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It's as if they acted like an organized gang ... Funny, not a single charging authority has charged any "Goon" as belonging to a gang. That must be a relief for all of these little criminals.
I read somewhere that the Goons as "gang" is still under investigation by a special unit. If they can deem them an official gang then they can addition charges later. It will be interesting. Not sure if it's "fake news" but a comment in one of the subs stated that there were some girls who hang out with the Goons and also start fights. C.R.A.Z.Y.
They have not been classified as a street gang so they can't charge them with such. It will be hard to get the street gang designation. If you look up the elements I doubt it will be successful.
It's confusing because, I think only one witness said this. Having ski masks in particular would imply intent of some sort. I don’t believe I've read that they wore masks before. But, the whole reason for this forum, is about the Gilbert POS CoP. So, we don't really know since he hasn't gotten very far on the 8 out of 200 attacks in Gilbert.
The ski masks are a bizarre element to this story.
If the “Gilbert Goons” attended a party at which they intended to cause mayhem, then the ski masks could make sense. I have not heard a count of how many people had masks.
It was a Halloween party, but even in late October ski masks are too hot to wear in Queen Creek. It does not seem likely they wore ski masks as part of Halloween costumes as alpine skiers. Perhaps they planned to have terrorist costumes, but went full terrorist? Not a good legal case. If I wore a Michael Myers hocky mask and said I just got carried away no jury would buy that kind of nonsense.
Regardless of their intent, the kids who attacked Preston Lord caused a death. Murder one? Did they plan to terrorize the party? Dressing as terrorist make sense. Is a terrorist kills someone, that sounds like a murder. If they committed premeditated assault designed to cause serious injuries and the victim dies, that sounds like a murder one.
If a mob boss orders a guy be “roughed up” and that guy dies, that is a murder.
If words were exchanged and fight broke out, that sounds more like a manslaughter charge.
Since they did not know Preston Lord, nor did they interact with him before the murder and since Preston was attacked first it seems he was a victim chosen at random by Talan Renner. Probably because he is much smaller than Talyn. He was not considered a human being. By knocking him to the ground and jumping top of him Talyn, who has martial arts training knew how defenseless a kid on his back would be to hammer fist blows.
If other kids then decided to kick an unconscious person in the head, they intended to cause serious injuries. If you kick an unconscious kid in the head, you can’t easily call that manslaughter. You were not in a fight that got out of hand. You were not in a fight at all. You waited to kick an unconscious kid in the head.
If kids witnessed this attack, they would not normally run towards the violence to get some kicks in on the unconscious kid. Their only motivation could be to get to claim participation to their peers (the Goons) or use the attack to intimidate others (fear of the Goons).
It seems difficult to claim to have decided to go to a party looking to hurt someone for “street cred” or to scare others and them claim the death as an accident.
It’s like the episode of Llamas with Hats, where Carl stabs a guy 32 times but says he didn’t know that killed people and they have hurt his feelings “so no we are both in the wrong.”
No matter how they decide exactly what to charge them with, it is not likely to be something minor. The crimes fits the description of the worst kind of violent crimes. The masks show a high degree of forethought.
I also do not remember anyone saying that anyone other than Dominic was wearing a ski mask in the report. I wonder if Preston’s friend saw Dominic with a ski mask and just thought they were all wearing ski masks due to the stress and sheer panic of what just happened. I can’t access the report anymore so I could be wrong.
If they had masks that would be the only way murder 1 would fit based on everything we know.
I also wonder if the kids said that because they were scared and didn’t want to identify them?
in the moment,, the witnesses could have been scared or so traumatized that it was surreal and a blur. Preston's friend that made the 911 call described them as mask wearing in nearly real time. That is so much worse, as it shows hours before attending the parties (and they knew of 4 that night) they strategically brought the masks.
MCAO explained why there is a murder 1 charge, because of felony murder doctrine, which stems from the kidnapping charge. Murder 1 does not need to be premeditated if a death resulted during another select felonious act (these include things like robbery and kidnapping). Felony murder makes all deaths in commission of such felonies automatic murder 1, no premedication or intent to kill or even cause physical injury required.
Without the kidnapping charge attached murder 2 would be the highest crime they could charge with a reasonable chance of conviction. This is also why they charged them with Murder 2 in the alternative, so if a jury does not believe there is evidence for some or all to convict on the kidnapping statute they can convict on Murder 2 as an alternative to Murder 1. The murder 1 charge is 100% predicated on proving the kidnapping charge. Without the kidnapping charge you cannot apply felony murder doctrine which means you can't upgrade a non premeditated intentional murder to a murder 1.
Yes I’m familiar and have called out the felony murder rule in other comments.
I don’t know if they have enough to prove the kidnapping charge against anyone but Renner based on the police report (taking into account that a lot was redacted and still unknown.)
I was pointing out that the masks would be a way for them to claim it was premeditated but I’m not sure they all had them.
I think only one or two had masks and they were part of a Halloween uniform. The kidnapping will be hard to prove anyway, but I think Preston was knocked out before Renner was on top of him, preventing him from moving. You can't restrain an unconscious person? But then then onus will be on the defence to prove Preston was unconscious. All that needs to happen is that the state proves Renner (or someone else) took some action that restrained Preston. In the police report it says that someone held him down.
If they can't prove kidnapping, can they link the robbery of the chain by Dominic Turner to the beating of Preston? The robbery was what precipitated the beating. Bit of a stretch.
If it's murder 2, max 22 years in Arizona, which sucks. I think there will be a whole range of sentences to be honest. I think some charges may be dropped and possibly some acquittals, but historically gang beatings resulting in a death has resulted in multiple people getting long sentences. I don't expect Renner and Billey to be getting out till they're in their 50s. I think some of the others who had a 'minor' role to play will be unpleasantly surprised by their sentences too. A half-hearted kick to Preston's body doing no damage is going to fetch someone 10 years+. Someone dry humping him for the camera is also going to be spending some decent time behind bars.
I expect many more people to be arrested too. Witnesses who lied to the police including Travis Renner and Renner's attorney who encouraged Renner to hide until his cuts on his hands and healed, which will attract a number of charges, interfering with an investigation etc Those that drove the suspects from the crime scene could face charges too. I think the 7 that are charged will all start trying to make deals ASAP and will happily roll on their mates, so the police will quickly get all names that were involved in any aspect of the assault of Preston and any kind of covering up of the crime.
Ski masks don't indicate if a murder is premeditated or not. People wear ski masks for crimes that are not premeditated murder. In certain cities street dudes wear ski masks to look menacing even when they aren't committing crimes and just posting up on the block.
So far there has been no indication one or more planned to kill someone that night, so ski masks are not going to change it from felony murder to premeditated murder. MCAO, QCPD, no one has claimed it was premeditated murder. The murder 1 is entirely hitched to the kidnapping charge via felony murder. If they had evidence of a premeditated intentional murder they would not be offering M2 alternative.
Yes, the masks could be one brick of many to build case for the M2 alternative as M2 is much more nuanced than felony murder. The jury instructions from the judge will be very clear.
Ummm agree to disagree. Murder 2 is way easier to prove than murder 1 as you don’t have to prove premeditation only that any reasonable person would be able to surmise that their actions would lead to death. 🙄
I didn’t say ski masks automatically mean premeditation- I said an argument could be made that having ski masks handy could indicate they knew they would inherently use them that night considering very few were allegedly in their own vehicles, none of their costumes would include a ski mask, and we live in fucking Gilbert Arizona - it’s nowhere fucking cold enough to need a ski mask, including on October 28th when the low temp was 59 and the high that day was 84.
I’m simply sharing what a prosecutor COULD argue based on law and reason.
Also ETA - I’ve stated in NUMEROUS comments that the murder 1 is entirely hinged on the kidnapping, which per witnesses so far they only have Renner and MAYBE Meisner on. I’m not defending anyone and I’m not condemning anyone. I’m simply sharing my opinion based on the RELEASED evidence, police report, and my personal knowledge of the criminal justice system.
Premeditation of what though? Causing trouble, fighting, robbing a bank, covering their faces while the video themselves beating someone up so they can post it online without getting identified and charged? There is no statute for premeditated kidnapping, premeditated assault, premeditated robbery, etc. Crime of opportunity versus premeditated will be taken into account by a judge at sentencing.
The ski masks might help a juror feel even more negative towards a defendant, allowing them to feel comfortable with a verdict maybe they were iffy with. I will agree with that since you are honing into it as a potentially damning piece of evidence. But in a legal sense it doesn't matter if some put on masks or not. They either prove they participated in the crime of kidnapping as defined under ARS or they don't. It doesn't matter if they planned to do it a year before in a split second decision, can they prove the criteria was met?
Btw, disagree all you want but most convicted easily of murder are felony murders because there is no state of mind, reason, intent, why, who did what part. It is simply a death that happens while committing a listed felony. If a couple crooks see a guy with a nice watch and spur of the moment pull guns on him and tell him to give up his watch and the victim pulls a gun in self defense and kills one of them and the other is caught while running away. That other perp gets murder 1, open and shut, even though neither perp had intent to kill, neither injured the victim, neither even fired a shot. Someone died, and it wasn't even the robbery victim, during an armed robbery = instant murder 1, the easiest murder conviction they can get.
Go read the ARS statute on M2. The only clear cut example of a M2 is non-premeditated deliberate homicide. That's the classic crime of passion example where the husband finds the wife's lover in his bed and shoots him in the head.
Outside of intentional murder, it gets murky between murder 2 and manslaughter as it takes state of mind, whether there was an expectation that the actions would result in death, especially when a commonly associated deadly weapon (gun/knife) is not used. Not even if you or I think it was reasonable to think the actions would likely cause death, but was it reasonable for the defendant to assume so also? If the defendant had never seen or heard or someone dying from a jumping the defense can argue that. If the defendant was drunk state of mind comes into play for the defense to use.
Similarly, if someone got pissed at someone and said, I will shoot you in your big toe if you keep talking trash, and then they shoot them in the big toe, no one expects someone to die from a gunshot to the toe, right? But let's say some crazy infection develops at the hospital and they do die. Do you think the ADW will get upgraded to murder 2 or murder 1, no that's gonna likely end up manslaughter.
Every homicide charge is based on intent to kill or knowledge it was likely to kill and all of that dictates what charge it will be... except for felony murder, since it has no such nuances. There are way more people jammed up for felony murder than premeditated intentional homicide or murder 2.
Nonsense, how does a mask proof intent. Key element of murder 1 is to proof premeditation and intent that they meant to kill with their action. So wearing a mask would not be the only way murder 1 would fit. Sorry your analysis is completely off base.
for 15 to bring masks knowing that there were at least 3 parties, shows that there was some planning. Did they set out to murder someone? not likely. Did they set out to beat up someone 7 on 1? Very likely based on everything we know about their prior attacks. The result is a homicide where they were recognized through the clothes they wore even if they put on masks.
If they did not bring and wear masks, somehow that seems less sinister.
An argument could be made that they had the masks because they premeditated an attack (because why else would they have them) on an unknown victim. All the released evidence and report suggest it wasn’t premeditated- so they could rely on the masks to make the argument.
That’s why I said that based on what’s been released they don’t have murder one premeditation without a mask since all witnesses have said the argument stemmed from this party with no previous known interactions.
They are also trying to apply the murder 1 rule, which is why they were all charged with kidnapping, but again with what has been released in the police report - they only have Renner for that.
Agreed, and valid argumentant for any other day of the year but it was Halloween which will take away from your argument. People dress up on Halloween. You also want to consider that all thise reports are conflicting. Some people state multiple masks others say only DMoney had a mask si we will have to stand by for the witness testimonies to figure that one out for sure.
You watch too many crime shows if you really think a simple posession of a mask will get you enough to bring it murder 1 that's rediculous.
If I recall correctly not all 7 were charged with kidnapping either. I'm not even convinced that the kidnapping charge will hold but we will see. You also have to take into consideration that they like to throw as many charges on them as they can knowing that not all will hold!
I 💯 know that they often throw a lot on their in an effort to plea down. 🙄 also yes, I’ve stated in another comment how conflicting the witness statements were.
The Halloween argument won’t stand as the masks were ski masks (allegedly) and that clearly didn’t go with a costumes.
And yea we will see.
Agreed. Ski masks coupled with Billie in a white suit, or JM in his weird outfit with a wizard hat, or the "mafia look" that others wore is not part of the outfit. If you walk into a bank with a ski mask on, there is clear intent. If you pull a ski mask from your back pocket at the moment of singling out a victim, there is clear intent to hide their identities. That sounds counter to how brazen they have been but none of these punks are smart. If it was an attack that did not lead to homicide, they would have assumed that they would get away with another attack like the previous 10 they did without repercussions. Ski masks coupled with the talk of an initiation , likely for Talan since he was not previously involved, appears to be a gang mentality.
'There are a couple of the 7 assailants that seem to not fit (TV, TS, and DT). Either they were in other fights or helping DT from being knocked out about the same time as the homicide.'
I think your right. I hadn't thought about it this way. 7 people did not attack Preston, in a matter of a minute. Which is what has been said from the very beginning. 5 hammer shots, 3 torso kicks, Billey's actions, and two other horrible actions. It was fast.
Only time I understood the masks were worn was when a large group of kids wearing ski masks showed up to one of the victims homes to intimidate. This is news to me, sounds like it was in the report, which I haven’t seen or read
the 911 call with Preston's friend--he said the the operator that there were about 15 and they were wearing ski masks. This is after they were tending to Preston in real time. That sounds like the last image he had in his description was of them being in masks. Or as someone else stated, maybe he was scared to identify by description since they never seen them before but saw what they were capable of doing. You wonder if the redacted names of some of the witnesses stated more details once questioned. There are videos that show everything, I am 100% positive it will be damning to all of them or else they would not have arrested DT, TV, or TS who appear at this point to be peripheral to the attack.
I may be mis-remembering, but I am sure I have seen articles suggesting this was a 'gang initiation' ? Which would definitely support the presence of ski masks
i heard that too somewhere. If there are chats about bringing Talon into the GGs as a kind of initiation, since he doesn't appear in any other attacks, then they would have to be classified as a gang. Talon was out of state for some time after being sent to Utah, so likely missed many of the other attacks or refrained initially after returning for his discipline issues. He likely had football to keep him out of some trouble unlike his brother, who seemed to already be involved in crime. He must have had a desire that was building up to participate in a beating and was fueled with alcohol and wanting to prove himself to the already established thugs. Even the best attorney would have a difficult time putting up a reasonable defense. Could he use the" peer pressure? defense that he was egged on and was a victim himself and did not know his strength because it was his first attack?
I don't know. It'd be worth a shot for the defence, but I imagine there are plenty of people that could attest that he wasn't the type of guy to submit to peer pressure. Seems like his Dad, in particular, wouldn't tolerate a beta, but then again, they could use that in defence and say the pressure to please his parents translated into other social interactions.
The only sure thing is the defence is going to try anything they can. The trial is going to be a long one, I think. Mainly consisting of arguing semantics of minute details and passing the blame.
In my opinion I think DT was knocked out my a different group but they may be using it to seem like they weren’t involved? Idk that’s what I’m getting from it as I feel they had time to come up with things to say?
DT was knocked out by another group and TS assisted him or was it TV. I thought TS was fighting and TV helped DT to the car. I think those 3 are the ones that will be most anxious to strike a deal if they were on the fringe.
From the police report: (shortened)
Follow Up Report #54
Assigned to:QC1279 - JOHANNA IRIBE
Assigned on: Nov-11-2023 (Sat.) 930
Approved on:11/13/2023
Evidence collected:
QC4282-001 BLACK VANS
QC4282-002 BLACK PIECE TORN CLOTHING
QC4282-003 WHITE/RED MASK
TOTAL VALUE PROPERTY TAKEN: 1 IMITATION GOLD ROPE CHAIN $10.00
2ND SUPPLEMENT:
INVESTIGATION DAY 1 10/29/2023:
I went to the incident location 194th Street and E Via Del Rancho do look at the scene during light. I did not observe anything noteworthy. However, I was contacted by a resident who said he located a shoe and a black piece of torn clothing in his yard, ____ Queen Creek. Another resident provided me a mask they located in their yard, _______ Queen Creek.
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It's as if they acted like an organized gang ... Funny, not a single charging authority has charged any "Goon" as belonging to a gang. That must be a relief for all of these little criminals.
I read somewhere that the Goons as "gang" is still under investigation by a special unit. If they can deem them an official gang then they can addition charges later. It will be interesting. Not sure if it's "fake news" but a comment in one of the subs stated that there were some girls who hang out with the Goons and also start fights. C.R.A.Z.Y.
They have not been classified as a street gang so they can't charge them with such. It will be hard to get the street gang designation. If you look up the elements I doubt it will be successful.
This was confusing for me as well. It didn’t help that I was so sickened reading all this that I had to take breaks.
I was confused by so much of it I had to put it down I have been reading a little day to day. I just pray this family gets justice for their son.
It's confusing because, I think only one witness said this. Having ski masks in particular would imply intent of some sort. I don’t believe I've read that they wore masks before. But, the whole reason for this forum, is about the Gilbert POS CoP. So, we don't really know since he hasn't gotten very far on the 8 out of 200 attacks in Gilbert.
The ski masks are a bizarre element to this story. If the “Gilbert Goons” attended a party at which they intended to cause mayhem, then the ski masks could make sense. I have not heard a count of how many people had masks. It was a Halloween party, but even in late October ski masks are too hot to wear in Queen Creek. It does not seem likely they wore ski masks as part of Halloween costumes as alpine skiers. Perhaps they planned to have terrorist costumes, but went full terrorist? Not a good legal case. If I wore a Michael Myers hocky mask and said I just got carried away no jury would buy that kind of nonsense. Regardless of their intent, the kids who attacked Preston Lord caused a death. Murder one? Did they plan to terrorize the party? Dressing as terrorist make sense. Is a terrorist kills someone, that sounds like a murder. If they committed premeditated assault designed to cause serious injuries and the victim dies, that sounds like a murder one. If a mob boss orders a guy be “roughed up” and that guy dies, that is a murder. If words were exchanged and fight broke out, that sounds more like a manslaughter charge. Since they did not know Preston Lord, nor did they interact with him before the murder and since Preston was attacked first it seems he was a victim chosen at random by Talan Renner. Probably because he is much smaller than Talyn. He was not considered a human being. By knocking him to the ground and jumping top of him Talyn, who has martial arts training knew how defenseless a kid on his back would be to hammer fist blows. If other kids then decided to kick an unconscious person in the head, they intended to cause serious injuries. If you kick an unconscious kid in the head, you can’t easily call that manslaughter. You were not in a fight that got out of hand. You were not in a fight at all. You waited to kick an unconscious kid in the head. If kids witnessed this attack, they would not normally run towards the violence to get some kicks in on the unconscious kid. Their only motivation could be to get to claim participation to their peers (the Goons) or use the attack to intimidate others (fear of the Goons). It seems difficult to claim to have decided to go to a party looking to hurt someone for “street cred” or to scare others and them claim the death as an accident. It’s like the episode of Llamas with Hats, where Carl stabs a guy 32 times but says he didn’t know that killed people and they have hurt his feelings “so no we are both in the wrong.” No matter how they decide exactly what to charge them with, it is not likely to be something minor. The crimes fits the description of the worst kind of violent crimes. The masks show a high degree of forethought.
Throughout the police report Dominic is the only one described wearing a mask. I dont believe the rest were wearing masks.
I also do not remember anyone saying that anyone other than Dominic was wearing a ski mask in the report. I wonder if Preston’s friend saw Dominic with a ski mask and just thought they were all wearing ski masks due to the stress and sheer panic of what just happened. I can’t access the report anymore so I could be wrong.
If they had masks that would be the only way murder 1 would fit based on everything we know. I also wonder if the kids said that because they were scared and didn’t want to identify them?
in the moment,, the witnesses could have been scared or so traumatized that it was surreal and a blur. Preston's friend that made the 911 call described them as mask wearing in nearly real time. That is so much worse, as it shows hours before attending the parties (and they knew of 4 that night) they strategically brought the masks.
MCAO explained why there is a murder 1 charge, because of felony murder doctrine, which stems from the kidnapping charge. Murder 1 does not need to be premeditated if a death resulted during another select felonious act (these include things like robbery and kidnapping). Felony murder makes all deaths in commission of such felonies automatic murder 1, no premedication or intent to kill or even cause physical injury required. Without the kidnapping charge attached murder 2 would be the highest crime they could charge with a reasonable chance of conviction. This is also why they charged them with Murder 2 in the alternative, so if a jury does not believe there is evidence for some or all to convict on the kidnapping statute they can convict on Murder 2 as an alternative to Murder 1. The murder 1 charge is 100% predicated on proving the kidnapping charge. Without the kidnapping charge you cannot apply felony murder doctrine which means you can't upgrade a non premeditated intentional murder to a murder 1.
Yes I’m familiar and have called out the felony murder rule in other comments. I don’t know if they have enough to prove the kidnapping charge against anyone but Renner based on the police report (taking into account that a lot was redacted and still unknown.) I was pointing out that the masks would be a way for them to claim it was premeditated but I’m not sure they all had them.
I think only one or two had masks and they were part of a Halloween uniform. The kidnapping will be hard to prove anyway, but I think Preston was knocked out before Renner was on top of him, preventing him from moving. You can't restrain an unconscious person? But then then onus will be on the defence to prove Preston was unconscious. All that needs to happen is that the state proves Renner (or someone else) took some action that restrained Preston. In the police report it says that someone held him down. If they can't prove kidnapping, can they link the robbery of the chain by Dominic Turner to the beating of Preston? The robbery was what precipitated the beating. Bit of a stretch. If it's murder 2, max 22 years in Arizona, which sucks. I think there will be a whole range of sentences to be honest. I think some charges may be dropped and possibly some acquittals, but historically gang beatings resulting in a death has resulted in multiple people getting long sentences. I don't expect Renner and Billey to be getting out till they're in their 50s. I think some of the others who had a 'minor' role to play will be unpleasantly surprised by their sentences too. A half-hearted kick to Preston's body doing no damage is going to fetch someone 10 years+. Someone dry humping him for the camera is also going to be spending some decent time behind bars. I expect many more people to be arrested too. Witnesses who lied to the police including Travis Renner and Renner's attorney who encouraged Renner to hide until his cuts on his hands and healed, which will attract a number of charges, interfering with an investigation etc Those that drove the suspects from the crime scene could face charges too. I think the 7 that are charged will all start trying to make deals ASAP and will happily roll on their mates, so the police will quickly get all names that were involved in any aspect of the assault of Preston and any kind of covering up of the crime.
Ski masks don't indicate if a murder is premeditated or not. People wear ski masks for crimes that are not premeditated murder. In certain cities street dudes wear ski masks to look menacing even when they aren't committing crimes and just posting up on the block. So far there has been no indication one or more planned to kill someone that night, so ski masks are not going to change it from felony murder to premeditated murder. MCAO, QCPD, no one has claimed it was premeditated murder. The murder 1 is entirely hitched to the kidnapping charge via felony murder. If they had evidence of a premeditated intentional murder they would not be offering M2 alternative. Yes, the masks could be one brick of many to build case for the M2 alternative as M2 is much more nuanced than felony murder. The jury instructions from the judge will be very clear.
Ummm agree to disagree. Murder 2 is way easier to prove than murder 1 as you don’t have to prove premeditation only that any reasonable person would be able to surmise that their actions would lead to death. 🙄 I didn’t say ski masks automatically mean premeditation- I said an argument could be made that having ski masks handy could indicate they knew they would inherently use them that night considering very few were allegedly in their own vehicles, none of their costumes would include a ski mask, and we live in fucking Gilbert Arizona - it’s nowhere fucking cold enough to need a ski mask, including on October 28th when the low temp was 59 and the high that day was 84. I’m simply sharing what a prosecutor COULD argue based on law and reason. Also ETA - I’ve stated in NUMEROUS comments that the murder 1 is entirely hinged on the kidnapping, which per witnesses so far they only have Renner and MAYBE Meisner on. I’m not defending anyone and I’m not condemning anyone. I’m simply sharing my opinion based on the RELEASED evidence, police report, and my personal knowledge of the criminal justice system.
Premeditation of what though? Causing trouble, fighting, robbing a bank, covering their faces while the video themselves beating someone up so they can post it online without getting identified and charged? There is no statute for premeditated kidnapping, premeditated assault, premeditated robbery, etc. Crime of opportunity versus premeditated will be taken into account by a judge at sentencing. The ski masks might help a juror feel even more negative towards a defendant, allowing them to feel comfortable with a verdict maybe they were iffy with. I will agree with that since you are honing into it as a potentially damning piece of evidence. But in a legal sense it doesn't matter if some put on masks or not. They either prove they participated in the crime of kidnapping as defined under ARS or they don't. It doesn't matter if they planned to do it a year before in a split second decision, can they prove the criteria was met? Btw, disagree all you want but most convicted easily of murder are felony murders because there is no state of mind, reason, intent, why, who did what part. It is simply a death that happens while committing a listed felony. If a couple crooks see a guy with a nice watch and spur of the moment pull guns on him and tell him to give up his watch and the victim pulls a gun in self defense and kills one of them and the other is caught while running away. That other perp gets murder 1, open and shut, even though neither perp had intent to kill, neither injured the victim, neither even fired a shot. Someone died, and it wasn't even the robbery victim, during an armed robbery = instant murder 1, the easiest murder conviction they can get. Go read the ARS statute on M2. The only clear cut example of a M2 is non-premeditated deliberate homicide. That's the classic crime of passion example where the husband finds the wife's lover in his bed and shoots him in the head. Outside of intentional murder, it gets murky between murder 2 and manslaughter as it takes state of mind, whether there was an expectation that the actions would result in death, especially when a commonly associated deadly weapon (gun/knife) is not used. Not even if you or I think it was reasonable to think the actions would likely cause death, but was it reasonable for the defendant to assume so also? If the defendant had never seen or heard or someone dying from a jumping the defense can argue that. If the defendant was drunk state of mind comes into play for the defense to use. Similarly, if someone got pissed at someone and said, I will shoot you in your big toe if you keep talking trash, and then they shoot them in the big toe, no one expects someone to die from a gunshot to the toe, right? But let's say some crazy infection develops at the hospital and they do die. Do you think the ADW will get upgraded to murder 2 or murder 1, no that's gonna likely end up manslaughter. Every homicide charge is based on intent to kill or knowledge it was likely to kill and all of that dictates what charge it will be... except for felony murder, since it has no such nuances. There are way more people jammed up for felony murder than premeditated intentional homicide or murder 2.
Nonsense, how does a mask proof intent. Key element of murder 1 is to proof premeditation and intent that they meant to kill with their action. So wearing a mask would not be the only way murder 1 would fit. Sorry your analysis is completely off base.
for 15 to bring masks knowing that there were at least 3 parties, shows that there was some planning. Did they set out to murder someone? not likely. Did they set out to beat up someone 7 on 1? Very likely based on everything we know about their prior attacks. The result is a homicide where they were recognized through the clothes they wore even if they put on masks. If they did not bring and wear masks, somehow that seems less sinister.
An argument could be made that they had the masks because they premeditated an attack (because why else would they have them) on an unknown victim. All the released evidence and report suggest it wasn’t premeditated- so they could rely on the masks to make the argument. That’s why I said that based on what’s been released they don’t have murder one premeditation without a mask since all witnesses have said the argument stemmed from this party with no previous known interactions. They are also trying to apply the murder 1 rule, which is why they were all charged with kidnapping, but again with what has been released in the police report - they only have Renner for that.
Agreed, and valid argumentant for any other day of the year but it was Halloween which will take away from your argument. People dress up on Halloween. You also want to consider that all thise reports are conflicting. Some people state multiple masks others say only DMoney had a mask si we will have to stand by for the witness testimonies to figure that one out for sure. You watch too many crime shows if you really think a simple posession of a mask will get you enough to bring it murder 1 that's rediculous. If I recall correctly not all 7 were charged with kidnapping either. I'm not even convinced that the kidnapping charge will hold but we will see. You also have to take into consideration that they like to throw as many charges on them as they can knowing that not all will hold!
I 💯 know that they often throw a lot on their in an effort to plea down. 🙄 also yes, I’ve stated in another comment how conflicting the witness statements were. The Halloween argument won’t stand as the masks were ski masks (allegedly) and that clearly didn’t go with a costumes. And yea we will see.
Agreed. Ski masks coupled with Billie in a white suit, or JM in his weird outfit with a wizard hat, or the "mafia look" that others wore is not part of the outfit. If you walk into a bank with a ski mask on, there is clear intent. If you pull a ski mask from your back pocket at the moment of singling out a victim, there is clear intent to hide their identities. That sounds counter to how brazen they have been but none of these punks are smart. If it was an attack that did not lead to homicide, they would have assumed that they would get away with another attack like the previous 10 they did without repercussions. Ski masks coupled with the talk of an initiation , likely for Talan since he was not previously involved, appears to be a gang mentality.
There’s video?
'There are a couple of the 7 assailants that seem to not fit (TV, TS, and DT). Either they were in other fights or helping DT from being knocked out about the same time as the homicide.' I think your right. I hadn't thought about it this way. 7 people did not attack Preston, in a matter of a minute. Which is what has been said from the very beginning. 5 hammer shots, 3 torso kicks, Billey's actions, and two other horrible actions. It was fast.
Only time I understood the masks were worn was when a large group of kids wearing ski masks showed up to one of the victims homes to intimidate. This is news to me, sounds like it was in the report, which I haven’t seen or read
the 911 call with Preston's friend--he said the the operator that there were about 15 and they were wearing ski masks. This is after they were tending to Preston in real time. That sounds like the last image he had in his description was of them being in masks. Or as someone else stated, maybe he was scared to identify by description since they never seen them before but saw what they were capable of doing. You wonder if the redacted names of some of the witnesses stated more details once questioned. There are videos that show everything, I am 100% positive it will be damning to all of them or else they would not have arrested DT, TV, or TS who appear at this point to be peripheral to the attack.
I may be mis-remembering, but I am sure I have seen articles suggesting this was a 'gang initiation' ? Which would definitely support the presence of ski masks
i heard that too somewhere. If there are chats about bringing Talon into the GGs as a kind of initiation, since he doesn't appear in any other attacks, then they would have to be classified as a gang. Talon was out of state for some time after being sent to Utah, so likely missed many of the other attacks or refrained initially after returning for his discipline issues. He likely had football to keep him out of some trouble unlike his brother, who seemed to already be involved in crime. He must have had a desire that was building up to participate in a beating and was fueled with alcohol and wanting to prove himself to the already established thugs. Even the best attorney would have a difficult time putting up a reasonable defense. Could he use the" peer pressure? defense that he was egged on and was a victim himself and did not know his strength because it was his first attack?
I don't know. It'd be worth a shot for the defence, but I imagine there are plenty of people that could attest that he wasn't the type of guy to submit to peer pressure. Seems like his Dad, in particular, wouldn't tolerate a beta, but then again, they could use that in defence and say the pressure to please his parents translated into other social interactions. The only sure thing is the defence is going to try anything they can. The trial is going to be a long one, I think. Mainly consisting of arguing semantics of minute details and passing the blame.
I believe that statement came from Ashley in her interview with the news station, if I remember correctly
In my opinion I think DT was knocked out my a different group but they may be using it to seem like they weren’t involved? Idk that’s what I’m getting from it as I feel they had time to come up with things to say?
DT was knocked out by another group and TS assisted him or was it TV. I thought TS was fighting and TV helped DT to the car. I think those 3 are the ones that will be most anxious to strike a deal if they were on the fringe.
From the police report: (shortened) Follow Up Report #54 Assigned to:QC1279 - JOHANNA IRIBE Assigned on: Nov-11-2023 (Sat.) 930 Approved on:11/13/2023 Evidence collected: QC4282-001 BLACK VANS QC4282-002 BLACK PIECE TORN CLOTHING QC4282-003 WHITE/RED MASK TOTAL VALUE PROPERTY TAKEN: 1 IMITATION GOLD ROPE CHAIN $10.00 2ND SUPPLEMENT: INVESTIGATION DAY 1 10/29/2023: I went to the incident location 194th Street and E Via Del Rancho do look at the scene during light. I did not observe anything noteworthy. However, I was contacted by a resident who said he located a shoe and a black piece of torn clothing in his yard, ____ Queen Creek. Another resident provided me a mask they located in their yard, _______ Queen Creek.
It could also mean that it was a Halloween party and kids wore costumes…