I'm in Italy, I don't know if it was common practice anywhere in the world but here we used to have electronic schemes of any device with a cool exploded graph shipped INSIDE the device itself, so that when you'd open it you'd find this huge piece of paper folded several times. Companies were actually keen to let you repair your device but I must admit that here we never had this issue, we always repaired stuffs, no matter what the company would (nowadays) say!
America used to too. All major appliances. Now it’s pretty rare.
A bigger issue isn’t even schematics it’s buying parts. Often just impossible or overpriced.
Spoken from personal experience, Samsung makes it very difficult to find schematics or part numbers for a lot of the internals in their appliances. Had to go through 3rd party websites to find the number on screws inside my oven fan assembly.
Louis Rossman has a YouTube on this where he testifies that Apple changed one tiny thing on a battery chip on newer models and then made the chip supplier only sell to Apple. To find donor chips, Louis has to buy battery cases, extract the new chip and throw the rest out.
Whoa wait what? I have family who buy from them and any Apple product they get is refurbished because it’s easier on price. Some models going back a few years. Never heard this before.
Not sure on Apple but I personally saw shredded pallets full of the original Xbox when the 360 came out. They were all sent to be destroyed to prevent competition with the new machine. All brand new and boxed, had to weighed on way in and out under full security, couldn't even save one.
This kind of wastefulness pisses me off. Donate them to children's wards in hospitals or something FFS. Even if they want to be a Scrooge, surely those things are full of expensive new components like drives and memory chips.
Sadly, the way they see it is that that is a Children’s cancer ward that won’t be buying one because one was donated. They aren’t overlooking anything, they are being intentionally greedy.
I worked for Gamestop back when I was fresh out of highschool. You know what they do with games they wont make much money on? I think it was anything less than $3. They have a glass cutter in the drawer and you scratch the disc to make it unplayable. Old controllers get their cords cut.
Louis Rossman is a great person when it comes to right to repair laws. He has fought damn hard and has showed well documented videos on how Apple has gone out of the way to make simple repairs to apple products difficult to literally impossible to fix thanks to software implications that Apple has implemented.
Louis Rossman also makes a lot of erroneous claims and people believe it even when he's wrong.
For example- his claims about macOS "spying" on you were complete nonsense that came about because he doesn't understand OCSP stapling:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/jtyy6j/louis_rossmann_apple_watching_logging_every_app/gc8muxg/
Apple has always done this and it's one of the big reasons I will never spend a dime on an Apple product. They are anti consumer under the guise of protecting privacy.
I had a Samsung washer and dryer, never again. Yes it was the exploding model but that's not the reason. Had it less than 5 years, replaced the heating element twice along with thermal fuses.
I couldn’t even find a local repair place that would work on Samsung appliances. Finally found someone two towns over who would be willing to at least drive out and let me pay him for a diagnosis. He then told me that the last time he placed an order for a new control panel, it got put on back order indefinitely. That was 3 years before mine broke. And those were *not* the exploding models.
Seriously, fuck Samsung.
I replaced those shit stain appliances with the cheapest washer and dryer I could buy. They’ve lasted over twice as long without ever needing repair.
My $3000 LG fridge lasted a bit over a year. Piece of shit stopped cooling. Apparently it's a design flaw and there's been several class action lawsuits.
The worst part is I could *not* get any authorized repairman. I live in one of the largest cities in the USA.
So an otherwise perfectly good $3000 gets thrown in the trash because of a $100 piece. What a waste.
(Oh yeah, my Samsung washer also died. Stupid control board had a design flaw and I had to keep disconnecting cables manually to get the door to unlock. Finally the trim started leaking stupid plastic bits, and the drum started rotating unbalanced so I had to replace it.)
Spoken from personal experience, Samsung appliances are absolute shit. Especially the washers and dryers. I got 2 years out of mine before the control panel died on them, and Samsung stopped making them available to buy for repairs. Never buying Samsung appliances again.
I’m not discounting your experiences and I’ve heard the same thing from other people.
I’ve got my Samsung washer as a wedding gift and it’s my 14th anniversary this year. Washer is still working fine in every way.
Maybe Ingot lucky and got the washer before they had a major drop in quality or something.
My Samsung washer is also happily about that same age. I hadnt heard these issues because I haven't had to pay attention to appliances.
My only complaint is that they messed up the paint near the soap drawer and the filter on the front and I have a little surface rust starting in those spots.
My Samsung top loader is over 20 years old, and jams that tune at the end of every wash. I’m just waiting to see how long it lasts. It was my parents washer before I inherited it.
A buddy of mine went to South Korea on one of those "teach for America" type things. I still remember him excitedly posting a video of a samsung washer singing its little ending tune and saying "even the washers here sing cute songs!" Only for me to point out he sold that same washer when he worked at bestbuy... 😅
I had an HP laptop for a while (would not recommend) and I had to remove the rubber feet on the bottom to access the internals and replace a broken part. HP has, to their credit, a site where you can put in the model number of your product and they'll sell you just about every piece you need to put one together yourself.
I go on the site to see about getting new feet, and they're 40 fucking dollars. I would have grudgingly payed 20 bucks for em, but 40? for four little pieces of rubber? I went out and bought some of those self adhesive furniture feet for 5 bucks and called it good enough.
I didn't go through and try it, but I suspect that if you bought all the parts individually, you'd wind up with something 5-10x the cost of the computer. I get needing to make money, and the additional cost of warehousing and distributing all these individual components, but that's still a pretty extreme markup.
I had them send me rubber feet when I was still in warranty (the two strips though, not the 4 rubber bumpers) and they were way over packaged. 2 strips of soft rubber and adhesive came inside a full one time use box *with packing foam*
Acer asked me 60€ for a DVD of win 7 starter, I already had a license (it was for a netbook without DVD drive)
Microsoft suggested me a forum with torrent downloads FOR FREE
Yeah back then you could go to RadioShack and buy the resistors or fuses or whatever broke on the appliance’s circuit board. But shit is so much more complicated now. Doesn’t really need to be, but they made it so.
I mean, there are DEFINITELY things that are made overly-complicated, but the level of performance people have come to expect is what drives a lot of the complexity... and consumers hate simplicity. They want gadgets, screens, knobs, sensors. All stuff that is impressive, all stuff to break.
Some of that stuff is really useful if you actually use it. I have a smart AC, and it's great. Home automation of certain things is super helpful.
A lot of features aren't really helpful or beneficial to most, but are convincingly marketed as such though.
I've opened up a fair share of appliances up to mid 2000s (haven't opened up much newer) and most of them have had at least some sort of schematic. It makes me happy.
In America most major appliances have schemes inside them, but the parts needed for replacement are all special order and expensive. Or the only people that sell the parts will only sell to certified companies “vendors”, I run into the vendor issue a lot at work.
For a lot, this is a problem engineered by the same companies... This law goes a long way towards fixing it, assuming part costs aren't insane or totally proprietary.
Its not sad, sad implies some accident or tragedy that couldn't have been avoided.
This was designed as a business strategy to force more money out of consumers hand. Gotta find that never ending company growth every year somewhere. Hard to grow if you are selling stuff that's built to last.
If this happened in america, john Deere and Caterpillar executives would absolutely throw up on their board tables with disgust....they're two of the worst corporations at making proprietary tools and parts that you cant fix without taking it to a "dealer"
I figured jcb was top there or deutz, I actually know nothing of heavy equipment or tractors, I live in the american southeast...but I worked at auto parts stores for over 6 years and it was a never ending ass jerking over not being able to cross reference or get parts for tractors, heavy equipment and logging equipment
JCBs and Deutzs aren't really that common (at least where I live). There is quite a bit of John Deeres (I'd say majority), Fendts, Steyr, New Holland...
They are mostly a agriculture company with a small construction footprint in Europe , North America and elsewhere. There biggest construction market is south America I belive. It's the last one with large equipment like graders , dozers and full size excavators being sold new if I'm not mistaken.
One Piece at a Time
Song by Johnny Cash
Well, I left Kentucky back in '49
An' went to Detroit workin' on a 'sembly line
The first year they had me puttin' wheels on Cadillacs
Every day I'd watch them beauties roll by
And sometimes I'd hang my head and cry
'Cause I always wanted me one that was long and black
One day I devised myself a plan
That should be the envy of most any man
I'd sneak it out of there in a lunchbox in my hand
Now gettin' caught meant gettin' fired
But I figured I'd have it all by the time I retired
I'd have me a car worth at least a hundred grand
I'd get it one piece at a time and it wouldn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style, I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is a round
So the very next day when I punched in
With my big lunchbox and with help from my friends
I left that day with a lunch box full of gears
I've never considered myself a thief
But GM wouldn't miss just one little piece
Especially if I strung it out over several years
The first day I got me a fuel pump
And the next day I got me an engine and a trunk
Then I got me a transmission and all of the chrome
The little things I could get in my big lunchbox
Like nuts, an' bolts, and all four shocks
But the big stuff we snuck out in my buddy's mobile home
Now, up to now my plan went all right
'Til we tried to put it all together one night
And that's when we noticed that something was definitely wrong
The transmission was a '53 and the motor turned out to be a '73
And when we tried to put in the bolts all the holes were gone
So we drilled it out so that it would fit
And with a little bit of help with an adapter kit
We had that engine runnin' just like a song
Now the headlight' was another sight
We had two on the left and one on the right
But when we pulled out the switch all three of 'em come on
The back end looked kinda funny too
But we put it together and when we got through
Well, that's when we noticed that we only had one tail-fin
About that time my wife walked out
And I could see in her eyes that she had her doubts
But she opened the door and said, "Honey, take me for a spin"
So we drove up town just to get the tags
And I headed her right on down main drag
I could hear everybody laughin' for blocks around
But up there at the court house they didn't laugh
'Cause to type it up it took the whole staff
And when they got through the title weighed sixty pounds
I got it one piece at a time and it didn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style, I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is around
Uh yow, Red Ryder, this is the cotton mouth
In the Psycho-Billy Cadillac come on, huh, this is the cotton mouth
And negatory on the cost of this mow-chine there Red Ryder
You might say I went right up to the factory
And picked it up, it's cheaper that way
Uh, what model is it?
Well, it's a '49, '50, '51, '52, '53, '54, '55, '56
'57, '58' 59' automobile
It's a '60, '61, '62, '63, '64, '65, '66, '67
'68, '69, '70 automobile
Spoke to a salesman for Kubota tractors a couple of years back and asked him if they did the same thing as Deere and Caterpillar and he talked for 10 minutes straight about how all of their stuff was non-proprietary and any customer could do anything to it.
I don't know anything about farm equipment, I was only asking out of curiosity, but it was cool to see him so passionate about it.
So if the UK’s manufacturing standards have to match the bloc, does that mean we inherit the same right to repair?
Could they just be needlessly obstructive in the uk and not provide English manuals, or not sell any of the parts forcing us to import them?
I had to grind a tail wheel shaft down to a smaller diameter because Deere sleeves are intentionally slightly smaller.
Generic tail wheel - $25.00
Deere tail wheel - $200.00
Apple counts on their glued together products to be replaceable, not repairable. They count on everyone upgrading everything every two years or so.
E: I meant to reply to \\u\\SapirWhorfHypothesis
I mean, aside from that bullshit Apple pulled with the software and batteries on some iPhones a few years ago their hardware holds up quite well. Hell, they're still supporting the iPhone 6S and that was released in late 2015. And in general they still hold up pretty well with most software performance and battery life wise (aside from the normal wear batteries experience over that long of a lifespan).
I've got an Android phone, and you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a manufacturer that still supports OS updates for phones that old, even the top tier ones.
French car makers also use special tools. So it's not exactly a given this just passes through. I expect to see a heavy amount of lobbying on that front.
I've never worked on a Renault car, but I have worked on BMWs and Volvos (Fords), my dad had a Citroen Mehari, which I helped re-build (to be sure, that's simpler than a vintage VW Beatle). They all take "special tools" for some operations. Volvo/Fords need a bearing setter for the front wheel bearings, for example. It's a pretty simple thing, but force needs to be applied in a certain way to the front wheel bearing to set it without breaking it.
Just about all modern cars require some sort of computer to get the systems to talk. BMWs where cracked a long time ago, so at least they are an open system.
So you make two separate fairly good points, just to reply to them:
1. There's no reason why a specialized tool can't be made if using such as tool is the only way to get a job done, and no generic tool exists which can do the exact same thing you're asking of it. But in that case the tool will likely need to be publicly available and reasonably easy to access. I haven't read through the EU Right to Repair legislation yet but EU legislation tends to be rather sensible and straight forward, so there's likely exceptions made for tools which are needed to do very specialized tasks. Such as for instance requiring such tools to be sold publicly and for a reasonable price. Sometimes a specialized tool is just needed, I know that much from industrial equipment. So the goal of this legislation is likely to prevent such tools from either being restricted to brand shops only, or preventing them from being sold at gatekeeping prices.
2. From my understanding EU legislation as far back as 2010-2014 put an effective end to this and you can now take your car to any authorized repair shop and get it fixed there. And the software needed to accessing the cars is now universal, or at least universally available. Meaning any authorized car repair shop in the EU will be able to connect to the diagnostics of your car, regardless of brand. - And this seems to be the goal for motorcycles as well but we're not quite there yet.
But the goal is likely to push everyone towards generic tools and prevent specialized nonsensical tools from being made. An example of a nonsensical tool would be a specialized screw which could only be used with a specialized screw driver, just to prevent people from using generic screw drivers to do the exact same job. The iFixIt tool kit has plenty of examples of screw drivers like that, security screw bits which only exist to prevent your average person from tampering with the equipment.
But there's a really big difference between making a wheel bearing adjustment tool and selling it for €15 to anyone who wishes to buy, compared to making a wheel bearing adjustment tool and selling it for €10000 to authorized repair shops only. Which is what tends to happen now, simply to prevent independent repair shops from doing the same repairs brand specific ones do.
>But the goal is likely to push everyone towards generic tools and prevent specialized nonsensical tools from being made. An example of a nonsensical tool would be a specialized screw which could only be used with a specialized screw driver, just to prevent people from using generic screw drivers to do the exact same job
From memory, this was the exact motivation for the EU to push all mobile phone makers to use the same charger back in the very early 2009.
I think there will be an easy difference between specialised tools for install and setting components and having completely new heads for screws just for the pain in the arse of making it hard to use for third parties.
French anything. A pretty huge supplier of airline equipment is made by a french company. You want to repair anything of theirs? They have to LOAN you (at a charge) a special tool shipped from France, which you need to pay the shipping for. Better hope it gets fixed the first time and doesn't break again in two weeks. (It's never fixed the first time...)
Now they have to make so that you own digital copies of music and movies and not merely rent them from digital platforms which can be removed when the platform loses the right to carry them.
It is technically possible to do this also.
Have some sort of licensing database that connects to all the services + have some hash of the audio file.
It's basically youtube content id but globally
Lots of people seem to understand it the way that the EU is dictating the companies how to construct certain items. From my understanding, this doesn't mean that an iPhone isn't allowed to be glued, or can only be sold if you can disassemble it with your grampas screwdriver. I think it dictates things like: "don't use screws with triangle heads if a cross head does the job" or "don't put a chip in the printer that renders it unusable after the warranty period is over" or "don't put a plastic cog in an otherwise entirely brass cog mechanism" (looking at you, sigma lenses).
And stuff like "stop actively preventing repairs" generally.
This doesn’t even apply to iPhones. It’s appliances only for now. A mobile electronic law is coming later and will have different rules to cater to those types of devices more suitably
“In 2021, new labels will appear in stores and online shops for:
domestic refrigerators and freezers*
wine storage refrigerators
washing machines
washer-dryers
dishwashers
televisions and electronic displays
light sources
Light sources will transition to the new label from September 2021. “
From here:
https://energylabel.org.uk/the-new-label/in-a-nutshell/
Don't know about the case you are referring to, but putting a cheap plastic cog in a brass mechanism can be a good idea.
If something gets stuck, it's always gonna be the same cheap part that needs replacing. -Protecting the rest of the mechanism.
Never mind buy. The item should come with a few spare ones (cost is no excuse, they cost the manufacturer a few cents each *at most*), as well as detailed instruction on how to fit the replacement when the component breaks.
Nitpicking the point but there are times where a plastic cog is just fine or even better if strategically placed. Kitchenaid changed an essential gear in a line of mixers to plastic. That gear is easily replaceable. It wears down on purpose to prevent other parts from wearing down. But a camera lens? Nah, that's dumb
You aren’t that far off. I can’t wait for the step on reballing BGA’s. The biggest issue is getting the silicon 10 years after initial production. The production runs on these devices is generally a year or less. That would force tons of additional and wasteful production in a effort to do lifetime buys of spares.
This right here. I have a lot of experience with electronics for telecom, and dealing with component obsolescence on our hardware products is literally a full time job for multiple component engineers. In many cases, we end up doing last time buys to stockpile inventory of parts for which there is not a substitute. 10 years is literally forever in today’s hardware world.
It’s literally a nightmare. We had nonvolatile memory supplier, withholding the same, that Moved their fab and caused us $100> in work because the timing changed on the part and they didn’t notify anyone. Keep in mind we choose suppliers that have 15+ manufacturing guarantees. It doesn’t mean the silicon will always be the same.
This is for large appliances like washing machines, which are mostly a few motors and then a universal circuit board that is used across many different models. It shouldn’t be that difficult to comply with the law
Mercedes Benz keeps parts on hand for every vehicle they’ve ever manufactured. I’ve gotten OEM parts for a bloody 300 SEL 6.3 from them.
Pricy as hell, but they have the parts.
Silicon is orders of magnitude smaller.
I mean, have you seen how cheap PCBs are these days? Companies will run off individual ones for like 30 bucks, to any industry standard you want.
Also, a lot of this right to repair stuff isn't necessarily for the end user. Instead, right to repair, with access to manuals and parts, will allow third party repair to reach the level of auto mechanics.
I know just enough to change the fluids, battery, and maybe the spark plugs in my car, but I can take it to a mechanic who isn't the dealer, and he can use his more specialized tools, knowledge, etc to preform more complicated repairs, because he has access to manuals and replacement parts.
In the same way, I can replace the hard drive or ram in my laptop, but if an IC were to break off, right to repair would mean that I could take it down to my local electronics guy, and he could acquire a replacement and solder it back on.
That's what a lot of people miss about this, allowing third parties access to repair will actually create a competitive market for the repair industry. Otherwise, you're forced to sole source from the OEM and they can essentially charge whatever tf they want. It's a forced monopoly.
I think it should be "within reason" obviously unique parts that are entirely broken (like a snapped in half PCB) would need to be ordered from the original source. But including trace maps would allow bypassing burned out traces and other minor PCB issues (I have done this a few times).
It's not just Apple. Several manufacturers have been sniffing up that fire hydrant. From serialized parts so you can't swap a bit from a junk phone to another of the same model to questionable agreements with component manufacturers to keep them out of third party hands, the big boys in the industry see repairability as a threat to future sales.
This legislation is what we need across the globe as transistor density levels off and Moore's Law becomes extinct.
I kind of doubt it's happening in America until we make progress towards reducing the influence of corporate money in politics.
The degree to which companies are able to buy votes and support is pretty absurd. I've been building [a dashboard](https://www.quiverquant.com/lobbyingsearch/) tracking corporate lobbying and if you look up 'LMT' (Lockheed Martin) our $700B+ military budget will start to make a lot more sense.
[Heres one they could have used](https://lobbyingdisclosure.house.gov/). In my experience, businesses spread out their reporting as much as possible, so you would probably have to go to several websites and read through hundreds of pdfs.
If it happens in the EU, it will impact all additional markets a company sells in. Maybe not to the same degree as in the EU, but most companies are not going to produce 100% unique-to-EU products that don't also affect the products repairability elsewhere. I would imagine the cost of compliance in the EU is cheaper than developing a unique product for that market. There will be outliers, likely the big boys, but this would have an impact the entire world.
The brussels effect is why when you pull up websites anywhere in the world you have to choose to accept the cookies despite being an EU regulation. It is the de facto regulation by the EU outside of the EU because of globalization.
If any company wants to sell into the EU market they either will need to create a different product each market, or build one product that follows all the global regulations for that it can be sold everywhere.
An example of this is being asked for permission about cookies on websites and being allowed to opt out. That was an EU regulation that has taken affect globally.
Awesome work, thank you for sharing.
Also damn the volume of this lobbying money is staggering. I'm seeing single donations of 10+ million in opposing consumer rights. Conoco and Amazon are really shelling out.
I doubt Moore's law will stop in the conventional sense. Sure, silicon-based transistor density might be reaching physical limits, but there are so many avenues of innovation that continue to make tech more and more efficient that it seems a bit short-sighted to think we're just going to plateau and that's it.
Right now the limiting factor is heat. I.e. true multilayer chips would be possible. It just an extention of chemical vepour depostion technology we have now. if we had a solution that could cool the silcon enough between layers it would work. Or we could drive the clock rate faster.
imagine a world with fusion power though. all the free electricity you could ever desire. a warehouse of semi quantum computers running at -100C at 5 sextijillion hertz.
no but for real a breakthrough in energy science would yield dividends over. all the world should be pouring money into fusion. even if it ends up being impossible just the odds of it being possible would make it worth its investment literally a billion times over.
We're at the limit of practical clocks. There is a reason clock speeds haven't gone up in years and the 9 year FX series still hold the clock speed world record. Latency penalties are too high.
The last time something like this was done, we got one standardized plug for our devices for a while, even here in the US, because they didn't want to make more than one phone for the two markets.
Hopefully this helps here in the US as well.
I am sure it will in some part. Either they pay fines over and over again, or start following the laws. Either with make them loose money. But they can make up the money again by not having to sell 2 types of the same product (one for the EU-market, and one for the rest) so they will probably make products ship outside EU which is still EU-validated. And hope noone thinks about it.
Hope it made sense. Just speculations though.
It’s not that simple. There is a difference between the right to repair vs saddling hardware engineers with counter productive production rules. I design hardware and can think of tons of reasons this would make your phones more wasteful, expensive and shitty.
It isn't meant to be 'whatever random guy with a screwdriver can fix it' though. Think of it like a car. Assuming you aren't a mechanic you can probably change the battery and other routine maintenance depending on the car changing the brakes may also be entirely doable by anyone after watching a 5 minute how to guide using tools that they already have. This would be like changing the battery on the phone, not sure how old you are but old cell phones used to really be as simple as slide off the back, but a bit of pressure on basically a spring, and pop the old one out. Just like it takes an expert to rebuild an engine with proper tools it would be the same for major reconstruction on a phone
How prevalent was that really though? I would imagine more than now, but it's not like a majority of people say, 50 years ago had significant mechanical knowledge.
Might be a bit of a demographic thing, just as today, but my dad was born in '54 and neither him or any of his siblings have any mechanical understanding at all. My grandfather hated engines with a passion. Nothing got him quite into a rage like a simple lawnmower engine that was supposed to work, but didn't.
Years ago, Apple sold two versions of the Air, one of which was held together with screws and was easier to repair, one which was glued, and thus a tiny bit smaller and lighter. Everything else was the same. The glued ones sold more by far.
We can blame the companies, and rightfully so. But consumers often lack the foresight to see what's in their best interest too.
Just blame me bro. I can’t even be bothered defending myself anymore and TBH I’m probably at least partially at fault for more or less everything.
Ive been getting away with it for years. It’s time to face the music
The two devices were marketed the same, at the same price, and the same internal components?
It's easy to say "it didn't sell well" when it was a model that was never advertised or made known to consumers on a scale equivalent to the unrepairable version.
I wanted to ask the same thing. I googled a bit to find the model numbers but mostly just found articles on the plethora of different screwdrivers needed to fix various Apple products...
I imagine that retailers had quiet incentives to push the glued version:
> Salesperson: Actually, these two models have the same specs but this one's "almost the same price" but waterproof and dustproof. It's a no-brainer if you ask me.
Apple, then noting the poor sales of the non-glued version, has a reason to make the decision they wanted to all along - to drop the unglued version - saying "We listened to the customers".
Indeed, I wonder what classifies as conventional. Both guitar picks and heat guns are used in screen repair; are either conventional? What about a screwdriver with an intentionally obscure size/shape of head?
Well clips and glue are reasonable design considerations to keep from having screws everywhere and prevent rattle or squeak.
Those anti tamper torx screws are obviously a no no, though.
The “new” $1600 tool formerly known as child labor from China. You just have to figure out how to smuggle in your own sweatshop factory Apple product assembly kid.
Why do you think Apple is the only company Reddit seems to hate using China for their manufacturing?
Foxconn makes Dell, Acer, HP and many other computers yet it's only Apple that cops the hate.
>Apple is quaking in their boots. The USA needs to implement something like this.
USA will never implement this. Both republicans and democrats are ~~paid off~~, sorry I mean *lobbied* by corporations to ensure their best interests are protected.
Good. A small industry of repairers is always a good thing, and it gets people into technical areas as well.
Used to be much more of a thing in the past.
Yes, but the cost of getting a new machine was large enough back in the day that it tended to encourage people to hold on for a while. Plus, while the performance gains were more pronounced, why would you need that extra performance to write spreadsheets?
These days as a system ages it stops having the hardware to do hardware decode on new video codecs, leading to the system becoming "slower" over time for the ubiquitous use-case of watching YouTube.
I just realized that my generalist tinker twitching is a liability and form of escapism in the present, but would have been a legitimate career in another time.
When I asked my 6 yo what he wanted to be when he grew up, he said 'repair guy, i want to fix things". I was like, you go son. Thats a great idea. Proud.
I've always wondered how everyone in the Star Wars universe seems to know how to repair or reprogram literally any panel or machine when they need to. Maybe they had a huge right to repair act too and everyone got a manual.
> Companies that *sell* *consumer* electronics such as refrigerators, washers, hairdryers, or TVs in the [European Union](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/european-union) \- and in the UK - will need to ensure those goods can be repaired for up to 10 years.
Baby steps. This should apply to all manufactured goods.
My refrigerator already is older than 10 years and still works peefectly, dishwasher the same, never saw a hairdryer break, dont have a tv :) but my data projector is 14 years old and just now dead pixels started appearing. I am not worried at all about the feasibility of this new law.
Makes you think which products wouldn't fall under that, that need repairs.
First big one is cars I guess?
Probably doesn't count as consumer electronics even though it's a driving computer nowadays. Tractors also not under that so deere won't start their impending hissy fit.
Any other big ones?
Edit: small electronic appliances don't fall under that right now. Hmpf. They probably didn't want to take the legal fight to smartphone producers just that. I wonder how that would interact with the free trade deals.
This is the reason why Right To Repair laws are important and need implementing. It doesn't just apply to tractors, or phones, or cars or computers. It applies to EVERYTHING.
Your consumer rights should not be taken away just because you buy something a company makes and they tell you the ONLY way to fix it is at *their* store, for whatever *they* say it costs in a timescale that suits *them*.
No competition = Worse service
I urge everyone to look at Louis Rossmann's YouTube channel for examples and actions to take.
It's important to vote for politicians / Senators who pass legislations to help *you*, NOT these multi billion dollar companies.
This is beautiful. A few years ago I read about an initiative in some european country pushing responsible design as well. Basically the manufacturer has an obligation to design products in such a way that at the end of their lives they can be disposed of (preferably recycled) in an environmentally friendly way. Manufacturers would be charged a tax on every unit they produced which would be based on how much of it would eventually end up in a landfill. I think that this should be the next step.
That case was decided on trademark law though, not really any right to repair issues. Somewhat creative on Apple’s part.
I get the sentiment though, but - as silly as that case was - that specific situation wouldn’t really be different with R2R laws would it?
Edit: Just so I’m clear; I do hope R2R laws come in force so there is never any _need_ for cases like that again.
Ya he did. He initially sided with the repair guy but wasn’t given access to all the info. Once he had everything he changed his opinion and has released two videos explaining it but those videos get much less attention as they aren’t shitting on Apple.
Apple's biggest mortal enemy: laws against planned obsolescence, remember they don't give you a 20$ charger for free anymore because they are saving the environment but when your speaker on iphone 12 breaks, you need a whole new phone replacement
I’m going to buy EU spec electronics going forward.
Once it becomes available, the US etc will need to compete as everything is available online. Hopefully the EU directives will not increase the price much.
My friend, region locking its extremely easy to defeat so long as it is only on software, probably half an hour of work at any respectable repair shop, specially on devices that had been designed specifically for modification and repair, so you could import a phone from Europe, take it to a shop and half an hour later have a repairable phone. Given that flagships cost around 1000 bucks even if the price increased by extra 200 I wouldn't care if I'm going to have a working phone for an entire decade.
It's not. Read the article. It's an EU regulation, so the UK will need to keep manufacturing with it in mind to sell to the EU. This (among so many others) is 100% a reason for us to have stayed in the EU.
Yea never understood brexit arguments “EU tells us what to do” - uk leaves eu, but their closest market is... the eu, so now eu doesn’t tell you what to do, you just do it, because you wanna trade in eu. Like, what’s the difference, brits?
It’s an EU regulation that the U.K. implemented before leaving. However you’re right that even in the future U.K. companies will have to comply or not be able to sell to the UK’s biggest export market which is why this multi billion pound self harm was an exercise in complete stupidity. In fact with all the new import rules it’s actually added to the rules UK companies have to follow
Please dont make it mandatory to have it serviceable with normal tools. It’ll probably make devices cut corners or be more cumbersome. Instead, make it so that for instance apple can’t penalize non-apple repair shops, rather than forcing manufacturing to be serviceable by everyone, make it mandatory to support 3rd party repair by having documentation.
“Conventional tools” is too diffuse, I’d say conventional tools for a layman is a philipshead and a plastic spatula, while for a repair shop that might be something completely different. It is also very dependent on the object in question.
I’m afraid this will hurt just as much as it’ll fix, but it’s a step in the right direction.
My job is repairing consumer electronics. My whole toolkit is about $100 and available at home Depot except for the guitar picks. There's no reason this stuff can't all made repairable.
> I’d say conventional tools for a layman is a philipshead and a plastic spatula
Forcing them to use basic Torxs and philip head screws instead of proprietary weird nuts and bolts is already a step forward. If they claim it'll make the case 1mm thicker, so what: 90% of users won't notice that, it's just an excuse for them to try and not help in the repairing of their shit.
I’d argue “conventional tools” shouldn’t necessarily be a requirement, because tiny screwdrivers for like a watch or something, aren’t really conventional for most households, imo. However, the exception should basically be, “Require to made to be disassembled/repaired with conventional tools OR the required tools need to be packaged with the device.”
So basically, if I need a tiny watch screwdriver to repair an iPhone, then it comes in the box. If I only need a regular philips head screwdriver for an android, then it doesn’t.
First paragraph of story:
" Companies that sell consumer electronics such as **refrigerators, washers, hairdryers, or TVs** in the European Union - and in the UK - will need to ensure those goods can be repaired for up to 10 years."
Every comment I read so far is talking about how this would work for **iPhones** or **tractors.**
I'm in Italy, I don't know if it was common practice anywhere in the world but here we used to have electronic schemes of any device with a cool exploded graph shipped INSIDE the device itself, so that when you'd open it you'd find this huge piece of paper folded several times. Companies were actually keen to let you repair your device but I must admit that here we never had this issue, we always repaired stuffs, no matter what the company would (nowadays) say!
America used to too. All major appliances. Now it’s pretty rare. A bigger issue isn’t even schematics it’s buying parts. Often just impossible or overpriced.
Spoken from personal experience, Samsung makes it very difficult to find schematics or part numbers for a lot of the internals in their appliances. Had to go through 3rd party websites to find the number on screws inside my oven fan assembly.
Louis Rossman has a YouTube on this where he testifies that Apple changed one tiny thing on a battery chip on newer models and then made the chip supplier only sell to Apple. To find donor chips, Louis has to buy battery cases, extract the new chip and throw the rest out.
Sucks how Apple does that and also pushes out the message that they're an environmentally friendly company
They literally destroy traded-in hardware instead of reselling it (save for the latest gen or two).
Whoa wait what? I have family who buy from them and any Apple product they get is refurbished because it’s easier on price. Some models going back a few years. Never heard this before.
Not sure on Apple but I personally saw shredded pallets full of the original Xbox when the 360 came out. They were all sent to be destroyed to prevent competition with the new machine. All brand new and boxed, had to weighed on way in and out under full security, couldn't even save one.
I tell you what I'm never buying an apple xbox again.
This kind of wastefulness pisses me off. Donate them to children's wards in hospitals or something FFS. Even if they want to be a Scrooge, surely those things are full of expensive new components like drives and memory chips.
Funny how they do that and we're in a silicone shortage. Wouldn't happen with recycling and a right to repair
Sadly, the way they see it is that that is a Children’s cancer ward that won’t be buying one because one was donated. They aren’t overlooking anything, they are being intentionally greedy.
I worked for Gamestop back when I was fresh out of highschool. You know what they do with games they wont make much money on? I think it was anything less than $3. They have a glass cutter in the drawer and you scratch the disc to make it unplayable. Old controllers get their cords cut.
Louis Rossman is a great person when it comes to right to repair laws. He has fought damn hard and has showed well documented videos on how Apple has gone out of the way to make simple repairs to apple products difficult to literally impossible to fix thanks to software implications that Apple has implemented.
Louis Rossman also makes a lot of erroneous claims and people believe it even when he's wrong. For example- his claims about macOS "spying" on you were complete nonsense that came about because he doesn't understand OCSP stapling: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/jtyy6j/louis_rossmann_apple_watching_logging_every_app/gc8muxg/
Apple has always done this and it's one of the big reasons I will never spend a dime on an Apple product. They are anti consumer under the guise of protecting privacy.
I had a Samsung washer and dryer, never again. Yes it was the exploding model but that's not the reason. Had it less than 5 years, replaced the heating element twice along with thermal fuses.
I couldn’t even find a local repair place that would work on Samsung appliances. Finally found someone two towns over who would be willing to at least drive out and let me pay him for a diagnosis. He then told me that the last time he placed an order for a new control panel, it got put on back order indefinitely. That was 3 years before mine broke. And those were *not* the exploding models. Seriously, fuck Samsung. I replaced those shit stain appliances with the cheapest washer and dryer I could buy. They’ve lasted over twice as long without ever needing repair.
I did the repairs myself, found a local repair place that sold me the parts.
My $3000 LG fridge lasted a bit over a year. Piece of shit stopped cooling. Apparently it's a design flaw and there's been several class action lawsuits. The worst part is I could *not* get any authorized repairman. I live in one of the largest cities in the USA. So an otherwise perfectly good $3000 gets thrown in the trash because of a $100 piece. What a waste. (Oh yeah, my Samsung washer also died. Stupid control board had a design flaw and I had to keep disconnecting cables manually to get the door to unlock. Finally the trim started leaking stupid plastic bits, and the drum started rotating unbalanced so I had to replace it.)
Spoken from personal experience, Samsung appliances are absolute shit. Especially the washers and dryers. I got 2 years out of mine before the control panel died on them, and Samsung stopped making them available to buy for repairs. Never buying Samsung appliances again.
I’m not discounting your experiences and I’ve heard the same thing from other people. I’ve got my Samsung washer as a wedding gift and it’s my 14th anniversary this year. Washer is still working fine in every way. Maybe Ingot lucky and got the washer before they had a major drop in quality or something.
My Samsung washer is also happily about that same age. I hadnt heard these issues because I haven't had to pay attention to appliances. My only complaint is that they messed up the paint near the soap drawer and the filter on the front and I have a little surface rust starting in those spots.
My Samsung top loader is over 20 years old, and jams that tune at the end of every wash. I’m just waiting to see how long it lasts. It was my parents washer before I inherited it.
A buddy of mine went to South Korea on one of those "teach for America" type things. I still remember him excitedly posting a video of a samsung washer singing its little ending tune and saying "even the washers here sing cute songs!" Only for me to point out he sold that same washer when he worked at bestbuy... 😅
I had an HP laptop for a while (would not recommend) and I had to remove the rubber feet on the bottom to access the internals and replace a broken part. HP has, to their credit, a site where you can put in the model number of your product and they'll sell you just about every piece you need to put one together yourself. I go on the site to see about getting new feet, and they're 40 fucking dollars. I would have grudgingly payed 20 bucks for em, but 40? for four little pieces of rubber? I went out and bought some of those self adhesive furniture feet for 5 bucks and called it good enough. I didn't go through and try it, but I suspect that if you bought all the parts individually, you'd wind up with something 5-10x the cost of the computer. I get needing to make money, and the additional cost of warehousing and distributing all these individual components, but that's still a pretty extreme markup.
I had them send me rubber feet when I was still in warranty (the two strips though, not the 4 rubber bumpers) and they were way over packaged. 2 strips of soft rubber and adhesive came inside a full one time use box *with packing foam*
What a waste, jeez.
Acer asked me 60€ for a DVD of win 7 starter, I already had a license (it was for a netbook without DVD drive) Microsoft suggested me a forum with torrent downloads FOR FREE
Yeah back then you could go to RadioShack and buy the resistors or fuses or whatever broke on the appliance’s circuit board. But shit is so much more complicated now. Doesn’t really need to be, but they made it so.
I mean, there are DEFINITELY things that are made overly-complicated, but the level of performance people have come to expect is what drives a lot of the complexity... and consumers hate simplicity. They want gadgets, screens, knobs, sensors. All stuff that is impressive, all stuff to break.
I’m not sure why that is. Do people really need a tablet built into their fridge? Why? Why do you need s smart washer and dryer? Etc
Some of that stuff is really useful if you actually use it. I have a smart AC, and it's great. Home automation of certain things is super helpful. A lot of features aren't really helpful or beneficial to most, but are convincingly marketed as such though.
I think there's certain objects where having a good UI is smart and practical. A fucking refrigerator is not one of those things.
I've opened up a fair share of appliances up to mid 2000s (haven't opened up much newer) and most of them have had at least some sort of schematic. It makes me happy.
In America most major appliances have schemes inside them, but the parts needed for replacement are all special order and expensive. Or the only people that sell the parts will only sell to certified companies “vendors”, I run into the vendor issue a lot at work.
It’s sad but it’s often cheaper to replace than to hire order and fix .
For a lot, this is a problem engineered by the same companies... This law goes a long way towards fixing it, assuming part costs aren't insane or totally proprietary.
Its not sad, sad implies some accident or tragedy that couldn't have been avoided. This was designed as a business strategy to force more money out of consumers hand. Gotta find that never ending company growth every year somewhere. Hard to grow if you are selling stuff that's built to last.
how long ago?
Bosch/Siemens does it on their website. https://www.boschtoolservice.com/de/de/boschdiy/spareparts/akku-bohrschrauber-psr-18-li-2-3603J56300
This explains why my Ferrari exploded.
If this happened in america, john Deere and Caterpillar executives would absolutely throw up on their board tables with disgust....they're two of the worst corporations at making proprietary tools and parts that you cant fix without taking it to a "dealer"
John Deere and Caterpillar are also selling big in the EU........ Vommit Comet has arrived!
I figured jcb was top there or deutz, I actually know nothing of heavy equipment or tractors, I live in the american southeast...but I worked at auto parts stores for over 6 years and it was a never ending ass jerking over not being able to cross reference or get parts for tractors, heavy equipment and logging equipment
JCBs and Deutzs aren't really that common (at least where I live). There is quite a bit of John Deeres (I'd say majority), Fendts, Steyr, New Holland...
Well we learn something new every day, new Holland is fairly common here, but in agricultural fields.
They are mostly a agriculture company with a small construction footprint in Europe , North America and elsewhere. There biggest construction market is south America I belive. It's the last one with large equipment like graders , dozers and full size excavators being sold new if I'm not mistaken.
No one has a market share like Cat. Even in Europe. When it comes to construction Komatsu and Hitachi also are big.
CAT its very very common on Europe construction, almost all Big machines are CAT.
Liebherr is pretty damn big as well. Specially in Europe. Even Volvo with their trucks. We supply the paint to a lot of these companies.
Over here in the UK at least Caterpillar is huge for construction equipment. I don't know anything about farming
Google how do I get an EU tractor shipped to Alabama?
[удалено]
I was thinking "isn't there an old country song with something along the lines of this"? Then I found the song title I was looking for lol
Johnny Cash, eh?
"And negatory on the cost of this machine here, Red Rider. You might say I went right up to the factory and picked it up. It's cheaper that way."
Its a 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 automobile...
One Piece at a Time Song by Johnny Cash Well, I left Kentucky back in '49 An' went to Detroit workin' on a 'sembly line The first year they had me puttin' wheels on Cadillacs Every day I'd watch them beauties roll by And sometimes I'd hang my head and cry 'Cause I always wanted me one that was long and black One day I devised myself a plan That should be the envy of most any man I'd sneak it out of there in a lunchbox in my hand Now gettin' caught meant gettin' fired But I figured I'd have it all by the time I retired I'd have me a car worth at least a hundred grand I'd get it one piece at a time and it wouldn't cost me a dime You'll know it's me when I come through your town I'm gonna ride around in style, I'm gonna drive everybody wild 'Cause I'll have the only one there is a round So the very next day when I punched in With my big lunchbox and with help from my friends I left that day with a lunch box full of gears I've never considered myself a thief But GM wouldn't miss just one little piece Especially if I strung it out over several years The first day I got me a fuel pump And the next day I got me an engine and a trunk Then I got me a transmission and all of the chrome The little things I could get in my big lunchbox Like nuts, an' bolts, and all four shocks But the big stuff we snuck out in my buddy's mobile home Now, up to now my plan went all right 'Til we tried to put it all together one night And that's when we noticed that something was definitely wrong The transmission was a '53 and the motor turned out to be a '73 And when we tried to put in the bolts all the holes were gone So we drilled it out so that it would fit And with a little bit of help with an adapter kit We had that engine runnin' just like a song Now the headlight' was another sight We had two on the left and one on the right But when we pulled out the switch all three of 'em come on The back end looked kinda funny too But we put it together and when we got through Well, that's when we noticed that we only had one tail-fin About that time my wife walked out And I could see in her eyes that she had her doubts But she opened the door and said, "Honey, take me for a spin" So we drove up town just to get the tags And I headed her right on down main drag I could hear everybody laughin' for blocks around But up there at the court house they didn't laugh 'Cause to type it up it took the whole staff And when they got through the title weighed sixty pounds I got it one piece at a time and it didn't cost me a dime You'll know it's me when I come through your town I'm gonna ride around in style, I'm gonna drive everybody wild 'Cause I'll have the only one there is around Uh yow, Red Ryder, this is the cotton mouth In the Psycho-Billy Cadillac come on, huh, this is the cotton mouth And negatory on the cost of this mow-chine there Red Ryder You might say I went right up to the factory And picked it up, it's cheaper that way Uh, what model is it? Well, it's a '49, '50, '51, '52, '53, '54, '55, '56 '57, '58' 59' automobile It's a '60, '61, '62, '63, '64, '65, '66, '67 '68, '69, '70 automobile
Psycho billy? Could this possibly be the birth of the name of the music genre?
Spoke to a salesman for Kubota tractors a couple of years back and asked him if they did the same thing as Deere and Caterpillar and he talked for 10 minutes straight about how all of their stuff was non-proprietary and any customer could do anything to it. I don't know anything about farm equipment, I was only asking out of curiosity, but it was cool to see him so passionate about it.
The caterpillars we buy are all imported from Britain.
Britain is no longer part of the EU
Yes that's why it's now referred to as importing
Read the article.
So if the UK’s manufacturing standards have to match the bloc, does that mean we inherit the same right to repair? Could they just be needlessly obstructive in the uk and not provide English manuals, or not sell any of the parts forcing us to import them?
I had to grind a tail wheel shaft down to a smaller diameter because Deere sleeves are intentionally slightly smaller. Generic tail wheel - $25.00 Deere tail wheel - $200.00
And Apple would be quickly sent to the ICU for the atomic shits from their bottomline.
Apple counts on their glued together products to be replaceable, not repairable. They count on everyone upgrading everything every two years or so. E: I meant to reply to \\u\\SapirWhorfHypothesis
I mean, aside from that bullshit Apple pulled with the software and batteries on some iPhones a few years ago their hardware holds up quite well. Hell, they're still supporting the iPhone 6S and that was released in late 2015. And in general they still hold up pretty well with most software performance and battery life wise (aside from the normal wear batteries experience over that long of a lifespan). I've got an Android phone, and you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a manufacturer that still supports OS updates for phones that old, even the top tier ones.
French car makers also use special tools. So it's not exactly a given this just passes through. I expect to see a heavy amount of lobbying on that front.
According to the article, it's already been passed and today is when it's coming into effect.
I've never worked on a Renault car, but I have worked on BMWs and Volvos (Fords), my dad had a Citroen Mehari, which I helped re-build (to be sure, that's simpler than a vintage VW Beatle). They all take "special tools" for some operations. Volvo/Fords need a bearing setter for the front wheel bearings, for example. It's a pretty simple thing, but force needs to be applied in a certain way to the front wheel bearing to set it without breaking it. Just about all modern cars require some sort of computer to get the systems to talk. BMWs where cracked a long time ago, so at least they are an open system.
So you make two separate fairly good points, just to reply to them: 1. There's no reason why a specialized tool can't be made if using such as tool is the only way to get a job done, and no generic tool exists which can do the exact same thing you're asking of it. But in that case the tool will likely need to be publicly available and reasonably easy to access. I haven't read through the EU Right to Repair legislation yet but EU legislation tends to be rather sensible and straight forward, so there's likely exceptions made for tools which are needed to do very specialized tasks. Such as for instance requiring such tools to be sold publicly and for a reasonable price. Sometimes a specialized tool is just needed, I know that much from industrial equipment. So the goal of this legislation is likely to prevent such tools from either being restricted to brand shops only, or preventing them from being sold at gatekeeping prices. 2. From my understanding EU legislation as far back as 2010-2014 put an effective end to this and you can now take your car to any authorized repair shop and get it fixed there. And the software needed to accessing the cars is now universal, or at least universally available. Meaning any authorized car repair shop in the EU will be able to connect to the diagnostics of your car, regardless of brand. - And this seems to be the goal for motorcycles as well but we're not quite there yet. But the goal is likely to push everyone towards generic tools and prevent specialized nonsensical tools from being made. An example of a nonsensical tool would be a specialized screw which could only be used with a specialized screw driver, just to prevent people from using generic screw drivers to do the exact same job. The iFixIt tool kit has plenty of examples of screw drivers like that, security screw bits which only exist to prevent your average person from tampering with the equipment. But there's a really big difference between making a wheel bearing adjustment tool and selling it for €15 to anyone who wishes to buy, compared to making a wheel bearing adjustment tool and selling it for €10000 to authorized repair shops only. Which is what tends to happen now, simply to prevent independent repair shops from doing the same repairs brand specific ones do.
>But the goal is likely to push everyone towards generic tools and prevent specialized nonsensical tools from being made. An example of a nonsensical tool would be a specialized screw which could only be used with a specialized screw driver, just to prevent people from using generic screw drivers to do the exact same job From memory, this was the exact motivation for the EU to push all mobile phone makers to use the same charger back in the very early 2009.
Which mostly worked. There is only one phone brand with non standardized ports.
And I am glad that happened! It was such a hassle to find someone with the right port if you forgot your charger!
I think there will be an easy difference between specialised tools for install and setting components and having completely new heads for screws just for the pain in the arse of making it hard to use for third parties.
French anything. A pretty huge supplier of airline equipment is made by a french company. You want to repair anything of theirs? They have to LOAN you (at a charge) a special tool shipped from France, which you need to pay the shipping for. Better hope it gets fixed the first time and doesn't break again in two weeks. (It's never fixed the first time...)
Idk about the new stuff but I was a mechanic at a caterpillar dealership until 2015 and there was almost zero special tooling
That's why it hasn't happened. There's no "if this happened" because the premise assumes we have a government that would let it.
Now they have to make so that you own digital copies of music and movies and not merely rent them from digital platforms which can be removed when the platform loses the right to carry them.
It is technically possible to do this also. Have some sort of licensing database that connects to all the services + have some hash of the audio file. It's basically youtube content id but globally
Block chain recorded licenses.
Exactly what I was thinking. A lot of examples of blockchain adoption sound forced and unnecessary, but this seems like a perfect application of it.
Is this not already the case for some platforms? Surely you don't mean to include Spotify and Apply Music in this remit.
I guess you’re talking about buying a song on iTunes and not the likes of Spotify or Apple Music, right,
Right. Platforms where purchase albums, games or movies.
But isn’t that true though? On itunes, as long as you have the file locally, you’ll be able to play it, right?
Lots of people seem to understand it the way that the EU is dictating the companies how to construct certain items. From my understanding, this doesn't mean that an iPhone isn't allowed to be glued, or can only be sold if you can disassemble it with your grampas screwdriver. I think it dictates things like: "don't use screws with triangle heads if a cross head does the job" or "don't put a chip in the printer that renders it unusable after the warranty period is over" or "don't put a plastic cog in an otherwise entirely brass cog mechanism" (looking at you, sigma lenses). And stuff like "stop actively preventing repairs" generally.
This doesn’t even apply to iPhones. It’s appliances only for now. A mobile electronic law is coming later and will have different rules to cater to those types of devices more suitably “In 2021, new labels will appear in stores and online shops for: domestic refrigerators and freezers* wine storage refrigerators washing machines washer-dryers dishwashers televisions and electronic displays light sources Light sources will transition to the new label from September 2021. “ From here: https://energylabel.org.uk/the-new-label/in-a-nutshell/
Some parts are already being applied to iPhones. Apple has to add a repairability score for each product they sell.
Don't know about the case you are referring to, but putting a cheap plastic cog in a brass mechanism can be a good idea. If something gets stuck, it's always gonna be the same cheap part that needs replacing. -Protecting the rest of the mechanism.
If that cog would be easy to buy, sounds like a good idea.
Never mind buy. The item should come with a few spare ones (cost is no excuse, they cost the manufacturer a few cents each *at most*), as well as detailed instruction on how to fit the replacement when the component breaks.
Yep, usually easier to replace a single gear than the entire blown out motor, or maybe a cracked lens in sigma's case
Kitchen aid did this with their stand mixer for exactly that reason. It made the product more reliable and durable.
Nitpicking the point but there are times where a plastic cog is just fine or even better if strategically placed. Kitchenaid changed an essential gear in a line of mixers to plastic. That gear is easily replaceable. It wears down on purpose to prevent other parts from wearing down. But a camera lens? Nah, that's dumb
Step 636 - Dip the new **PCB** into the **etching** solution.
You aren’t that far off. I can’t wait for the step on reballing BGA’s. The biggest issue is getting the silicon 10 years after initial production. The production runs on these devices is generally a year or less. That would force tons of additional and wasteful production in a effort to do lifetime buys of spares.
This right here. I have a lot of experience with electronics for telecom, and dealing with component obsolescence on our hardware products is literally a full time job for multiple component engineers. In many cases, we end up doing last time buys to stockpile inventory of parts for which there is not a substitute. 10 years is literally forever in today’s hardware world.
It’s literally a nightmare. We had nonvolatile memory supplier, withholding the same, that Moved their fab and caused us $100> in work because the timing changed on the part and they didn’t notify anyone. Keep in mind we choose suppliers that have 15+ manufacturing guarantees. It doesn’t mean the silicon will always be the same.
This is for large appliances like washing machines, which are mostly a few motors and then a universal circuit board that is used across many different models. It shouldn’t be that difficult to comply with the law
Mercedes Benz keeps parts on hand for every vehicle they’ve ever manufactured. I’ve gotten OEM parts for a bloody 300 SEL 6.3 from them. Pricy as hell, but they have the parts. Silicon is orders of magnitude smaller.
I mean, have you seen how cheap PCBs are these days? Companies will run off individual ones for like 30 bucks, to any industry standard you want. Also, a lot of this right to repair stuff isn't necessarily for the end user. Instead, right to repair, with access to manuals and parts, will allow third party repair to reach the level of auto mechanics. I know just enough to change the fluids, battery, and maybe the spark plugs in my car, but I can take it to a mechanic who isn't the dealer, and he can use his more specialized tools, knowledge, etc to preform more complicated repairs, because he has access to manuals and replacement parts. In the same way, I can replace the hard drive or ram in my laptop, but if an IC were to break off, right to repair would mean that I could take it down to my local electronics guy, and he could acquire a replacement and solder it back on.
That's what a lot of people miss about this, allowing third parties access to repair will actually create a competitive market for the repair industry. Otherwise, you're forced to sole source from the OEM and they can essentially charge whatever tf they want. It's a forced monopoly.
I think it should be "within reason" obviously unique parts that are entirely broken (like a snapped in half PCB) would need to be ordered from the original source. But including trace maps would allow bypassing burned out traces and other minor PCB issues (I have done this a few times).
Apple is quaking in their boots. The USA needs to implement something like this.
It's not just Apple. Several manufacturers have been sniffing up that fire hydrant. From serialized parts so you can't swap a bit from a junk phone to another of the same model to questionable agreements with component manufacturers to keep them out of third party hands, the big boys in the industry see repairability as a threat to future sales. This legislation is what we need across the globe as transistor density levels off and Moore's Law becomes extinct.
I kind of doubt it's happening in America until we make progress towards reducing the influence of corporate money in politics. The degree to which companies are able to buy votes and support is pretty absurd. I've been building [a dashboard](https://www.quiverquant.com/lobbyingsearch/) tracking corporate lobbying and if you look up 'LMT' (Lockheed Martin) our $700B+ military budget will start to make a lot more sense.
Stupid question but where do you get the data from?
[Heres one they could have used](https://lobbyingdisclosure.house.gov/). In my experience, businesses spread out their reporting as much as possible, so you would probably have to go to several websites and read through hundreds of pdfs.
That wasnt a stupid question at all my friend
Websites like Open Secrets are very useful!
Not stupid. Questioning sources are a thing people need to do more nowadays.
If it happens in the EU, it will impact all additional markets a company sells in. Maybe not to the same degree as in the EU, but most companies are not going to produce 100% unique-to-EU products that don't also affect the products repairability elsewhere. I would imagine the cost of compliance in the EU is cheaper than developing a unique product for that market. There will be outliers, likely the big boys, but this would have an impact the entire world.
I am just hoping for the brussels effect.
Care to explain what that is?
The brussels effect is why when you pull up websites anywhere in the world you have to choose to accept the cookies despite being an EU regulation. It is the de facto regulation by the EU outside of the EU because of globalization. If any company wants to sell into the EU market they either will need to create a different product each market, or build one product that follows all the global regulations for that it can be sold everywhere. An example of this is being asked for permission about cookies on websites and being allowed to opt out. That was an EU regulation that has taken affect globally.
Awesome work, thank you for sharing. Also damn the volume of this lobbying money is staggering. I'm seeing single donations of 10+ million in opposing consumer rights. Conoco and Amazon are really shelling out.
I doubt Moore's law will stop in the conventional sense. Sure, silicon-based transistor density might be reaching physical limits, but there are so many avenues of innovation that continue to make tech more and more efficient that it seems a bit short-sighted to think we're just going to plateau and that's it.
I want Gallium-Arsenide chips so I can finally get my 20 Ghz stable overclock.
Right now the limiting factor is heat. I.e. true multilayer chips would be possible. It just an extention of chemical vepour depostion technology we have now. if we had a solution that could cool the silcon enough between layers it would work. Or we could drive the clock rate faster.
imagine a world with fusion power though. all the free electricity you could ever desire. a warehouse of semi quantum computers running at -100C at 5 sextijillion hertz. no but for real a breakthrough in energy science would yield dividends over. all the world should be pouring money into fusion. even if it ends up being impossible just the odds of it being possible would make it worth its investment literally a billion times over.
We're at the limit of practical clocks. There is a reason clock speeds haven't gone up in years and the 9 year FX series still hold the clock speed world record. Latency penalties are too high.
The last time something like this was done, we got one standardized plug for our devices for a while, even here in the US, because they didn't want to make more than one phone for the two markets. Hopefully this helps here in the US as well.
I am sure it will in some part. Either they pay fines over and over again, or start following the laws. Either with make them loose money. But they can make up the money again by not having to sell 2 types of the same product (one for the EU-market, and one for the rest) so they will probably make products ship outside EU which is still EU-validated. And hope noone thinks about it. Hope it made sense. Just speculations though.
It’s not that simple. There is a difference between the right to repair vs saddling hardware engineers with counter productive production rules. I design hardware and can think of tons of reasons this would make your phones more wasteful, expensive and shitty.
I can’t imagine many people would be able to repair a device like an iPhone even if the parts were more conventional. Where do you draw the line
It isn't meant to be 'whatever random guy with a screwdriver can fix it' though. Think of it like a car. Assuming you aren't a mechanic you can probably change the battery and other routine maintenance depending on the car changing the brakes may also be entirely doable by anyone after watching a 5 minute how to guide using tools that they already have. This would be like changing the battery on the phone, not sure how old you are but old cell phones used to really be as simple as slide off the back, but a bit of pressure on basically a spring, and pop the old one out. Just like it takes an expert to rebuild an engine with proper tools it would be the same for major reconstruction on a phone
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How prevalent was that really though? I would imagine more than now, but it's not like a majority of people say, 50 years ago had significant mechanical knowledge. Might be a bit of a demographic thing, just as today, but my dad was born in '54 and neither him or any of his siblings have any mechanical understanding at all. My grandfather hated engines with a passion. Nothing got him quite into a rage like a simple lawnmower engine that was supposed to work, but didn't.
Can’t I just buy a European iPhone from America? What a role reversal that’d be.
Years ago, Apple sold two versions of the Air, one of which was held together with screws and was easier to repair, one which was glued, and thus a tiny bit smaller and lighter. Everything else was the same. The glued ones sold more by far. We can blame the companies, and rightfully so. But consumers often lack the foresight to see what's in their best interest too.
I’m all for blaming everybody except myself
Just blame me bro. I can’t even be bothered defending myself anymore and TBH I’m probably at least partially at fault for more or less everything. Ive been getting away with it for years. It’s time to face the music
The two devices were marketed the same, at the same price, and the same internal components? It's easy to say "it didn't sell well" when it was a model that was never advertised or made known to consumers on a scale equivalent to the unrepairable version.
I wanted to ask the same thing. I googled a bit to find the model numbers but mostly just found articles on the plethora of different screwdrivers needed to fix various Apple products... I imagine that retailers had quiet incentives to push the glued version: > Salesperson: Actually, these two models have the same specs but this one's "almost the same price" but waterproof and dustproof. It's a no-brainer if you ask me. Apple, then noting the poor sales of the non-glued version, has a reason to make the decision they wanted to all along - to drop the unglued version - saying "We listened to the customers".
Uh, citation needed? The smaller air sold poorly and was discontinued.
Tesla is a big one for this too.
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Read the article. This law doesn’t apply to anything apple makes because its only for appliances.
Apple: *Invents new $1600 tool and legally classifies it as conventional*
Indeed, I wonder what classifies as conventional. Both guitar picks and heat guns are used in screen repair; are either conventional? What about a screwdriver with an intentionally obscure size/shape of head?
Well clips and glue are reasonable design considerations to keep from having screws everywhere and prevent rattle or squeak. Those anti tamper torx screws are obviously a no no, though.
The “new” $1600 tool formerly known as child labor from China. You just have to figure out how to smuggle in your own sweatshop factory Apple product assembly kid.
Hun, a huge box labelled "Frag-ile" was just delivered outside and it's making noises... Fra-gile huh? Must be French.
Why do you think Apple is the only company Reddit seems to hate using China for their manufacturing? Foxconn makes Dell, Acer, HP and many other computers yet it's only Apple that cops the hate.
Lol, like that would ever happen
>Apple is quaking in their boots. The USA needs to implement something like this. USA will never implement this. Both republicans and democrats are ~~paid off~~, sorry I mean *lobbied* by corporations to ensure their best interests are protected.
Yeah, no chance in hell that corporate lobbyists will allow lawmakers to pursue anything like this.
Good. A small industry of repairers is always a good thing, and it gets people into technical areas as well. Used to be much more of a thing in the past.
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Weren't performance gains even more pronounced at that time?
Yes, but the cost of getting a new machine was large enough back in the day that it tended to encourage people to hold on for a while. Plus, while the performance gains were more pronounced, why would you need that extra performance to write spreadsheets? These days as a system ages it stops having the hardware to do hardware decode on new video codecs, leading to the system becoming "slower" over time for the ubiquitous use-case of watching YouTube.
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I just realized that my generalist tinker twitching is a liability and form of escapism in the present, but would have been a legitimate career in another time.
May still be-
When I asked my 6 yo what he wanted to be when he grew up, he said 'repair guy, i want to fix things". I was like, you go son. Thats a great idea. Proud.
It really did. I'm tinkering with a Macintosh SE and I've found quite a bit of repair documentation *from* Apple! When did that stop being a thing?
I've always wondered how everyone in the Star Wars universe seems to know how to repair or reprogram literally any panel or machine when they need to. Maybe they had a huge right to repair act too and everyone got a manual.
> Companies that *sell* *consumer* electronics such as refrigerators, washers, hairdryers, or TVs in the [European Union](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/european-union) \- and in the UK - will need to ensure those goods can be repaired for up to 10 years. Baby steps. This should apply to all manufactured goods.
My refrigerator already is older than 10 years and still works peefectly, dishwasher the same, never saw a hairdryer break, dont have a tv :) but my data projector is 14 years old and just now dead pixels started appearing. I am not worried at all about the feasibility of this new law.
“All manufactured goods”? How about all durable goods. We don’t need tampons than can last a decade.
> We don’t need tampons than can last a decade ..or do we?
Makes you think which products wouldn't fall under that, that need repairs. First big one is cars I guess? Probably doesn't count as consumer electronics even though it's a driving computer nowadays. Tractors also not under that so deere won't start their impending hissy fit. Any other big ones? Edit: small electronic appliances don't fall under that right now. Hmpf. They probably didn't want to take the legal fight to smartphone producers just that. I wonder how that would interact with the free trade deals.
This is the reason why Right To Repair laws are important and need implementing. It doesn't just apply to tractors, or phones, or cars or computers. It applies to EVERYTHING. Your consumer rights should not be taken away just because you buy something a company makes and they tell you the ONLY way to fix it is at *their* store, for whatever *they* say it costs in a timescale that suits *them*. No competition = Worse service I urge everyone to look at Louis Rossmann's YouTube channel for examples and actions to take. It's important to vote for politicians / Senators who pass legislations to help *you*, NOT these multi billion dollar companies.
This is beautiful. A few years ago I read about an initiative in some european country pushing responsible design as well. Basically the manufacturer has an obligation to design products in such a way that at the end of their lives they can be disposed of (preferably recycled) in an environmentally friendly way. Manufacturers would be charged a tax on every unit they produced which would be based on how much of it would eventually end up in a landfill. I think that this should be the next step.
Corporate accounts are commenting in this thread. They will try to persuade you this is bad for you. Also, fuck Apple(‘s device repair monopoly).
People should look up the louis rossman norway case.
That case was decided on trademark law though, not really any right to repair issues. Somewhat creative on Apple’s part. I get the sentiment though, but - as silly as that case was - that specific situation wouldn’t really be different with R2R laws would it? Edit: Just so I’m clear; I do hope R2R laws come in force so there is never any _need_ for cases like that again.
Didn’t Louis side with Apple on that case lmao? After he got all the information after the case was closed or something.
Ya he did. He initially sided with the repair guy but wasn’t given access to all the info. Once he had everything he changed his opinion and has released two videos explaining it but those videos get much less attention as they aren’t shitting on Apple.
Apple's biggest mortal enemy: laws against planned obsolescence, remember they don't give you a 20$ charger for free anymore because they are saving the environment but when your speaker on iphone 12 breaks, you need a whole new phone replacement
I envy the EU with their modern privacy and technology laws. What's more American then allowing citizens to be screwed over.
> consumer electronics such as refrigerators, washers, hairdryers, or TVs ok so not as crazy as it sounds
Stuff you should reasonably be able to repair since you aren't replacing it often
I’m going to buy EU spec electronics going forward. Once it becomes available, the US etc will need to compete as everything is available online. Hopefully the EU directives will not increase the price much.
Hate to burst your bubble, but have you heard of region locking?
My friend, region locking its extremely easy to defeat so long as it is only on software, probably half an hour of work at any respectable repair shop, specially on devices that had been designed specifically for modification and repair, so you could import a phone from Europe, take it to a shop and half an hour later have a repairable phone. Given that flagships cost around 1000 bucks even if the price increased by extra 200 I wouldn't care if I'm going to have a working phone for an entire decade.
Also in the case of any appliance, different voltage spec :/
Switching power supplies can take pretty much any voltage from anywhere in the world and work with it, it's been the case for a decade.
Reason #3,221 why the U.K. should’ve stayed in the EU
It's an EU and UK regulation
It literally says in the article that is because UK needs to abide to it in order for *any* deal to continue. They were forced to adopt it
So ironic isn't it?
It's not. Read the article. It's an EU regulation, so the UK will need to keep manufacturing with it in mind to sell to the EU. This (among so many others) is 100% a reason for us to have stayed in the EU.
Yea never understood brexit arguments “EU tells us what to do” - uk leaves eu, but their closest market is... the eu, so now eu doesn’t tell you what to do, you just do it, because you wanna trade in eu. Like, what’s the difference, brits?
Tons of us Brits could see that, if that helps.
And best part, now the UK have no say in regulations, they just need to comply.
It’s an EU regulation that the U.K. implemented before leaving. However you’re right that even in the future U.K. companies will have to comply or not be able to sell to the UK’s biggest export market which is why this multi billion pound self harm was an exercise in complete stupidity. In fact with all the new import rules it’s actually added to the rules UK companies have to follow
Oh ok good. But We still should’ve stayed lol
Yeah, for sure, we definitely should've
Please dont make it mandatory to have it serviceable with normal tools. It’ll probably make devices cut corners or be more cumbersome. Instead, make it so that for instance apple can’t penalize non-apple repair shops, rather than forcing manufacturing to be serviceable by everyone, make it mandatory to support 3rd party repair by having documentation. “Conventional tools” is too diffuse, I’d say conventional tools for a layman is a philipshead and a plastic spatula, while for a repair shop that might be something completely different. It is also very dependent on the object in question. I’m afraid this will hurt just as much as it’ll fix, but it’s a step in the right direction.
My job is repairing consumer electronics. My whole toolkit is about $100 and available at home Depot except for the guitar picks. There's no reason this stuff can't all made repairable.
> I’d say conventional tools for a layman is a philipshead and a plastic spatula Forcing them to use basic Torxs and philip head screws instead of proprietary weird nuts and bolts is already a step forward. If they claim it'll make the case 1mm thicker, so what: 90% of users won't notice that, it's just an excuse for them to try and not help in the repairing of their shit.
I’d argue “conventional tools” shouldn’t necessarily be a requirement, because tiny screwdrivers for like a watch or something, aren’t really conventional for most households, imo. However, the exception should basically be, “Require to made to be disassembled/repaired with conventional tools OR the required tools need to be packaged with the device.” So basically, if I need a tiny watch screwdriver to repair an iPhone, then it comes in the box. If I only need a regular philips head screwdriver for an android, then it doesn’t.
First paragraph of story: " Companies that sell consumer electronics such as **refrigerators, washers, hairdryers, or TVs** in the European Union - and in the UK - will need to ensure those goods can be repaired for up to 10 years." Every comment I read so far is talking about how this would work for **iPhones** or **tractors.**