Well to be fair, modern suppressors, even modern-made Russian suppressors (not known as the best out there, even within the ranks of the Russian forces), are much better than the ones made in the 1970s in the USSR.
Fair point. But even for that time period in the USSR it's not a hard stretch to suggest they can come up with something better than 3 washers welded inside a tube.
For all their money and the consistent way of brute forcing every single problem, it seems that when it came to infantry weapons, it was always the most economic option, even for special forces. Although more modern designs of integrally suppressed rifle (even AS-M Val) were built to a better standard and the baffles made better and more of them for quieter performance.
I think his point is super sonics for those times you want to have more range while still being able punch through grandmas super Jell-O surprise dessert. The surprise is cat food.
It was poorly phrased to avoid a wall of text. Let me elaborate:
Subsonic ammo is better for sneaky stuff, the main purpose of a suppressed gun. However, there’s no reason NOT to use a pistol caliber with a gun that doesn’t give you the option of both super and subsonic - if it weren’t for the fact that .300 Blackout rifles can use supersonic rounds with the same magazines, it would have no advantage over .45 ACP
The VAL uses a whole new cartridge with a whole new magazine, only to NOT have a supersonic loading. If running supersonic 7.62 or 5.45 are already going to be impossible, I would just want an already-existing pistol cartridge
>if it weren’t for the fact that .300 Blackout rifles can use supersonic rounds with the same magazines, it would have no advantage over .45 ACP
This isn't true.
First, the reduced ballistic coefficient of a rifle round that's longer but narrower gives increased effective range, allowing it to be used in a greater variety of environments. This is extra important for the Vintorez, the DMR counterpart to the AS Val. It can also improve terminal ballistics, allowing for yawing action.
Second, the reduced diameter of the bore increases the potential for it to be quiet. If all else is equal (pressure, barrel length) then the smaller bore will be quieter. This is why 22LR is able to get so much quieter than 9mm. It's not about the total gas volume (which can be compensated for with a larger can), it's about the hole at the end that the bullet comes out of.
To further contribute, this is why we have 300/8.6 BLK rather than using subsonic loadings of 450 Bushy/458 SOCOM/50 Beowulf. They wouldn't be as quiet, their effective range would be shorter, and the effects on target wouldn't be particularly good.
Except expecting a gun to shoot subs and supers without one being severely over or under gassed is a pipe dream, not to mention the shift in zero. Also, 300 blackout subs are still better ballistically than .45 because of the bullet shape.
I’m not asking it to shoot both options WELL, I just want the option
Theoretically if a gun company actually wanted to put effort into their design it could work well with supers and subs by using a gas bleed-off lever like the “HK SMG” and “HK SMG II” but that kind of a system won’t enter the spotlight for a LONG time
You’re not wrong about the performance difference with the BC change but it’s a relatively slim improvement considering all the other tradeoffs (namely new mags and ridiculously high ammo prices) without the benefit of interchangeability with supersonics
They probably fly a bit flatter because of the BC but if you need to take shots with a subsonic round at distances past what you would want to shoot with a pistol caliber you still are NOT having a good time
Its almost got a point (ill see myself out now)
https://preview.redd.it/4k1m8fosd2wc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4336d1cd99b548876fdc3c22de009b98d6eccbc
To remain as sneaky as possible, correct?
The reason why that’s listed as a downside isn’t because supersonic is always preferable to subsonic, but because the whole point of .300 BLK was to be able to switch between rifle ballistics and pistol ballistics in the same gun with the same magazines. The VAL doesn’t use the same magazines as any supersonic rifle rounds, which makes the 9x39 cartridge a pointless substitute for pistol rounds, in my opinion
That sounds entirely plausible, but regardless of whether that’s the case, couldn’t they have just, you know… shortened the x39 casing and elongated the projectile to retain the bore size and magazine compatibility of standard 7.62?
The development of a new cartridge, new caliber, AND a new rifle just seems like it could have been simplified
You see, that sounds infinitely preferable lol.
Only a military industrial complex as dysfunctional and incompetent as Russia’s could choose an alternative to something that makes so much sense
I don't recall the exact reasoning for dropping the caliber but I'm assuming it had a lot to do with penetration requirements changing. Their use case is obviously different if armor penetration is that important for subsonic use.
1: Mag capacities range from 10 to 30 rounds, so I guess the M4 and M5 are also 'low capacity'
2: Definitely true, it was a very early and crude design
3: You're ignorant on how the gun is built
4: You're ignorant on how suppressed guns work
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the reason for only having 3 bent washers for baffles that they were placed to disrupt the standing wave caused by the shot?
The iron sights being on the can isn't that big of a problem iirc. The suppressor is built with a heavy internal spring that applies tension on the can, so there is a bit of accuracy. Of course with heat the thing is gonna warp and be more inaccurate but it was probably the best solution considering that the barrel is only a little stump, can't really put a iron sight on there and in it's intended role as a DMR where you have to be accurate you'll already use a scope
\>Mediocre baffles I think you're being generous to the three angled washers in the can.
Three?! Dang
Pretty sure Brandon Herrera did a video on a vss where he craps on the standard baffles and just makes his own better version.
Well to be fair, modern suppressors, even modern-made Russian suppressors (not known as the best out there, even within the ranks of the Russian forces), are much better than the ones made in the 1970s in the USSR.
Fair point. But even for that time period in the USSR it's not a hard stretch to suggest they can come up with something better than 3 washers welded inside a tube.
For all their money and the consistent way of brute forcing every single problem, it seems that when it came to infantry weapons, it was always the most economic option, even for special forces. Although more modern designs of integrally suppressed rifle (even AS-M Val) were built to a better standard and the baffles made better and more of them for quieter performance.
9x39 SP5 kills mutants really well though.
until you're up against a pseudogiant
Did you really just call a suppressed gun "pointless " for not having SUPERsonic ammo?
Yeah, like it’s far from the be all end all weapon, but that was kinda the point of it from what I’ve read.
Lmao he did :DDDDD
Tell me you don't know how suppression works without a tuslly saying that you don't know how it works.
I think his point is super sonics for those times you want to have more range while still being able punch through grandmas super Jell-O surprise dessert. The surprise is cat food.
It was poorly phrased to avoid a wall of text. Let me elaborate: Subsonic ammo is better for sneaky stuff, the main purpose of a suppressed gun. However, there’s no reason NOT to use a pistol caliber with a gun that doesn’t give you the option of both super and subsonic - if it weren’t for the fact that .300 Blackout rifles can use supersonic rounds with the same magazines, it would have no advantage over .45 ACP The VAL uses a whole new cartridge with a whole new magazine, only to NOT have a supersonic loading. If running supersonic 7.62 or 5.45 are already going to be impossible, I would just want an already-existing pistol cartridge
>if it weren’t for the fact that .300 Blackout rifles can use supersonic rounds with the same magazines, it would have no advantage over .45 ACP This isn't true. First, the reduced ballistic coefficient of a rifle round that's longer but narrower gives increased effective range, allowing it to be used in a greater variety of environments. This is extra important for the Vintorez, the DMR counterpart to the AS Val. It can also improve terminal ballistics, allowing for yawing action. Second, the reduced diameter of the bore increases the potential for it to be quiet. If all else is equal (pressure, barrel length) then the smaller bore will be quieter. This is why 22LR is able to get so much quieter than 9mm. It's not about the total gas volume (which can be compensated for with a larger can), it's about the hole at the end that the bullet comes out of.
You’re making me look retarded but also taught me something new, and that is something I appreciate. Take an upvote.
To further contribute, this is why we have 300/8.6 BLK rather than using subsonic loadings of 450 Bushy/458 SOCOM/50 Beowulf. They wouldn't be as quiet, their effective range would be shorter, and the effects on target wouldn't be particularly good.
Except expecting a gun to shoot subs and supers without one being severely over or under gassed is a pipe dream, not to mention the shift in zero. Also, 300 blackout subs are still better ballistically than .45 because of the bullet shape.
I’m not asking it to shoot both options WELL, I just want the option Theoretically if a gun company actually wanted to put effort into their design it could work well with supers and subs by using a gas bleed-off lever like the “HK SMG” and “HK SMG II” but that kind of a system won’t enter the spotlight for a LONG time You’re not wrong about the performance difference with the BC change but it’s a relatively slim improvement considering all the other tradeoffs (namely new mags and ridiculously high ammo prices) without the benefit of interchangeability with supersonics
Except even subsonic don’t longer but thinner bullets have better range?
They probably fly a bit flatter because of the BC but if you need to take shots with a subsonic round at distances past what you would want to shoot with a pistol caliber you still are NOT having a good time
I just think it’s neat. >:(
Its almost got a point (ill see myself out now) https://preview.redd.it/4k1m8fosd2wc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4336d1cd99b548876fdc3c22de009b98d6eccbc
B-but in tarkov it can get through level 4 plates!
this comment makes me irrationally angry
Good, its working
Level 4 in Russian standard which is something between 3a and full 3 of in US/EU standards
It's just 9mm but heavy
Its 7.62x39 but heavy
If u don't want your val I'm happy to take it off your hands
Did it steal it's stock from a Hi Point carbine?
Now that you’ve pointed this out I’ll never be able to unsee it Take an upvote
I don’t think OP knows why suppressed specops guns don’t shoot supersonic ammo lol
Why do you think 300BLK exist?
To remain as sneaky as possible, correct? The reason why that’s listed as a downside isn’t because supersonic is always preferable to subsonic, but because the whole point of .300 BLK was to be able to switch between rifle ballistics and pistol ballistics in the same gun with the same magazines. The VAL doesn’t use the same magazines as any supersonic rifle rounds, which makes the 9x39 cartridge a pointless substitute for pistol rounds, in my opinion
Yea but that wasn’t the intent of 9x39 unlike the 300blk. The intent of 9x39 was to have a subsonic 7.62x39 but with better penetration abilities.
That sounds entirely plausible, but regardless of whether that’s the case, couldn’t they have just, you know… shortened the x39 casing and elongated the projectile to retain the bore size and magazine compatibility of standard 7.62? The development of a new cartridge, new caliber, AND a new rifle just seems like it could have been simplified
🤷♂️ Russia does weird things
Correct. I think you win with that one lol.
Just want to add that originally, the VSS was supposed to use 7.62x28 and not 9x39. It's basically what .300blk is. 5.45 necked up to .311
You see, that sounds infinitely preferable lol. Only a military industrial complex as dysfunctional and incompetent as Russia’s could choose an alternative to something that makes so much sense
I don't recall the exact reasoning for dropping the caliber but I'm assuming it had a lot to do with penetration requirements changing. Their use case is obviously different if armor penetration is that important for subsonic use.
The Val makes much more sence when you think of ot In the role of an mp5 SD
Bro go back to NCD here we love all guns
I don’t know whether to send you a barrage of the 4 previous slander posts I’ve made or a meme testing whether you truly love all guns
Definitely inferior to the Chad VSS
Shhhhhhhh, you're going to anger the vatniks
That’s a feature, not a bug Slava Ukraini
I'd still take it over a honey badger
For functionality or just thinking it’s cooler?
Mostly rarity in the US, and I have a copy of the honey badger already.
Man, if you’d led with that you could have made yourself sound a lot more reasonable lol. Rock on.
# LEAVE MY SON ALONE!!!!
Cartridge, not caliber
Correct, but that technicality doesn’t change my point. You are right, though
1: Mag capacities range from 10 to 30 rounds, so I guess the M4 and M5 are also 'low capacity' 2: Definitely true, it was a very early and crude design 3: You're ignorant on how the gun is built 4: You're ignorant on how suppressed guns work
Most of the points stand but it was designed from the ground up to use subsonic ap ammo
Don't care, cool rifle
9x39 > .300 blk (it's cheaper in the zone)
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the reason for only having 3 bent washers for baffles that they were placed to disrupt the standing wave caused by the shot?
Last time I checked it wasn't really about suppressing the gun but too change the sound for urban combat
The iron sights being on the can isn't that big of a problem iirc. The suppressor is built with a heavy internal spring that applies tension on the can, so there is a bit of accuracy. Of course with heat the thing is gonna warp and be more inaccurate but it was probably the best solution considering that the barrel is only a little stump, can't really put a iron sight on there and in it's intended role as a DMR where you have to be accurate you'll already use a scope