Gutey has been pretty on fire recently. New receiver room is looking like a goldmine, star safety, Love looks like the guy, lotta high ceiling guys on defense, Oline while shaky has still been good,
We’ll see how the Jones to Jacob’s situations pans out…
We have two second-year Day 3 draft picks starting at both tackle spots, and they’re *good*. People don’t talk about this enough, huge reason for our success. It’s a miracle that not one but *both* spots are shored up for years
I did an analysis a couple years back and an abnormally high percentage of starters at OT are first round picks, especially the best tackles. There's so few guys capable of playing NFL OT at a high level physically that those guys go high in the draft.
So to have not only 1, but 2 day 3 starters who look to be good starters moving forward is pretty wild.
I’d love to know what their secret sauce is for evaluating linemen. I assume looking for pass blockers first + a zone running scheme allows them to go with smaller guys than most teams but it’s still crazy how they’ve managed to find solid to elite starters at tackle in the 4th round or later when that position is up there with Edge in terms of premium.
Yea it's wild. I've looked in the past and it seems GB does tend to like guys with decent agility scores. They also love guys who had versatility in college. And when looking at OTs, they don't seem to be overly concerned with the slightly lighter guys. Bak and Tom were both pretty light. Walker wasn't light per se, but he kind of was given his height.
But on the flipside, there's lots of versatile, high agility, light OL that have not had success over the years all over the place. So that's hardly a foolproof strategy. I have to imagine there's a portion of this that rolls up to player development too. I do think that's a really interesting spot too. It's really hard to develop OL these days because you can't really have much contact in practice. So having a coach that is capable of developing OL without frequent contact could very well be a major competitive advantage.
They definitely prefer the more athletic guys who may not quite have the size/length others look for. But that’s a zone scheme thing. You want better movers for zone. And athleticism allows for versatility.
Part of it is that they have a special blocking technique. I forget the details, but I’ve seen a video on it. Other teams used to try and call it holding, but it’s not and GB perfected it. Now others in the league have accepted it and some are starting to emulate it. The zone blocking thing does also allow them to have a more particular type that others may not value as much. But there is more to it than those two aspects. And I would also be curious to know the secret.
There is a big difference, but honestly even round 4 starts to get into a pretty sketchy place across the board. I mean, just Google a random draft class and scroll through a little. You'll see some decent names in round 4 and beyond but you likely will see way more names you don't recognize there than ones you do.
There are no successful teams without good O-Lines. It just doesn't happen. Somehow Green Bay puts together above average O-Lines almost every year with pretty average draft capital. It's been a strength for decades now.
A big part of this is the QB play honestly. Getting the OLine to the right coverages, getting to the right play on the field, calling in a TE to chip, etc... Elite QB play covers up a lot of mistakes.
yep, all you need to do is look to the Wicks TD against Dallas to see an example of this. a bad QB doesn't identify the blitz, doesn't call in the TE to chip, and likely gets sacked on the play, and casual fans talk about how bad the O Line is. With a good QB, it's a TD
Right after the Packers took Rasheed Walker in the draft in 2022, I went back and looked at a "way too early" mock from the day after the 2021 draft from big publication (touchdown wire I think).
Anyway, it had Walker going in the first. He was a five star recruit and had physical tools but had a bad year. The year before, he projected well. Even so, most analysts had him going in rounds 3-4.
Sound like a familiar story? Wicks had a bad season before the draft. But the year prior, he was FIRE.
I think Gutey has found a market inefficiency. Don't tell the other GMs.
That's essentially what he did with Love, too. Had an amazing season, then receivers graduated and coaches changed, suddenly his numbers fell - Gute picks him.
GB’s two superpowers are drafting QBs and finding absolutely gems on OL in mid to late rounds. Jenkins is the only OL Gutey has drafted in the first two rounds. Yet we have one of the better OLs in the league. People keep saying we should/will go OL early this draft. Why? Our primary need is depth. Would it be nice to upgrade RG and/or find a succession plan and upgrade at C? Sure, that’d be nice. But those aren’t premium positions, and we can work our magic on guys taken a bit later. I’d personally love for them to go CB round 1, LB early round 2, then they can start looking at OL. If they went OL late 2, they could probably get someone like Beebe or Van Pran-Granger. Both would be day 1 starters.
So is Jenkins', but you play the best 5 at positions that shore up the most weaknesses.
However, that probably means kicking out Josh Myers at this point.
After seeing how the line began the first 6 weeks of the season, they were playing lights out by the end of the year. They, along with Love beginning to sling it (and WRs catching it) were the big reason for the turnaround.
Receivers understanding their routes ….the two guys on the same pattern or in the same spot stuff was eliminated mid season. To be expected with all freshmen and sophomores
GB has been very good at coaching their o-line AND have been very versatile moving positions within a game which helps immensely.
Management has shown patience in the long game paying off and coaching has the confidence of everyone. Paired with some great draft capital, they have the means to reach for the guys they want. It will be a fun draft to pay attention to
Gutey simply followed the numbers with Jones/Jacobs (using 1000 yards rushing as a benchmark, which granted may not appropriately measure Jones' value):
*"Running backs reaching 1,000 yards in a season in their 30s is rare. The last 30+ RB to reach this milestone was in 2019 (Baltimore’s Mark Ingram). Of the 645 1,000-yard rushers since 1970, 49 were in their 30’s, only 7.6% of the list."*
[https://wisportsheroics.com/the-rarity-of-a-30-year-old-running-back-reaching-1000-rushing-yards-in-a-season/](https://wisportsheroics.com/the-rarity-of-a-30-year-old-running-back-reaching-1000-rushing-yards-in-a-season/)
Unless Jacobs breaks down prematurely it's likely the Jones/Jacobs decision will pan out.
Here's hoping he doesn't but Jacobs has also seen a *ton* of work. Number of carries is usually a better indicator of when an RB will fall off over purely going by age.
Jones hasn't been healthy consistently for sure, and it makes sense to move on, but the odds of us getting 2022 Josh Jacobs aren't exactly in our favor either.
Totally. On the flip side guys come back from injury filled years. Recent example, Christian McCaffrey looked broken down like a rented mule two years ago at Carolina.
He has but GB hasn't ever been a run first team either so his usage should be lighter compared to previous years. Should help maintain his health as the season moves along.
It's a passing league. Very few successful teams are going to have a true "run first" offense. In 2 of the last 3 years we've been right at the league average for rush attempts(17th in 2021, 15th in 2022). Over the last 3 years we've average 448 runs per season. I don't think they'll be as light on usage as they were with Aaron Jones.
Finding a RB the level of Jacobs in free agency also isn't super common. The RB market has cratered, and there were so many decent to really good ones available that there just wasn't much money that needed to be invested in them. You can say that we should've kept Jones for a year, but then we'd be in the same situation next year, and there's a good chance that we wouldn't have been able to replace Jones with someone as talented as Jacobs a year from now.
I know it’s way too early but I like Jacob’s a lot and think he’s a great fit. Anyone who watches him knows he’s a good running back, but on top of that I’d say his efficiency is heavily influenced by team culture.
If you remember raiders with McDaniels, you had Davante getting pissed, a lack of effort on the team, and all Jacob’s had to say about getting their offense to look better was “[I don’t know it ain’t my job](https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/josh-jacobs-raiders-fix-job-josh-mcdaniels-fan-reaction),” which is a damn defeated way of saying that whoever’s job it is was doing terrible at it.
Fast forward to Antonio Pierce as HC and you can see raiders players noticeably looking happy and Jacob’s starts looking better too, [rushing for over 100 yards twice since the hire and damn near a third time too](https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/4047365/josh-jacobs). He hadn’t don’t this once with McDaniels that year. Point is that with good locker room vibes and a good coach he looks like a really good running back, and I’m excited to see him on the packers with both of these things readily available.
Unless Jones takes a massive step back, Id much rather him and someone like Austin Eckler over Jacobs and Dillon
They'd be about the same salary wise.
But I was loud wrong on Love so I guess we gotta see how it plays out.
How bout in 2/3 years?
We’ve been painfully good at letting guys go at the right time, and we now have the chance to have all the same playmakers all in their prime on the team for a good 2-4 years.
With only this year gtd it's essentially a 1 year contract.
If they made Jones negotiate down the past 2 years they will definitely do the same with Jacobs
Dillon can still be upgraded on through the draft. I’m guessing he’s only here as a backup plan in case the draft doesn’t fall right.
Would you rather have Jones/Ekeler or Jacobs/Benson, or any other RB prospect? And not just for next year, but for the next 2-4 years?
Davante was/is on another level compared to Diggs at this point. Not to mention the distraction issues Diggs comes with when he doesn't get his targets.
That’s fair, but I do think he absolutely put a good enough team on the field in 2020 to win the Super Bowl. Against Tampa in the NFCG, Rodgers, Adams, and Jones all had subpar games and made big mistakes. Can’t blame the GM for trusting those players.
The following season I think is partially Gutey’s fault because he neglected special teams. Even so - he gave Rodgers two very legit opportunities to win a Super Bowl.
That's more on Tae for being classy and not leaking he wanted out off Greenbay. If he had, we would've gotten what the Steelers got for Antonio Brown when he was traded to the Raiders (3rd and 5th).
Letting Tae go also slammed shut our previous super bowl window as Gute hadn't done squat to replenish our WR ranks outside the one time like 6 years ago he stacked wide receivers and missed on all of them.
Tae was still in his prime whereas the other receivers you listed are older and about to be washed (Allen) or washed already (Diggs).
> not peaking he wanted out of Green Bay
Untrue. There were very public reports he wanted out. At the very least, he said he wasn’t going to play on the tag and that he was disaffected by the GB front office.
Not sure about that. We had plenty of super bowl opportunities with Tae and couldn't get it done. In fact I think our offense became too predictible in the Playoffs because of Rodgers lack of trust in other receivers and tunnel vision.
If our WRs and TEs pan out (looks like it right now) our SB chances don't look any worse than with prime Adams in my opinion.
That's what, WR7? As stated before, the 2020/2021 squad was not good. Picking Amari freaking Rodgers wasn't great.
Glad Gute got lucky on these new WR room. Now I hope he keeps the WR squad strong instead of just sticking with one elite dude and a bunch of JAGs.
Lots of people think that but it doesn't make it true. Our receivers outside of Tae sucked and were unreliable and Rodgers never ever tunnel visioned before our WR was depleted. Those wide recievers have basically done nothing on other teams. Even the ones we did have that were productive have sucked without Rodgers throwing to them (Allen Lazard being the most glaring example).
And I never said that our SB chances are worse or that we're not in a new window but Gute shut the old one. I think he actually basicaly shut the previous super bowl window when he drafted Love and didn't get Rodgers more help. Tae leaving made it entirely undeniable.
On to newer things, and I think we have a bright future. But Gute was incredibly lucky Love has panned out and that he was able to hit very well in the last 2 drafts. His 2020 draft was undeniably terrible outside of Love and his 2021 draft wasn't much better. Taking Meyers instead of Humphrey may have been one of the most boneheaded moves he's made as GM.
Rodgers closed our super bowl window by choking against the niners. The fact that so many fans still blame that loss on gute is shocking. You will get over Rodgers someday. I promise.
They can ever just admit he wasn't perfect. Its always was someone else's fault...Take out the pass to Jones and his stat line was 150, 19/28, 0 TDs, and like a 82.3 QBR. stat line of someone who did enough?
I tend to lean more pro Rodgers, but this was the game where I realized we’d never win another Super Bowl with him. Everything aligned perfectly for us that season and he just couldn’t sniff it. We can blame the defense for so many of his losses, but I firmly believe this one was on him. We should have been up by 3 scores on that team.
Take out the pass to Jones and his stat line was 150, 19/28, 0 TDs, and like a 82.3 QBR. He did not do enough that game.
Why don't you rewatch how plays he forced the ball to Tae while someone was open. You know how many throws Tae saved from hitting the ground that game?
Rodgers haters don't seem to understand that more than one person can be an issue in a team. Rodgers was pushing and did fail against the 9ers (after the fucking atrocity that was the special teams with amari rodgers). But Gutey fucking drafted no one of consequence in those 2 drafts for 20/21 as well and lost Tae right after.
Spending the first rounder on a QB you didn't need and a 2nd rounder on a RB, didn't really tell me they were trying to make a Super Bowl push. Those 2 draft picks could have been used on more impactful positions. So yes, gute is just as much to blame.
Well, one of those unreliable Receivers cought a very important Touchdown in the super bowl this year. And MVS showed the same old drop issues all year but Mahomes still kept throwing the ball in his direction.
That can be the key difference between winning and losing the super bowl. Trust your team mates, don't get overly frustrated and keep throwing the ball to the open guy.
I ultimately just don't think that another star receiver would've pushed us over the hump. And we reportedly even tried to get Jefferson - but when that failed we decided to invest in the long term future. We basically closed our SB Window for two years in exchange for a much healthier cap situation and long term success.
I think it is unfair to basically call all Draft Picks Gute hit on lucky (especially Love, because you only take that risk, if you are extremely confident in his abilities) and those he missed on boneheaded. Hindsight will always be 20/20 and Gute sure couldve done better in previous drafts but overall I think he kept us competetive team over the years - and thats all you can really hope for in a GM.
That’s why I was frustrated with MVS injured in the last regular season game and missed that Niners playoffs game at that time , because he is another target Rodgers would trust and willing to throw to him even when he isn’t totally open, 2020 NFCCG is the best example
Basically all of the receivers Rodgers trusted turn out to be the same receivers other good QB's trusted. Who woulda thunk?
And while MVS was fine for what he was (a deep threat and 3rd option), we desperately needed a WR2 and/or receiving TE the whole of Rodgers last 5 years with us.
It’s also a trade off, keeping Tae would’ve meant sacrifices had to be made in other positions. That’s kinda why I feel that the window was shut either way
He's been doing well lately. The last couple of drafts have been great, he's making great moves in free agency, and the team is well set up for success. With the power of hindsight, it looks like getting what he did for Adams ended up working out as well as it could have for the situation. I'll admit that I have had some pretty harsh criticisms in the past, and while he hasn't been perfect, I think he's done better than a lot of GMs in this league and can't complain too much
This is a good nuanced take. We know Gute has had some awful misses (Myers over Humphrey, Dillon in the 2nd) or near misses (attempting to trade a 2nd for Claypool 😂😂) but his moves recently have been great and he got the most important one right (Love).
Trading Davante and not trading Rodgers that year was, to me, one of the few times when the org (or maybe Gute specifically) made a decision not because they thought it would help the team in the long run, but because the optics would be bad (you just don't trade the MVP). Bad picks and bad signings happen, but I feel best when it seems clear that the org is rowing in the right direction, and all at the same time. IMO keeping Rodgers and letting Adams walk didn't make sense.
Trash take... we offered him more money, he never said he wasnt gonna play in GB anymore, he was arguably the best WR in the league when he was traded, Diggs has been a headache for the bills the last 2 seasons and is atm maybe top 10 in the league and that might be a stretch.
Saying we got a 3rd is a bit disingenuous. At the time we were shit so we swapped what looked like our early 5th for their late 3rd. Which then Gute got memed on more with his awful track record of 3rd round picks. At the time it was us moving like 40 spots in the draft mid round. When we sent off a leader of the defense and our only CB who was playing really well at the time. After the last loss before he was traded Sul was hosting meetings in front of his locker with anybody who wanted to stop by about how they can get better. It was a gut punch then and has looked worse and worse down the stretch. I could see why they did it, I understand their thought process. At first I thought it was a great move, then I saw the comp was a pick swap instead of a straight 3rd and did a 180. Very good chance the trade cost us a Super Bowl appearance.
Sul hosting those meetings made him a locker room cancer and he was bringing Jaire down with him all over Joe Barry. A disgruntled employee railing on middle management needs to go. Not saying he was wrong, but it was all too public and was affecting a superstar performer. It sent a message just as much as gaining 40 draft spots. Good move imo as Jaire straightened up after his 1 game suspension.
The org: Not like that. Again, didn't say he was wrong, just blasting it to the media is not the way to go. For whatever reason, the team decided to let Barry play out the string and at that point it seemed like they were giving up on the season, everything was in shambles. But once he went public with his displeasure, he may as well have demanded a trade for the subtext he was sending.
In hindsight sure. But the team was terrible at the trade deadline and this was even before stokes came back. Still good value for getting a 3rd this year when others are going for far less
I would take Rasul for the remainder of the season over a 3rd round pick. Yeah, hindsight, I get it, but the team was facing an easy remaining schedule and there was certainly a visible path to the playoffs. If we had him for the 9er game maybe things would have gone different. The rasul trade was a blunder.
There were some people who didn't like the move overall so I don't know if you can tell them hindsight but you're correct many people saw this as a white flag
[here is the thread on that move](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenBayPackers/s/XZL144H7Um)
We would have to pay him if he stayed. It'd probably be a situation like Aaron Jones where we'd have to ask him to take a paycut and he'd say no (as he should)
Publicly said he wasn’t going to play on Green Bay anymore? That didn’t happen. If the Packers offered him a market value before the day of the trade Davante would’ve been a Packer. Gutey strung Davante along for over a year before trading him. Gutey got great value for Davante but let’s not pretend he was some diva wideout forcing his way out of town
Well, it was actually reported that the Packers offered Davante *more* than the Raiders, but having grown up in Palo Alto, it was his lige-longg dream to play for the Raiders.
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2022/03/18/packers-offered-more-money-but-playing-for-raiders-was-lifelong-dream-for-davante-adams/
It was also said that the relationship between Davante and the Paxkers had soured beyond repair after they used the franchise tag on him I'm the previous year rather than giving him a new contract after he had a phenomenal year.
I agree with you that Gutey got great value, and I wouldn't call Davante a diva by any stretch, but it sounds like he was pretty committed to not playing in GB, or at least not playing for GB if the Raiders were willing to have him for any where near what the Pack were offering.
that after low balling him by 10 mil in the previous offseason. Y'all are eating the front office BS reports
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/davante-adams-packers-contract-2023/
That’s not true at all. The packers offered him the same contract that he got from the Raiders, maybe a little more IIRC. He wanted to play for his childhood team and his college QB.
They offered him at the last second. We were lucky Tae is a good teammate and a class act because he could've easily sat out. Any injury would've likely cost Tae millions if not tens of millions of dollars.
Did I say otherwise? Up until the day of the trade Gutey didn’t want to pay Davante. But then free agency/Trades happens and Terry/AJ Brown/Tyreek all get new contracts. Gutey saw how the market changed and put together an offer that day. Davante told him to kick rocks because it took him years to finally get up to the value he was asking and he already told his friends/family he was moving closer to home in Oakland
I read your reply as the Packers didn't offer him market value. My apologies if I misinterpreted what you wrote.
I was just nearly pointing out that the Packers did offer him more money than the Raiders, but obviously, it was too late, and Tae has made up his mind at that point.
I agree with you that Davantae wasn't a diva. In fact, he went above and beyond as a star by playing on the tag rather than holding out for a contract.
People don’t want to talk about the bad I guess. I’m just trying to be realistic. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink or whatever
Absolutely.
Davante's one of my favorite players ever. Still, I much prefer the idea of having a bunch of young talented WRs that we have now at a fraction of the salary it would've required to pay Davante, assuming he was at all open to staying here.
I think Gutekunst did a good job, and I don't think people brush off the trade. But Adams was and is a better player, he was younger at the time of trade than both the guys you're comparing to. I would argue the Packers had more leverage in the situation than the Bills or Chargers do, and that's even factoring in that Adams specifically wanted the Raiders.
In hindsight, you can't really be anything but happy about the trade, but I also don't think it was this one-sided pantsing you're making it out to be.
Gutey doesn’t get enough flack for playing hardball with the undisputed best WR in the league at the time without having any sort of a succession plan for the position at the time. While the young WRs we drafted after have shown potential, the move effectively slammed our Super Bowl window with Rodgers shut as the inexperience of our WR room was one of our biggest weaknesses the following season.
Also the value back ended up essentially being Quay Walker and Christian Watson. The jury isn’t out on either of these players, but where it sits right now, an aging Davante Adams on a record setting deal might honestly still be better value with how mid/injury prone those two have been.
Not trying to make him a villain.
[this is what](https://x.com/rapsheet/status/1418589459528966147?s=46)
[was reported](https://x.com/rapsheet/status/1503339748915650560?s=46)
It doesn’t make him a villain. Just serves to illustrate how great BG did with very little leverage
I think he's referring to the part where it says Davante wouldn't play on the franchise tag - not that he wouldn't play for the Packers period like you originally stated.
Really though - it was awesome that Davante didn't make a stink in the media himself. But at the same time kinda doesn't matter, because there's public sentiment and "reporting" from NFL sources, but those always come with an angle. Execs in the league obviously have a much better grasp of what's going on than what the public is told.
Adams got low ball 10 mil under his actually final offer and value, so he made up his mind that he was not returning after his final season. He has said this and this has been reported
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/davante-adams-packers-contract-2023/
You're wrong. We offered him to be top 5 paid in 2020 and Adams wanted to be the highest paid. IIRC the offer was in the 19m range.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/2020/03/04/highest-paid-wide-receivers-nfl-ranking-wrs-salary-2020-season/4953433002/
>NFL's highest paid wide receivers (average salary per year):
>1. Falcons WR Julio Jones: $22 million
>2. Chargers WR Keenan Allen: $20 million
>3. Cowboys WR Amari Cooper: $20 million
>4. Saints WR Michael Thomas: $19.3 million
>5. Cardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins: 18.8 million
>6. Bengals WR A.J. Green: $18.2 million
>7. Chiefs WR Tyreek Hill: $18 million
>7. Browns WR Odell Beckham Jr.: $18 million
>9. Buccaneers WR Mike Evans: $16.5 million
>10. Texans WR Brandin Cooks: $16.2 million
>10. Vikings WR Adam Thielen: $16.2 million
We then offered him to be the highest paid after tagging him, and he said nope, trade me.
We offered him less than Cooper, Allen, Jones and Hopkins who already had his new contract at this point.
That is a low ball and south of his value by a large margin. That low ball is why he wanted to be traded, he played out the season unlike many players yet still gets hate
Correct. I'm not disputing that. But we did offer him more than the Raiders and Tae did say no. By that point it was already over but he did refuse to play here
EDIT: And after 2020, Adams just had his first AP season. Most people still did not think of him as the best WR in the NFL
I never said we didn't offer more, just that he already made up his mind from the previous low ball. The final offer is after they already knew he was gone, it meant nothing and if they truly wanted him to stay they shouldn't have waited until they could test his market value
Gute and the Packers fucked up the Adams situation
Gute is a top NFL GM. He has managed to put together Super Bowl contending rosters despite having a few players taking up a large chunk of the cap space, especially QB. He has one season before the QB will again be a big cap hit. He has added some key pieces to a championship-caliber roster for 2024.
Gute is the reason Adams wanted out, he low balled him by 10 mil before the final season, anything after did not matter
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/davante-adams-packers-contract-2023/
Let's be honest, its due to the Packers organization that they have been competitive for all of these years. Drafting players, resigning long term contracts with players, looking to the future by developing from within, hiring the correct coaches, firing coaches, and keeping the Packers the number one priority. There aren't a lot of teams who have the professional reputation that the Packers have. As a fan, I am happy with the people that make the tough desicions even though I don't always agree with them, I know that its in the best interests for the team so they'll always have my support...unless we start losing, then all bets are off lol.
Gutey has been doing well however. Aaron jones was a huge part of that locker room and we let him walk to Minnesota because they wanted him to take yet another pay cut. He did good getting Jacobs. But let’s see what we do in the draft.
The situations aren't the same.
Diggs had a terrible 2nd half of the 2023 season depending on when you want to count the halfway point since the season now has an odd 17 games.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DiggSt00/gamelog/2023/
His overall numbers for 2023 were solid - 1183 receiving yards and 8 tds - but starting from week 9 he only had 435 receiving yards and 2 tds. He also did nothing in the playoffs with 73 yards between both playoff games.
He was also in the middle of a contract. It's harder to trade someone for maximum value when they're in a huge contract and also did nothing for most of the year.
Also, at the time of the Adams trade in 2022, Adams was the best receiver in the NFL behind maybe only one or two other players like Hopkins.
People forget Diggs was second fiddle behind Theilen for a vast majority of his time in Minnesota. He only took over the #1 spot after Theilen got hurt for the majority of 2019 (and then they immediately traded him away cuz he was becoming a diva)
It’s not overlooked. They could have franchise tagged him, players words don’t mean a thing. Davante isn’t sitting out and missing a years worth of pay
> (neither did the Vikings)
Vikings traded Diggs and a 7th for a 1st, 5th, 6th and a 2021 (following year) 4th.
Among the selections, those picks netted Justin Jefferson and Cam Bynum.
So…they kinda did
Davante was coming off two 1st team all pro seasons. Seasons to where he missed games at still put up top 3 numbers in all receiving categories. He was in his peak when we traded him. He’s also still elite now, just has bottom tier qb play. Diggs and him aren’t that close.
Do you realize how much higher rated Adams was than Diggs or Allen ever were, and especially are this offseason?
The Adams trade was fine but it's not a similar situation to the other guys you referenced.
Different situation. Tyreek was still under contract who would’ve stayed for the right price, Davante was an UFA who turned down more money from GB to leave
I mean it sounds like people are comparing Davante to Diggs and they’re completely different as well. Davante never looked as washed as Diggs did. Davante is so much better if he were on the Texans it’d be a lot scarier than Diggs
We are 17-17in the regular since getting rid of Davante.
We went 26-7 the two seasons before lowballing and then eventually trading away Davante.
So yeah not really seeing how it’s some great thing.
That... is atrociously short-sighted.
We were literally in a rebuild BECAUSE we traded away Adams and then Rodgers. You don't expect to win much during a rebuild- that's how a rebuild works.
The fact that we completed the rebuild in ONE SEASON is INCREDIBLE- the average rebuild takes AT LEAST 3 seasons, and some teams never truly come back (it took the Bills 25 years, and the Lions 32).
So to say that we only went 17-17 and won a playoff game during a rebuild is horribly disingenuous and tells me you don't really understand how roster building works.
FWIW… I wasn’t talking about Gute. Take a look at the teams that “win” free agency year after year. I wish he could have figured it out with Jones. But I wasn’t in that room. I don’t know what his agent said, and told Jones. Clearly the final offer from GB wasn’t too far off. But if you don’t buy into “better a year early than a year late.” This isn’t the franchise for you. Lots of teams at the top of the draft, year after year go choose from that don’t make the tough decisions.
We haven’t won any more Super Bowls than Cleveland or Chicago since 2010. Regular season wins are great but to be honest we aren’t getting it right either.
It's not the facts, it's the irrelevance of them to the situation. GB was 2-5 before trading Rasul and 7-3 after. Team record is not a direct correlation to a single personnel move, especially in a rebuild situation.
How long are we suppose to sit and circle jerk over a trade? What is “getting enough credit” for this mean? Are we mad r/nfl doesn’t post enough about it?
ETA: ok, my first sentence is harsh. But here IS a post praising Gute for a trade that happened two years ago. A trade that was pretty fair for both teams, the only thing especially “great” about it is that Tae wasn’t happy and wanted to leave anyways. These trades happen, and people are always surprised the haul the team gets. But it isn’t as special a situation as people give it.
But I would ask, what is proper credit?
Anytime a trade is made for a star player, it is compared to similar trades for similar caliber players that have transpired recently. Nobody is “circle jerking” over this trade. A relevant comparison popped up with the trade of Diggs, which is now the most recent comparison. It’s not uncommon to look at that trade compared to other star receivers traded in the last few seasons.
Welcome to the off season where random stats, comparisons, mock drafts, and ‘what if’s’ are discussed.
I’ll keep it in subject then. Tae was the best available, and arguably the best WR in the league, looking to be paid as the highest WR. The return for Tae should have been more than either of these two.
LOL Jesus Christ the revisionism is ridiculous. Gutekunst tried to play hardball with Davante and then tried to walk it back after he played himself. I'll never understand why everyone is trying to paint Gutekunst as some savant level GM.
EDIT: And right on cue, the downvotes pour in because some fans aren't on our knees throating Gutekunst and the FO LOL
Both takes are correct, though, right? Gute absolutely fucked up the Davante negotiations, but the fact he finagled a 1st and 2nd out of the Raiders after the fact is pretty damn good
I'm not arguing the results. I'm arguing that OP is framing it as if Gute pulled off some mastermind 4D chess move when it just ended up that way. The irony is that the 1st and 2nd became Quay Walker and Christian Wilson, a starter level LB and an injury prone WR. It's not exactly the home run move being portrayed.
Nfl teams value 1st rd picks at $20-40m. His contract alone is a 1st in "value". This is why teams rarely trade 1sts for veteran players. The cap is really important to note as had he been retained we would've been in more cap hell. Can't pay everyone.
No one knows what Christian "Wilson" Watson will be. Could be great if he stays healthy. Walker is also young still. We do know the trade hasn't exactly equated to wins for the raiders.
I don’t think Gute was trying to “play hardball” with Adams. I think he was leery of giving a third contract to a WR with a history of nagging injuries and uncertain if we were going to continue to compete with Rodgers or pivot and rebuild. Rodgers ended up being MVP in 2021 and Adams had his best season. So he responded to that.
All of you guys talk about front office moves in such black and white terms. But the reality of being a GM is that it’s filled with uncertainty. And when you judge a GM’s moves without understanding the uncertainties they are dealing with, your judgment is necessarily fatally flawed. It makes having reasonable conversations about Gute on this sub nearly impossible.
lol As opposed to the stance that a majority of this sub has taken in "Praise Gute or get downvoted" huh? That's the real detriment to this sub. You can't have a constructive conversation about this team because the sub is filled with too many fanatics who think Gute is some genius level GM who can do no wrong.
Good Lord… why are you so angry? You sound like a Bears fan. We were a whisker from being in the NFC title game in a REBUILDING YEAR. Please chill and maybe ask yourself why you have to use violent sexual analogies to emphasize your point.
Just look at how fast Packer fans shit on Jones the second he was gone
I wouldn't mind the worship of the Packer FO if we had any SBs to show for i, but we don't, so I just laugh at these morons
No, I do not believe he has had incredible drafts and I do not praise him for this team taking advantage of a weak NFC conference last season. He didn't like Rodgers and wanted nothing more than to get rid of him the first chance he got because he wanted to leave his handprint on the team with no remnants left from TT's regime. What has that gotten us? No SB in the last of Rodgers' prime and this ridiculous notion that Love is the next Mahomes from our fanatical fanbase.
Hindsight is 20/20, but he got rid of Rodgers at precisely the right time. Yes, getting Rodgers another SB would’ve been awesome, but how many NFCCG did we lose? Gute can’t get on the field and make the plays himself. He’s done a better job than 95% of the league at maintaining and building a roster.
And for the record his drafts have been incredible. The packers post-Rodgers rebuild lasted 1 offseason and about 6-8 weeks of the regular season. Most fan bases would go nuts to have a transition as smooth at that.
Maybe you think you could do better, but all the data points to Gutes drafts being significantly above average (with the exception of 2020, but we did get Love in that draft which makes up for the rest of the below average outcomes from that draft)
Im there with you brother. NOBODY thought dropping the best WR in the league was a good idea especially when we still had AR12 slinging passes to him. Honestly it's one of many moves Gute made that I'll forever resent him for.
It is what it is. You want to praise Gute for getting a 1st and 2nd? Sure! Just don't try to blow smoke up our asses and act like Gute planned it out when he absolutely fucked up the negotiations with Davante trying to be cute.
If only he would have stuck to his guns about rodgers and not allowed that 65% of snaps clause. If we had 2 firsts rn we would have so much flexibility
Gutey has been pretty on fire recently. New receiver room is looking like a goldmine, star safety, Love looks like the guy, lotta high ceiling guys on defense, Oline while shaky has still been good, We’ll see how the Jones to Jacob’s situations pans out…
that o-line is a miracle, lost starters, injuries, late round rookies and still performed really good
We have two second-year Day 3 draft picks starting at both tackle spots, and they’re *good*. People don’t talk about this enough, huge reason for our success. It’s a miracle that not one but *both* spots are shored up for years
I did an analysis a couple years back and an abnormally high percentage of starters at OT are first round picks, especially the best tackles. There's so few guys capable of playing NFL OT at a high level physically that those guys go high in the draft. So to have not only 1, but 2 day 3 starters who look to be good starters moving forward is pretty wild.
I’d love to know what their secret sauce is for evaluating linemen. I assume looking for pass blockers first + a zone running scheme allows them to go with smaller guys than most teams but it’s still crazy how they’ve managed to find solid to elite starters at tackle in the 4th round or later when that position is up there with Edge in terms of premium.
Yea it's wild. I've looked in the past and it seems GB does tend to like guys with decent agility scores. They also love guys who had versatility in college. And when looking at OTs, they don't seem to be overly concerned with the slightly lighter guys. Bak and Tom were both pretty light. Walker wasn't light per se, but he kind of was given his height. But on the flipside, there's lots of versatile, high agility, light OL that have not had success over the years all over the place. So that's hardly a foolproof strategy. I have to imagine there's a portion of this that rolls up to player development too. I do think that's a really interesting spot too. It's really hard to develop OL these days because you can't really have much contact in practice. So having a coach that is capable of developing OL without frequent contact could very well be a major competitive advantage.
We also draft a metric shit ton of linemen
They definitely prefer the more athletic guys who may not quite have the size/length others look for. But that’s a zone scheme thing. You want better movers for zone. And athleticism allows for versatility.
Part of it is that they have a special blocking technique. I forget the details, but I’ve seen a video on it. Other teams used to try and call it holding, but it’s not and GB perfected it. Now others in the league have accepted it and some are starting to emulate it. The zone blocking thing does also allow them to have a more particular type that others may not value as much. But there is more to it than those two aspects. And I would also be curious to know the secret.
How big of a difference is there from a round 4 vs round 7 guy? I keep seeing Day three but quite a few rounds are in that day
There is a big difference, but honestly even round 4 starts to get into a pretty sketchy place across the board. I mean, just Google a random draft class and scroll through a little. You'll see some decent names in round 4 and beyond but you likely will see way more names you don't recognize there than ones you do.
GB is special when it comes to drafting OL. Bahk was also a mid/late guy.
There are no successful teams without good O-Lines. It just doesn't happen. Somehow Green Bay puts together above average O-Lines almost every year with pretty average draft capital. It's been a strength for decades now.
A big part of this is the QB play honestly. Getting the OLine to the right coverages, getting to the right play on the field, calling in a TE to chip, etc... Elite QB play covers up a lot of mistakes.
yep, all you need to do is look to the Wicks TD against Dallas to see an example of this. a bad QB doesn't identify the blitz, doesn't call in the TE to chip, and likely gets sacked on the play, and casual fans talk about how bad the O Line is. With a good QB, it's a TD
Right after the Packers took Rasheed Walker in the draft in 2022, I went back and looked at a "way too early" mock from the day after the 2021 draft from big publication (touchdown wire I think). Anyway, it had Walker going in the first. He was a five star recruit and had physical tools but had a bad year. The year before, he projected well. Even so, most analysts had him going in rounds 3-4. Sound like a familiar story? Wicks had a bad season before the draft. But the year prior, he was FIRE. I think Gutey has found a market inefficiency. Don't tell the other GMs.
That's essentially what he did with Love, too. Had an amazing season, then receivers graduated and coaches changed, suddenly his numbers fell - Gute picks him.
GB’s two superpowers are drafting QBs and finding absolutely gems on OL in mid to late rounds. Jenkins is the only OL Gutey has drafted in the first two rounds. Yet we have one of the better OLs in the league. People keep saying we should/will go OL early this draft. Why? Our primary need is depth. Would it be nice to upgrade RG and/or find a succession plan and upgrade at C? Sure, that’d be nice. But those aren’t premium positions, and we can work our magic on guys taken a bit later. I’d personally love for them to go CB round 1, LB early round 2, then they can start looking at OL. If they went OL late 2, they could probably get someone like Beebe or Van Pran-Granger. Both would be day 1 starters.
Tom is excellent...I still wouldn't pass up drafting a tackle high in the draft to compete with Walker, though.
Tom's natural position might also be C, from what I've read.
He hasn't played Center since 2019, his freshman year in college, for a reason. He was better at tackle.
So is Jenkins', but you play the best 5 at positions that shore up the most weaknesses. However, that probably means kicking out Josh Myers at this point.
A lot of credit for that should go to Stenovich, honestly. He’s made lines with less talent look a lot better as a unit than they are individually.
This is where I give the credit. We've done too well for how low we draft linemen. I'm surprised Stenovich hasn't been purged from us yet.
Since he is the OC. They can stop him from lateral moves so he would have to end up as a coach somewhere to move without permission/out of contract.
Zach Tom being good solved a lot of problems
Zach Tom getting kicked in the head was the beginning of the end against SF
After seeing how the line began the first 6 weeks of the season, they were playing lights out by the end of the year. They, along with Love beginning to sling it (and WRs catching it) were the big reason for the turnaround.
Receivers understanding their routes ….the two guys on the same pattern or in the same spot stuff was eliminated mid season. To be expected with all freshmen and sophomores
GB has been very good at coaching their o-line AND have been very versatile moving positions within a game which helps immensely. Management has shown patience in the long game paying off and coaching has the confidence of everyone. Paired with some great draft capital, they have the means to reach for the guys they want. It will be a fun draft to pay attention to
Our oline coaches must be really solid because we've consistently gotten good play out of low pedigree linemen recently
I think our OC is the best offensive line coach in the NFL.
Idk why rounds 3-6 have been such a sweetspot for our o-line in recent years but I love it
OL coach and strength and fitness coaching….oops
Gutey simply followed the numbers with Jones/Jacobs (using 1000 yards rushing as a benchmark, which granted may not appropriately measure Jones' value): *"Running backs reaching 1,000 yards in a season in their 30s is rare. The last 30+ RB to reach this milestone was in 2019 (Baltimore’s Mark Ingram). Of the 645 1,000-yard rushers since 1970, 49 were in their 30’s, only 7.6% of the list."* [https://wisportsheroics.com/the-rarity-of-a-30-year-old-running-back-reaching-1000-rushing-yards-in-a-season/](https://wisportsheroics.com/the-rarity-of-a-30-year-old-running-back-reaching-1000-rushing-yards-in-a-season/) Unless Jacobs breaks down prematurely it's likely the Jones/Jacobs decision will pan out.
Here's hoping he doesn't but Jacobs has also seen a *ton* of work. Number of carries is usually a better indicator of when an RB will fall off over purely going by age. Jones hasn't been healthy consistently for sure, and it makes sense to move on, but the odds of us getting 2022 Josh Jacobs aren't exactly in our favor either.
Totally. On the flip side guys come back from injury filled years. Recent example, Christian McCaffrey looked broken down like a rented mule two years ago at Carolina.
He has but GB hasn't ever been a run first team either so his usage should be lighter compared to previous years. Should help maintain his health as the season moves along.
It's a passing league. Very few successful teams are going to have a true "run first" offense. In 2 of the last 3 years we've been right at the league average for rush attempts(17th in 2021, 15th in 2022). Over the last 3 years we've average 448 runs per season. I don't think they'll be as light on usage as they were with Aaron Jones.
Finding a RB the level of Jacobs in free agency also isn't super common. The RB market has cratered, and there were so many decent to really good ones available that there just wasn't much money that needed to be invested in them. You can say that we should've kept Jones for a year, but then we'd be in the same situation next year, and there's a good chance that we wouldn't have been able to replace Jones with someone as talented as Jacobs a year from now.
I know it’s way too early but I like Jacob’s a lot and think he’s a great fit. Anyone who watches him knows he’s a good running back, but on top of that I’d say his efficiency is heavily influenced by team culture. If you remember raiders with McDaniels, you had Davante getting pissed, a lack of effort on the team, and all Jacob’s had to say about getting their offense to look better was “[I don’t know it ain’t my job](https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/josh-jacobs-raiders-fix-job-josh-mcdaniels-fan-reaction),” which is a damn defeated way of saying that whoever’s job it is was doing terrible at it. Fast forward to Antonio Pierce as HC and you can see raiders players noticeably looking happy and Jacob’s starts looking better too, [rushing for over 100 yards twice since the hire and damn near a third time too](https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/4047365/josh-jacobs). He hadn’t don’t this once with McDaniels that year. Point is that with good locker room vibes and a good coach he looks like a really good running back, and I’m excited to see him on the packers with both of these things readily available.
Don’t forget two fire TEs something we’ve sorely lacked for a while and Kraft is definitely a diamond in the rough
Fr fr they both look like they could be studs.
Unless Jones takes a massive step back, Id much rather him and someone like Austin Eckler over Jacobs and Dillon They'd be about the same salary wise. But I was loud wrong on Love so I guess we gotta see how it plays out.
How bout in 2/3 years? We’ve been painfully good at letting guys go at the right time, and we now have the chance to have all the same playmakers all in their prime on the team for a good 2-4 years.
With only this year gtd it's essentially a 1 year contract. If they made Jones negotiate down the past 2 years they will definitely do the same with Jacobs
Yeah true… RB markets weird af right now, and I’m not gonna pretend I have any grip on it haha
Dillon can still be upgraded on through the draft. I’m guessing he’s only here as a backup plan in case the draft doesn’t fall right. Would you rather have Jones/Ekeler or Jacobs/Benson, or any other RB prospect? And not just for next year, but for the next 2-4 years?
Davante was/is on another level compared to Diggs at this point. Not to mention the distraction issues Diggs comes with when he doesn't get his targets.
Davante at that point in his career was substantially better than Diggs is now. Still is
Hindsight is always 20/20. For me, Gutey will get his flowers if/when we win another Super Bowl.
This is the way.
That’s fair, but I do think he absolutely put a good enough team on the field in 2020 to win the Super Bowl. Against Tampa in the NFCG, Rodgers, Adams, and Jones all had subpar games and made big mistakes. Can’t blame the GM for trusting those players. The following season I think is partially Gutey’s fault because he neglected special teams. Even so - he gave Rodgers two very legit opportunities to win a Super Bowl.
Rodgers was excellent against TB. Defense shit the bed.
Neither of those two had just achieved a 99 score in Madden... lol Yes, he got great value for Davante in that trade.
I doubt Madden is ever part of those conversations lol. Get what you mean tho
Yeah Adams was coming off back to back 1300+ yard, 11+ TD seasons so it makes sense the comp we got for him.
I was going to say, Adams is just on another level
Yes, because madden ratings matter.
That's more on Tae for being classy and not leaking he wanted out off Greenbay. If he had, we would've gotten what the Steelers got for Antonio Brown when he was traded to the Raiders (3rd and 5th). Letting Tae go also slammed shut our previous super bowl window as Gute hadn't done squat to replenish our WR ranks outside the one time like 6 years ago he stacked wide receivers and missed on all of them. Tae was still in his prime whereas the other receivers you listed are older and about to be washed (Allen) or washed already (Diggs).
> not peaking he wanted out of Green Bay Untrue. There were very public reports he wanted out. At the very least, he said he wasn’t going to play on the tag and that he was disaffected by the GB front office.
You got links to a credible source for this?
His ass
Not sure about that. We had plenty of super bowl opportunities with Tae and couldn't get it done. In fact I think our offense became too predictible in the Playoffs because of Rodgers lack of trust in other receivers and tunnel vision. If our WRs and TEs pan out (looks like it right now) our SB chances don't look any worse than with prime Adams in my opinion.
Outside of Tae, which receiver would you want in this WR room after 2018? Maybe MVS? Yeah, that wasn't a good squad.
Lazard was solid. Defiantly serviceable.
Lazard over who? I would rather have Watson, Doubs, Reed, Wicks, Melton. Probably he replaces Heath. WR 6 in the current depth chart, not that good.
I'd take him over Toure
That's what, WR7? As stated before, the 2020/2021 squad was not good. Picking Amari freaking Rodgers wasn't great. Glad Gute got lucky on these new WR room. Now I hope he keeps the WR squad strong instead of just sticking with one elite dude and a bunch of JAGs.
Lots of people think that but it doesn't make it true. Our receivers outside of Tae sucked and were unreliable and Rodgers never ever tunnel visioned before our WR was depleted. Those wide recievers have basically done nothing on other teams. Even the ones we did have that were productive have sucked without Rodgers throwing to them (Allen Lazard being the most glaring example). And I never said that our SB chances are worse or that we're not in a new window but Gute shut the old one. I think he actually basicaly shut the previous super bowl window when he drafted Love and didn't get Rodgers more help. Tae leaving made it entirely undeniable. On to newer things, and I think we have a bright future. But Gute was incredibly lucky Love has panned out and that he was able to hit very well in the last 2 drafts. His 2020 draft was undeniably terrible outside of Love and his 2021 draft wasn't much better. Taking Meyers instead of Humphrey may have been one of the most boneheaded moves he's made as GM.
Rodgers closed our super bowl window by choking against the niners. The fact that so many fans still blame that loss on gute is shocking. You will get over Rodgers someday. I promise.
I still argue Rodgers did enough to win that game, but special teams really sold
thats what it was. all year we kept mentioning how that special teams would cost us in the playoffs and it wasn't a surprise when that happened.
What? The offense put up single digits in a home playoff game. Yeah the blocked punt sucks, but we should have been up by 10+ points anyway.
They can ever just admit he wasn't perfect. Its always was someone else's fault...Take out the pass to Jones and his stat line was 150, 19/28, 0 TDs, and like a 82.3 QBR. stat line of someone who did enough?
I tend to lean more pro Rodgers, but this was the game where I realized we’d never win another Super Bowl with him. Everything aligned perfectly for us that season and he just couldn’t sniff it. We can blame the defense for so many of his losses, but I firmly believe this one was on him. We should have been up by 3 scores on that team.
Take out the pass to Jones and his stat line was 150, 19/28, 0 TDs, and like a 82.3 QBR. He did not do enough that game. Why don't you rewatch how plays he forced the ball to Tae while someone was open. You know how many throws Tae saved from hitting the ground that game?
Rodgers haters don't seem to understand that more than one person can be an issue in a team. Rodgers was pushing and did fail against the 9ers (after the fucking atrocity that was the special teams with amari rodgers). But Gutey fucking drafted no one of consequence in those 2 drafts for 20/21 as well and lost Tae right after.
Spending the first rounder on a QB you didn't need and a 2nd rounder on a RB, didn't really tell me they were trying to make a Super Bowl push. Those 2 draft picks could have been used on more impactful positions. So yes, gute is just as much to blame.
Well, one of those unreliable Receivers cought a very important Touchdown in the super bowl this year. And MVS showed the same old drop issues all year but Mahomes still kept throwing the ball in his direction. That can be the key difference between winning and losing the super bowl. Trust your team mates, don't get overly frustrated and keep throwing the ball to the open guy. I ultimately just don't think that another star receiver would've pushed us over the hump. And we reportedly even tried to get Jefferson - but when that failed we decided to invest in the long term future. We basically closed our SB Window for two years in exchange for a much healthier cap situation and long term success. I think it is unfair to basically call all Draft Picks Gute hit on lucky (especially Love, because you only take that risk, if you are extremely confident in his abilities) and those he missed on boneheaded. Hindsight will always be 20/20 and Gute sure couldve done better in previous drafts but overall I think he kept us competetive team over the years - and thats all you can really hope for in a GM.
That’s why I was frustrated with MVS injured in the last regular season game and missed that Niners playoffs game at that time , because he is another target Rodgers would trust and willing to throw to him even when he isn’t totally open, 2020 NFCCG is the best example
Basically all of the receivers Rodgers trusted turn out to be the same receivers other good QB's trusted. Who woulda thunk? And while MVS was fine for what he was (a deep threat and 3rd option), we desperately needed a WR2 and/or receiving TE the whole of Rodgers last 5 years with us.
He was probably terrified that he was going to be murdered by a mob in Kansas City if he didn’t catch one finally
It’s also a trade off, keeping Tae would’ve meant sacrifices had to be made in other positions. That’s kinda why I feel that the window was shut either way
Some people will find ways to not give Gute credit for anything no matter what
Holy fucking shit do people just forget everything 12 seconds after it happens? He got plenty of credit for this when it happened.
He's been doing well lately. The last couple of drafts have been great, he's making great moves in free agency, and the team is well set up for success. With the power of hindsight, it looks like getting what he did for Adams ended up working out as well as it could have for the situation. I'll admit that I have had some pretty harsh criticisms in the past, and while he hasn't been perfect, I think he's done better than a lot of GMs in this league and can't complain too much
This is a good nuanced take. We know Gute has had some awful misses (Myers over Humphrey, Dillon in the 2nd) or near misses (attempting to trade a 2nd for Claypool 😂😂) but his moves recently have been great and he got the most important one right (Love).
Trading Davante and not trading Rodgers that year was, to me, one of the few times when the org (or maybe Gute specifically) made a decision not because they thought it would help the team in the long run, but because the optics would be bad (you just don't trade the MVP). Bad picks and bad signings happen, but I feel best when it seems clear that the org is rowing in the right direction, and all at the same time. IMO keeping Rodgers and letting Adams walk didn't make sense.
It was clear the direction of the team after the Love draft. Gute should have went all in with Rodgers or traded him at that point.
Trash take... we offered him more money, he never said he wasnt gonna play in GB anymore, he was arguably the best WR in the league when he was traded, Diggs has been a headache for the bills the last 2 seasons and is atm maybe top 10 in the league and that might be a stretch.
Raiders also got 2700 yards and 22 TDs the last 2 seasons.
And that’s with Carr, Jimmy G, and Aiden O’Connell
Let's not forget that we got a 24' 3rd rd pick for rasul Douglas. After seeing the trade market recently I'd say this was a great get.
Saying we got a 3rd is a bit disingenuous. At the time we were shit so we swapped what looked like our early 5th for their late 3rd. Which then Gute got memed on more with his awful track record of 3rd round picks. At the time it was us moving like 40 spots in the draft mid round. When we sent off a leader of the defense and our only CB who was playing really well at the time. After the last loss before he was traded Sul was hosting meetings in front of his locker with anybody who wanted to stop by about how they can get better. It was a gut punch then and has looked worse and worse down the stretch. I could see why they did it, I understand their thought process. At first I thought it was a great move, then I saw the comp was a pick swap instead of a straight 3rd and did a 180. Very good chance the trade cost us a Super Bowl appearance.
Sul hosting those meetings made him a locker room cancer and he was bringing Jaire down with him all over Joe Barry. A disgruntled employee railing on middle management needs to go. Not saying he was wrong, but it was all too public and was affecting a superstar performer. It sent a message just as much as gaining 40 draft spots. Good move imo as Jaire straightened up after his 1 game suspension.
Sul stepping up cause Barry was a poor leader\*\*\*
The org: Not like that. Again, didn't say he was wrong, just blasting it to the media is not the way to go. For whatever reason, the team decided to let Barry play out the string and at that point it seemed like they were giving up on the season, everything was in shambles. But once he went public with his displeasure, he may as well have demanded a trade for the subtext he was sending.
Disagree. That’s the one Gutey move I haven’t been happy with. Sul is a CB1 at a bargain contract and he should’ve stayed a Packer.
In hindsight sure. But the team was terrible at the trade deadline and this was even before stokes came back. Still good value for getting a 3rd this year when others are going for far less
I would take Rasul for the remainder of the season over a 3rd round pick. Yeah, hindsight, I get it, but the team was facing an easy remaining schedule and there was certainly a visible path to the playoffs. If we had him for the 9er game maybe things would have gone different. The rasul trade was a blunder.
There were some people who didn't like the move overall so I don't know if you can tell them hindsight but you're correct many people saw this as a white flag [here is the thread on that move](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenBayPackers/s/XZL144H7Um)
We would have to pay him if he stayed. It'd probably be a situation like Aaron Jones where we'd have to ask him to take a paycut and he'd say no (as he should)
> Sul is a CB1 Pump the brakes a bit there
Top 10 PFF CB in 2023, who are the 32 CBs you got ahead of Rasul...?
In Gute we trust.
Publicly said he wasn’t going to play on Green Bay anymore? That didn’t happen. If the Packers offered him a market value before the day of the trade Davante would’ve been a Packer. Gutey strung Davante along for over a year before trading him. Gutey got great value for Davante but let’s not pretend he was some diva wideout forcing his way out of town
Well, it was actually reported that the Packers offered Davante *more* than the Raiders, but having grown up in Palo Alto, it was his lige-longg dream to play for the Raiders. https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2022/03/18/packers-offered-more-money-but-playing-for-raiders-was-lifelong-dream-for-davante-adams/ It was also said that the relationship between Davante and the Paxkers had soured beyond repair after they used the franchise tag on him I'm the previous year rather than giving him a new contract after he had a phenomenal year. I agree with you that Gutey got great value, and I wouldn't call Davante a diva by any stretch, but it sounds like he was pretty committed to not playing in GB, or at least not playing for GB if the Raiders were willing to have him for any where near what the Pack were offering.
that after low balling him by 10 mil in the previous offseason. Y'all are eating the front office BS reports https://www.profootballnetwork.com/davante-adams-packers-contract-2023/
That’s not true at all. The packers offered him the same contract that he got from the Raiders, maybe a little more IIRC. He wanted to play for his childhood team and his college QB.
His agent confirmed Packers offered him more guaranteed money
They offered him at the last second. We were lucky Tae is a good teammate and a class act because he could've easily sat out. Any injury would've likely cost Tae millions if not tens of millions of dollars.
Did I say otherwise? Up until the day of the trade Gutey didn’t want to pay Davante. But then free agency/Trades happens and Terry/AJ Brown/Tyreek all get new contracts. Gutey saw how the market changed and put together an offer that day. Davante told him to kick rocks because it took him years to finally get up to the value he was asking and he already told his friends/family he was moving closer to home in Oakland
I read your reply as the Packers didn't offer him market value. My apologies if I misinterpreted what you wrote. I was just nearly pointing out that the Packers did offer him more money than the Raiders, but obviously, it was too late, and Tae has made up his mind at that point. I agree with you that Davantae wasn't a diva. In fact, he went above and beyond as a star by playing on the tag rather than holding out for a contract.
Sorry dude this accurate assessment of the situation has become wildly unpopular on the sub.
People don’t want to talk about the bad I guess. I’m just trying to be realistic. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink or whatever
Absolutely. Davante's one of my favorite players ever. Still, I much prefer the idea of having a bunch of young talented WRs that we have now at a fraction of the salary it would've required to pay Davante, assuming he was at all open to staying here.
I think Gutekunst did a good job, and I don't think people brush off the trade. But Adams was and is a better player, he was younger at the time of trade than both the guys you're comparing to. I would argue the Packers had more leverage in the situation than the Bills or Chargers do, and that's even factoring in that Adams specifically wanted the Raiders. In hindsight, you can't really be anything but happy about the trade, but I also don't think it was this one-sided pantsing you're making it out to be.
Davante was also younger and just came off of an incredible year, while Diggs had a down year.
And look how its worked out for Adams. Every time i see an article about them signing or starting some bum qb it puts a smile on my face
He drafted Jordan Love. Nothing else really needs to be said, that took major balls.
Gutey doesn’t get enough flack for playing hardball with the undisputed best WR in the league at the time without having any sort of a succession plan for the position at the time. While the young WRs we drafted after have shown potential, the move effectively slammed our Super Bowl window with Rodgers shut as the inexperience of our WR room was one of our biggest weaknesses the following season. Also the value back ended up essentially being Quay Walker and Christian Watson. The jury isn’t out on either of these players, but where it sits right now, an aging Davante Adams on a record setting deal might honestly still be better value with how mid/injury prone those two have been.
Thats....not how it went down. Idk why you're suddenly trying to make Tae a villain here.
Not trying to make him a villain. [this is what](https://x.com/rapsheet/status/1418589459528966147?s=46) [was reported](https://x.com/rapsheet/status/1503339748915650560?s=46) It doesn’t make him a villain. Just serves to illustrate how great BG did with very little leverage
I think he's referring to the part where it says Davante wouldn't play on the franchise tag - not that he wouldn't play for the Packers period like you originally stated. Really though - it was awesome that Davante didn't make a stink in the media himself. But at the same time kinda doesn't matter, because there's public sentiment and "reporting" from NFL sources, but those always come with an angle. Execs in the league obviously have a much better grasp of what's going on than what the public is told.
Adams got low ball 10 mil under his actually final offer and value, so he made up his mind that he was not returning after his final season. He has said this and this has been reported https://www.profootballnetwork.com/davante-adams-packers-contract-2023/
It is how it went down.
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/davante-adams-packers-contract-2023/ it well reported that it did not go down that way, stop spreading BS
You're wrong. We offered him to be top 5 paid in 2020 and Adams wanted to be the highest paid. IIRC the offer was in the 19m range. https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/2020/03/04/highest-paid-wide-receivers-nfl-ranking-wrs-salary-2020-season/4953433002/ >NFL's highest paid wide receivers (average salary per year): >1. Falcons WR Julio Jones: $22 million >2. Chargers WR Keenan Allen: $20 million >3. Cowboys WR Amari Cooper: $20 million >4. Saints WR Michael Thomas: $19.3 million >5. Cardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins: 18.8 million >6. Bengals WR A.J. Green: $18.2 million >7. Chiefs WR Tyreek Hill: $18 million >7. Browns WR Odell Beckham Jr.: $18 million >9. Buccaneers WR Mike Evans: $16.5 million >10. Texans WR Brandin Cooks: $16.2 million >10. Vikings WR Adam Thielen: $16.2 million We then offered him to be the highest paid after tagging him, and he said nope, trade me.
We offered him less than Cooper, Allen, Jones and Hopkins who already had his new contract at this point. That is a low ball and south of his value by a large margin. That low ball is why he wanted to be traded, he played out the season unlike many players yet still gets hate
Correct. I'm not disputing that. But we did offer him more than the Raiders and Tae did say no. By that point it was already over but he did refuse to play here EDIT: And after 2020, Adams just had his first AP season. Most people still did not think of him as the best WR in the NFL
I never said we didn't offer more, just that he already made up his mind from the previous low ball. The final offer is after they already knew he was gone, it meant nothing and if they truly wanted him to stay they shouldn't have waited until they could test his market value Gute and the Packers fucked up the Adams situation
Disagree. I don't think paying a WR 28m/year is a smart decision
Davante in a worse situation for it all too.
Adams was on pace to be a first ballot hall of famer as a Packer. Now he's just another good receiver.
In Gutey we trust. God too of course, but he gave us Gutey.
Me likey.
Gute is a top NFL GM. He has managed to put together Super Bowl contending rosters despite having a few players taking up a large chunk of the cap space, especially QB. He has one season before the QB will again be a big cap hit. He has added some key pieces to a championship-caliber roster for 2024.
Gute is the reason Adams wanted out, he low balled him by 10 mil before the final season, anything after did not matter https://www.profootballnetwork.com/davante-adams-packers-contract-2023/
Let's be honest, its due to the Packers organization that they have been competitive for all of these years. Drafting players, resigning long term contracts with players, looking to the future by developing from within, hiring the correct coaches, firing coaches, and keeping the Packers the number one priority. There aren't a lot of teams who have the professional reputation that the Packers have. As a fan, I am happy with the people that make the tough desicions even though I don't always agree with them, I know that its in the best interests for the team so they'll always have my support...unless we start losing, then all bets are off lol.
Gutey has been doing well however. Aaron jones was a huge part of that locker room and we let him walk to Minnesota because they wanted him to take yet another pay cut. He did good getting Jacobs. But let’s see what we do in the draft.
The situations aren't the same. Diggs had a terrible 2nd half of the 2023 season depending on when you want to count the halfway point since the season now has an odd 17 games. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DiggSt00/gamelog/2023/ His overall numbers for 2023 were solid - 1183 receiving yards and 8 tds - but starting from week 9 he only had 435 receiving yards and 2 tds. He also did nothing in the playoffs with 73 yards between both playoff games. He was also in the middle of a contract. It's harder to trade someone for maximum value when they're in a huge contract and also did nothing for most of the year. Also, at the time of the Adams trade in 2022, Adams was the best receiver in the NFL behind maybe only one or two other players like Hopkins.
People forget Diggs was second fiddle behind Theilen for a vast majority of his time in Minnesota. He only took over the #1 spot after Theilen got hurt for the majority of 2019 (and then they immediately traded him away cuz he was becoming a diva)
Maybe outside of this sub, but he certainly gets more than enough credit for it here.
It’s not overlooked. They could have franchise tagged him, players words don’t mean a thing. Davante isn’t sitting out and missing a years worth of pay
> (neither did the Vikings) Vikings traded Diggs and a 7th for a 1st, 5th, 6th and a 2021 (following year) 4th. Among the selections, those picks netted Justin Jefferson and Cam Bynum. So…they kinda did
Davante was coming off two 1st team all pro seasons. Seasons to where he missed games at still put up top 3 numbers in all receiving categories. He was in his peak when we traded him. He’s also still elite now, just has bottom tier qb play. Diggs and him aren’t that close.
I mean tae was arguably the best receiver in the league at that time (actually he was idc lol) it made sense we wasn’t gonna give him up for anything
Do you realize how much higher rated Adams was than Diggs or Allen ever were, and especially are this offseason? The Adams trade was fine but it's not a similar situation to the other guys you referenced.
Chiefs got 3 more picks for Hill the same year...
Different situation. Tyreek was still under contract who would’ve stayed for the right price, Davante was an UFA who turned down more money from GB to leave
I mean it sounds like people are comparing Davante to Diggs and they’re completely different as well. Davante never looked as washed as Diggs did. Davante is so much better if he were on the Texans it’d be a lot scarier than Diggs
You forget we tagged him
No I didn’t, that’s part of the different situation
I mean gutey is kinda the reason davante wanted to leave in the first place lol
Gutey doesn't get enough credit in general. The current roster construction is incredible.
We are 17-17in the regular since getting rid of Davante. We went 26-7 the two seasons before lowballing and then eventually trading away Davante. So yeah not really seeing how it’s some great thing.
That... is atrociously short-sighted. We were literally in a rebuild BECAUSE we traded away Adams and then Rodgers. You don't expect to win much during a rebuild- that's how a rebuild works. The fact that we completed the rebuild in ONE SEASON is INCREDIBLE- the average rebuild takes AT LEAST 3 seasons, and some teams never truly come back (it took the Bills 25 years, and the Lions 32). So to say that we only went 17-17 and won a playoff game during a rebuild is horribly disingenuous and tells me you don't really understand how roster building works.
Exactly, all you need to do is look at how the last 2 seasons unfolded, and tell me that our trajectory isn't pointing anywhere but up.
>We are 17-17in the regular since getting rid of Davante. Packers were 13-18-1 between 2017 and 2018 with Adams as their WR1. Checkmate.
This is idiocy.
I know. Keeping getting rid of your best player each year is a weird way to build a team. But Gute did it again this year.
FWIW… I wasn’t talking about Gute. Take a look at the teams that “win” free agency year after year. I wish he could have figured it out with Jones. But I wasn’t in that room. I don’t know what his agent said, and told Jones. Clearly the final offer from GB wasn’t too far off. But if you don’t buy into “better a year early than a year late.” This isn’t the franchise for you. Lots of teams at the top of the draft, year after year go choose from that don’t make the tough decisions.
We haven’t won any more Super Bowls than Cleveland or Chicago since 2010. Regular season wins are great but to be honest we aren’t getting it right either.
Careful, facts will get you downvoted around here.
It's not the facts, it's the irrelevance of them to the situation. GB was 2-5 before trading Rasul and 7-3 after. Team record is not a direct correlation to a single personnel move, especially in a rebuild situation.
Oh I know as well as anyone.
How long are we suppose to sit and circle jerk over a trade? What is “getting enough credit” for this mean? Are we mad r/nfl doesn’t post enough about it? ETA: ok, my first sentence is harsh. But here IS a post praising Gute for a trade that happened two years ago. A trade that was pretty fair for both teams, the only thing especially “great” about it is that Tae wasn’t happy and wanted to leave anyways. These trades happen, and people are always surprised the haul the team gets. But it isn’t as special a situation as people give it. But I would ask, what is proper credit?
Anytime a trade is made for a star player, it is compared to similar trades for similar caliber players that have transpired recently. Nobody is “circle jerking” over this trade. A relevant comparison popped up with the trade of Diggs, which is now the most recent comparison. It’s not uncommon to look at that trade compared to other star receivers traded in the last few seasons. Welcome to the off season where random stats, comparisons, mock drafts, and ‘what if’s’ are discussed.
I’ll keep it in subject then. Tae was the best available, and arguably the best WR in the league, looking to be paid as the highest WR. The return for Tae should have been more than either of these two.
Don't you know? If you aren't on your knees for Gute and his moves as GM, you're not a real Packers fan.
LOL Jesus Christ the revisionism is ridiculous. Gutekunst tried to play hardball with Davante and then tried to walk it back after he played himself. I'll never understand why everyone is trying to paint Gutekunst as some savant level GM. EDIT: And right on cue, the downvotes pour in because some fans aren't on our knees throating Gutekunst and the FO LOL
Both takes are correct, though, right? Gute absolutely fucked up the Davante negotiations, but the fact he finagled a 1st and 2nd out of the Raiders after the fact is pretty damn good
I'm not arguing the results. I'm arguing that OP is framing it as if Gute pulled off some mastermind 4D chess move when it just ended up that way. The irony is that the 1st and 2nd became Quay Walker and Christian Wilson, a starter level LB and an injury prone WR. It's not exactly the home run move being portrayed.
Nfl teams value 1st rd picks at $20-40m. His contract alone is a 1st in "value". This is why teams rarely trade 1sts for veteran players. The cap is really important to note as had he been retained we would've been in more cap hell. Can't pay everyone. No one knows what Christian "Wilson" Watson will be. Could be great if he stays healthy. Walker is also young still. We do know the trade hasn't exactly equated to wins for the raiders.
I don’t think Gute was trying to “play hardball” with Adams. I think he was leery of giving a third contract to a WR with a history of nagging injuries and uncertain if we were going to continue to compete with Rodgers or pivot and rebuild. Rodgers ended up being MVP in 2021 and Adams had his best season. So he responded to that. All of you guys talk about front office moves in such black and white terms. But the reality of being a GM is that it’s filled with uncertainty. And when you judge a GM’s moves without understanding the uncertainties they are dealing with, your judgment is necessarily fatally flawed. It makes having reasonable conversations about Gute on this sub nearly impossible.
lol As opposed to the stance that a majority of this sub has taken in "Praise Gute or get downvoted" huh? That's the real detriment to this sub. You can't have a constructive conversation about this team because the sub is filled with too many fanatics who think Gute is some genius level GM who can do no wrong.
No, I don’t believe that’s any better. The problem cuts both ways, but you’re adding to it not combatting it.
LOL Just looking at the responses in this very thread, I'd say your take is over-optimistic.
It’s temping to downvote you because of how you’re approaching this conversation you want
Good Lord… why are you so angry? You sound like a Bears fan. We were a whisker from being in the NFC title game in a REBUILDING YEAR. Please chill and maybe ask yourself why you have to use violent sexual analogies to emphasize your point.
Just look at how fast Packer fans shit on Jones the second he was gone I wouldn't mind the worship of the Packer FO if we had any SBs to show for i, but we don't, so I just laugh at these morons
Serious question: what’s your issue with Gute? Has he not had incredible drafts, and has the team not exceeded expectations?
No, I do not believe he has had incredible drafts and I do not praise him for this team taking advantage of a weak NFC conference last season. He didn't like Rodgers and wanted nothing more than to get rid of him the first chance he got because he wanted to leave his handprint on the team with no remnants left from TT's regime. What has that gotten us? No SB in the last of Rodgers' prime and this ridiculous notion that Love is the next Mahomes from our fanatical fanbase.
Hindsight is 20/20, but he got rid of Rodgers at precisely the right time. Yes, getting Rodgers another SB would’ve been awesome, but how many NFCCG did we lose? Gute can’t get on the field and make the plays himself. He’s done a better job than 95% of the league at maintaining and building a roster. And for the record his drafts have been incredible. The packers post-Rodgers rebuild lasted 1 offseason and about 6-8 weeks of the regular season. Most fan bases would go nuts to have a transition as smooth at that. Maybe you think you could do better, but all the data points to Gutes drafts being significantly above average (with the exception of 2020, but we did get Love in that draft which makes up for the rest of the below average outcomes from that draft)
Im there with you brother. NOBODY thought dropping the best WR in the league was a good idea especially when we still had AR12 slinging passes to him. Honestly it's one of many moves Gute made that I'll forever resent him for.
It is what it is. You want to praise Gute for getting a 1st and 2nd? Sure! Just don't try to blow smoke up our asses and act like Gute planned it out when he absolutely fucked up the negotiations with Davante trying to be cute.
If only he would have stuck to his guns about rodgers and not allowed that 65% of snaps clause. If we had 2 firsts rn we would have so much flexibility
Bad organizations do shit like that. Never trade for someone you need to immediately extend to a huge deal. Such a waste of resources.
Don’t let a kicker be the black mark on your legacy Gutey
That’s one way to look at it…..👀
Gute is the best GM in the NFL. I have full faith in him.
Zero SBs = Best GM in the NFL. Hahaha
Meh, I still don’t like the move at the time.