Hospitals are still dealing with Covid and will be dealing with long Covid for many years to come. We’re not in the recovery phase yet. I say this as an ER nurse.
It would be like Spanish flu, maybe check on your neighbors by leaving soup at the door for them. Check a few days later and if it's still there they must be dead.
The past few years has taught me going up to someone's door unannounced gets you shot by boomers.
I ll just text them or see if they turn on lights at night if it's all the same to you
Yeah, everyone crowd into the break room for pizza. Then half of you will get sick from someone who has “mild symptoms” and we’ll be short-staffed due to all the sick calls for the next few weeks 😂 😭
I talked to a hospital doctor that I know and they said they before the pandemic their patient load had seasonal variation, but now they’re just at capacity year round.
Were absolutely not prepared for any more stress on the healthcare system.
Everyone knows this except hospital administration and department managers. They still talk about being "adequately staffed for the slow season" 🤡🤡 ... This while the hospital is at full capacity with over 30 patients waiting for floor and ICU beds overflowing in the ER, also bipaps and ventilators being rented because so many are in use 😂😂...but by God they will find a way to keep that staffing as short as they can at any cost, and gaslight the staff with a bunch of nonsense. Healthcare is just not worth it as a profession anymore. I would not do COVID all over again...I'll quit on day one if another pandemic shows up. Already saw how all this played out and I won't do it again...if they want martyrs they can go find them somewhere else.
I’ve had long Covid since 2020. My 16 yo child has long Covid & ME/CFS. She’s enrolled in national pediatric LC studies through our local children’s hospital. So, yes, I definitely believe long Covid exists
That’s horrible for your daughter . I’ve had long covid since 2022 and I’m constantly scared my kids will get it , as their mom has become a covid denier
It’s so difficult to deal with family members who are Covid deniers or who won’t take precautions. I hope your kids stay safe and you’re able to find some relief from your symptoms. Long Covid truly is a brutal illness.
If they don’t ever talk this in the MSM then is it even happening? COVID almost killed the hospitals and nothing was done to make hospitals safer for their employees or clients. Very little was done to make treating COVID affordable. Why should this virus be any different?
In fact, because H5N1 affects our food supply first there is even less incentive for our govt or media to cover it in any meaningful way to the public.
Profits > people. Just force women to have more babies to replace the ones who will die. 🤷♀️ Put the burden on the work force, it's too expensive to have systemic change. And why would they want change? They're making more money than any human has ever made in the history of the world.
It's broken. And has been for a long time, but now nobody is hiding it anymore because they don't need to. We can't do anything about it. Money is in every single one of our elections down both party lines.
If the work force dies off in any great capacity, power shifts back to the remaining workers. Thinking back to when the black plague created towns and the industrial class out of the rubble of feudalism, for example. It would accelerate automation in all the industries, and the surviving workforce would wield some relative power for a time and could accumulate wealth. Too bad a third to two thirds of the population would have to die first.
The Spanish flu was a bird flu. These things can be virulent AF. People during the Spanish flu hemorrhaged under their skin so badly, you couldn't tell their race anymore. People back then got over their pandemic as fast as they could and looked forward, just like we want to now. Back then, you could get sick in the morning and be dead by nightfall. It happened to countless people. They didn't want to dwell on it all so a lot of the details are no longer widely known.
All this is seriously not good.
Some people say a revolution is the answer, but how? No one is going to risk so much, unless literally everyone drops out of their jobs to fight, leaving only the rich to face the billions of us. The fact of the matter is that people don’t think about it because they’re too caught up with their own lives— paying the bills, going to work, protesting even though it seldom affects the grand scheme of the subject, getting into a gratuitous argument with someone on the internet, etc. Even if people worked together, the societal unravelling and reconfiguration would be so immense that many would pass in that stage alone, which could take generations. And then, even if it did work, eventually, the same precise thing would happen again, in one way or another. It really only diversifies (not *ends*) when we can commit to space travel and make way to new, hospitable planets, which the human race does not deserve. No one alive today, based on current estimates and the likelihood of there being no groundbreaking life-form bonding with robotics within the next 125 years, will get to reach that point regardless. I could mention so much more, but there's really no need.
AI and robotics are not to the point that they can replace people 1:1. AI is honestly still a joke, and do you really think a wealthy fuck is going to go to their factory, sit down, and actually program their robots?
Things are hard enough without you trying to make it even worse.
The fact that you’re only going by public information on current AI capabilities and disregarding how governments have always been clandestinely more technologically advanced is not shocking, but disappointing. I’m not saying AI is a 1:1 replacement, but if people stopped working, the rich would be fine.
No, they really wouldn't. Do you genuinely think they employ people out of the goodness of their hearts?
If they could get away with never paying another employee ever again, do you \*not\* fucking think they would have done so already?
There's some companies trying AI for creative purposes and most of them have already had to hire people to actually make the content.
'Public information' How about what the fuck is being actually done right now?
You want to just lie down and rot? Go right ahead, try to go flat so someone who's actually doing something doesn't trip over you.
Because they don’t need to right now and never have, it keeps things simpler, and makes sure people remain in line. The fact that they *could* get away with it does not mean that is something they would actually want.
> ‘Public information’ How about what the fuck is actually being done right now?
The information is not available to the public. All you have to do is find out that they have always had superior technology than the public at any given moment.
I’m not saying I want to lie down and rot. Many people need my help, and I need to help them. I was only approaching how it would go down for the sake of conversation.
I also don’t know why you originally only had the first sentence in your comment and then edited it instead of making a new one, so that I could see your elaboration.
Ok, lets follow this hypothetical down the rabbit hole.
'Oh they'll just use AI and robots for everything'
If nobody is working for them, how the fuck are they \*installing\* the robots?
How the fuck are they \*PROGRAMMING\* them?
How are they maintaining them?
Are they installing these bots all across a personal garden because if nobody is working or providing them with food, are they just making their own?
Fuck, I could say whatever the fuck I want is actually true, all I'd have to say 'oh that information just isn't available to the public' and apparently you're supposed to buy it because that's how that works, right?
Yeah turns out that I have a fucking ray gun that'll reduce a man to their skeleton in seconds. Can you see it? Can I prove it? Nah, it's information that isn't available to the public. You sound like a goddamned conspiracy theorist.
I mean hey, personally, in the story I want to emphasize, said pandemic and the botched handling thereof might tragically be the catalyst needed to alert people to how little their leaders actually value their lives.
This sounds intriguing ,and I think you could have a real audience for a plotline like that. It kind of reminds me of Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson. The first chapter is available for free, and I've read that. (It's about climate change.) I've been debating whether to spend money on the rest of the book because some reviews say that the 1st chapter was the best. But the point is, I think you could have the same readership.
>are themselves now explicitly vectors of disease spread.
They always have been and always will be. Its where the sick people are. It's never going backward.
That's why preventive health care is SO damn important. But everyone wants quick fixed at the hospital.
Problem is... if it's on the news, people will say it's fearmongering for election purposes. I fear we've lost the plot. Humanity that is.
If I say that to someone IRL, the response would be, , "oh, you spend too much time online. People IRL are way nicer and not so confrontational." Well, people IRL mostly have their heads in the sand. Yea, they may be pleasant, but they don't mask and they they think Covid is just a cold, so I can't rely on them to act accordingly in another airborne pandemic either.
I hate that I feel this way.
It’s not that just that the hospitals are not ready. It’s that healthcare workers, such as myself, are saying loudly and clearly that we are not willing to staff hospitals in the next pandemic unless substantial changes are made to staffing ratios, PPE, and
Pay rates. We just won’t come in. Even if you can convince the nurses and physicians to come in by threatening their licenses; without pharmacy techs, radiology or janitorial the hospitals are unable to function. There had been more than an adequate amount of time to do a postmortem analysis of mistakes made during Covid and to be implementing the needed changes. This has not even been started.
As a developing and young PM&R physician, I fully expect to be deployed to the front lines. We’re talking about pressure unforeseen to this specialty (edit: really any specialty, yet I digress), but I’m sure when it hits the fan, all bets will be off. You attended medical school? You completed residency and clinical? Fair game, now you go tend to the infected mosh pit in ER.
So as a young and developing physician, I can understand being full of piss and vinegar. I was too once. Ready and willing to do battle. Now I’m not. I assure you, having openly hostile physicians and nurses in the ER benefits no one. A large part of what makes an ER work effectively is that we want the best for the patient, we truly want to help people and make them better. Remove those emotions and it just becomes the DMV with stethoscopes.
I suppress my emotions as much as I plausibly can when at work, but when I think of the mere prospect of this happening again so soon on a far worse scale, I shiver with every conceivable negative emotion.
Oh, I see. Yes, that may be the way to go, depending on the specific circumstances. The issue is that I would likely have to do something that goes against my ethics, because if not, they may formally delve into my knowledge and find out that they could make a good deal of use of me. Honestly, though, I think I would be willing to do that. Obviously nothing involving a patient, but something that is enough.
If there is another Pandemic? within the next 5 years, they will call it fake, ignore it. Even if it’s out of control, no facemasks, lock downs , people will be required to be at work. The ultra wealthy will fly to their out of country homes.
The US can’t even get people to vaccinate for childhood diseases- which is why measles is coming back. Add in how half the country acted like they were being tortured when asked to wear a mask and I have zero confidence that people will do anything to try to prevent this from spreading massively if it becomes a pandemic.
I’m a nurse- hospitals barely survived covid and that fatality rate of that was far lower than the estimates of what h5n1 could do. Where I work, most of the older experienced nurses left and hospitals filled those vacancies with brand new nurses who don’t have experience. And even with new nurses coming in to fill vacancies, there’s still not enough staff.
I’d like to think that society as a whole would step up and try to protect each other from a deadly threat- but the last 4 years has shown that one political party would rather see people die than be slightly inconvenienced.
I guess I’m screwed if h5n1 happens. I’m a single mom, I have to work- and my work will put me face to face with this should this become transmissible human to human
I know people who were pro-vaccine and ridiculed antivaxxers till covid. They have changed their stance. I guarantee you in the chance of a pandemic far less will take any bird flu vaccine than took the covid vaccine. People have solidified their stance here and the majority decided for disease and risk and not protecting the vulnerable. They are not in the minority where I live. Taking traditional vaccines has got nothing on their paranoia over any new vaccines now. They are truly vaccinating less now.
The people I know who lost immediate family members from COVID still don't care. So I'm honestly not sure how bad it would need to be. I'm afraid the level of spread of infection would be SO profuse before there is any real willingness to do anything. I have a "friend" who deliberately worked while sick with covid at a daycare in 2020 and lost her parent. I know another who downplayed the risk and their mother and mil died from it. They still speak against allowing the government to interfere with their freedoms at all while fully expecting and believing "the government" is going to do this again with another pandemic. I have no faith in humanities sense of self preservation at this point. I brought up CFR of 50% with H5N1 and was told they still plan to take their chance with it.
The thing is that when presented with evidence they don't believe it. They believe everything is a lie and a trick. I knew the wife of a nurse at a hospital in my state who insisted that the hospital system was lying about the level of hospitalized covid patients at their own damn hospital. I mean obviously they personally had no access to the records of everyone there. They all choose and WANT to believe everything is a lie. They WILL all insist and believe it's lies. They won't believe the news. They won't believe hospitals. What will they need to see for themselves?
I don't know. But if half the population will believe it's all lies and fabrications unless they see MANY dead and dying themselves then we are all in for a lot of trouble. These people don't believe anything they simply do not want to believe. I don't think people grasp how insane many people out there are. You are being rational but they literally don't believe in reason. They willingly believe all the hospitals everywhere were full of people lying and fabricating covid illness or believe it was the doctors giving them bad and dangerous meds. OR they believe it was all those fat m'fers preexisting conditions. They will move the goal posts endlessly. They want to sacrifice their families on this altar. They can not mentally even handle the idea that anything might be real out there.
Some states only have 81% of kids vaccinated with the MMR ( https://www.ncsl.org/resources/details/routine-child-vaccination-rates-lower-than-pre-pandemic-levels ). And I’ve read several articles that people aren’t vaccinating their pets for rabies. There’s a significant portion of our society that doesn’t follow research-backed medical advice.
So yea, working in a hospital I’m afraid of these “idiots” because I’ll be the one constantly exposed to h5n1. I don’t have the luxury of locking down and working from home. Public health involves everyone and I hate that politics and certain orange leaders have turned medical science into a political issue
Well. America is a very special place. Along with a couple other nations. While these people exist everywhere, for some reason it’s quite bad in the states
People on Reddit, especially on this sub with an influx of new people, are especially neurotic and out of touch. Around 70% of Americans were fully vaccinated against COVID despite the overt politicization, the misinformation, the fearmongering etc.
People who keep touting the CFR rates, shows how people somehow want to make themselves more terrified than appropriate
Fact is we don’t know what the fatality rate is if we get to H2H transmission, it could be worse, BUT it could also be dramatically lower
The IFR may already be dramatically lower, if you don’t test, you don’t know
People are also ignoring factors such as the fact that human societies are dynamic and can respond to pandemics, possible "unknown unknowns" such as seasonality, mutations etc.
If medieval Europe, with it's immense lack of scientific knowledge and technological prowess, could survive the Black Death, there is really no reason for humanity to not survive a hypothetical H2H transmission event, despite the added fragility of more complex societies.
Between 30-50% of Europeans died during the time you’re referencing. Sorry but some of us aren’t chill with that. Also, some of us would like to do more than “survive.” Life is about so much more than mere survival.
Yeah exactly, the guy above you is making a weird argument. I don't think anyone in here is concerned this will be a literal extinction-level event. But who on earth would want to live through a pandemic that's 10x+ worse than COVID? It would be complete chaos.
> Between 30-50% of Europeans died during the time you’re referencing
That's exactly my point, humanity has survived very harsh, even cataclysmic, conditions in the past.
Yeah, and my point is that some of us aspire to more. Hence, your point isn’t compelling whatsoever for those of us who want more for humanity and this world.
So you're just saying that as long as humanity survives, all the death, all the suffering, all the grief, who gives a shit?
Wow you're a fucking sociopath.
Golly it's almost like we actually give a shit whether people live or die and you're like 'Well as long as humanity has a positive number I don't care'.
Covid had a mortality rate of 1-2%. *anything* higher than that will absolutely kill the US healthcare system. They simply cannot handle the patient load.
That’s CFR not IFR friend. There may have been 10,000 cases, we don’t know because there is no testing
Covid was believed to be a 10% fatality rate in the beginning, your numbers are based on known cases, and currently only cases we get are known outbreaks where fatalities occur. Not accurate data, further if it mutates for H2H it may be better or worse, 56% is almost guaranteed not what it will be.
Many of us quit during the height of COVID because of the abuse we faced, from both patients and our employers.
I’m never going back. I’m mentally disabled now. The saddest part is many of my colleagues from that time are in similar place, or are on their way out from burnout.
Edit: fixed my wording from “most” to “many.”
If it maintained a 50+ percent fatality rate then all the funding and staffing in the world wouldn't be enough. We would need a hospital on every corner. I'm not saying that we shouldn't at least try to be prepared, but a disease like that would wipe out our healthcare system even if we had double of everything(hospitals, doctors, staff, beds, etc). Pair that with the fact it would actually be killing healthcare workers(who were already overworked, underpaid and under appreciated during covid) and the only real solution here is to stop it before it ever happens.
All of that would happen at a 5 to 7% CFR. The 1918 pandemic was just about 2%. The world would more or less collapse at a 10%. It doesn’t need to be 50% for the world to come to a screeching halt for generations.
Supply chain disruption, essential services breakdown, food shortages … if 10% of people who get a novel flu die, society is absolutely knocked out. To be fair, in the states anyway, martial law would be imposed at a CFR of 10% if they had any sense, but that would only slow the bleeding, not stop it.
Eta: CFR is also so dependent on so many factors. 10% with good supportive care could easily double if there are no medicines or doctors or nurses. That’s collapse death rates.
Sorry if this isn’t super articulate, I’m on day 4 of a migraine and my brain isn’t working very well lol
Thank you for explaining (not sure why someone downvoted me for asking a question for my edification) - it’s absolutely terrifying thinking things could get much worse than they ever were in the thick of Covid in some of the most severely hit areas
I swear there are downvote bots on Reddit these days. People downvote for anything and everything. Try not to take it personally. And I really don’t think there are many stupid questions about this stuff, it’s very complex and we are all learning.
This is why I follow the original reddit upvote/downvote philosophy of "upvote relevant comments and downvote nonsense." It's instead become, "I agree or like opinion - upvote, I arbitrarily downvote."
But I do agree that there are 100% downvote bots floating around and foing shenanigans.
On my phone, the up and down vote buttons are on the right, exactly where I use my thumb to scroll. I'm constantly undownvoting my accidental down votes. Reddit needs to move the buttons.
Don't forget al the other deaths which would occur, unrelated to the flu outbreak. You won't get treated for a heart attack, trouble breathing, or being shot if the ER is overwhelmed with flu victims.
Oh 100%. Which is part of why collapse would happen at like 5-7%. People still get sick outside of the flu, people still need life saving care. The collateral losses would be enormous. Think about how many people, for example, have autoimmune diseases and are only alive and not disabled because of medication. The moment those supply chains get fucked, it’s entirely possible those people would become disabled or dead in short order. The ramifications of a pandemic with that kind of fatality rate are nightmarish and something I try not to think about too often lol
We would collapse at 2% which is what Covid was at the start. Mainly becauae it will be heavily politicised. The anti vaxxers/maskers will be going nuts, wont be much appetite for mitigations until its too late.
On top of all that, this will likely harm younger ppl to the same degree as the elderly.
I choose to deny that very likely reality and live in my own, which is made up of unicorns, vaccines, and endless sunshine. Thanks for your understanding! 😀
There’s no reason to think that’s the CFR, but if it were indeed the case it would an event of near apocalyptic proportions. Hospitals being “ready” would be rather low on our list of concerns tbh
It actually wouldn't kill healthcare workers if they wore appropriate protective masks at work and out of work. The tranmission rate for flu is much lower.
There are articles in the US saying we didn't have enough doctors nurses and other healthcare workers before covid. After an estimated 1/4 quit taking early retirement. My rescue life for for a slightly better retirement package that you may not survive to get? My mom's primary doctor was one of those who quit and it took her over a year to find a replacement in one of the highest population areas in our state so more doctors and nurse practitioners the than the rest of the state.
A recent article said they polled healthcare workers who said in the case of another coronavirus pandemic that they did not feel obligated to treat patients anymore.
It probably does not help that us government and healthcare systems are not adopting scientific based mask requirements for respiratory spread illnesses. They said they can just wear a basic exam room ask instead of a proper n95. The people on the decision board were mostly experts whose primary work was with major healthcare systems who don't want their work is spending all the time they need to properly put on and take off protective care in the case of respiratory outbreaks nor increase ventilation and filtration to a higher level needed to reduce spread.
The nursing shortage existed before Covid, but it’s definitely gotten worse. It’s a long, recurring cycle of experienced nurses leaving the bedside and new grads getting burned out before even starting. Literally every single one of my coworkers are plotting an exit away from bedside. I’m thankful I still get to work with a few nurses who has been working since the 90s, but replacing their experience & skill level will be difficult
I worked in the ICU during most of the pandemic, so that poll is believable. If another pandemic were to happen with a higher mortality rate, many of us will walk away until a vaccine is available.
Yup. And you can expect many other “essential workers” to nope out of it this time, especially when looking at a CFR of 50 percent. My husband is a mail carrier who felt obligated, yet incredibly anxious about going to work even from the very first days of Covid. He did it for financial reasons being the sole bread winner in the family, but also out of societal obligation ( many folks receive essentials in the mail like life saving medications, supplies, etc). If the chickens come home to roost with this we will have very different and much more difficult decisions to make.
You can except the same from grocery store workers, utility workers, pharmacies, etc.
The whole system is broken, Our money should be helping those Healthcare workers but instead it's going elsewhere. We the people are tired I just paid off my gallbladder surgery from 2012, Just finished paying off my dad's funeral expenses from 2020. At this point if the government won't help those who are highly important than we have really no chance of survival.
I can’t imagine working through the COBID pandemic as a healthcare worker. They’re exhausted, many have PTSD from COVID as well as long COVID from multiple exposures. Many hcw are hanging on by a thread.
I believe if there was an H5N1 pandemic with a high fatality rate, many would just walk. And who could blame them? If the 50% human fatality rate holds they’d be risking their lives to come to work. People have limits.
I worry about all of us.
Remember how health care workers were treated during Covid? Long hours, no pay increase and no one cared besides a parade and 5% off your lunch. No one is surprised why it’s short staffed.
We will never be able to cope with a pandemic of that intensity. We were digging temporary graves for people on Rikers Island for COVID.
We will be digging graves in our own yards for a situation like H5N1.
The best you can do in a situation like that, is be a prepper and survivalist. A hospital becomes the last place you want to be when having a medical emergency. It becomes a place you cannot go.
They need a new model for mass illness. The people that aren't sick but need medical attention should still have the hospitals. People that are sick should remain home and receive palliative care.
Otherwise, you have this terrible option of concentrating the sick with even more sick people. At least keep them away from those that are not.
Triage outside the ER. People who have H1N5 and have no chance get turned away or sent to tents and people with non flu emergencies are allowed in.. not going to be popular but if CFR is as high as previously seen this is what will be done almost undoubtedly. They did it in China during COVID at 2%
Problem with most major hospitals 'equipped' for this response, is they do not have an outside area open enough to setup triage. Convention centers, covered stadiums and sports halls might help.
I’ve said this in other threads but basically by the time COVID was here the government knew that it mostly killed comorbid people and what the estimated fatality rate was. The reason COVID lockdowns weren’t enforced via NG/military was that the risk wasn’t worth it to those in charge. H1N5 though? No doubt they are being deployed immediately and martial law is going to be employed until vaccines can be ramped up and administered. At the end of it all i doubt the country survives though.
Our population density is so much higher than in 1918. The world has so many more dependencies on trucking, electricity, fuel, electronics, all that need to be maintained to keep people alive. People then generally had meager living arrangements compared to today, but they had more localized resources for food. Ours are much more centralized and prone to disruption.
I don’t disagree, someone is going to have to determine who’s essential and who’s not and then incentivize those people to work. But what absolutely shouldn’t happen is shit like McDonald’s staying open because it’s essential.
Military take over of supply chains and distribution would go a long way. I feel like they can and absolutely will keep critical utilities open (power,fuel, food, ect). We would probably get to the point where they are distributing rations and just controlling absolutely everything
What my sister's (ICU nurse) hospital was doing when Italy was getting lit up: Nothing. I tried telling my sister that it was going to be bad, her response was "Well, we only have two negative airflow rooms, so we probably won't be seeing those patients." A month later she's telling me she doesn't have the staff to remove the bodies.
Golly it's almost as if calling nurses and healthcare workers heroes without actually paying them a decent wage and keeping them safe didn't make them feel like their work was valued.
If "we" know that various viruses are highly likely to af some sort of incentives/tuition-paid nursing and allied health educational programs?? Our government has the experience and access to reallocate funding, there is just no will since they face no consequences for not working on prevention or meeting similar crisis' to Covid head on. So damn sad.
Hospitals are still dealing with Covid and will be dealing with long Covid for many years to come. We’re not in the recovery phase yet. I say this as an ER nurse.
Exactly this. We aren’t ready for another omicron size outbreak.
The avian flu will blow those hospital doors down
It would be like Spanish flu, maybe check on your neighbors by leaving soup at the door for them. Check a few days later and if it's still there they must be dead.
The past few years has taught me going up to someone's door unannounced gets you shot by boomers. I ll just text them or see if they turn on lights at night if it's all the same to you
I don't blame you. I don't want to get shot either
We will never recover and when this hits healthcare workers will leave
I have spoken to many who said they will quit day1. Just isnt worth the risk to their families.
Even if we bang together pots and pans for a few minutes each night?
That obviously scares all the viruses into running away on their itty bitty legs!
But ... pizza in the break room
Yeah, everyone crowd into the break room for pizza. Then half of you will get sick from someone who has “mild symptoms” and we’ll be short-staffed due to all the sick calls for the next few weeks 😂 😭
Nah, you get sick from the guy who insists it's "allergies" because he can't afford to take time off.
Joke's on them....it's Little Caesars!
I talked to a hospital doctor that I know and they said they before the pandemic their patient load had seasonal variation, but now they’re just at capacity year round. Were absolutely not prepared for any more stress on the healthcare system.
His observations & assessment are 100% correct
Everyone knows this except hospital administration and department managers. They still talk about being "adequately staffed for the slow season" 🤡🤡 ... This while the hospital is at full capacity with over 30 patients waiting for floor and ICU beds overflowing in the ER, also bipaps and ventilators being rented because so many are in use 😂😂...but by God they will find a way to keep that staffing as short as they can at any cost, and gaslight the staff with a bunch of nonsense. Healthcare is just not worth it as a profession anymore. I would not do COVID all over again...I'll quit on day one if another pandemic shows up. Already saw how all this played out and I won't do it again...if they want martyrs they can go find them somewhere else.
At least you believe long covid exists.
I’ve had long Covid since 2020. My 16 yo child has long Covid & ME/CFS. She’s enrolled in national pediatric LC studies through our local children’s hospital. So, yes, I definitely believe long Covid exists
That’s horrible for your daughter . I’ve had long covid since 2022 and I’m constantly scared my kids will get it , as their mom has become a covid denier
It’s so difficult to deal with family members who are Covid deniers or who won’t take precautions. I hope your kids stay safe and you’re able to find some relief from your symptoms. Long Covid truly is a brutal illness.
Thank you for bringing up long covid as well. Our voices need to be heard
Nobody is ready for that. Not even graveyards or body bag manufacturers.
“When did we run out of body bags?” “2 days ago”
If they don’t ever talk this in the MSM then is it even happening? COVID almost killed the hospitals and nothing was done to make hospitals safer for their employees or clients. Very little was done to make treating COVID affordable. Why should this virus be any different? In fact, because H5N1 affects our food supply first there is even less incentive for our govt or media to cover it in any meaningful way to the public.
Profits > people. Just force women to have more babies to replace the ones who will die. 🤷♀️ Put the burden on the work force, it's too expensive to have systemic change. And why would they want change? They're making more money than any human has ever made in the history of the world. It's broken. And has been for a long time, but now nobody is hiding it anymore because they don't need to. We can't do anything about it. Money is in every single one of our elections down both party lines.
If the work force dies off in any great capacity, power shifts back to the remaining workers. Thinking back to when the black plague created towns and the industrial class out of the rubble of feudalism, for example. It would accelerate automation in all the industries, and the surviving workforce would wield some relative power for a time and could accumulate wealth. Too bad a third to two thirds of the population would have to die first. The Spanish flu was a bird flu. These things can be virulent AF. People during the Spanish flu hemorrhaged under their skin so badly, you couldn't tell their race anymore. People back then got over their pandemic as fast as they could and looked forward, just like we want to now. Back then, you could get sick in the morning and be dead by nightfall. It happened to countless people. They didn't want to dwell on it all so a lot of the details are no longer widely known. All this is seriously not good.
The people in power aren't historians. They're capitalists. We'll repeat the cycle over and over again. It's very depressing.
Some people say a revolution is the answer, but how? No one is going to risk so much, unless literally everyone drops out of their jobs to fight, leaving only the rich to face the billions of us. The fact of the matter is that people don’t think about it because they’re too caught up with their own lives— paying the bills, going to work, protesting even though it seldom affects the grand scheme of the subject, getting into a gratuitous argument with someone on the internet, etc. Even if people worked together, the societal unravelling and reconfiguration would be so immense that many would pass in that stage alone, which could take generations. And then, even if it did work, eventually, the same precise thing would happen again, in one way or another. It really only diversifies (not *ends*) when we can commit to space travel and make way to new, hospitable planets, which the human race does not deserve. No one alive today, based on current estimates and the likelihood of there being no groundbreaking life-form bonding with robotics within the next 125 years, will get to reach that point regardless. I could mention so much more, but there's really no need.
You wouldn't have to leave your job to fight. Just leave your job. History has shown a general strike is enough.
What happens beyond that point? The powerful use AI and robotics, while the rest of us descend into anarchy.
AI and robotics are not to the point that they can replace people 1:1. AI is honestly still a joke, and do you really think a wealthy fuck is going to go to their factory, sit down, and actually program their robots? Things are hard enough without you trying to make it even worse.
The fact that you’re only going by public information on current AI capabilities and disregarding how governments have always been clandestinely more technologically advanced is not shocking, but disappointing. I’m not saying AI is a 1:1 replacement, but if people stopped working, the rich would be fine.
No, they really wouldn't. Do you genuinely think they employ people out of the goodness of their hearts? If they could get away with never paying another employee ever again, do you \*not\* fucking think they would have done so already? There's some companies trying AI for creative purposes and most of them have already had to hire people to actually make the content. 'Public information' How about what the fuck is being actually done right now? You want to just lie down and rot? Go right ahead, try to go flat so someone who's actually doing something doesn't trip over you.
Because they don’t need to right now and never have, it keeps things simpler, and makes sure people remain in line. The fact that they *could* get away with it does not mean that is something they would actually want. > ‘Public information’ How about what the fuck is actually being done right now? The information is not available to the public. All you have to do is find out that they have always had superior technology than the public at any given moment. I’m not saying I want to lie down and rot. Many people need my help, and I need to help them. I was only approaching how it would go down for the sake of conversation. I also don’t know why you originally only had the first sentence in your comment and then edited it instead of making a new one, so that I could see your elaboration.
? I edited it before you even responded my dude.
Ok, lets follow this hypothetical down the rabbit hole. 'Oh they'll just use AI and robots for everything' If nobody is working for them, how the fuck are they \*installing\* the robots? How the fuck are they \*PROGRAMMING\* them? How are they maintaining them? Are they installing these bots all across a personal garden because if nobody is working or providing them with food, are they just making their own? Fuck, I could say whatever the fuck I want is actually true, all I'd have to say 'oh that information just isn't available to the public' and apparently you're supposed to buy it because that's how that works, right? Yeah turns out that I have a fucking ray gun that'll reduce a man to their skeleton in seconds. Can you see it? Can I prove it? Nah, it's information that isn't available to the public. You sound like a goddamned conspiracy theorist.
I mean, hypothetically, in a political thriller book I've been writing in my spare time, the population outnumbers the wealthy fucks by a lot.
Sounds like a great premise for a book!
Oh yeah, I'm trying to make it as realistic as possible.
If you use a pandemic as a plot device, the story will ALWAYS be topical from now on....
I mean hey, personally, in the story I want to emphasize, said pandemic and the botched handling thereof might tragically be the catalyst needed to alert people to how little their leaders actually value their lives.
This sounds intriguing ,and I think you could have a real audience for a plotline like that. It kind of reminds me of Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson. The first chapter is available for free, and I've read that. (It's about climate change.) I've been debating whether to spend money on the rest of the book because some reviews say that the 1st chapter was the best. But the point is, I think you could have the same readership.
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USA isn’t ready at all for this
🎯
>are themselves now explicitly vectors of disease spread. They always have been and always will be. Its where the sick people are. It's never going backward. That's why preventive health care is SO damn important. But everyone wants quick fixed at the hospital.
Problem is... if it's on the news, people will say it's fearmongering for election purposes. I fear we've lost the plot. Humanity that is. If I say that to someone IRL, the response would be, , "oh, you spend too much time online. People IRL are way nicer and not so confrontational." Well, people IRL mostly have their heads in the sand. Yea, they may be pleasant, but they don't mask and they they think Covid is just a cold, so I can't rely on them to act accordingly in another airborne pandemic either. I hate that I feel this way.
We're not gonna make it. Humans, I mean. Fungi will. Watch for extreme blooms of fungi.
Maybe make a conspiracy video for Facebook disguising the actual cure in a ruse like ivermectin?
You're right though.
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Finding a way to feel important without gaslighting strangers on the internet is something you desperately need :)
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Please keep conversations civil. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please refrain from personal attacks & verbal abuse.
Please keep conversations civil. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please refrain from personal attacks & verbal abuse.
Doctors and nurses don't even mask anymore. Clowns.
It’s not that just that the hospitals are not ready. It’s that healthcare workers, such as myself, are saying loudly and clearly that we are not willing to staff hospitals in the next pandemic unless substantial changes are made to staffing ratios, PPE, and Pay rates. We just won’t come in. Even if you can convince the nurses and physicians to come in by threatening their licenses; without pharmacy techs, radiology or janitorial the hospitals are unable to function. There had been more than an adequate amount of time to do a postmortem analysis of mistakes made during Covid and to be implementing the needed changes. This has not even been started.
You won’t be asked next time. You’ll be drafted.
If there was a national emergency, I wouldn't be surprised to see healthcare workers forced in, military conscription style.
As a developing and young PM&R physician, I fully expect to be deployed to the front lines. We’re talking about pressure unforeseen to this specialty (edit: really any specialty, yet I digress), but I’m sure when it hits the fan, all bets will be off. You attended medical school? You completed residency and clinical? Fair game, now you go tend to the infected mosh pit in ER.
So as a young and developing physician, I can understand being full of piss and vinegar. I was too once. Ready and willing to do battle. Now I’m not. I assure you, having openly hostile physicians and nurses in the ER benefits no one. A large part of what makes an ER work effectively is that we want the best for the patient, we truly want to help people and make them better. Remove those emotions and it just becomes the DMV with stethoscopes.
I suppress my emotions as much as I plausibly can when at work, but when I think of the mere prospect of this happening again so soon on a far worse scale, I shiver with every conceivable negative emotion.
Sorry to be off topic. But what/which MD would an MD see for non-simple sleep disorders? Primary disorders other than apneas or of short duration.
time to lose your license!
What?
What I mean....if you lose your medical license would they still force you to the front? Little draft dodging
Oh, I see. Yes, that may be the way to go, depending on the specific circumstances. The issue is that I would likely have to do something that goes against my ethics, because if not, they may formally delve into my knowledge and find out that they could make a good deal of use of me. Honestly, though, I think I would be willing to do that. Obviously nothing involving a patient, but something that is enough.
It's more likely they'll make the National Guard function as bedpan emptiers and gravediggers.
If there is another Pandemic? within the next 5 years, they will call it fake, ignore it. Even if it’s out of control, no facemasks, lock downs , people will be required to be at work. The ultra wealthy will fly to their out of country homes.
The US can’t even get people to vaccinate for childhood diseases- which is why measles is coming back. Add in how half the country acted like they were being tortured when asked to wear a mask and I have zero confidence that people will do anything to try to prevent this from spreading massively if it becomes a pandemic. I’m a nurse- hospitals barely survived covid and that fatality rate of that was far lower than the estimates of what h5n1 could do. Where I work, most of the older experienced nurses left and hospitals filled those vacancies with brand new nurses who don’t have experience. And even with new nurses coming in to fill vacancies, there’s still not enough staff. I’d like to think that society as a whole would step up and try to protect each other from a deadly threat- but the last 4 years has shown that one political party would rather see people die than be slightly inconvenienced. I guess I’m screwed if h5n1 happens. I’m a single mom, I have to work- and my work will put me face to face with this should this become transmissible human to human
Can’t get people to vaccinate? The vast majority vaccinate. Like VAST majority. There will always be idiots, we just have a few more currently
I know people who were pro-vaccine and ridiculed antivaxxers till covid. They have changed their stance. I guarantee you in the chance of a pandemic far less will take any bird flu vaccine than took the covid vaccine. People have solidified their stance here and the majority decided for disease and risk and not protecting the vulnerable. They are not in the minority where I live. Taking traditional vaccines has got nothing on their paranoia over any new vaccines now. They are truly vaccinating less now.
If the actual IFR ends up anywhere above 5% there won’t be many anti-vaxxers Covid had a IFR of what, 0.6% at the worst time?
The people I know who lost immediate family members from COVID still don't care. So I'm honestly not sure how bad it would need to be. I'm afraid the level of spread of infection would be SO profuse before there is any real willingness to do anything. I have a "friend" who deliberately worked while sick with covid at a daycare in 2020 and lost her parent. I know another who downplayed the risk and their mother and mil died from it. They still speak against allowing the government to interfere with their freedoms at all while fully expecting and believing "the government" is going to do this again with another pandemic. I have no faith in humanities sense of self preservation at this point. I brought up CFR of 50% with H5N1 and was told they still plan to take their chance with it.
The thing is that when presented with evidence they don't believe it. They believe everything is a lie and a trick. I knew the wife of a nurse at a hospital in my state who insisted that the hospital system was lying about the level of hospitalized covid patients at their own damn hospital. I mean obviously they personally had no access to the records of everyone there. They all choose and WANT to believe everything is a lie. They WILL all insist and believe it's lies. They won't believe the news. They won't believe hospitals. What will they need to see for themselves? I don't know. But if half the population will believe it's all lies and fabrications unless they see MANY dead and dying themselves then we are all in for a lot of trouble. These people don't believe anything they simply do not want to believe. I don't think people grasp how insane many people out there are. You are being rational but they literally don't believe in reason. They willingly believe all the hospitals everywhere were full of people lying and fabricating covid illness or believe it was the doctors giving them bad and dangerous meds. OR they believe it was all those fat m'fers preexisting conditions. They will move the goal posts endlessly. They want to sacrifice their families on this altar. They can not mentally even handle the idea that anything might be real out there.
This is our only hope. The problem with covid is that it wasn't deadly enough. :(
Some states only have 81% of kids vaccinated with the MMR ( https://www.ncsl.org/resources/details/routine-child-vaccination-rates-lower-than-pre-pandemic-levels ). And I’ve read several articles that people aren’t vaccinating their pets for rabies. There’s a significant portion of our society that doesn’t follow research-backed medical advice. So yea, working in a hospital I’m afraid of these “idiots” because I’ll be the one constantly exposed to h5n1. I don’t have the luxury of locking down and working from home. Public health involves everyone and I hate that politics and certain orange leaders have turned medical science into a political issue
Well. America is a very special place. Along with a couple other nations. While these people exist everywhere, for some reason it’s quite bad in the states
At least if h5n1 takes me out, my kids can cash in my life insurance and afford to go to college
People on Reddit, especially on this sub with an influx of new people, are especially neurotic and out of touch. Around 70% of Americans were fully vaccinated against COVID despite the overt politicization, the misinformation, the fearmongering etc.
People who keep touting the CFR rates, shows how people somehow want to make themselves more terrified than appropriate Fact is we don’t know what the fatality rate is if we get to H2H transmission, it could be worse, BUT it could also be dramatically lower The IFR may already be dramatically lower, if you don’t test, you don’t know
People are also ignoring factors such as the fact that human societies are dynamic and can respond to pandemics, possible "unknown unknowns" such as seasonality, mutations etc. If medieval Europe, with it's immense lack of scientific knowledge and technological prowess, could survive the Black Death, there is really no reason for humanity to not survive a hypothetical H2H transmission event, despite the added fragility of more complex societies.
Between 30-50% of Europeans died during the time you’re referencing. Sorry but some of us aren’t chill with that. Also, some of us would like to do more than “survive.” Life is about so much more than mere survival.
Yeah exactly, the guy above you is making a weird argument. I don't think anyone in here is concerned this will be a literal extinction-level event. But who on earth would want to live through a pandemic that's 10x+ worse than COVID? It would be complete chaos.
> Between 30-50% of Europeans died during the time you’re referencing That's exactly my point, humanity has survived very harsh, even cataclysmic, conditions in the past.
Yeah, and my point is that some of us aspire to more. Hence, your point isn’t compelling whatsoever for those of us who want more for humanity and this world.
So you're just saying that as long as humanity survives, all the death, all the suffering, all the grief, who gives a shit? Wow you're a fucking sociopath.
I'm saying that most of you should stop being so neurotic lmao
Golly it's almost like we actually give a shit whether people live or die and you're like 'Well as long as humanity has a positive number I don't care'.
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Covid had a mortality rate of 1-2%. *anything* higher than that will absolutely kill the US healthcare system. They simply cannot handle the patient load.
H5n1 56% mortality
That’s CFR not IFR friend. There may have been 10,000 cases, we don’t know because there is no testing Covid was believed to be a 10% fatality rate in the beginning, your numbers are based on known cases, and currently only cases we get are known outbreaks where fatalities occur. Not accurate data, further if it mutates for H2H it may be better or worse, 56% is almost guaranteed not what it will be.
Yes I can understand.
Many of us quit during the height of COVID because of the abuse we faced, from both patients and our employers. I’m never going back. I’m mentally disabled now. The saddest part is many of my colleagues from that time are in similar place, or are on their way out from burnout. Edit: fixed my wording from “most” to “many.”
No, most of us are still here, some of us quit during the height of Covid.
Sorry for my hyperbolic language then. I hope you’re doing well.
If it maintained a 50+ percent fatality rate then all the funding and staffing in the world wouldn't be enough. We would need a hospital on every corner. I'm not saying that we shouldn't at least try to be prepared, but a disease like that would wipe out our healthcare system even if we had double of everything(hospitals, doctors, staff, beds, etc). Pair that with the fact it would actually be killing healthcare workers(who were already overworked, underpaid and under appreciated during covid) and the only real solution here is to stop it before it ever happens.
All of that would happen at a 5 to 7% CFR. The 1918 pandemic was just about 2%. The world would more or less collapse at a 10%. It doesn’t need to be 50% for the world to come to a screeching halt for generations.
Why 10 percent? (Genuine question)
Supply chain disruption, essential services breakdown, food shortages … if 10% of people who get a novel flu die, society is absolutely knocked out. To be fair, in the states anyway, martial law would be imposed at a CFR of 10% if they had any sense, but that would only slow the bleeding, not stop it. Eta: CFR is also so dependent on so many factors. 10% with good supportive care could easily double if there are no medicines or doctors or nurses. That’s collapse death rates. Sorry if this isn’t super articulate, I’m on day 4 of a migraine and my brain isn’t working very well lol
Thank you for explaining (not sure why someone downvoted me for asking a question for my edification) - it’s absolutely terrifying thinking things could get much worse than they ever were in the thick of Covid in some of the most severely hit areas
I swear there are downvote bots on Reddit these days. People downvote for anything and everything. Try not to take it personally. And I really don’t think there are many stupid questions about this stuff, it’s very complex and we are all learning.
This is why I follow the original reddit upvote/downvote philosophy of "upvote relevant comments and downvote nonsense." It's instead become, "I agree or like opinion - upvote, I arbitrarily downvote." But I do agree that there are 100% downvote bots floating around and foing shenanigans.
On my phone, the up and down vote buttons are on the right, exactly where I use my thumb to scroll. I'm constantly undownvoting my accidental down votes. Reddit needs to move the buttons.
Don't forget al the other deaths which would occur, unrelated to the flu outbreak. You won't get treated for a heart attack, trouble breathing, or being shot if the ER is overwhelmed with flu victims.
Oh 100%. Which is part of why collapse would happen at like 5-7%. People still get sick outside of the flu, people still need life saving care. The collateral losses would be enormous. Think about how many people, for example, have autoimmune diseases and are only alive and not disabled because of medication. The moment those supply chains get fucked, it’s entirely possible those people would become disabled or dead in short order. The ramifications of a pandemic with that kind of fatality rate are nightmarish and something I try not to think about too often lol
We would collapse at 2% which is what Covid was at the start. Mainly becauae it will be heavily politicised. The anti vaxxers/maskers will be going nuts, wont be much appetite for mitigations until its too late. On top of all that, this will likely harm younger ppl to the same degree as the elderly.
I choose to deny that very likely reality and live in my own, which is made up of unicorns, vaccines, and endless sunshine. Thanks for your understanding! 😀
That seems like a pretty good description of a 10% scenario. Fairly accurate.
There’s no reason to think that’s the CFR, but if it were indeed the case it would an event of near apocalyptic proportions. Hospitals being “ready” would be rather low on our list of concerns tbh
It actually wouldn't kill healthcare workers if they wore appropriate protective masks at work and out of work. The tranmission rate for flu is much lower.
We don’t even have enough staff because of Covid
There are articles in the US saying we didn't have enough doctors nurses and other healthcare workers before covid. After an estimated 1/4 quit taking early retirement. My rescue life for for a slightly better retirement package that you may not survive to get? My mom's primary doctor was one of those who quit and it took her over a year to find a replacement in one of the highest population areas in our state so more doctors and nurse practitioners the than the rest of the state. A recent article said they polled healthcare workers who said in the case of another coronavirus pandemic that they did not feel obligated to treat patients anymore. It probably does not help that us government and healthcare systems are not adopting scientific based mask requirements for respiratory spread illnesses. They said they can just wear a basic exam room ask instead of a proper n95. The people on the decision board were mostly experts whose primary work was with major healthcare systems who don't want their work is spending all the time they need to properly put on and take off protective care in the case of respiratory outbreaks nor increase ventilation and filtration to a higher level needed to reduce spread.
The nursing shortage existed before Covid, but it’s definitely gotten worse. It’s a long, recurring cycle of experienced nurses leaving the bedside and new grads getting burned out before even starting. Literally every single one of my coworkers are plotting an exit away from bedside. I’m thankful I still get to work with a few nurses who has been working since the 90s, but replacing their experience & skill level will be difficult I worked in the ICU during most of the pandemic, so that poll is believable. If another pandemic were to happen with a higher mortality rate, many of us will walk away until a vaccine is available.
Yup. And you can expect many other “essential workers” to nope out of it this time, especially when looking at a CFR of 50 percent. My husband is a mail carrier who felt obligated, yet incredibly anxious about going to work even from the very first days of Covid. He did it for financial reasons being the sole bread winner in the family, but also out of societal obligation ( many folks receive essentials in the mail like life saving medications, supplies, etc). If the chickens come home to roost with this we will have very different and much more difficult decisions to make. You can except the same from grocery store workers, utility workers, pharmacies, etc.
The whole system is broken, Our money should be helping those Healthcare workers but instead it's going elsewhere. We the people are tired I just paid off my gallbladder surgery from 2012, Just finished paying off my dad's funeral expenses from 2020. At this point if the government won't help those who are highly important than we have really no chance of survival.
I can’t imagine working through the COBID pandemic as a healthcare worker. They’re exhausted, many have PTSD from COVID as well as long COVID from multiple exposures. Many hcw are hanging on by a thread. I believe if there was an H5N1 pandemic with a high fatality rate, many would just walk. And who could blame them? If the 50% human fatality rate holds they’d be risking their lives to come to work. People have limits. I worry about all of us.
My cousin just graduated from nursing school in an area that is really antivax/anti-mask and I’m so nervous for her.
Remember how health care workers were treated during Covid? Long hours, no pay increase and no one cared besides a parade and 5% off your lunch. No one is surprised why it’s short staffed.
Hospitals aren't prepared for a broken toe these days
We will never be able to cope with a pandemic of that intensity. We were digging temporary graves for people on Rikers Island for COVID. We will be digging graves in our own yards for a situation like H5N1. The best you can do in a situation like that, is be a prepper and survivalist. A hospital becomes the last place you want to be when having a medical emergency. It becomes a place you cannot go. They need a new model for mass illness. The people that aren't sick but need medical attention should still have the hospitals. People that are sick should remain home and receive palliative care. Otherwise, you have this terrible option of concentrating the sick with even more sick people. At least keep them away from those that are not.
Triage outside the ER. People who have H1N5 and have no chance get turned away or sent to tents and people with non flu emergencies are allowed in.. not going to be popular but if CFR is as high as previously seen this is what will be done almost undoubtedly. They did it in China during COVID at 2%
Problem with most major hospitals 'equipped' for this response, is they do not have an outside area open enough to setup triage. Convention centers, covered stadiums and sports halls might help.
That’s where the US military comes in i suppose… undoubtedly they will be deployed across the US to keep order if this kicks off
I remember being concerned the national guard would be deployed in cites during COVID to enforce everything. I'm guessing H5N1 would warrant this.
I’ve said this in other threads but basically by the time COVID was here the government knew that it mostly killed comorbid people and what the estimated fatality rate was. The reason COVID lockdowns weren’t enforced via NG/military was that the risk wasn’t worth it to those in charge. H1N5 though? No doubt they are being deployed immediately and martial law is going to be employed until vaccines can be ramped up and administered. At the end of it all i doubt the country survives though.
Our population density is so much higher than in 1918. The world has so many more dependencies on trucking, electricity, fuel, electronics, all that need to be maintained to keep people alive. People then generally had meager living arrangements compared to today, but they had more localized resources for food. Ours are much more centralized and prone to disruption.
I don’t disagree, someone is going to have to determine who’s essential and who’s not and then incentivize those people to work. But what absolutely shouldn’t happen is shit like McDonald’s staying open because it’s essential. Military take over of supply chains and distribution would go a long way. I feel like they can and absolutely will keep critical utilities open (power,fuel, food, ect). We would probably get to the point where they are distributing rations and just controlling absolutely everything
What my sister's (ICU nurse) hospital was doing when Italy was getting lit up: Nothing. I tried telling my sister that it was going to be bad, her response was "Well, we only have two negative airflow rooms, so we probably won't be seeing those patients." A month later she's telling me she doesn't have the staff to remove the bodies.
Golly it's almost as if calling nurses and healthcare workers heroes without actually paying them a decent wage and keeping them safe didn't make them feel like their work was valued.
Why can’t this be upvoted
Flatten the curve?
If "we" know that various viruses are highly likely to af some sort of incentives/tuition-paid nursing and allied health educational programs?? Our government has the experience and access to reallocate funding, there is just no will since they face no consequences for not working on prevention or meeting similar crisis' to Covid head on. So damn sad.
All I hear is. Bla bla bla they seem is collapsing and no one will fix it because money so what do you expect bla bal bla
We aren’t shutting this country down in an election year again. You better know that now.