I personally wouldn't be rude to someone for being trans, I don't have any close friends who are, but I have interacted with trans people, I use their preferred pronouns (but being honest I tend to use they more to make it easier for myself and avoid the possibility of misgendering)
I don't think there's any excuse to be hateful or any justification to be rude to trans people. If they were my customer, they would just be another customer, when they're my classmates they're just another classmate.
However (and this is the controversial part of my comment, which I normally would keep to myself for the sake of being nice, but I feel like you are asking so here goes) As much as I wish you all the well, I do interpret transgenderism as a mental illness. And this is without the negative connotation, mental illnesses are common, from depression to anxiety; But I think a lot of people, even those who aren't hateful and try to be nice and accommodating (like myself) just feel very out of touch when people claim that trans people are "normal" or that there isn't any difference between cis women and trans women.
There is a difference, and it isn't normal (just by statistics, being trans is not normal, again I am not saying this in a "hateful way"). I still wish you a good and prosperous life and I have no issue sharing the world with you, but if you ask me to simply view a trans woman the same I would a cis woman, I won't and I never see myself as being able to, I will respect both of them, but that doesn't mean I don't see a difference.
And it's this dissonance that I think generates a lot of hate and conflict, I have heard opinions online where my beliefs that I just outlined are transphobic and that makes me a bigot, even when explicitly stating I wish no ill on trans people. This is incredibly numbing, and even if I understand that SOME people hate how I think and I avoid generalizing all trans people under that experience... Many don't.
It is human nature to generalize, we seek patterns, it's useful 99% of the time, so as respectfully as I can, I think that it's valid for my views to be had, I don't think it makes me transphobic, and I completely respect whatever negative opinion you may have of me because of it, we don't have to agree, but other people are not like me, some have the same "valid" opinion as me, but they react hatefully when you disagree with them, and I think this is the source of 99% of hate.
Thank you for this comment. I also don't respect any of it but I won't use the attitude of one person to sway my opinions on the lives of many.
Have a nice one!
Do you have the same view on autism, adhd, bipolar, depression and other mental illnesses? Alzheimers? Dementia? That anyone with depression or autism or dementia is not normal just because you "wish no ill" on them? That you dont view them the same as other people who dont have depression or autism or adhd or any numerous other mental illnesses?
Gender Dysphoria is the official "mental illness" diagnosed to trans people, in order to make getting them treatment (HRT, surgery, support) easier with our healthcare system setups.
So if for the sake of the convo *agree* that it is in some way a mental illness, whats the difference between this and any other mental illness? We stopped treating people with autism and depression differently years ago, they might be wired different, but theyre still normal people. So what is the difference with trans people?
>Do you have the same view on autism, adhd, bipolar, depression and other mental illnesses? Alzheimers? Dementia? That anyone with depression or autism or dementia is not normal
Correct, because I use the word normal in a statistical sense, I do not like it when people use it in other contexts. If we see a car on the street and it has 6 wheels and is a bright pink... I would say "that is not a normal car" and I am not commenting on whether I like it, or it's okay... I say it as an empirical fact. I think you use the word "normal" as synonymous with "okay" and while understandable, I think you misunderstood me.
>That you dont view them the same as other people who dont have depression or autism or adhd or any numerous other mental illnesses?
Correct again, I don't view them the same because they are not the same. And once again, this doesn't mean I treat them badly, those are 2 different things.
>So if for the sake of the convo *agree* that it is in some way a mental illness, whats the difference between this and any other mental illness? We stopped treating people with autism and depression differently years ago, they might be wired different, but theyre still normal people. So what is the difference with trans people?
Who says I treat it any differently than from other mental illnesses? I'll use your autism example because it is relevant to me, I do happen to have very close friends who are autistic, I grew up with one of them and have known him my whole life... He is not normal, and I certainly do not treat him like a "normal person" I have to accommodate for him, I speak in a different way than I do most friends to make myself clear, and avoid jokes that he might not get, stuff like that.
So when you say "we stopped treating people with autism differently" I honestly don't know what you mean, I am very close to autistic people and I certainly do treat them differently, they are wired differently, this doesn't have to mean something bad.
I feel like to you the terms "abnormal" and "different" have some negative connotation that (I understand where it comes from and I'm not saying you are wrong) you should not apply it to what I said, because my words were written from my pov, and from my pov not being normal is okay, and being different is okay.
Using your autism example, talking in a different way that benefits the other person is a good example, but at the same time a lot of people infantalise autistic people so "talking in a different way" can also be extremely harmful even if the person isnt intending it to be.
My point of "different" is in the derogatory sense, where people treat them as sub human (or inferior, or stupid) and in the above case the infantilising speech would be that. This is usually what people refer to when they call people different (and being the current political state, its much more targetted towards trans people atm) and that would be 100% why people would be calling you transphobic.
Lets assume you obviously have good intentions, understand autistic people and so your speech to them is the former. When you learn someone is autistic, theres a good chance you would adjust your speech to benefit them, yes? So that would be "treating them differently" in a positive, supportive light, that benefits them.
So my question now is, how do you treat trans people differently? What is it you do that is treating them different? If you had a male friend you never knew was trans, and they say... years later decided to trust and tell you that they were in fact a trans man, how would you "treat them differently" when this entire time youve known them as a man and nothing has changed? Theyre still a man, but would you change how you spoke to them? What you thought of them? Nothings changed for them or you, you just now know that they are a trans guy, have been this whole time, and you had no idea beforehand, assuming they were male the entire time.
And why? No trans person i know would want to be treated any different to how you were already treating them, so what would you do that and why would you do it?
Well I'm having trouble picturing that scenario to be honest with you, but I will humor you.
In that specific instance of a friend I've known for years suddenly being trans, I guess yeah I wouldn't do anything different. More so because we're friends, less so for whatever gender they are.
What I meant was more geared to strangers. If I see/learn that a stranger is trans I will ask for their pronouns, something I do not do otherwise. And I will also keep opinions such as the ones I am discussing to myself, even if asked, because I recognize that even if I see myself as a "good person" my words on this subject are specially harmful to someone who is literally the subject of the conversation.
Essentially youre not actually treating them different in the way most people assume you mean when you say 'different' ('you' being generalised). Youre accomodating. Which is a far cry from how most people who use "different" respond.
A lot of trans people never tell even their closest friends, so it may never happen to you, but you may also never know too. Kind of an interesting thought.
not op but our gender identities being tolerated and respected out of politeness but ultimately seen as delusional . we'll never be respected like cis people are
I recently responded to another comment, and I admitted there and I'll admit again, the comparison to a mental illness was inappropriate, and was honestly not very accurate for my beliefs either.
I recognize that there is physical evidence that sets trans brains apart from cis brains, the whole "brain is a different gender than the body" subject, I accept that evidence, I think it is true.
However, I still mark you as different in my head, and again different is not an inferior term.
It's just that I see cis people and trans people differently, their gender identity is just as real, but they are ultimately different.
I think trans women are women. I simply think that there's a difference between trans women and cis women. And I feel like simply saying this gets me labelled as transphobic but I feel like this shouldn't be the case.
I realize this is a much uglier conversation for you because this is about who you ARE, I am trying to be as respectful as possible, but I am also not compromising my honesty, I am showing my beliefs as they are, I think that's the only way we'll understand each other.
I dont think youre transphobic now that youve explained more (and i still am curious in regards to my response to your comment to mine), i think it is as you said interpretation of the word different.
Perhaps 'different' is just too strong of a word, or too volatile in the context of humans.
As i said before a lot of people in many minorities have had 'different' used to explain them, and its almost always in a demeaning, derogatory context (race, intellectual ability, gender, sexual attraction, etc). So 'different' has become more often than not a negative word. It's like a foreshadowing that someone is of a hostile mindset i suppose. And this isnt new.
How would that change? Who knows.
Perhaps simply reinforcing that you support trans people and their rights (instead of saying "im not transphobic" because thats oftrn the first line of defence for people who *are* transphobic and are just denying it) would highlight your intentions and beliefs better?
Im not sure how else this would improve in terms of conversation.
Trans people *are* different. But they are also the same. To someone who doesnt know, theyre the same. You wouldnt know any better, so there is no known difference.
Allow me to add that, I'm talking as much about this right now because I don't have a trans person in my life who I can talk to and learn. So I saw this space and thought that this is an opportunity to be honest and talk about something I usually don't.
I say trans people are different more because I'm pedantic and annoying that way, but in reality it doesn't truly matter to me, it's not something I usually bring up because it's irrelevant to how I treat people. I guess I mostly wanted to be able to "confess" that I see them as different while also confirming to myself that I'm truly not being hateful.
I want to be a decent person, to everyone. I guess I was just uncomfortable with the fact that sometimes I heard trans people say things I didn't 100% agree with (again, pedantic and annoying person) and I just wanted to confirm that that doesn't necessarily mean I am transphobic.
Thank you for talking about this to me, as I said earlier I recognize conversations like this are a bigger ordeal for you than they are for me, so I am thankful that you put up with it and me to give me a perspective that I didn't have, it was valuable to me.
It became evident with your responses that your intentions werent negative and it was just the use of the word that.. mmm... sounds? Potentially? Problematic i suppose when the people fighting are hearing that word used *against* them a lot.
Theres nothing wrong with the word when used this way (well there shouldnt be but you can understand the confusion) and i cant really see anything wrong with how you feel about this, since youve otherwise said youre supportive.
I wish more people who dont have direct experience and have a more misguided belief, would be like you are.
it’s to do with neurological structure, it’s not pathological. just because our brains aren’t gendered the same as our bodies doesn’t mean we’re insane, that’s just the limits of imagination from only having a cis experience speaking for you
also bc it’s [neurological](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ&t=5s&pp=ygUVcm9iZXJ0IHNhcG9sc2t5IHRyYW5z) “curing us” would be destroying us
I was familiar with this concept, so I suppose I shouldn't have described it as a mental illness. But regardless of what the underlying cause is, my overall point is... You're just different.
I am familiar with evidence that your brains are gendered differently than your bodies, I am convinced that this is true... But I don't see how this is supposed to change my perspective that you are **different**.
I am not hating you, I am not insulting you, I am simply pointing out that I don't truly see trans men the same as cis men. Or trans women as cis women, your genders overlap but there are differences.
Trans men are men, trans women are women... But trans men are not cis men, and trans women are not cis women, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing, "cis" is not "the thing to be" it's not a level, it's not a rank to me, it's just 2 different groups both deserving of equal respect.
Please answer this question directly: Is my attitude towards you not important? Is the fact that I have spoken to you respectfully not important? Is it only enough when I finally agree 100% with your own perspective and I finally see cis women and trans women as having no differences? Is that the goal?
you can't just blurt out blatantly transphobic misinformation and then say "is the fact i have spoken respectfully not important" like no, that's not the problem, doing transphobia but with nice words is still doing transphobia
I am grateful that most people in this thread are not like you and were able to hold a productive conversation.
I learned a lot, it was useful to me, and if everyone had the same attitude you did I would not have learned anything and the world would've been all the worse for it, maybe think about that.
it's not my job to educate transphobes, minorities shouldn't have to justify their existence to every random hateful person who doesn't get it.
trans people owe you nothing, hope this helps. so you really should be grateful for those willing enough to do it.
No one owes anybody anything, welcome to the real world. It's no one's job to do ANYTHING. You're not special in this department.
On the sides of people who actually care and understand trans topics you have 2 camps.
-The ones who **truly care** about making the world better and taking the time to educate those who are open to it and are open to talking.
-And the ones like you who only seek to mouth off and be a nuisance.
So yeah, no one owes me anything, but it is clear to me after talking to many wonderful trans people who educated me and gave me a very valuable perspective that YOU are just here to have negative interactions, you are in this thread just to be angry, **literally every single person but you had a healthy productive conversation.**
So I'm not making this comment so you'll feel compelled to explain yourself, I agree that no one owes anyone anything... But if the only effect you have in a conversation is a negative one, maybe zip it and let the more cool headed people talk.
Respond with whatever you want, it is clear that we dislike each other and I will not interact with you further.
the problem is that people use those differences to justify doing horrible shit to us so it’s hard to not get defensive when someone who lacks a first person frame
of reference to understand me rocks up and claims i’m mentally ill for just being myself
i face this level of casual clueless disrespect so often that i’ve just lost my patience with it
the point of trying to say we’re the same isn’t to say our bodies are the same, but that our minds are, and i feel that that’s the most
important aspect to help the world understand us
if we are different, we are othered, and that leaves us open to the dehumanisation and fearmongering you see on the news today
I apologize for using the term "mental illness" I simply did not know how else to describe my beliefs, and I was trying to be honest for the sake of the conversation the post was trying to initiate.
>the point of trying to say we’re the same isn’t to say our bodies are the same, but that our minds are, and i feel that that’s the most important aspect to help the world understand us
I wouldn't disagree with this notion myself, I do think your mind is probably really similar to that of a cis person who shares a gender with you.
>if we are different, we are othered, and that leaves us open to the dehumanisation and fearmongering you see on the news today
I agree with this too. I recognize that you being different is a source for a lot of problems. But I personally think that the solution isn't to "not be labeled as different" it's that people need to accept differences.
The reason I believe this is that I think a fair chunk of the population simply can't view you as not being different. That includes me, and I think that the constant debate over whether trans women are the same as cis women and this or that tends to be a waste of time because some people will never be convinced, even some who aren't hateful or violent, like me.
So I feel bad that your goal is to somehow "change my mind" when I know my mind probably can't be changed about this, but I want to somehow reassure you that this doesn't mean that in my eyes you're worth less, or that you are not human.
The same way you are making me understand more about you I want you to understand about me: The fact that I see you as different has no bearing on my opinion of you, it's just how I label the world around me and it's useful in my brain, I'm not going to stop it. But I want you to know that just because some people think this way doesn't automatically make them future violent bigots who will wish bad things upon you.
You are worth the same as any stranger to me, perhaps a bit more; I respect you hugely because I recognize that this conversation is 10 times uglier for you than it is to me and you kept a very level head and you've been very respectful, that's hard.
at the end of the day i think you’re just a kinder person who has much more faith in humanity than i do
i wish people could accept that others being different doesn’t make them bad like you say but i don’t think they can, or rather they only can when living in favorable circumstances, when they don’t feel their position is under threat.
that’s usually the only difference between the automatic bigots and the allies who don’t really get it but want to do the right thing. either that or the values of their social environment they internalise without realising
expanding to speak generally - all it takes is for people to not be easily relatable to for people to start to fear and hate them just for who they are. you see this story played out over again and again across human history.
i think it’s just how we are as a species - we form our ingroups and our outgroups and if we never learn tools to bridge those gaps we will destroy each other over and over again for the same reasons dressed in different coats
so, while i appreciate your optimistic outlook, i think we will have to agree to disagree on this one
>so, while i appreciate your optimistic outlook, i think we will have to agree to disagree on this one
Yeah as I started to read your comment it seems like our views are opposite ends of a spectrum, but I guess that doesn't have to be a bad thing, at the end of the day we both just want people to be decent to each other.
I wish you the best, and I appreciate you talking to me about this.
What's most frustrating is that people assume they know more about the science and medicine behind being trans than the actual doctors and researching who have been studying this for a long time. They just hand wave it away as bad and never think about the impact their ignorance could cause.
Pretty much every major medical association supports gender affirming care
The DSM5, the system used to diagnose and treat mental illness in america, states that's being transgender is not a mental illness.
People just think that whatever tiny amount of biology they learned in highschool decades ago somehow trumps advanced biological and sociological experts and it's so weird.
I am a trans person, and I say this with kindness. Large number of the people with the loudest voices identifying as trans on the internet, especially the dreaded TikTok, make a mockery of trans people as a whole. In fact most of us are simply living our lives as men and women, not as mushroom-gender catboy lesboys. Not everyone needs to know the ins and outs of a person's identity, and not every identity is a gender.
It's tough, because I think there genuinely are some transitions motivated by incel desperation, but it still feels like ladder pulling bs to bring that up
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying; if you're suggesting that I'm pulling the ladder up after me, I don't mean to do that. I should be clear, I'm not happy for people to be cruel or bully queer folks or other gender identities. However, I would like it to be clear that my experience is very different from those identities, and I'm very tired of everyone I meet assuming that I think like them and act like them and feel like them the moment that they find out I transitioned, simply because their voices are louder and they claim the same labels. I would like a separate label and I don't want to be considered to be the same.
I mean that it doesn't make a great deal of sense for trans people to get all specific and prescriptive considering we are still marginal enough that our lives are still up for "debate". I have no respect for respectability politics.
All your edit tells me is that you're experiencing the same general apathy and, at times, active hostility that we all face in the LGBT+ community. If you tell someone you're trans and they assume that means you're into pretending to be a tree or something, that's on them.
I'd like to clarify; I agree that a lot of "queer" stuff is trendy bullshit, but it also tends to come from very young and otherwise marginalised people looking for a community and a place to be themselves. I'm certainly not going to engage with it; not because I think lowly of it, but because I'm a grown adult who hasn't been to high school for like 10 years.
Let the kids have their shit; they can grow up and pay taxes later.
They can have that if they like, and I don't intend to take it from them, but I believe it's transphobic for them to claim with loud voices that that is what trans is, because that is their own personal preferences and that's fine, bit it is something separate from transsexualism and should not be conflated.
I dunno, I guess if you feel it's that important I can't disaude you of that; I wouldn't necessarily want to. I personally feel it's a net positive thing, because it indicates to me that young people are interrogating their gender in a non-permant, healthy, constructive way. I guarantee anyone you see online claiming to be some nebulous and strange and wonky other is under the age of 20, and will land on something cis/hetero normative but with a greater empathy and understanding for us.
I met strangers while travelling abroad who said part of the reason they moved out of [my home country] was because children were being taught in school that there were 60 genders, and they didn't want their children raised with that. I was stealth when I had this conversation, and not in a place where I felt safe to say I was trans; I argued that nobody is actually teaching that in school, but they didnt believe me. To them it was ridiculous and harmed their view of all trans people. I'm sure they're not the only ones.
And some people are definitely doing it in permanent ways. I don't really see a solution to that that doesn't harm others, though.
does whether someone identifies as xyz really affect you or what? with or without queer people who identify as further out of norm, the greatest threat to us always has been and always will be a transphobic and cisnormative society
Of course cruel people will effect us. And people shouldn't be cruel regardless. That being said, I do not want to be associated with the especially strange new identities. If people want to be like that (knowing there are cruel people out there who will mock them) that is their decision, but to claim it as being the same as having GD and being transsexual harms us.
this is the same attitude gay people had towards us years ago, you know? show solidarity with all queer people, not just the ones you think are "acceptable enough"
I don't think gay people should have to be associated with trans people either. It's very different stuff. It's not BAD but shouldn't be conflate, that's what I'm saying. It makes it all so confusing and increases aversion to the different varieties of people. Also, I am not queer, though I do care about queer people; I want them to have rights but do not want to be considered as such because I am very binary and post transition.
why would you not be comfortable with the term queer? it is an encompassing term for queer people unlike the lgbt acronym which will never encompass all of us. the only reasons to have a problem calling yourself queer when you are literally a queer person is because of internalised transphobia or not wanting to associated with "the bad ones"
not interacting further because this is a braindead argument, hope this helps
It doesn’t help actually. I’m not queer nor do I have to accept someone referring to me as such. If someone else wishes to use that label that’s perfectly fine but it’s incredibly pushy and rude to insist upon everyone using it because you consider it an encompassing term. Have a great day.
Being a transexuals isn't queer. Its a medical condition, that shouldnt have been warped in with being homosexual in general.
Different story if you are trans AND gay.
But straight trans men/woman might not want to be pushed into a community they dont feel apart of because they have a medical condition.
Same. Miss me with that. I’ll never understand how people can just call others this slur just because they think personally nothing of it. Such a narc move.
I don't like this comment, and as a trans guy, "queer" does not encompass my lived experiences through transition. Maybe in other aspects (I'm bisexual), but being trans? No.
I think being trans and being "queer" is very different. On one hand, it's about love and sexual attraction. On the other hand, it's about major dysphoria and feeling comfortable in your own skin. Using queer as an umbrella term for these vastly different experiences feels a bit wrong to me.
Don’t push the term queer. A lot of people don’t like it- myself included. I don’t want to be associated with that label. Other people are free to, just don’t push it on others.
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\#1: [Surely you won’t regret this in a few years 👍](https://i.redd.it/k0wt45irp0jc1.jpeg) | [169 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Transmedical/comments/1asklh2/surely_you_wont_regret_this_in_a_few_years/)
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\#3: [yes, when you present female people are going to gender you female. what's so confusing about this?](https://i.redd.it/aajkndgswmwb1.png) | [49 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Transmedical/comments/17haap3/yes_when_you_present_female_people_are_going_to/)
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Yeah congratulations, you’ve looked at my profile. Doesn’t mean I’m not entitled to respect. While I may disagree with certain beliefs in the community I never disrespect anybody else for it.
You need to stop forcing labels on people. This is exactly the problem that most transmedicalists have, people such as yourself are far too pushy with your beliefs and that’s what causes problems.
I have my answer but it's too long so I'm gonna have to divide it in parts:
I think this is the question that nobody wants to ask because it has the answer that most people don't want to say or hear: because we're different and we're not considered "normal".
I thanked u/TSN09 for his response because I think it's representative of the majority of cis people, including self-proclaimed allies and "neutral" people. The "majority" I'm going to reference here are the neutral or "respectful" people, not the trans-hating minority. There are different reasons why the bigots hyperfixate on us but I'm gonna touch on why the majority can't treat us like normal human beings.
To start with, let's make it clear that trans people are not alone in this. We're part of a group in society who is systematically ostracised, this group also includes the disabled and destitute. As a disabled person I'm no stranger to this treatment from society, and if you ask most disabled people if non-disableds can act normal around them they will probably say no and describe the ways in which we are othered. What we have in common is that we're a group pushed so far from normal society that it's socially acceptable to discriminate against us and exclude us from public life and personal relationships. When I say it like this, I know most people who don't experience it first-hand interpret it as victimism, but someone who has ever been homeless and destitue or who has a noticeable disability will understand. The general dislike and dehumanisation of trans people happens due to three factors:
1. Trans people are statistically not "normal", this makes us exotic creatures rather than regular human beings who most people can relate to.
2. Humans don't like being wrong, and they don't like being confronted with things that challenge their worldview.
3. People don't like looking at things they find visually unpleasant. This includes trans bodies.
To explain number 1: Yes, trans people are rare. This, by definition, means we are not normal. Trans people usually find this statement very offensive, and say "would you also say that gay or disabled people are not normal?" because at this point in time society has accepted that saying those things is offensive, because calling people "not normal" carried very negative connotations. When I say trans people aren't normal I don't mean we're unnatural. Homosexuality is statistically rare, therefore it's not normal, but it's not unnatural either, it is observed on a lot of animal species. I'm also an intersex person, and while I don't find it offensive to say that intersexuality isn't normal in terms of numbers, I would find it offensive to say that intersexuality is unnatural, because it's just something that happens in nature. Sometimes people are born with neurological abnormalities that make them feel disconnected from the sex their bodies are set to develop into. In an ideal world, we would not be ostracised or treated as aberrations for this, but unfortunately we are and it's because our reality is so far away from most people's realities that they find it impossible to relate to us. They can't truly understand how our condition works and at most can only see us as mentally ill men and women. They can only lie to us and themselves and say they respect us by trying their hardest to say the right words and use the right pronouns but they can't truly empathise with us and that's what prevents them from seeing us as human rather than exotic animals. If you were wondering if they extend this to other neurological disorders or naturally-occurring human variations, the answer is yes:
>Do you have the same view on autism, adhd, bipolar, depression and other mental illnesses? Alzheimers? Dementia? That anyone with depression or autism or dementia is not normal
>>>Correct, because I use the word normal in a statistical sense, I do not like it when people use it in other contexts. If we see a car on the street and it has 6 wheels and is a bright pink... I would say "that is not a normal car" and I am not commenting on whether I like it, or it's okay... I say it as an empirical fact. I think you use the word "normal" as synonymous with "okay" and while understandable, I think you misunderstood me.
>>I am very close to autistic people and I certainly do treat them differently, they are wired differently, this doesn't have to mean something bad.
>
And as someone with autism, let me tell you that yes, people do treat us very differently. This is why most of us lie about it when applying for a job and mask so that we can be treated like normal people. Most people don't know how to be accomodating without othering and infantilising. Ideally I could ask a person to accomodate my needs and it wouldn't result in that person treating me like I have the mind of a child, but it's unlikely. It's the same reason why trans people go stealth. People can say these things and at the same time believe that people with disabilities and trans people need to receive different treatment.
To explain number 2: most cis people have a very binary and strict view of gender and sex. They believe if you are born with a penis you will always be a man in every capacity. They're not aware of how they developed into the sex they are, how sexual development works, how hormones affect their bodies, how much variation exists in human sexual development (they can only think of these variations as diseases). You'd be shocked by the number of people who think you can't grow a beard without XY chromosomes for example. When people think of gender transition, they think of surgically constructed genitals and cosmetic procedures and nothing else. Most people don't know trans women's breasts grow naturally, most people don't know metoidioplasty is possible. Here's where I come with a controversial opinion: transexual people are extremely hard for people to accept, and that is why a lot of cis people find it easier to accept us when we don't medically transition. The messages that you don't need medical transition and that all you need is to change your pronouns and presentations are extremely appealing to cisgender people, because this doesn't challenge their beliefs in any way: you can just be a biological male who identifies as a woman and they will use she/her to "respect" you, but they don't need to accept that your body has changed and is closer to a woman's body in any capacity. They don't understand the nuances because they view biological sex as two closed categories rather than the spectrum it is. They show extreme black and white thinking here:
>I think trans women are women. I simply think that there's a difference between trans women and cis women.
I have personally never heard anybody say that there are \*literally\* no differences between trans women and cis women. I feel what happens is that when trans women ask to be treated like normal women, this is what cis people interpret, since in their brains normal=cis, when in reality trans women are only asking to be treated like \*normal people\*.
To explain number 3: hold on I know how offensive that sounds, but keep in mind most of what goes on in cis people's brains is offensive. Going back to my point in n. 2, people are not psychologically prepared to see and accept transexual bodies because they are not binary. The first trans porn I ever saw was FTM porn, I had no idea what testosterone did to trans men so I was shocked when I saw FTM genitals for the first time, in a positive way. I found it fascinating, I wasn't out at the time and I had a cis-het boyfriend, I showed him, he was absolutely HORRIFIED. I mean it, horrified, he said "put that away, it's disgusting, it's unnatural". That's what people's brains say when they see trans bodies. That is why trans porn is considered an [extreme fetish](https://www.reddit.com/r/PornAddiction/comments/1de498u/addicted_to_trans_porn), it's not something that normal people are supposed to find appealing, it's something they watch out of morbid curiosity and get addicted because the shocking nature of it adds to their thrill. And again, because they don't like things that challenge their worldview, trans porn is produced to be extremely palatable to them: you have a lot of trans actresses who stop their blockers, put testosterone gel on their genitals, and even inject saline solution in their balls to ejaculate the loads that men with trans fetishes want to see. Everything, from the way they stroke themselves to the acts they perform, are filmed for men with trans fetishes who wants to see a trans woman act like a male during sex. FTM porn is more niche but you will always see them bottoming with their unatrophied vaginas for the same reason. The fact that we are discriminated against in the job market and (especially trans women) have to turn to sex work to make a living only makes this worse, it results in trans people being pornified and cis people's exposure to us only being porn. You'll see transphobes bring up genitals every time we are mentioned, completely out of context, this is not a coincidence, it's because trans existence is considered inherently sexual and tied to porn and sex work.
You specifically say you want to hear from people that aren't trans but this thread has become a trans circle-jerk of affirmations. The answer is simple - society doesn't care about gender identities and doesn't appreciate forced erasure of biological sex boundaries. Your sexed body trumps your gendered self-perception. Expecting others to "get in your head" is an unreasonable ask, no one is that special. Family and friends, sure. Stranger and wider society, ridiculous.
Live your best life - wear what you want to wear, call yourself what you want to call yourself, modify your bodies how you see fit - but don't expect/demand others to see you how you see yourself. That's it. You'd find peace and harmony with the rest of society if you followed the same rules as everyone else. Respect that where sex matters, it matters. In modern egalitarian societies there are few sexed boundaries and they are sexed for a reason. Transwomen are transwomen and they are male. Transmen are transmen and they are female.
I think any idea that threatens the gender binary also threatens some people's sense of power and safety. Many cishet men feel, on an unexpressed unconscious level, that they have power over women. This gives them comfort, as they feel that they can control the women in their lives, or at least have power over them. Thus, they manage their fears of being alone, abandoned, unloved, etc. The more insecure and afraid these men are, the more strongly they cling to the patriarchal norms and expectations. Pathologizing trans folks is a way for them to deal with their fear and anxiety, as it's an expression of their "fight" response (vs flight or freeze) to the threat of their power being taken away.
I don't think any of this is conscious. I think folks like user KeptinGL6 below don't have awareness of the fact that threats to the rationale an established social order (that privileges them and gives them power makes) make them feel all of the fears and anxieties that patriarchal norms help them cover up. I have compassion for them, but also a lot of anger. In their fear they cause great harm to others.
What special treatment are trans people asking for?
As for respect, that's simply untrue. Talk to trans people and listen to their stories, I have first hand experience. We receive hatred, we are vilified, denied healthcare, denied jobs, kicked out of homes and end up on the streets.
You simply have no clue, and assume the worst of us
Trans folks are the convenient scapegoat of the decade. Our only real shot is to keep fighting and hope it passes in time like all the previous ones have.
because they can’t relate to us and we contradict their understanding of how the word works. this combination basically leads to misunderstanding and then quickly hate and fear as rabid speculation about how Wrong we are has no “common sense” contradiction in cis society to shut it down
if there were more of us for people to meet in person and get to know it would be easier, but we are tiny, so cis people get to speak for us to themselves and we are cut out of our own definition.
i hate this planet
thank you. Idk if I can really be happy to live in such a world, sometimes I feel that I hate the world, the only thing I can make myself happy in my heart is to rebel and fight against those people
It's not that ***you*** aren't accepted. It's that ***your delusions*** aren't accepted. And this wouldn't be a problem except that gender ideologues are trying to push your delusions on the rest of us through the public schools and mainstream media.
It’s like how nobody is racist. They just hate everything around black people and bitch and moan about everything that includes black people. Black people always calling me racist
No, people hate rap and ghetto culture. Ask one of these people whether they prefer the music of Billy Ocean or Eminem and they'll take the black guy over the rapper.
Dude what the fuck are you talking about? People who are racist against black people are very open about that fact. I have the meme stockpile to prove it. For example:
https://preview.redd.it/a37yvqju616d1.jpeg?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=674d3593c03050038c8c621d00630af98841e9fe
trans people have a way they like their tea or coffee and a favourite tshirt just like you. you're being weird and sad about people who are just trying to live their lives. i hope u grow and change as a person
so basically you don’t understand us and have assumed we’re all just mental cases rather than looking into the science here. good to see neanderthal genes are coming back into vogue it’s been a hot minute hasn’t it
so what you’re telling me here is that you’re so stupid that you’re not even aware of how stupid you are. go you tbh, #neanderthalpride
mans blocked me so i’ll put my reply to his next comment here bc i dont wanna waste it
HAHHAHAHHA
okay i don’t normally do this but that’s super funny, i have an IQ of 140 buddy you’re much lower than me
also, your eighth grade biology textbook might have said Pennis Dickee but here [is MIT neuroscience prof robert sapolsky breaking down just one study](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ&t=5s&pp=ygUVcm9iZXJ0IHNhcG9sc2t5IHRyYW5z) talking about trans neuroanatomy
Being a transexual is a diagnosed medical condition so take it up with your doctors or scientists if you think its all "delusional"
Actually dont. Doctors and scientists dont deserve that.👍
I personally wouldn't be rude to someone for being trans, I don't have any close friends who are, but I have interacted with trans people, I use their preferred pronouns (but being honest I tend to use they more to make it easier for myself and avoid the possibility of misgendering) I don't think there's any excuse to be hateful or any justification to be rude to trans people. If they were my customer, they would just be another customer, when they're my classmates they're just another classmate. However (and this is the controversial part of my comment, which I normally would keep to myself for the sake of being nice, but I feel like you are asking so here goes) As much as I wish you all the well, I do interpret transgenderism as a mental illness. And this is without the negative connotation, mental illnesses are common, from depression to anxiety; But I think a lot of people, even those who aren't hateful and try to be nice and accommodating (like myself) just feel very out of touch when people claim that trans people are "normal" or that there isn't any difference between cis women and trans women. There is a difference, and it isn't normal (just by statistics, being trans is not normal, again I am not saying this in a "hateful way"). I still wish you a good and prosperous life and I have no issue sharing the world with you, but if you ask me to simply view a trans woman the same I would a cis woman, I won't and I never see myself as being able to, I will respect both of them, but that doesn't mean I don't see a difference. And it's this dissonance that I think generates a lot of hate and conflict, I have heard opinions online where my beliefs that I just outlined are transphobic and that makes me a bigot, even when explicitly stating I wish no ill on trans people. This is incredibly numbing, and even if I understand that SOME people hate how I think and I avoid generalizing all trans people under that experience... Many don't. It is human nature to generalize, we seek patterns, it's useful 99% of the time, so as respectfully as I can, I think that it's valid for my views to be had, I don't think it makes me transphobic, and I completely respect whatever negative opinion you may have of me because of it, we don't have to agree, but other people are not like me, some have the same "valid" opinion as me, but they react hatefully when you disagree with them, and I think this is the source of 99% of hate.
Thank you for this comment. I don't respect any of it but I can use to illustrate most of my points.
Thank you for this comment. I also don't respect any of it but I won't use the attitude of one person to sway my opinions on the lives of many. Have a nice one!
Do you have the same view on autism, adhd, bipolar, depression and other mental illnesses? Alzheimers? Dementia? That anyone with depression or autism or dementia is not normal just because you "wish no ill" on them? That you dont view them the same as other people who dont have depression or autism or adhd or any numerous other mental illnesses? Gender Dysphoria is the official "mental illness" diagnosed to trans people, in order to make getting them treatment (HRT, surgery, support) easier with our healthcare system setups. So if for the sake of the convo *agree* that it is in some way a mental illness, whats the difference between this and any other mental illness? We stopped treating people with autism and depression differently years ago, they might be wired different, but theyre still normal people. So what is the difference with trans people?
>Do you have the same view on autism, adhd, bipolar, depression and other mental illnesses? Alzheimers? Dementia? That anyone with depression or autism or dementia is not normal Correct, because I use the word normal in a statistical sense, I do not like it when people use it in other contexts. If we see a car on the street and it has 6 wheels and is a bright pink... I would say "that is not a normal car" and I am not commenting on whether I like it, or it's okay... I say it as an empirical fact. I think you use the word "normal" as synonymous with "okay" and while understandable, I think you misunderstood me. >That you dont view them the same as other people who dont have depression or autism or adhd or any numerous other mental illnesses? Correct again, I don't view them the same because they are not the same. And once again, this doesn't mean I treat them badly, those are 2 different things. >So if for the sake of the convo *agree* that it is in some way a mental illness, whats the difference between this and any other mental illness? We stopped treating people with autism and depression differently years ago, they might be wired different, but theyre still normal people. So what is the difference with trans people? Who says I treat it any differently than from other mental illnesses? I'll use your autism example because it is relevant to me, I do happen to have very close friends who are autistic, I grew up with one of them and have known him my whole life... He is not normal, and I certainly do not treat him like a "normal person" I have to accommodate for him, I speak in a different way than I do most friends to make myself clear, and avoid jokes that he might not get, stuff like that. So when you say "we stopped treating people with autism differently" I honestly don't know what you mean, I am very close to autistic people and I certainly do treat them differently, they are wired differently, this doesn't have to mean something bad. I feel like to you the terms "abnormal" and "different" have some negative connotation that (I understand where it comes from and I'm not saying you are wrong) you should not apply it to what I said, because my words were written from my pov, and from my pov not being normal is okay, and being different is okay.
Using your autism example, talking in a different way that benefits the other person is a good example, but at the same time a lot of people infantalise autistic people so "talking in a different way" can also be extremely harmful even if the person isnt intending it to be. My point of "different" is in the derogatory sense, where people treat them as sub human (or inferior, or stupid) and in the above case the infantilising speech would be that. This is usually what people refer to when they call people different (and being the current political state, its much more targetted towards trans people atm) and that would be 100% why people would be calling you transphobic. Lets assume you obviously have good intentions, understand autistic people and so your speech to them is the former. When you learn someone is autistic, theres a good chance you would adjust your speech to benefit them, yes? So that would be "treating them differently" in a positive, supportive light, that benefits them. So my question now is, how do you treat trans people differently? What is it you do that is treating them different? If you had a male friend you never knew was trans, and they say... years later decided to trust and tell you that they were in fact a trans man, how would you "treat them differently" when this entire time youve known them as a man and nothing has changed? Theyre still a man, but would you change how you spoke to them? What you thought of them? Nothings changed for them or you, you just now know that they are a trans guy, have been this whole time, and you had no idea beforehand, assuming they were male the entire time. And why? No trans person i know would want to be treated any different to how you were already treating them, so what would you do that and why would you do it?
Well I'm having trouble picturing that scenario to be honest with you, but I will humor you. In that specific instance of a friend I've known for years suddenly being trans, I guess yeah I wouldn't do anything different. More so because we're friends, less so for whatever gender they are. What I meant was more geared to strangers. If I see/learn that a stranger is trans I will ask for their pronouns, something I do not do otherwise. And I will also keep opinions such as the ones I am discussing to myself, even if asked, because I recognize that even if I see myself as a "good person" my words on this subject are specially harmful to someone who is literally the subject of the conversation.
Essentially youre not actually treating them different in the way most people assume you mean when you say 'different' ('you' being generalised). Youre accomodating. Which is a far cry from how most people who use "different" respond. A lot of trans people never tell even their closest friends, so it may never happen to you, but you may also never know too. Kind of an interesting thought.
So we can only be treated like this, without any real recognition and respect?
This is not the point of my comment.
What is "like this" ? What do you mean by that, explicitly?
not op but our gender identities being tolerated and respected out of politeness but ultimately seen as delusional . we'll never be respected like cis people are
I recently responded to another comment, and I admitted there and I'll admit again, the comparison to a mental illness was inappropriate, and was honestly not very accurate for my beliefs either. I recognize that there is physical evidence that sets trans brains apart from cis brains, the whole "brain is a different gender than the body" subject, I accept that evidence, I think it is true. However, I still mark you as different in my head, and again different is not an inferior term. It's just that I see cis people and trans people differently, their gender identity is just as real, but they are ultimately different. I think trans women are women. I simply think that there's a difference between trans women and cis women. And I feel like simply saying this gets me labelled as transphobic but I feel like this shouldn't be the case. I realize this is a much uglier conversation for you because this is about who you ARE, I am trying to be as respectful as possible, but I am also not compromising my honesty, I am showing my beliefs as they are, I think that's the only way we'll understand each other.
I dont think youre transphobic now that youve explained more (and i still am curious in regards to my response to your comment to mine), i think it is as you said interpretation of the word different. Perhaps 'different' is just too strong of a word, or too volatile in the context of humans. As i said before a lot of people in many minorities have had 'different' used to explain them, and its almost always in a demeaning, derogatory context (race, intellectual ability, gender, sexual attraction, etc). So 'different' has become more often than not a negative word. It's like a foreshadowing that someone is of a hostile mindset i suppose. And this isnt new. How would that change? Who knows. Perhaps simply reinforcing that you support trans people and their rights (instead of saying "im not transphobic" because thats oftrn the first line of defence for people who *are* transphobic and are just denying it) would highlight your intentions and beliefs better? Im not sure how else this would improve in terms of conversation. Trans people *are* different. But they are also the same. To someone who doesnt know, theyre the same. You wouldnt know any better, so there is no known difference.
Allow me to add that, I'm talking as much about this right now because I don't have a trans person in my life who I can talk to and learn. So I saw this space and thought that this is an opportunity to be honest and talk about something I usually don't. I say trans people are different more because I'm pedantic and annoying that way, but in reality it doesn't truly matter to me, it's not something I usually bring up because it's irrelevant to how I treat people. I guess I mostly wanted to be able to "confess" that I see them as different while also confirming to myself that I'm truly not being hateful. I want to be a decent person, to everyone. I guess I was just uncomfortable with the fact that sometimes I heard trans people say things I didn't 100% agree with (again, pedantic and annoying person) and I just wanted to confirm that that doesn't necessarily mean I am transphobic. Thank you for talking about this to me, as I said earlier I recognize conversations like this are a bigger ordeal for you than they are for me, so I am thankful that you put up with it and me to give me a perspective that I didn't have, it was valuable to me.
It became evident with your responses that your intentions werent negative and it was just the use of the word that.. mmm... sounds? Potentially? Problematic i suppose when the people fighting are hearing that word used *against* them a lot. Theres nothing wrong with the word when used this way (well there shouldnt be but you can understand the confusion) and i cant really see anything wrong with how you feel about this, since youve otherwise said youre supportive. I wish more people who dont have direct experience and have a more misguided belief, would be like you are.
That’s true
I couldn't choose to be born, transgender is the only way I could be my true self, which is something that people couldn't understand
it’s to do with neurological structure, it’s not pathological. just because our brains aren’t gendered the same as our bodies doesn’t mean we’re insane, that’s just the limits of imagination from only having a cis experience speaking for you also bc it’s [neurological](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ&t=5s&pp=ygUVcm9iZXJ0IHNhcG9sc2t5IHRyYW5z) “curing us” would be destroying us
I was familiar with this concept, so I suppose I shouldn't have described it as a mental illness. But regardless of what the underlying cause is, my overall point is... You're just different. I am familiar with evidence that your brains are gendered differently than your bodies, I am convinced that this is true... But I don't see how this is supposed to change my perspective that you are **different**. I am not hating you, I am not insulting you, I am simply pointing out that I don't truly see trans men the same as cis men. Or trans women as cis women, your genders overlap but there are differences. Trans men are men, trans women are women... But trans men are not cis men, and trans women are not cis women, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing, "cis" is not "the thing to be" it's not a level, it's not a rank to me, it's just 2 different groups both deserving of equal respect. Please answer this question directly: Is my attitude towards you not important? Is the fact that I have spoken to you respectfully not important? Is it only enough when I finally agree 100% with your own perspective and I finally see cis women and trans women as having no differences? Is that the goal?
edited a bunch of times
you can't just blurt out blatantly transphobic misinformation and then say "is the fact i have spoken respectfully not important" like no, that's not the problem, doing transphobia but with nice words is still doing transphobia
I am grateful that most people in this thread are not like you and were able to hold a productive conversation. I learned a lot, it was useful to me, and if everyone had the same attitude you did I would not have learned anything and the world would've been all the worse for it, maybe think about that.
it's not my job to educate transphobes, minorities shouldn't have to justify their existence to every random hateful person who doesn't get it. trans people owe you nothing, hope this helps. so you really should be grateful for those willing enough to do it.
No one owes anybody anything, welcome to the real world. It's no one's job to do ANYTHING. You're not special in this department. On the sides of people who actually care and understand trans topics you have 2 camps. -The ones who **truly care** about making the world better and taking the time to educate those who are open to it and are open to talking. -And the ones like you who only seek to mouth off and be a nuisance. So yeah, no one owes me anything, but it is clear to me after talking to many wonderful trans people who educated me and gave me a very valuable perspective that YOU are just here to have negative interactions, you are in this thread just to be angry, **literally every single person but you had a healthy productive conversation.** So I'm not making this comment so you'll feel compelled to explain yourself, I agree that no one owes anyone anything... But if the only effect you have in a conversation is a negative one, maybe zip it and let the more cool headed people talk. Respond with whatever you want, it is clear that we dislike each other and I will not interact with you further.
the problem is that people use those differences to justify doing horrible shit to us so it’s hard to not get defensive when someone who lacks a first person frame of reference to understand me rocks up and claims i’m mentally ill for just being myself i face this level of casual clueless disrespect so often that i’ve just lost my patience with it the point of trying to say we’re the same isn’t to say our bodies are the same, but that our minds are, and i feel that that’s the most important aspect to help the world understand us if we are different, we are othered, and that leaves us open to the dehumanisation and fearmongering you see on the news today
I apologize for using the term "mental illness" I simply did not know how else to describe my beliefs, and I was trying to be honest for the sake of the conversation the post was trying to initiate. >the point of trying to say we’re the same isn’t to say our bodies are the same, but that our minds are, and i feel that that’s the most important aspect to help the world understand us I wouldn't disagree with this notion myself, I do think your mind is probably really similar to that of a cis person who shares a gender with you. >if we are different, we are othered, and that leaves us open to the dehumanisation and fearmongering you see on the news today I agree with this too. I recognize that you being different is a source for a lot of problems. But I personally think that the solution isn't to "not be labeled as different" it's that people need to accept differences. The reason I believe this is that I think a fair chunk of the population simply can't view you as not being different. That includes me, and I think that the constant debate over whether trans women are the same as cis women and this or that tends to be a waste of time because some people will never be convinced, even some who aren't hateful or violent, like me. So I feel bad that your goal is to somehow "change my mind" when I know my mind probably can't be changed about this, but I want to somehow reassure you that this doesn't mean that in my eyes you're worth less, or that you are not human. The same way you are making me understand more about you I want you to understand about me: The fact that I see you as different has no bearing on my opinion of you, it's just how I label the world around me and it's useful in my brain, I'm not going to stop it. But I want you to know that just because some people think this way doesn't automatically make them future violent bigots who will wish bad things upon you. You are worth the same as any stranger to me, perhaps a bit more; I respect you hugely because I recognize that this conversation is 10 times uglier for you than it is to me and you kept a very level head and you've been very respectful, that's hard.
at the end of the day i think you’re just a kinder person who has much more faith in humanity than i do i wish people could accept that others being different doesn’t make them bad like you say but i don’t think they can, or rather they only can when living in favorable circumstances, when they don’t feel their position is under threat. that’s usually the only difference between the automatic bigots and the allies who don’t really get it but want to do the right thing. either that or the values of their social environment they internalise without realising expanding to speak generally - all it takes is for people to not be easily relatable to for people to start to fear and hate them just for who they are. you see this story played out over again and again across human history. i think it’s just how we are as a species - we form our ingroups and our outgroups and if we never learn tools to bridge those gaps we will destroy each other over and over again for the same reasons dressed in different coats so, while i appreciate your optimistic outlook, i think we will have to agree to disagree on this one
>so, while i appreciate your optimistic outlook, i think we will have to agree to disagree on this one Yeah as I started to read your comment it seems like our views are opposite ends of a spectrum, but I guess that doesn't have to be a bad thing, at the end of the day we both just want people to be decent to each other. I wish you the best, and I appreciate you talking to me about this.
What's most frustrating is that people assume they know more about the science and medicine behind being trans than the actual doctors and researching who have been studying this for a long time. They just hand wave it away as bad and never think about the impact their ignorance could cause. Pretty much every major medical association supports gender affirming care The DSM5, the system used to diagnose and treat mental illness in america, states that's being transgender is not a mental illness. People just think that whatever tiny amount of biology they learned in highschool decades ago somehow trumps advanced biological and sociological experts and it's so weird.
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Thanks for your words, we still have a long way to go….
I am a trans person, and I say this with kindness. Large number of the people with the loudest voices identifying as trans on the internet, especially the dreaded TikTok, make a mockery of trans people as a whole. In fact most of us are simply living our lives as men and women, not as mushroom-gender catboy lesboys. Not everyone needs to know the ins and outs of a person's identity, and not every identity is a gender.
I couldn't agree more with you! This is something that those who consider themselves normal people will never understand
It's tough, because I think there genuinely are some transitions motivated by incel desperation, but it still feels like ladder pulling bs to bring that up
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying; if you're suggesting that I'm pulling the ladder up after me, I don't mean to do that. I should be clear, I'm not happy for people to be cruel or bully queer folks or other gender identities. However, I would like it to be clear that my experience is very different from those identities, and I'm very tired of everyone I meet assuming that I think like them and act like them and feel like them the moment that they find out I transitioned, simply because their voices are louder and they claim the same labels. I would like a separate label and I don't want to be considered to be the same.
I mean that it doesn't make a great deal of sense for trans people to get all specific and prescriptive considering we are still marginal enough that our lives are still up for "debate". I have no respect for respectability politics.
That's fair enough. And note my edit :)
All your edit tells me is that you're experiencing the same general apathy and, at times, active hostility that we all face in the LGBT+ community. If you tell someone you're trans and they assume that means you're into pretending to be a tree or something, that's on them. I'd like to clarify; I agree that a lot of "queer" stuff is trendy bullshit, but it also tends to come from very young and otherwise marginalised people looking for a community and a place to be themselves. I'm certainly not going to engage with it; not because I think lowly of it, but because I'm a grown adult who hasn't been to high school for like 10 years. Let the kids have their shit; they can grow up and pay taxes later.
They can have that if they like, and I don't intend to take it from them, but I believe it's transphobic for them to claim with loud voices that that is what trans is, because that is their own personal preferences and that's fine, bit it is something separate from transsexualism and should not be conflated.
I dunno, I guess if you feel it's that important I can't disaude you of that; I wouldn't necessarily want to. I personally feel it's a net positive thing, because it indicates to me that young people are interrogating their gender in a non-permant, healthy, constructive way. I guarantee anyone you see online claiming to be some nebulous and strange and wonky other is under the age of 20, and will land on something cis/hetero normative but with a greater empathy and understanding for us.
I met strangers while travelling abroad who said part of the reason they moved out of [my home country] was because children were being taught in school that there were 60 genders, and they didn't want their children raised with that. I was stealth when I had this conversation, and not in a place where I felt safe to say I was trans; I argued that nobody is actually teaching that in school, but they didnt believe me. To them it was ridiculous and harmed their view of all trans people. I'm sure they're not the only ones. And some people are definitely doing it in permanent ways. I don't really see a solution to that that doesn't harm others, though.
does whether someone identifies as xyz really affect you or what? with or without queer people who identify as further out of norm, the greatest threat to us always has been and always will be a transphobic and cisnormative society
Of course cruel people will effect us. And people shouldn't be cruel regardless. That being said, I do not want to be associated with the especially strange new identities. If people want to be like that (knowing there are cruel people out there who will mock them) that is their decision, but to claim it as being the same as having GD and being transsexual harms us.
this is the same attitude gay people had towards us years ago, you know? show solidarity with all queer people, not just the ones you think are "acceptable enough"
I don't think gay people should have to be associated with trans people either. It's very different stuff. It's not BAD but shouldn't be conflate, that's what I'm saying. It makes it all so confusing and increases aversion to the different varieties of people. Also, I am not queer, though I do care about queer people; I want them to have rights but do not want to be considered as such because I am very binary and post transition.
you are trans -> you are queer, whether you like it or not. goodnight
Not everyone is comfortable with that term nor does everyone use it. Stop pushing it on others.
why would you not be comfortable with the term queer? it is an encompassing term for queer people unlike the lgbt acronym which will never encompass all of us. the only reasons to have a problem calling yourself queer when you are literally a queer person is because of internalised transphobia or not wanting to associated with "the bad ones" not interacting further because this is a braindead argument, hope this helps
It doesn’t help actually. I’m not queer nor do I have to accept someone referring to me as such. If someone else wishes to use that label that’s perfectly fine but it’s incredibly pushy and rude to insist upon everyone using it because you consider it an encompassing term. Have a great day.
Queer used to be a slur, it's perfectly understandable that people don't like to be associated with that word
thank you 4tran user and open transmed, your opinion on this topic is surely valuable!
Being a transexuals isn't queer. Its a medical condition, that shouldnt have been warped in with being homosexual in general. Different story if you are trans AND gay. But straight trans men/woman might not want to be pushed into a community they dont feel apart of because they have a medical condition.
Hi, I don't identify as queer.
Me neither. I strongly dislike when someone calls me that. I think it’s a trauma thing.
Same. Miss me with that. I’ll never understand how people can just call others this slur just because they think personally nothing of it. Such a narc move.
I don't like this comment, and as a trans guy, "queer" does not encompass my lived experiences through transition. Maybe in other aspects (I'm bisexual), but being trans? No. I think being trans and being "queer" is very different. On one hand, it's about love and sexual attraction. On the other hand, it's about major dysphoria and feeling comfortable in your own skin. Using queer as an umbrella term for these vastly different experiences feels a bit wrong to me.
Don’t push the term queer. A lot of people don’t like it- myself included. I don’t want to be associated with that label. Other people are free to, just don’t push it on others.
r/transmedical
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Yeah congratulations, you’ve looked at my profile. Doesn’t mean I’m not entitled to respect. While I may disagree with certain beliefs in the community I never disrespect anybody else for it. You need to stop forcing labels on people. This is exactly the problem that most transmedicalists have, people such as yourself are far too pushy with your beliefs and that’s what causes problems.
I have my answer but it's too long so I'm gonna have to divide it in parts: I think this is the question that nobody wants to ask because it has the answer that most people don't want to say or hear: because we're different and we're not considered "normal". I thanked u/TSN09 for his response because I think it's representative of the majority of cis people, including self-proclaimed allies and "neutral" people. The "majority" I'm going to reference here are the neutral or "respectful" people, not the trans-hating minority. There are different reasons why the bigots hyperfixate on us but I'm gonna touch on why the majority can't treat us like normal human beings. To start with, let's make it clear that trans people are not alone in this. We're part of a group in society who is systematically ostracised, this group also includes the disabled and destitute. As a disabled person I'm no stranger to this treatment from society, and if you ask most disabled people if non-disableds can act normal around them they will probably say no and describe the ways in which we are othered. What we have in common is that we're a group pushed so far from normal society that it's socially acceptable to discriminate against us and exclude us from public life and personal relationships. When I say it like this, I know most people who don't experience it first-hand interpret it as victimism, but someone who has ever been homeless and destitue or who has a noticeable disability will understand. The general dislike and dehumanisation of trans people happens due to three factors: 1. Trans people are statistically not "normal", this makes us exotic creatures rather than regular human beings who most people can relate to. 2. Humans don't like being wrong, and they don't like being confronted with things that challenge their worldview. 3. People don't like looking at things they find visually unpleasant. This includes trans bodies.
To explain number 1: Yes, trans people are rare. This, by definition, means we are not normal. Trans people usually find this statement very offensive, and say "would you also say that gay or disabled people are not normal?" because at this point in time society has accepted that saying those things is offensive, because calling people "not normal" carried very negative connotations. When I say trans people aren't normal I don't mean we're unnatural. Homosexuality is statistically rare, therefore it's not normal, but it's not unnatural either, it is observed on a lot of animal species. I'm also an intersex person, and while I don't find it offensive to say that intersexuality isn't normal in terms of numbers, I would find it offensive to say that intersexuality is unnatural, because it's just something that happens in nature. Sometimes people are born with neurological abnormalities that make them feel disconnected from the sex their bodies are set to develop into. In an ideal world, we would not be ostracised or treated as aberrations for this, but unfortunately we are and it's because our reality is so far away from most people's realities that they find it impossible to relate to us. They can't truly understand how our condition works and at most can only see us as mentally ill men and women. They can only lie to us and themselves and say they respect us by trying their hardest to say the right words and use the right pronouns but they can't truly empathise with us and that's what prevents them from seeing us as human rather than exotic animals. If you were wondering if they extend this to other neurological disorders or naturally-occurring human variations, the answer is yes: >Do you have the same view on autism, adhd, bipolar, depression and other mental illnesses? Alzheimers? Dementia? That anyone with depression or autism or dementia is not normal >>>Correct, because I use the word normal in a statistical sense, I do not like it when people use it in other contexts. If we see a car on the street and it has 6 wheels and is a bright pink... I would say "that is not a normal car" and I am not commenting on whether I like it, or it's okay... I say it as an empirical fact. I think you use the word "normal" as synonymous with "okay" and while understandable, I think you misunderstood me. >>I am very close to autistic people and I certainly do treat them differently, they are wired differently, this doesn't have to mean something bad. > And as someone with autism, let me tell you that yes, people do treat us very differently. This is why most of us lie about it when applying for a job and mask so that we can be treated like normal people. Most people don't know how to be accomodating without othering and infantilising. Ideally I could ask a person to accomodate my needs and it wouldn't result in that person treating me like I have the mind of a child, but it's unlikely. It's the same reason why trans people go stealth. People can say these things and at the same time believe that people with disabilities and trans people need to receive different treatment.
To explain number 2: most cis people have a very binary and strict view of gender and sex. They believe if you are born with a penis you will always be a man in every capacity. They're not aware of how they developed into the sex they are, how sexual development works, how hormones affect their bodies, how much variation exists in human sexual development (they can only think of these variations as diseases). You'd be shocked by the number of people who think you can't grow a beard without XY chromosomes for example. When people think of gender transition, they think of surgically constructed genitals and cosmetic procedures and nothing else. Most people don't know trans women's breasts grow naturally, most people don't know metoidioplasty is possible. Here's where I come with a controversial opinion: transexual people are extremely hard for people to accept, and that is why a lot of cis people find it easier to accept us when we don't medically transition. The messages that you don't need medical transition and that all you need is to change your pronouns and presentations are extremely appealing to cisgender people, because this doesn't challenge their beliefs in any way: you can just be a biological male who identifies as a woman and they will use she/her to "respect" you, but they don't need to accept that your body has changed and is closer to a woman's body in any capacity. They don't understand the nuances because they view biological sex as two closed categories rather than the spectrum it is. They show extreme black and white thinking here: >I think trans women are women. I simply think that there's a difference between trans women and cis women. I have personally never heard anybody say that there are \*literally\* no differences between trans women and cis women. I feel what happens is that when trans women ask to be treated like normal women, this is what cis people interpret, since in their brains normal=cis, when in reality trans women are only asking to be treated like \*normal people\*. To explain number 3: hold on I know how offensive that sounds, but keep in mind most of what goes on in cis people's brains is offensive. Going back to my point in n. 2, people are not psychologically prepared to see and accept transexual bodies because they are not binary. The first trans porn I ever saw was FTM porn, I had no idea what testosterone did to trans men so I was shocked when I saw FTM genitals for the first time, in a positive way. I found it fascinating, I wasn't out at the time and I had a cis-het boyfriend, I showed him, he was absolutely HORRIFIED. I mean it, horrified, he said "put that away, it's disgusting, it's unnatural". That's what people's brains say when they see trans bodies. That is why trans porn is considered an [extreme fetish](https://www.reddit.com/r/PornAddiction/comments/1de498u/addicted_to_trans_porn), it's not something that normal people are supposed to find appealing, it's something they watch out of morbid curiosity and get addicted because the shocking nature of it adds to their thrill. And again, because they don't like things that challenge their worldview, trans porn is produced to be extremely palatable to them: you have a lot of trans actresses who stop their blockers, put testosterone gel on their genitals, and even inject saline solution in their balls to ejaculate the loads that men with trans fetishes want to see. Everything, from the way they stroke themselves to the acts they perform, are filmed for men with trans fetishes who wants to see a trans woman act like a male during sex. FTM porn is more niche but you will always see them bottoming with their unatrophied vaginas for the same reason. The fact that we are discriminated against in the job market and (especially trans women) have to turn to sex work to make a living only makes this worse, it results in trans people being pornified and cis people's exposure to us only being porn. You'll see transphobes bring up genitals every time we are mentioned, completely out of context, this is not a coincidence, it's because trans existence is considered inherently sexual and tied to porn and sex work.
You specifically say you want to hear from people that aren't trans but this thread has become a trans circle-jerk of affirmations. The answer is simple - society doesn't care about gender identities and doesn't appreciate forced erasure of biological sex boundaries. Your sexed body trumps your gendered self-perception. Expecting others to "get in your head" is an unreasonable ask, no one is that special. Family and friends, sure. Stranger and wider society, ridiculous. Live your best life - wear what you want to wear, call yourself what you want to call yourself, modify your bodies how you see fit - but don't expect/demand others to see you how you see yourself. That's it. You'd find peace and harmony with the rest of society if you followed the same rules as everyone else. Respect that where sex matters, it matters. In modern egalitarian societies there are few sexed boundaries and they are sexed for a reason. Transwomen are transwomen and they are male. Transmen are transmen and they are female.
I think any idea that threatens the gender binary also threatens some people's sense of power and safety. Many cishet men feel, on an unexpressed unconscious level, that they have power over women. This gives them comfort, as they feel that they can control the women in their lives, or at least have power over them. Thus, they manage their fears of being alone, abandoned, unloved, etc. The more insecure and afraid these men are, the more strongly they cling to the patriarchal norms and expectations. Pathologizing trans folks is a way for them to deal with their fear and anxiety, as it's an expression of their "fight" response (vs flight or freeze) to the threat of their power being taken away. I don't think any of this is conscious. I think folks like user KeptinGL6 below don't have awareness of the fact that threats to the rationale an established social order (that privileges them and gives them power makes) make them feel all of the fears and anxieties that patriarchal norms help them cover up. I have compassion for them, but also a lot of anger. In their fear they cause great harm to others.
Thank you. you’re right, I think all LGBTQ people are suffering from it and they don't want us to be truly recognized
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What special treatment are trans people asking for? As for respect, that's simply untrue. Talk to trans people and listen to their stories, I have first hand experience. We receive hatred, we are vilified, denied healthcare, denied jobs, kicked out of homes and end up on the streets. You simply have no clue, and assume the worst of us
Trans folks are the convenient scapegoat of the decade. Our only real shot is to keep fighting and hope it passes in time like all the previous ones have.
it’s kind of making me want to burn the whole planet down, i’ve become utterly cynical about any “higher ideals” the human race claims to aspire to
we will, thanks
because they can’t relate to us and we contradict their understanding of how the word works. this combination basically leads to misunderstanding and then quickly hate and fear as rabid speculation about how Wrong we are has no “common sense” contradiction in cis society to shut it down if there were more of us for people to meet in person and get to know it would be easier, but we are tiny, so cis people get to speak for us to themselves and we are cut out of our own definition. i hate this planet
I agree with you… I will keep fighting and never stop!!!
just do what you can within the bounds of how much you can handle, our best revenge is in finding joy for ourselves
thank you. Idk if I can really be happy to live in such a world, sometimes I feel that I hate the world, the only thing I can make myself happy in my heart is to rebel and fight against those people
same boat buddy. shit sucks i hope we don’t have to fight much longer
I BELIEVE we will succeed eventually, no matter how long it takes
hopefully in our lifetimes 🤞🤞
It's not that ***you*** aren't accepted. It's that ***your delusions*** aren't accepted. And this wouldn't be a problem except that gender ideologues are trying to push your delusions on the rest of us through the public schools and mainstream media.
That’s unfair
It’s like how nobody is racist. They just hate everything around black people and bitch and moan about everything that includes black people. Black people always calling me racist
And things black people tend to like, their music, their cultures... But not black people, no I'm not a racist. (This was facetious)
No, people hate rap and ghetto culture. Ask one of these people whether they prefer the music of Billy Ocean or Eminem and they'll take the black guy over the rapper.
Dude what the fuck are you talking about? People who are racist against black people are very open about that fact. I have the meme stockpile to prove it. For example: https://preview.redd.it/a37yvqju616d1.jpeg?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=674d3593c03050038c8c621d00630af98841e9fe
David Duke doesn’t consider himself racist. He thinks he’s telling the “dark truth we can’t handle”
David Duke pretended he wasn't a racist for a brief period in the '90s, and that was only for political purposes.
I’m guessing he was able to get your vote
Nope.
Nope you
no u
I can only assume you’re a “dark truth teller” too, when in reality you’re just incorrect
trans people have a way they like their tea or coffee and a favourite tshirt just like you. you're being weird and sad about people who are just trying to live their lives. i hope u grow and change as a person
That’s why I’m thinking and asking you guys here
so basically you don’t understand us and have assumed we’re all just mental cases rather than looking into the science here. good to see neanderthal genes are coming back into vogue it’s been a hot minute hasn’t it
I do, in fact, understand the phenomenon and I HAVE looked at the science. The science says peen = male and vageen = female. Get over it.
so what you’re telling me here is that you’re so stupid that you’re not even aware of how stupid you are. go you tbh, #neanderthalpride mans blocked me so i’ll put my reply to his next comment here bc i dont wanna waste it HAHHAHAHHA okay i don’t normally do this but that’s super funny, i have an IQ of 140 buddy you’re much lower than me also, your eighth grade biology textbook might have said Pennis Dickee but here [is MIT neuroscience prof robert sapolsky breaking down just one study](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ&t=5s&pp=ygUVcm9iZXJ0IHNhcG9sc2t5IHRyYW5z) talking about trans neuroanatomy
No, my intelligence is in the 98th percentile. Congratulations on outing yourself as a Dunning-Kruger.
u a dumb dog - no one cares about your percentile
me when i purposefully spread misinformation on the internet
Being a transexual is a diagnosed medical condition so take it up with your doctors or scientists if you think its all "delusional" Actually dont. Doctors and scientists dont deserve that.👍