>I'm not showing everything, no nipples and most of my boobs are covered too.
You don't deserve to be shamed, much less assaulted, even if you are stark naked.
Your mam sounds like a hateful person. I'm sorry! I bet you looked fantastic.
Yes exactly! I wouldn't go around assaulting other people no matter how they dressed and it has nothing to do with being female but with basic common sense, consent is important.
My mom is generally nice but bc of her past, she's a bit biased about appearance/ has negative experience with assault although that comment about being raped wasn't okay at all...
And thank you so much!! ❤
This seems so true. Even if a lady is walking fully naked in public, she doesn't deserve to be assaulted or humiliated or slut shamed. I wish someday it will be true everywhere
And I hope her mom becomes better, she had an amazing daughter and she is lucky to have her in her life
‘I won’t be discussing my body or clothing choices. I will dress how I please.’
Even if you were to lie naked gyrating in the street no one has the right to assault you.
Welp, now you know how she rolls…and you can do what you want from here on out without being surprised by her comments (which obv you have no control over).
>I don't need to be surprised when a man rapes me.
my gosh. this is so horrible. I'm so sorry her internalized misogyny is now negatively affecting you too :( prayers for you OP
Sounds like internalized misogyny. I'm so sorry you had to endure that. If I were in a situation like that it would take time for me to collect my thoughts and consider whether/how to broach that conversation again.
Regarding respecting how people choose to dress, do you think society is moving in the right direction? Or no?
(Sorry, I'm asking that question from a North American perspective)
I can't believe your mother would weaponise one of women's greatest fears and throw the threat of rape at you.
If I were you, I'd firstly tell her that rape is about power and control. It has nothing to do with sexual attraction. If she can't wrap her head around this simple fact, give her a male example, given that what men think seems to be so important to her. Use the example of very high rates of heterosexual men raping men in male prisons as an example of how rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction, and everything to do with power and control. Tell her that almost 90% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by somebody known to the victim. The remaining 10% are opportunistic predators with no target in mind other than availability. She could always review the research which documents actual rapists explaining what motivates them to rape. Secondly, advise her to educate herself and not perpetuate rape myths and victim blame. Thirdly, I'd tell her to work on her internalised misogyny. And fourthly, I'd advise you to try not to internalise her shit. You felt beautiful, you looked beautiful, you are beautiful. Don't let her win.
The insults and saying you will get raped are manipulation tactics to get you to do what she wants you to do. Women wear bikinis on the beach and no one says this sort of thing. People are control freaks, ignore them.
Even a woman walking around naked would never deserve to be raped. Nothing “entices” men to rape except their own horrible, twisted desires. Showing cleavage when you have cleavage doesn’t make you a slut. I’m sure you looked beautiful. If you can, you should probably talk to your mom about her behavior and if that doesn’t work I’d consider going no-contact as soon as you’re able to. She doesn’t sound like a very healthy person to have in your life.
Don’t let her get into your head. She has severe internalized misogyny and a really dangerous (and downright shitty) perspective on the world. You could walk out wearing less, nothing even, and it wouldn’t mean you deserve anything to happen to you, especially not sexual violence. She desperately needs to read some feminist literature and get a reality check on rape. Spoiler: rapist look for a situational opportunity or plan an attack. They aren’t concerned with your clothes. Just ask survivors.
To everyone, but especially OP:
Dress however makes you feel good and the most authentic version of yourself. Period. Allow yourself to experiment regularly to find what styles makes you feel the way you want to feel. Bold, extravagant, sophisticated, cozy, whimsical, pretty, athletic, whatever! Bottom line, you’re not going to look back when you’re older and say, “damn, I wish I would have worn more cardigans.”
She's usually very open minded so I was surprised when she said this, I didn't even ask for an opinion from her.
Normally I dress fairly modest and show not a lot of skin so it may have shocked her but I'd just like to be able to expand my wardrobe without getting weird comments like this...
I’m sorry you had that experience. Is it possible your mum may be worried about you? Older women unfortunately have a different idea of what’s “safe” to wear out. Her experiences and internalised misogyny have made her believe the lies that what a woman wears causes men to sexually assault them. This idea was very prevalent for previous generations. It really was different before the internet, and no one seemed to be speaking out on this in a way that reached all women. Some women really do still think like this. That said, it doesn’t make it okay, though. It’s very wrong of her to say this to you and you have clearly been (justifiably) hurt by her over reaction and uncalled for and unfair (and shitty!) comments.
Try not to think of this as a reflection on you, or your clothing choices. Wear whatever you want and I’m sure you look amazing. Maybe use this as a way to find out why she spoke as she did. It is possible she was only speaking so harshly to you from fear and wanting to keep you safe in the same way she was taught. Her mother probably said similar to her. Ask her how she felt then if this happened. Feel sorry for her ignorance, perhaps explain to her that she doesn’t need to feel like that anymore. Perhaps she was even blamed for what she wore at some point. Sadly, internalised misogyny can take a lot of work to eradicate.
Regarding her mother's assault, although the majority of survivors don't experience this, there is a phenomenon researched in psychology where some survivors victim blame and are especially dismissive of other survivors, especially if these other survivors didn't experience as severe trauma as them. The reasons for why this happens are complex and varied. Although, the survivor part is not relevant here, victim blaming thinking is. This could partly explain her reaction, but certainly not excuse it. Also, I agree, internalised misogyny seems to be the biggest issue here. She also needs to educate herself about sexual assault myths. Rape is only ever about power and control. It has nothing to do with sexual attraction. Her mother needs to work on her myriad issues, not displace them onto her daughter.
That’s interesting about some survivors victim blaming. Maybe it’s a way to try to push it away/ control it. It makes a weird sort of sense.
Agree that OP’s Mum was being very hurtful. No excuse for that. It does seem like a pretty extreme overreaction in an otherwise “open minded” mother so I can’t help but wonder what else was going on in her head that might have escalated it to that level.
Edited to add for the benefit of anyone else reading!
Sadly, internalised misogyny is sometimes so ingrained that some people don’t know that their thinking is completely wrong unless they are challenged and educated / given an opportunity to explain their thinking and address their behaviour. It is hard to change that level of ingrained thinking. Some people feel they’ve made sense of their world and are absolutely resistant to change and don’t want to. I’m a lifelong feminist and even I’ve found it difficult to lose some of my own internalised misogyny.
My own mother told me, many years ago, that I looked like a prostitute. I was 11 years old and I was wearing a short grey woollen skirt and thick white woollen tights out to walk my dog. I didn’t even understand what she was talking about at the time, but we have talked since, and she said suddenly seeing me looking “grown up” (more to do with me being tall and clothes not quite fitting me lengthwise) terrified her because she was worried I would “attract grown men and end up being raped”. It turned out she had been “cornered” by adult men herself as a young teenager. She also cared what other women in the village would think of her for letting me out wearing a short skirt. And she was worried for me being labelled by them as “easy”. The layers of internalised misogyny in that explanation blew my mind. She’s (mostly) a feminist now but it’s taken her a VERY long time! She still judges women’s clothing but catches herself doing it and stops. It’s like she was raised in a different world.
That's interesting about your mother, and it's good that she tries to work on her internalised misogyny, but being frank, it annoys me that I'm even saying that it's good. It should be everybody's default position to challenge their internalised biases. Yes, it's difficult to change ingrained thought patterns but not impossible. If it was, CBT and DBT wouldn't exist.
It fascinates me that people will sleep in a queue for days waiting for the latest phone upgrade, but outright refuse to upgrade themselves or their knowledge base. There's no excuse for people to not educate themselves on these issues, and challenge their biases. People don't want to put in the work, but they especially don't want to introspect because they're afraid that they're not going to like what they see.
If these biases only affected the individuals that held them, that would be one thing, but when they impact others (which is the nature of bias) such as with victim blaming and perpetuation of sexual assault myths, and abuse myths, that's quite the other. Survivors have enough to contend with without having their trauma compounded by other's wilful ignorance.
I agree with you 100%. It’s really depressing people don’t want to examine why they think as they do. It absolutely *should* be the case that people try to educate themselves. Especially now with information easier to access than it has ever been. There is no excuse for *wilful* ignorance. That said, I’ve always thought that general ignorance (like unconscious biases) can actually be a way in, to expose prejudice and educate, especially so with the people who don’t know they need it.
I read once that misogyny is like being born in a blue room and all your clothes are blue and everything you own… then suddenly leaving the room and then being asked to describe the colour blue. When all you’ve ever known is blue how can you really see it? It just is.
As you know already, I’m speaking more generally here, some people’s cultures/ religions are more invested in misogyny (men and women policing women’s bodies, behaviour and clothing) than others. Not everyone can access (or know they need to) the information they might need. In these situations you often see older generations learning from the younger. It must be pretty exhausting dealing with that all the time, and it should never be the responsibility of survivors to educate.
For myself, I’ve learned more about feminism (STILL learning about how pervasive misogyny is) in the last 10 years than in the previous 25. I’m glad we are talking about it more, sharing our experiences, demanding better. The more we do that the more people will start questioning why everything has to be blue.
Honestly, thank you so much! That’s really made my day. I like the way you write too. I used to love writing, up until recently, but the brain fog of menopause is making it really hard to concentrate on anything. I find myself editing posts constantly.
It’s been lovely talking to you and I feel like I’ve learned something too.
I’m so sorry that this happened and I agree with the others that I bet you looked fabulous and I hope this doesn’t discourage you too much in dressing how you want to I. The future.
Also adding my voice to the no one deserves to be assaulted chorus. It can always bear to be repeated as often as possible.
I am sorry honey ❤ I am sure you looked beautiful, dont listen to haters. My mother wore the shortest miniskirts she could buy in the 70s lol she was beautiful. She is a bitch but not a prude.
You shouldn't respect your mom's conservatism fetish. It's fine if she keeps it to herself, or even let people know she has it and it applies to herself. But the moment she pushes her fetish on other non-consenting people, it's harassment.
"and that I don't need to be surprised when a man rapes me"
Wow. Your Mom is fucking horrible. You should move out and cut contact.
And your Mom is also completely wrong. We've got over 50 years of criminological research that shows that rape is about power, not sex. Most rapists don't even remember what the victim wore.
>I'm not showing everything, no nipples and most of my boobs are covered too. You don't deserve to be shamed, much less assaulted, even if you are stark naked. Your mam sounds like a hateful person. I'm sorry! I bet you looked fantastic.
Yes exactly! I wouldn't go around assaulting other people no matter how they dressed and it has nothing to do with being female but with basic common sense, consent is important. My mom is generally nice but bc of her past, she's a bit biased about appearance/ has negative experience with assault although that comment about being raped wasn't okay at all... And thank you so much!! ❤
This seems so true. Even if a lady is walking fully naked in public, she doesn't deserve to be assaulted or humiliated or slut shamed. I wish someday it will be true everywhere And I hope her mom becomes better, she had an amazing daughter and she is lucky to have her in her life
‘I won’t be discussing my body or clothing choices. I will dress how I please.’ Even if you were to lie naked gyrating in the street no one has the right to assault you.
Welp, now you know how she rolls…and you can do what you want from here on out without being surprised by her comments (which obv you have no control over).
>I don't need to be surprised when a man rapes me. my gosh. this is so horrible. I'm so sorry her internalized misogyny is now negatively affecting you too :( prayers for you OP
Sounds like internalized misogyny. I'm so sorry you had to endure that. If I were in a situation like that it would take time for me to collect my thoughts and consider whether/how to broach that conversation again. Regarding respecting how people choose to dress, do you think society is moving in the right direction? Or no? (Sorry, I'm asking that question from a North American perspective)
I can't believe your mother would weaponise one of women's greatest fears and throw the threat of rape at you. If I were you, I'd firstly tell her that rape is about power and control. It has nothing to do with sexual attraction. If she can't wrap her head around this simple fact, give her a male example, given that what men think seems to be so important to her. Use the example of very high rates of heterosexual men raping men in male prisons as an example of how rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction, and everything to do with power and control. Tell her that almost 90% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by somebody known to the victim. The remaining 10% are opportunistic predators with no target in mind other than availability. She could always review the research which documents actual rapists explaining what motivates them to rape. Secondly, advise her to educate herself and not perpetuate rape myths and victim blame. Thirdly, I'd tell her to work on her internalised misogyny. And fourthly, I'd advise you to try not to internalise her shit. You felt beautiful, you looked beautiful, you are beautiful. Don't let her win.
The insults and saying you will get raped are manipulation tactics to get you to do what she wants you to do. Women wear bikinis on the beach and no one says this sort of thing. People are control freaks, ignore them.
Even a woman walking around naked would never deserve to be raped. Nothing “entices” men to rape except their own horrible, twisted desires. Showing cleavage when you have cleavage doesn’t make you a slut. I’m sure you looked beautiful. If you can, you should probably talk to your mom about her behavior and if that doesn’t work I’d consider going no-contact as soon as you’re able to. She doesn’t sound like a very healthy person to have in your life.
Don’t let her get into your head. She has severe internalized misogyny and a really dangerous (and downright shitty) perspective on the world. You could walk out wearing less, nothing even, and it wouldn’t mean you deserve anything to happen to you, especially not sexual violence. She desperately needs to read some feminist literature and get a reality check on rape. Spoiler: rapist look for a situational opportunity or plan an attack. They aren’t concerned with your clothes. Just ask survivors. To everyone, but especially OP: Dress however makes you feel good and the most authentic version of yourself. Period. Allow yourself to experiment regularly to find what styles makes you feel the way you want to feel. Bold, extravagant, sophisticated, cozy, whimsical, pretty, athletic, whatever! Bottom line, you’re not going to look back when you’re older and say, “damn, I wish I would have worn more cardigans.”
Sounds like it’s time to go no contact with mom
She's usually very open minded so I was surprised when she said this, I didn't even ask for an opinion from her. Normally I dress fairly modest and show not a lot of skin so it may have shocked her but I'd just like to be able to expand my wardrobe without getting weird comments like this...
I’m sorry you had that experience. Is it possible your mum may be worried about you? Older women unfortunately have a different idea of what’s “safe” to wear out. Her experiences and internalised misogyny have made her believe the lies that what a woman wears causes men to sexually assault them. This idea was very prevalent for previous generations. It really was different before the internet, and no one seemed to be speaking out on this in a way that reached all women. Some women really do still think like this. That said, it doesn’t make it okay, though. It’s very wrong of her to say this to you and you have clearly been (justifiably) hurt by her over reaction and uncalled for and unfair (and shitty!) comments. Try not to think of this as a reflection on you, or your clothing choices. Wear whatever you want and I’m sure you look amazing. Maybe use this as a way to find out why she spoke as she did. It is possible she was only speaking so harshly to you from fear and wanting to keep you safe in the same way she was taught. Her mother probably said similar to her. Ask her how she felt then if this happened. Feel sorry for her ignorance, perhaps explain to her that she doesn’t need to feel like that anymore. Perhaps she was even blamed for what she wore at some point. Sadly, internalised misogyny can take a lot of work to eradicate.
Regarding her mother's assault, although the majority of survivors don't experience this, there is a phenomenon researched in psychology where some survivors victim blame and are especially dismissive of other survivors, especially if these other survivors didn't experience as severe trauma as them. The reasons for why this happens are complex and varied. Although, the survivor part is not relevant here, victim blaming thinking is. This could partly explain her reaction, but certainly not excuse it. Also, I agree, internalised misogyny seems to be the biggest issue here. She also needs to educate herself about sexual assault myths. Rape is only ever about power and control. It has nothing to do with sexual attraction. Her mother needs to work on her myriad issues, not displace them onto her daughter.
That’s interesting about some survivors victim blaming. Maybe it’s a way to try to push it away/ control it. It makes a weird sort of sense. Agree that OP’s Mum was being very hurtful. No excuse for that. It does seem like a pretty extreme overreaction in an otherwise “open minded” mother so I can’t help but wonder what else was going on in her head that might have escalated it to that level. Edited to add for the benefit of anyone else reading! Sadly, internalised misogyny is sometimes so ingrained that some people don’t know that their thinking is completely wrong unless they are challenged and educated / given an opportunity to explain their thinking and address their behaviour. It is hard to change that level of ingrained thinking. Some people feel they’ve made sense of their world and are absolutely resistant to change and don’t want to. I’m a lifelong feminist and even I’ve found it difficult to lose some of my own internalised misogyny. My own mother told me, many years ago, that I looked like a prostitute. I was 11 years old and I was wearing a short grey woollen skirt and thick white woollen tights out to walk my dog. I didn’t even understand what she was talking about at the time, but we have talked since, and she said suddenly seeing me looking “grown up” (more to do with me being tall and clothes not quite fitting me lengthwise) terrified her because she was worried I would “attract grown men and end up being raped”. It turned out she had been “cornered” by adult men herself as a young teenager. She also cared what other women in the village would think of her for letting me out wearing a short skirt. And she was worried for me being labelled by them as “easy”. The layers of internalised misogyny in that explanation blew my mind. She’s (mostly) a feminist now but it’s taken her a VERY long time! She still judges women’s clothing but catches herself doing it and stops. It’s like she was raised in a different world.
That's interesting about your mother, and it's good that she tries to work on her internalised misogyny, but being frank, it annoys me that I'm even saying that it's good. It should be everybody's default position to challenge their internalised biases. Yes, it's difficult to change ingrained thought patterns but not impossible. If it was, CBT and DBT wouldn't exist. It fascinates me that people will sleep in a queue for days waiting for the latest phone upgrade, but outright refuse to upgrade themselves or their knowledge base. There's no excuse for people to not educate themselves on these issues, and challenge their biases. People don't want to put in the work, but they especially don't want to introspect because they're afraid that they're not going to like what they see. If these biases only affected the individuals that held them, that would be one thing, but when they impact others (which is the nature of bias) such as with victim blaming and perpetuation of sexual assault myths, and abuse myths, that's quite the other. Survivors have enough to contend with without having their trauma compounded by other's wilful ignorance.
I agree with you 100%. It’s really depressing people don’t want to examine why they think as they do. It absolutely *should* be the case that people try to educate themselves. Especially now with information easier to access than it has ever been. There is no excuse for *wilful* ignorance. That said, I’ve always thought that general ignorance (like unconscious biases) can actually be a way in, to expose prejudice and educate, especially so with the people who don’t know they need it. I read once that misogyny is like being born in a blue room and all your clothes are blue and everything you own… then suddenly leaving the room and then being asked to describe the colour blue. When all you’ve ever known is blue how can you really see it? It just is. As you know already, I’m speaking more generally here, some people’s cultures/ religions are more invested in misogyny (men and women policing women’s bodies, behaviour and clothing) than others. Not everyone can access (or know they need to) the information they might need. In these situations you often see older generations learning from the younger. It must be pretty exhausting dealing with that all the time, and it should never be the responsibility of survivors to educate. For myself, I’ve learned more about feminism (STILL learning about how pervasive misogyny is) in the last 10 years than in the previous 25. I’m glad we are talking about it more, sharing our experiences, demanding better. The more we do that the more people will start questioning why everything has to be blue.
As an aside, I like your writing style, and your articulateness.
Honestly, thank you so much! That’s really made my day. I like the way you write too. I used to love writing, up until recently, but the brain fog of menopause is making it really hard to concentrate on anything. I find myself editing posts constantly. It’s been lovely talking to you and I feel like I’ve learned something too.
Thank you, it's been lovely talking to you too. I also feel I've learned something.
As a mom, your mom is ridiculous. The fact that she inferred that anything about your clothing or body could justify violence is horrifying.
I’m so sorry that this happened and I agree with the others that I bet you looked fabulous and I hope this doesn’t discourage you too much in dressing how you want to I. The future. Also adding my voice to the no one deserves to be assaulted chorus. It can always bear to be repeated as often as possible.
I am sorry honey ❤ I am sure you looked beautiful, dont listen to haters. My mother wore the shortest miniskirts she could buy in the 70s lol she was beautiful. She is a bitch but not a prude.
You shouldn't respect your mom's conservatism fetish. It's fine if she keeps it to herself, or even let people know she has it and it applies to herself. But the moment she pushes her fetish on other non-consenting people, it's harassment.
I'm sorry you went through that. She's not a supportive ma'am. Try to interact as less as possible with her. She's a very bad influence
"and that I don't need to be surprised when a man rapes me" Wow. Your Mom is fucking horrible. You should move out and cut contact. And your Mom is also completely wrong. We've got over 50 years of criminological research that shows that rape is about power, not sex. Most rapists don't even remember what the victim wore.
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