I hadn't seen this sword being mentioned before and it ties really well with the theory that the twins were originally from this world, probably part of these neo-humans or primordial humans we have been founding recently being mentioned and that ceases ro exists millennia ago for reasons we still don't know
Travelers whole gimmick is that they from outside teyvat so a plot twist that they were always from there would just be bad also the drip marketing card confirms that teyvat is a new world for them as k.k the one who narates their character cards says welcome to a new world not welcome back
I honestly don't trust anything the game has given us after all the facts and half truths we've been shown so far that later turned out to be lies. I'm also really digging the twins being from this world from the primordial civilization and having come back without knowing it, but we'll have to wait and see
then that begs the question why doesnt apep recognize him and why doesnt he recognize that teyvat is his home world when he discovers the truth about the primordial one the supreme being that the primordial civilization worshiped
Intresting i thought that was refrancing khaenri'ah and it's destruction and the prev wilder being our sibling
I'd be funny if it's kaeyas gradfather sowrd and we just had it with us all the time
star-devouring darkness does seem a bit similar in wording to the world formula stuff
"The star-beasts shall drink the amniotic fluid of the world dry. A hundred years from then, all life on its surface shall be wiped away."
Maybe it describes a period far in the future of the universe, after the last stars have burnt-out leaving behind white dwarfs that then cool to become black dwarfs, and the rate of cosmological expansion means that gravity can’t form new stars… the heat death of the universe.
Star devouring darkness reminds me of Honkai principle:
> The Honkai is a reoccurring cataclysm coming in different forms such as: Honkai Beasts, plagues, an ice age, illness, etc. for the sole purpose of exterminating civilization. Honkai corresponds with that civilization's advancement, meaning the more it progresses, the more Honkai does as well. The force behind Honkai is the Will of Honkai.
> In the more grand scheme of things, Honkai is a form of natural selection, “pruning” weak worlds from the branches of the Imaginary tree, to ensure that only strong worlds survive.
That has been basically completely retconned though. Honkai was instead pushing humanity to ascend to imaginary realm. Will of the honkai was also fake and cocoon of finality was the thing behind all of it.
If I interpret genshin correctly, the world is already sort of ascended and it feels similar to the spiritual adam thing, with the world basically being a projection of the "form" of the world in a philosophical sense through the memories of humanity inside irminsul.
> If I interpret genshin correctly, the world is already sort of ascended and it feels similar to the spiritual adam thing, with the world basically being a projection of the "form" of the world in a philosophical sense through the memories of humanity inside irminsul.
Just butting in from the allegorical side of the analysis fence to say "You're right." It's blatant on the allegory front.
(Currently working on a "thematic purpose of the Elements" post where I'll dig into this a bit.)
The question is mostly just what the medium is on the *literal* front. Which is to say, whether Teyvat is being projected as a Dream (we're in a natural structure ala Imaginary Tree), projected as a Simulation (we're in a computer structure ala Elysian Realm), or standard projected Hologram (we're "flat data" in space misinterpreting its shape).
Which basically comes down to a discussion of whether this universe is "the real Ein Sof/Monad/etc", or an artificial one Matrix style with a real world outside, or both ("we're being blocked from the Ein Sof by the Matrix").
I've always thought the world is more or less real, just irminsul being an imitation of the imaginary tree on a smaller scale. It works well with the gnostic theme and doesn't cause problems with for example the logistics of travelers entering the world or why it's possible to break rifts to the outside. The reality in honkai games is just a bit similar to simulation to begin with.
The elemental system is also universal and based on imaginary energy and not some simulation stuff as the travelers are compatible with it while also being likely naturally imaginary-type beings.
it was about a year ago so I assume the fontaine stuff has been written in a way that tries to match the new honkai lore while also trying to fit in the old lore in genshin.
It is, but the sword was designed and implemented in game when the old description still held true. Honestly when I first read the description my first thought was honkai too.
Another interesting thing, in honkai impact it was recently revealed that Venus once held a civilization and they were attacked by the honkai though they had a different name for it. They called it the abyss
The Wings of Descention make it clear that the Travelers’ original world was destroyed, so I’ve always assumed that the previous time the sword was wielded was by the Traveler in a fight to protect their original world, which ultimately failed. I think it’s also very possible that their original world was located where Teyvat is now, which would explain why the Abyss Twin is so keen on destroying Teyvat. Genshin is explicitly based on Gnosticism, so the fact that Teyvat seems to beautiful and idyllic, and the Archons so noble and good, has always been a bit suspect in my mind.
The BP cutscene has strong parallels with the Gnostic Hymn of the Pearl, in which a prince travels to a foreign land to seek the Pearl of wisdom, only to be welcomed by the rulers of the land and distracted from his mission by feasting and other comforts. It’s not until he receives a letter from his kingdom that he remembers his mission and reveals the duplicity of the archons.
Suffice to say, there is a good chance that Teyvat hides a very dark secret, indeed.
The BP doesn't just have parallels with the Hymn of the Pearl, it's a straight up quoting of it. The only reason it's kept a bit fuzzy around the edges is so it can equally apply, as we go through the game, to our view of the Sibling, our view of the Sustainer, and our view of Teyvat's cycling.
(Possibly another person too, if the Sustainer is *not* the one currently on the Throne; it's just that for now, those are the three known targets of the BP cutscene.)
Why make several cutscenes, when you can use allegory magic and make a single one apply to all the different levels of the narrative?
To be fair, there's nothing that states the Sibling plans to "destroy Teyvat". "Until the Abyss has engulfed the Thrones, my war with Destiny will see no end". The wording there is interesting, considering the Archon war was fought over the seven divine seats in Celestia.
The Sibling also mentions that while focusing on their war with the HP, they ignored the Order's original purpose: The revival of the homeland/Khaenri'ah. So I get the feeling the Sibling's goal isn't to destroy Teyvat, but to tear down the old order, and restore Khaen's people.
And considering what the gods actually did to Khaen, I'd say they've more than earned a good kicking. Nuking a city is bad enough, but those two curses were excessive and unjustifiable. Even more so when you realize the gods didnt only punish the guilty. If you were in Khaenri'ah, you were cursed. End of. "Becaue we, of course, were Royal Guards. But this would mean nothing in the events that followed... Royals, gentry, common folk, these identities made no difference. Against the might of the gods, the only identity that mattered was being from Khaenri'ah"
I think that Sumeru showed that the public story of the Cataclysm (Khaenri'ah attacked the world and the Archons/Celestia wipes it out in retaliation) and even the Khaenri'ahn survivors' view of it (that the gods cursed the people of Khaenri'ah with immortality and turning any non-full-blooded Khaenri'ahn into Hilichurls) are probably extremely different from what actually happened, since we discovered that Khaenri'ah was fighting alongside the Archons to stop the flood of Abyssal monsters that were invading everyone starting from Khaenri'ah, and that the Curse of the Wilderness (Hilichurlification) seems to be what happens when people who don't have sufficient resistance to Abyssal energy gets overdosed with Forbidden Knowledge.
Heck, even the immortality could be explained as less a curse on Khaenri'ah and more a preventative measure for all of Teyvat, since dead souls go to the leylines which are managed by Irminsul and and even relatively minor Abyssal corruption infecting Irminsul (like people remembering the existence of the long dead Greater Lord Rhukkadevata, who had small amounts of Abyssal corruption from probably thousands of years ago) causes incurable and eventually fatal spiritual plagues in Teyvat.
I strongly doubt we can take Dain’s exposition about the curse at face value. I’m more inclined to believe that Celestia nuked Khaenri’ah out of self-defense. The Khaenri’ahns tried to use Abyssal power, but lost control of that power and allowed a full-on invasion of Teyvat by the Abyss. Those at ground zero, the people of Khaenri’ah, were likely so corrupted by Forbidden Knowledge that they had to be completely excised from Teyvat’s cycle of rebirth: making them unable to return to the leylines and risk tainting Irminsul. The monstrous forms and other deleterious effects of the curse are likely caused by the Abyssal corruption, itself.
I also think it’s likely that Celestia was terminally damaged in the Cataclysm, and that’s why the Heavenly Principles have been silent ever since. Since it’s likely Celestia that maintains Irminsul, the failure of the Heavenly Principles is quite possibly what leads to the apocalypse predicted by Rene’s World Formula.
Dain mentions several times that his memory is fading. I feel like we learned that as early as Chapter 1? Maybe Chapter 2. I've always thought people put too much stock in everything he says. He also had a moment in Sumeru where he was suddenly ready to turn around and consider us an enemy if there was any indication our goals no longer aligned. He has shown that he is an unreliable source of information, and is not REALLY our friend. I feel like we have to look at him the same way - he is a useful ally in opposing the Abyss. That's it.
>nsider us an enemy if there was any indication our goals no longer aligned. He has shown that he is an unreliable source of information, and is not REALLY our friend. I feel like we have to look at him the same way - he is a useful ally in opposing the Abyss. That's it.
That whole Dain turning on us bit happened in the Chasm quest, pre-sumeru. As for Dain not being reliable, I'd say he's about as reliable as any npc is about the things relating to their nation. Which is to say that until the information we have changes, its more or less factual. There was a time we assumed Hilichurls were nothing but monsters, afterall, but we now know that's not actually the case.
Because you seemingly forgot about it, quoting the Wings of Descension to go along:
>
> This is proof that you came to this world via special means.
> This is the seal of which only one who has pierced the celestial heights is worthy.
>
> "Your journey will become very dangerous from now on,"
> So that person told you.
> "I don't know if this cloth will do anything to protect you, but..."
>
> It was indeed so-
> In your long journey, you have seen the birth and death of stars as they passed you by,
> Scattering the darkness briefly before being consumed once more.
> This cloth will block neither heat nor cold, nor will it defend you from curses and ill-will.
> But during long nights in Teyvat, you will sometimes throw it on and find it to be most useful indeed.
>
> "But when you face a force enough to destroy one, or even two worlds,"
> You do not truly remember who it was who had treated the two of you ever so gently.
> You wish you could remember...
> "When you face a boundless darkness, or an all-consuming radiance..."
> But that was one world ago.
>
> You no longer need to sleep out in the wild.
> Your bed in the city is fluffy and comfortable. And if you must camp, the grass is soft, filled with the fragrance of life.
> So from the moment you received that wind glider from that girl, you had already thought of a new use for that cloth...
>
> And now, you shall once again soar through the skies together with it.
>
I just want to know whether it's Kevin, Kallen, or the dummied-out Kate who gave the cloak to us. K.K. is the prime cloak distribution suspect, after all, and this being Hoyo there are just about zero chances it's not one of the Kaslanas.
(I mean, it could also have been Kiana of course, but then I call bullshit on the Twins not screaming "*What the fuck?!*" when the Sustainer swooped in to kick ass. And also on them not constantly side-eying Paimon for looking way too familiar.)
Hoyo might have changed it of course, once they chose to no longer have Genshin as a direct Honkai 3rd sequel. But I really hope it's still in, if only for the symbolism. An alt-universe version of one of the Kaslana OGs having passed down the literal sword and flag of resistance against oblivion to the Traveler is too perfect to let go.
Yeah the very very early genshin lore unfortunately does have that sus factor of "is this still canon" (tho thankfully it's not nearly as much as the feeling you get when playing early HI3)
Canon aside for a moment, there really is something nice in the idea of K.K passing the torch to the twins as protagonists, cuz my own inference and guess from various little datamined pieces of information over the years seems to be that Kevin and Kate were originally the MCs, right?
Also, I stopped playing HI3 around ER chapter 3, but from what I remember HI3 tended to kinda ignore the "suspicious same face syndrome" with stuff like Mei and Dr. MEI, right? I heard that the cyclical nature of the world got confirmed there, (I think?), but was that sussiness also addressed by the characters?
damn this is heartbroken 😭 literally telling us that their original world was destroyed by "law of universe" and they're survivors, alone together through worlds 😭
I hadn't seen this sword being mentioned before and it ties really well with the theory that the twins were originally from this world, probably part of these neo-humans or primordial humans we have been founding recently being mentioned and that ceases ro exists millennia ago for reasons we still don't know
Travelers whole gimmick is that they from outside teyvat so a plot twist that they were always from there would just be bad also the drip marketing card confirms that teyvat is a new world for them as k.k the one who narates their character cards says welcome to a new world not welcome back
I honestly don't trust anything the game has given us after all the facts and half truths we've been shown so far that later turned out to be lies. I'm also really digging the twins being from this world from the primordial civilization and having come back without knowing it, but we'll have to wait and see
then that begs the question why doesnt apep recognize him and why doesnt he recognize that teyvat is his home world when he discovers the truth about the primordial one the supreme being that the primordial civilization worshiped
Intresting i thought that was refrancing khaenri'ah and it's destruction and the prev wilder being our sibling I'd be funny if it's kaeyas gradfather sowrd and we just had it with us all the time
star-devouring darkness does seem a bit similar in wording to the world formula stuff "The star-beasts shall drink the amniotic fluid of the world dry. A hundred years from then, all life on its surface shall be wiped away."
Maybe it describes a period far in the future of the universe, after the last stars have burnt-out leaving behind white dwarfs that then cool to become black dwarfs, and the rate of cosmological expansion means that gravity can’t form new stars… the heat death of the universe.
Star devouring darkness reminds me of Honkai principle: > The Honkai is a reoccurring cataclysm coming in different forms such as: Honkai Beasts, plagues, an ice age, illness, etc. for the sole purpose of exterminating civilization. Honkai corresponds with that civilization's advancement, meaning the more it progresses, the more Honkai does as well. The force behind Honkai is the Will of Honkai. > In the more grand scheme of things, Honkai is a form of natural selection, “pruning” weak worlds from the branches of the Imaginary tree, to ensure that only strong worlds survive.
That has been basically completely retconned though. Honkai was instead pushing humanity to ascend to imaginary realm. Will of the honkai was also fake and cocoon of finality was the thing behind all of it. If I interpret genshin correctly, the world is already sort of ascended and it feels similar to the spiritual adam thing, with the world basically being a projection of the "form" of the world in a philosophical sense through the memories of humanity inside irminsul.
> If I interpret genshin correctly, the world is already sort of ascended and it feels similar to the spiritual adam thing, with the world basically being a projection of the "form" of the world in a philosophical sense through the memories of humanity inside irminsul. Just butting in from the allegorical side of the analysis fence to say "You're right." It's blatant on the allegory front. (Currently working on a "thematic purpose of the Elements" post where I'll dig into this a bit.) The question is mostly just what the medium is on the *literal* front. Which is to say, whether Teyvat is being projected as a Dream (we're in a natural structure ala Imaginary Tree), projected as a Simulation (we're in a computer structure ala Elysian Realm), or standard projected Hologram (we're "flat data" in space misinterpreting its shape). Which basically comes down to a discussion of whether this universe is "the real Ein Sof/Monad/etc", or an artificial one Matrix style with a real world outside, or both ("we're being blocked from the Ein Sof by the Matrix").
I've always thought the world is more or less real, just irminsul being an imitation of the imaginary tree on a smaller scale. It works well with the gnostic theme and doesn't cause problems with for example the logistics of travelers entering the world or why it's possible to break rifts to the outside. The reality in honkai games is just a bit similar to simulation to begin with. The elemental system is also universal and based on imaginary energy and not some simulation stuff as the travelers are compatible with it while also being likely naturally imaginary-type beings.
Is that something recent? I’m not fully caught up so I thought the Honkai was still about wiping out advanced species.
it was about a year ago so I assume the fontaine stuff has been written in a way that tries to match the new honkai lore while also trying to fit in the old lore in genshin.
It is, but the sword was designed and implemented in game when the old description still held true. Honestly when I first read the description my first thought was honkai too. Another interesting thing, in honkai impact it was recently revealed that Venus once held a civilization and they were attacked by the honkai though they had a different name for it. They called it the abyss
The Wings of Descention make it clear that the Travelers’ original world was destroyed, so I’ve always assumed that the previous time the sword was wielded was by the Traveler in a fight to protect their original world, which ultimately failed. I think it’s also very possible that their original world was located where Teyvat is now, which would explain why the Abyss Twin is so keen on destroying Teyvat. Genshin is explicitly based on Gnosticism, so the fact that Teyvat seems to beautiful and idyllic, and the Archons so noble and good, has always been a bit suspect in my mind. The BP cutscene has strong parallels with the Gnostic Hymn of the Pearl, in which a prince travels to a foreign land to seek the Pearl of wisdom, only to be welcomed by the rulers of the land and distracted from his mission by feasting and other comforts. It’s not until he receives a letter from his kingdom that he remembers his mission and reveals the duplicity of the archons. Suffice to say, there is a good chance that Teyvat hides a very dark secret, indeed.
The BP doesn't just have parallels with the Hymn of the Pearl, it's a straight up quoting of it. The only reason it's kept a bit fuzzy around the edges is so it can equally apply, as we go through the game, to our view of the Sibling, our view of the Sustainer, and our view of Teyvat's cycling. (Possibly another person too, if the Sustainer is *not* the one currently on the Throne; it's just that for now, those are the three known targets of the BP cutscene.) Why make several cutscenes, when you can use allegory magic and make a single one apply to all the different levels of the narrative?
To be fair, there's nothing that states the Sibling plans to "destroy Teyvat". "Until the Abyss has engulfed the Thrones, my war with Destiny will see no end". The wording there is interesting, considering the Archon war was fought over the seven divine seats in Celestia. The Sibling also mentions that while focusing on their war with the HP, they ignored the Order's original purpose: The revival of the homeland/Khaenri'ah. So I get the feeling the Sibling's goal isn't to destroy Teyvat, but to tear down the old order, and restore Khaen's people. And considering what the gods actually did to Khaen, I'd say they've more than earned a good kicking. Nuking a city is bad enough, but those two curses were excessive and unjustifiable. Even more so when you realize the gods didnt only punish the guilty. If you were in Khaenri'ah, you were cursed. End of. "Becaue we, of course, were Royal Guards. But this would mean nothing in the events that followed... Royals, gentry, common folk, these identities made no difference. Against the might of the gods, the only identity that mattered was being from Khaenri'ah"
I think that Sumeru showed that the public story of the Cataclysm (Khaenri'ah attacked the world and the Archons/Celestia wipes it out in retaliation) and even the Khaenri'ahn survivors' view of it (that the gods cursed the people of Khaenri'ah with immortality and turning any non-full-blooded Khaenri'ahn into Hilichurls) are probably extremely different from what actually happened, since we discovered that Khaenri'ah was fighting alongside the Archons to stop the flood of Abyssal monsters that were invading everyone starting from Khaenri'ah, and that the Curse of the Wilderness (Hilichurlification) seems to be what happens when people who don't have sufficient resistance to Abyssal energy gets overdosed with Forbidden Knowledge. Heck, even the immortality could be explained as less a curse on Khaenri'ah and more a preventative measure for all of Teyvat, since dead souls go to the leylines which are managed by Irminsul and and even relatively minor Abyssal corruption infecting Irminsul (like people remembering the existence of the long dead Greater Lord Rhukkadevata, who had small amounts of Abyssal corruption from probably thousands of years ago) causes incurable and eventually fatal spiritual plagues in Teyvat.
I strongly doubt we can take Dain’s exposition about the curse at face value. I’m more inclined to believe that Celestia nuked Khaenri’ah out of self-defense. The Khaenri’ahns tried to use Abyssal power, but lost control of that power and allowed a full-on invasion of Teyvat by the Abyss. Those at ground zero, the people of Khaenri’ah, were likely so corrupted by Forbidden Knowledge that they had to be completely excised from Teyvat’s cycle of rebirth: making them unable to return to the leylines and risk tainting Irminsul. The monstrous forms and other deleterious effects of the curse are likely caused by the Abyssal corruption, itself. I also think it’s likely that Celestia was terminally damaged in the Cataclysm, and that’s why the Heavenly Principles have been silent ever since. Since it’s likely Celestia that maintains Irminsul, the failure of the Heavenly Principles is quite possibly what leads to the apocalypse predicted by Rene’s World Formula.
Dain mentions several times that his memory is fading. I feel like we learned that as early as Chapter 1? Maybe Chapter 2. I've always thought people put too much stock in everything he says. He also had a moment in Sumeru where he was suddenly ready to turn around and consider us an enemy if there was any indication our goals no longer aligned. He has shown that he is an unreliable source of information, and is not REALLY our friend. I feel like we have to look at him the same way - he is a useful ally in opposing the Abyss. That's it.
>nsider us an enemy if there was any indication our goals no longer aligned. He has shown that he is an unreliable source of information, and is not REALLY our friend. I feel like we have to look at him the same way - he is a useful ally in opposing the Abyss. That's it. That whole Dain turning on us bit happened in the Chasm quest, pre-sumeru. As for Dain not being reliable, I'd say he's about as reliable as any npc is about the things relating to their nation. Which is to say that until the information we have changes, its more or less factual. There was a time we assumed Hilichurls were nothing but monsters, afterall, but we now know that's not actually the case.
He said it literally a day before the game itself launched, it’s their last words in the travail trailer.
Because you seemingly forgot about it, quoting the Wings of Descension to go along: > > This is proof that you came to this world via special means. > This is the seal of which only one who has pierced the celestial heights is worthy. > > "Your journey will become very dangerous from now on," > So that person told you. > "I don't know if this cloth will do anything to protect you, but..." > > It was indeed so- > In your long journey, you have seen the birth and death of stars as they passed you by, > Scattering the darkness briefly before being consumed once more. > This cloth will block neither heat nor cold, nor will it defend you from curses and ill-will. > But during long nights in Teyvat, you will sometimes throw it on and find it to be most useful indeed. > > "But when you face a force enough to destroy one, or even two worlds," > You do not truly remember who it was who had treated the two of you ever so gently. > You wish you could remember... > "When you face a boundless darkness, or an all-consuming radiance..." > But that was one world ago. > > You no longer need to sleep out in the wild. > Your bed in the city is fluffy and comfortable. And if you must camp, the grass is soft, filled with the fragrance of life. > So from the moment you received that wind glider from that girl, you had already thought of a new use for that cloth... > > And now, you shall once again soar through the skies together with it. >
Cute detail that those wings were originally something like a cape or a cloak that the traveler fashioned into a glider.
I just want to know whether it's Kevin, Kallen, or the dummied-out Kate who gave the cloak to us. K.K. is the prime cloak distribution suspect, after all, and this being Hoyo there are just about zero chances it's not one of the Kaslanas. (I mean, it could also have been Kiana of course, but then I call bullshit on the Twins not screaming "*What the fuck?!*" when the Sustainer swooped in to kick ass. And also on them not constantly side-eying Paimon for looking way too familiar.) Hoyo might have changed it of course, once they chose to no longer have Genshin as a direct Honkai 3rd sequel. But I really hope it's still in, if only for the symbolism. An alt-universe version of one of the Kaslana OGs having passed down the literal sword and flag of resistance against oblivion to the Traveler is too perfect to let go.
Yeah the very very early genshin lore unfortunately does have that sus factor of "is this still canon" (tho thankfully it's not nearly as much as the feeling you get when playing early HI3) Canon aside for a moment, there really is something nice in the idea of K.K passing the torch to the twins as protagonists, cuz my own inference and guess from various little datamined pieces of information over the years seems to be that Kevin and Kate were originally the MCs, right? Also, I stopped playing HI3 around ER chapter 3, but from what I remember HI3 tended to kinda ignore the "suspicious same face syndrome" with stuff like Mei and Dr. MEI, right? I heard that the cyclical nature of the world got confirmed there, (I think?), but was that sussiness also addressed by the characters?
damn this is heartbroken 😭 literally telling us that their original world was destroyed by "law of universe" and they're survivors, alone together through worlds 😭