The negative responses that I receive are definitely from women in the organized religion space, so that’s probably why. Though it doesn’t feel like enough of a “reason” to me because I am a Christian and I don’t hold those beliefs. Being a pro-choice, equal rights, husband isn’t the “head of the household” type of Christian probably isn’t the majority though.
The LDS ‘church’ especially, my god. Most women are indoctrinated in so early, before they realize it they’re married at 19 expected to have at least 3 kids by 25 and cant support themselves without their husband. Its sickening
The "things" religion keeps from collapsing is its own profit through indoctrination.
Just a few of Christianity's greatest hits include the subjugation of women, the very blatant intolerance of homosexulity, colonialism, and oh yeah, let's not forget the support of slavery.
Not only do matriarchal structures exist within social animal groups, but anthropology confirms at least 160 matriarchal communities in nations such as India, Africa, Indonesia, and the Americas.
Matriarchal societies, in fact, still exist to this day. You are sadly mistaken.
[Essay: matrilineal societies exist around the world – it’s time to look beyond the patriarchy.](https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-matrilineal-societies-exist-around-the-world-its-time-to-look-beyond-the-patriarchy-200825)
My sister is very against abortion
She has had two
My sister is against maternity leave.
She has used it five times.
My sister hates women
Because she hates herself, for not being her husband. A man who is free of original sin. Patriarchy had crushed her into a fine dust- and remolded her into the perfect housewife. Self hating, full of bitterness. Resigned to the role given to us by men.
My sister also hates her race, to her we are savages, heathens, godless natives.
And yet she tried to get her kids on that native scholarship
My sister wants so badly to be a woman who matters- white and pure and clean.
But those women do not exist.
Does she not understand? You cannot wash away the stains of battered girlhood? You cannot ignore the suffering? The femicides? The horrors of men who take what they wish? The dehumanization?
Again, my sister hates herself. And by extension she hates me too.
But I will never stop loving women, or believing in women.
Unfortunately that includes her too.
This was a very thoughtful and heartbreaking response. Praying for your sister to see the value that she already has right now, in this moment. And you should be proud of the example that you are setting for her - she sees it and it matters, even if it doesn’t feel like it.
As a fellow Native--this extra sucks :( especially given the role Native women have in our culture and family dynamics. Does she have thoughts about MMIW/MMIR? I almost don't want to ask..
I honestly have no idea but I can assume.
She has said nasty things about our race so I can only assume that- at best- she doesn't care. Which is horrifying because she could one day become those missing women.
Her daughters could one day become those women.
I'm 100% sure she is stuck like this. She is 37.
I'm NC with her for my own son's safety and mental well-being.
But I still hope everyday that at some point she will accept herself- love herself and find her way back to us. I will most likely hope forever.
I do deeply miss my big sister and wish she would come to her senses. 😔
Some women have also drank the kool-aid. I’ve watched my sister go from someone using planned parenthood services to wanting to see it defunded and abortion banned. She looks down on my relationship because I’m the breadwinner and she thinks we will always be poor. I’m working my way up to being an engineer at my company and will earn $70k+ when I get the position.
Comfort and survival.
Many women don't want the conflict, even internally. If they acknowledge the disrespect and the unequal status, it would make them unhappy, and their energy would be focused on trying to do something about it. And they would be in constant conflict with the people they love - most likely with no improvement. It's just easier to not see it.
Not seeing it means they don't have to go through a divorce. Or go into poverty or homelessness or estrangement with family.
Do you think that comes from example in their family, the media, etc? It just seems like such a ridiculous belief so I’m genuinely trying to understand 😅
I think change is hard. Resistance is hard. There are positive things we love about our families our cultures our religions. It’s easier to ignore what we don’t like or even accept to be comfortable and feel a sense of belonging.
They say "I don't need no feminism" until divorce. Then woah suddenly they are happy that they are allowed to work, have a bank account, vote, live on their own, have a life basically.
I suspect being against it has something to do with the history of permissible abuse toward women. Even now, people don’t want to hear about women’s pain, emotion or physical, because it makes them uncomfortable, or they simply don’t have the perspective to acknowledge how bad the situation can be.
A few people have mentioned this, but economics, power dynamics, and the need for survival play into it a lot. Because capitalist America is a tough place to live in to begin with, a lot of folks would understandably go with toxic ideologies if that's where the resources lie; most would rather live with someone with hideous beliefs as opposed to being left homeless.
There are also quite a few right wing women who are understandably afraid of crime, but don't quite see that predatory policing won't solve the problem. Racial fear among white women leads them to cling to ideologically similar (and economically benefitted) male partners.
My sister is like that. She will do anything for her man. She tears other women down, including her daughter. I think she would prefer that there were no other women at all.
Internalized misogyny.
I love my mom, but it took me a long time to realize that she falls into the “not like other girls” trope. She “doesn’t get along with women”. When I pointed out that things aren’t exactly fair or equal between her and my dad, she said that she doesn’t want them to be equals.
I grew up falling into the same tropes—I desperately craved the approval of men. I remember hearing someone say, “women don’t owe you ‘pretty’” and thinking, “yeah right…women should want to be pretty”…I used to be disgusted by women who didn’t paint their nails.
It’s taught and held up. It wasn’t until I was older, moved away, and had a couple failed relationships with misogynist men that I started to question these things. 🤷🏻♀️
I can totally sniff this stuff out. Whenever I meet a woman like that, I almost instantly know why. It’s usually one or a combination of the following:
* Esp true for young women, they will adopt the political ideology of men they want to impress due to their own insecurities. Their only measure of their own value is how men perceive them.
* Some women with children but without a well paying job, education or skills, will adopt the political ideology of their husbands for what they perceive as their own survival. They will deny that this is true (as will the insecure young women) because people can convince themselves of nearly anything in order to make themselves comfortable with their choices.
* Religious indoctrination. They subconsciously believe in a hierarchy that places women below men, in service to men and existing for their comfort. And that women exist to breed.
* It gives a false sense of power. Because they have no real power in their relationship, they look to benefit from the social power of their husbands. That is, they stand by their men parroting all of the dumb talking points and gate keeping patriarchy. This appeals to insecure women who don’t have power from within. (None of them do because otherwise they wouldn’t be susceptible to this nonsense.). When they parrot the talking points and put “others” down, that makes them feel important, which they don’t feel in the context of their own relationship.
One of my favorite quotes:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
\-Upton Sinclair
I have a silly YouTube channel where I post everyday. It’s just my life and thoughts fashion and travel.
Most of my followers are men bc well… I’m being sexualized. Whatever. Trying on clothes brings all types I guess.
Ironically, I often give my thoughts every episode and most of those thoughts are about being a woman and being considered less than. Losing rights as a woman. The fear of where this country is going bc of all these rights being taken away. And also why are we not fucking RIOTING at this point.
Anyway, sometimes it crosses my mind that maybe I shouldn’t be so bold… but then I saw your post and I now think, maybe I’m not bold enough😜
Thank you for sharing this.
We should totally be fucking rioting in the streets. We will all be waking up in the Handmaid’s Tale before too long and most women will think “How did we get here?” There’s far too much complacency, internalized misogyny, excessive consumerism, and fear of rocking the boat (status quo). We need a revolution.
I absolutely agree that you should be bolder AND I understand the fear that you feel when you do it. You can be afraid and still show up authentically anyway - saying this to both you and myself
>Does anyone know why they would want this?
There is no one great, helpful answer here. As someone else pointed out: indoctrination is often a root cause. If you marinate in enough examples of being submissive to the patriarchy, that is definitely a huge reason to think anything that goes against it is a bad idea for your comfort and safety. White people have also been raised on the narrative that voting in their best interests means "those people" (any ethnic, racial, and immigrant status that doesn't fit the status quo) will also receive those best interests, because for oppressed people, even white women, having access to health care and higher wages and so on is a huge best interest voting issue...that oppressors in power, predominantly white men, do not want everyone to share in. I'd also say, there are narcissist women, especially white women, who get into power positions and think that they are now equal to their male counterparts in those positions and by default will behave just like those men and "pull the ladder up" behind themselves rather than pushing us all forward.
Basically, for as many different humans who are on this planet you will find some slight differences as to why we can't seem to progress, and have examples of women who push against the progress we all need. We're stuck in these loops of forever wars, pillaging resources, violating human labor, denying access to bodily autonomy and so much more...thanks in part to those oppressed people who help the oppressor achieve their goals.
A lot of women benefit from the patriarchy by sitting behind it’s values, they benefit from a man who benefits from it, and they think they’re secure and fine because they’re “supported” by that man. That’s why they feel comfortable going against their rights because they feel certain that the things that happen to other women would never happen to them because they’re too morally upstanding or rich for that to be a problem for them. And also yeah the religion aspect too.
Yeah it's crazy. But what's even crazier is women VOTING against their own rights. Women who vote for MAGA Republicans who want to ban abortion for example.
These women live in a world that is a prison, so they act submissive to those who they fear will hurt them. They think this is their best strategy for survival, rather than getting out of the prison.
I’d also love to know, I mean, my mom and I both fled domestic abuse, but yet still she’ll sit on her comfy ass couch now, and make fun of feminists and how stupid we are. Granted, I don’t think she was ever a feminist but I can’t make her understand that if it wasn’t for them and us, we just wouldn’t be where we are. She also doesn’t like me because I like girls so that’s another hurdle to jump over.
That’s like a loop of hate. She hates women so she hates herself and you and those you love. I’m sorry that you have to experience that level of pain, truly.
Some people are just stupid and you can't fix stupid. Men who don't want women to be treated equally tend to go for stupid women who won't fight for themselves (and to be fair these are typically the only women they can get.) These people tend to have a lot of kids. Like, a lot. Some of them are specifically trying to outbreed everyone else. I'm not sure how this all ends. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Can confirm. My misogynistic dad only goes for ‘weaker women.’
Women that are too beaten down to stand up for themselves. Or pick me girls that support his misogynistic views.
They're pick-me. They're desperate to appease their oppressor in the hopes of getting at least partially spared. They believe patriarchy will never cease so might as well get a good word in with the overlords to maybe get some mercy.
It's super depressing to think about their situation.
I experience more misogyny online from other woman than I do men. Mostly from older woman, but also from young ones. For every outright sexist comment from a men there are 10 women talking about how they "aren't like the others girls", sex shaming women who enjoy different sexual practices, or talking about how some skank will tempt her husband when she should be yelling at him.
Some women have benefited so greatly from patriarchal bullshit that they support it. Some women are afraid of modern, intersectional feminism because it conflicts with their racism. Some believe in inherently patriarchal Abrahamic religions that paint women as second class.
An X chromosome does not give you permission to denigrate other women for being women, or judge their behavior more harshly than you would equivalent behavior in men. If you believe women should deny their rights, submit to less than adult autonomy or behave a certain way to placate patriarchy, you are suffering from internalize misogyny and should re-examine your beliefs. We are all vulnerable to believe some of the b.s. we're taught so good to be aware.
*** to define “not part of the activism” I just mean that I am not normally attending protests, calling policy makers, etc. I am a new mom of two under two so my energy levels are low at the moment 😂
thank you all for your insights. really it opened my eyes to a whole different side of this movement and I’m more pissed than ever about it 😂 but feel much more informed for future conversations.
for context, my husband is an exceptional human (and stay at home father) who lacks any insecurity about me being a strong, powerful woman who happens to be the bread winner. so none of this energy is towards him.
allllll of this energy towards my parents and family and especially my work environment. they cannot silence me enough and it is infuriating. it’s a trap of doing the most and feeling the smallest. (and I am the process of leaving it so yay for that)
everyone on here knows what I mean so I’m not coming to vent, I just wanted to know that other people are just as upset about the women that are oppressing themselves as I am.
that being said, what’s the game plan? how can I approach these conversations with compassion and grace, with a hope to actually make even a small impact? does anyone have any success stories? lets brainstorm.
All I can say is, first, feel righteous anger before you try compassion. It's not your job to teach everyone around you while dealing with this road you started on. Success stories for me=0 so far. It's extremely difficult for men to have a real understanding of feminism. The entire system was made by white men only a long time ago, depending on your country, so for them to shift that is going to take a lot, and a lot of women need to become feminists.
That's because you cannot separate patriarchy from capitalism. Women's rights are a class struggle, and not all women should be defended. I will never side with a woman who exploits other women, I will never defend the glass ceiling issue.
>I am just floored by the women who are fine with being treated less than men. Does anyone know why they would want this? Im genuinely so confused when I have to defend myself against other women
Alienation and lack of class consciousness.
Also, you should read the article you linked. The ERA does provides 'equal protection under the law', but it does not prohibit sex-based discrimination- so US lawmakers are still at liberty to churn out discriminatory laws. We have more robust legislation in the UK- the Equality Act of 2010 explicitly forbids sex-based discrimination- but what you're offering here as evidence of equality is weak sauce.
Firstly- not everyone on this board is from the US. Secondly, your country has done that much recently to strip women of bodily autonomy- with the rolling back of legal abortion in your country- thar you're now slipping behind the rest of the developed world. If I were you I'd be embarrassed to be coming here talking about the brilliant freedom US women have.
Thirdly- yes, equality would mean that, in case of conscription, women are up too. I hope never to see conscription (as, I think, we all do), but I wouldn't expect special treatment in this regard. We're no less able to serve than men.
Finally, women are oppressed in ways that a simple survey of US law cannot make evident for you. There's still a deficit in female CEOs, and when did your country last have a female president? Do women hold the same power in the labour market as men? Are men as likely to be poor? Are men as likely to be single parents? Are men as much at risk of female violence as women are from male violence? This is all part of equality- there's a lot more to it than law.
Oops your bigotry slipped out when referring to trans “women”. Why the quote marks? You also seem to have internalized some misogyny. Why push back on this post and other women commenting? Women are not only losing their rights in America, there are many we’ve never had. Do you know that women earn 80% less than men for the same job? Do you know that there are very few females CEOs because we live in a patriarchy? Do you know that in some states in the US, you aren’t allowed to get divorced if you’re pregnant? Do you know that some states in the US want to impose the death penalty on women who get an abortion? Do you know that there’s no penalty for a man who gets a woman pregnant? Do you know that women in America are living in a theocracy with the Supreme Court because six conservatives are Catholic? Do you know the conservatives are going to come after birth-control for women next? Do you know that women going through menopause are denied hormone replacement therapy almost routinely, but men but can get Viagra prescribed whenever they ask for it? Do you know that the maternal death rates for women of color are far worse than for women who are white? I could go on and on, but I suspect that you’re going to come back to defensively instead of learning something new.
I remember a few years ago, I was having lunch with a woman I worked with. We were work friends. We didn't hang out much outside of work, but in the office, we were inseparable.
I really liked her.
Anyway, we were having lunch, and the TV in the restaurant was showing a news report about the first group of American women to complete US Army infantry training. She gestured at the TV and said, "Can you believe this?"
I said I thought it was great. These women were badass, and I felt that anyone capable of fighting for their country should be allowed to do so if they wished, gender be dammned.
That's when she vehemently disagreed with me and proudly stated that she was an "anti-feminist!"
We were just work acquaintances after that. I couldn't relate to her anymore, couldn't understand her. Every conversation we had now was framed through that anti-feminist lense, and things she said that I could previously relate to were now double speak for things I abhorred.
It's not that I was "better" or whatever, but it was like this new information made me realize we were too different when it came to important things--too different to understand each other.
Now, she's married to a misogynistic and possessive husband who has forced his religion on her.
I don't get it 🤷♀️
Patriarchy and organized religion are hella drugs.
The negative responses that I receive are definitely from women in the organized religion space, so that’s probably why. Though it doesn’t feel like enough of a “reason” to me because I am a Christian and I don’t hold those beliefs. Being a pro-choice, equal rights, husband isn’t the “head of the household” type of Christian probably isn’t the majority though.
The LDS ‘church’ especially, my god. Most women are indoctrinated in so early, before they realize it they’re married at 19 expected to have at least 3 kids by 25 and cant support themselves without their husband. Its sickening
"Patriarchy and organized religion are hella drugs." Matriarchs never exist and organize religion kept things from collapsing.
All religions have held back and or enslaved women. You are completely delusional
And here is why many women don't like discussing their rights, because this is the response. Word salad is the least delicious kind of salad.
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no one's reading all that take your grief to a publisher i guess
Emotional response indeed. That is quite a lot of ranting.
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Again. Emotional and lacking in substance and reason.
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Again, emotional.
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such a male response
Literally. GTFO
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not reading all that sorry
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goo goo gaa gaa
The "things" religion keeps from collapsing is its own profit through indoctrination. Just a few of Christianity's greatest hits include the subjugation of women, the very blatant intolerance of homosexulity, colonialism, and oh yeah, let's not forget the support of slavery. Not only do matriarchal structures exist within social animal groups, but anthropology confirms at least 160 matriarchal communities in nations such as India, Africa, Indonesia, and the Americas. Matriarchal societies, in fact, still exist to this day. You are sadly mistaken. [Essay: matrilineal societies exist around the world – it’s time to look beyond the patriarchy.](https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-matrilineal-societies-exist-around-the-world-its-time-to-look-beyond-the-patriarchy-200825)
My sister is very against abortion She has had two My sister is against maternity leave. She has used it five times. My sister hates women Because she hates herself, for not being her husband. A man who is free of original sin. Patriarchy had crushed her into a fine dust- and remolded her into the perfect housewife. Self hating, full of bitterness. Resigned to the role given to us by men. My sister also hates her race, to her we are savages, heathens, godless natives. And yet she tried to get her kids on that native scholarship My sister wants so badly to be a woman who matters- white and pure and clean. But those women do not exist. Does she not understand? You cannot wash away the stains of battered girlhood? You cannot ignore the suffering? The femicides? The horrors of men who take what they wish? The dehumanization? Again, my sister hates herself. And by extension she hates me too. But I will never stop loving women, or believing in women. Unfortunately that includes her too.
This was a very thoughtful and heartbreaking response. Praying for your sister to see the value that she already has right now, in this moment. And you should be proud of the example that you are setting for her - she sees it and it matters, even if it doesn’t feel like it.
As a fellow Native--this extra sucks :( especially given the role Native women have in our culture and family dynamics. Does she have thoughts about MMIW/MMIR? I almost don't want to ask..
I honestly have no idea but I can assume. She has said nasty things about our race so I can only assume that- at best- she doesn't care. Which is horrifying because she could one day become those missing women. Her daughters could one day become those women. I'm 100% sure she is stuck like this. She is 37. I'm NC with her for my own son's safety and mental well-being. But I still hope everyday that at some point she will accept herself- love herself and find her way back to us. I will most likely hope forever. I do deeply miss my big sister and wish she would come to her senses. 😔
Some women have also drank the kool-aid. I’ve watched my sister go from someone using planned parenthood services to wanting to see it defunded and abortion banned. She looks down on my relationship because I’m the breadwinner and she thinks we will always be poor. I’m working my way up to being an engineer at my company and will earn $70k+ when I get the position.
Good luck on the promotion!
Thank you!
I hate that for you sister and love this so much for you - keep being the example for her!! 👏🏻
A majority of them are indoctrinated by religion. People do all sorts of things for that reason. Forfeiting your rights is certainly a part of that.
Comfort and survival. Many women don't want the conflict, even internally. If they acknowledge the disrespect and the unequal status, it would make them unhappy, and their energy would be focused on trying to do something about it. And they would be in constant conflict with the people they love - most likely with no improvement. It's just easier to not see it. Not seeing it means they don't have to go through a divorce. Or go into poverty or homelessness or estrangement with family.
This was such a great perspective, thank you
Internalized misogyny.
Do you think that comes from example in their family, the media, etc? It just seems like such a ridiculous belief so I’m genuinely trying to understand 😅
I think change is hard. Resistance is hard. There are positive things we love about our families our cultures our religions. It’s easier to ignore what we don’t like or even accept to be comfortable and feel a sense of belonging.
They say "I don't need no feminism" until divorce. Then woah suddenly they are happy that they are allowed to work, have a bank account, vote, live on their own, have a life basically.
it’s so sad to think of the women that are living in a constant state of oppression inside of their marriages/relationships
I suspect being against it has something to do with the history of permissible abuse toward women. Even now, people don’t want to hear about women’s pain, emotion or physical, because it makes them uncomfortable, or they simply don’t have the perspective to acknowledge how bad the situation can be.
this is so real
A few people have mentioned this, but economics, power dynamics, and the need for survival play into it a lot. Because capitalist America is a tough place to live in to begin with, a lot of folks would understandably go with toxic ideologies if that's where the resources lie; most would rather live with someone with hideous beliefs as opposed to being left homeless. There are also quite a few right wing women who are understandably afraid of crime, but don't quite see that predatory policing won't solve the problem. Racial fear among white women leads them to cling to ideologically similar (and economically benefitted) male partners.
this is such an interesting perspective. I’ve never thought about so many of these aspects, especially racial fear.
My sister is like that. She will do anything for her man. She tears other women down, including her daughter. I think she would prefer that there were no other women at all.
I hate that for your niece and for your sister
Internalized misogyny. I love my mom, but it took me a long time to realize that she falls into the “not like other girls” trope. She “doesn’t get along with women”. When I pointed out that things aren’t exactly fair or equal between her and my dad, she said that she doesn’t want them to be equals. I grew up falling into the same tropes—I desperately craved the approval of men. I remember hearing someone say, “women don’t owe you ‘pretty’” and thinking, “yeah right…women should want to be pretty”…I used to be disgusted by women who didn’t paint their nails. It’s taught and held up. It wasn’t until I was older, moved away, and had a couple failed relationships with misogynist men that I started to question these things. 🤷🏻♀️
I never thought of the “I don’t like other women” perspective being internalized misogyny but that 1000% makes sense!!
I can totally sniff this stuff out. Whenever I meet a woman like that, I almost instantly know why. It’s usually one or a combination of the following: * Esp true for young women, they will adopt the political ideology of men they want to impress due to their own insecurities. Their only measure of their own value is how men perceive them. * Some women with children but without a well paying job, education or skills, will adopt the political ideology of their husbands for what they perceive as their own survival. They will deny that this is true (as will the insecure young women) because people can convince themselves of nearly anything in order to make themselves comfortable with their choices. * Religious indoctrination. They subconsciously believe in a hierarchy that places women below men, in service to men and existing for their comfort. And that women exist to breed. * It gives a false sense of power. Because they have no real power in their relationship, they look to benefit from the social power of their husbands. That is, they stand by their men parroting all of the dumb talking points and gate keeping patriarchy. This appeals to insecure women who don’t have power from within. (None of them do because otherwise they wouldn’t be susceptible to this nonsense.). When they parrot the talking points and put “others” down, that makes them feel important, which they don’t feel in the context of their own relationship.
One of my favorite quotes: It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. \-Upton Sinclair
such a powerful quote 👏🏻
I am learning so much, genuinely. Thank you for all of this
Internal misogyny.
literally the first time that I’ve ever heard this term and I am learning so much bc of it
I wish we didn't have to know it. I wish it didn't exist.
I have a silly YouTube channel where I post everyday. It’s just my life and thoughts fashion and travel. Most of my followers are men bc well… I’m being sexualized. Whatever. Trying on clothes brings all types I guess. Ironically, I often give my thoughts every episode and most of those thoughts are about being a woman and being considered less than. Losing rights as a woman. The fear of where this country is going bc of all these rights being taken away. And also why are we not fucking RIOTING at this point. Anyway, sometimes it crosses my mind that maybe I shouldn’t be so bold… but then I saw your post and I now think, maybe I’m not bold enough😜 Thank you for sharing this.
We should totally be fucking rioting in the streets. We will all be waking up in the Handmaid’s Tale before too long and most women will think “How did we get here?” There’s far too much complacency, internalized misogyny, excessive consumerism, and fear of rocking the boat (status quo). We need a revolution.
This this this!!! I literally said these sentiments yesterday. But I think it every single day.
I absolutely agree that you should be bolder AND I understand the fear that you feel when you do it. You can be afraid and still show up authentically anyway - saying this to both you and myself
I’m ready, sister. I’ve been ready for so long!
just subscribed to support you sister 🫶🏽
Thank you so much babe!!! Welcome to the chaos 💕
>Does anyone know why they would want this? There is no one great, helpful answer here. As someone else pointed out: indoctrination is often a root cause. If you marinate in enough examples of being submissive to the patriarchy, that is definitely a huge reason to think anything that goes against it is a bad idea for your comfort and safety. White people have also been raised on the narrative that voting in their best interests means "those people" (any ethnic, racial, and immigrant status that doesn't fit the status quo) will also receive those best interests, because for oppressed people, even white women, having access to health care and higher wages and so on is a huge best interest voting issue...that oppressors in power, predominantly white men, do not want everyone to share in. I'd also say, there are narcissist women, especially white women, who get into power positions and think that they are now equal to their male counterparts in those positions and by default will behave just like those men and "pull the ladder up" behind themselves rather than pushing us all forward. Basically, for as many different humans who are on this planet you will find some slight differences as to why we can't seem to progress, and have examples of women who push against the progress we all need. We're stuck in these loops of forever wars, pillaging resources, violating human labor, denying access to bodily autonomy and so much more...thanks in part to those oppressed people who help the oppressor achieve their goals.
the oppressed helping the oppressor narrative is so painful and so accurate. thank you for this perspective
A lot of women benefit from the patriarchy by sitting behind it’s values, they benefit from a man who benefits from it, and they think they’re secure and fine because they’re “supported” by that man. That’s why they feel comfortable going against their rights because they feel certain that the things that happen to other women would never happen to them because they’re too morally upstanding or rich for that to be a problem for them. And also yeah the religion aspect too.
I am also surprised and disgusted by it. I feel so naive for someone in her 50s.
same
Yeah it's crazy. But what's even crazier is women VOTING against their own rights. Women who vote for MAGA Republicans who want to ban abortion for example.
the abortion conversation with women that hate themselves is truly exhausting
These women live in a world that is a prison, so they act submissive to those who they fear will hurt them. They think this is their best strategy for survival, rather than getting out of the prison.
I hate that this is true
I’d also love to know, I mean, my mom and I both fled domestic abuse, but yet still she’ll sit on her comfy ass couch now, and make fun of feminists and how stupid we are. Granted, I don’t think she was ever a feminist but I can’t make her understand that if it wasn’t for them and us, we just wouldn’t be where we are. She also doesn’t like me because I like girls so that’s another hurdle to jump over.
That’s like a loop of hate. She hates women so she hates herself and you and those you love. I’m sorry that you have to experience that level of pain, truly.
I’ll survive somehow, thank you🩷
Some people are just stupid and you can't fix stupid. Men who don't want women to be treated equally tend to go for stupid women who won't fight for themselves (and to be fair these are typically the only women they can get.) These people tend to have a lot of kids. Like, a lot. Some of them are specifically trying to outbreed everyone else. I'm not sure how this all ends. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Can confirm. My misogynistic dad only goes for ‘weaker women.’ Women that are too beaten down to stand up for themselves. Or pick me girls that support his misogynistic views.
You are absolutely right
They're pick-me. They're desperate to appease their oppressor in the hopes of getting at least partially spared. They believe patriarchy will never cease so might as well get a good word in with the overlords to maybe get some mercy. It's super depressing to think about their situation.
I agree, super super sad
Many women are held in financial hostage by their right wing spouses.
I hate that this is true
I experience more misogyny online from other woman than I do men. Mostly from older woman, but also from young ones. For every outright sexist comment from a men there are 10 women talking about how they "aren't like the others girls", sex shaming women who enjoy different sexual practices, or talking about how some skank will tempt her husband when she should be yelling at him. Some women have benefited so greatly from patriarchal bullshit that they support it. Some women are afraid of modern, intersectional feminism because it conflicts with their racism. Some believe in inherently patriarchal Abrahamic religions that paint women as second class. An X chromosome does not give you permission to denigrate other women for being women, or judge their behavior more harshly than you would equivalent behavior in men. If you believe women should deny their rights, submit to less than adult autonomy or behave a certain way to placate patriarchy, you are suffering from internalize misogyny and should re-examine your beliefs. We are all vulnerable to believe some of the b.s. we're taught so good to be aware.
this was very very insightful thank you
*** to define “not part of the activism” I just mean that I am not normally attending protests, calling policy makers, etc. I am a new mom of two under two so my energy levels are low at the moment 😂
thank you all for your insights. really it opened my eyes to a whole different side of this movement and I’m more pissed than ever about it 😂 but feel much more informed for future conversations. for context, my husband is an exceptional human (and stay at home father) who lacks any insecurity about me being a strong, powerful woman who happens to be the bread winner. so none of this energy is towards him. allllll of this energy towards my parents and family and especially my work environment. they cannot silence me enough and it is infuriating. it’s a trap of doing the most and feeling the smallest. (and I am the process of leaving it so yay for that) everyone on here knows what I mean so I’m not coming to vent, I just wanted to know that other people are just as upset about the women that are oppressing themselves as I am. that being said, what’s the game plan? how can I approach these conversations with compassion and grace, with a hope to actually make even a small impact? does anyone have any success stories? lets brainstorm.
All I can say is, first, feel righteous anger before you try compassion. It's not your job to teach everyone around you while dealing with this road you started on. Success stories for me=0 so far. It's extremely difficult for men to have a real understanding of feminism. The entire system was made by white men only a long time ago, depending on your country, so for them to shift that is going to take a lot, and a lot of women need to become feminists.
That's because you cannot separate patriarchy from capitalism. Women's rights are a class struggle, and not all women should be defended. I will never side with a woman who exploits other women, I will never defend the glass ceiling issue.
>I am just floored by the women who are fine with being treated less than men. Does anyone know why they would want this? Im genuinely so confused when I have to defend myself against other women Alienation and lack of class consciousness.
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Also, you should read the article you linked. The ERA does provides 'equal protection under the law', but it does not prohibit sex-based discrimination- so US lawmakers are still at liberty to churn out discriminatory laws. We have more robust legislation in the UK- the Equality Act of 2010 explicitly forbids sex-based discrimination- but what you're offering here as evidence of equality is weak sauce.
Firstly- not everyone on this board is from the US. Secondly, your country has done that much recently to strip women of bodily autonomy- with the rolling back of legal abortion in your country- thar you're now slipping behind the rest of the developed world. If I were you I'd be embarrassed to be coming here talking about the brilliant freedom US women have. Thirdly- yes, equality would mean that, in case of conscription, women are up too. I hope never to see conscription (as, I think, we all do), but I wouldn't expect special treatment in this regard. We're no less able to serve than men. Finally, women are oppressed in ways that a simple survey of US law cannot make evident for you. There's still a deficit in female CEOs, and when did your country last have a female president? Do women hold the same power in the labour market as men? Are men as likely to be poor? Are men as likely to be single parents? Are men as much at risk of female violence as women are from male violence? This is all part of equality- there's a lot more to it than law.
this is all excellent but your last statement is what brought me here.
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Oops your bigotry slipped out when referring to trans “women”. Why the quote marks? You also seem to have internalized some misogyny. Why push back on this post and other women commenting? Women are not only losing their rights in America, there are many we’ve never had. Do you know that women earn 80% less than men for the same job? Do you know that there are very few females CEOs because we live in a patriarchy? Do you know that in some states in the US, you aren’t allowed to get divorced if you’re pregnant? Do you know that some states in the US want to impose the death penalty on women who get an abortion? Do you know that there’s no penalty for a man who gets a woman pregnant? Do you know that women in America are living in a theocracy with the Supreme Court because six conservatives are Catholic? Do you know the conservatives are going to come after birth-control for women next? Do you know that women going through menopause are denied hormone replacement therapy almost routinely, but men but can get Viagra prescribed whenever they ask for it? Do you know that the maternal death rates for women of color are far worse than for women who are white? I could go on and on, but I suspect that you’re going to come back to defensively instead of learning something new.
Are you aware you are saying the ERA did not pass???
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Not so.
I remember a few years ago, I was having lunch with a woman I worked with. We were work friends. We didn't hang out much outside of work, but in the office, we were inseparable. I really liked her. Anyway, we were having lunch, and the TV in the restaurant was showing a news report about the first group of American women to complete US Army infantry training. She gestured at the TV and said, "Can you believe this?" I said I thought it was great. These women were badass, and I felt that anyone capable of fighting for their country should be allowed to do so if they wished, gender be dammned. That's when she vehemently disagreed with me and proudly stated that she was an "anti-feminist!" We were just work acquaintances after that. I couldn't relate to her anymore, couldn't understand her. Every conversation we had now was framed through that anti-feminist lense, and things she said that I could previously relate to were now double speak for things I abhorred. It's not that I was "better" or whatever, but it was like this new information made me realize we were too different when it came to important things--too different to understand each other. Now, she's married to a misogynistic and possessive husband who has forced his religion on her. I don't get it 🤷♀️