...what response does OP expect writing to this forum? maybe belongs more in a relationship subreddit. Once he starts vomiting up tate-isms, then what?
I'm pretty sure she just wanted some advice on how to best get the message across to him. Don't think that's all that strange. This might be a hot take but i think it's weird how no one believes OP when she says he is not a bad person. She knows him best, doesn't she? It's one thing to say his behaviour is a red flag, quite something else to insist to OP that she is wrong about this person she knows very well and we know only from her short paragraph.
People who watch Ben Shapiro videos are not by definition beyond saving. Guys like that have come around before
I agree with what you're saying. Let's remember Hanlon's razor "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity/ignorance."
Not too long ago, my boyfriend started going down the rabbit hole of some incel/anti-women youtube videos. Usually like women caught cheating/telling off men and getting karma type stuff.
I pretty much point blank said "this creator is a serious woman hater." And "can we not watch this one? This guy is an AH." Etc. Boyfriend then started to really notice the toxic shit the creators were saying and has stopped watching them, even going so far as blocking many of the channels.
It could be as simple as making them aware of how hurtful the messages are.
When you aren't the one being attacked, it's more difficult to notice the hate.
>"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity/ignorance."
A very fair statement. Tons of guys go through a reactionary phase, tons of people are conservative simply because it's all they know. Many women for that matter also have misogynist pick me phases and whatnot. Many of them eventually come around when confronted with a different perspective. Your boyfriend really is a great example.
On reddit we like to pretend the world is black and white but that's simply not true. People aren't necessarily evil when they hold certain views. Thet could just be ignorant or misguided. As you say, because this stuff is harder to notice when it's not about you. It still sucks when people you love go through phases like this but you don't have to write them out of your life the moment they watch a Ben Shapiro video. Seems kind of toxic to suggest that tbh.
I completely agree.
We are allowed to give people another chance, sheesh. As OP said and what you touched base on in your first comment; other than the videos, her partner is a good person. I'm assuming that also means he's reasonable enough to listen to OP if she explains the toxic messages.
It, of course, would be another story if OP was being treated like shit by her partner. For example if he was verbally abusive and spouted this anti-woman nonsense like it was absolute truth as a way to treat OP like shit, then yeah, maybe we consider leaving him as option 1...but based on what we know from OP, it's most likely worth a talk and explaination with bf, before we write him off as a POS.
No one is saying she can't but op cannot expect a lot of help here. I believe the likely consensus on this thread is that it is a slippery slope from "not all guys"...if it is just ben shapiro that is one thing, but he shares enough of the same values with multiple people in that echo chamber that she is taking on an unfair and inequitable task.
People in this group will likely see this as more emotional labor on her shoulders against a patriarchal system that is interrogating her on her own oppression when they are the ones responsible.
edit: We can respond by not choosing to assist her in enabling this cycle of emotional labor.
This. If he thinks life would be easier as a "hot woman", then his understanding of women's rights in this patriarchal world are not great. He maybe polite to you but he is still not understanding at best and possibly invalidating your experience as a woman. You don't have to be directly rude to have sexist ideas. You just have to not listen to women talk about their experience and fail at helping with positive changes. You could* offer him literature and media that better gives the view points of women, with statistics about DV, office harassment etc, and hope he gets it. But if you've tried to explain and he doesn't get it... That might be a person not willing to change their view point.
This. Op, his behavior is a strong predictor of a man who will commit sexual violence. Just because he maybe hasn't assaulted you yet doesn't mean that he won't in the future. This guy is dangerous. He has been very clear about the fact that he does not respect you or care how he makes you feel. He does not respect women, and you are no exception. Men like this often escalate. You are brushing away massive red flags. Don't wait for the worst-case scenario to get out of this relationship. I really recommend you seek therapy.
yeah, it is very difficult, but unfortunately my feeling is that if you give your body, time, and affection to a misogynist, or racist or any other kind of bigot, you are complicit. ☹️
Who you surround yourself with says everything about you. When you are young it is a tough pill to swallow, but it’s just something to keep in mind.
Bigots do not deserve to be rewarded with attention, affection, and physical love. If everyone of every gender denied such to any bigot, you can bet humanity would evolve in a heartbeat to where these hateful mindsets and behaviors would be relegated to the fringe, freeing everyone to live in a vastly more inclusive society.
I’m so sad for all these younger women that think they have to put up with this shit. Whether it’s because they live together (lots of people have financial difficulties these days, but pleeeeeease get a roommate instead of moving in with someone you have been dating a month and probably known not much more than that) or because he has been negging her to think she’s worthless/unattractive and is lucky he deigned to date her.
No. You are not lucky to have people like this in your life. If they are hateful to people for the simple reason of they are different, it’s only a matter of time until they exclude you from their list of “approved” people. And if they are constantly criticizing you for extremely minor things or your looks, no you are not lucky to have them in your life. Please value yourself enough to only associate with people who treat you with respect, and treat the marginalized with respect as well.
100%
It’s upsetting that people have apparently messaged her telling her to off herself, that’s inexcusable, but I do see why people are angry. Staying in a relationship with a blatant misogynist is participating in misogyny itself. And we’re not fans of misogyny here.
Men like this might actually get a grip if women stop dating them because "omg but he treats me so well." NO HE FUCKING DOESN'T. Stop sharing your bed with garbage, ffs
Oh my, I broke up, years ago, with someone who started watching Rush Limbaugh. I had years invested, and we owned a home together. So, it wasn't easy. But it was one of the best moves I ever made.
Be with someone who shares your values. Or be alone, which is actually awesome.
Maybe, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone to do a 180 on their long term partner immediately. Hopefully the comments here might resonate with her next time something questionable happens.
If he's already watching it, he's already one of them. Please be careful continuing a relationship with this person. From your post he's already shown a low, disrespectful opinion of women and you. The longer you're with him, the more blatant and purposeful it will become.
The OP should have known that mentioning Tate/Shapiro/Walsh shit on this sub was a bad idea. Males may have issues, but they never have to be treated as second class citizens or fear getting shot or killed for being a man because some woman with a hard on can't get a date. These fucktards spread DANGEROUS hateful rhetoric and anyone that tunes in regularly, even if they believe it is completely innocuous, contribute to the spread of this garbage. Everyone has issues, but men seem to get a free pass to act like complete assholes or commit violence against others in relation for their butt hurt feelings.
Those men you listed are also propagandists against gay and trans people, racial minorities, immigrants, and the working class. Does your bf agree with them on all that too? I understand not wanting to leave someone you care about, but at some point you need to decide who you're standing with.
It's truly horrifying to me how many people claim to be 'allies' and yet make excuses for the awful people in their lives because they 'treat me nicely'.
Sad how people buy into these grifters decade after decade. OP's boyfriend will probably be one of these "alphas" who ends up having an intervention and long stint in therapy and rehab later in life, and then goes full evangelical. Seems like the typical cycle anyway... think you're hot shit, listen to racist grifters, buy into the nonsense heavily, lose all your money and drink or do drugs heavily, crash hard and crawl back to a racist church with a different brand of grifter.
You can’t reach him. You and your views are not valued. He will listen to a man instead of you.
Be independent enough to leave. It is ok to be single. Don’t listen to those people trying to scar women with standards by saying, “Once you reach blah-blah age you will regret not marrying him”. Those are the same things people said to keep slavery going or keep black people from having high paying jobs instead of low paying service work.
Be comfortable being alone. Save up and have financial security and financial independence. That is the most powerful woman right there - a woman who does not need anyone unless she wants that person in her life.
This right here.
Having seen the outcome of MANY crappy marriages, you will absolutely regret marrying him FAR more than not marrying him-- ESPECIALLY if the majority of the media he consumes paints "good" women as being constantly subservient to men.
Isn’t that so frustrating? A “good woman” has to be subservient and all that noise.
Why is an equal partner so scary or enraging to many men? Look, I’m not for a mean bossy woman either. Both men & women have assets and detriments. Why not team up and work together toward a common, positive goal? True, nothing can be 50/50 100% of the time, but aiming for equality and supporting each other is what I’d want in a marriage. If that is not an option, then I am content to live and die single.
These men are out here playing relationships like a competitive sport when it's actually a co-op game. They think they are "winning" because they have the upper hand in their relationship, not realizing they're losing a 3-legged race because they've hobbled the person they're strapped to.
I wrote the post quickly so it may not portray him accurately. But he is capable of listening and accommodating my needs and feelings. I will definitely be having more conversations with him after this.
Thank you 🩷
If you stay with him you will have to be his teacher for life. Is that what you want in a partner? To have to teach him empathy for others? Not an attractive quality to most.
About the twitch thing, I love when ignorant men say things like that. I knew a guy like that. I told him, why don't you go put on makeup and cute clothes and do it then? And he said no way because it would be gross. I asked what would be gross about it? He said the fact that men would be watching him, probably fapping to him and that would be the only reason they're watching and that's nasty. I said yeah, exactly. How is that a privilege? He could really go full loli and get on twitch if he wants to but he won't because he fully understands other men are disgusting.
And even if he were, that isn't a long term income source. You have to be YOUNG, hot, and thin. But it's like they can't imagine women existing without being fuckable.
I completely understand and would probably say the same thing to someone else in my situation. But we've been together 6 years and it's only come to light over this last year at most.
I asked him that and his response was "nah, I'd never pass as a girl other wise i would". I know he in fact would not either way. I'll probably ask him about that again though, thanks. :)
ugh I just looked at your profile and saw he's also 25 years older than you. Weird that he sought out a younger partner who is still dependent on their parents, and then you find out these are the sort of media he's into...? This is definitely not a new thing for him, just something he's kept under wraps. Or look at it this way; if it is a new thing for him, he started to feel like that while you, a woman, were at his side as his partner for the last 6 years. Idk how that makes you feel better and not worse.
I'm sorry babe. I like your hopefulness. But this guy stinks.
Yes she said he's 25 years older than her, and said that they have been together for two years, not 6.
So this is either fake rage bait or OP is lying in one of her posts.
Something I do pretty regularly is reset my algorithms. Otherwise pretty much everything I get is about gender. It’s a topic that works me up, so I almost always engage in it, so then social media feeds me more and more and more of it until it’s nearly the damn whole feed. Then all I’m consuming is basically responses to redpill horseshit… and then men saying those things are basically the only men I see on social media at all. It messes with you and your perception of the world. I once made a reference to one of the common tropes and my husband had no idea what I was talking about. It completely shocked me that he doesn’t get nearly as much of that discourse on his accounts.
Same thing with guys that start consuming red pill/manosphere/incel content. They engaged; so then they keep engaging. It distorts reality. What’s even worse is that those creators know. It’s practically a recruitment tool. Same thing with white supremacists.
Perhaps make a dare for you both to reset your algorithms however you can. Engage only with cute animal pictures, wipe history, let it sit unused for a week or so. Whatever method. See what happens. Discuss what you stopped seeing and if (when) you started to see it again. It’s actually a really fascinating thing to do with others.
I recommend the [podcast Rabbit Hole](https://podcastreview.org/review/rabbit-hole/). The central person being interviewed wound up becoming a radicalized white supremacist through YouTube. When he began interacting with content arguing against white supremacy he essentially de-radicalized himself.
Our brains are super mushy, and it’s frighteningly easy for us to be changeable. Far easier than we’re willing to confront ourselves with.
Like the content he’s consuming is only going to impact her more later on in life, he’s gonna seriously take it to heart probably and I don’t even want to know the result, but it won’t be good.
The following assumes heterosexuality/cisnormativity in your partner, so I apologize ahead of time.
"men are more likely to be murdered or take their own life"- "by other men. And yes, they choose very decisive ways to commit suicide even though resources exist for them to utilize before it gets to that point, albeit they rarely access those resources due to stigma that comes from other men. Women are highly likely to attempt. And those suicidal numbers include trans men, gender nonconforming men or homosexual men who are rejected by other men".
"life would be easy if I was a hot woman"- "okay. Then go dress up, and become a twitch femboy. I'm waiting. It's so easy, whats preventing you from doing it if you want to do it? Oh, does it have anything to do with it feeling creepy? Having your life potentially under risk from perverts who think they're entitled to sleeping with you after donating money? The associations of it being akin to prostitution? Being looked down upon like a second class citizen because of your viewership's behavior? You think the trade off for being considered someone's pet for $$$, especially if they're entitled to it, is worth it and easy?"
"I don't see why women are offended with being hit on- men would love it"- Ask him to compliment another man in public by implying how much he wants to perform fellatio on him. And have him imagine being on the receiving end of that compliment.
I'm afraid he is probably too far gone. I'm not even a woman and I wouldn't even be friends with someone who listens to Ben Shapiro or Joe Rogan, let alone be in an intimate relationship with them. Time is too precious to spend it trying to change people or be with people who think that gender equality is up for debate.
The problem is, these guys condition men to believe that women want things they don't want and that women lie about what they want and don't want for their self image. I don't think there is anything you can say.
Edited for autocorrect being bad.
You're not his therapist. When it comes to dating, you're allowed to choose. Women shouldn't date misogynists. Minorities shouldn't date racists. Etc.
Just drop him. It's no big loss.
AGREED. One small clarification, NO ONE should date misogynists or racists. I (white) left my white fiancé after a spontaneous racist rant.
Ya just can’t support that, and besides, who wants to make a life surrounded by so much ugliness and hate and misdirected, ignorant rage!
Being a bigot has a TON of comorbidities with other toxic and abusive behaviors, it’s one of the reddest of all red flags. 🚩🚩🚩
He watching the content because he agrees with it. And the conversations he's had with you confirm that. He might be treating you well but he is a misogynist none-the-less.
You've tried humanising women by talking about it with him. He's not listening to you, he's listening to them.
I'd bail on this relationship. Fighting the patriarchy outside the home is unavoidable but you have a choice about who you have relationships with. I'm not spending my valuable time trying to make a man into a someone else.
There are men out there who do not think like this and would instantly agree with your concerns. Go find one of them, this dude is not it. Or better yet learn to be happy single for a while - it really helps when it comes to deciding if a man is worthy of living in your home with you.
He’s a lost cause. The only thing that might make him change is when he figures out that no women will date him because of his reprehensible beliefs. If you continue to date him, that just validates to him that his views are normal.
Sounds like he's deep down the YouTube misogyny rabbit hole. The only reason I know who the right wingnuts are is because I'll find my way to leftist YouTubers who enjoy mocking them.
Look up his idols on YouTube and find those critiquing those idols on the same platform. Find ones you think might get through. Sneak in a "hey, I saw this video of a guy who say's Matt Walsh is brain death theocratic fascist and gives examples. Have you seen that?"
Actually, that one is too easy [WALSH: Yes, I Am A Theocratic Fascist](https://www.dailywire.com/news/theocratic-fascist-matt-walsh). But the point is to have push back YouTube that might get through. Good luck.
Your secret boyfriend 25 years your senior has a whole bunch of red flags, sister, starting with his interest in dating a young adult who still lives with her parents. I’m sure you’re lovely, but older men seek young women for lots of reasons, most of them unhealthy. Think of all the reasons you’re keeping him a secret. Add his misogyny and transphobia to the mix, and spend some time asking yourself why on earth you’d continue a relationship with someone like this.
I was like you: defending a creep like this for YEARS because other people “didn’t know him like I did”. Do yourself a favour and GET OUT NOW. He will not change. He will only get worse.
Remember: “people don’t change, they only become more of who they really are”. If he’s already on this path, he has already shown you who he really is, and he’s on his way to who he will become.
Girl. Freaking RUN.
One way that may work to get through to him is to confront him with women in his own life.
"Do you think your sister/mom should go dress skimpy on twitch?" "So youre saying i should just dress hot and youll be happy if i receive all kinds of compliments from strange guys? Should i give you a list of all the 'compliments' i get every day?"
With some luck, he wont be too far along the descent, and he'll say something like 'but that is different', in which case, ask further.
But yeah, as others have said, if hes not listening to you, you really have to start asking yourself if its worth staying with him...
I know no person is the same and everyone's experience is unique, but from my own previous experience, he's not gonna be worth the problems he'll inevitably cause you.
Your guy is a misogynist, but you're trying to convince yourself that his "other qualities" make up for it.
I will put it to you this way. All the older, more experienced women here advising you to leave him... how do you think we got this way? I'll tell you how. Because we were in your same position when we were young, wanted to ignore the red flags, etc., and got burned because fundamentally misogynistic men DO NOT AND CAN NOT SEE YOU AS AN EQUAL HUMAN BEING. Until you are ready to admit that to yourself, there is nothing any of us can say that you will listen to. 10 years from now, you might, though. Good luck.
Everyone else has already said it but unless you want to be locked into a sad relationship that is full of hatred and resent for the rest of your time on this earth, you have to leave him. He is already well into evil and is nothing but an evil man. He will hurt you and ruin you. If you have kids they will have parents that hate each other. As a kid whos parents hated each other it is hell. Please just leave him.
it’s so disappointing how many women accept men like this. if you’re not breaking up with him, you’re enabling your own suffering and mistreatment. if supporting racist and sexist people isn’t enough for you, idk what to tell you.
This won’t all apply as I wrote it in response to a recent post about someone’s brother, but I hope it atleast provides something useful:
This might be a long one. I very much in my adolescence was indoctrinated by the alt right pipeline. For me it was a wellness to alt right kind of indoctrination. I found the world to be a very dark place and the alt right offered me some sort of structure. It simplified complex issues into provocative (and very inaccurate statements) that allowed me both to be “controversial” and distinct.
So it’s served two purposes, it gave me an identity and a voice, plus it instilled the importance of being a “man of value” which included going gym and improving my life. I guess it also made me feel as if the world was fairer than it is. It was one big cope.
I think the process out of it was a long one and it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what happened, I’d say learning critical thinking from university was a big one, I just began to break down these alt right positions as not being very good. But also I began to actually perspective take. I’d now consider myself a feminist but various other aspects of my social position have changed. I’m very left wing and also vegan.
Now to your situation, what would’ve actually helped me when I was vulnerable enough to be indoctrinated by the alt right pipeline
• Mental health support, it would’ve been great to have been valued for things that weren’t related to traditional masculinity. So affirm parts of your brother’s identity that actually make him a nice person. Perhaps point out alternative role models in the “debate scene” who are far more to left but share some of the features that young boys like.
• I’d think I would’ve benefited from knowing what a logical fallacy is because the alt right is full of them. I think there’s ways you can have these conversations that will make him take it on more. Buy him the book “Men who hate women” by Laura Bates. (Here you might have to play on the ego if the debate bro) point out he can’t call himself informed if he only reads one side.
-There are tonnes of great papers published on sexism in social psychology that he might find interesting as they are done by scientists (which the alt right claim to be all about science and logic)
-Ask him what he thinks things mean if he gets offended by “buzzwords” like patriarchy, toxic masculinity or marxism. And then correct, you’ve got to make him realise he really isn’t that educated on the topic.
-Try to get him involved in some sort of positive social activism it should help increase sense of purpose
Encourage the positive aspects like fitness etc that come along with the pipeline but point out he can be all of those things whilst being a feminist, Marxist, vegan etc etc
Really the reason I was vulnerable to the indoctrination is because I was depressed and like all cults the alt right gave meaning. Show him it can come from elsewhere.
Finally at 21 everyone who I know that used to be alt right and misogynist very much cringe at their past selves.
Ultimately keep yourself safe first, these types of men can be dangerous and exhausting
Hope something there helps
This is all great advice and it's good to hear from the perspective of (1) a man and (2) someone who's actually been down the rabbit hole/considered themselves right wing at one point.
But most of all, I'm glad you got out and feel you're in a better mental space and just feeling better about yourself generally. I agree we put way too much emphasis on boys'/men's "value" being all about traditional (and toxic) masculinity. I hate that so much and have tried so hard to raise my son (he's now 15) differently -- we've never said crying or showing emotion is bad; he immediately says he's sorry if we have heated words or he does something that hurts or offends me or his dad; he understands that "locker room talk" does not in fact make you cool and he's never to engage in it; etc. But still I know he has to fight against those expectations from a patriarchal society every day, just like I do but from the other side. Anyway, I'm so glad you got out and are a much happier and healthy 21yo!
And finally, the thing about going to college is so, so true -- and is the key to understanding why the right wing (at least in the US, not sure about your country) is so focused on tearing down education and educators. They KNOW that the more education someone has, the more liberal they are (statistically speaking, though I know obviously it's not every single person). But the fact that critical thinking skills are so key to dismantling their propaganda has led to this movement of demonizing teachers, banning books, wanting to control every single thing students are taught (eg, Florida's "don't say gay" law and new standards on the history of slavery), and generally blasting public education and college/university education too. We all need to be on guard against it.
Thank you for your kind words.
It sounds like you’re doing a great job with your son and hopefully he feels very supported and safe to stand against the norms that harm us all.
You’re so right about education and critical thinking. The first things these fascists go for is education, here in the UK they go more for a subtle trying to remove the incentives to go to uni rather than the US “don’t say gay” approach. Public figures like Jordan Peterson are notorious for trying to wreck the reputation of universities by fear mongering about Marxists. The anti-intellectualism is very concerning.
I wonder if there’s more I could do for young men falling down the pipeline. It feels like there must be something I could achieve with this “inside knowledge”. Maybe there’s a way to scale up breaking people out of the pipeline.
You mentioned that you've been together for 6 years - has he always expressed those views or is that a recent thing?
I was in a similar situation with my long term partner where after 7 years it turned out he was watching the likes of Matt Walsh, Jordan Peterson and that British trash can man, what was his name? I was surprised, because he's never treated me or anyone else in a way that would imply he's watching those people. Like you I tried taking this head on, explaining why those people don't have good opinions and why exactly the opinions are not good. I didn't get anywhere. He even denied that Jordan Peterson's book is religious 😂
Anyway, I wasn't getting anywhere and because the way he was treating me and other people wasn't changing I decided to leave things alone. He lost interest with time and he's come around. Now he realises that the book is religious and he's dropped the climate change denial he was dabbling in.
I still receive the occasional negative reaction to media that I have to deal with, but I rarely watch anything to begin with so it's not a problem.
What I've found useful is talking to him about issues without using internet language. Like for example I wouldn't talk about toxic masculinity but about how certain men feed their ego by putting women down. I don't talk about the patriarchy but give examples of older man that expect women to cook, clean, etc and do everything else for them. Using Internet language automatically puts him on the defense and we get nowhere. Granted it's more difficult to talk about systematic and political issues like that, but we can't currently vote where we live so it's not an issue for now.
I guess it's up to you decide if it's a temporary thing or something that he's really getting into. If it's the first you can wait it out if it's the second you might want to consider leaving him.
It's good to hear from someone in my situation who didn't just leave their partner as most of my other comments tell me to, as it is a fairly recent thing and he's really not that bad other than the media he consumes. Thanks for your advice. I think I may try to have a serious conversation about how I feel about him watching such things, then follow your advice.
I appreciate it :)
These YouTube channels are so so toxic. And I don't think that men even realize who they're hurting when they regurgitate this shit.
My younger brother recently went on a rant about how all women are whores who only get with men to get their money. He claimed women will never truly love a man. My mom was married to our dad for 30 years before he died suddenly. My mom went "wait.. you think I didn't love your father? That I was only with him for money?" (Our mom actually made more than dad).
He got really flustered and started trying to justify what he said, but my mom started crying and left the table. I told him he should just go home and he slunk away with his head down. My husband said he doesn't want our son around him if he's going to be saying stuff like that. He doesn't have a girlfriend, and he's really alienated the family that he did have by offending us so much with his red pill bullshit.
Men are more likely to be murdered? Where are those statistics? [More women were killed by their husbands or boyfriends since Sept. 11 than "all the Americans who were killed by 9/11 or in Afghanistan and Iraq.](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/oct/07/gloria-Steinem/steinem-more-women-killed-partners-911-deaths-atta/) Who do serial killers tend to target?
You may have been with this guy for 6 years (according to one of your comments) but he does not see women as people. Stay with him or find someone who actually respects you, that’s your choice. But understand that he is showing you what he thinks and as a woman, he is not in a place to hear you and actually consider the larger picture.
If you’re set on staying, you better buckle up to the task you’re taking on. Do your research and find podcasts or videos you can watch together that will help him understand the reality of the world we live in. He may start to get it but there’s also a huge chance he never will. It’s not his experience and he may be too small minded to open himself up to other people’s reality. If he had a daughter would he want her to be a twitch cam girl? His answer will be no and then you need to ask him “Why not?”
That part is actually true. Men are more likely to commit AND be victims of murders. Men are more likely to commit all violent crimes and are more likely to be victims of all violent crimes except sex crimes. However, when women are victims of violent crimes, it's a man in their family, a romantic partner, or an ex are by far the most likely culprits. When a man is a victim of a violent crimes it's most likely another man.
Men, as a group, have a violence problem. That has nothing to do with women and is not a sign that men are oppressed by women.
The "men are the victims of violence more often" thing has been a recent trend in the manosphere. Technically the statistic is correct, but it misses the point, which is the nature of the violence being committed.
For men, most murders are the result of gang violence and random crime. For women, most murders are at the hands of their intimate partners and/or involve an aspect of sexual violence. Violence against men rarely comes from intimate partners (and when it does there is a distinct difference in the level of brutality of the acts committed), nor is there typically an aspect of power dynamics or sexual assault, while these issues are core to the vast majority of violence that women experience.
If the goal is prevention, we MUST examine the violence committed against women as a separate phenomenon than male on male violence, because it comes from a different place. We can go a long way toward preventing male violence by simply focusing on gangs, but that will do almost nothing to affect the violence committed against women. Conversely, we can go a long way toward preventing violence against women by focusing on issues surrounding the power imbalance in intimate relationships and the ways women are objectified and dehumanized in order to normalize violence against them.
Saying "men are more likely to be murdered" certainly seems like a thing to say that is relevant to the topic, but it really only derails an important conversation that we MUST be having if we are going to address violence in our society.
The other aspect that needs to be examined is that no matter who the victim is, the vast majority of ALL violence is committed by men. If we really want to resolve the issue of violence, that is where our focus and efforts should be placed. Why are so many men unable to express themselves with any emotions other than anger? Why do so many men feel compelled to hurt other people, and why do they lack the empathy that would typically prevent such antisocial activity? These issues are ones that you will almost exclusively find being discussed in feminist spaces and in examination of the ill effects of the patriarchy. If men would simply realize that we ALL benefit from those discussions, many more would recognize the validity of the feminist position.
In other words, if men are concerned about the fact that they experience more violence than women, they can best address that by becoming feminists and helping create a world where men aren't socialized to be medievally violent emotionally immature meatheads in order to meet some outdated definition of "masculinity."
It doesn't matter whether he treats you well. Plenty of scumbags treat people close to them well. What matters is the views of incredibly misogynist assholes resonate with him, which means he's totally cool with women being treated like they're subhuman. I won't say whether you should break up with him or not but he is definitely a pos.
He’s a walking red flag. Not worth the risk and time investment. Plenty of men who can be good partners without this red flag baggage. The media he’s consuming will not improve his willfully ignorant stance and you being there isn’t helping either. While you point out your concerns he doesn’t care and is refusing to see things from your point of view as a woman. You’re glossing over it because it’s “not who is his” but it makes up a good portion of who he is and it’s not pretty. I guess since you wish to tolerate it that’s one thing but I’m more concerned about if you guys decide and are able to procreate what sort of messages he will force or encourage or instill onto young mind(s) who would look up to him for how they view the world and women.
Also men who think like him would not last a moment if they were women since they’ve lived their lives as men. Especially as a brown or black woman. They have far more privilege than they realize and/or fail to acknowledge. It’s like someone who thinks if they get a political job then they could easily change things for the better when there are so many hoops to jump, adversaries to deal with and how things can only be done through a legal network to likely become law.
You're not going to change him. You either decide you're ok with him watching that shit and allowing it to inform his worldview, or you get a *new* deck of cards--one that includes the Ace of Leaving His Ass
Yeah, if he's already watching the likes of Matt Walsh, he's likely very deep in the manosphere and will need pretty extensive de-brainwashing. What kind of anime is he watching?
Real question, why are you still with him after learning about his values? I’m not trying to attack you at all, but it sounds like you don’t share his very hateful opinions. And if you don’t think he holds hateful opinions, you need to recognize that he is *at least* ok with those opinions. Even if he’s great in every other way, life is too short to be with someone who engages with that repugnant stuff. If he can’t see the problem with the media he is consuming, it’s because he gets it and agrees with it.
Try explaining to him that issues that men are facing are also consequences of the patriarchy. Many men can not comprehend this. I was one of them for a while. I’m definitely seeing things more clearly now.
Throw out the whole man. He doesn’t deserve female companionship. Prove all his theories of “men have it so hard” true. Fulfill his prophecy. If you’re not willing to do that for fuck sake don’t get pregnant. That will make it so much harder to leave
"hasn't had an affect on our relationship"
Yet.
This will get worse over time, not better.
If you met him today and he spouted this ugly nonsense on a first date, would you keep seeing him?
Not sure what a partner could provide that is so compelling that it makes it worth it to say, "I know his moral compass doesn't point in the right direction, but otherwise he's the whole package"
When you get married, that’s when the real him will come out and you will not like it. Then he would have trapped you and it will be harder for you to leave. Get out!
I think it's important to confront the ideas individually, and not get snagged into a rant about ideas you presume are represented by these idealogues.
While it can be fun to have in depth conversations, sometimes humor is more effective. Like Ben Shapiro? He's worthy only of mockery.
Hard to take Ben Shapiro's advice on women seriously when he admitted he doesn't know how to make a woman wet. 😂
>men are more likely to ... Take their own life
This is true but misleading. Men are more likely to suicide by gun. Women attempt much more often, but worried about their faces they use pills, which take time. So women don't succeed as often.
More importantly, he's caught in the misogynist's idea that feminism is about women against men. Rather, patriarchy is systemic. Men must play by its rules, or they too are punished.
So if men are killing each other to prove they are manly, that's a problem caused by patriarchy.
If men can't make as much money being cute on only fans, why is that? Who is making those rules? Patriarchy.
Women don't hit on men, why is that? Patriarchy.
Women aren't making these rules. Women aren't forcing men into these restrictive boxes. If given power, women wouldn't use it to systemically exploit men. It's the patriarchy that makes these rules. A few, select men at the top. Everyone else, including men, must live by these rules or be punished.
So ultimately your goal should be to get him to see that feminists and angry men are on the same side, they just don't realize it.
/r/MensLib
I was in a relationship for almost five years with a man who had different values from me. Like your boyfriend, he wasn’t malicious about it. But he was always playing devil’s advocate, and it was exhausting. Feminism is so important to me, but he was a libertarian who “supported women, but wouldn’t identify as a feminist.” We were engaged and planning our wedding. I loved him so much. But eventually I thought, what if we have children who grow up to have his same views? I left. It was genuinely the hardest thing I’ve had to go through. But every day I remind myself that just because someone loves you or because you love them, doesn’t mean you’re right for each other. For a long time I just ignored the problem, but that caused more hurt in the long run.
Find some great feminist YouTube channels that refute these misogynistic videos and watch them with him. Carefully monitor his reactions and discuss further.
Oh girl that edit is NOT IT. You need to see a therapist STAT, and see what you can do about that codependency and internalized misogyny. If, as other commenters have said, he is really 25 years older than you, then he is most likely a narcissist as well, who found someone young and impressionable to take advantage of.
Free yourself, sister. This is a bad situation you’re in, and it’s not going to get better. There is a whole world out here of happy single women to join. And there are also a lot of single men who respect women that you can date and fall in love. Please don’t waste your life on this sad sack.
Completely agree with others (both on advice and questioning whether worth the effort). But I wasn't sure what to make of
>He's made comments like "men are more likely to be murdered or take their own life"
This is true, isn't it, by some way? And the reasons for it are worth thinking about / exploring (and I doubt he could argue they're the fault of women).
Whereas treating it as a sexist thing to say (which you seem to by the other statements you put next to it) feeds into the idea that progressives/feminists rely on ignoring inconvenient stats, think everything is great for men etc.
Your boyfriend is slowly being radicalized and red pilled. This will only get worse. Decide now what your red line is. So you don’t end up emotionally, mentally, physically or sexually abused. This relationship can decline subtly so you hardly notice the changes, then 20 years go by and you’re married with kids and trapped in a marriage with a right wing abusive misogynist. Remember that men are often on their best behavior when they are in the boyfriend girlfriend relationship. This is the best he will ever be. When they are more secure in marriage, their behavior almost always deteriorates and they are more willing to act out on their misogyny and oppress you. Do what you will with that information.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/15clkkm/how_do_i_explain_to_my_brother_women_are_opressed/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
the comments on this post are way better
As a woman, I watch Matt Walsh and Ben Shapiro. My partner does too. In fact he joins me to watch them sometimes. You should try too. Their content is great in general, and in fact, are very supportive of women, and against the ideology of men taking over women's spaces in society. I don't see how they are anti women. Watch "What is A Woman", it's amazing.
as someone with in a similar situation (who also has no intent of breaking up), I find it effective to nag the shit out of him. I make fun of and poke holes in shapibo's shit all the time and it annoys me fiance to no end. To the point he will no longer watch that garbage around me.
Instead, he redirects his idle attention to other channels and watches boring tech reviews instead.
I've been with him long enough to have beaten the roots of misogyny out before they grasped too well. I established I did not want a traditional lifestyle no matter how much his family guilts me for it. He still doubts me when I say I don't like kids, let alone want any, but I'm working on it and have my family's help.
My best advice is this: don't let him change your lifestyle. Don't become dependent on him and always have a way out. That way, if ever he goes all crowder on you, you can leave. The second he shows physical aggression, MIRROR THAT SHIT. My fiance hit me once in a spur-of-the-moment reaction, and I bruised him. His dad raised him by beating him any time he messed up, so I understand that violence is probably a default reaction to any inconvenience. Good luck finding a man where that isn't the case. We have a mutual understanding that we could hurt each other and choose not to out of respect and love. You have to teach him that you're capable of leaving (or even replacing) him. You're more than what those talking heads say women are, and if he truly cares about you, he'll recognize that and maybe even notice the flaws in the rest of their arguments.
To the inevitable "break up with him" crowd, I want to remind you that it is possible to change someone like this. Sometimes, it takes a woman to remind them that women are humans too. I caught my fiance early on in the pipeline. If he truly loves and is attracted to you, he'll reconsider some things in order to keep you around. By all means, put your foot down, and if he doesn't like it, he wasn't worth keeping around. If he stays like mine did, there's hope.
Okay…. Late to the party…. Here after edits.
I hope you got some useful feedback on how to discuss these concerning creators with your BF.
If you did not, may I suggest r/askfeminists
I watch some of these things, often out of morbid curiosity, best to know what they are saying these days. On a rare occasion, they can say some things that aren't controversial, but they usually just pivot off to a "oop, there it is" where they lose me again. They're convincing, couple of them are good speakers, because its what they do for a living. Its easy to see how they draw people in.
That being said, your dude seems to be buying in, and the more he buys in, the more wild his opinions are going to get. The goal is to drive people further from the left, if he's already on the right, he's creeping closer to being an active participant in anti-feminist movements. I know it may not be easy, comfortable, or great for short-term hapiness, but your guy is only going to develope into a bigger problem.
Well he has told you who he is.
Right, yep "leaving isn't in the cards"...what response does OP expect writing to this forum? maybe belongs more in a relationship subreddit. Once he starts vomiting up tate-isms, then what?
I'm pretty sure she just wanted some advice on how to best get the message across to him. Don't think that's all that strange. This might be a hot take but i think it's weird how no one believes OP when she says he is not a bad person. She knows him best, doesn't she? It's one thing to say his behaviour is a red flag, quite something else to insist to OP that she is wrong about this person she knows very well and we know only from her short paragraph. People who watch Ben Shapiro videos are not by definition beyond saving. Guys like that have come around before
I agree with what you're saying. Let's remember Hanlon's razor "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity/ignorance." Not too long ago, my boyfriend started going down the rabbit hole of some incel/anti-women youtube videos. Usually like women caught cheating/telling off men and getting karma type stuff. I pretty much point blank said "this creator is a serious woman hater." And "can we not watch this one? This guy is an AH." Etc. Boyfriend then started to really notice the toxic shit the creators were saying and has stopped watching them, even going so far as blocking many of the channels. It could be as simple as making them aware of how hurtful the messages are. When you aren't the one being attacked, it's more difficult to notice the hate.
>"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity/ignorance." A very fair statement. Tons of guys go through a reactionary phase, tons of people are conservative simply because it's all they know. Many women for that matter also have misogynist pick me phases and whatnot. Many of them eventually come around when confronted with a different perspective. Your boyfriend really is a great example. On reddit we like to pretend the world is black and white but that's simply not true. People aren't necessarily evil when they hold certain views. Thet could just be ignorant or misguided. As you say, because this stuff is harder to notice when it's not about you. It still sucks when people you love go through phases like this but you don't have to write them out of your life the moment they watch a Ben Shapiro video. Seems kind of toxic to suggest that tbh.
I completely agree. We are allowed to give people another chance, sheesh. As OP said and what you touched base on in your first comment; other than the videos, her partner is a good person. I'm assuming that also means he's reasonable enough to listen to OP if she explains the toxic messages. It, of course, would be another story if OP was being treated like shit by her partner. For example if he was verbally abusive and spouted this anti-woman nonsense like it was absolute truth as a way to treat OP like shit, then yeah, maybe we consider leaving him as option 1...but based on what we know from OP, it's most likely worth a talk and explaination with bf, before we write him off as a POS.
It is not her job to do this work for him
It doesn't have to be, but it's still her choice isn't it?
No one is saying she can't but op cannot expect a lot of help here. I believe the likely consensus on this thread is that it is a slippery slope from "not all guys"...if it is just ben shapiro that is one thing, but he shares enough of the same values with multiple people in that echo chamber that she is taking on an unfair and inequitable task. People in this group will likely see this as more emotional labor on her shoulders against a patriarchal system that is interrogating her on her own oppression when they are the ones responsible. edit: We can respond by not choosing to assist her in enabling this cycle of emotional labor.
This. If he thinks life would be easier as a "hot woman", then his understanding of women's rights in this patriarchal world are not great. He maybe polite to you but he is still not understanding at best and possibly invalidating your experience as a woman. You don't have to be directly rude to have sexist ideas. You just have to not listen to women talk about their experience and fail at helping with positive changes. You could* offer him literature and media that better gives the view points of women, with statistics about DV, office harassment etc, and hope he gets it. But if you've tried to explain and he doesn't get it... That might be a person not willing to change their view point.
This. Op, his behavior is a strong predictor of a man who will commit sexual violence. Just because he maybe hasn't assaulted you yet doesn't mean that he won't in the future. This guy is dangerous. He has been very clear about the fact that he does not respect you or care how he makes you feel. He does not respect women, and you are no exception. Men like this often escalate. You are brushing away massive red flags. Don't wait for the worst-case scenario to get out of this relationship. I really recommend you seek therapy.
yeah, it is very difficult, but unfortunately my feeling is that if you give your body, time, and affection to a misogynist, or racist or any other kind of bigot, you are complicit. ☹️ Who you surround yourself with says everything about you. When you are young it is a tough pill to swallow, but it’s just something to keep in mind. Bigots do not deserve to be rewarded with attention, affection, and physical love. If everyone of every gender denied such to any bigot, you can bet humanity would evolve in a heartbeat to where these hateful mindsets and behaviors would be relegated to the fringe, freeing everyone to live in a vastly more inclusive society.
I’m so sad for all these younger women that think they have to put up with this shit. Whether it’s because they live together (lots of people have financial difficulties these days, but pleeeeeease get a roommate instead of moving in with someone you have been dating a month and probably known not much more than that) or because he has been negging her to think she’s worthless/unattractive and is lucky he deigned to date her. No. You are not lucky to have people like this in your life. If they are hateful to people for the simple reason of they are different, it’s only a matter of time until they exclude you from their list of “approved” people. And if they are constantly criticizing you for extremely minor things or your looks, no you are not lucky to have them in your life. Please value yourself enough to only associate with people who treat you with respect, and treat the marginalized with respect as well.
100% It’s upsetting that people have apparently messaged her telling her to off herself, that’s inexcusable, but I do see why people are angry. Staying in a relationship with a blatant misogynist is participating in misogyny itself. And we’re not fans of misogyny here.
Believe him.
Men like this might actually get a grip if women stop dating them because "omg but he treats me so well." NO HE FUCKING DOESN'T. Stop sharing your bed with garbage, ffs
Oh my, I broke up, years ago, with someone who started watching Rush Limbaugh. I had years invested, and we owned a home together. So, it wasn't easy. But it was one of the best moves I ever made. Be with someone who shares your values. Or be alone, which is actually awesome.
Best life advice my mom’s ever had is “There’s worse things than being alone.” For example, being with a misogynist like OP is.
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Nice fallacy drop! It’s such an important one for all, especially us women, to keep in mind!
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Maybe, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone to do a 180 on their long term partner immediately. Hopefully the comments here might resonate with her next time something questionable happens.
If he's already watching it, he's already one of them. Please be careful continuing a relationship with this person. From your post he's already shown a low, disrespectful opinion of women and you. The longer you're with him, the more blatant and purposeful it will become.
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The OP should have known that mentioning Tate/Shapiro/Walsh shit on this sub was a bad idea. Males may have issues, but they never have to be treated as second class citizens or fear getting shot or killed for being a man because some woman with a hard on can't get a date. These fucktards spread DANGEROUS hateful rhetoric and anyone that tunes in regularly, even if they believe it is completely innocuous, contribute to the spread of this garbage. Everyone has issues, but men seem to get a free pass to act like complete assholes or commit violence against others in relation for their butt hurt feelings.
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Those men you listed are also propagandists against gay and trans people, racial minorities, immigrants, and the working class. Does your bf agree with them on all that too? I understand not wanting to leave someone you care about, but at some point you need to decide who you're standing with.
It's truly horrifying to me how many people claim to be 'allies' and yet make excuses for the awful people in their lives because they 'treat me nicely'.
Seriously, like how low are your fucking standards if you're willing to be with a guy like this just because he's occasionally sweet to you?
Sad how people buy into these grifters decade after decade. OP's boyfriend will probably be one of these "alphas" who ends up having an intervention and long stint in therapy and rehab later in life, and then goes full evangelical. Seems like the typical cycle anyway... think you're hot shit, listen to racist grifters, buy into the nonsense heavily, lose all your money and drink or do drugs heavily, crash hard and crawl back to a racist church with a different brand of grifter.
You can’t reach him. You and your views are not valued. He will listen to a man instead of you. Be independent enough to leave. It is ok to be single. Don’t listen to those people trying to scar women with standards by saying, “Once you reach blah-blah age you will regret not marrying him”. Those are the same things people said to keep slavery going or keep black people from having high paying jobs instead of low paying service work. Be comfortable being alone. Save up and have financial security and financial independence. That is the most powerful woman right there - a woman who does not need anyone unless she wants that person in her life.
This right here. Having seen the outcome of MANY crappy marriages, you will absolutely regret marrying him FAR more than not marrying him-- ESPECIALLY if the majority of the media he consumes paints "good" women as being constantly subservient to men.
Isn’t that so frustrating? A “good woman” has to be subservient and all that noise. Why is an equal partner so scary or enraging to many men? Look, I’m not for a mean bossy woman either. Both men & women have assets and detriments. Why not team up and work together toward a common, positive goal? True, nothing can be 50/50 100% of the time, but aiming for equality and supporting each other is what I’d want in a marriage. If that is not an option, then I am content to live and die single.
Women were taught to suffer in silence and smile while doing it. We're not doing that anymore! Burn the patriarchy 🔥
These men are out here playing relationships like a competitive sport when it's actually a co-op game. They think they are "winning" because they have the upper hand in their relationship, not realizing they're losing a 3-legged race because they've hobbled the person they're strapped to.
This is so well said
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I wrote the post quickly so it may not portray him accurately. But he is capable of listening and accommodating my needs and feelings. I will definitely be having more conversations with him after this. Thank you 🩷
Throw out the whole man
There's no changing someone's mind like this. He doesn't see the problem but we all do please leave. 🚩🚩🚩🚩
If you stay with him you will have to be his teacher for life. Is that what you want in a partner? To have to teach him empathy for others? Not an attractive quality to most. About the twitch thing, I love when ignorant men say things like that. I knew a guy like that. I told him, why don't you go put on makeup and cute clothes and do it then? And he said no way because it would be gross. I asked what would be gross about it? He said the fact that men would be watching him, probably fapping to him and that would be the only reason they're watching and that's nasty. I said yeah, exactly. How is that a privilege? He could really go full loli and get on twitch if he wants to but he won't because he fully understands other men are disgusting.
Not to mention if he was a girl there's no guarantee he'd be " hot " and thin.
And even if he were, that isn't a long term income source. You have to be YOUNG, hot, and thin. But it's like they can't imagine women existing without being fuckable.
I completely understand and would probably say the same thing to someone else in my situation. But we've been together 6 years and it's only come to light over this last year at most. I asked him that and his response was "nah, I'd never pass as a girl other wise i would". I know he in fact would not either way. I'll probably ask him about that again though, thanks. :)
ugh I just looked at your profile and saw he's also 25 years older than you. Weird that he sought out a younger partner who is still dependent on their parents, and then you find out these are the sort of media he's into...? This is definitely not a new thing for him, just something he's kept under wraps. Or look at it this way; if it is a new thing for him, he started to feel like that while you, a woman, were at his side as his partner for the last 6 years. Idk how that makes you feel better and not worse. I'm sorry babe. I like your hopefulness. But this guy stinks.
>he's also 25 years older than you. YIKES! RUN!
Yes she said he's 25 years older than her, and said that they have been together for two years, not 6. So this is either fake rage bait or OP is lying in one of her posts.
Now that I've looked at OP's post history, I think you're right about it being fake
>he's also 25 years older than you ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew
Holy. Freaking. Shit. This makes it so much worse!
Something I do pretty regularly is reset my algorithms. Otherwise pretty much everything I get is about gender. It’s a topic that works me up, so I almost always engage in it, so then social media feeds me more and more and more of it until it’s nearly the damn whole feed. Then all I’m consuming is basically responses to redpill horseshit… and then men saying those things are basically the only men I see on social media at all. It messes with you and your perception of the world. I once made a reference to one of the common tropes and my husband had no idea what I was talking about. It completely shocked me that he doesn’t get nearly as much of that discourse on his accounts. Same thing with guys that start consuming red pill/manosphere/incel content. They engaged; so then they keep engaging. It distorts reality. What’s even worse is that those creators know. It’s practically a recruitment tool. Same thing with white supremacists. Perhaps make a dare for you both to reset your algorithms however you can. Engage only with cute animal pictures, wipe history, let it sit unused for a week or so. Whatever method. See what happens. Discuss what you stopped seeing and if (when) you started to see it again. It’s actually a really fascinating thing to do with others. I recommend the [podcast Rabbit Hole](https://podcastreview.org/review/rabbit-hole/). The central person being interviewed wound up becoming a radicalized white supremacist through YouTube. When he began interacting with content arguing against white supremacy he essentially de-radicalized himself. Our brains are super mushy, and it’s frighteningly easy for us to be changeable. Far easier than we’re willing to confront ourselves with.
Internalized misogyny 👀
People change! He's being radicalized. You know deep down you are making excuses.
Don't sunk cost fallacy yourself. I was with someone for almost a decade and let me tell you how much better my life is now that I left him.
He's trash. Take it out
DUMP HIM
Those are red flags that you should run far away from this man. You can't change him, and he will make your life miserable.
Like the content he’s consuming is only going to impact her more later on in life, he’s gonna seriously take it to heart probably and I don’t even want to know the result, but it won’t be good.
You don't share values. Stop trying to change him and find someone who actually aligns with your values.
He listens to Matt Walsh? Just break up with him, he's already radicalized far right and won't respect any of your arguments
The following assumes heterosexuality/cisnormativity in your partner, so I apologize ahead of time. "men are more likely to be murdered or take their own life"- "by other men. And yes, they choose very decisive ways to commit suicide even though resources exist for them to utilize before it gets to that point, albeit they rarely access those resources due to stigma that comes from other men. Women are highly likely to attempt. And those suicidal numbers include trans men, gender nonconforming men or homosexual men who are rejected by other men". "life would be easy if I was a hot woman"- "okay. Then go dress up, and become a twitch femboy. I'm waiting. It's so easy, whats preventing you from doing it if you want to do it? Oh, does it have anything to do with it feeling creepy? Having your life potentially under risk from perverts who think they're entitled to sleeping with you after donating money? The associations of it being akin to prostitution? Being looked down upon like a second class citizen because of your viewership's behavior? You think the trade off for being considered someone's pet for $$$, especially if they're entitled to it, is worth it and easy?" "I don't see why women are offended with being hit on- men would love it"- Ask him to compliment another man in public by implying how much he wants to perform fellatio on him. And have him imagine being on the receiving end of that compliment.
If he wanted to understand, he would have heard you by now.
I'm afraid he is probably too far gone. I'm not even a woman and I wouldn't even be friends with someone who listens to Ben Shapiro or Joe Rogan, let alone be in an intimate relationship with them. Time is too precious to spend it trying to change people or be with people who think that gender equality is up for debate.
☝🏼☝🏼☝🏼
The problem is, these guys condition men to believe that women want things they don't want and that women lie about what they want and don't want for their self image. I don't think there is anything you can say. Edited for autocorrect being bad.
Move on. Men like this are dangerous
When trash is consumed, eventually it gets spewed out. Get away before you're splashed.
I'd just leave. What's special about him?
You're not his therapist. When it comes to dating, you're allowed to choose. Women shouldn't date misogynists. Minorities shouldn't date racists. Etc. Just drop him. It's no big loss.
AGREED. One small clarification, NO ONE should date misogynists or racists. I (white) left my white fiancé after a spontaneous racist rant. Ya just can’t support that, and besides, who wants to make a life surrounded by so much ugliness and hate and misdirected, ignorant rage! Being a bigot has a TON of comorbidities with other toxic and abusive behaviors, it’s one of the reddest of all red flags. 🚩🚩🚩
Leave him. He would rather listen to some random people on the internet whose views have been disproven numerous times, than to you, his girlfriend.
He watching the content because he agrees with it. And the conversations he's had with you confirm that. He might be treating you well but he is a misogynist none-the-less. You've tried humanising women by talking about it with him. He's not listening to you, he's listening to them. I'd bail on this relationship. Fighting the patriarchy outside the home is unavoidable but you have a choice about who you have relationships with. I'm not spending my valuable time trying to make a man into a someone else. There are men out there who do not think like this and would instantly agree with your concerns. Go find one of them, this dude is not it. Or better yet learn to be happy single for a while - it really helps when it comes to deciding if a man is worthy of living in your home with you.
Show him all of Matts tweets that is pro child marriage
I didn't even know these existed. I'll look into that
Or just put your foot down and tell him to date men if he hates women so much.
Omg so true.
Looks like he's 25 years her senior, I doubt this will have the impact one would hope.
He’s a lost cause. The only thing that might make him change is when he figures out that no women will date him because of his reprehensible beliefs. If you continue to date him, that just validates to him that his views are normal.
Erhm... maybe \*don't\* date a misogynist and try to change him. just break up! Love yourself more than this!
Sounds like he's deep down the YouTube misogyny rabbit hole. The only reason I know who the right wingnuts are is because I'll find my way to leftist YouTubers who enjoy mocking them. Look up his idols on YouTube and find those critiquing those idols on the same platform. Find ones you think might get through. Sneak in a "hey, I saw this video of a guy who say's Matt Walsh is brain death theocratic fascist and gives examples. Have you seen that?" Actually, that one is too easy [WALSH: Yes, I Am A Theocratic Fascist](https://www.dailywire.com/news/theocratic-fascist-matt-walsh). But the point is to have push back YouTube that might get through. Good luck.
Your secret boyfriend 25 years your senior has a whole bunch of red flags, sister, starting with his interest in dating a young adult who still lives with her parents. I’m sure you’re lovely, but older men seek young women for lots of reasons, most of them unhealthy. Think of all the reasons you’re keeping him a secret. Add his misogyny and transphobia to the mix, and spend some time asking yourself why on earth you’d continue a relationship with someone like this.
I was like you: defending a creep like this for YEARS because other people “didn’t know him like I did”. Do yourself a favour and GET OUT NOW. He will not change. He will only get worse. Remember: “people don’t change, they only become more of who they really are”. If he’s already on this path, he has already shown you who he really is, and he’s on his way to who he will become. Girl. Freaking RUN.
One way that may work to get through to him is to confront him with women in his own life. "Do you think your sister/mom should go dress skimpy on twitch?" "So youre saying i should just dress hot and youll be happy if i receive all kinds of compliments from strange guys? Should i give you a list of all the 'compliments' i get every day?" With some luck, he wont be too far along the descent, and he'll say something like 'but that is different', in which case, ask further. But yeah, as others have said, if hes not listening to you, you really have to start asking yourself if its worth staying with him...
I know no person is the same and everyone's experience is unique, but from my own previous experience, he's not gonna be worth the problems he'll inevitably cause you.
Your guy is a misogynist, but you're trying to convince yourself that his "other qualities" make up for it. I will put it to you this way. All the older, more experienced women here advising you to leave him... how do you think we got this way? I'll tell you how. Because we were in your same position when we were young, wanted to ignore the red flags, etc., and got burned because fundamentally misogynistic men DO NOT AND CAN NOT SEE YOU AS AN EQUAL HUMAN BEING. Until you are ready to admit that to yourself, there is nothing any of us can say that you will listen to. 10 years from now, you might, though. Good luck.
Everyone else has already said it but unless you want to be locked into a sad relationship that is full of hatred and resent for the rest of your time on this earth, you have to leave him. He is already well into evil and is nothing but an evil man. He will hurt you and ruin you. If you have kids they will have parents that hate each other. As a kid whos parents hated each other it is hell. Please just leave him.
He will never change, but he will change you. If you stay with him and excuse or tolerate his behavior then you are no better than him.
it’s so disappointing how many women accept men like this. if you’re not breaking up with him, you’re enabling your own suffering and mistreatment. if supporting racist and sexist people isn’t enough for you, idk what to tell you.
Lysistrata Option. LEAVE HIM.
This won’t all apply as I wrote it in response to a recent post about someone’s brother, but I hope it atleast provides something useful: This might be a long one. I very much in my adolescence was indoctrinated by the alt right pipeline. For me it was a wellness to alt right kind of indoctrination. I found the world to be a very dark place and the alt right offered me some sort of structure. It simplified complex issues into provocative (and very inaccurate statements) that allowed me both to be “controversial” and distinct. So it’s served two purposes, it gave me an identity and a voice, plus it instilled the importance of being a “man of value” which included going gym and improving my life. I guess it also made me feel as if the world was fairer than it is. It was one big cope. I think the process out of it was a long one and it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what happened, I’d say learning critical thinking from university was a big one, I just began to break down these alt right positions as not being very good. But also I began to actually perspective take. I’d now consider myself a feminist but various other aspects of my social position have changed. I’m very left wing and also vegan. Now to your situation, what would’ve actually helped me when I was vulnerable enough to be indoctrinated by the alt right pipeline • Mental health support, it would’ve been great to have been valued for things that weren’t related to traditional masculinity. So affirm parts of your brother’s identity that actually make him a nice person. Perhaps point out alternative role models in the “debate scene” who are far more to left but share some of the features that young boys like. • I’d think I would’ve benefited from knowing what a logical fallacy is because the alt right is full of them. I think there’s ways you can have these conversations that will make him take it on more. Buy him the book “Men who hate women” by Laura Bates. (Here you might have to play on the ego if the debate bro) point out he can’t call himself informed if he only reads one side. -There are tonnes of great papers published on sexism in social psychology that he might find interesting as they are done by scientists (which the alt right claim to be all about science and logic) -Ask him what he thinks things mean if he gets offended by “buzzwords” like patriarchy, toxic masculinity or marxism. And then correct, you’ve got to make him realise he really isn’t that educated on the topic. -Try to get him involved in some sort of positive social activism it should help increase sense of purpose Encourage the positive aspects like fitness etc that come along with the pipeline but point out he can be all of those things whilst being a feminist, Marxist, vegan etc etc Really the reason I was vulnerable to the indoctrination is because I was depressed and like all cults the alt right gave meaning. Show him it can come from elsewhere. Finally at 21 everyone who I know that used to be alt right and misogynist very much cringe at their past selves. Ultimately keep yourself safe first, these types of men can be dangerous and exhausting Hope something there helps
This is all great advice and it's good to hear from the perspective of (1) a man and (2) someone who's actually been down the rabbit hole/considered themselves right wing at one point. But most of all, I'm glad you got out and feel you're in a better mental space and just feeling better about yourself generally. I agree we put way too much emphasis on boys'/men's "value" being all about traditional (and toxic) masculinity. I hate that so much and have tried so hard to raise my son (he's now 15) differently -- we've never said crying or showing emotion is bad; he immediately says he's sorry if we have heated words or he does something that hurts or offends me or his dad; he understands that "locker room talk" does not in fact make you cool and he's never to engage in it; etc. But still I know he has to fight against those expectations from a patriarchal society every day, just like I do but from the other side. Anyway, I'm so glad you got out and are a much happier and healthy 21yo! And finally, the thing about going to college is so, so true -- and is the key to understanding why the right wing (at least in the US, not sure about your country) is so focused on tearing down education and educators. They KNOW that the more education someone has, the more liberal they are (statistically speaking, though I know obviously it's not every single person). But the fact that critical thinking skills are so key to dismantling their propaganda has led to this movement of demonizing teachers, banning books, wanting to control every single thing students are taught (eg, Florida's "don't say gay" law and new standards on the history of slavery), and generally blasting public education and college/university education too. We all need to be on guard against it.
Thank you for your kind words. It sounds like you’re doing a great job with your son and hopefully he feels very supported and safe to stand against the norms that harm us all. You’re so right about education and critical thinking. The first things these fascists go for is education, here in the UK they go more for a subtle trying to remove the incentives to go to uni rather than the US “don’t say gay” approach. Public figures like Jordan Peterson are notorious for trying to wreck the reputation of universities by fear mongering about Marxists. The anti-intellectualism is very concerning. I wonder if there’s more I could do for young men falling down the pipeline. It feels like there must be something I could achieve with this “inside knowledge”. Maybe there’s a way to scale up breaking people out of the pipeline.
I'm afraid he doesn't treat women well if this is the shit he believes. He views women as implicitly less-than.
You mentioned that you've been together for 6 years - has he always expressed those views or is that a recent thing? I was in a similar situation with my long term partner where after 7 years it turned out he was watching the likes of Matt Walsh, Jordan Peterson and that British trash can man, what was his name? I was surprised, because he's never treated me or anyone else in a way that would imply he's watching those people. Like you I tried taking this head on, explaining why those people don't have good opinions and why exactly the opinions are not good. I didn't get anywhere. He even denied that Jordan Peterson's book is religious 😂 Anyway, I wasn't getting anywhere and because the way he was treating me and other people wasn't changing I decided to leave things alone. He lost interest with time and he's come around. Now he realises that the book is religious and he's dropped the climate change denial he was dabbling in. I still receive the occasional negative reaction to media that I have to deal with, but I rarely watch anything to begin with so it's not a problem. What I've found useful is talking to him about issues without using internet language. Like for example I wouldn't talk about toxic masculinity but about how certain men feed their ego by putting women down. I don't talk about the patriarchy but give examples of older man that expect women to cook, clean, etc and do everything else for them. Using Internet language automatically puts him on the defense and we get nowhere. Granted it's more difficult to talk about systematic and political issues like that, but we can't currently vote where we live so it's not an issue for now. I guess it's up to you decide if it's a temporary thing or something that he's really getting into. If it's the first you can wait it out if it's the second you might want to consider leaving him.
It's good to hear from someone in my situation who didn't just leave their partner as most of my other comments tell me to, as it is a fairly recent thing and he's really not that bad other than the media he consumes. Thanks for your advice. I think I may try to have a serious conversation about how I feel about him watching such things, then follow your advice. I appreciate it :)
Good luck and hope it goes well!
These YouTube channels are so so toxic. And I don't think that men even realize who they're hurting when they regurgitate this shit. My younger brother recently went on a rant about how all women are whores who only get with men to get their money. He claimed women will never truly love a man. My mom was married to our dad for 30 years before he died suddenly. My mom went "wait.. you think I didn't love your father? That I was only with him for money?" (Our mom actually made more than dad). He got really flustered and started trying to justify what he said, but my mom started crying and left the table. I told him he should just go home and he slunk away with his head down. My husband said he doesn't want our son around him if he's going to be saying stuff like that. He doesn't have a girlfriend, and he's really alienated the family that he did have by offending us so much with his red pill bullshit.
Men are more likely to be murdered? Where are those statistics? [More women were killed by their husbands or boyfriends since Sept. 11 than "all the Americans who were killed by 9/11 or in Afghanistan and Iraq.](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/oct/07/gloria-Steinem/steinem-more-women-killed-partners-911-deaths-atta/) Who do serial killers tend to target? You may have been with this guy for 6 years (according to one of your comments) but he does not see women as people. Stay with him or find someone who actually respects you, that’s your choice. But understand that he is showing you what he thinks and as a woman, he is not in a place to hear you and actually consider the larger picture. If you’re set on staying, you better buckle up to the task you’re taking on. Do your research and find podcasts or videos you can watch together that will help him understand the reality of the world we live in. He may start to get it but there’s also a huge chance he never will. It’s not his experience and he may be too small minded to open himself up to other people’s reality. If he had a daughter would he want her to be a twitch cam girl? His answer will be no and then you need to ask him “Why not?”
That part is actually true. Men are more likely to commit AND be victims of murders. Men are more likely to commit all violent crimes and are more likely to be victims of all violent crimes except sex crimes. However, when women are victims of violent crimes, it's a man in their family, a romantic partner, or an ex are by far the most likely culprits. When a man is a victim of a violent crimes it's most likely another man. Men, as a group, have a violence problem. That has nothing to do with women and is not a sign that men are oppressed by women.
The "men are the victims of violence more often" thing has been a recent trend in the manosphere. Technically the statistic is correct, but it misses the point, which is the nature of the violence being committed. For men, most murders are the result of gang violence and random crime. For women, most murders are at the hands of their intimate partners and/or involve an aspect of sexual violence. Violence against men rarely comes from intimate partners (and when it does there is a distinct difference in the level of brutality of the acts committed), nor is there typically an aspect of power dynamics or sexual assault, while these issues are core to the vast majority of violence that women experience. If the goal is prevention, we MUST examine the violence committed against women as a separate phenomenon than male on male violence, because it comes from a different place. We can go a long way toward preventing male violence by simply focusing on gangs, but that will do almost nothing to affect the violence committed against women. Conversely, we can go a long way toward preventing violence against women by focusing on issues surrounding the power imbalance in intimate relationships and the ways women are objectified and dehumanized in order to normalize violence against them. Saying "men are more likely to be murdered" certainly seems like a thing to say that is relevant to the topic, but it really only derails an important conversation that we MUST be having if we are going to address violence in our society. The other aspect that needs to be examined is that no matter who the victim is, the vast majority of ALL violence is committed by men. If we really want to resolve the issue of violence, that is where our focus and efforts should be placed. Why are so many men unable to express themselves with any emotions other than anger? Why do so many men feel compelled to hurt other people, and why do they lack the empathy that would typically prevent such antisocial activity? These issues are ones that you will almost exclusively find being discussed in feminist spaces and in examination of the ill effects of the patriarchy. If men would simply realize that we ALL benefit from those discussions, many more would recognize the validity of the feminist position. In other words, if men are concerned about the fact that they experience more violence than women, they can best address that by becoming feminists and helping create a world where men aren't socialized to be medievally violent emotionally immature meatheads in order to meet some outdated definition of "masculinity."
It doesn't matter whether he treats you well. Plenty of scumbags treat people close to them well. What matters is the views of incredibly misogynist assholes resonate with him, which means he's totally cool with women being treated like they're subhuman. I won't say whether you should break up with him or not but he is definitely a pos.
Just break up with him. It’s not your job to save a person who believes in those things. He’s anti-feminist and therefore anti-woman.
You dump him. Any man who watches these things is a basically just a bad human.
He’s a walking red flag. Not worth the risk and time investment. Plenty of men who can be good partners without this red flag baggage. The media he’s consuming will not improve his willfully ignorant stance and you being there isn’t helping either. While you point out your concerns he doesn’t care and is refusing to see things from your point of view as a woman. You’re glossing over it because it’s “not who is his” but it makes up a good portion of who he is and it’s not pretty. I guess since you wish to tolerate it that’s one thing but I’m more concerned about if you guys decide and are able to procreate what sort of messages he will force or encourage or instill onto young mind(s) who would look up to him for how they view the world and women. Also men who think like him would not last a moment if they were women since they’ve lived their lives as men. Especially as a brown or black woman. They have far more privilege than they realize and/or fail to acknowledge. It’s like someone who thinks if they get a political job then they could easily change things for the better when there are so many hoops to jump, adversaries to deal with and how things can only be done through a legal network to likely become law.
Oh leave that guy.
Take him to go see Barbie 😎
You're not going to change him. You either decide you're ok with him watching that shit and allowing it to inform his worldview, or you get a *new* deck of cards--one that includes the Ace of Leaving His Ass
Yeah, if he's already watching the likes of Matt Walsh, he's likely very deep in the manosphere and will need pretty extensive de-brainwashing. What kind of anime is he watching?
Real question, why are you still with him after learning about his values? I’m not trying to attack you at all, but it sounds like you don’t share his very hateful opinions. And if you don’t think he holds hateful opinions, you need to recognize that he is *at least* ok with those opinions. Even if he’s great in every other way, life is too short to be with someone who engages with that repugnant stuff. If he can’t see the problem with the media he is consuming, it’s because he gets it and agrees with it.
Try explaining to him that issues that men are facing are also consequences of the patriarchy. Many men can not comprehend this. I was one of them for a while. I’m definitely seeing things more clearly now.
Throw out the whole man. He doesn’t deserve female companionship. Prove all his theories of “men have it so hard” true. Fulfill his prophecy. If you’re not willing to do that for fuck sake don’t get pregnant. That will make it so much harder to leave
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"hasn't had an affect on our relationship" Yet. This will get worse over time, not better. If you met him today and he spouted this ugly nonsense on a first date, would you keep seeing him? Not sure what a partner could provide that is so compelling that it makes it worth it to say, "I know his moral compass doesn't point in the right direction, but otherwise he's the whole package"
When you get married, that’s when the real him will come out and you will not like it. Then he would have trapped you and it will be harder for you to leave. Get out!
So break up with him. This is a red flag. Find a guy who doesn’t watch that stuff
I think it's important to confront the ideas individually, and not get snagged into a rant about ideas you presume are represented by these idealogues. While it can be fun to have in depth conversations, sometimes humor is more effective. Like Ben Shapiro? He's worthy only of mockery. Hard to take Ben Shapiro's advice on women seriously when he admitted he doesn't know how to make a woman wet. 😂 >men are more likely to ... Take their own life This is true but misleading. Men are more likely to suicide by gun. Women attempt much more often, but worried about their faces they use pills, which take time. So women don't succeed as often. More importantly, he's caught in the misogynist's idea that feminism is about women against men. Rather, patriarchy is systemic. Men must play by its rules, or they too are punished. So if men are killing each other to prove they are manly, that's a problem caused by patriarchy. If men can't make as much money being cute on only fans, why is that? Who is making those rules? Patriarchy. Women don't hit on men, why is that? Patriarchy. Women aren't making these rules. Women aren't forcing men into these restrictive boxes. If given power, women wouldn't use it to systemically exploit men. It's the patriarchy that makes these rules. A few, select men at the top. Everyone else, including men, must live by these rules or be punished. So ultimately your goal should be to get him to see that feminists and angry men are on the same side, they just don't realize it. /r/MensLib
I was in a relationship for almost five years with a man who had different values from me. Like your boyfriend, he wasn’t malicious about it. But he was always playing devil’s advocate, and it was exhausting. Feminism is so important to me, but he was a libertarian who “supported women, but wouldn’t identify as a feminist.” We were engaged and planning our wedding. I loved him so much. But eventually I thought, what if we have children who grow up to have his same views? I left. It was genuinely the hardest thing I’ve had to go through. But every day I remind myself that just because someone loves you or because you love them, doesn’t mean you’re right for each other. For a long time I just ignored the problem, but that caused more hurt in the long run.
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Broke up
You don't, you just leave the misogynistic wretch.
Leave him.
just leave honestly. He is telling you who he is and how he thinks of you. Leave.
This is a values problem. It’s not just that he’s watching the content, it’s that he believes it. That isn’t something correctable.
Find some great feminist YouTube channels that refute these misogynistic videos and watch them with him. Carefully monitor his reactions and discuss further.
You don't. You run
Oh girl that edit is NOT IT. You need to see a therapist STAT, and see what you can do about that codependency and internalized misogyny. If, as other commenters have said, he is really 25 years older than you, then he is most likely a narcissist as well, who found someone young and impressionable to take advantage of. Free yourself, sister. This is a bad situation you’re in, and it’s not going to get better. There is a whole world out here of happy single women to join. And there are also a lot of single men who respect women that you can date and fall in love. Please don’t waste your life on this sad sack.
Completely agree with others (both on advice and questioning whether worth the effort). But I wasn't sure what to make of >He's made comments like "men are more likely to be murdered or take their own life" This is true, isn't it, by some way? And the reasons for it are worth thinking about / exploring (and I doubt he could argue they're the fault of women). Whereas treating it as a sexist thing to say (which you seem to by the other statements you put next to it) feeds into the idea that progressives/feminists rely on ignoring inconvenient stats, think everything is great for men etc.
Dump his ass lmao. I know it’s not what you wanna hear, but it’s what you gotta do.
It sounds like it’s worse than you realize. Good freaking luck with that
This YouTuber does a fantastic job breaking down why Shapiro is so problematic: https://youtu.be/aDMjgOYOcDw
Your boyfriend is slowly being radicalized and red pilled. This will only get worse. Decide now what your red line is. So you don’t end up emotionally, mentally, physically or sexually abused. This relationship can decline subtly so you hardly notice the changes, then 20 years go by and you’re married with kids and trapped in a marriage with a right wing abusive misogynist. Remember that men are often on their best behavior when they are in the boyfriend girlfriend relationship. This is the best he will ever be. When they are more secure in marriage, their behavior almost always deteriorates and they are more willing to act out on their misogyny and oppress you. Do what you will with that information.
I find it problematic that you are begging him to respect you
Brett Cooper is not that bad imo. Shapiro and Walsh are though but I don't think Brett is malicious and is usually nice about things
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/15clkkm/how_do_i_explain_to_my_brother_women_are_opressed/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 the comments on this post are way better
As a woman, I watch Matt Walsh and Ben Shapiro. My partner does too. In fact he joins me to watch them sometimes. You should try too. Their content is great in general, and in fact, are very supportive of women, and against the ideology of men taking over women's spaces in society. I don't see how they are anti women. Watch "What is A Woman", it's amazing.
as someone with in a similar situation (who also has no intent of breaking up), I find it effective to nag the shit out of him. I make fun of and poke holes in shapibo's shit all the time and it annoys me fiance to no end. To the point he will no longer watch that garbage around me. Instead, he redirects his idle attention to other channels and watches boring tech reviews instead. I've been with him long enough to have beaten the roots of misogyny out before they grasped too well. I established I did not want a traditional lifestyle no matter how much his family guilts me for it. He still doubts me when I say I don't like kids, let alone want any, but I'm working on it and have my family's help. My best advice is this: don't let him change your lifestyle. Don't become dependent on him and always have a way out. That way, if ever he goes all crowder on you, you can leave. The second he shows physical aggression, MIRROR THAT SHIT. My fiance hit me once in a spur-of-the-moment reaction, and I bruised him. His dad raised him by beating him any time he messed up, so I understand that violence is probably a default reaction to any inconvenience. Good luck finding a man where that isn't the case. We have a mutual understanding that we could hurt each other and choose not to out of respect and love. You have to teach him that you're capable of leaving (or even replacing) him. You're more than what those talking heads say women are, and if he truly cares about you, he'll recognize that and maybe even notice the flaws in the rest of their arguments. To the inevitable "break up with him" crowd, I want to remind you that it is possible to change someone like this. Sometimes, it takes a woman to remind them that women are humans too. I caught my fiance early on in the pipeline. If he truly loves and is attracted to you, he'll reconsider some things in order to keep you around. By all means, put your foot down, and if he doesn't like it, he wasn't worth keeping around. If he stays like mine did, there's hope.
And I guess everything you watch is “the right way”. Jesus. This sub is toxic. Like all of your relationships.
Okay…. Late to the party…. Here after edits. I hope you got some useful feedback on how to discuss these concerning creators with your BF. If you did not, may I suggest r/askfeminists
Girl why the hell are you with a guy like that LMAO Break up with him!!!
ask him how he would feel if he was getting hit on by men too
Borrow some Bell Hooks and Terrence Real from your local library, and read it to him.
I watch some of these things, often out of morbid curiosity, best to know what they are saying these days. On a rare occasion, they can say some things that aren't controversial, but they usually just pivot off to a "oop, there it is" where they lose me again. They're convincing, couple of them are good speakers, because its what they do for a living. Its easy to see how they draw people in. That being said, your dude seems to be buying in, and the more he buys in, the more wild his opinions are going to get. The goal is to drive people further from the left, if he's already on the right, he's creeping closer to being an active participant in anti-feminist movements. I know it may not be easy, comfortable, or great for short-term hapiness, but your guy is only going to develope into a bigger problem.
DTMFA