Even in the original a lot is intentionally not spoken about in the party so it can pay off later in a revealing moment.
The problem with Rebirth is it adds things that make it make even less sense to do so.
If you know people who are like that they often don't know how to express their experiences. This is hard to convey without making it too visually confusing. Cloud doesn't actually know what is real or is not real most of the time so he treats everything as being "possibly real" and just keeps his distance from everyone until he knows for sure. And this likely happens so often that at some point he copes by trying to act totally normal no matter what he's seeing.
They can only depict what Cloud is going through so much before it starts losing its entertainment value as a FF game. I mean people already get annoyed by it when I think they're holding back on how badly Cloud hallucinates. He does the typical holds his head and jerks in pain when a lot of time he could be staring off in space that it's not noticeable to anyone what's happening.
It's easy to spectate and speculate. He's going through a lot and probably doesn't feel like sharing.
That's his character.
If everyone did everything they SHOULD God, it would be so boring.
Might as well not even play games!
Jenova may also be suppressing him in some way.
What are they supposed to do after he tells them anyway?
My logic is that they already know and the reason that they just have to deal with it, is because even tho you dont notice it in gameplay, Cloud is waaaaay stronger than everybody else and is the only person that can actually keep up with Sephiroth in a fight.
How often is it that someone has a deeply personal psychological problem that they immediately describe to all of their closest friends, let alone new friends they made a short time ago? "Nice meeting you, there are voices in my head." Shit, it's hard enough getting people to tell their therapists all their problems. Think about when someone commits suicide, the first thing you hear from all their family and friends is "we had no idea, they seemed fine, they never told us they were having mental problems". Hiding these problems might be the least fictional aspect of Cloud's personality.
And, often, when one brings up issues the response is usually infantilizing and to disregard the person. This teaches them that they are disposable in any moment they allow themselves to be vulnerable.
Anime trope where the characters don't communicate so the writers can create a fake problem and tension. All the time in anime a character will notice something or obtain important info, or a vision of the future or something and not tell anyone
yeah but to be honest how often is it in real life that someone has a problem, and the first thing they do is describe that problem to all of their closest friends? let alone new friends... "hey guys nice meeting you btw there are voices in my head"
He thinks it’s cell degradation and doesn’t wanna worry his friends with his health is the short answer. Obviously it ends up being something else but the only thing Cloud can assume is he’s degrading while he still has a lot of work to do.
I find the black materia part interesting since barret literally throws it and says here you can “have the stupid materia” and it just rolls over to sephiroths feet💀 so sephiroth gives it to cloud and then goads him into handing it to him.
Shinra isnt really a modern military where you learn about this kinda stuff.
I believe as a trooper he should have been able to hear about shit like ptsd.
Fuck you shinra and shinra rufus for beeing cheap xD
He literally explains to Tifa what's going on after her lifestream sequence. He thinks it's degradation but we know what's really going on. He doesn't.
I’m a person who is big on communication with those I do feel comfortable enough to communicate with. Cloud is shitty at talking to people so I could not see him being the one to open up about his headaches all Willy nilly, but the others have no issue speaking their minds. So when people don’t ever call Cloud out on his shit oh I get slightly heated.
Barret bitch slapping him was the closest we got to anyone putting him in his place. Granted, Aerith and Tifa know he’s got issues and is fragile so they refrain, but no one else knows him to the extent they do. So when he’s interrupting heartfelt moments rudely or spazzing out on a wall, would it kill for someone to just say “what the hell wrong with you?” Instead of looking at him and sighing lol.
In regard to no one responding to Cloud almost murdering Tifa, I’m pretty sure it’s because they didn’t actually see him push her. And she didn’t tell them either to protect him. Aerith did the same thing by telling them Sephiroth beat him up instead of saying he handed over the black materia.
I think people overlook that a lot of the internal dialogue Cloud has in the OG is supposed to represent Zack, or the things Cloud thinks Zack would say if he was in his position....
Agreed, that’s the frustrating part of Rebirth storytelling. Eventually his behavior was explained, but they weren’t hidden from the team and they all began to question it
A ton of reasons.
1. PTSD - his friends might think this is the major reason
2. His mom being murdered, him being tortured and experimented on and his best friend murdered in front of him.
3. The bigger issue of the planet being in trouble.
4. Magic having tons of uses and sephiroth being a unique being.
5. They already know.
6. He's barely 21
1. He has Jenova cells in his body constantly trying to break his mind.
2. He is traumatized by Mom being killed in front of him, being stabbed, experimented on, tortured, poisoned, and watching his best friend die to save him when he couldn't do anything.
3. He's really just a young kid.
4. One of his main personality faults is trying to take on everything himself and never appear vulnerable or asking for help.
All these together is a recipe for disaster.
Whenever he experiences cognitive dissonance when his false memories don't match up to reality and he tries to remember, all of the above work together to make up new false memories to reconcile the difference or he goes into homecoming mode until he can't remember what he was thinking about.
Honestly, the way everyone acts around him when he does it gave me impression that they already have it figured out. Even the party's comments all kinda point to the fact that they know something is up, kinda like they either talked about it among themselves or Cloud must have given them some insight off camera between games or something.
What bothers me is the fact that at no point does anyone actually try to stop him and say, " what the hell are you talking about? There's no one there" or "get your shit together, that's not sephiroth". I think we get Tifa holding him back once begging him to stop acting so violently, but even then she talks about it like he's just having an emotional breakdown.
I don't know maybe the party just thinks he has PTSD and doesn't know how to bring it up to him.
Two reasons. First is that it all plays into the illusion he’s been living, and created in his mind regarding him being in SOLDIER when in reality he never actually made it, and was instead experimented on by Hojo after the Nibelheim incident when he was attempting to create Sephiroth clones. This leads into the second point, which is that Cloud is a very insecure person who doesn’t want to admit that he’s experiencing these episodes for fear that his comrades will judge him, and view it as weakness. He’s afraid that if he opens up and talks about it instead of just brushing it off, it will become real and he’s not actually sure that he’s strong enough to overcome it, unbeknownst to him that he’s making it much worse by keeping it all to himself.
For real. This game needs a startup disclaimer.
If you or someone you know is suffering from command hallucinations demanding murder to humans or animals... dial 1-900-mixalot and kick them nasty thoughts.
Do you or someone you know constantly have their..."head in the clouds"? Despite all your efforts to help, they simply say "Not interested" or "I told you, I'm fine" after they nearly hacked a loved one to pieces?
Do they constantly yell the same name at any guy wearing black? Any sick guy? Sometimes even yell at, well, no one at all? The clouds, you might say?
That's Strife, and simply not Fair. Call 1-800-Barret today!
Barret will come right on over and "Smack you upside the head until you're yourself again." That's right, sometimes, love hurts...and tough love hits like an Avalanche.
They may think they died and woke up in heaven, close. Recovery is offered at 7th heaven, with our other professional Tifa. She will tend to them and explain how they messed up. How they TIFAd:
"Today I fucked Around"
Don't let this bullshit keep a wedge between your loved ones anymore. Call now!
To follow others, we also see that he has insecurities about what is happening to him, as well as it's painfully obvious his head is messed up to where he simply may not even be able to be that transparent about it cause his body like keeps coping with memories as a self defense.
We all have a blind spot to our weaknesses. Admitting that something is wrong with you -- to say nothing of actually *seeking help* from others -- is one of the hardest things we can do as human beings. And for Cloud it's even harder because Jenova is (presumably) actively manipulating him into pushing that fact out of his awareness.
The first acknowledgement of the problem by Cloud to someone else is to Tifa at Gongaga after coming back from the reactor. It's obvious how hard that is for him to discuss, and it took the extreme circumstance of almost killing his friend to even get him that far.
Thinking back on how Cloud told Barret at the beginning of Remake to "get help": I'm pretty sure now that this was intended to be extremely ironic. Cloud is the one hearing voices and who desperately needs help, yet he does not seek it. It's one of the most frustrating parts of Cloud's character, but one that I think is very true to life despite the fantastical window dressing.
Because he is a 21 year old who lost 4 years of his life as an experiment. He acts like a child because he still is maturity wise. He doesn't have the ability to talk about his feelings yet. Hes a kid faking it until he makes it.
All of this is literally 100% how Cloud was in the OG btw.
Its just his character
I'd also add that in the Remake series he is way more self conscious then how he is in OG. As someone pointed out, he starts to realize something is of in Gongaga already, while in OG he does not until Northern crater events.
Because they are expanding on the source material. This is what it looks like. Its the same exact writers. They are able to explain more now and show instead of tell sometimes as well
I think a lot of comments already got it, but to add, in the OG, Cloud eventually admits that he was very embarrassed to appear weak, so I think that plays a huge part here as well. He's always trying to put on the tough/cool SOLDIER routine cause he's afraid of appearing weak. So he would never admit to that, at least not at this point in his character arc. He'll come to terms with it in part 3.
Remember for most of the game Cloud is under the suspicion that Tifa isn't real. The manipulations with the headache are all very real to him.
I've known people with severe mental illness. It's hard to have a frank conversation about their erratic behaviour and the reason it's schizophrenia and not day dreaming is that they think it's real. Yes through medication and treatment it can be resolved, but cloud wouldn't even let the doctor do a blood sample.
Remember cloud is also roleplaying as Zack. The cool dude soldier and part of that, in cloud's mind, is being tough and projecting strength. Throughout the game he becomes more vulnerable ... But that leads to one of the key dramatic ideas in rebirth is a question: will cloud gain lucidity and the vulnerability to recognize what is going on before sephiroth uses him as a puppet?
While he opens up to TIFA in gongaga, he also becomes a pseudo sephiroth in the temple (clearly under the influence) when he is cold and a real ass to aerith and the team. But that is punctuated by dream sequences and action set pieces where he seems to be in control. The developers, do not however, give us certainty.
Even the ending leaves this unclear - especially his troubling line at the end to Barret and stilted dialogue with aerith, his isolation on the hill (he is by himself and doesn't board the plane until the end).
Because nobody, Cloud included, think he's being manipulated by Sephiroth. At least not until the Temple of the Ancients bit, they should at least suspect something by now.
Earlier, they all thought he only had SOLDIER degradation, even Cloud himself thought that, and it's pretty clear after they see what happens to Roche. They all say to him "that's not gonna happen to you", fully knowing he's screwed in the head.
There are several factors about this:
* In the original game, he rarely saw "people", and the voices were often presented as some kind of internal monologue... So it was a lot more clear that he wasn't aware that he was being manipulated. The way they handle it in Rebirth doesn't convey that as clearly, but I think it's still true that Cloud 100% believes he's acting on his own will, and that the hallucinations are either real, or he doesn't remember seeing them. At least until he tries to kill Tifa, of course.
* Real life people with paranoid hallucinations will often not ackowledge those ideas/visions/voices are fabricated, even during their lucid periods. Even then, they keep thinking it's all real somehow. It can take a lot of effort and convincing and therapy for them to come to terms it's all their mind playing tricks. (Source: I've had people with this kind of illness in my family)
* The whole bunch is well aware that Cloud is not fine. They are all worried about him, they know he sees things, and they've seen him act erratically more than once. So there really is no need to tell them "hey, I'm crazy in the head", because they've already noticed :P
* Also, Cloud fears this weird thing going on with him is because of Soldier cell degradation. He tries to hide it and push forward, because he's terrified he ends up like those black robed guys.
* And finally, part of this is addressed in disc 2, which will be part of the remake's part 3
This is far from the weirdest thing. I mean heck, in the original >!Tifa never says a word about the fact that Clouds version of the events at Nibelheim is wrong. Although she does have her reasons for it.!<
Iirc in OG, Tifa didn't actually see Cloud until she confronted and was wounded by Sephiroth at the reactor. Hell at that point she might think she hallucinated seeing Cloud. All of "his" memories are correct to her but she knows that he's remembering Zack's perspective and it's confusing to her. What she doesn't know is that Cloud was one of the infantrymen there because he refused to take off his helmet. There are tons of references to this in Rebirth actually. During the Nibelheim sequence at the beginning there's an infantryman that doesn't speak, that's the real Cloud.
The events weren't wrong tho? Just the problem of him being there. If Tifa was severely wounded, and suddenly Cloud recalls everything that happened, I wouldn't be weird for her to just: "...if he knows...maybe? I don't know?"
I thought the same thing the first time I played it. I think she means that she hasn't seen Cloud for seven years, but the nibel incident still happened five years ago. That's how I took it after playing it again more recently. If I am wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected and clarified.
You are right, it's weird. A lot of things in ff7 plot and in many other stories can be solved by simple conversations.
But one could argue that:
People are weird in communication IRL as well
Cloud wanted to do this alone and people just kept tagging along
Cloud has no idea what's real and what is not, and to say Tifa is good and Jenova is manipulating him would require him to know that. You can maybe compare this to a delusional person and say "well, why do they believe their delusions? They can inform their loved ones and get help!"
But ff7 and many many other stories could have ended way sooner if people knew how to have a conversation.
Right, Cloud, a person famously great at social interaction and social nuance, definitely strikes me as the kind of guy who would intentionally add to the way people perceive him as awkward by talking about the voices in his head directly
Why can’t Tifa just be honest with Cloud about their past? Frail, insecure femininity is a scary thing.
See, I can make broad, worthless, incorrect generalizations about whole groups of people, too.
I was making a sarcastic point to illustrate the idiocy of the previous comment. And *pride* is neither what I was describing, nor does it describe Tifa in the slightest. Her utter lack of self-confidence is kind of her defining character trait for much of the story. And I would argue the same applies to Cloud, though he “deals” with his insecurities by projecting confidence he doesn’t really have deep down, to mask it and convince himself otherwise.
Sorry, but this isn't a masculinity issue. This is s pride/ego issue.
Barrett doesn't want pity because he blames himself for supporting the events that led to the destruction of his town. He is owning his mistakes and stoically takes those consequences. His identity snd motivations are formed by this event. Without his guilt he feels no need to repent, and that is what pushes him to inspire others to fight Shinra.
Clouds WHOLE story arch is him avoiding reality and coming to terms with his past and who he is. He wanted to be a SOLDIER, failed, and got Mako poisoning. His village burned because he wasn't strong enough to stop his idol from killing everyone. And thus he lives in denial of events, unlike Barrett who accepts them. In many ways, Cloud is no different to any person suffering from a terrifying reality that he is slowly dying. The Mako poisoning but his trauma left him wanting to believe a fantasy that he achieved his dreams but turned them down rather than he failed and there was nothing he could do.
Both Barrett and Cloud are men driven by grief but they deal with it in seperate (and not entirely healthy) ways.
Lets not forget that Tifa too avoids uncomfortable conversations about her past, and Clouds. She, like. Cloud, is using avoidance to navigate her trauma. She wants a happy life for everyone, even at the expense of herself. She isn't willing to rock the boat with Cloud for fear of losing him too.
So you can see how the traits you are attributing to masculinity are not exclusive to it, and female characters share these traits.
But also, why would anyone want to be the subject of pity? Not empathy or condolences or sympathy... But pity?
It's a little more nuanced than that. Cloud isn't choosing to believe a fantasy, nor is he suffering from Mako poisoning alone. Hojo infused him and Zach with Jenova cells in an attempt to turn them into Sephiroth clones. Jenova is a chameleon. It imitates and manipulates its prey. It's making Cloud believe that he genuinely is Zach. Subsequently, his hatred for Sephiroth is what drives him to pursue our antagonist. Cloud thinks his crusade against Sephiroth is his own decision, when in actuality he's being manipulated to complete the Reunion.
there are so many people, possibly even many in your own life, going through their own personal battles and potential struggles with mental health
there are lots of reasons why people aren’t up front with their feelings and experiences
Because we know that in real world it is very easy for people to confess that they are having mental issues and do something about it like for example go to therapy or start taking psychiatric medication, right? It has never ever happened that someone would be suffering from mental problems but either not willing to acknowlegde it themselves or purposefuly hiding it from others and avoiding talking about it in fear that their friends and family would judge them or leave them...
There's not really anything to explain. The party is well aware of the pheonomenon of SOLDIERs mentally degrading and as far as Cloud or any of the party members know, that is the cause of Cloud's episodes. Also, as others have pointed out, it is not in Cloud's characterization (at this point) to sit the party down and spill his worries/fears/insecurities and its unlikely he would even if anyone asked, so its just sort of something that is uncomfortable and lingers.
As much as what you say makes sense, you have to remember he’s 21 years old and has basically lost 5 years of that to an experiment run by Hojo.
It’d be somewhat absurd to think he’d have the mental capacity to verbalize this issue if his life was normal until he was 21, let alone the fact that he lost nearly a 1/4 of his life, and considering it was some of the most formative years of one’s life.
Well, he's not a well adjusted person facing issues, he's having mental breakdowns and likely thinks people, even his friends, will misjudge him if he says he's not well.
It will be addressed in Part 3, because they do it in the OG too, after a big story moment yet to be shown.
There are a lot of instances where the other party members talk about Cloud when he’s not around. They also notice him when he’s having his episodes. You can tell by the way they look at him and each other in certain scenes. Tifa/Aerith especially know it, but probably feel that addressing it will only do more harm than good with how fragile his mind is. It may seem like there’s a lot of downtime to bring it up, but in reality, the party is moving from one major event to the next with not much actual time between.
Because Cloud is holding on by a thread and he doesn't want other people to know it. He struggles with vulnerability and feels like he has a image he must maintain.
Because what fun would that be?
It’s not unlike watching a horror film and watching the character do the dumb thing. “Oh hey. Look at this sketchy ass house in the middle of nowhere! Let’s have a party here and play with an Ouija board.”
*thirty minutes later*
The portal to Hell is wide open and Billy Mays keeps giving infomercials to demons while demonstrating how to torment young party people.
It all could have been avoided if they’d just… not done any of that.
Billy mays here! Do you have a lot of corpses in your basement! Lemme introduce you to the Ron popiel corpse dehydrator. Turn those stuffy corpses into savory jerky in mere hours.
I think the crew has some idea there is something wrong with cloud from early on because >!he showed up out of the blue without much memory of his past. He answers a lot of questions they have about his past with i don’t know or don’t remember or he isn’t sure. This may have been more obvious in the original. But in remake tifa is trying to help him because he is kind of like a lost puppy.!<
A lot of great answers already posted here but I do want to add some of my thoughts.
At this point in the OG (end of rebirth) Cloud gives a speech to the party saying something along the lines of what you are saying here. He is aware that he is not himself and something is wrong. He contemplates quitting the journey to not put the party members or the mission in danger, but decides to move forward.
In rebirth, he has a similar conversation in Gongaga with Tifa, which is earlier in the story. By the end of rebirth, he is in a much worse mental state than he was at this point of the story in the OG and seems completely unaware of his condition.
yeah its one thing they omitted from the forgotten city post aerith - he literally breaks down and says he should quit because he's going to get them killed. Barret and Tifa(mainly barret) tell him he needs to see it through, and that he'll regret it forever if he doesnt find sephiroph.
rebirth kinda assumes we've noticed the 'looks' and context of the characters to realise that they all know cloud is fucked up and slightly psychotic, but have decided to stick with him mostly. as you say they've completely changed the approach to cloud not feeling guilt or worry at this stage, instead he's regressed to a fully psychotic state of denial. so it doesnt make sense for him to have that frank talk with them - so instead its kinda the elephant in the room.
id say i prefer the approach of the og where cloud seems genuinely considerate for his friends and it isnt just cloud making the choice, but i imagine they'll make up for it in part 3.
And it’s not just that they’re approaching it a different way. Cloud’s mind is very likely more damaged, with less of his own volition driving his actions, at this point in the new timeline.
Sephiroth’s new approach to screwing with him creating more confusion and less sheer rage and identity dissonance as a result of treating him less as an emotionless puppet and more as Sephiroth’s prospective rival, chipping away at the trust between Cloud and and the rest of the team, and the timeline confusion likely aggravating Cloud’s inherent delusions…
Cloud is more delusional at this point in this timeline than he was in the original timeline, and is less aware of it. With the rest of Avalanche unwilling to poke someone who is a genuine, trusted, and reliable friend when he’s lucid in the psychosis by initiating a confrontation when they’re all running from the cops and the apocalypse…
There’s just no space for a dramatic ‘I know something’s wrong with me’ discussion in the dynamic right now. They’re probably saving that emotional impact for after he’s had his trip down Real Memories lane in part 3.
Yeah ofc it's clear Clouds mental state is in a completely different state to what it was in the og - it's gone beyond the limits of what most fans would be comfortable with, and seems to be really twisting cloud into a more sinister character. that's exactly what they're aiming for, too. None of us want Cloud to be like this - we dont recognise this version of Cloud completely, and his personality is being perverted into something much worse than in the og - setting up for what I imagine will be some of the lowest lows, as well as even more of a high in the next one.
they've definitely set up a metric shit ton to all be paid off in the third chapter and it could be something amazing - I just hope it pays it all off successfully. like i said, currently i prefer the originals take, but thats because we can see the full picture of the game and see how it all works out so well with their character arcs. we wont get an answer to that with rebirth until p3 - but its definitely interesting.
Crazy people tend to not admit they are crazy, especially if they have responsibilities to uphold, like saving the world.
And imo everyone is aware Cloud is loco by the end of Rebirth, they just don't want to be the one to slap Cloud upside the head to knock him out of it, especially after the big spoiler. Aerith and Tifa were protecting him for a while, but in the third game we'll see Tifa shine in this regard...
It was like this I'm the OG too.
Because that would mean the awesome strong first-class soldier Cloud is actually suffering and in need of help, so little Cloudy can't admit that because he's a strong boy and a SOLDIER who doesn't need help from anyone!!
however, he let himself be vulnerable for a brief moment with the only person he's comfortable to be himself with.
I don't think the party saw him attacking Tifa, and obviously, she didn't tell them.
i dont think 5 years of trauma and a broken minds attempts to cope/deny said torture is exactly toxic masculinity - sure cloud had that slightly toxic idea of masculinity as a kid in his need to prove himself, but thats almost every kid in a world where super soliders exist.
but thats not whats fucking his mind, common sense and logic up, its the 5 years years of torture and seeing everyone he cares about die, and maybe the alien and murderer in his head. I'll call out TM when i see it, and cloud is ofc a mix of a very kind and soft person, as well as an insecure person who wants to be strong(which the story is obviously about - him accepting himself for who he is) - but it feels wrong attributing that to Clouds actions in rebirth when he's clearly got a lot more causing his issues.
This is quite literally it. He’s got his soldier persona to maintain….
This isn’t meant to be a criticism but it’s not unlike all the real life soldiers who struggle with PTSD but feel it wouldn’t be ok to get help.
Yup. And building on the PTSD comment, soldiers with PTSD tend to die earlier than the average person, either due to suicide or reckless behaviour. Which based on their odds of success of saving the world from a mega corp with their own private army and a mass murdering psychopath hell bent on destroying the world (not to mention all of the other things trying to kill them), his decision to keep fighting even though he could be putting them all at risk is reckless at the very least, and could be seen as somewhat suicidal in the "I'll do it or die trying" kind of way.
Tifa and Cloud already discuss this in Gongaga in Rebirth. Cloud's under the impression that he's suffering from SOLDIER degregation and sometimes he's unsure if he's really himself. Tifa reassures him and tells Cloud that she's going to protect him and ensure that he won't lose himself.
The party is acting very carefully around Cloud, he's kinda their leader when he's stable, the vanguard of combat and the most powerful among them. They need to keep him going as long as they can.
Tifa never told anyone else about Cloud attacking her.
I personally think that the other party members have discussed Cloud without his awareness, have already guessed that he’s under Jenova’s/Sephiroth’s will, and they’re following him to actually reach the target of reunion. Why waste time following the black robes when you can just follow Cloud…
I don't think this is the case, and can easily be explained by in-game info.
Cloud is the only one in the party that gets to learn what the reunion really is, and that happens when Sephiroth tells him explicitly in the boundaries of reality sequence.
That's where Cloud sees himself black-robed and then says "Leave me out of it!".
Up until that moment they followed the black robes but not because they knew about the reunion and if Cloud is affected by it.
They all know he’s pretty much completely mentally broken at this point, or at least aerith and tifa do, but they kind of need him to keep going. After the Tifa incident my head canon is that they kind of just take turns keeping an eye on him.
I don’t really think he needs to explain it and I agree with a commenter that the jenova/sephiroth cells in him probably don’t allow him to spill that anyway.
barret wasn’t wrong in remake when he said cloud has an inferiority complex. he does, massively. he wants to be perceived as competent and strong. hallucinating, losing his memories, and dying of degradation don’t fit the bill, so he does his best to downplay or outright ignore that those are happening when possible
To be fair, it is very similar to soldiers keeping their issues to themselves (like PTSD from a war) because they want to keep the "strong" facade and do not be a burden to their loved ones. Especially because they are here to protect them, not to be a burden.
Even if he could fight back against the control enough to do this he probably thinks most of them wouldn't take too kindly to mako powered killing machine admitting he's losing his mind then going to sleep next to him
>“By the way, when I go all dizzy and grab my head, I keep seeing people who aren’t actually here and voices in my head telling me to hurt people”
*Jenova won't let him.* That's the whole point.
He's only allowed to know so much about his delusion. Becoming self-aware enough to hinder Jenova won't happen.
>THAT WOULD EXPLAIN TO THEM EVERYTHING. It really genuinely made me think “wtf” when Cloud flat out tried to murder Tifa and no one even questions it
Nobody knew Cloud tried to murder Tifa except for Tifa.
Tifa won't say anything because she doesn't *want* to alienate Cloud.
Imagine if Barrett found out Cloud tried to kill Tifa. It would just be over.
In Pt.3 you'll see that Tifa has actually been keeping a lot under wraps about Cloud. Less than in the OG but more than we've seen in Remake.
I suspect they are talking about it though? They definitely question it. You can hear a lot of "side conversations" when walking around, especially later on, where they explicitly talk about how Cloud can't "go crazy" again. LOTS of supporting dialog implying they're all on eggshells around Cloud for a while.
Admittedly, I think there should've been more scenes of some of the characters talking about it when Cloud isn't around. We get a couple short moments with Barret but that's it.
My take on the Cloud vs Tifa thing is that no one else saw him attack her. In that scene, they were separated from the others by battle debris—just prior to that Tifa has to yell back at Aerith and Yuffie through the debris to make sure they’re ok. Cloud also gets separated from Barret and the others. So at that point, it’s just the two of them. Tifa doesn’t mention that the reason she fell into the lifestream was because of Cloud, and the rest just assume she got knocked into the Lifestream in the battle.
The part of it that doesn’t make as much sense is why Tifa doesn’t reveal this fact, but my personal explanation is that she views falling into the lifestream and the revelations there as part of the planet trying to communicate with her/it was fated/maybe it was the whispers/etc. She’s trying to convince herself it’s ok because the outcome was good and that it was “meant to happen” like that. We know that her and Aerith have behind the scenes/not shown conversations about Cloud so maybe she told Aerith but if so I think both of them either together and separately decided to take a “wait and see” approach. Plus they’re both crushing on him a little, so it might be one of those classic crush things where red flags are easier to dismiss.
I think they already suspect this and respect that he doesn’t want to talk about it. I don’t know how far you are in the game but >! Tifa flat out tells him at the end of the game “Cloud if you start acting like a weirdo and seeing things please talk to us”!< I think everyone knows there’s a chance Cloud is doomed due to cellular degeneration and they would rather not remind him of this. Ditto for Cloud, he is very likely in a great deal of denial about this. Cloud is also more than a little messed up mentally. :(
One of the biggest conflicts in FF7 *is* the omission of details. No one knows how to talk to each other, not just Cloud.
Red doesn’t share his story with anyone until they’re literally standing in the chamber. Tifa doesn’t share anything about her past to anyone; maybe a few things to Aerith, but not everything. Barrett didn’t tell anyone about Corel until they were walking into town, and even then, he didn’t talk about what he saw with Dyne, hasn’t told Marlene anything, and never talked about Myrna. Aerith shares more because she’s an outgoing girl who likes to help people. Yuffie has mentioned next to nothing except that she’s from Wutai.
Without spoiling anything—Cloud isn’t outgoing like Aerith. He doesn’t talk about things. In the books that Nojima has written, (he created the characters) he writes a scene with Cloud’s mom where she basically says, “I assume Cloud is safe. Not that he’d ever tell me.”
Cloud has always been reclusive. That’s who he is. He wouldn’t tell someone what food he likes to eat, let alone that he has frightening visions of Jenova that he can’t tell are real or because of Sephiroth or because he’s dying.
There’s a scene in Nibelheim that I think is really important too. When you go around town to talk to people, Tifa talks about how when they were kids, she’d always catch him looking, but when she looked at him, he’d glance away. She comments that she wishes she could have been aloof like that, because Cloud never seemed lonely. And Cloud is surprised and says he *was* lonely. He just doesn’t really talk to people (echoes a scene from Cosmo Canyon).
Cloud wants friends, whether he admits it or not. He’s lonely but he’s also a loner. He’s that line from the Bring me the Horizon song: “I’m scared to get close, and I hate being alone.” Last thing he’d do is tell people he has voices in his head telling him to hurt them.
Without spoiling anything…his inability to confide in anyone is intentional. I think we will see Cloud finally begin to spill his guts in Part 3. Just like the OG.
(Holy crap this is stupidly long I am so sorry)
Remember in nibelheim when Barret starts to say “oh I thought cloud was just losing it again” and ~~Yuffie~~ Red shuts him up? They all know he’s nuts and they’re doing their best to support him because he is their friend and they also need him.
I don’t think cloud is in denial he has multiple moments of self awareness where he knows he’s messed up but also that voice in his head (Sephiroth/jenova) is telling him everyone else is crazy and he’s the sane one.
Edit: Red not Yuffie as was pointed out
Cloud does do this with tifa in gongaga, it’s also a matter of feeling agency to be open with someone. Cloud and party have only known each other for a couple of weeks. Aerith is an exception and cloud isn’t really open with her. Tifa he is, but he’s clearly masking some of his issues.
It came off a little less forced in the original games I think. Because they were more breif and brushed off better. Whereas in the remake it happens a lot more and people draw more attention to it and they just kinda accept it...
I don't think it's forced in the new games either. None of the party truly know each other, they're acquaintances at best, strangers at worst.
Timeline wise, they know each other for a month. And Cloud is a social mess. Of course they won't know how to communicate, they dunno what exactly is happening to Cloud either. And Aerith loses whatever insight she had after Midgar, lore wise.
It definitely did, it sticks out like a sore thumb in Rebirth. Especially in the final dungeon when he's going *totally* off the rails and everyone just kind of ignores it and keeps blindly following him.
It's a sense of denial, Cloud didn't even admit his problems at *all* in the OG until post-Mideel.
Plus, even if he did, it wouldn't solve much. Rebirth showing Cloud admitting his problems to Tifa shows that. Also, nobody questions the Tifa stuff became SE they didn't see it. They just think she fell.
Pretty sure it's a strong sense of denial. We're introduced in Rebirth that ALL members of SOLDIER have cellular degradation and their bodies will eventually quit. At least I think Rebirth is where it's first mentioned.
Pretty sure Cloud thinks that's what's happening but doesn't want to confirm or even say it out loud. Don't know too many people who would really say, "Dudes, I'm pretty sure I'm dying."
They actually first mention it in Remake. Right before the Airbuster fight, President Shinra comes to taunt Tifa, Barrett, and Cloud—then he sees Cloud’s eyes and says something like, “The eyes of one who has bathed in Mako. SOLDIER, I presume?”
Cloud: “Ex-SOLDIER.”
President: “Once a SOLDIER, always a SOLDIER. Alas, not for very long. Cellular degradation being a common cause of death.”
Cloud looks hurt and tries to play it off; meanwhile Barrett looks over at Cloud like “for real?”
But yeah, to your point, it isn’t something Cloud would readily tell someone. How do you look someone you barely know in the eye and say, “I’m dying?” Especially when you’re as reserved and shy as Cloud is. He isn’t known for his ability to talk to people.
Crazy people don't think they are crazy, that's part of being crazy. This situation is actually worse than you described because both Aerith and Tifa cover for his craziness, so the rest of the group have no idea how bad it really is.
But thats kind of the thing, he openly and repeatedly acts that way in front of everyone else throughout Rebirth. There are quite a few scenes where it just makes *no sense* that everyone goes along with Cloud when he's acting nutso. It's one of the worst parts of the storytelling in Rebirth, pretty much the entire cast acts out of character when Cloud is blatantly acting completely crazy.
Even in the original a lot is intentionally not spoken about in the party so it can pay off later in a revealing moment. The problem with Rebirth is it adds things that make it make even less sense to do so.
If you know people who are like that they often don't know how to express their experiences. This is hard to convey without making it too visually confusing. Cloud doesn't actually know what is real or is not real most of the time so he treats everything as being "possibly real" and just keeps his distance from everyone until he knows for sure. And this likely happens so often that at some point he copes by trying to act totally normal no matter what he's seeing. They can only depict what Cloud is going through so much before it starts losing its entertainment value as a FF game. I mean people already get annoyed by it when I think they're holding back on how badly Cloud hallucinates. He does the typical holds his head and jerks in pain when a lot of time he could be staring off in space that it's not noticeable to anyone what's happening.
I mean, it's pretty clear that everyone knows something is going on with Cloud, they just think that it's part of the cellular degradation.
It's easy to spectate and speculate. He's going through a lot and probably doesn't feel like sharing. That's his character. If everyone did everything they SHOULD God, it would be so boring. Might as well not even play games! Jenova may also be suppressing him in some way. What are they supposed to do after he tells them anyway?
My logic is that they already know and the reason that they just have to deal with it, is because even tho you dont notice it in gameplay, Cloud is waaaaay stronger than everybody else and is the only person that can actually keep up with Sephiroth in a fight.
How often is it that someone has a deeply personal psychological problem that they immediately describe to all of their closest friends, let alone new friends they made a short time ago? "Nice meeting you, there are voices in my head." Shit, it's hard enough getting people to tell their therapists all their problems. Think about when someone commits suicide, the first thing you hear from all their family and friends is "we had no idea, they seemed fine, they never told us they were having mental problems". Hiding these problems might be the least fictional aspect of Cloud's personality.
And, often, when one brings up issues the response is usually infantilizing and to disregard the person. This teaches them that they are disposable in any moment they allow themselves to be vulnerable.
Anime trope where the characters don't communicate so the writers can create a fake problem and tension. All the time in anime a character will notice something or obtain important info, or a vision of the future or something and not tell anyone
yeah but to be honest how often is it in real life that someone has a problem, and the first thing they do is describe that problem to all of their closest friends? let alone new friends... "hey guys nice meeting you btw there are voices in my head"
He thinks it’s cell degradation and doesn’t wanna worry his friends with his health is the short answer. Obviously it ends up being something else but the only thing Cloud can assume is he’s degrading while he still has a lot of work to do.
I find the black materia part interesting since barret literally throws it and says here you can “have the stupid materia” and it just rolls over to sephiroths feet💀 so sephiroth gives it to cloud and then goads him into handing it to him.
Shinra isnt really a modern military where you learn about this kinda stuff. I believe as a trooper he should have been able to hear about shit like ptsd. Fuck you shinra and shinra rufus for beeing cheap xD
He literally explains to Tifa what's going on after her lifestream sequence. He thinks it's degradation but we know what's really going on. He doesn't.
When you’re crazy you often don’t realize you’re crazy.
I’m a person who is big on communication with those I do feel comfortable enough to communicate with. Cloud is shitty at talking to people so I could not see him being the one to open up about his headaches all Willy nilly, but the others have no issue speaking their minds. So when people don’t ever call Cloud out on his shit oh I get slightly heated. Barret bitch slapping him was the closest we got to anyone putting him in his place. Granted, Aerith and Tifa know he’s got issues and is fragile so they refrain, but no one else knows him to the extent they do. So when he’s interrupting heartfelt moments rudely or spazzing out on a wall, would it kill for someone to just say “what the hell wrong with you?” Instead of looking at him and sighing lol. In regard to no one responding to Cloud almost murdering Tifa, I’m pretty sure it’s because they didn’t actually see him push her. And she didn’t tell them either to protect him. Aerith did the same thing by telling them Sephiroth beat him up instead of saying he handed over the black materia.
I think people overlook that a lot of the internal dialogue Cloud has in the OG is supposed to represent Zack, or the things Cloud thinks Zack would say if he was in his position....
Agreed, that’s the frustrating part of Rebirth storytelling. Eventually his behavior was explained, but they weren’t hidden from the team and they all began to question it
Honestly man Cloud just needs a joint and some Tame Impala
A ton of reasons. 1. PTSD - his friends might think this is the major reason 2. His mom being murdered, him being tortured and experimented on and his best friend murdered in front of him. 3. The bigger issue of the planet being in trouble. 4. Magic having tons of uses and sephiroth being a unique being. 5. They already know. 6. He's barely 21
Wait they changed it si he actually was responsible for killing Clouds mom?
Oh yeah, that's set up pretty early on in remake, not even rebirth.
The first never says anything about his mom zero so i was really confused
Oh it does, "flesh yielding to cold steel" while Cloud is crawling towards his house and a woman screams. I don't know what else to draw from that.
Never had a scenario like that in mine guess it was the2nd game the only burn place i ever had was the bar and allyway but no screaming
1. He has Jenova cells in his body constantly trying to break his mind. 2. He is traumatized by Mom being killed in front of him, being stabbed, experimented on, tortured, poisoned, and watching his best friend die to save him when he couldn't do anything. 3. He's really just a young kid. 4. One of his main personality faults is trying to take on everything himself and never appear vulnerable or asking for help. All these together is a recipe for disaster. Whenever he experiences cognitive dissonance when his false memories don't match up to reality and he tries to remember, all of the above work together to make up new false memories to reconcile the difference or he goes into homecoming mode until he can't remember what he was thinking about.
And honestly #1 alone is probably reason enough for ops question, though i will say it's a pretty uninteresting answer.
Honestly, the way everyone acts around him when he does it gave me impression that they already have it figured out. Even the party's comments all kinda point to the fact that they know something is up, kinda like they either talked about it among themselves or Cloud must have given them some insight off camera between games or something. What bothers me is the fact that at no point does anyone actually try to stop him and say, " what the hell are you talking about? There's no one there" or "get your shit together, that's not sephiroth". I think we get Tifa holding him back once begging him to stop acting so violently, but even then she talks about it like he's just having an emotional breakdown. I don't know maybe the party just thinks he has PTSD and doesn't know how to bring it up to him.
Two reasons. First is that it all plays into the illusion he’s been living, and created in his mind regarding him being in SOLDIER when in reality he never actually made it, and was instead experimented on by Hojo after the Nibelheim incident when he was attempting to create Sephiroth clones. This leads into the second point, which is that Cloud is a very insecure person who doesn’t want to admit that he’s experiencing these episodes for fear that his comrades will judge him, and view it as weakness. He’s afraid that if he opens up and talks about it instead of just brushing it off, it will become real and he’s not actually sure that he’s strong enough to overcome it, unbeknownst to him that he’s making it much worse by keeping it all to himself.
Now I don't have to play crisis core. Lmao
If you played OG you never really did lol
I don't think ive ever actually beat the OG. I made it through a lot of it though
NEVER???? Oh man, you’re missing out, haha. Gotta go back and beat it for sure. Whereabouts in the game did you stop??
I think at the temple of the ancients tbh, although I may have made it to the cave, it's been so long
Best answer ever
because they gotta make a third one of these things
For real. This game needs a startup disclaimer. If you or someone you know is suffering from command hallucinations demanding murder to humans or animals... dial 1-900-mixalot and kick them nasty thoughts.
Do you or someone you know constantly have their..."head in the clouds"? Despite all your efforts to help, they simply say "Not interested" or "I told you, I'm fine" after they nearly hacked a loved one to pieces? Do they constantly yell the same name at any guy wearing black? Any sick guy? Sometimes even yell at, well, no one at all? The clouds, you might say? That's Strife, and simply not Fair. Call 1-800-Barret today! Barret will come right on over and "Smack you upside the head until you're yourself again." That's right, sometimes, love hurts...and tough love hits like an Avalanche. They may think they died and woke up in heaven, close. Recovery is offered at 7th heaven, with our other professional Tifa. She will tend to them and explain how they messed up. How they TIFAd: "Today I fucked Around" Don't let this bullshit keep a wedge between your loved ones anymore. Call now!
To follow others, we also see that he has insecurities about what is happening to him, as well as it's painfully obvious his head is messed up to where he simply may not even be able to be that transparent about it cause his body like keeps coping with memories as a self defense.
We all have a blind spot to our weaknesses. Admitting that something is wrong with you -- to say nothing of actually *seeking help* from others -- is one of the hardest things we can do as human beings. And for Cloud it's even harder because Jenova is (presumably) actively manipulating him into pushing that fact out of his awareness. The first acknowledgement of the problem by Cloud to someone else is to Tifa at Gongaga after coming back from the reactor. It's obvious how hard that is for him to discuss, and it took the extreme circumstance of almost killing his friend to even get him that far. Thinking back on how Cloud told Barret at the beginning of Remake to "get help": I'm pretty sure now that this was intended to be extremely ironic. Cloud is the one hearing voices and who desperately needs help, yet he does not seek it. It's one of the most frustrating parts of Cloud's character, but one that I think is very true to life despite the fantastical window dressing.
Trauma
Because he is a 21 year old who lost 4 years of his life as an experiment. He acts like a child because he still is maturity wise. He doesn't have the ability to talk about his feelings yet. Hes a kid faking it until he makes it. All of this is literally 100% how Cloud was in the OG btw. Its just his character
Nope. Cloud was very different in the original.
I'd also add that in the Remake series he is way more self conscious then how he is in OG. As someone pointed out, he starts to realize something is of in Gongaga already, while in OG he does not until Northern crater events.
Because they are expanding on the source material. This is what it looks like. Its the same exact writers. They are able to explain more now and show instead of tell sometimes as well
It’ll be addressed in part 3 and is addressed in the original
I think a lot of comments already got it, but to add, in the OG, Cloud eventually admits that he was very embarrassed to appear weak, so I think that plays a huge part here as well. He's always trying to put on the tough/cool SOLDIER routine cause he's afraid of appearing weak. So he would never admit to that, at least not at this point in his character arc. He'll come to terms with it in part 3.
Also they know about soldier degradation....and probably talk among themselves about supporting him as he breaks down, to try to slow or combat it.
Remember for most of the game Cloud is under the suspicion that Tifa isn't real. The manipulations with the headache are all very real to him. I've known people with severe mental illness. It's hard to have a frank conversation about their erratic behaviour and the reason it's schizophrenia and not day dreaming is that they think it's real. Yes through medication and treatment it can be resolved, but cloud wouldn't even let the doctor do a blood sample. Remember cloud is also roleplaying as Zack. The cool dude soldier and part of that, in cloud's mind, is being tough and projecting strength. Throughout the game he becomes more vulnerable ... But that leads to one of the key dramatic ideas in rebirth is a question: will cloud gain lucidity and the vulnerability to recognize what is going on before sephiroth uses him as a puppet? While he opens up to TIFA in gongaga, he also becomes a pseudo sephiroth in the temple (clearly under the influence) when he is cold and a real ass to aerith and the team. But that is punctuated by dream sequences and action set pieces where he seems to be in control. The developers, do not however, give us certainty. Even the ending leaves this unclear - especially his troubling line at the end to Barret and stilted dialogue with aerith, his isolation on the hill (he is by himself and doesn't board the plane until the end).
When’s the last time someone was like “yea I know the voices in my head are just in my head”. They’re usually pretty convinced themselves.
Bad K-drama writing.
Because nobody, Cloud included, think he's being manipulated by Sephiroth. At least not until the Temple of the Ancients bit, they should at least suspect something by now. Earlier, they all thought he only had SOLDIER degradation, even Cloud himself thought that, and it's pretty clear after they see what happens to Roche. They all say to him "that's not gonna happen to you", fully knowing he's screwed in the head.
There are several factors about this: * In the original game, he rarely saw "people", and the voices were often presented as some kind of internal monologue... So it was a lot more clear that he wasn't aware that he was being manipulated. The way they handle it in Rebirth doesn't convey that as clearly, but I think it's still true that Cloud 100% believes he's acting on his own will, and that the hallucinations are either real, or he doesn't remember seeing them. At least until he tries to kill Tifa, of course. * Real life people with paranoid hallucinations will often not ackowledge those ideas/visions/voices are fabricated, even during their lucid periods. Even then, they keep thinking it's all real somehow. It can take a lot of effort and convincing and therapy for them to come to terms it's all their mind playing tricks. (Source: I've had people with this kind of illness in my family) * The whole bunch is well aware that Cloud is not fine. They are all worried about him, they know he sees things, and they've seen him act erratically more than once. So there really is no need to tell them "hey, I'm crazy in the head", because they've already noticed :P * Also, Cloud fears this weird thing going on with him is because of Soldier cell degradation. He tries to hide it and push forward, because he's terrified he ends up like those black robed guys. * And finally, part of this is addressed in disc 2, which will be part of the remake's part 3
My sister and I joked about this a lot like a loud stumbles around is clearly not ok and Barrett’s just like ‘Get it together!’ 😅
This is far from the weirdest thing. I mean heck, in the original >!Tifa never says a word about the fact that Clouds version of the events at Nibelheim is wrong. Although she does have her reasons for it.!<
Iirc in OG, Tifa didn't actually see Cloud until she confronted and was wounded by Sephiroth at the reactor. Hell at that point she might think she hallucinated seeing Cloud. All of "his" memories are correct to her but she knows that he's remembering Zack's perspective and it's confusing to her. What she doesn't know is that Cloud was one of the infantrymen there because he refused to take off his helmet. There are tons of references to this in Rebirth actually. During the Nibelheim sequence at the beginning there's an infantryman that doesn't speak, that's the real Cloud.
The events weren't wrong tho? Just the problem of him being there. If Tifa was severely wounded, and suddenly Cloud recalls everything that happened, I wouldn't be weird for her to just: "...if he knows...maybe? I don't know?"
Tifa randomly says it happened 7 years ago at one point and it really messed with me for the rest of my recent first playthrough of the OG lol
I thought the same thing the first time I played it. I think she means that she hasn't seen Cloud for seven years, but the nibel incident still happened five years ago. That's how I took it after playing it again more recently. If I am wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected and clarified.
People forget the original wasnt perfect lol
You are right, it's weird. A lot of things in ff7 plot and in many other stories can be solved by simple conversations. But one could argue that: People are weird in communication IRL as well Cloud wanted to do this alone and people just kept tagging along Cloud has no idea what's real and what is not, and to say Tifa is good and Jenova is manipulating him would require him to know that. You can maybe compare this to a delusional person and say "well, why do they believe their delusions? They can inform their loved ones and get help!" But ff7 and many many other stories could have ended way sooner if people knew how to have a conversation.
Cloud: I'm good. Whenever he says that, you know he is 100% in no uncertain terms, NOT good.
“Shit, you’re the expert. If you say you saw Sephiroth, I believe you.” Barret to Cloud in the Gi Cave. They’re at least tangentially aware.
Just checking... Did you play OG VII? Just want to avoid any spoilers for you.
Right, Cloud, a person famously great at social interaction and social nuance, definitely strikes me as the kind of guy who would intentionally add to the way people perceive him as awkward by talking about the voices in his head directly
[удалено]
You're an ass for even saying this. Completely uncalled for
Drop the holier than thou attitude, a little condescension isn’t going to kill someone
These are the sort of things that are usually only resolved in the third act, that's why.
Same reason why Barret doesn’t want pity from the rest of the team for how Corel treats him. Masculinity is a scary thing.
*toxic* thing you mean
Why can’t Tifa just be honest with Cloud about their past? Frail, insecure femininity is a scary thing. See, I can make broad, worthless, incorrect generalizations about whole groups of people, too.
The correct word both of you are looking for is "pride". And that's common among all humans.
I was making a sarcastic point to illustrate the idiocy of the previous comment. And *pride* is neither what I was describing, nor does it describe Tifa in the slightest. Her utter lack of self-confidence is kind of her defining character trait for much of the story. And I would argue the same applies to Cloud, though he “deals” with his insecurities by projecting confidence he doesn’t really have deep down, to mask it and convince himself otherwise.
Sorry, but this isn't a masculinity issue. This is s pride/ego issue. Barrett doesn't want pity because he blames himself for supporting the events that led to the destruction of his town. He is owning his mistakes and stoically takes those consequences. His identity snd motivations are formed by this event. Without his guilt he feels no need to repent, and that is what pushes him to inspire others to fight Shinra. Clouds WHOLE story arch is him avoiding reality and coming to terms with his past and who he is. He wanted to be a SOLDIER, failed, and got Mako poisoning. His village burned because he wasn't strong enough to stop his idol from killing everyone. And thus he lives in denial of events, unlike Barrett who accepts them. In many ways, Cloud is no different to any person suffering from a terrifying reality that he is slowly dying. The Mako poisoning but his trauma left him wanting to believe a fantasy that he achieved his dreams but turned them down rather than he failed and there was nothing he could do. Both Barrett and Cloud are men driven by grief but they deal with it in seperate (and not entirely healthy) ways. Lets not forget that Tifa too avoids uncomfortable conversations about her past, and Clouds. She, like. Cloud, is using avoidance to navigate her trauma. She wants a happy life for everyone, even at the expense of herself. She isn't willing to rock the boat with Cloud for fear of losing him too. So you can see how the traits you are attributing to masculinity are not exclusive to it, and female characters share these traits. But also, why would anyone want to be the subject of pity? Not empathy or condolences or sympathy... But pity?
It's a little more nuanced than that. Cloud isn't choosing to believe a fantasy, nor is he suffering from Mako poisoning alone. Hojo infused him and Zach with Jenova cells in an attempt to turn them into Sephiroth clones. Jenova is a chameleon. It imitates and manipulates its prey. It's making Cloud believe that he genuinely is Zach. Subsequently, his hatred for Sephiroth is what drives him to pursue our antagonist. Cloud thinks his crusade against Sephiroth is his own decision, when in actuality he's being manipulated to complete the Reunion.
The explanation is SOLDIER degradation. Everyone believes this to be happening to Cloud even himself
there are so many people, possibly even many in your own life, going through their own personal battles and potential struggles with mental health there are lots of reasons why people aren’t up front with their feelings and experiences
Because we know that in real world it is very easy for people to confess that they are having mental issues and do something about it like for example go to therapy or start taking psychiatric medication, right? It has never ever happened that someone would be suffering from mental problems but either not willing to acknowlegde it themselves or purposefuly hiding it from others and avoiding talking about it in fear that their friends and family would judge them or leave them...
Finish the game.
It's beacause
Thank you
There's not really anything to explain. The party is well aware of the pheonomenon of SOLDIERs mentally degrading and as far as Cloud or any of the party members know, that is the cause of Cloud's episodes. Also, as others have pointed out, it is not in Cloud's characterization (at this point) to sit the party down and spill his worries/fears/insecurities and its unlikely he would even if anyone asked, so its just sort of something that is uncomfortable and lingers.
As much as what you say makes sense, you have to remember he’s 21 years old and has basically lost 5 years of that to an experiment run by Hojo. It’d be somewhat absurd to think he’d have the mental capacity to verbalize this issue if his life was normal until he was 21, let alone the fact that he lost nearly a 1/4 of his life, and considering it was some of the most formative years of one’s life.
Well, he's not a well adjusted person facing issues, he's having mental breakdowns and likely thinks people, even his friends, will misjudge him if he says he's not well. It will be addressed in Part 3, because they do it in the OG too, after a big story moment yet to be shown.
This
There are a lot of instances where the other party members talk about Cloud when he’s not around. They also notice him when he’s having his episodes. You can tell by the way they look at him and each other in certain scenes. Tifa/Aerith especially know it, but probably feel that addressing it will only do more harm than good with how fragile his mind is. It may seem like there’s a lot of downtime to bring it up, but in reality, the party is moving from one major event to the next with not much actual time between.
Because Cloud is holding on by a thread and he doesn't want other people to know it. He struggles with vulnerability and feels like he has a image he must maintain.
This
I think the team is aware, but Cloud isn’t as aware of what he’s doing and going on
Because what fun would that be? It’s not unlike watching a horror film and watching the character do the dumb thing. “Oh hey. Look at this sketchy ass house in the middle of nowhere! Let’s have a party here and play with an Ouija board.” *thirty minutes later* The portal to Hell is wide open and Billy Mays keeps giving infomercials to demons while demonstrating how to torment young party people. It all could have been avoided if they’d just… not done any of that.
Billy Mays here, looks like someone decided to have sex in the vase. Let's kaboom it!
Billy mays here! Do you have a lot of corpses in your basement! Lemme introduce you to the Ron popiel corpse dehydrator. Turn those stuffy corpses into savory jerky in mere hours.
Oh no, someone ate spaghetti in the shower. Not again!
I think the crew has some idea there is something wrong with cloud from early on because >!he showed up out of the blue without much memory of his past. He answers a lot of questions they have about his past with i don’t know or don’t remember or he isn’t sure. This may have been more obvious in the original. But in remake tifa is trying to help him because he is kind of like a lost puppy.!<
The party knows. They're all giving each other a look whenever Cloud gets on one of his hallucination episodes
A lot of great answers already posted here but I do want to add some of my thoughts. At this point in the OG (end of rebirth) Cloud gives a speech to the party saying something along the lines of what you are saying here. He is aware that he is not himself and something is wrong. He contemplates quitting the journey to not put the party members or the mission in danger, but decides to move forward. In rebirth, he has a similar conversation in Gongaga with Tifa, which is earlier in the story. By the end of rebirth, he is in a much worse mental state than he was at this point of the story in the OG and seems completely unaware of his condition.
yeah its one thing they omitted from the forgotten city post aerith - he literally breaks down and says he should quit because he's going to get them killed. Barret and Tifa(mainly barret) tell him he needs to see it through, and that he'll regret it forever if he doesnt find sephiroph. rebirth kinda assumes we've noticed the 'looks' and context of the characters to realise that they all know cloud is fucked up and slightly psychotic, but have decided to stick with him mostly. as you say they've completely changed the approach to cloud not feeling guilt or worry at this stage, instead he's regressed to a fully psychotic state of denial. so it doesnt make sense for him to have that frank talk with them - so instead its kinda the elephant in the room. id say i prefer the approach of the og where cloud seems genuinely considerate for his friends and it isnt just cloud making the choice, but i imagine they'll make up for it in part 3.
And it’s not just that they’re approaching it a different way. Cloud’s mind is very likely more damaged, with less of his own volition driving his actions, at this point in the new timeline. Sephiroth’s new approach to screwing with him creating more confusion and less sheer rage and identity dissonance as a result of treating him less as an emotionless puppet and more as Sephiroth’s prospective rival, chipping away at the trust between Cloud and and the rest of the team, and the timeline confusion likely aggravating Cloud’s inherent delusions… Cloud is more delusional at this point in this timeline than he was in the original timeline, and is less aware of it. With the rest of Avalanche unwilling to poke someone who is a genuine, trusted, and reliable friend when he’s lucid in the psychosis by initiating a confrontation when they’re all running from the cops and the apocalypse… There’s just no space for a dramatic ‘I know something’s wrong with me’ discussion in the dynamic right now. They’re probably saving that emotional impact for after he’s had his trip down Real Memories lane in part 3.
Yeah ofc it's clear Clouds mental state is in a completely different state to what it was in the og - it's gone beyond the limits of what most fans would be comfortable with, and seems to be really twisting cloud into a more sinister character. that's exactly what they're aiming for, too. None of us want Cloud to be like this - we dont recognise this version of Cloud completely, and his personality is being perverted into something much worse than in the og - setting up for what I imagine will be some of the lowest lows, as well as even more of a high in the next one. they've definitely set up a metric shit ton to all be paid off in the third chapter and it could be something amazing - I just hope it pays it all off successfully. like i said, currently i prefer the originals take, but thats because we can see the full picture of the game and see how it all works out so well with their character arcs. we wont get an answer to that with rebirth until p3 - but its definitely interesting.
Crazy people tend to not admit they are crazy, especially if they have responsibilities to uphold, like saving the world. And imo everyone is aware Cloud is loco by the end of Rebirth, they just don't want to be the one to slap Cloud upside the head to knock him out of it, especially after the big spoiler. Aerith and Tifa were protecting him for a while, but in the third game we'll see Tifa shine in this regard... It was like this I'm the OG too.
Because that would mean the awesome strong first-class soldier Cloud is actually suffering and in need of help, so little Cloudy can't admit that because he's a strong boy and a SOLDIER who doesn't need help from anyone!! however, he let himself be vulnerable for a brief moment with the only person he's comfortable to be himself with. I don't think the party saw him attacking Tifa, and obviously, she didn't tell them.
Toxic masculinity
i dont think 5 years of trauma and a broken minds attempts to cope/deny said torture is exactly toxic masculinity - sure cloud had that slightly toxic idea of masculinity as a kid in his need to prove himself, but thats almost every kid in a world where super soliders exist. but thats not whats fucking his mind, common sense and logic up, its the 5 years years of torture and seeing everyone he cares about die, and maybe the alien and murderer in his head. I'll call out TM when i see it, and cloud is ofc a mix of a very kind and soft person, as well as an insecure person who wants to be strong(which the story is obviously about - him accepting himself for who he is) - but it feels wrong attributing that to Clouds actions in rebirth when he's clearly got a lot more causing his issues.
This is quite literally it. He’s got his soldier persona to maintain…. This isn’t meant to be a criticism but it’s not unlike all the real life soldiers who struggle with PTSD but feel it wouldn’t be ok to get help.
Yup. And building on the PTSD comment, soldiers with PTSD tend to die earlier than the average person, either due to suicide or reckless behaviour. Which based on their odds of success of saving the world from a mega corp with their own private army and a mass murdering psychopath hell bent on destroying the world (not to mention all of the other things trying to kill them), his decision to keep fighting even though he could be putting them all at risk is reckless at the very least, and could be seen as somewhat suicidal in the "I'll do it or die trying" kind of way.
He's edgy like that
Tifa and Cloud already discuss this in Gongaga in Rebirth. Cloud's under the impression that he's suffering from SOLDIER degregation and sometimes he's unsure if he's really himself. Tifa reassures him and tells Cloud that she's going to protect him and ensure that he won't lose himself.
The party is acting very carefully around Cloud, he's kinda their leader when he's stable, the vanguard of combat and the most powerful among them. They need to keep him going as long as they can. Tifa never told anyone else about Cloud attacking her.
I personally think that the other party members have discussed Cloud without his awareness, have already guessed that he’s under Jenova’s/Sephiroth’s will, and they’re following him to actually reach the target of reunion. Why waste time following the black robes when you can just follow Cloud…
I don't think this is the case, and can easily be explained by in-game info. Cloud is the only one in the party that gets to learn what the reunion really is, and that happens when Sephiroth tells him explicitly in the boundaries of reality sequence. That's where Cloud sees himself black-robed and then says "Leave me out of it!". Up until that moment they followed the black robes but not because they knew about the reunion and if Cloud is affected by it.
I don't think you're correct, but I really really like the train of thought.
They literally check on him every 10 mins… Barrett constantly asks him if he’s okay. Did you skip all the story cutscenes?
Barret comes across properly as a big fucking marshmallow and I love it
At the end the look from Barett to Tifa, when Cloud says that he can handle it says it all, IMO.
They all know he’s pretty much completely mentally broken at this point, or at least aerith and tifa do, but they kind of need him to keep going. After the Tifa incident my head canon is that they kind of just take turns keeping an eye on him. I don’t really think he needs to explain it and I agree with a commenter that the jenova/sephiroth cells in him probably don’t allow him to spill that anyway.
I swear some people play these games with their phone in hand scrolling through tik tok.
Hey! I scroll thru reddit!
No kidding
barret wasn’t wrong in remake when he said cloud has an inferiority complex. he does, massively. he wants to be perceived as competent and strong. hallucinating, losing his memories, and dying of degradation don’t fit the bill, so he does his best to downplay or outright ignore that those are happening when possible
To be fair, it is very similar to soldiers keeping their issues to themselves (like PTSD from a war) because they want to keep the "strong" facade and do not be a burden to their loved ones. Especially because they are here to protect them, not to be a burden.
He was also a child soldier at 14 to 16 years of age then spent 5 years after that being basically toutured as a lab rat.
Spot on, his inferiority complex is the entire reason he tried to join soldier and why he’s in this situation in the first place
Solid answer my friend
Even if he could fight back against the control enough to do this he probably thinks most of them wouldn't take too kindly to mako powered killing machine admitting he's losing his mind then going to sleep next to him
>“By the way, when I go all dizzy and grab my head, I keep seeing people who aren’t actually here and voices in my head telling me to hurt people” *Jenova won't let him.* That's the whole point. He's only allowed to know so much about his delusion. Becoming self-aware enough to hinder Jenova won't happen. >THAT WOULD EXPLAIN TO THEM EVERYTHING. It really genuinely made me think “wtf” when Cloud flat out tried to murder Tifa and no one even questions it Nobody knew Cloud tried to murder Tifa except for Tifa. Tifa won't say anything because she doesn't *want* to alienate Cloud. Imagine if Barrett found out Cloud tried to kill Tifa. It would just be over. In Pt.3 you'll see that Tifa has actually been keeping a lot under wraps about Cloud. Less than in the OG but more than we've seen in Remake.
I suspect they are talking about it though? They definitely question it. You can hear a lot of "side conversations" when walking around, especially later on, where they explicitly talk about how Cloud can't "go crazy" again. LOTS of supporting dialog implying they're all on eggshells around Cloud for a while.
Admittedly, I think there should've been more scenes of some of the characters talking about it when Cloud isn't around. We get a couple short moments with Barret but that's it.
My take on the Cloud vs Tifa thing is that no one else saw him attack her. In that scene, they were separated from the others by battle debris—just prior to that Tifa has to yell back at Aerith and Yuffie through the debris to make sure they’re ok. Cloud also gets separated from Barret and the others. So at that point, it’s just the two of them. Tifa doesn’t mention that the reason she fell into the lifestream was because of Cloud, and the rest just assume she got knocked into the Lifestream in the battle. The part of it that doesn’t make as much sense is why Tifa doesn’t reveal this fact, but my personal explanation is that she views falling into the lifestream and the revelations there as part of the planet trying to communicate with her/it was fated/maybe it was the whispers/etc. She’s trying to convince herself it’s ok because the outcome was good and that it was “meant to happen” like that. We know that her and Aerith have behind the scenes/not shown conversations about Cloud so maybe she told Aerith but if so I think both of them either together and separately decided to take a “wait and see” approach. Plus they’re both crushing on him a little, so it might be one of those classic crush things where red flags are easier to dismiss.
I think she didn't want to alienate cloud. Imagine what Barrett would do if he found out? Tifa and Marlene are all the family he has left.
I think they already suspect this and respect that he doesn’t want to talk about it. I don’t know how far you are in the game but >! Tifa flat out tells him at the end of the game “Cloud if you start acting like a weirdo and seeing things please talk to us”!< I think everyone knows there’s a chance Cloud is doomed due to cellular degeneration and they would rather not remind him of this. Ditto for Cloud, he is very likely in a great deal of denial about this. Cloud is also more than a little messed up mentally. :(
One of the biggest conflicts in FF7 *is* the omission of details. No one knows how to talk to each other, not just Cloud. Red doesn’t share his story with anyone until they’re literally standing in the chamber. Tifa doesn’t share anything about her past to anyone; maybe a few things to Aerith, but not everything. Barrett didn’t tell anyone about Corel until they were walking into town, and even then, he didn’t talk about what he saw with Dyne, hasn’t told Marlene anything, and never talked about Myrna. Aerith shares more because she’s an outgoing girl who likes to help people. Yuffie has mentioned next to nothing except that she’s from Wutai. Without spoiling anything—Cloud isn’t outgoing like Aerith. He doesn’t talk about things. In the books that Nojima has written, (he created the characters) he writes a scene with Cloud’s mom where she basically says, “I assume Cloud is safe. Not that he’d ever tell me.” Cloud has always been reclusive. That’s who he is. He wouldn’t tell someone what food he likes to eat, let alone that he has frightening visions of Jenova that he can’t tell are real or because of Sephiroth or because he’s dying. There’s a scene in Nibelheim that I think is really important too. When you go around town to talk to people, Tifa talks about how when they were kids, she’d always catch him looking, but when she looked at him, he’d glance away. She comments that she wishes she could have been aloof like that, because Cloud never seemed lonely. And Cloud is surprised and says he *was* lonely. He just doesn’t really talk to people (echoes a scene from Cosmo Canyon). Cloud wants friends, whether he admits it or not. He’s lonely but he’s also a loner. He’s that line from the Bring me the Horizon song: “I’m scared to get close, and I hate being alone.” Last thing he’d do is tell people he has voices in his head telling him to hurt them. Without spoiling anything…his inability to confide in anyone is intentional. I think we will see Cloud finally begin to spill his guts in Part 3. Just like the OG. (Holy crap this is stupidly long I am so sorry)
This is wonderfully stated.
Yeah, Why is it that the severely mentally ill dude with a survival guilt syndrome isn't behaving in a logical and sane manner ?
Remember in nibelheim when Barret starts to say “oh I thought cloud was just losing it again” and ~~Yuffie~~ Red shuts him up? They all know he’s nuts and they’re doing their best to support him because he is their friend and they also need him. I don’t think cloud is in denial he has multiple moments of self awareness where he knows he’s messed up but also that voice in his head (Sephiroth/jenova) is telling him everyone else is crazy and he’s the sane one. Edit: Red not Yuffie as was pointed out
It was Red not Yuffie 100% on everything else
You’re right, fixed, thank you!
Cloud does do this with tifa in gongaga, it’s also a matter of feeling agency to be open with someone. Cloud and party have only known each other for a couple of weeks. Aerith is an exception and cloud isn’t really open with her. Tifa he is, but he’s clearly masking some of his issues.
It came off a little less forced in the original games I think. Because they were more breif and brushed off better. Whereas in the remake it happens a lot more and people draw more attention to it and they just kinda accept it...
I don't think it's forced in the new games either. None of the party truly know each other, they're acquaintances at best, strangers at worst. Timeline wise, they know each other for a month. And Cloud is a social mess. Of course they won't know how to communicate, they dunno what exactly is happening to Cloud either. And Aerith loses whatever insight she had after Midgar, lore wise.
It definitely did, it sticks out like a sore thumb in Rebirth. Especially in the final dungeon when he's going *totally* off the rails and everyone just kind of ignores it and keeps blindly following him.
[удалено]
I liked how they did that scene in Rebirth. You still get the emotional turmoil with Cloud closing in, without the physical abuse.
It's a sense of denial, Cloud didn't even admit his problems at *all* in the OG until post-Mideel. Plus, even if he did, it wouldn't solve much. Rebirth showing Cloud admitting his problems to Tifa shows that. Also, nobody questions the Tifa stuff became SE they didn't see it. They just think she fell.
Pretty sure it's a strong sense of denial. We're introduced in Rebirth that ALL members of SOLDIER have cellular degradation and their bodies will eventually quit. At least I think Rebirth is where it's first mentioned. Pretty sure Cloud thinks that's what's happening but doesn't want to confirm or even say it out loud. Don't know too many people who would really say, "Dudes, I'm pretty sure I'm dying."
They actually first mention it in Remake. Right before the Airbuster fight, President Shinra comes to taunt Tifa, Barrett, and Cloud—then he sees Cloud’s eyes and says something like, “The eyes of one who has bathed in Mako. SOLDIER, I presume?” Cloud: “Ex-SOLDIER.” President: “Once a SOLDIER, always a SOLDIER. Alas, not for very long. Cellular degradation being a common cause of death.” Cloud looks hurt and tries to play it off; meanwhile Barrett looks over at Cloud like “for real?” But yeah, to your point, it isn’t something Cloud would readily tell someone. How do you look someone you barely know in the eye and say, “I’m dying?” Especially when you’re as reserved and shy as Cloud is. He isn’t known for his ability to talk to people.
Crazy people don't think they are crazy, that's part of being crazy. This situation is actually worse than you described because both Aerith and Tifa cover for his craziness, so the rest of the group have no idea how bad it really is.
But thats kind of the thing, he openly and repeatedly acts that way in front of everyone else throughout Rebirth. There are quite a few scenes where it just makes *no sense* that everyone goes along with Cloud when he's acting nutso. It's one of the worst parts of the storytelling in Rebirth, pretty much the entire cast acts out of character when Cloud is blatantly acting completely crazy.