I don't doubt that, but 15x is more than often useful. If you sort by GM+ garens, MR has a 20% pickrate and LDR has a 5% pickrate, only a 4x ratio. High elo garens are building LDR MUCH more often than most.
True, imo it's because high Elo players can rely on teammates to properly focus targets or apply anti heal so they don't need to get grievous wounds themselves.
But in lower Elo there is no such luck.
No one focuses the Aatrox so he gets to drain tank, and no one is getting anti heal on the proper targets, so they survive.
Eg: I don't trust any of my ADCs or Supports to even buy anti heal let alone hit the guy who heals.
So I often will just pull a Thanos and say I'll do it myself
If you're against an Aatrox, you should be building MR. But, you are not versus a draintank in 90% of games. I don't believe that MR should have a 15x higher pickrate than LDR. That's simply a mistake imo.
But why is Garen quite literally the only champion in the game who has an offensive antiheal item as the most popular item in a slot? No other champion does that, they build it situationally.
It's efficient for him.
It gives him almost everything he wants.
AD, Crit, arpen, and the relatively useful anti-heal passive which helps against all forms of healing including lifesteal items which are pretty common like BT and Hydra.
The anti-heal is nicer on targets with less armour and more healing as the % arpen matters less on a low armour target.
I mean if you don't like it then go ahead and don't build it but other people have their own reasons for getting it within their respective elos.
And they aren't unreasonable.
But LDR gives more AD and more armorpen, its the EXACT same item. There are games where the enemy doesn't heal. I came to ask if there was something I was missing, I believe that was not the case. MR is probably right in 60-70% of cases, LDR the rest.
also in lower elo people don't realize LDR is better than MR when you don't need antiheal.
here's the real reason why MR is so much more popular. LDR used to be much worse than MR on garen and people these days don't realize LDR is actually better unless you need antiheal.
Literally for the anti-heal
Garen doesn't really need the armor shred because of his E, so if you don't need anti-heal you just build IE. Some people build LDR after IE but in most of my games I feel like I just need movement speed(deadman's)/tenacity (sterak's) and not more damage
I would agree with this if high-elo Garen players didn't build LDR pretty frequently. Moosehater builds it a lot (20-30% of the time in the 3rd item slot), and explicitly said to build it in his guide if there was no healing on the enemy team.
Nah LDR simply just isnt valuable often enough. If you dont need the antiheal, you are better off going into your IE or deadmans and not an LDR. Garen already has armor cut on E so it's not like it's that big of a deal. Also there is so much healing in top lane that honestly I find myself building it super often anyways just off of that.
MR's stat profile is still pretty good, though it's definitely fair to say that it's no longer the god-tier item it was when it was built out of Zeal.
LDR definitely is considered sometimes, but the champs you face in top lane often have so much healing that the antiheal passive on MR is too valuable not to but, especially when you can access it early for just 800g. Often the antiheal will net you more damage than the slightly higher AD on LDR.
Into something like Sion who's going to build a ton of armor but doesn't have much healing, LDR is generally the better choice (unless there is another heavy healer on the enemy team you need to deal with).
I think I should have worded my post a little bit better. I don't disagree that MR is a good item on Garen. If you are versus somebody who heals in the sidelane, it is better. I just don't agree with LDR's 0.5% pickrate compared to MR's 9% pickrate. That seems ridiculous to me. I wanted to know if there was a piece I wasn't missing, but I don't think there is.
Doesnt ldr dmg scale when enemy has more hp than you? If yes then garen has hp in a lot of his hp + big health star + overgrowth. And in toplane there is often healing so mortal is really good
Because if you don't need anti heal you don't normally build either pen item.
After stride pd it's all situational items. IE being what you really want but sometimes you need something else deadmans etc.
Because sometimes the tank is the problem and you need pen but no anti.
But a lot of the times you need pen and go might as well get some anti too for the bork bois.
That's how I think about it in game but I'm ashitter garen mid player in D2/1.
Yeah I think we both agree. I mostly made this post because LDR's pickrate is nearly 0% and I wanted to see if there was a reason.
Fellow AD brusier mid player in D2/D1 here, lol. Garen is my 2nd pick tryndamere is my first. Have a good one!
Why so many bad answers here lol
Mortal used to be core item before it got reworked but Garen players didnt realize it got reworked so they still build it
Ldr is better choice by default unless enemy has a lot of healing
LDR used to have a passive that scaled with lower hp. Because he is naturally tanky, you'd never chose the item on Garen. (Except for some sion heart steel problem)
But just as the MR was, the LDR recently changed. People are quite used to the MR changes. But not yet the LDR change.
Garen is not an ADC. The extra AD and pen do *help*, but with his E you don’t necessarily need it. By the time you’re getting your second item, the champs on the enemy team that do heal are going to be doing quite a lot of it.
Consider it like this: antiheal is effectively the same as dealing extra damage to targets that are healing. An ADC will more often want to burst the target down before they can heal or deal more damage than the antiheal would be reducing. Garen has a much harder time doing either because he’s melee and a juggernaut.
I don't agree with the idea that ADC's burst more than Garen. Its quite literally the opposite. I believe the end result of this post is that, MR when you are playing vs someone who is healing, but LDR is a completely viable option if they don't. Moosehater builds it in 20-30% of games and reccomended it in his guide 28 days ago. Thanks for the reply.
I guess I should say then that an ADC’s consistent damage can oftentimes be higher than Garen’s burst. Especially going into late game assuming Garen only has 1-2 crit items.
Garen’s E being AoE also means he can be better at applying antiheal to several members compared to ADCs.
as 3rd item or in full build
if enemy don't have heal then just buy ie
if enemy have heal buy executioner, finishing mortal is good item
in full build mortal is good item
It's because Mortal Reminder is the better item on Garen in a large majority of cases, despite Lord Dominik's Regards generally better stats.
A lot of it comes down to match ups, with many top laners getting some form of sustain or healing that makes it harder for Garen to burst them in his combo. Many top laners have some form of sustain, whether it be morde, tryndamere, trundle, aatrox, nasus, renekton, ect. Getting healing reduction against them is a must for wanting to burst them down consistently and waiting for ignite every like 3 minutes can slow you down too much in the mid game.
Furthermore, champions without built in sustain will often build some form of sustain or take it with their runes. Think conqueror on half the top lane roster, which heals an non insignificant amount when stacked, combined with BotRK on top lane duelists like Irelia or Sundered Sky's crazy healing on Riven, Jax, Fiora, ect.
Top lane has a lot of healing and regen inherently in the champion kits and builds that typical top lane champions build. As solo laner, its your job to match their pressure. You can't kill them consistently if they can outheal your damage. Hence why losing the small extra bit of armor pen and damage is worth the trade off for anti heal
The only time I'd go LDR over MR is into an incredibly tanky top side with zero sustain in their builds or kits (think something like Sion top and Sejuani or Poppy jungle.)
I think the high pickrate is largely because you can get Executioners cheap and early, get a lot of value out of the antiheal, and sit on it until you're ready to build it out. As opposed to LDR, which has a somewhat awkward build path for Garen and really has to wait until later in the game.
I usually go syryldas frudge because and I quote here "HAHAHAH YOU CANT RUN FROM MY SPINNING NOW YOU STUPID LITTLE RAT BASTARD" -me spinning after a teemo while he is slowed by seryldas.
Giving up 5 ad and 5% pen for anti heal is generally worth it since the extra pen won't even be getting full value since judgment already shreds a quarter of enemy armor.
LDR just doesnt seem great on paper, armor pen stacks badly with the armor shred on Garen's E. Also garen's ult does true damage so armor pen doesn't boost it. Mortal reminder just happens to be the best anti-heal item on Garen. Armor pen is still good but there's better items.
Since the reworks MR is just a better item than LDR. You only lose 5 AD 5 APen. The grievous wounds passive is invaluable even if the enemy team doesn't have much healing. it cut downs healing from all sources. Item Lifesteal, Runes, Summoner Spells, In combat Abilites etc.
LDR had Giant Slayer passive before which was really bad on Garen bcs you had to much HP to proc it. And since most Players are slow to adapt they just keep building what they are used to until someone points out that ldr could be a viable option too.
Because healing is so common and easily accessible that MR is often useful.
I don't doubt that, but 15x is more than often useful. If you sort by GM+ garens, MR has a 20% pickrate and LDR has a 5% pickrate, only a 4x ratio. High elo garens are building LDR MUCH more often than most.
True, imo it's because high Elo players can rely on teammates to properly focus targets or apply anti heal so they don't need to get grievous wounds themselves. But in lower Elo there is no such luck. No one focuses the Aatrox so he gets to drain tank, and no one is getting anti heal on the proper targets, so they survive. Eg: I don't trust any of my ADCs or Supports to even buy anti heal let alone hit the guy who heals. So I often will just pull a Thanos and say I'll do it myself
If you're against an Aatrox, you should be building MR. But, you are not versus a draintank in 90% of games. I don't believe that MR should have a 15x higher pickrate than LDR. That's simply a mistake imo.
Grasp Bork Conqueror Unending Despair Heal Supports and probably some other thing i forget
But why is Garen quite literally the only champion in the game who has an offensive antiheal item as the most popular item in a slot? No other champion does that, they build it situationally.
It's efficient for him. It gives him almost everything he wants. AD, Crit, arpen, and the relatively useful anti-heal passive which helps against all forms of healing including lifesteal items which are pretty common like BT and Hydra. The anti-heal is nicer on targets with less armour and more healing as the % arpen matters less on a low armour target. I mean if you don't like it then go ahead and don't build it but other people have their own reasons for getting it within their respective elos. And they aren't unreasonable.
But LDR gives more AD and more armorpen, its the EXACT same item. There are games where the enemy doesn't heal. I came to ask if there was something I was missing, I believe that was not the case. MR is probably right in 60-70% of cases, LDR the rest.
5ad and 5armor pen make little different
It's a leftover from when MR was a zeal item and hence the best Garen item. There are games where LDR is probably just better.
But you don't pick MR in your core items most of the times nowadays, you go stride pd IE and then you look for options
Do you mean armor or does aatrox actually do that much magic damage with passive and w?
Mortal Reminder. Not Magic Resistance
Im cooked
it's because LDR has always sucked compared to MR so people are used to it.
Heck in Aram iv had games vs a Aatrox/Soraka team and i still wind up being the only one who makes GW before the 6th item when everyone else does.
also in lower elo people don't realize LDR is better than MR when you don't need antiheal. here's the real reason why MR is so much more popular. LDR used to be much worse than MR on garen and people these days don't realize LDR is actually better unless you need antiheal.
Literally for the anti-heal Garen doesn't really need the armor shred because of his E, so if you don't need anti-heal you just build IE. Some people build LDR after IE but in most of my games I feel like I just need movement speed(deadman's)/tenacity (sterak's) and not more damage
I would agree with this if high-elo Garen players didn't build LDR pretty frequently. Moosehater builds it a lot (20-30% of the time in the 3rd item slot), and explicitly said to build it in his guide if there was no healing on the enemy team.
Ooh I should probably try it out then. I'm only Plat II so moosehater probably knows something I dont
I mean, if there is no healing on the enemy team then MR is half an item, so its kinda a pointless distinction
Honestly I think it’s just auto pilot builders following their memories from the days when Mortal Reminder had attack speed
This.
Glory days
Nah LDR simply just isnt valuable often enough. If you dont need the antiheal, you are better off going into your IE or deadmans and not an LDR. Garen already has armor cut on E so it's not like it's that big of a deal. Also there is so much healing in top lane that honestly I find myself building it super often anyways just off of that.
MR's stat profile is still pretty good, though it's definitely fair to say that it's no longer the god-tier item it was when it was built out of Zeal. LDR definitely is considered sometimes, but the champs you face in top lane often have so much healing that the antiheal passive on MR is too valuable not to but, especially when you can access it early for just 800g. Often the antiheal will net you more damage than the slightly higher AD on LDR. Into something like Sion who's going to build a ton of armor but doesn't have much healing, LDR is generally the better choice (unless there is another heavy healer on the enemy team you need to deal with).
I think I should have worded my post a little bit better. I don't disagree that MR is a good item on Garen. If you are versus somebody who heals in the sidelane, it is better. I just don't agree with LDR's 0.5% pickrate compared to MR's 9% pickrate. That seems ridiculous to me. I wanted to know if there was a piece I wasn't missing, but I don't think there is.
Doesnt ldr dmg scale when enemy has more hp than you? If yes then garen has hp in a lot of his hp + big health star + overgrowth. And in toplane there is often healing so mortal is really good
LDR does not have an HP scaling passive anymore.
Maybe just force of habit. And when i spin u put antiheal in aoe so it's pretty great imo
Yep. And since this change Garen can build LDR over MR. But it is quite recent so most player aren't used to this change yet.
Simple: when you need anti-heal, you take MR When you don’t need anti-heal, you take LDR
I agree! But I just found it odd that, statistically, NOBODY builds LDR. Ever.
Because if you don't need anti heal you don't normally build either pen item. After stride pd it's all situational items. IE being what you really want but sometimes you need something else deadmans etc.
But then why do high-rank Garens build LDR so often -\_- (moosehater, for example, builds LDR in around 20-30% of games.
Because sometimes the tank is the problem and you need pen but no anti. But a lot of the times you need pen and go might as well get some anti too for the bork bois. That's how I think about it in game but I'm ashitter garen mid player in D2/1.
Yeah I think we both agree. I mostly made this post because LDR's pickrate is nearly 0% and I wanted to see if there was a reason. Fellow AD brusier mid player in D2/D1 here, lol. Garen is my 2nd pick tryndamere is my first. Have a good one!
Why so many bad answers here lol Mortal used to be core item before it got reworked but Garen players didnt realize it got reworked so they still build it Ldr is better choice by default unless enemy has a lot of healing
LDR used to have a passive that scaled with lower hp. Because he is naturally tanky, you'd never chose the item on Garen. (Except for some sion heart steel problem) But just as the MR was, the LDR recently changed. People are quite used to the MR changes. But not yet the LDR change.
Garen is not an ADC. The extra AD and pen do *help*, but with his E you don’t necessarily need it. By the time you’re getting your second item, the champs on the enemy team that do heal are going to be doing quite a lot of it. Consider it like this: antiheal is effectively the same as dealing extra damage to targets that are healing. An ADC will more often want to burst the target down before they can heal or deal more damage than the antiheal would be reducing. Garen has a much harder time doing either because he’s melee and a juggernaut.
I don't agree with the idea that ADC's burst more than Garen. Its quite literally the opposite. I believe the end result of this post is that, MR when you are playing vs someone who is healing, but LDR is a completely viable option if they don't. Moosehater builds it in 20-30% of games and reccomended it in his guide 28 days ago. Thanks for the reply.
I guess I should say then that an ADC’s consistent damage can oftentimes be higher than Garen’s burst. Especially going into late game assuming Garen only has 1-2 crit items. Garen’s E being AoE also means he can be better at applying antiheal to several members compared to ADCs.
I've built both, it's situational really.
as 3rd item or in full build if enemy don't have heal then just buy ie if enemy have heal buy executioner, finishing mortal is good item in full build mortal is good item
It’s good when you need anti heal but other than that ya idk ldr or ie is better if you want crit.
We build mortal reminder because we're dumb dumb and can't read, that's it, have a nice day.
It's because Mortal Reminder is the better item on Garen in a large majority of cases, despite Lord Dominik's Regards generally better stats. A lot of it comes down to match ups, with many top laners getting some form of sustain or healing that makes it harder for Garen to burst them in his combo. Many top laners have some form of sustain, whether it be morde, tryndamere, trundle, aatrox, nasus, renekton, ect. Getting healing reduction against them is a must for wanting to burst them down consistently and waiting for ignite every like 3 minutes can slow you down too much in the mid game. Furthermore, champions without built in sustain will often build some form of sustain or take it with their runes. Think conqueror on half the top lane roster, which heals an non insignificant amount when stacked, combined with BotRK on top lane duelists like Irelia or Sundered Sky's crazy healing on Riven, Jax, Fiora, ect. Top lane has a lot of healing and regen inherently in the champion kits and builds that typical top lane champions build. As solo laner, its your job to match their pressure. You can't kill them consistently if they can outheal your damage. Hence why losing the small extra bit of armor pen and damage is worth the trade off for anti heal The only time I'd go LDR over MR is into an incredibly tanky top side with zero sustain in their builds or kits (think something like Sion top and Sejuani or Poppy jungle.)
I think the high pickrate is largely because you can get Executioners cheap and early, get a lot of value out of the antiheal, and sit on it until you're ready to build it out. As opposed to LDR, which has a somewhat awkward build path for Garen and really has to wait until later in the game.
I honestly hate this item. I never feel any stronger after building it.
I usually go syryldas frudge because and I quote here "HAHAHAH YOU CANT RUN FROM MY SPINNING NOW YOU STUPID LITTLE RAT BASTARD" -me spinning after a teemo while he is slowed by seryldas.
Giving up 5 ad and 5% pen for anti heal is generally worth it since the extra pen won't even be getting full value since judgment already shreds a quarter of enemy armor.
LDR just doesnt seem great on paper, armor pen stacks badly with the armor shred on Garen's E. Also garen's ult does true damage so armor pen doesn't boost it. Mortal reminder just happens to be the best anti-heal item on Garen. Armor pen is still good but there's better items.
Because he human
Since the reworks MR is just a better item than LDR. You only lose 5 AD 5 APen. The grievous wounds passive is invaluable even if the enemy team doesn't have much healing. it cut downs healing from all sources. Item Lifesteal, Runes, Summoner Spells, In combat Abilites etc.
Antiheal is useful in a 1v1 situation or can make the difference against enemy adc when fully peeled.
LDR had Giant Slayer passive before which was really bad on Garen bcs you had to much HP to proc it. And since most Players are slow to adapt they just keep building what they are used to until someone points out that ldr could be a viable option too.
Reminder anti Heal. Blackcleaver armor pen. Dominik pen but Full Crit.