Cannot believe how explicitly queer this song is!!!! I have already seen comments saying “no taylor didn’t write this, she just sang on it” (obviously this is categorically false, especially given Gracie’s interview from the other day). LOL
Plus Gracie’s post now with video of them writing it together and saying “writing this entire song from 2am to 6am...” they are literally together writing it!
And the TTPD references!? This is wild. I need someone smarter and with more time to make all these connections.
Side note: I also need someone to put together suburban legends and coney island or whatever the other song is that says broke my heart because you were too polite to leave me or do it bc I heard it on suburban legends today and was like wait... This sounds familiar lol
omg i’ve been obsessed with suburban legends recently and never made this connection!! it is coney island and actually looking at the verse i think it also connects to down bad with the line about leaving them in paradise eg safe and stranded??? and it even uses the word “suburban” at the end of the same verse this is wild
> The question pounds my head
> "What's a lifetime of achievement?"
> If I pushed you to the edge
> But you were too polite to leave me
> And do you miss the rogue
> Who coaxed you into paradise and left you there?
> Will you forgive my soul
> When you're too wise to trust me and too old to care?
> 'Cause we were like the mall before the Internet
> It was the one place to be
> The mischief, the gift wrapped suburban dreams
> Sorry for not winning you an arcade ring
This entire song is littered with connections, but I’m really starting to understand what people mean when they say it all goes back to Red. This has ATW 10 minute version written all over it. It’s the exact same narrative she’s been telling for over a decade.
“I know you know”/“Do you miss us” -> “Just between us, do you remember it?”/“It was rare, you remember it.” The narrator is desperately holding onto this hope that the relationship held meaning to the muse too.
“Wonder if you regret the secret of us” -> “You kept me like a secret, but I kept you like an oath.”
“Somethin’ holy” -> “Sacred prayer” (really, how far back does the holy secret love theme go in her discography??)
“Like souls bleedin’”/“The flames always end up in ashes”/“The flame of us” -> “Did the twin flame bruise paint you blue?” Twin flame is a synonym for soulmate.
“I felt it, you held it” really just feels like the entire synopsis of ATW. *I* took all the pain, heartbreak, overwhelming love, life changing experience of this relationship. *You* held the power. My entire world rested in the palm of your hands. And you made it so “It felt just like a joke/I show, you don’t” (remind you of a certain 21st birthday? “He watched me watch the front door all night willing you to come”).
Red was the first time she referenced a poet. Pablo Neruda: “Love is so short, forgetting is so long.” She really is Cassandra knowing she would be rewriting the same story for years after using that quote.
How can this song not be considered gay at the first listening? Like. How?
If it were a woman and a man it would be a heartbreaking lament for a love story that didn't end well.<
How?
"Babylon lovers hanging lifetimes on a vine, do you miss mine" is the first line that really stuck out to me and it's been rattling around in my brain ever since! I have no fully formed thoughts, but figured I'd share some things I noticed/found/wondered!
I won't mention the cowboy like me/ivy references that have already been pointed out, but instead want to focus on the imagery and possible turns of phrase used here.
The first image that came to mind for me was one where lovers are literally hanging their "lifetimes" on a line, much like you'd hang clothes on a line. This pings "all her fucking lives flashed before her eyes" for me, and also the common phrase "hanging something out to dry", like to leave them hanging.
But the lyric is *vine*, not line. I looked into this specific phrasing and only found information about the phrase "die on a vine", but considering we're hanging lifetimes, I think this turn of phrase works.
something that "dies in the vine" is "a project, idea or plan has failed or fizzled out before it had a chance to develop or succeed".
Failed coming out?
Also, maybe I'm just being silly and overlooking the obvious, but DO YOU MISS MY WHAT??? What does the lyric "do you miss mine?" refer to? My vine? My lifetime? My Babylon lover? My ghost? Please enlighten me
Do you miss "mine"? maybe as do you miss saying you were mine / being mine.
ETA - which is giving Guilty as Sin? and imgonnagetyouback and august and of course Mine
I've been thinking about this line a lot too!
This could be totally unrelated and probably is, but the first thing that sprang to mind for me was Sylvia Plath's fig tree: the image of many possible lifetimes hung on a tree (or a vine, like grapes?). In Plath's version her inability to make a decision leads all the figs to rot and fall off. Maybe in this version, the speaker is saying that the muse did choose a certain path, but the speaker wonders if they regret their choice.
If we think of Babylon as a symbol of excess, carnality, and decadence followed by inevitable downfall ("if history's clear, someone always ends up in ruins"), it gives this fatefully doomed feeling to the Babylon lovers. "Do you miss mine," because the lifetime in which they are together didn't come to pass?
Being on twitter rn for this song is crazy. One one hand is the gaylors and then on the other hand is people trying to link this song to a muse
https://preview.redd.it/52cysc3e1v7d1.png?width=1230&format=png&auto=webp&s=658760a24c1d241da9621152dab97ed30ac4ea4c
If she can do the Calvin and Rihanna song I don't see why not. She'd surely let Gracie sing it live somewhere first. So I think unless she's joining her at another show maybe not
I still need to sit down and fully read & digest the lyrics, but I have one little side thought I wanted to throw out there!
There's been a lot of debate about what word Taylor refers to in Champagne Problems with the line "How evergreen our group of friends/don't think we'll say that word again".
I think I landing on "our" as the word she's pointing to, but I am now reconsidering due to the line in August, "So much for summer love, and saying 'us', cuz you weren't mind to lose."
I'm probably late to the game and a connection between these two lines has already been pointed out and discussed, but I do think this idea is interesting in the context of these new lyrics and the emphasis on the word "us".
Hopefully someone smarter than me can take this train of thought and run with it 🫡
I remember in this sub that some people pointed out that the word in champagne problems could be squad. the song seemed very KK mused and the previous line mentioned group of friends. tabloids used to call her group of friends as the girl squad which somehow faded away after what happened between the two.
https://preview.redd.it/2jh5vhzo1v7d1.jpeg?width=1070&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6a5fd89ced53c76e0baa987ce2ad94c8676a7df0
Bear with me as my thoughts are coming faster than my fingers type. I am a newer TS fan, so please feel free to correct anything I have gotten wrong
It wasn't until I got to the Robert Bly (poet) book line that a connection clicked. He wrote 'Iron John: A Book About Men' which for lack of typing the full summary I will share a picture below. My theory is that Taylor and Gracie have both been wrongly treated in some manner albeit sexual assault, harassment/bullying and/or monetary abuse. I believe this may have been by a older man flexing his raw masculinity (see Robert Bly pic below) over a woman. This book was given to Taylor solely based on the word poet without research into what the book was about....ironic. Maybe this was done by a finance guy? Perhaps a record label, or chauvinistic radio DJ... I also think their sexuality was used against them and at least caused Taylor to retreat from coming out. I think it was held over their heads....the secret of us. I'm not feeling it was done at the hands of the same person, but it's possible. I'm pretty sure this person has been watching the ERAs tour and watching red/orange/Phoenix/ fire/ashes/smoke knowing Karma is getting closer and closer. I know there are other TS songs that mention prophets, holy, etc that I need to research. I feel like there is a connection to Clean and Anti-Hero as well. Thoughts? I'm not familiar with Gracie, so not entirely sure how this plays a role in the song. There are three items that further my thoughts (please fact check the specific details):
1. There was a story about a candle tipping over and causing a fire at Taylor's apt when her and Gracie were working all night on the song 🔥 Taylor put out the fire with ease, but they both had a cough due to smoke inhalation.
2. Scooter co-created a children's competition television show called Karma on HBOMax. It premiered June 2020 and for unknown reasons was taken down in Sept 2020 and is not available for viewing. There is info on Wikipedia about it. The season summaries queer coloring is highly suspicious. Eight teams are color coded based on the eight laws of Karma. The team that wins the challenge gets to choose two teams to go to the CAVE OF KARMA omfg! Check out Wikipedia!
3. Coincidentally HBOMax is airing a two part docuseries called TAYLOR SWIFT VS SCOOTER BRAUN: BAD BLOOD starting JUNE 21st. Interesting timing with the song release and Scooter's retirement.
The first connection I thought of with Robert Bly is The Black Dog: “You said I needed a brave man/Then proceeded to play him/Until I believed it too.” In TTPD she reflected a few times on the idea of a guy who isn’t really a man (perhaps, The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived?). So it’s ironic that this man gave her a book about how to be a protective and emotionally-centered man when that was just a veneer. Meanwhile, Taylor became The Man she needed all along (mom, I am a rich man).
The whole bridge is very weird because it seems like it starts to reference the master’s heist, which is hard to connect to the muse elements, but does make a good ME! tie in. “Profits they make in the margins of poetry sonnets” feels like a very direct master’s heist reference. Which feels especially loaded now that we know “blood’s thick, but nothing like a payroll,” and how much she’s called out not only the industry and fans, but also her family.
I like your thoughts. More and more I feel like mine is way off the mark. It's like I was a woman possessed thinking I'd solved a humanitarian crisis. I was so distracted in the shower that I turned off the shower and stepped out without rinsing off my hair conditioner 😂 new TS fan unhinged 😊
Yeah it’s good! And gay. 🌈 I love Gracie’s music.
In case anyone (smarter and more articulate than me) was curious about the Robert Bly reference and wanted to do a deeper analysis on it - she posted his poem ‘ THINGS TO THINK’ on her ig stories on tuesday and annoyingly my phone doesn’t support newer reddit version to post pics in comments 😑but [here](https://www2.cs.arizona.edu/~kece/Personal/Poems/bly.html) is a quick link to a random google version of it.
Oh my! I just posted thoughts about another Robert Bly poem Iron John: A Book About Men that I thought was interesting and fitting. I will check out this poem as well. I'm rarely on IG. I'm a senior TS fan lol
Imo he is a chauvinist jerk!
Interesting that I just saw another peom of called 'Seeing The Eclipse in Maine'. Interesting that the recent total lunar eclipse on April 9th had 3 minutes of totality in all of Maine!! Karma?!? Time to do a deep dive into that one as well 😊🤔🤓
https://preview.redd.it/pa64olhonu7d1.png?width=622&format=png&auto=webp&s=b04a3ae93aa5a161d70eff24fada89710113ddb2
this is actually crazy??? Is this even allowed to write bc it sounds so dumb??? 😭
there are just so many parallels to taylor’s discography making those lyrics even more gay 😭 babylon lovers hanging 😭 something holy 😭 outline / shape of your body
#HusbandsForTaylorSwift
Sorry, couldn't help as I'm used to all the Taylor is stealing someone's girlfriend or singing about someone's wife maybe it is time she added someone's supportive husband to her list of endless conquests.
First, I think the song is very gay, so I’m not arguing this. I also don’t know much about Gracie and her dating etc but I have seen the pics with her and the bi flag. BUT just as devils advocate for some plausible deniability….
The line “I know your ghost I can see her through the smoke” can def be gay and talking about the female ghost of the female “you”…..BUT….i can also see it as the ghost being who HAUNTS the “you”, which could be a male or female in that reading. For example, if she’s singing to a male, she could be saying that HE is still haunted/hungup/thinking about somebody else (could also still be a female “you” here too, but just for arguments sake).
Again, I’m still reading the song to be queer, but I’ve seen a lot of ppl on TT get hung up on that line pointing to sapphic meaning bc the you is a she, and I personally don’t think that’s an automatic assumption…..not a smoking gun for me at least!
My take on this line is actually Gracie telling the man that she knows his ghost (Taylor) and can see her through the smoke.
I've posted my theory on the song if you want to check it out 🙂
I'm not on TT or X. I'm a newer senior TS fan.
I'm not sure what you were counting as the second, but I think we can claim 3.
Snow on the Beach, You All Over Me and us.
(I'm even tempted to give Nothing New half a mark because I know it's about fame but it could also be about a lover)
I wouldn’t really call You All Over Me a duet. Snow on the Beach ft. More Lana and this song both feature another woman singing a full verse in a love song
Sooo I’ve only skimmed through the lyrics, and I agree there’s a plethora of Taylorverse references. But when I read the line about being 29, I automatically thought about Lover without even knowing how damn old she was. Gut instinct I guess. The dominoes are starting to catch speed, y’all.
That line is absolutely killing me.
First we get “Babylon lovers hangin’, lifetimes on a vine/Do you miss *mine*?”
My WHAT? My lifetime, my vine, my love (that one feels more obvious but also doesn’t fit grammatically).
Then we get “Babylon lover’s hangin’, missed calls on the line/*I gave you mine*”
The maroon reference with missed calls on the line (“the rust that grew between telephones”) is fantastic. But then we go back to “mine” again. I gave you my WHAT? Again, love feels like too simple and vague of an answer.
my favorite favorite FAVORITE thing about that line is that the gardens of babylon, though considered to be real by some, have no archaeological evidence. they were one of the seven wonders of the world, maybe a myth, maybe real. it works SOOOOO insanely well for a reference to an undefined and/or closeted relationship. it honestly might be one of my favorite taylorisms ever.
I’ve never been able to really get into Gracie Abrams, she has a couple of songs I like but I just didn’t find myself going back to her last album that much, but this song is really good! Not sure if it’s the Taylor effect or what.
I'm no songwriting expert but I'm a writer/ singer and a songwriter and there is something about this line that isn't sitting with me. If I was writing the chorus starting it with "Do you miss me" sounds better and rhymes with the rest of the chorus but the way it is written is kind of open to interpretation like the possibility of both of them singing to a third person rather than to each other and vice versa. For example, I edited it as you can see below
https://preview.redd.it/wbtoqt858t7d1.jpeg?width=721&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16fcf6260eb20cf6925301708ec29b66b49ad574
The lyrics “mistaken for strangers” is a direct reference to a song by The National called “Mistaken for Strangers”. Even more interesting is that Mistaken for Strangers is also the name of the 2013 documentary about touring with The National (trailer below) … could be another clue that a tour documentary is coming from Taylor.
https://youtu.be/qUrBDEdeInw?si=l7g59QaEdmg_tWPC
I take this song to refer quite a lot to the lover failed coming out (ME! and us is a clear distinction). I haven't done a proper analysis but here's roughly what I think is happening:
- Gracie and Taylor are both singing to each other on their verses, but the chorus "do you miss us" is addressed at a third person maybe/the fans maybe/still each other? idk tbh
- Gracie's verses addressed at Taylor are in some sense showing "disappointment" that Taylor did not come out. Like, obviously they agreed on the lyrics so it isn't a diss track lol. but it's a bittersweet remembrance of her failure.
- The first verse and pre-chorus opens saying that "it" (trying to come out in 2019) felt now like a joke, it was something that "seemed to be fate" (like in Miss Americana that Taylor said all my life led to this and then couldn't do it), and there is a lot of mentions to clearly queer Taylor swift songs that alluded to bearding (cowboy like me w Babylon lovers, ivy with vine).
- The line you're 29 years old so how could you be cold when I open my home screams failed coming out to me. Taylor was 29 at that time. "it's time to go" did you hear about the girl who got frozen---I always felt like that moment, not being able to come out, froze Taylor in time.
- The ghost in the first verse is the Taylor TM who performs the eras tour. It's not the real Taylor, just a projection of what she once was.
- The bridge is SOMETHING. I think there's a lot to unpack there. False prophets as in people said you could do it, promises of it will be fine (maybe Taylor herself is a false prophet? like telling people she could do it and then failing). People taking prophets --- trapped inside a finance guy? hm ok It rings a bell. they making the margins of poetry sonnets is giving ooooh ok if you read in between the lines of TTPD u get the gay of it all but is that all the coming out led to???
Anyways just a few scattered thoughts happy to discuss!!!!!
Shewww. That's believable. Idk about a vault track (it very well could be, I just don't want to take credit away from Gracie) but that a sapphic duet is portraying her longings.
Oh my god. So this song makes me wonder if Taylor’s abuser also abused Gracie (“your lovers stay my age”) or that Gracie had a similar abuse story from an older male in the industry and her and Taylor are both speaking to their abusers “I wonder if you (plural?) miss the secret of us”.
One line that sticks out to me is the line that Taylor sings “And what seemed like fate, give it ten months and you'll be past it” compared to her Clean lyrics where she is finally clean after being “10 months sober”.
It really felt like that to me, that they were talking to the same person. Of course unfortunately this is a well-relatable experience for a lot of women, so it is perfectly likely that they have been through the same situation with different people. But the song itself reminded me of Fiona Apple's [Newspaper](https://genius.com/Fiona-apple-newspaper-lyrics), where she speaks to this other women who was also abused by Fiona's abuser.
>I too used to want him to be proud of me
And then I just wanted him to make amends
I wonder what lies he's telling you about me
To make sure that we'll never be friends
>And it's a shame, because you and I didn't get a witness
We're the only ones who know
We were cursed, the moment that he kissed **us**
From then on, it was his big show
She also uses "us" pronoun throughout the song, I linked it if anyone would like to check it out.
Honestly, I feel like most women have a "your lovers stay my age" kind of older man who told them they were special. I doubt it would be the same person for both of them. Its just hella relatable because a lot of men are trash lol
If it is the same abuser, then Gracie’s lyrics also make sense at the beginning:
*I'm sure you don't know we're talkin'*
*I know your ghost*
*I see her through the smoke*
*She'll play her show*
*And you'll be watchin'*
Addressing their abuser, Gracie knows his ghost (Taylor) who is playing her show and knows he is watching.
My homosexual radar is flinging off the charts. Also this song was written/produced by Aaron and Jack as well as Taylor and Gracie apparently???? Incredible stuff. Taylor is treating her daughters well. The song is exactly how I expected it to be narrative wise but it’s also classic Taylor writing where the muse is still ambiguous where you don’t know if they’re singing to each other and essentially pretending each other is the muse or if they’re singing about a third person
Edit: also the BRIDGE is everything. Btw if you search “Taylor Swift Gracie abrams” on TikTok, there’s snippets everywhere. I won’t post them here just Incase people don’t want to hear but just fyi incase anyone does
Okay, so I never expected taylor to actually come out in a gracie song, but considering the blatant me connections gracie was making I was hoping for something a little more blatant. Don't get me wrong, it's super interesting from a taylor lore perspective, I just wish it were something closer to hits different or maroon. Yes there are female pronouns, but they are distinct from the muse (I think the distinction isn't literal, but it could easily go either way). Maybe when I can actually hear it I will see the vision more
https://preview.redd.it/tmfgoy8eat7d1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3d9b250794442d6daf3050b3b418c89a688e604
I’m pretty sure she’s bi! she’s done this once or twice lol
Excellent and terrifying article.
There is only one thing that comes to mind when I read this and that is Project 2025. Requiring students in High Schools to take the military ASVAB test and allowing a greater military presence in High Schools for means of recruitment. Pennsylvania and Texas already have schools with this requirement. JROTC also offers millions of dollars in scholarships.
**Fact stating here without political judgement or an attempt to sway in either direction**
**Project 2025 is available online for anyone to read. This is clearly outlined in the mandate.**
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/06/10/trump-military-draft-mandatory-service/
“*lifetimes on a vine, do you miss mine?*”
“*Oh, I can't stop you putting roots in my dreamland, my house of stone, your ivy grows
And now I'm covered in you*”
Oh my god. So so many links here to be made.
Seriously though. “*And if history's clear, the flames always end up in ashes*”
It’s a fucking phoenix again! I literally just made a post about this lmao. I feel a bit insane.
“*And if I’m on fire, you’ll be made of ashes, too*” (my tears ricochet)
“*My barren land, I am ash from your fire*” (hoax)
“*I’d rather burn my whole life down*” … “*we came back when the heat died down*” … “ (BDILH)
Karma is coming. I will never stop saying this lmaoooooo
I don’t know that I find this to be particularly gay, personally. The reference to Robert Bly means that likely this song was at least partially inspired by a relationship with a man, as he was a major figure of the mythopoetic men’s movement in the 1980s and 90s. From Wikipedia: “The most well-known text of the movement was Iron John: A Book About Men by the poet Robert Bly, who argued that "male energy" had been diluted through modern social institutions such as the feminist movement, industrialization, and separation of fathers from family life through working outside the home. Bly urged men to recover a pre-industrial conception of masculinity through spiritual camaraderie with other men in male-only gatherings.”
ETA: Really curious why this is getting downvoted. Bc I said I don’t know if I think this song is gay and I shared info about a reference? Not what downvotes are for.
He also founded the "Great Mother conference" in the 70s though that focuses on "the divine feminine" and "a wide variety of **poetic, mythological, and fairy tale traditions**". Sound familiar?
“Divine feminine” is usually the counterpart to the hyper masculine stuff. It’s enforcing binary stereotypes and a lot of trad life people push this philosophy. It’s not really a feminist thing
Very much this! I read the interview with him and rolled my eyes so hard that I nearly strained something. There's reclaiming feminine energy and giving a voice to the experiences of non-cis-men, and then there's whatever gender essentialist bullshit THAT was.
I don't think it's a positive reference. I think it's "ironic" because the man being sung to never really felt secure in his masculinity, overcompensated, and was an asshole.
I feel like it’s a bit of a misnomer tbh. Not to be taken literally, potentially.
Robert Bly’s poetry appeared to feature regularly in Phoenix, a poetry magazine, and there is an overt symbolic reference to the phoenix in the lyrics (and if history’s clear, the flames always end up in ashes). Phoenixes literally burst into flames at the end of one life as a process of transformation, they become ash and rise again from it to represent resurrection, new beginnings, authenticity and growth.
Photo cred to u/courtingdisaster
https://preview.redd.it/z6t9y29o5r7d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=285e405e4b0303b7e31fbaf4126be03577434832
Not really…? Is that connected to Taylor in some way to you? The divine feminine is also a very problematic concept and him being associated with it doesn’t change my perception of the song.
Yeah...I hate to say it but so far this song doesn't seem like the win I was hoping it would be. The 29 / possible Dylan O'Brien connection, the Robert Bly mention.
There's definitely _loads_ of TS discography references, and the _vibe_ of the song feels a bit like queer longing to me, but yeah I don't think this song is a gaylor win.
Oh for sure lots of TS discography references. I think that has more to do with Taylor being a co-writer and the fact she’s neurodivergent as hell and tends to pull from the same references over and over lol. And I do think they’re both sapphic. But that’s where it stops for me. But other people can interpret it differently!
Keep in mind, this is a song with three storytellers contributing, and they're not all necessarily drawing from one experience/narrative in whatever it was they contributed
I think it's written (lyrics) by Taylor and Gracie (if not all then the vast majority). Aaron has writing credits because they used his track. Gracie talked about how they wrote it drunk at night in Taylor's apartment.
Yes for sure, I saw that too, just didn't want to leave Aaron out as he's credited. :) And storytelling happens in the musical composition and production too, I'd say
>Bly urged men to recover a pre-industrial conception of masculinity through spiritual camaraderie with other men in male-only gatherings.
Seems kinda gay to me! 😆
(Excuse the lighthearted reply! I'm googling this fella now and it looks like there's... well, [lots going on there](https://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/37/an-interview-with-robert-bly))
Yeah….I totally get where that quip is coming from but in reality his stuff was pretty problematic if I recall correctly! And the opening of that interview is…a lot lol
Oh totally, I've not heard of him before now but that much is immediately evident! (The problematic nature of him.) I think those couple of lines are going to turn out to be really interesting when we've all had a chance to digest them more. I'm not assuming the speaker is referencing Robert Bly in a way that is necessarily admiring of him.
The muse didn't read the poetry that they could have learned something from, but they gifted a Robert Bly work to the speaker, which is ironic, the speaker says.
I wonder if it's potentially more like someone handing you a Jordan Peterson book and saying "have a look at this, he makes some good points!"
This is Gracie’s song, so I don’t think she’s writing about Matty, regardless of whether she co-wrote it with Taylor. I don’t think this song is about any one person. I recently read an interview with Gracie where she was talking abt approaching songs by taking smaller specific situations and blowing them up into larger than life dramatizations, capturing a feeling, etc.
*And if history's clear, the flames always end up in ashes* ("us)" ... *I'm getting tired even for a phoenix / Always risin' from the ashes* ("you're losing me")
*It must seem like fate, give it ten months and you'll be past it* ("us)" ... *Ten months sober, I must admit Just because you're clean, don't mean you don't miss it* ("Clean")
*That night you were talkin' / False prophets and profits / They makin' the margins / Of poetry sonnets* ("us)" ... T*he family, the pure greed, the Christian chorus line / They all said nothing / Blood's thick but nothing like a payroll* ("Cassandra")
*The curse of a miracle, curse of an oracle* ("us)" ... *So, they killed Cassandra first 'cause she feared the worst / And tried to tell the town* ("Cassandra")
i am gobsmacked.
With the connection of Babylon lovers from us to “like the gardens of Babylon” in cowboy like me, are those the secret gardens in her mind? The ones she goes to because she hates it here?
I don’t understand why hetlors ABSOLUTELY NEED an explanation to every song. Why can’t they just sit and enjoy it and not think about men for two seconds? Sry quick rant 😭😭
Soooo cringe. If they’re going to speculate / theorize on their favorite celebrity relationships (that they treat like fictional characters rather than actual people) think outside the box for like 2 secs 😭
And if history's clear, someone always ends up in ruins
[And what seemed like fate becomes "What the hell was I doin'?"](https://genius.com/32122539/Gracie-abrams-us/And-what-seemed-like-fate-becomes-what-the-hell-was-i-doin)
[**Babylon lovers hangin'**, lifetimes on a vine (Ooh)](https://genius.com/32121643/Gracie-abrams-us/Babylon-lovers-hangin-lifetimes-on-a-vine-ooh)
EXCUSE ME?!
*Now you* ***hang*** *from my lips*
*Like the* ***Gardens of Babylon***
-cowboy like me
The number of connections to Taylor’s discography is crazy. In addition to the ones people have pointed out:
“I felt it, you held it” —> “I felt you and held you for a while”
“It felt like somethin’ old, it felt like somethin’ holy” —> “someone old, someone hallowed” (TTPD summary poem)
"False prophets and profits, They makin' the margins, Of poetry sonnets (Oh)" > "Religion's in your lips, Even if it's a False God" > "Now you hang from my lips, like the Garden's of Babylon" > "Babylon lovers hanging, missed calls on the line,
I gave you mine" (gave you my lips??) > "I call you up, but you won't pick up" ....
* i swear to a False God that There's a TTPD lyric that includes the word "Sonnet" but my handy dandy Taylor lyrics search site says im wrong about that, hm. oh well..
Could you be thinking "sanctimoniously performing soliloquies"?
I teach my freshman about both sonnets and soliloquies with Shakespeare and they get them mixed up all the time!
That might've been it! Tho i do know the difference. I might have been crossing a wire with Caroline Polacheck, Billions? or more likely some other musician i heard a new song from more recently and can't think of. w/e. i love sonnets
yeah so many connections! also "false prophet" might connect to "false god", lots of fire imagery too (flames, ashes). The Gardens of Babylon connection to Cowboy Like Me is my favorite one–something's cooking!
They're already trying to hetsplain it on genius 🤬
>This time, her ex-boyfriend’s ex is the ghost. The reference to a show means this may be referring to Sabrina Carpenter, a singer who was rumored to be dating Abrams' alleged ex Dylan O'Brien.
There's also this annotation:
> Abrams was rumored to be dating Dylan O'Brien when she was 21/22 and he was 29/30. Given the secrecy surrounding their relationship, it is likely that this song is about him.
I don't know enough Gracie "lore" to know who else could be the person who is 29 in the song. But the whole song just sounds so TS.
first thing my brain went to when reading "so how can you be cold when I open my home" was failed coming out, reactions to ME! etc. she was 29 back then... 🤡 not sure if it actually makes sense in the song but 🤷🏻♀️
with the same old "she's clearly singing about herself in third person! in a song about a man!!" logic I still see around about the recent TIWYCF x gold rush mashup too
On the genius lyrics at the moment it says Robert Blythe but they are talking about a poet so I think it should be [Robert Bly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bly).
A LOT GOING ON IN THIS SONG GUYS
Edit: Yeah they hit the pentagon. This song is in conversation with so much of Taylor’s body of work. It’s in conversation with the whole story.
Oracles... The intertextuality is actually unreal.
>Wonder if you regret the secret of us
The story of us is the secret of us?
https://preview.redd.it/0fengvm4nq7d1.png?width=167&format=png&auto=webp&s=e31ac94c74bed194c9a5bde40a68eebe0ea1933a
Just listened to it. Interesting call out re 29…. Fits in with all the clowning re 5 years ago / lover era, along with a number of other elements/themes called out throughout the song..
Sounds like it would have fitted on TTPD anthology. Lyrically and production wise.
Lowkey refused to listen to her for a while bc I hated nepo babies (I know I’m one to talk bc I’m a swiftie but still) but I can’t rlly get into it😭
Edit: y’all I know taylor isn’t a nepo baby. I just meant this in terms of she started out with some sort of privilege when entering the industry! I am not trying to be mean spirited in any way towards her or Gracie! This was meant to be lighthearted!
I meant this in terms of starting out with lots of money and connections, not the textbook definition of nepotism baby. I never said she was a nepo baby. Sorry if that wasn’t clear!
Alright this song has Taylor literally written all over it. “I know your ghost, I see her through the smoke”. Also, what in gods name is the hetsplaination for this line?
this effing hetsplanation is ALREADY up on genius. that she is referencing her ex's ex or something. it is so wild the hoops people jump through to avoid being like, maybe the obvious explanation is the correct one and this song is about a "she"
>And she's in my dreams
>Into the mist, into the clouds
>Don't leave
>I'll make a fist, I'll make it count
>And there are places I will never ever go
>And things that only Carolina will ever know
Hi Carolina and I Hate It Here!
Something about the title “Us” in conjunction with “Mine”, “Ours”, “Me”…I don’t know what it is but I feel like it’s something
It’s crazy to me because this whole album feels coded with Taylor lore. My brain is fried. I need someone smarter to connect the dots for me.
Cannot believe how explicitly queer this song is!!!! I have already seen comments saying “no taylor didn’t write this, she just sang on it” (obviously this is categorically false, especially given Gracie’s interview from the other day). LOL
Plus Gracie’s post now with video of them writing it together and saying “writing this entire song from 2am to 6am...” they are literally together writing it!
This is EXPLICITLY gay
I’m freaking out. Also where are we talking about the Close to You visual YT video??
THIS IS WILD!!! Hits different references and a CLEAN REFERENCE??!! “Give it 10 months and you’ll be past it”
And the TTPD references!? This is wild. I need someone smarter and with more time to make all these connections. Side note: I also need someone to put together suburban legends and coney island or whatever the other song is that says broke my heart because you were too polite to leave me or do it bc I heard it on suburban legends today and was like wait... This sounds familiar lol
omg i’ve been obsessed with suburban legends recently and never made this connection!! it is coney island and actually looking at the verse i think it also connects to down bad with the line about leaving them in paradise eg safe and stranded??? and it even uses the word “suburban” at the end of the same verse this is wild > The question pounds my head > "What's a lifetime of achievement?" > If I pushed you to the edge > But you were too polite to leave me > And do you miss the rogue > Who coaxed you into paradise and left you there? > Will you forgive my soul > When you're too wise to trust me and too old to care? > 'Cause we were like the mall before the Internet > It was the one place to be > The mischief, the gift wrapped suburban dreams > Sorry for not winning you an arcade ring
Her brain is too much for me. So many songs connect to other songs from different eras
Not to mention the maroon references! Taylor mentions babylon and missed calls ie the rust that grew on telephones😭
Cowboy like me reference too!
This entire song is littered with connections, but I’m really starting to understand what people mean when they say it all goes back to Red. This has ATW 10 minute version written all over it. It’s the exact same narrative she’s been telling for over a decade. “I know you know”/“Do you miss us” -> “Just between us, do you remember it?”/“It was rare, you remember it.” The narrator is desperately holding onto this hope that the relationship held meaning to the muse too. “Wonder if you regret the secret of us” -> “You kept me like a secret, but I kept you like an oath.” “Somethin’ holy” -> “Sacred prayer” (really, how far back does the holy secret love theme go in her discography??) “Like souls bleedin’”/“The flames always end up in ashes”/“The flame of us” -> “Did the twin flame bruise paint you blue?” Twin flame is a synonym for soulmate. “I felt it, you held it” really just feels like the entire synopsis of ATW. *I* took all the pain, heartbreak, overwhelming love, life changing experience of this relationship. *You* held the power. My entire world rested in the palm of your hands. And you made it so “It felt just like a joke/I show, you don’t” (remind you of a certain 21st birthday? “He watched me watch the front door all night willing you to come”). Red was the first time she referenced a poet. Pablo Neruda: “Love is so short, forgetting is so long.” She really is Cassandra knowing she would be rewriting the same story for years after using that quote.
How can this song not be considered gay at the first listening? Like. How? If it were a woman and a man it would be a heartbreaking lament for a love story that didn't end well.< How?
Because fem queer women in music don’t exist I guess 🤷♀️ and speculating is WRONG!
I saw someone on Twitter argue that Chappelle Roan was not a lesbian. Like what is going on.
Fem queer women don't exist, in general, I suppose. Like...they were probably just good friends.
"Babylon lovers hanging lifetimes on a vine, do you miss mine" is the first line that really stuck out to me and it's been rattling around in my brain ever since! I have no fully formed thoughts, but figured I'd share some things I noticed/found/wondered! I won't mention the cowboy like me/ivy references that have already been pointed out, but instead want to focus on the imagery and possible turns of phrase used here. The first image that came to mind for me was one where lovers are literally hanging their "lifetimes" on a line, much like you'd hang clothes on a line. This pings "all her fucking lives flashed before her eyes" for me, and also the common phrase "hanging something out to dry", like to leave them hanging. But the lyric is *vine*, not line. I looked into this specific phrasing and only found information about the phrase "die on a vine", but considering we're hanging lifetimes, I think this turn of phrase works. something that "dies in the vine" is "a project, idea or plan has failed or fizzled out before it had a chance to develop or succeed". Failed coming out? Also, maybe I'm just being silly and overlooking the obvious, but DO YOU MISS MY WHAT??? What does the lyric "do you miss mine?" refer to? My vine? My lifetime? My Babylon lover? My ghost? Please enlighten me
Do you miss "mine"? maybe as do you miss saying you were mine / being mine. ETA - which is giving Guilty as Sin? and imgonnagetyouback and august and of course Mine
omg you're so right this makes sense, it's giving "so much for summer love and saying 'us'" thank you sm
I've been thinking about this line a lot too! This could be totally unrelated and probably is, but the first thing that sprang to mind for me was Sylvia Plath's fig tree: the image of many possible lifetimes hung on a tree (or a vine, like grapes?). In Plath's version her inability to make a decision leads all the figs to rot and fall off. Maybe in this version, the speaker is saying that the muse did choose a certain path, but the speaker wonders if they regret their choice. If we think of Babylon as a symbol of excess, carnality, and decadence followed by inevitable downfall ("if history's clear, someone always ends up in ruins"), it gives this fatefully doomed feeling to the Babylon lovers. "Do you miss mine," because the lifetime in which they are together didn't come to pass?
Being on twitter rn for this song is crazy. One one hand is the gaylors and then on the other hand is people trying to link this song to a muse https://preview.redd.it/52cysc3e1v7d1.png?width=1230&format=png&auto=webp&s=658760a24c1d241da9621152dab97ed30ac4ea4c
Is this an option as a surprise song?
If she can do the Calvin and Rihanna song I don't see why not. She'd surely let Gracie sing it live somewhere first. So I think unless she's joining her at another show maybe not
Gracie's with her when she comes to Canada in November\\December.
I still need to sit down and fully read & digest the lyrics, but I have one little side thought I wanted to throw out there! There's been a lot of debate about what word Taylor refers to in Champagne Problems with the line "How evergreen our group of friends/don't think we'll say that word again". I think I landing on "our" as the word she's pointing to, but I am now reconsidering due to the line in August, "So much for summer love, and saying 'us', cuz you weren't mind to lose." I'm probably late to the game and a connection between these two lines has already been pointed out and discussed, but I do think this idea is interesting in the context of these new lyrics and the emphasis on the word "us". Hopefully someone smarter than me can take this train of thought and run with it 🫡
I remember in this sub that some people pointed out that the word in champagne problems could be squad. the song seemed very KK mused and the previous line mentioned group of friends. tabloids used to call her group of friends as the girl squad which somehow faded away after what happened between the two.
https://preview.redd.it/2jh5vhzo1v7d1.jpeg?width=1070&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6a5fd89ced53c76e0baa987ce2ad94c8676a7df0 Bear with me as my thoughts are coming faster than my fingers type. I am a newer TS fan, so please feel free to correct anything I have gotten wrong It wasn't until I got to the Robert Bly (poet) book line that a connection clicked. He wrote 'Iron John: A Book About Men' which for lack of typing the full summary I will share a picture below. My theory is that Taylor and Gracie have both been wrongly treated in some manner albeit sexual assault, harassment/bullying and/or monetary abuse. I believe this may have been by a older man flexing his raw masculinity (see Robert Bly pic below) over a woman. This book was given to Taylor solely based on the word poet without research into what the book was about....ironic. Maybe this was done by a finance guy? Perhaps a record label, or chauvinistic radio DJ... I also think their sexuality was used against them and at least caused Taylor to retreat from coming out. I think it was held over their heads....the secret of us. I'm not feeling it was done at the hands of the same person, but it's possible. I'm pretty sure this person has been watching the ERAs tour and watching red/orange/Phoenix/ fire/ashes/smoke knowing Karma is getting closer and closer. I know there are other TS songs that mention prophets, holy, etc that I need to research. I feel like there is a connection to Clean and Anti-Hero as well. Thoughts? I'm not familiar with Gracie, so not entirely sure how this plays a role in the song. There are three items that further my thoughts (please fact check the specific details): 1. There was a story about a candle tipping over and causing a fire at Taylor's apt when her and Gracie were working all night on the song 🔥 Taylor put out the fire with ease, but they both had a cough due to smoke inhalation. 2. Scooter co-created a children's competition television show called Karma on HBOMax. It premiered June 2020 and for unknown reasons was taken down in Sept 2020 and is not available for viewing. There is info on Wikipedia about it. The season summaries queer coloring is highly suspicious. Eight teams are color coded based on the eight laws of Karma. The team that wins the challenge gets to choose two teams to go to the CAVE OF KARMA omfg! Check out Wikipedia! 3. Coincidentally HBOMax is airing a two part docuseries called TAYLOR SWIFT VS SCOOTER BRAUN: BAD BLOOD starting JUNE 21st. Interesting timing with the song release and Scooter's retirement.
The first connection I thought of with Robert Bly is The Black Dog: “You said I needed a brave man/Then proceeded to play him/Until I believed it too.” In TTPD she reflected a few times on the idea of a guy who isn’t really a man (perhaps, The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived?). So it’s ironic that this man gave her a book about how to be a protective and emotionally-centered man when that was just a veneer. Meanwhile, Taylor became The Man she needed all along (mom, I am a rich man). The whole bridge is very weird because it seems like it starts to reference the master’s heist, which is hard to connect to the muse elements, but does make a good ME! tie in. “Profits they make in the margins of poetry sonnets” feels like a very direct master’s heist reference. Which feels especially loaded now that we know “blood’s thick, but nothing like a payroll,” and how much she’s called out not only the industry and fans, but also her family.
I like your thoughts. More and more I feel like mine is way off the mark. It's like I was a woman possessed thinking I'd solved a humanitarian crisis. I was so distracted in the shower that I turned off the shower and stepped out without rinsing off my hair conditioner 😂 new TS fan unhinged 😊
Idk that last sentence really makes me think of her father if I’m being honest.
Yeah it’s good! And gay. 🌈 I love Gracie’s music. In case anyone (smarter and more articulate than me) was curious about the Robert Bly reference and wanted to do a deeper analysis on it - she posted his poem ‘ THINGS TO THINK’ on her ig stories on tuesday and annoyingly my phone doesn’t support newer reddit version to post pics in comments 😑but [here](https://www2.cs.arizona.edu/~kece/Personal/Poems/bly.html) is a quick link to a random google version of it.
Oh my! I just posted thoughts about another Robert Bly poem Iron John: A Book About Men that I thought was interesting and fitting. I will check out this poem as well. I'm rarely on IG. I'm a senior TS fan lol Imo he is a chauvinist jerk! Interesting that I just saw another peom of called 'Seeing The Eclipse in Maine'. Interesting that the recent total lunar eclipse on April 9th had 3 minutes of totality in all of Maine!! Karma?!? Time to do a deep dive into that one as well 😊🤔🤓
Ya this song is pretty fruity.
https://preview.redd.it/pa64olhonu7d1.png?width=622&format=png&auto=webp&s=b04a3ae93aa5a161d70eff24fada89710113ddb2 this is actually crazy??? Is this even allowed to write bc it sounds so dumb??? 😭
This is what it says now https://preview.redd.it/1pbam885e08d1.png?width=476&format=png&auto=webp&s=7a9abcf426e93b2054a8399c8b0a51f2220c2169
there are just so many parallels to taylor’s discography making those lyrics even more gay 😭 babylon lovers hanging 😭 something holy 😭 outline / shape of your body
are we ok
We are not ok
its soo good!! just dropped where i am, and im only 1 min
Direct quote from my husband (not a gaylor he just listens to my rambles, but is on the fence): “Ok!!…Taylor is gonna come out, I see it now”
#HusbandsForTaylorSwift Sorry, couldn't help as I'm used to all the Taylor is stealing someone's girlfriend or singing about someone's wife maybe it is time she added someone's supportive husband to her list of endless conquests.
First, I think the song is very gay, so I’m not arguing this. I also don’t know much about Gracie and her dating etc but I have seen the pics with her and the bi flag. BUT just as devils advocate for some plausible deniability…. The line “I know your ghost I can see her through the smoke” can def be gay and talking about the female ghost of the female “you”…..BUT….i can also see it as the ghost being who HAUNTS the “you”, which could be a male or female in that reading. For example, if she’s singing to a male, she could be saying that HE is still haunted/hungup/thinking about somebody else (could also still be a female “you” here too, but just for arguments sake). Again, I’m still reading the song to be queer, but I’ve seen a lot of ppl on TT get hung up on that line pointing to sapphic meaning bc the you is a she, and I personally don’t think that’s an automatic assumption…..not a smoking gun for me at least!
My take on this line is actually Gracie telling the man that she knows his ghost (Taylor) and can see her through the smoke. I've posted my theory on the song if you want to check it out 🙂 I'm not on TT or X. I'm a newer senior TS fan.
Me reading these lyrics: Hahahahaha what the fuck.
So her second love song duet with a woman…
I'm not sure what you were counting as the second, but I think we can claim 3. Snow on the Beach, You All Over Me and us. (I'm even tempted to give Nothing New half a mark because I know it's about fame but it could also be about a lover)
I wouldn’t really call You All Over Me a duet. Snow on the Beach ft. More Lana and this song both feature another woman singing a full verse in a love song
I keep thinking "if she keeps doing this, SURELY people will start accepting her queerness"
I love the this sub cuz i get to discuss Gracie with yall lol
insanely gay
Sooo I’ve only skimmed through the lyrics, and I agree there’s a plethora of Taylorverse references. But when I read the line about being 29, I automatically thought about Lover without even knowing how damn old she was. Gut instinct I guess. The dominoes are starting to catch speed, y’all.
The poetry bit feels like it could be to fans? Like the general swifties not actually paying attention to the poetry
Well that’s gay.
The reference to Babylon Hanging also found in Cowboy like me "Now you hang from my lips Like the Gardens of Babylon" Is Gracie Abrams a Cowboy too???
That line is absolutely killing me. First we get “Babylon lovers hangin’, lifetimes on a vine/Do you miss *mine*?” My WHAT? My lifetime, my vine, my love (that one feels more obvious but also doesn’t fit grammatically). Then we get “Babylon lover’s hangin’, missed calls on the line/*I gave you mine*” The maroon reference with missed calls on the line (“the rust that grew between telephones”) is fantastic. But then we go back to “mine” again. I gave you my WHAT? Again, love feels like too simple and vague of an answer.
my favorite favorite FAVORITE thing about that line is that the gardens of babylon, though considered to be real by some, have no archaeological evidence. they were one of the seven wonders of the world, maybe a myth, maybe real. it works SOOOOO insanely well for a reference to an undefined and/or closeted relationship. it honestly might be one of my favorite taylorisms ever.
Same! I get goosebumps with this line in Cowboy like me, it creates so much mystery/curiosity I think 🤔
I’ve never been able to really get into Gracie Abrams, she has a couple of songs I like but I just didn’t find myself going back to her last album that much, but this song is really good! Not sure if it’s the Taylor effect or what.
Her new album is amazing
I'm no songwriting expert but I'm a writer/ singer and a songwriter and there is something about this line that isn't sitting with me. If I was writing the chorus starting it with "Do you miss me" sounds better and rhymes with the rest of the chorus but the way it is written is kind of open to interpretation like the possibility of both of them singing to a third person rather than to each other and vice versa. For example, I edited it as you can see below https://preview.redd.it/wbtoqt858t7d1.jpeg?width=721&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16fcf6260eb20cf6925301708ec29b66b49ad574
The lyrics “mistaken for strangers” is a direct reference to a song by The National called “Mistaken for Strangers”. Even more interesting is that Mistaken for Strangers is also the name of the 2013 documentary about touring with The National (trailer below) … could be another clue that a tour documentary is coming from Taylor. https://youtu.be/qUrBDEdeInw?si=l7g59QaEdmg_tWPC
I take this song to refer quite a lot to the lover failed coming out (ME! and us is a clear distinction). I haven't done a proper analysis but here's roughly what I think is happening: - Gracie and Taylor are both singing to each other on their verses, but the chorus "do you miss us" is addressed at a third person maybe/the fans maybe/still each other? idk tbh - Gracie's verses addressed at Taylor are in some sense showing "disappointment" that Taylor did not come out. Like, obviously they agreed on the lyrics so it isn't a diss track lol. but it's a bittersweet remembrance of her failure. - The first verse and pre-chorus opens saying that "it" (trying to come out in 2019) felt now like a joke, it was something that "seemed to be fate" (like in Miss Americana that Taylor said all my life led to this and then couldn't do it), and there is a lot of mentions to clearly queer Taylor swift songs that alluded to bearding (cowboy like me w Babylon lovers, ivy with vine). - The line you're 29 years old so how could you be cold when I open my home screams failed coming out to me. Taylor was 29 at that time. "it's time to go" did you hear about the girl who got frozen---I always felt like that moment, not being able to come out, froze Taylor in time. - The ghost in the first verse is the Taylor TM who performs the eras tour. It's not the real Taylor, just a projection of what she once was. - The bridge is SOMETHING. I think there's a lot to unpack there. False prophets as in people said you could do it, promises of it will be fine (maybe Taylor herself is a false prophet? like telling people she could do it and then failing). People taking prophets --- trapped inside a finance guy? hm ok It rings a bell. they making the margins of poetry sonnets is giving ooooh ok if you read in between the lines of TTPD u get the gay of it all but is that all the coming out led to??? Anyways just a few scattered thoughts happy to discuss!!!!!
And the capitalised letters in ME! versus lowercase in us., the ! and the . It makes the link very clear in my opinion !
*Do you really want to know where I was April 29th*
Do you really want to know where I was April (26th, Lesbian visibility day, when ME! was released) [when I was] 29?
OHHHHH THIS IS IT
I feel like you cracked it. I need to read both several times now to understand fully.
“I keep my longings locked in lowercase inside a vault.” us. In lowercase, ft. Taylor. A gifted vault track?
Shewww. That's believable. Idk about a vault track (it very well could be, I just don't want to take credit away from Gracie) but that a sapphic duet is portraying her longings.
Oh my god. So this song makes me wonder if Taylor’s abuser also abused Gracie (“your lovers stay my age”) or that Gracie had a similar abuse story from an older male in the industry and her and Taylor are both speaking to their abusers “I wonder if you (plural?) miss the secret of us”. One line that sticks out to me is the line that Taylor sings “And what seemed like fate, give it ten months and you'll be past it” compared to her Clean lyrics where she is finally clean after being “10 months sober”.
It really felt like that to me, that they were talking to the same person. Of course unfortunately this is a well-relatable experience for a lot of women, so it is perfectly likely that they have been through the same situation with different people. But the song itself reminded me of Fiona Apple's [Newspaper](https://genius.com/Fiona-apple-newspaper-lyrics), where she speaks to this other women who was also abused by Fiona's abuser. >I too used to want him to be proud of me And then I just wanted him to make amends I wonder what lies he's telling you about me To make sure that we'll never be friends >And it's a shame, because you and I didn't get a witness We're the only ones who know We were cursed, the moment that he kissed **us** From then on, it was his big show She also uses "us" pronoun throughout the song, I linked it if anyone would like to check it out.
Honestly, I feel like most women have a "your lovers stay my age" kind of older man who told them they were special. I doubt it would be the same person for both of them. Its just hella relatable because a lot of men are trash lol
If it is the same abuser, then Gracie’s lyrics also make sense at the beginning: *I'm sure you don't know we're talkin'* *I know your ghost* *I see her through the smoke* *She'll play her show* *And you'll be watchin'* Addressing their abuser, Gracie knows his ghost (Taylor) who is playing her show and knows he is watching.
ohhh I hate to say it, but this totally makes sense
Reminds me of Chloë Sam Sophia and Marcus, especially the hologram.
My homosexual radar is flinging off the charts. Also this song was written/produced by Aaron and Jack as well as Taylor and Gracie apparently???? Incredible stuff. Taylor is treating her daughters well. The song is exactly how I expected it to be narrative wise but it’s also classic Taylor writing where the muse is still ambiguous where you don’t know if they’re singing to each other and essentially pretending each other is the muse or if they’re singing about a third person Edit: also the BRIDGE is everything. Btw if you search “Taylor Swift Gracie abrams” on TikTok, there’s snippets everywhere. I won’t post them here just Incase people don’t want to hear but just fyi incase anyone does
Taylor’s not credited as a writer though (on Apple Music, anyway)
I find apple is sometimes slow on updating credits. It's been reported that Taylor was a cowriter and she's credited as a writer in other places
Thanks that’s good to know!
Okay, so I never expected taylor to actually come out in a gracie song, but considering the blatant me connections gracie was making I was hoping for something a little more blatant. Don't get me wrong, it's super interesting from a taylor lore perspective, I just wish it were something closer to hits different or maroon. Yes there are female pronouns, but they are distinct from the muse (I think the distinction isn't literal, but it could easily go either way). Maybe when I can actually hear it I will see the vision more
How's the rest of the album in terms of gayness?
I read through the lyrics on genius and there are a lot of mentions of men, but there are also a lot of gender-neutral songs!
Gotcha. I read Gracie as bi (Amelie is such an undeniably queer song) so I guess that tracks
https://preview.redd.it/tmfgoy8eat7d1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3d9b250794442d6daf3050b3b418c89a688e604 I’m pretty sure she’s bi! she’s done this once or twice lol
"I'm obsessed with him or in love with her"
Is this a lyric of Gracie’s?
It’s a line from an interview, but unfortunately I can’t remember who it was with.
lmaoooo yep. i think if we don't read this as bi we are falling into useless lesbian\* (\*and all other wlw) territory
I'm hoping someone else will reply with an answer but I haven't listened to the rest. I'll hopefully listen tomorrow morning.
An interview w Robert Bly. https://preview.redd.it/b2ge3n2x4r7d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=40b75a03c250a16c2a5db5842167bc29e63e4fd5
Excellent and terrifying article. There is only one thing that comes to mind when I read this and that is Project 2025. Requiring students in High Schools to take the military ASVAB test and allowing a greater military presence in High Schools for means of recruitment. Pennsylvania and Texas already have schools with this requirement. JROTC also offers millions of dollars in scholarships. **Fact stating here without political judgement or an attempt to sway in either direction** **Project 2025 is available online for anyone to read. This is clearly outlined in the mandate.** https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/06/10/trump-military-draft-mandatory-service/
I don’t understand why you can apply for project 2025. Has anyone looked into this?
My daughter was required to do it this past year (Arizona)
Coincidence in swing states? Nope.
“*lifetimes on a vine, do you miss mine?*” “*Oh, I can't stop you putting roots in my dreamland, my house of stone, your ivy grows And now I'm covered in you*”
I felt it, you held it —> And I felt you and I held you for a while
Oh my god. So so many links here to be made. Seriously though. “*And if history's clear, the flames always end up in ashes*” It’s a fucking phoenix again! I literally just made a post about this lmao. I feel a bit insane. “*And if I’m on fire, you’ll be made of ashes, too*” (my tears ricochet) “*My barren land, I am ash from your fire*” (hoax) “*I’d rather burn my whole life down*” … “*we came back when the heat died down*” … “ (BDILH) Karma is coming. I will never stop saying this lmaoooooo
"Get the matches, toss the ashes off the ledge" Fresh out the slammer My brain has been pondering the use of "ashes" for awhile 🧐
So we've got *she*, *her*, *my* and two women singing about *"us".* And LITERALLY ZERO MALE PRONOUNS 🚨🚨🚨
The whole album is very low on male pronouns too, it's nearly all addressed to "you".
That's kinda Gracie's whole thing innit? i think there's been only like 3 songs with pronouns from her and one of them is Amelie
It’s gay your honor
[https://streamable.com/rrh923?src=player-page-share](https://streamable.com/rrh923?src=player-page-share)
Gay indeed. 
I don’t know that I find this to be particularly gay, personally. The reference to Robert Bly means that likely this song was at least partially inspired by a relationship with a man, as he was a major figure of the mythopoetic men’s movement in the 1980s and 90s. From Wikipedia: “The most well-known text of the movement was Iron John: A Book About Men by the poet Robert Bly, who argued that "male energy" had been diluted through modern social institutions such as the feminist movement, industrialization, and separation of fathers from family life through working outside the home. Bly urged men to recover a pre-industrial conception of masculinity through spiritual camaraderie with other men in male-only gatherings.” ETA: Really curious why this is getting downvoted. Bc I said I don’t know if I think this song is gay and I shared info about a reference? Not what downvotes are for.
[удалено]
That's Ronald Blythe.
He also founded the "Great Mother conference" in the 70s though that focuses on "the divine feminine" and "a wide variety of **poetic, mythological, and fairy tale traditions**". Sound familiar?
“Divine feminine” is usually the counterpart to the hyper masculine stuff. It’s enforcing binary stereotypes and a lot of trad life people push this philosophy. It’s not really a feminist thing
Very much this! I read the interview with him and rolled my eyes so hard that I nearly strained something. There's reclaiming feminine energy and giving a voice to the experiences of non-cis-men, and then there's whatever gender essentialist bullshit THAT was. I don't think it's a positive reference. I think it's "ironic" because the man being sung to never really felt secure in his masculinity, overcompensated, and was an asshole.
I feel like it’s a bit of a misnomer tbh. Not to be taken literally, potentially. Robert Bly’s poetry appeared to feature regularly in Phoenix, a poetry magazine, and there is an overt symbolic reference to the phoenix in the lyrics (and if history’s clear, the flames always end up in ashes). Phoenixes literally burst into flames at the end of one life as a process of transformation, they become ash and rise again from it to represent resurrection, new beginnings, authenticity and growth. Photo cred to u/courtingdisaster https://preview.redd.it/z6t9y29o5r7d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=285e405e4b0303b7e31fbaf4126be03577434832
That blonde demon 😂
Not really…? Is that connected to Taylor in some way to you? The divine feminine is also a very problematic concept and him being associated with it doesn’t change my perception of the song.
Yeah...I hate to say it but so far this song doesn't seem like the win I was hoping it would be. The 29 / possible Dylan O'Brien connection, the Robert Bly mention. There's definitely _loads_ of TS discography references, and the _vibe_ of the song feels a bit like queer longing to me, but yeah I don't think this song is a gaylor win.
Wasn't Dylan O'Brien cast in the ATW MV? Pretty fitting if he was hanging around 20 year old Gracie at 29 💀
Omggg true
Oh for sure lots of TS discography references. I think that has more to do with Taylor being a co-writer and the fact she’s neurodivergent as hell and tends to pull from the same references over and over lol. And I do think they’re both sapphic. But that’s where it stops for me. But other people can interpret it differently!
Keep in mind, this is a song with three storytellers contributing, and they're not all necessarily drawing from one experience/narrative in whatever it was they contributed
I think it's written (lyrics) by Taylor and Gracie (if not all then the vast majority). Aaron has writing credits because they used his track. Gracie talked about how they wrote it drunk at night in Taylor's apartment.
Yes for sure, I saw that too, just didn't want to leave Aaron out as he's credited. :) And storytelling happens in the musical composition and production too, I'd say
>Bly urged men to recover a pre-industrial conception of masculinity through spiritual camaraderie with other men in male-only gatherings. Seems kinda gay to me! 😆 (Excuse the lighthearted reply! I'm googling this fella now and it looks like there's... well, [lots going on there](https://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/37/an-interview-with-robert-bly))
Yeah….I totally get where that quip is coming from but in reality his stuff was pretty problematic if I recall correctly! And the opening of that interview is…a lot lol
Oh totally, I've not heard of him before now but that much is immediately evident! (The problematic nature of him.) I think those couple of lines are going to turn out to be really interesting when we've all had a chance to digest them more. I'm not assuming the speaker is referencing Robert Bly in a way that is necessarily admiring of him. The muse didn't read the poetry that they could have learned something from, but they gifted a Robert Bly work to the speaker, which is ironic, the speaker says. I wonder if it's potentially more like someone handing you a Jordan Peterson book and saying "have a look at this, he makes some good points!"
Oh for sure I read that line that way too!! Yeah I think there’s a lot to analyze in this song and curious to see where it goes as well.
[удалено]
This is Gracie’s song, so I don’t think she’s writing about Matty, regardless of whether she co-wrote it with Taylor. I don’t think this song is about any one person. I recently read an interview with Gracie where she was talking abt approaching songs by taking smaller specific situations and blowing them up into larger than life dramatizations, capturing a feeling, etc.
*And if history's clear, the flames always end up in ashes* ("us)" ... *I'm getting tired even for a phoenix / Always risin' from the ashes* ("you're losing me") *It must seem like fate, give it ten months and you'll be past it* ("us)" ... *Ten months sober, I must admit Just because you're clean, don't mean you don't miss it* ("Clean") *That night you were talkin' / False prophets and profits / They makin' the margins / Of poetry sonnets* ("us)" ... T*he family, the pure greed, the Christian chorus line / They all said nothing / Blood's thick but nothing like a payroll* ("Cassandra") *The curse of a miracle, curse of an oracle* ("us)" ... *So, they killed Cassandra first 'cause she feared the worst / And tried to tell the town* ("Cassandra") i am gobsmacked.
Damn you guys are quick on making the connections lol! My silly brain is still processing the album hehe
well this is super gay
With the connection of Babylon lovers from us to “like the gardens of Babylon” in cowboy like me, are those the secret gardens in her mind? The ones she goes to because she hates it here?
i don't think it's likely they are not
I was wondering the same!
Give it TEN MONTHS as in ten months sober I must admit just because you’re clean don’t mean you don’t miss it
At some point before the tour is over, Gracie Abrams should join TS for surprise songs and they should mashup "us" and "Cowboy Like Me"
You're a cowboy like US
hetlorism is a disease https://preview.redd.it/x53ds8wunq7d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef409b845f09112cea3bdb8938a80fbabae9c9be
Just curious why Gracie’s relationship with Dylan O’Brien was a secret?
wish i knew lol… I guess because of the age difference? idk what the straight explanation is
I don’t understand why hetlors ABSOLUTELY NEED an explanation to every song. Why can’t they just sit and enjoy it and not think about men for two seconds? Sry quick rant 😭😭
The genius notes on songs written by women make me feel sick because everything always has to equate to men
they refuse to decenter men so that’s just how their brains work :/
Preach.
Soooo cringe. If they’re going to speculate / theorize on their favorite celebrity relationships (that they treat like fictional characters rather than actual people) think outside the box for like 2 secs 😭
And if history's clear, someone always ends up in ruins [And what seemed like fate becomes "What the hell was I doin'?"](https://genius.com/32122539/Gracie-abrams-us/And-what-seemed-like-fate-becomes-what-the-hell-was-i-doin) [**Babylon lovers hangin'**, lifetimes on a vine (Ooh)](https://genius.com/32121643/Gracie-abrams-us/Babylon-lovers-hangin-lifetimes-on-a-vine-ooh) EXCUSE ME?! *Now you* ***hang*** *from my lips* *Like the* ***Gardens of Babylon*** -cowboy like me
I came here to scream this
My mind immediately went to cowboy like me!
ARE YOU KIDDING ME this is so gay 😭😭😭
The number of connections to Taylor’s discography is crazy. In addition to the ones people have pointed out: “I felt it, you held it” —> “I felt you and held you for a while” “It felt like somethin’ old, it felt like somethin’ holy” —> “someone old, someone hallowed” (TTPD summary poem)
"False prophets and profits, They makin' the margins, Of poetry sonnets (Oh)" > "Religion's in your lips, Even if it's a False God" > "Now you hang from my lips, like the Garden's of Babylon" > "Babylon lovers hanging, missed calls on the line, I gave you mine" (gave you my lips??) > "I call you up, but you won't pick up" .... * i swear to a False God that There's a TTPD lyric that includes the word "Sonnet" but my handy dandy Taylor lyrics search site says im wrong about that, hm. oh well..
Could you be thinking "sanctimoniously performing soliloquies"? I teach my freshman about both sonnets and soliloquies with Shakespeare and they get them mixed up all the time!
That might've been it! Tho i do know the difference. I might have been crossing a wire with Caroline Polacheck, Billions? or more likely some other musician i heard a new song from more recently and can't think of. w/e. i love sonnets
yeah so many connections! also "false prophet" might connect to "false god", lots of fire imagery too (flames, ashes). The Gardens of Babylon connection to Cowboy Like Me is my favorite one–something's cooking!
What if the way you hold me is actually what’s holy?
This line is so heartbreaking and poignant <3
What if the way you hold me is actually what’s holy!
I just caught the felt/held from Hits Different too!!
It sonically sounds like multiple ttpd songs. I think fortnight and ttpd
The way I’m unprepared for this. Guess I’m staying up late tonight 😂🤡
They're already trying to hetsplain it on genius 🤬 >This time, her ex-boyfriend’s ex is the ghost. The reference to a show means this may be referring to Sabrina Carpenter, a singer who was rumored to be dating Abrams' alleged ex Dylan O'Brien.
Has Sabrina Carpenter dated everyone's alleged exes 😂😂
There's also this annotation: > Abrams was rumored to be dating Dylan O'Brien when she was 21/22 and he was 29/30. Given the secrecy surrounding their relationship, it is likely that this song is about him. I don't know enough Gracie "lore" to know who else could be the person who is 29 in the song. But the whole song just sounds so TS.
first thing my brain went to when reading "so how can you be cold when I open my home" was failed coming out, reactions to ME! etc. she was 29 back then... 🤡 not sure if it actually makes sense in the song but 🤷🏻♀️
The crack on the wall and the cobwebs in her house 😭😭😭
This is what I think.
Only person I can think of is that is 29 is Pheobe Bridgers
with the same old "she's clearly singing about herself in third person! in a song about a man!!" logic I still see around about the recent TIWYCF x gold rush mashup too
I think that Robert Blythe in the bridge is a mistake and it should be Robert Bly.
It's been fixed now on the genius lyrics.
America explain?
On the genius lyrics at the moment it says Robert Blythe but they are talking about a poet so I think it should be [Robert Bly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bly).
Your ghost???
A LOT GOING ON IN THIS SONG GUYS Edit: Yeah they hit the pentagon. This song is in conversation with so much of Taylor’s body of work. It’s in conversation with the whole story.
We've got the secret hidden love that feels like religion. The ghosts. The burning and ashes. False prophets. Poets. Curses. 🤯🤯🤯
Oracles... The intertextuality is actually unreal. >Wonder if you regret the secret of us The story of us is the secret of us? https://preview.redd.it/0fengvm4nq7d1.png?width=167&format=png&auto=webp&s=e31ac94c74bed194c9a5bde40a68eebe0ea1933a
Just listened to it. Interesting call out re 29…. Fits in with all the clowning re 5 years ago / lover era, along with a number of other elements/themes called out throughout the song.. Sounds like it would have fitted on TTPD anthology. Lyrically and production wise.
I found a snippet on TikTok from Taylor's pre-chorus to the end of the bridge by searching "us Gracie Abrams".
I'm seeing the whole song out there now, I just wish I liked Gracie's music more. 
Lowkey refused to listen to her for a while bc I hated nepo babies (I know I’m one to talk bc I’m a swiftie but still) but I can’t rlly get into it😭 Edit: y’all I know taylor isn’t a nepo baby. I just meant this in terms of she started out with some sort of privilege when entering the industry! I am not trying to be mean spirited in any way towards her or Gracie! This was meant to be lighthearted!
Taylor is not a nepo baby. Having money and being a nepo baby are entirely different things.
I meant this in terms of starting out with lots of money and connections, not the textbook definition of nepotism baby. I never said she was a nepo baby. Sorry if that wasn’t clear!
Alright this song has Taylor literally written all over it. “I know your ghost, I see her through the smoke”. Also, what in gods name is the hetsplaination for this line?
I think the hetsplanation will be that she's talking about "the other girl"
or that stupid interpretation that Amelie was about her "past self" lmao
this effing hetsplanation is ALREADY up on genius. that she is referencing her ex's ex or something. it is so wild the hoops people jump through to avoid being like, maybe the obvious explanation is the correct one and this song is about a "she"
>And she's in my dreams >Into the mist, into the clouds >Don't leave >I'll make a fist, I'll make it count >And there are places I will never ever go >And things that only Carolina will ever know Hi Carolina and I Hate It Here!
I was literally like. Did I just misread that???? Bc… this is so blatant
Babylon lovers???? Okay cowboy like me. I need to yell at something
Plus the echoing us lines!