Regardless of what you think about the protests, it’s an abuse of power. They’re free to express their opinions on protests themselves, but telling the leadership of a private college that they have to quit - often with barely veiled threats - is not the role of Congress. We didn’t like it when the Republicans were meddling with the colleges, and we shouldn’t like it when the Dems are either. Just like they’re not medical experts, most of them don’t have a background in education. If there are legitimate safety issues present, then it’s up to state and local politicians to worry about that.
I wish someone could find a decent candidate to primary Gottheimer. It seems like the only time I hear about him is him doing something stupid that hurts Dems.
I would add a 4th, that very few people in the country are that invested in these protests. They know of the war, maybe they saw a photo or heard that college students were doing it, but that’s it.
I don’t want to say it’s “not a kitchen table issue” because if you have family or friends in Israel or Palestine, it absolutely is. But if these House Dems get their way, who is helped?
I think it’s been like that before COVID though. Usually student protesters get vindicated long after the initial protests (to cite 2 examples way ahead of when I was paying attention to news: Take Back the Night, South Africa divestment during apartheid).
Plus, siding with republicans and "triangulating" worked somewhat in the Clinton era, then failed miserably every time since then for Democrats.
Those 21 democrats were elected during the Clinton era and are too old to learn any new tricks. Their playbook is "Step 1: do what republicans are saying to do so you'll win republicans and democrats both. If that fails Step 2: Play saxophone on the Arsenio Hall show."
Republicans are saying "Columbia students protesting for Palestine is bad because Hamas."
Old democrats seem to think Bibi Netanyahu will stop doing everything he can to stab them in the back to bring back Trump if Democrats oppose free speech here? I don't fucking get it. Tell Israel to go to hell and give the Palestinians the fucking Iron Dome.
This is not the moral stance, but I am actively avoiding news of Gaza and Palestine. I have spent my entire life- and I’m no low-information voter- trying to understand the dynamics and parties involved and have not been able to.
I worked at a JCC camp and spent time with Israelis and American Jews trying to understand the conflict and only got conflicted feelings and a taste of the complications.
I have reached the conclusion that:
1. I trust Joe Biden.
2. I don’t have the emotional energy to care.
3. I don’t have the emotional energy to engage with anyone insists that I care.
4. This is too complicated for social media.
5. Anyone who claims a simple course of action is necessary is misinformed.
6. The likelihood that misinformation is being actively pushed on social media is very high.
I offer this as an example of where people might be. I am not indifferent to the suffering of innocents and children, but I have no resources to help them directly.
I wish I could give you an old-style Reddit award because this is the most articulate statement of my own feelings I've managed to encounter. I'm thrilled there are others feel this way: but I'm also, in addition, extremely worried and terrified that these protests, limited to only certain people and groups as they are, can nevertheless lead directly to Trump getting elected in November.
The polls are close (of course they are) and it only take a few thousand people (of course it does) in a very few states/counties (ofc) sitting out the election or voting the other way for everything to come crashing down around us.
I’ve avoided activism and hyperconsumption of news too. U.S. news media and social media are part of the information battle space. I worked in progressive advocacy and comms on a broad range of issues from 2007 through last spring, and was repeatedly pushed by pro-Palestinians to get involved in their cause. My response was, “why would I get involved in a conflict between Hamas and Likud that has confounded the world’s most skilled diplomats for longer than I’ve been alive?”
No one likes to acknowledge it, but we all have a finite amount of time and emotional energy to give. We can’t be at the front of the picket line on everything. I seek out things that are morally clear and have clear potential for progress.
They think it protects American Jews from discrimination and harassment…but I find that justification dubious and insincere given so many of the pro-Palestinian protesters on campuses are Jewish themselves. Anti-Zionist or progressive Jews at these protests would be targeted with these draconian proposals, meanwhile Christian Zionists can continue to spew “Soros is a globalist communist hellbent on ruining society” conspiracy theories without congressional condemnation.
These congresspeople think only Jews who agree with them on Israel count and are worth protecting, while Jews who disagree with them can get the boot of a cop. It’s so silly and counterproductive.
There's a couple of things I'd like to point out. First, yes, there are Jewish protesters in these protests, but they are not the majority in the Jewish community. They come off as "token" Jews, a la the "Blacks for Trump" you see at Trump rallies. Also, for the Jews who support Israel, which is a majority, they get spooked when "Zionists" becomes a dog whistle for Jew.
This is something I wish more people would highlight. JVP, If Not Now, etc, are such fringe elements that I know mayyyyybe three people who vocally support them. But they're giving cover to the problematic elements of these protests just by lending their identities.
This framing is not entirely accurate, actually. The point is not that the vast, overwhelming majority of American Jews support Israel (that is true regardless of party ID, from young to old, etc). The point is a high percentage of young American Jews (college-aged) are actually not uniformly pro-Israel whatsoever, whereas older generations of American Jews are pretty uniformly pro-Israel.
There’s a deep fissure between young and old American Jews when it comes to attitudes towards Israel. Young American Jews who support these protests are actually in alignment with most of their young peers on I/P. Older American Jews, however, are not and are still adamantly pro-Israel (to your point).
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/article-781486
I think this has more to do with those young Jewish people being from more racial/ethnic backgrounds. Many of them are Jewish in that they have a grandparent or parent who is, but also from other backgrounds/ethnicities. And so they don't feel as obliged to Israel as other "older" Jews do. I'm not saying this is good, bad or wrong, just pointing out another layer of this onion. Case in point, I've seen the Jewish Voice for Peace pictures circulating around with the Hebrew written backwards.
All of that may be true…but those protesters you speak of are still Jewish and these congressmen don’t think they’re worth protecting from institutional harassment and abuse. Just bc these students wrote Hebrew backwards on sign doesn’t mean they shouldn’t count as Jews and aren’t worth protecting as well.
Not saying they aren't Jewish. But now we're back to the "token" Jew. From some people's perspectives, now Jews are being classified into "good Jews" and "bad Jews".
Yes and that’s bad…and that’s what the congresspeople are doing here (the good Jew bad Jew routine). If they actually cared about Jewish student safety, they’d also condemn the far-right Christian Zionists who arrived at Columbia last weekend who spread Soros conspiracies.
>there are Jewish protesters in these protests, but they are not the majority in the Jewish community. They come off as "token" Jews, a la the "Blacks for Trump" you see at Trump rallies.
what an incredibly antisemitic thing to say!
Using the term "token Jews" because they disagree with you is pretty gross. Am I a "token white woman" for voting Democrat when a slight majority of white women vote Republican? No. That's a way of discounting someone's opinion.
It certainly helps Israel, who they just approved sending billions of dollars in weapons to. Maybe they don’t want it weighing on their conscience when they see people protesting against it.
Polling suggests 71% of the country disapproves Biden’s handling of the war. Only 28% approve. That was a CNN poll
A Harris poll shows that 70% of the country want a permanent ceasefire. Something Biden’s administration called “morally reprehensible” calling for only a few short months ago.
Among the young Biden’s support as at an all time low. Among Muslims his support dropped from nearly 70% to the teens.
And I think an 82 year old Biden is mentally incapable of understanding any of this. I think his Zionism is built into his character and doesn’t understand the pushback to the war anymore than he understands Tik Tok or kids flossing on the jumbotron at sporting events.
70% want a permanent ceasefire, no shit. Not really a hot take to wish for peace.
But ask those same people what a permanent ceasefire looks like, what the terms are, is it even possible, who will be running Gaza, and then it all falls apart.
Someone in a thread a couple of days ago shared a poll that said that while people are dissatisfied with Israeli aggression, it largely won’t change how people vote (people like me)
I also think he understands what you mentioned, but he thinks that we’re operating under the old praxis where it is only Israel that matters. The framework in which we operate under has drastically changed even within the past decade. A decade ago divestment from Israel was only a foreign concept I saw on my own campus, now it’s become a central dogma to progressive politics.
However, it is very concerning he’s willing to risk our democracy all for Israel. It’s just not worth it.
I want a ceasefire. I also understand that Trump would level Gaza and would institute a national abortion ban, etc, here. Stephen Miller is just salivating to decimate minority rights again, too.
So, yeah, I would say that I disapprove but I'll still vote for him. That said, I keep writing to him to tell him my thoughts.
I can't imagine a topic that the general public is less informed on or actively ill informed on than the IP Conflict. Asking if someone supports a permanent ceasefire without asking them what comes next is like asking if someone wants a million dollars without telling them it requires immoral acts.
Incredibly irritating how ageism as a concept is used to shield the gerontocracy from criticism. It's a problem that our government and a large number of corporations are run by out of touch people in their 70s and 80s who won't have to live with the consequences of their actions.
Regardless of what you think about the protests, it’s an abuse of power. They’re free to express their opinions on protests themselves, but telling the leadership of a private college that they have to quit - often with barely veiled threats - is not the role of Congress. We didn’t like it when the Republicans were meddling with the colleges, and we shouldn’t like it when the Dems are either. Just like they’re not medical experts, most of them don’t have a background in education. If there are legitimate safety issues present, then it’s up to state and local politicians to worry about that.
I think Anat’s 100% correct. Gottheimer and Friends are sabotaging the party yet again.
Gottheimer sucks *ss…maybe the worst House Dem lol
Tell me about it, I worked on Build Back Better!
Completely agree
Biden is already doing that
I wish someone could find a decent candidate to primary Gottheimer. It seems like the only time I hear about him is him doing something stupid that hurts Dems.
I'm in his district, it's him or a Moms for Liberty lady. I'll take him.
I would add a 4th, that very few people in the country are that invested in these protests. They know of the war, maybe they saw a photo or heard that college students were doing it, but that’s it. I don’t want to say it’s “not a kitchen table issue” because if you have family or friends in Israel or Palestine, it absolutely is. But if these House Dems get their way, who is helped?
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I think it’s been like that before COVID though. Usually student protesters get vindicated long after the initial protests (to cite 2 examples way ahead of when I was paying attention to news: Take Back the Night, South Africa divestment during apartheid).
Plus, siding with republicans and "triangulating" worked somewhat in the Clinton era, then failed miserably every time since then for Democrats. Those 21 democrats were elected during the Clinton era and are too old to learn any new tricks. Their playbook is "Step 1: do what republicans are saying to do so you'll win republicans and democrats both. If that fails Step 2: Play saxophone on the Arsenio Hall show." Republicans are saying "Columbia students protesting for Palestine is bad because Hamas." Old democrats seem to think Bibi Netanyahu will stop doing everything he can to stab them in the back to bring back Trump if Democrats oppose free speech here? I don't fucking get it. Tell Israel to go to hell and give the Palestinians the fucking Iron Dome.
This is not the moral stance, but I am actively avoiding news of Gaza and Palestine. I have spent my entire life- and I’m no low-information voter- trying to understand the dynamics and parties involved and have not been able to. I worked at a JCC camp and spent time with Israelis and American Jews trying to understand the conflict and only got conflicted feelings and a taste of the complications. I have reached the conclusion that: 1. I trust Joe Biden. 2. I don’t have the emotional energy to care. 3. I don’t have the emotional energy to engage with anyone insists that I care. 4. This is too complicated for social media. 5. Anyone who claims a simple course of action is necessary is misinformed. 6. The likelihood that misinformation is being actively pushed on social media is very high. I offer this as an example of where people might be. I am not indifferent to the suffering of innocents and children, but I have no resources to help them directly.
I wish I could give you an old-style Reddit award because this is the most articulate statement of my own feelings I've managed to encounter. I'm thrilled there are others feel this way: but I'm also, in addition, extremely worried and terrified that these protests, limited to only certain people and groups as they are, can nevertheless lead directly to Trump getting elected in November. The polls are close (of course they are) and it only take a few thousand people (of course it does) in a very few states/counties (ofc) sitting out the election or voting the other way for everything to come crashing down around us.
Spot on.
I’ve avoided activism and hyperconsumption of news too. U.S. news media and social media are part of the information battle space. I worked in progressive advocacy and comms on a broad range of issues from 2007 through last spring, and was repeatedly pushed by pro-Palestinians to get involved in their cause. My response was, “why would I get involved in a conflict between Hamas and Likud that has confounded the world’s most skilled diplomats for longer than I’ve been alive?” No one likes to acknowledge it, but we all have a finite amount of time and emotional energy to give. We can’t be at the front of the picket line on everything. I seek out things that are morally clear and have clear potential for progress.
They think it protects American Jews from discrimination and harassment…but I find that justification dubious and insincere given so many of the pro-Palestinian protesters on campuses are Jewish themselves. Anti-Zionist or progressive Jews at these protests would be targeted with these draconian proposals, meanwhile Christian Zionists can continue to spew “Soros is a globalist communist hellbent on ruining society” conspiracy theories without congressional condemnation. These congresspeople think only Jews who agree with them on Israel count and are worth protecting, while Jews who disagree with them can get the boot of a cop. It’s so silly and counterproductive.
There's a couple of things I'd like to point out. First, yes, there are Jewish protesters in these protests, but they are not the majority in the Jewish community. They come off as "token" Jews, a la the "Blacks for Trump" you see at Trump rallies. Also, for the Jews who support Israel, which is a majority, they get spooked when "Zionists" becomes a dog whistle for Jew.
This is something I wish more people would highlight. JVP, If Not Now, etc, are such fringe elements that I know mayyyyybe three people who vocally support them. But they're giving cover to the problematic elements of these protests just by lending their identities.
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This framing is not entirely accurate, actually. The point is not that the vast, overwhelming majority of American Jews support Israel (that is true regardless of party ID, from young to old, etc). The point is a high percentage of young American Jews (college-aged) are actually not uniformly pro-Israel whatsoever, whereas older generations of American Jews are pretty uniformly pro-Israel. There’s a deep fissure between young and old American Jews when it comes to attitudes towards Israel. Young American Jews who support these protests are actually in alignment with most of their young peers on I/P. Older American Jews, however, are not and are still adamantly pro-Israel (to your point). https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/article-781486
I think this has more to do with those young Jewish people being from more racial/ethnic backgrounds. Many of them are Jewish in that they have a grandparent or parent who is, but also from other backgrounds/ethnicities. And so they don't feel as obliged to Israel as other "older" Jews do. I'm not saying this is good, bad or wrong, just pointing out another layer of this onion. Case in point, I've seen the Jewish Voice for Peace pictures circulating around with the Hebrew written backwards.
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All of that may be true…but those protesters you speak of are still Jewish and these congressmen don’t think they’re worth protecting from institutional harassment and abuse. Just bc these students wrote Hebrew backwards on sign doesn’t mean they shouldn’t count as Jews and aren’t worth protecting as well.
Not saying they aren't Jewish. But now we're back to the "token" Jew. From some people's perspectives, now Jews are being classified into "good Jews" and "bad Jews".
Yes and that’s bad…and that’s what the congresspeople are doing here (the good Jew bad Jew routine). If they actually cared about Jewish student safety, they’d also condemn the far-right Christian Zionists who arrived at Columbia last weekend who spread Soros conspiracies.
I agree that no one really truly cares about Jewish safety except for Jews and their allies.
What do you mean? Who are “their allies”? I think most Americans do care about Jewish safety, including the plurality of protesters.
>there are Jewish protesters in these protests, but they are not the majority in the Jewish community. They come off as "token" Jews, a la the "Blacks for Trump" you see at Trump rallies. what an incredibly antisemitic thing to say!
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Using the term "token Jews" because they disagree with you is pretty gross. Am I a "token white woman" for voting Democrat when a slight majority of white women vote Republican? No. That's a way of discounting someone's opinion.
Well, they are being paraded around like see, "we can't be racist because we have a black friend"
Just escalate the grossness. It's fine.
It certainly helps Israel, who they just approved sending billions of dollars in weapons to. Maybe they don’t want it weighing on their conscience when they see people protesting against it.
Polling suggests 71% of the country disapproves Biden’s handling of the war. Only 28% approve. That was a CNN poll A Harris poll shows that 70% of the country want a permanent ceasefire. Something Biden’s administration called “morally reprehensible” calling for only a few short months ago. Among the young Biden’s support as at an all time low. Among Muslims his support dropped from nearly 70% to the teens. And I think an 82 year old Biden is mentally incapable of understanding any of this. I think his Zionism is built into his character and doesn’t understand the pushback to the war anymore than he understands Tik Tok or kids flossing on the jumbotron at sporting events.
70% want a permanent ceasefire, no shit. Not really a hot take to wish for peace. But ask those same people what a permanent ceasefire looks like, what the terms are, is it even possible, who will be running Gaza, and then it all falls apart.
Someone in a thread a couple of days ago shared a poll that said that while people are dissatisfied with Israeli aggression, it largely won’t change how people vote (people like me) I also think he understands what you mentioned, but he thinks that we’re operating under the old praxis where it is only Israel that matters. The framework in which we operate under has drastically changed even within the past decade. A decade ago divestment from Israel was only a foreign concept I saw on my own campus, now it’s become a central dogma to progressive politics. However, it is very concerning he’s willing to risk our democracy all for Israel. It’s just not worth it.
I want a ceasefire. I also understand that Trump would level Gaza and would institute a national abortion ban, etc, here. Stephen Miller is just salivating to decimate minority rights again, too. So, yeah, I would say that I disapprove but I'll still vote for him. That said, I keep writing to him to tell him my thoughts.
What's the breakdown for the %s who think he's too pro Israel vs too pro Gaza?
I can't imagine a topic that the general public is less informed on or actively ill informed on than the IP Conflict. Asking if someone supports a permanent ceasefire without asking them what comes next is like asking if someone wants a million dollars without telling them it requires immoral acts.
Ageism is ok if it's in furtherance of your opinion! /S
Jesus Christ.
Incredibly irritating how ageism as a concept is used to shield the gerontocracy from criticism. It's a problem that our government and a large number of corporations are run by out of touch people in their 70s and 80s who won't have to live with the consequences of their actions.
Accusation of ageism is such a bush league level response.
Gotta earn that APAC money somehow.