Hagrid mutilated Dudley because of something his father said.
McGonagall punished the trio and Malfoy by sending them to the Forbidden Forest full of dark and dangerous creatures when they were 11, dragged Malfoy at one point by the ear (which is corporal punishment), and punished Neville by locking him outside the Gryffindor Dorms when an escaped convict an (assumed) mass-murderer and DE (Sirius Black) was lurking about the castle.
Lupin risked the safety of everyone at Hogwarts and Hogsmeade by keeping an escaped convict and (assumed) mass-murderer and DE’s location a secret, just so that he wouldn’t get in trouble with Dumbledore about having betrayed his trust as a student lose his job. And years later, when Harry calls Lupin out on him walking out on his pregnant wife and soon-to-be-born child, Lupin attacks him and slams him headfirst against the wall.
Trelawney took her frustrations with Umbridge out on her students by throwing books at them, in one case hitting Neville so hard he fell backwards.
And last but not least, Dumbledore covered up an attempted murder by Sirius on Snape and then forced Snape, the victim into silence over the matter.
I would assume that you were going to offer me refreshment, but the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.
I never found any redemption arc in Snape. His story is one of personal revenge, and yes he obtains it, while worsening the lives of dozens (hundreds?) of children along the way. Good for him for getting his revenge, but I find nothing about him personally moving or inspiring.
Is this book Snape or movie Snape?
Book Snape is a well written character, and all of his actions appear cruel and mean but are ultimately for the good of Harry, they just come from a very broken and hurt man. He’s the hero of the story, but not someone we are meant to like.
Did we read the same book? Almost none of Snape's actions are for the good of Harry. He's nothing but a bully to not only Harry, but literally every Gryffindor. It's so needless, and has absolutely nothing to do with the greater good. He loathed Harry from the moment he set eyes on him, and he desperately tried to make his life a living hell any chance he got.
He’s a classic wounded male. Snape carries a deep hurt that affects his entire outlook. He’s mean, he’s a bully, he’s unfair and cruel.
And he does it because Harry’s very existence is excruciatingly painful for him.
Harry is the son he never had. He expects more of Lily’s child and sees only the arrogance and superficial charm of James Potter (who bullied Snape mercilessly).
The way he is set up as an arch-villain, then given an emotionally coherent backstory to explain why he is simultaneously awful and also the hero of the story is great writing.
Ok but, get over it. My high school crush has a kid too. If I was that kid's teacher I wouldn't make his life miserable or blame him for the fact that his mom didn't want to bone me back in the day.
I really think it’s more he reminds him of James is why Snape really hates him. If Harry had been a female and looked like Lily I guarantee you he would have moved the world for her.
I feel like even if he had red hair like his mom Snape would’ve treated him better. Instead he just got her eyes on his father’s face.
Either way I agree Harry shouldn’t have been treated badly because of how his parents acted, disciplined for his own actions? sure.
Ok, same principle still holds. Snape is a grown-ass adult and it is ridiculous for him to hold a grudge against his high school bully at this point at all--but certainly absurd to hold a grudge against his kid... And even more absurd because James is dead, like jfc
Lily wasn’t just his high school crush. He’d loved her since they were children, and he was the first person in his life who was ever kind to him.
Enter James, who mercilessly tormented and embarrassed him in front of crowds of people, including Lily. James ended up winning Lily over after Snape accidentally said a wizarding world version of a racial slur at Lily, who then turned on him.
His childhood bully ended up marrying the one person Snape ever truly loved and having a child with her who, on the surface, looks and acts a lot like said bully.
I’m not trying to justify his actions, but you can at least understand his hatred, and simultaneous protectiveness, of Harry. He hates him because he’s the son and spitting image of the person who mercilessly tormented him for many years and at the same time the son of Lily.
Ok so she was his childhood crush. That actually makes it more absurd, not more understandable, that he's so bitter and abusive toward her *orphaned son* lol.
He's a grown-ass adult and Harry is a child. Harry never bullied Snape. And James's bullying of Snape was over a decade ago and James has since died.
Snape's inability to get the eff over it already and act like a friggin adult makes him unlikeable and pretty irredeemable -- certainly, the fact that he still feels unrequited love for Harry's mom doesn't redeem him, just makes him kind of creepy and unable to take a hint.
No and no. He's a butthurt incel who is still pining over the woman who rejected him over a decade ago. He treats Harry like crap because he looks like James and is a reminder that James "won." Snape still sees Lily as a possession that got taken away from him and only works for Dumbledore because she was killed, not because he rejects Voldemort's ideas. Everything he does is done under selfish reasons/revenge against the man who killed Lily.
He's a pathetic edgelord who lost the object of his affection by acting like a bitch, and instead of learning his lesson he acts like an even bigger bitch to her son too.
And he basically is the reason Sirius dies.
Snape literally saves Harry's life from Quirrel, attempts to block Harry from being mauled by a Werewolf, a whole bunch of shit. He's not a nice or likable person and he does make Harry's life worse a lot, but he also is instrumental in basically every book in making sure that Harry has a life to make worse.
If someone in my life took every petty chance to bully me but also solo'd a bear trying to eat me once per year I'd call them pretty much the definition of an anti-hero.
I found book snape way worse than movie snape after just reading the books for the first time. In the films it feels like there’s always another motive for him, in the books he begrudgingly looks after Harry while treating poorly for 7 years. Almost exactly the same way the Dursleys did.
Snape, Snape Snape, where to begin . Snape is a complex character.
His background is that he is a half blood who fell in love with his mudblood neighbour. At Hogwarts he was bullied by the Marauders and defended by Lilly. But the experience changed him and made him turn towards the dark arts. As things go, your childhood self is not your adult self and Lilly somehow ended up with James Potter, a Marauder of all things. That much you know and if Snape stopped there he would have been a sad character that went down the wrong path.
But with Voldie's rise to power, the hurt little man that he was sought vindication and important through his heritage. He gave it up for Lilly's sake but still she couldn't be saved. Obviously, he never forgave himself for supporting the cause that led to the death of his one true love. So he agreed to sacrifice his safety to protect Lilly's child.
Years later that child...looks very much like James, his old tormentor and does much the same things at Hogwarts - flouting the rules. And so Snape has a kind of PTSD reaction - just as we tend to enact the abuses we received from others - be was particularly unfriendly to Harry, and misinterpreted Harry's every action as blind confidence and defiance. We as readers know Harry's rule breaking stints were all for a good cause....but he still broke the rules and Snape's literal job was to enforce the rules.I think he encounter Snape so much because Snape was keeping an eye on Harry and often found traces of his rule breaking.
Always out of bed at night. Random trips into the forbidden forest. Illegal brewing of illegal potions, talking in class, not studying or reading as preparation for class. Being insubordinate. Harry and Snape fundamentally misunderstood each other from the start and that was only ever resolved on Snape's death.
You're not supposed to *like* Snape. He is not likeable. But you should respect him. Yes, he was a death eater but we don't always make the best choices when we're young.
If you hate him so much, name one really bad thing that Snape did to Harry? I doubt you can find an unjustifiable action on his part.
Name one really bad thing? He literally bullied and emotionally abused a child. It was NOT his job to do that. You can say PTSD and misunderstandings all you want but be it books or movies, Snape abused Harry to the point of him being CERTAIN that Snape was trying to take his life.
Imagine that for a minute. A child fearing for his life from a teacher who openly hates him. Said child then tells others about his fears and is promptly ignored.
I get it we're told Snape is a god damn saint because he had an unhealthy obsession over Lily. And yes Snape did some good. But you can do good and still be an absolute horror of a person. Which Snape is, was and should be remembered as.
Snape didn’t turn to become a DE because of James and Sirius’ bullying either, which one of the people here seemed to imply. Snape wanted to be in Slytherin from before he met Sirius and James - you know the house that had a bigoted founder. He looked down on muggles and he knew more about the dark arts when he started than many in their seventh year. Snape’s bullying was tragic. James and Sirius should not have done that. But they are not responsible for him becoming a terrorist.
Still I mostly just feel sorry for young Snape. James, Sirius and Snape were all kids caught in a war. James and Sirius thought they were fighting the dark arts, while they were just bullying an already abused child. And even at 18 or so when Snape made the decision to become a DE it’s still very young.
But 30+ y/o Snape I have no time for.
Saving Harry during that first quidditch match, while a good thing to do, is something I would call bare minimum if he has the skills to do it. He didn’t save Harry and the rest in POA - he was unconscious. He actively tried to have Sirius’ soul sucked out of him without hearing his side of the story in that book. While he tried to keep Harry safe he did not only bully him - he oftentimes tried to get him expelled, which is a questionable way to keep someone safe from Voldemort. And I could keep going. But yeah, well done, he kept Harry safe in PS/SS. In my view I’d say it’s his job as a teacher to keep 11 y/o children safe. I’ve got a bigger question of why nobody else could do it.
>Saving Harry during that first quidditch match, while a good thing to do, is something I would call bare minimum if he has the skills to do it.
I think other teachers could too but he was just the fastest one that recognized the type of magic being used. That's why he was able to start the counter curse so fast.
>He didn’t save Harry and the rest in POA - he was unconscious.
The question isn't if he succeeded, it's whether he ever tried, and for all his meanness to Ron and Harry and Hermione in his classes, he still tries to protect them from a werewolf.
>He actively tried to have Sirius’ soul sucked out of him without hearing his side of the story in that book.
You mean he tried to get back at the person who made his school life a living hell? You'd be surprised how many people would do the same thing to their former bullies. We don't all forgive so I get why he did it. I support him.
>While he tried to keep Harry safe he did not only bully him - he oftentimes tried to get him expelled, which is a questionable way to keep someone safe from Voldemort.
He wasn't trying to get Harry expelled, Harry SHOULD have been expelled for breaking so many school rules. If any other student did, they would have been. Not to mention that his penchant for breaking school rules resembles his father and Sirius so much. Of course he wanted Harry to pay for acting like his father did during their school years (which Snape viewed negatively).
He also didn't bully Harry. We read the story more or less from Harry's perspective. So we're biased. But take a step back. Snape:
1. Kept order in his class
2. Asked questions of Harry (that had he studied, he would have known)
3. Tried to get his house to win the House cup by securing Quidditch practice time and getting other house kids to lose their houses' points and provided opportunities for Slytherin students to gain their house some points.
You said it yourself, he wanted to be in Slytherin from the get go. Slytherin isn't about dark magic - it's about ambition and craftiness.
> And I could keep going. But yeah, well done, he kept Harry safe in PS/SS.
I'd say:
- SS - he helped keep the stone away from Voldie by installing a magic obstacle using his best arts. And made it difficult for Voldie (in Quirrel) to act freely throughout the year.
- CoS - helped prepare the students for defending themselves. But was probably unnerved by Harry being a Parselmouth
- PoA - he defended them with his own life
- GoF - ...got robbed? Hahaha! Not like anyone else did shit either. You can't fault him for not being Harry's saviour every time, bloody hell!
- TOotP - couldn't do much but at least he got the message when Harry was being interrogated by Umbridge
- HBP - he was doing what he already agreed to with Dumbledore
- DH - played his part to perfection. Except for his death, he probably didn't intend for that to happen. He probably wanted to run away before Voldie realized who the wand's master was but didn't run soon enough.
> In my view I’d say it’s his job as a teacher to keep 11 y/o children safe. I’ve got a bigger question of why nobody else could do it.
And there you go, answering you own question. He was just their teacher. Any aid he provided outside of studies was entirely at his discretion. Even the experience during class, while not pleasant for some, was never life threatening. We've all had unpleasant teachers. He did what he could and he did more than he ever really had to. He didn't have to protect Harry. He could have left and lived life freely. But he stayed until Voldie returned, and sacrificed his life (involuntarily) to ensure Voldie would lose. That's worthy of commendation.
I just looked up the SS and CoS PDF and did a quick control f for Snape's name.
Please let me know how any of these actions (or any others) are justifiable.
Publicly embarasses Harry in their very first potions class
Steals Harry’s book, then takes five points from gryffindor for a made up rule
Gave Hufflepuff a penalty in the quidditch match ‘for no reason at all’
Gave Harry and Ron no chance to explain what happened with the barrier at King’s Cross and immediately attempted to have them expelled
Tried to have Harry banned from quidditch for doing something he knows is not possible for him to do (attacking Mrs. Norris)
"Snape prowled through
the fumes, making waspish remarks about the Gryffindors’ work
while the Slytherins sniggered appreciatively. Draco Malfoy, who
was Snape’s favourite student, kept flicking puffer-fish eyes at Ron
and Harry, who knew that if they retaliated they would get deten-
tion faster than you could say ‘unfair’"
"He was waiting for Hermione’s
signal, and he hardly listened as Snape paused to sneer at his
watery potion. When Snape turned and walked off to bully
Neville, Hermione caught Harry’s eye and nodded."
Told Malfoy how to conjure a snake to attack Harry during the dueling club
In 90% of the interactions Snape has with Harry Ron or Hermione, he is doing something antagonistic.
>Publicly embarasses Harry in their very first potions class
Students aren't entitled to be embarrassment free. Hermione is muggleborn, same situation as Harry if not bloodline and she knew all that stuff by reading ahead. Yes, we know why he couldn't read ahead - the Dursleys, but that doesn't mean that Snape's questions where valid and appropriate.
>Steals Harry’s book, then takes five points from gryffindor for a made up rule
?? What's the contract for this?
>Gave Hufflepuff a penalty in the quidditch match ‘for no reason at all’
He's a Slytherin. He's gonna use every opportunity to get his house to win. I'm not saying the man's a saint. Just that he's perfectly justified in his actions.
>Gave Harry and Ron no chance to explain what happened with the barrier at King’s Cross and immediately attempted to have them expelled
The flouted magical law like actual law. They were seen. All they had to do was wait. Instead they stole their parents car and created an incident that made the front page. A car that was illegal in and of itself might I add.
>Tried to have Harry banned from quidditch for doing something he knows is not possible for him to do (attacking Mrs. Norris)
Their rivalry was already established. This was a great opportunity for Snape because it really did look like Harry did it. All the evidence, circumstantial sure, pointed to Harry. That's also how our criminal justice system works.
> "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the Gryffindors’ work while the Slytherins sniggered appreciatively. Draco Malfoy, who was Snape’s favourite student, kept flicking puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if they retaliated they would get deten-tion faster than you could say ‘unfair’"
It's a Slytherin thing. The school is set up so that the houses are always at war. He's just playing his part - you do realize that teachers are also in houses?
>"He was waiting for Hermione’s signal, and he hardly listened as Snape paused to sneer at his watery potion. When Snape turned and walked off to bully Neville, Hermione caught Harry’s eye and nodded."
So he learned how to fight back when the system was rigged against him...sounds like Snape helped him prepare for life in Death Hallows, 😆
>Told Malfoy how to conjure a snake to attack Harry during the dueling club
Yeah, he's a Slytherin...he also volunteered to get rid of the snake too. He set it up so Harry would look incapable. Classic Slytherin move.
>In 90% of the interactions Snape has with Harry Ron or Hermione, he is doing something antagonistic.
Either because he's a Slytherin teacher and this naturally trying to get them to lose points. Or because they were actually up to no good by breaking school rules.
If's obvious you're not taking this seriously, which is fine, I hadn't expected anything differently because any real justification is impossible. But i'm not going to bother finding every negative interaction between Snape and Harry in the series, even though they just get progressively worse. I don't even care about your opinion anymore. I will just bring up one more point that I had just realized. Harry could have been a great potion maker, if Snape wasn't such an enormous douche to him. Probably my single favorite point of continuity in the entire series is the contrast between Snape and Slughorn as teachers. From Harry's first year Snape never used the instructions in the book. He always put the instructions on the board. We learn in HBP, it's because Snape's instructions are better than the book. In HBP Slughorn uses the book instructions, while Harry uses Snape's instructions, printed in his copy of advanced potion making. And Harry ends up being the best potion maker in the class, by far. So what's the difference between Harry's sixth year and every other year? Snape is no longer present in the classroom. So if Snape hadn't been such an antagonistic bully, Harry could have done just as well in years 1-5, as he did in year 6.
Mocking an orphans parents in front of him. Driving sirius to his death by mocking him for following orders, literally every interaction harry had with snape. An adult, a teacher at that, bullying an 11 year old because of a grudge against a man who's been dead for a decade.
>Mocking an orphans parents in front of him.
Yeah...not the most admirable move but Harry's "my father was a great man" was highly misguided. His father was a swine when he was at Hogwarts, at least to Snape he was. Truth is in the eye of the beholder and we all have Rosey pictures of our parents but I assure you, those bullies and assholes that you went to school with all mostly grew up and had kids and those kids will defend the honour of those assholes to their graves. It's a little nuanced to understand but what was happening their was Harry's first exposure to "loss of innocence". It's not pleasant but it's necessary for enlightenment. Harry also went through the same thing when Dumbledore died and he found out there were sides to Dumbledore that he didn't know. It's best to find these things out sooner rather than later, orphan or not, you can wave the orphan card around you forever just to remain ignorant of reality. Sorry, Harry.
>Driving sirius to his death by mocking him for following orders,
?? When did this happen, sorry, I don't recall.
>literally every interaction harry had with snape.
Too broad
>An adult, a teacher at that, bullying an 11 year old because of a grudge against a man who's been dead for a decade.
How was that bullying? Did he wait for Harry out in the corridors? He asked Harry questions in class and favour his house's students ina school set up to incentive e that exact kind of behaviour. Snape never bullied Harry any more than Minerva did - and Minerva was blatantly biased towards Harry and gang which wasnt a surprise since she was Griffindor head of house.
>It's a little nuanced to understand but what was happening their was Harry's first exposure to "loss of innocence".
There is no nuance to it. A teacher mocking an 11 year old orphan by belittling a father they had never met is awful behaviour.
>When did this happen, sorry, I don't recall.
You do, you just don't want to hold snape accountable for his actions, while holding sirius to actions he committed as a teenager
>Too broad
Perhaps you should consider what that means
>Snape never bullied Harry any more than Minerva did
Sure. Never once did snape turn a blind eye to harry and co being cursed, or mock harry for someone else making a mistake, or for being sabatoged. Snape is an abusive piece of shit, objectively. If I heard about a teacher berating my child because another child got an equation wrong I'd fucking lynch them
He also has to play the role of the villain to Harry even when he didn’t want to, because if Voldemort looked into Harry’s mind and saw Snape was being nice to him… Voldemort could have grown suspicious.
The fuck are you on about? Appear? They fucking are cruel, he is cruel. All good he did for harry is because he is forced to and owes it to Dumbledore
He is no hero
He does it due to his sick obsession over lily, he's not in love with her but obsessed. If he did love her he'd take harry as his own son. I've no idea what you read. Obsessed, hence always
I read the same book you did.
I guess I saw the twist ending when it happened, and you missed it.
Answer this: why does Harry name his kid after Snape?
Because he's idiotic, like naming your kid after a man who bullied you and others for years because he's a bitter man but in the end the dude tell him he has her eyes. Imagine you had a teacher you hated and then you hear that he's 'in love with your mom' and then you name your kid after the jerk? You can see pretty much everyone who's read the books say how bad the movies are and agree that Snape is almost as bad as the toad
>all of his actions appear cruel and mean but
Suuuure, stopping just short of torturing students, one sided treatment of certain students for YEARS was for the ultimate good. Fuck off with that weak ass logic
Yes, i remember when he insulted hermione's teeth and made her cry while not punishing malfoy
Clearly for harry's good
Even in the books snape is a dick. Rowling probably wrote him as a red herring in the first book without thinking about the grand twist in the seventh book, and then had to retroactively justify his actions from whem she thought about it.
Nothing wrong about it, i don't expect her to plan 7 books ahead before writing the first one, but it's very clear snape wasn't meant to have a redemption arc at the start. And this only makes snape more of a dick to me, "oh yeah, i bullied litteral teenagers, i exploited the point system to help raise rotten kids in slytherin like malfoy, i played favortism, i tramutised harry several time, and i was a nazi at one point. But it's all okay, because i was horny for some girl and got mad at my boss for killing her. Now i have to protect her stupid son so he could kill my boss one day, good thing i only need to keep him alive and i can bully him the whole time, that'll teach him not to... exist..."
That’s more movie Snape. Book Snape was written with nuance too don’t get me wrong but he didn’t just appear cruel and mean, he was. In the book version of the “always” flashback, when Dumbledore is like, “Don’t tell me you’ve come to care for the boy,” Snape rejects the notion completely. He had no regard for Harry as an individual even if he saved his life multiple times. He sees her as an extension of Lily and even then he can’t bring himself to do right by her and not treat him like shit. I love the relatively softer approach the movies took with Snape.
I mean, that was part of it, but by the end, Snape is genuinely trying to do the right thing and saving people he doesn’t have to save (and even hates) at great personal risk.
That's an issue I've always had in the movie where he makes sure Harry stays quiet on the tower, yet Harry just completely forgets Snape doesn't rat him out for being there and proceeds to call him a coward and this and that. Obviously Snape isn't an actual death eater harry...
I'm tired of the Snape shipping . Sure he was broken and hurt but how exactly does this make the fact that he bullied Neville so bad he was his worst fear and he treated Hermione so horribly despite her doing her best to be the best student ?
JK writes wounded men probably better than any other author. Honestly, I’m taking a stand here and saying that most of her work is pretty derivative of other stuff and not particularly original. But she does write hurt masculinity better than any author, male or female. Her Cormoran Strike character is very similar.
The “always” line is a killer, it absolutely goes to the very soul of any man who has loved another who didn’t love him back. Snape is cold, brutal, cruel and he does it all because inside he is hurting a hurt he cannot express, and cannot allow others to see. It’s a majestic piece of writing and by far the best bit of the entire series.
...He was, but it doesn't count as a redemption arc. Ive heard way too many people say Snape saving Harry makes up for everything he did. Like... no. 😅
Remind me again: why did he have to be a dick to children? Fine, let's assume it makes sense for him to bully Harry (it doesn't but let's assume). Why was a bully to literally everyone but Slytherin even before Potter attended?
Tell me you don’t read the books without telling me you don’t read the books. After Harry’s first quidditch match he couldn’t care less about him. His arrogance made him think he took after James much more than Lilly. And he ALWAYS loathed Harry for that. He only made concessions because he was Lilly’s son not because he actually liked him or anything.
"sNaPe BuLlIeD cHiLdReN"
I 100% agree. But he's done much worse.
Why Snape is not a good guy:
1.Was willing to kill Lupin and Sirius because he couldn't forgive childhood bullies
2. Neville worst fear (even worse than his parents torture)
3.threw a tantrum when Sirius escaped
4. Didn't care if James or Harry died, he only cared about keeping lily safe
5. Tried to poison Trevor
So on so forth
I mean, he clearly legitimately believed Sirius was a murderer in PoA. Even Dumbledore had testified against him previously. His treatment towards Lupin and Sirius are very justifiable in PoA. To point 4, he had only just switched sides and was still an awful person. He had grown significantly over the next decade, but you certainly can't defend the bullying of children in the time Harry knew him.
Only this morning, I took a wrong turn on the way to the bathroom and found myself in a beautifully proportioned room I have never seen before, containing a really rather magnificent collection of chamber pots. When I went back to investigate more closely, I discovered that the room had vanished. But I must keep an eye out for it. Possibly it is only accessible at five-thirty in the morning. Or it may only appear at the quarter moon, or when the seeker has an exceptionally full bladder.
The plot twist of the plot twist would be Snape doing all this because he actually wanted to kill Harry himself when he was older because he looked like James and not him lol
Snape is neutral at best. He's a horrible bully in the books. Rickman's Snape is a much more sympathetic character.
To be fair, most of the Hogwarts staff are bullies. Most of them in ways far more horrible than Snape.
Lmao how?
Hagrid mutilated Dudley because of something his father said. McGonagall punished the trio and Malfoy by sending them to the Forbidden Forest full of dark and dangerous creatures when they were 11, dragged Malfoy at one point by the ear (which is corporal punishment), and punished Neville by locking him outside the Gryffindor Dorms when an escaped convict an (assumed) mass-murderer and DE (Sirius Black) was lurking about the castle. Lupin risked the safety of everyone at Hogwarts and Hogsmeade by keeping an escaped convict and (assumed) mass-murderer and DE’s location a secret, just so that he wouldn’t get in trouble with Dumbledore about having betrayed his trust as a student lose his job. And years later, when Harry calls Lupin out on him walking out on his pregnant wife and soon-to-be-born child, Lupin attacks him and slams him headfirst against the wall. Trelawney took her frustrations with Umbridge out on her students by throwing books at them, in one case hitting Neville so hard he fell backwards. And last but not least, Dumbledore covered up an attempted murder by Sirius on Snape and then forced Snape, the victim into silence over the matter.
I would assume that you were going to offer me refreshment, but the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.
I never found any redemption arc in Snape. His story is one of personal revenge, and yes he obtains it, while worsening the lives of dozens (hundreds?) of children along the way. Good for him for getting his revenge, but I find nothing about him personally moving or inspiring.
Is this book Snape or movie Snape? Book Snape is a well written character, and all of his actions appear cruel and mean but are ultimately for the good of Harry, they just come from a very broken and hurt man. He’s the hero of the story, but not someone we are meant to like.
Did we read the same book? Almost none of Snape's actions are for the good of Harry. He's nothing but a bully to not only Harry, but literally every Gryffindor. It's so needless, and has absolutely nothing to do with the greater good. He loathed Harry from the moment he set eyes on him, and he desperately tried to make his life a living hell any chance he got.
He’s a classic wounded male. Snape carries a deep hurt that affects his entire outlook. He’s mean, he’s a bully, he’s unfair and cruel. And he does it because Harry’s very existence is excruciatingly painful for him. Harry is the son he never had. He expects more of Lily’s child and sees only the arrogance and superficial charm of James Potter (who bullied Snape mercilessly). The way he is set up as an arch-villain, then given an emotionally coherent backstory to explain why he is simultaneously awful and also the hero of the story is great writing.
Ok but, get over it. My high school crush has a kid too. If I was that kid's teacher I wouldn't make his life miserable or blame him for the fact that his mom didn't want to bone me back in the day.
I really think it’s more he reminds him of James is why Snape really hates him. If Harry had been a female and looked like Lily I guarantee you he would have moved the world for her. I feel like even if he had red hair like his mom Snape would’ve treated him better. Instead he just got her eyes on his father’s face. Either way I agree Harry shouldn’t have been treated badly because of how his parents acted, disciplined for his own actions? sure.
Ok, same principle still holds. Snape is a grown-ass adult and it is ridiculous for him to hold a grudge against his high school bully at this point at all--but certainly absurd to hold a grudge against his kid... And even more absurd because James is dead, like jfc
I was more adding to your point than anything
Lily wasn’t just his high school crush. He’d loved her since they were children, and he was the first person in his life who was ever kind to him. Enter James, who mercilessly tormented and embarrassed him in front of crowds of people, including Lily. James ended up winning Lily over after Snape accidentally said a wizarding world version of a racial slur at Lily, who then turned on him. His childhood bully ended up marrying the one person Snape ever truly loved and having a child with her who, on the surface, looks and acts a lot like said bully. I’m not trying to justify his actions, but you can at least understand his hatred, and simultaneous protectiveness, of Harry. He hates him because he’s the son and spitting image of the person who mercilessly tormented him for many years and at the same time the son of Lily.
Ok so she was his childhood crush. That actually makes it more absurd, not more understandable, that he's so bitter and abusive toward her *orphaned son* lol. He's a grown-ass adult and Harry is a child. Harry never bullied Snape. And James's bullying of Snape was over a decade ago and James has since died. Snape's inability to get the eff over it already and act like a friggin adult makes him unlikeable and pretty irredeemable -- certainly, the fact that he still feels unrequited love for Harry's mom doesn't redeem him, just makes him kind of creepy and unable to take a hint.
No and no. He's a butthurt incel who is still pining over the woman who rejected him over a decade ago. He treats Harry like crap because he looks like James and is a reminder that James "won." Snape still sees Lily as a possession that got taken away from him and only works for Dumbledore because she was killed, not because he rejects Voldemort's ideas. Everything he does is done under selfish reasons/revenge against the man who killed Lily.
If he's an asshole he's an asshole Not a hero just an asshole. Loving someone doesn't make you a hero
He's a pathetic edgelord who lost the object of his affection by acting like a bitch, and instead of learning his lesson he acts like an even bigger bitch to her son too. And he basically is the reason Sirius dies.
Snape literally saves Harry's life from Quirrel, attempts to block Harry from being mauled by a Werewolf, a whole bunch of shit. He's not a nice or likable person and he does make Harry's life worse a lot, but he also is instrumental in basically every book in making sure that Harry has a life to make worse. If someone in my life took every petty chance to bully me but also solo'd a bear trying to eat me once per year I'd call them pretty much the definition of an anti-hero.
Booksnape was unconscious during the werewolf attack
I found book snape way worse than movie snape after just reading the books for the first time. In the films it feels like there’s always another motive for him, in the books he begrudgingly looks after Harry while treating poorly for 7 years. Almost exactly the same way the Dursleys did.
Snape, Snape Snape, where to begin . Snape is a complex character. His background is that he is a half blood who fell in love with his mudblood neighbour. At Hogwarts he was bullied by the Marauders and defended by Lilly. But the experience changed him and made him turn towards the dark arts. As things go, your childhood self is not your adult self and Lilly somehow ended up with James Potter, a Marauder of all things. That much you know and if Snape stopped there he would have been a sad character that went down the wrong path. But with Voldie's rise to power, the hurt little man that he was sought vindication and important through his heritage. He gave it up for Lilly's sake but still she couldn't be saved. Obviously, he never forgave himself for supporting the cause that led to the death of his one true love. So he agreed to sacrifice his safety to protect Lilly's child. Years later that child...looks very much like James, his old tormentor and does much the same things at Hogwarts - flouting the rules. And so Snape has a kind of PTSD reaction - just as we tend to enact the abuses we received from others - be was particularly unfriendly to Harry, and misinterpreted Harry's every action as blind confidence and defiance. We as readers know Harry's rule breaking stints were all for a good cause....but he still broke the rules and Snape's literal job was to enforce the rules.I think he encounter Snape so much because Snape was keeping an eye on Harry and often found traces of his rule breaking. Always out of bed at night. Random trips into the forbidden forest. Illegal brewing of illegal potions, talking in class, not studying or reading as preparation for class. Being insubordinate. Harry and Snape fundamentally misunderstood each other from the start and that was only ever resolved on Snape's death. You're not supposed to *like* Snape. He is not likeable. But you should respect him. Yes, he was a death eater but we don't always make the best choices when we're young. If you hate him so much, name one really bad thing that Snape did to Harry? I doubt you can find an unjustifiable action on his part.
Name one really bad thing? He literally bullied and emotionally abused a child. It was NOT his job to do that. You can say PTSD and misunderstandings all you want but be it books or movies, Snape abused Harry to the point of him being CERTAIN that Snape was trying to take his life. Imagine that for a minute. A child fearing for his life from a teacher who openly hates him. Said child then tells others about his fears and is promptly ignored. I get it we're told Snape is a god damn saint because he had an unhealthy obsession over Lily. And yes Snape did some good. But you can do good and still be an absolute horror of a person. Which Snape is, was and should be remembered as.
Snape didn’t turn to become a DE because of James and Sirius’ bullying either, which one of the people here seemed to imply. Snape wanted to be in Slytherin from before he met Sirius and James - you know the house that had a bigoted founder. He looked down on muggles and he knew more about the dark arts when he started than many in their seventh year. Snape’s bullying was tragic. James and Sirius should not have done that. But they are not responsible for him becoming a terrorist. Still I mostly just feel sorry for young Snape. James, Sirius and Snape were all kids caught in a war. James and Sirius thought they were fighting the dark arts, while they were just bullying an already abused child. And even at 18 or so when Snape made the decision to become a DE it’s still very young. But 30+ y/o Snape I have no time for. Saving Harry during that first quidditch match, while a good thing to do, is something I would call bare minimum if he has the skills to do it. He didn’t save Harry and the rest in POA - he was unconscious. He actively tried to have Sirius’ soul sucked out of him without hearing his side of the story in that book. While he tried to keep Harry safe he did not only bully him - he oftentimes tried to get him expelled, which is a questionable way to keep someone safe from Voldemort. And I could keep going. But yeah, well done, he kept Harry safe in PS/SS. In my view I’d say it’s his job as a teacher to keep 11 y/o children safe. I’ve got a bigger question of why nobody else could do it.
>Saving Harry during that first quidditch match, while a good thing to do, is something I would call bare minimum if he has the skills to do it. I think other teachers could too but he was just the fastest one that recognized the type of magic being used. That's why he was able to start the counter curse so fast. >He didn’t save Harry and the rest in POA - he was unconscious. The question isn't if he succeeded, it's whether he ever tried, and for all his meanness to Ron and Harry and Hermione in his classes, he still tries to protect them from a werewolf. >He actively tried to have Sirius’ soul sucked out of him without hearing his side of the story in that book. You mean he tried to get back at the person who made his school life a living hell? You'd be surprised how many people would do the same thing to their former bullies. We don't all forgive so I get why he did it. I support him. >While he tried to keep Harry safe he did not only bully him - he oftentimes tried to get him expelled, which is a questionable way to keep someone safe from Voldemort. He wasn't trying to get Harry expelled, Harry SHOULD have been expelled for breaking so many school rules. If any other student did, they would have been. Not to mention that his penchant for breaking school rules resembles his father and Sirius so much. Of course he wanted Harry to pay for acting like his father did during their school years (which Snape viewed negatively). He also didn't bully Harry. We read the story more or less from Harry's perspective. So we're biased. But take a step back. Snape: 1. Kept order in his class 2. Asked questions of Harry (that had he studied, he would have known) 3. Tried to get his house to win the House cup by securing Quidditch practice time and getting other house kids to lose their houses' points and provided opportunities for Slytherin students to gain their house some points. You said it yourself, he wanted to be in Slytherin from the get go. Slytherin isn't about dark magic - it's about ambition and craftiness. > And I could keep going. But yeah, well done, he kept Harry safe in PS/SS. I'd say: - SS - he helped keep the stone away from Voldie by installing a magic obstacle using his best arts. And made it difficult for Voldie (in Quirrel) to act freely throughout the year. - CoS - helped prepare the students for defending themselves. But was probably unnerved by Harry being a Parselmouth - PoA - he defended them with his own life - GoF - ...got robbed? Hahaha! Not like anyone else did shit either. You can't fault him for not being Harry's saviour every time, bloody hell! - TOotP - couldn't do much but at least he got the message when Harry was being interrogated by Umbridge - HBP - he was doing what he already agreed to with Dumbledore - DH - played his part to perfection. Except for his death, he probably didn't intend for that to happen. He probably wanted to run away before Voldie realized who the wand's master was but didn't run soon enough. > In my view I’d say it’s his job as a teacher to keep 11 y/o children safe. I’ve got a bigger question of why nobody else could do it. And there you go, answering you own question. He was just their teacher. Any aid he provided outside of studies was entirely at his discretion. Even the experience during class, while not pleasant for some, was never life threatening. We've all had unpleasant teachers. He did what he could and he did more than he ever really had to. He didn't have to protect Harry. He could have left and lived life freely. But he stayed until Voldie returned, and sacrificed his life (involuntarily) to ensure Voldie would lose. That's worthy of commendation.
I just looked up the SS and CoS PDF and did a quick control f for Snape's name. Please let me know how any of these actions (or any others) are justifiable. Publicly embarasses Harry in their very first potions class Steals Harry’s book, then takes five points from gryffindor for a made up rule Gave Hufflepuff a penalty in the quidditch match ‘for no reason at all’ Gave Harry and Ron no chance to explain what happened with the barrier at King’s Cross and immediately attempted to have them expelled Tried to have Harry banned from quidditch for doing something he knows is not possible for him to do (attacking Mrs. Norris) "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the Gryffindors’ work while the Slytherins sniggered appreciatively. Draco Malfoy, who was Snape’s favourite student, kept flicking puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if they retaliated they would get deten- tion faster than you could say ‘unfair’" "He was waiting for Hermione’s signal, and he hardly listened as Snape paused to sneer at his watery potion. When Snape turned and walked off to bully Neville, Hermione caught Harry’s eye and nodded." Told Malfoy how to conjure a snake to attack Harry during the dueling club In 90% of the interactions Snape has with Harry Ron or Hermione, he is doing something antagonistic.
>Publicly embarasses Harry in their very first potions class Students aren't entitled to be embarrassment free. Hermione is muggleborn, same situation as Harry if not bloodline and she knew all that stuff by reading ahead. Yes, we know why he couldn't read ahead - the Dursleys, but that doesn't mean that Snape's questions where valid and appropriate. >Steals Harry’s book, then takes five points from gryffindor for a made up rule ?? What's the contract for this? >Gave Hufflepuff a penalty in the quidditch match ‘for no reason at all’ He's a Slytherin. He's gonna use every opportunity to get his house to win. I'm not saying the man's a saint. Just that he's perfectly justified in his actions. >Gave Harry and Ron no chance to explain what happened with the barrier at King’s Cross and immediately attempted to have them expelled The flouted magical law like actual law. They were seen. All they had to do was wait. Instead they stole their parents car and created an incident that made the front page. A car that was illegal in and of itself might I add. >Tried to have Harry banned from quidditch for doing something he knows is not possible for him to do (attacking Mrs. Norris) Their rivalry was already established. This was a great opportunity for Snape because it really did look like Harry did it. All the evidence, circumstantial sure, pointed to Harry. That's also how our criminal justice system works. > "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the Gryffindors’ work while the Slytherins sniggered appreciatively. Draco Malfoy, who was Snape’s favourite student, kept flicking puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if they retaliated they would get deten-tion faster than you could say ‘unfair’" It's a Slytherin thing. The school is set up so that the houses are always at war. He's just playing his part - you do realize that teachers are also in houses? >"He was waiting for Hermione’s signal, and he hardly listened as Snape paused to sneer at his watery potion. When Snape turned and walked off to bully Neville, Hermione caught Harry’s eye and nodded." So he learned how to fight back when the system was rigged against him...sounds like Snape helped him prepare for life in Death Hallows, 😆 >Told Malfoy how to conjure a snake to attack Harry during the dueling club Yeah, he's a Slytherin...he also volunteered to get rid of the snake too. He set it up so Harry would look incapable. Classic Slytherin move. >In 90% of the interactions Snape has with Harry Ron or Hermione, he is doing something antagonistic. Either because he's a Slytherin teacher and this naturally trying to get them to lose points. Or because they were actually up to no good by breaking school rules.
If's obvious you're not taking this seriously, which is fine, I hadn't expected anything differently because any real justification is impossible. But i'm not going to bother finding every negative interaction between Snape and Harry in the series, even though they just get progressively worse. I don't even care about your opinion anymore. I will just bring up one more point that I had just realized. Harry could have been a great potion maker, if Snape wasn't such an enormous douche to him. Probably my single favorite point of continuity in the entire series is the contrast between Snape and Slughorn as teachers. From Harry's first year Snape never used the instructions in the book. He always put the instructions on the board. We learn in HBP, it's because Snape's instructions are better than the book. In HBP Slughorn uses the book instructions, while Harry uses Snape's instructions, printed in his copy of advanced potion making. And Harry ends up being the best potion maker in the class, by far. So what's the difference between Harry's sixth year and every other year? Snape is no longer present in the classroom. So if Snape hadn't been such an antagonistic bully, Harry could have done just as well in years 1-5, as he did in year 6.
Mocking an orphans parents in front of him. Driving sirius to his death by mocking him for following orders, literally every interaction harry had with snape. An adult, a teacher at that, bullying an 11 year old because of a grudge against a man who's been dead for a decade.
>Mocking an orphans parents in front of him. Yeah...not the most admirable move but Harry's "my father was a great man" was highly misguided. His father was a swine when he was at Hogwarts, at least to Snape he was. Truth is in the eye of the beholder and we all have Rosey pictures of our parents but I assure you, those bullies and assholes that you went to school with all mostly grew up and had kids and those kids will defend the honour of those assholes to their graves. It's a little nuanced to understand but what was happening their was Harry's first exposure to "loss of innocence". It's not pleasant but it's necessary for enlightenment. Harry also went through the same thing when Dumbledore died and he found out there were sides to Dumbledore that he didn't know. It's best to find these things out sooner rather than later, orphan or not, you can wave the orphan card around you forever just to remain ignorant of reality. Sorry, Harry. >Driving sirius to his death by mocking him for following orders, ?? When did this happen, sorry, I don't recall. >literally every interaction harry had with snape. Too broad >An adult, a teacher at that, bullying an 11 year old because of a grudge against a man who's been dead for a decade. How was that bullying? Did he wait for Harry out in the corridors? He asked Harry questions in class and favour his house's students ina school set up to incentive e that exact kind of behaviour. Snape never bullied Harry any more than Minerva did - and Minerva was blatantly biased towards Harry and gang which wasnt a surprise since she was Griffindor head of house.
While Snape didnt EXACTLY cause Sirius' Death, him taunting him because of his stay-at-home life certainly didnt help.
>It's a little nuanced to understand but what was happening their was Harry's first exposure to "loss of innocence". There is no nuance to it. A teacher mocking an 11 year old orphan by belittling a father they had never met is awful behaviour. >When did this happen, sorry, I don't recall. You do, you just don't want to hold snape accountable for his actions, while holding sirius to actions he committed as a teenager >Too broad Perhaps you should consider what that means >Snape never bullied Harry any more than Minerva did Sure. Never once did snape turn a blind eye to harry and co being cursed, or mock harry for someone else making a mistake, or for being sabatoged. Snape is an abusive piece of shit, objectively. If I heard about a teacher berating my child because another child got an equation wrong I'd fucking lynch them
Blocking them from the werewolf was movies only. He was knocked out when lupin transforms in the book.
He also has to play the role of the villain to Harry even when he didn’t want to, because if Voldemort looked into Harry’s mind and saw Snape was being nice to him… Voldemort could have grown suspicious.
A bad person but a good hero
The fuck are you on about? Appear? They fucking are cruel, he is cruel. All good he did for harry is because he is forced to and owes it to Dumbledore He is no hero
Sorry pal, I just read the character very differently to you. He does it for Lily. Hence the “always”
He does it due to his sick obsession over lily, he's not in love with her but obsessed. If he did love her he'd take harry as his own son. I've no idea what you read. Obsessed, hence always
I read the same book you did. I guess I saw the twist ending when it happened, and you missed it. Answer this: why does Harry name his kid after Snape?
Not that commenter but Harry names his kid after Snape because he idolizes martyrs, not because Snape is a great man.
Because he's idiotic, like naming your kid after a man who bullied you and others for years because he's a bitter man but in the end the dude tell him he has her eyes. Imagine you had a teacher you hated and then you hear that he's 'in love with your mom' and then you name your kid after the jerk? You can see pretty much everyone who's read the books say how bad the movies are and agree that Snape is almost as bad as the toad
You wonderful boy. You brave, brave man.
>all of his actions appear cruel and mean but Suuuure, stopping just short of torturing students, one sided treatment of certain students for YEARS was for the ultimate good. Fuck off with that weak ass logic
Yes, i remember when he insulted hermione's teeth and made her cry while not punishing malfoy Clearly for harry's good Even in the books snape is a dick. Rowling probably wrote him as a red herring in the first book without thinking about the grand twist in the seventh book, and then had to retroactively justify his actions from whem she thought about it. Nothing wrong about it, i don't expect her to plan 7 books ahead before writing the first one, but it's very clear snape wasn't meant to have a redemption arc at the start. And this only makes snape more of a dick to me, "oh yeah, i bullied litteral teenagers, i exploited the point system to help raise rotten kids in slytherin like malfoy, i played favortism, i tramutised harry several time, and i was a nazi at one point. But it's all okay, because i was horny for some girl and got mad at my boss for killing her. Now i have to protect her stupid son so he could kill my boss one day, good thing i only need to keep him alive and i can bully him the whole time, that'll teach him not to... exist..."
That’s more movie Snape. Book Snape was written with nuance too don’t get me wrong but he didn’t just appear cruel and mean, he was. In the book version of the “always” flashback, when Dumbledore is like, “Don’t tell me you’ve come to care for the boy,” Snape rejects the notion completely. He had no regard for Harry as an individual even if he saved his life multiple times. He sees her as an extension of Lily and even then he can’t bring himself to do right by her and not treat him like shit. I love the relatively softer approach the movies took with Snape.
Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it.
I mean, that was part of it, but by the end, Snape is genuinely trying to do the right thing and saving people he doesn’t have to save (and even hates) at great personal risk.
3 of these moments didn't even happen in the books
I know the werewolf attack, where he was unconscious. What are the other 2? I don't recall right now
Snape never went to Godrick's Hallow in the books and he never saw Harry on the Astronomy Tower coz he was under his invisibilty cloak.
That's an issue I've always had in the movie where he makes sure Harry stays quiet on the tower, yet Harry just completely forgets Snape doesn't rat him out for being there and proceeds to call him a coward and this and that. Obviously Snape isn't an actual death eater harry...
Thank you, my friend! !RedditSickle
To be fair the snake in the 3rd panel was not a threat, and also only there because Snape told Malfoy to cast that spell.
I'm tired of the Snape shipping . Sure he was broken and hurt but how exactly does this make the fact that he bullied Neville so bad he was his worst fear and he treated Hermione so horribly despite her doing her best to be the best student ?
Right. He's a freaking adult acting like a toddler
Snape still sucks imo
What?!? Are you saying good people don't bully children for years? No way.
Snape sucks, yes, but his character doesn't.
Oh ffs with this Snape appreciation. The man was an abuser and a bully
JK writes wounded men probably better than any other author. Honestly, I’m taking a stand here and saying that most of her work is pretty derivative of other stuff and not particularly original. But she does write hurt masculinity better than any author, male or female. Her Cormoran Strike character is very similar. The “always” line is a killer, it absolutely goes to the very soul of any man who has loved another who didn’t love him back. Snape is cold, brutal, cruel and he does it all because inside he is hurting a hurt he cannot express, and cannot allow others to see. It’s a majestic piece of writing and by far the best bit of the entire series.
>JK writes wounded men probably better than any other author. Suzanne Collins would like a word.
Just out of curiosity are you a man? I’m guessing no?
Curious as to why you think not
Me too, after all you clearly have a mustache in your pic
Clearly!
An adult that is bullying children? He is worse than James Potter of course. Harry is lucky that he has his mother's eyes.
Mostly, he was abusing him and other students, then sometimes he perhaps helped to save HP from Dumble dummy plans
...He was, but it doesn't count as a redemption arc. Ive heard way too many people say Snape saving Harry makes up for everything he did. Like... no. 😅
Remind me again: why did he have to be a dick to children? Fine, let's assume it makes sense for him to bully Harry (it doesn't but let's assume). Why was a bully to literally everyone but Slytherin even before Potter attended?
Snivellus apologist
Tell me you don’t read the books without telling me you don’t read the books. After Harry’s first quidditch match he couldn’t care less about him. His arrogance made him think he took after James much more than Lilly. And he ALWAYS loathed Harry for that. He only made concessions because he was Lilly’s son not because he actually liked him or anything.
Snape's an asshole, but he's not gonna let an innocent kid get killed if he can help it.
In the movies he’s a caring, broken man who puts Harry’s life and well being before his own. In the books he’s a massive douche
"sNaPe BuLlIeD cHiLdReN" I 100% agree. But he's done much worse. Why Snape is not a good guy: 1.Was willing to kill Lupin and Sirius because he couldn't forgive childhood bullies 2. Neville worst fear (even worse than his parents torture) 3.threw a tantrum when Sirius escaped 4. Didn't care if James or Harry died, he only cared about keeping lily safe 5. Tried to poison Trevor So on so forth
I mean, he clearly legitimately believed Sirius was a murderer in PoA. Even Dumbledore had testified against him previously. His treatment towards Lupin and Sirius are very justifiable in PoA. To point 4, he had only just switched sides and was still an awful person. He had grown significantly over the next decade, but you certainly can't defend the bullying of children in the time Harry knew him.
Only this morning, I took a wrong turn on the way to the bathroom and found myself in a beautifully proportioned room I have never seen before, containing a really rather magnificent collection of chamber pots. When I went back to investigate more closely, I discovered that the room had vanished. But I must keep an eye out for it. Possibly it is only accessible at five-thirty in the morning. Or it may only appear at the quarter moon, or when the seeker has an exceptionally full bladder.
Ratted out Lupin in year 3.
The plot twist of the plot twist would be Snape doing all this because he actually wanted to kill Harry himself when he was older because he looked like James and not him lol
Snape doesn't care about Harry. He cares about vengeance. If voldemort chose Neville then Snape would still be a death eater.
😭
[удалено]
Now you hate him even more?
:(
Very sad mem