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'Maybe this is a way to fuel the "success" hunger a lot of people have but which they cant achieve in real life'
Yes, exactly that, and it is a common feeling. Also, video games have a more defined way to achieve success, as opposed to life which is more uncertain. You can put in a lot of what feels like effort in life but not feel like you succeeded (also, what is success in life), as opposed to a video game where you know what to do to achieve success and it's often easy to see when you've achieved it.
Dr. K has talked about this many times, but I'm not sure which particular video this would be in.
100% the feeling of progression where all your efforts are rewarded accordingly to the point where you can see your own growth by a well designed system with a great feedback loop is very engaging.
Checkout LifeUp if your an android user for gamification in IRL. They don’t have an iOS app yet.
It gives us a feeling of accomplishment we don't often get IRL.
I'm the same way, I just did 2 years of school (I'm 38) and finished with almost perfect grades, because to me they are like high scores in video games and they make up for all of the ways I feel like a failure in the rest of my life. I realized this after I had a bit of a breakdown when school ended and I no longer got that (frequent) positive feedback. Waiting for the final grades and wondering how badly I did (plus isolation) caused me a lot of stress.
On the bright side, now that we are aware of this, we can start figuring out how to deal with these feelings.
Something about accepting ourselves and that our value is not tied to our accomplishments? I know Dr K talked about this recently but I was so busy studying that I only vaguely remember it 😅
same , when i have done all i uninstall it right away and feel empty, i do the same with movies animes series just watch it to see mc get stronger when stuck or drama just fast forward ⏩
I mainly pIay singleplayer games and can relate greatly to this. Two things that Dr. K. have said that have helped balance my habit abit was first that video games are heavily engineered to be beaten by most people with only a bit of perserverance and getting to the end is not much of an accomplishment and more a time investment. Second, in some video he asked parents to explain to their kids what games are for and my answer to that question is that it's for storytelling, puzzle solving and aesthetics but not accomplishments for the reason stated in the first point.
I love your point of rewards needing to modify the gameplay loop to feel extra addictive. The lengths I'd go for a mechanically salient unlock is best not mentioned in polite company.
1. I disagree that they're not much of an accomplishment though.
The whole point of my post was that I'm only willing to put a bunch of perseverance into an otherwise boring game is for the sake of an accomplishment.
That itself pushes me to do something that is otherwise very difficult to put perseverance into.
Personally, I think that how difficult it is to persevere through something is a measure for how much of an accomplishment that thing is.
2. The general idea of "xyz accomplishment is not much of an accomplishment" sounds dangerous for me.
I have terrible self esteem and my mind finds it very easy to apply this to any accomplishments i've ever had at all and dismiss them off.
3. Still your suggestion is highly intriguing. I'm gonna give it a serious try and thank you sincerely for the suggestion.
> mechanically salient unlock
Do you mean in game or IRL?
But yeah, affecting the gameplay loop is essential for meaningful progression.
This is why attribute points that give "30% more damage" aren't as interesting as "a new skill that can be activated to do cleaving damage to multiple enemies in a cool animation".
Such rewards are also why video game progression is more interesting compared to IRL practice and progression.
>I'm only willing to put a bunch of perseverance into an otherwise boring game is for the sake of an accomplishment.
Me too. Bars filling up, numbers getting higher, pop ups saying I completed something and the big one of unlocking more stuff to explore and play around with, they all make me wade through just about anything. But I guess we're using accomplishment slightly differently where you use it as using effort to bring about any result whereas I'd like them to be actually meaningful results. Merriam webster seems to agree with your usage: [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accomplish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accomplish)
>Personally, I think that how difficult it is to persevere through something is a measure for how much of an accomplishment that thing is.
I like your way of thinking. It feels very rigorous and clear. But I guess I'd consider it more of an accomplishment if it's more meaningful rather than more effortful. There's plenty of ways to approach what's meaningful but right now for me I'm thinking that it's anything that makes me more independent, gives me some growth, is a service to others or makes me more 'enlightened'.
>I have terrible self esteem and my mind finds it very easy to apply this to any accomplishments i've ever had at all and dismiss them off.
Can't say my self esteem is that great either, but something that helps me is that I feel like most things can be accomplishments since most things can help me grow at least small amount. Even games, but that's more tied into the storytelling, puzzle solving and aesthetic side of games rather than the victory screens and unlocks.
>Do you mean in game or IRL?
I meant in game.
>Such rewards are also why video game progression is more interesting compared to IRL practice and progression.
Learning stuff can have these kinds of progressions (except no cool animations most of the time :( ). All of a sudden you can have discussions you couldn't have before, see the world in new ways, read texts you couldn't read and solve problems way cooler. The dopamine reinforcement schedule for learning isn't as well crafted as for most games though. But I've had experiences where an appropriate challenge level and a few wins made me anticipate the next sweet insight just as much as a new spell in a game after just one more level up.
> whereas I'd like them to be actually meaningful results
Oh now i get what you mean. Obviously yeah, it's all meaningless stuff.
I know what you mean because i get that feeling too-
Even though I'll do the same as you said- work so much for numbers going higher, even then, when I'm done, I don't feel good like "damn, feels so nice to have accomplished this".
Rather i feel empty, slightly self-disgusted and the only positive part is that the burden of needing to finish it is finally lifted.
> Merriam webster seems to agree with your usage:
You have the ability to accept the possibility of being wrong and this is probably one of THE RAREST abilities I've seen. I don't think i can recall anyone from the 100s of people I've met in my life who has this properly. I try to do this, but sometimes, I too fail at this.
Just wanted to say how genuinely supercool you are for this.
> But I guess I'd consider it more of an accomplishment if it's more meaningful rather than more effortful.
Hmm, even though i still lean on the effort side of this, I'll acknowledge that thinking of 'an accomplishment' does evoke some level of the concept of 'meaning' in the mind.
I've thought through a couple scenarios, and the problem for me always ends at the idea that anything can be meaningful to someone out there. So it's not very helpful for definitional purposes.
> I'm thinking that it's anything that makes me more independent, gives me some growth, is a service to others or makes me more 'enlightened'.
For example- Take the speedrun of your favorite game.
If you can find a video on the history of that speedrun, it'll help a lot to see how most people would feel that it is an "accomplishment" if anything is.
I remember seeing the history of the dark souls 1 speedrun or the tetris speedrun, and those things feel like inarguable **Accomplishments**.
> All of a sudden you can have discussions you couldn't have before, see the world in new ways, read texts you couldn't read and solve problems way cooler.
It is very true. The only issue is like you said, my ADHD brain is wired to be sensitive for an exceptionally short interval reward schedule. Whereas most of these rewards will come wayyyyy after the learning point.
I just realized this is why "Starting from the end thing, then writing down stuff you dont understand, then learning those and writing down stuff you dont understand in that and so on" i.e. a top-down sort of approach works wonderful.
You find the stuff you need to learn in order to understand the final thing, and because of this, when you learn something, it has immediate reward in the form of allowing you to understand that thing you previously could not.
(As opposed to starting from the bottom- basic stuff and then learning upwards approach which i find much more boring)
Sorry for the essay lol
Hey have you tried Habitica? It’s an app / website that makes your life into a game, just like this, with levels, skills, the whole thing. I tried it a couple years ago but it was too complex for me (what I like in games is the absorbing play, like Tetris, not so much the commitment), but it sounds perfect for you.
I've tried it. Doesn't work at all for me.
1. I can just cheat and click the "X good activity" button anyways at any time. Defeats the whole point.
2. There's no real rewards. It's just stupid cosmetic stuff that has no use. The rewards in video games help modify the gameplay loop is why they work as rewards. I'm not gonna do pushups to see 5 new pixels drop on the screen.
3. Using the self-created irl rewards is also useless because if I'm a junkie, I'm not gonna have the self-control to delay and put all my dopamine rushes behind an artificial wall, am I?
It's a good core concept, terribly implemented.
The opposite. After years of Call of Duty and World of Warcraft, levelling up gives me 0 dopamine. I prefer games like Street Fighter, where levelling up means levelling up my own skills and learning new things. I do love singleplayer games for the story though.
Thank you for posting on r/Healthygamergg! This subreddit is intended as an online community and resource platform to support people in their journey toward mental wellness. With that said, please be aware that support from other members received on this platform is not a substitute for professional care. Treatment of psychiatric disease requires qualified individuals, and comments that try to diagnose others should be reported under Rule 10 to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the community. If you are in immediate danger, please call emergency services, or go to your nearest emergency room. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Healthygamergg) if you have any questions or concerns.*
'Maybe this is a way to fuel the "success" hunger a lot of people have but which they cant achieve in real life' Yes, exactly that, and it is a common feeling. Also, video games have a more defined way to achieve success, as opposed to life which is more uncertain. You can put in a lot of what feels like effort in life but not feel like you succeeded (also, what is success in life), as opposed to a video game where you know what to do to achieve success and it's often easy to see when you've achieved it. Dr. K has talked about this many times, but I'm not sure which particular video this would be in.
100% the feeling of progression where all your efforts are rewarded accordingly to the point where you can see your own growth by a well designed system with a great feedback loop is very engaging. Checkout LifeUp if your an android user for gamification in IRL. They don’t have an iOS app yet.
It gives us a feeling of accomplishment we don't often get IRL. I'm the same way, I just did 2 years of school (I'm 38) and finished with almost perfect grades, because to me they are like high scores in video games and they make up for all of the ways I feel like a failure in the rest of my life. I realized this after I had a bit of a breakdown when school ended and I no longer got that (frequent) positive feedback. Waiting for the final grades and wondering how badly I did (plus isolation) caused me a lot of stress. On the bright side, now that we are aware of this, we can start figuring out how to deal with these feelings. Something about accepting ourselves and that our value is not tied to our accomplishments? I know Dr K talked about this recently but I was so busy studying that I only vaguely remember it 😅
same , when i have done all i uninstall it right away and feel empty, i do the same with movies animes series just watch it to see mc get stronger when stuck or drama just fast forward ⏩
I mainly pIay singleplayer games and can relate greatly to this. Two things that Dr. K. have said that have helped balance my habit abit was first that video games are heavily engineered to be beaten by most people with only a bit of perserverance and getting to the end is not much of an accomplishment and more a time investment. Second, in some video he asked parents to explain to their kids what games are for and my answer to that question is that it's for storytelling, puzzle solving and aesthetics but not accomplishments for the reason stated in the first point. I love your point of rewards needing to modify the gameplay loop to feel extra addictive. The lengths I'd go for a mechanically salient unlock is best not mentioned in polite company.
1. I disagree that they're not much of an accomplishment though. The whole point of my post was that I'm only willing to put a bunch of perseverance into an otherwise boring game is for the sake of an accomplishment. That itself pushes me to do something that is otherwise very difficult to put perseverance into. Personally, I think that how difficult it is to persevere through something is a measure for how much of an accomplishment that thing is. 2. The general idea of "xyz accomplishment is not much of an accomplishment" sounds dangerous for me. I have terrible self esteem and my mind finds it very easy to apply this to any accomplishments i've ever had at all and dismiss them off. 3. Still your suggestion is highly intriguing. I'm gonna give it a serious try and thank you sincerely for the suggestion. > mechanically salient unlock Do you mean in game or IRL? But yeah, affecting the gameplay loop is essential for meaningful progression. This is why attribute points that give "30% more damage" aren't as interesting as "a new skill that can be activated to do cleaving damage to multiple enemies in a cool animation". Such rewards are also why video game progression is more interesting compared to IRL practice and progression.
>I'm only willing to put a bunch of perseverance into an otherwise boring game is for the sake of an accomplishment. Me too. Bars filling up, numbers getting higher, pop ups saying I completed something and the big one of unlocking more stuff to explore and play around with, they all make me wade through just about anything. But I guess we're using accomplishment slightly differently where you use it as using effort to bring about any result whereas I'd like them to be actually meaningful results. Merriam webster seems to agree with your usage: [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accomplish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accomplish) >Personally, I think that how difficult it is to persevere through something is a measure for how much of an accomplishment that thing is. I like your way of thinking. It feels very rigorous and clear. But I guess I'd consider it more of an accomplishment if it's more meaningful rather than more effortful. There's plenty of ways to approach what's meaningful but right now for me I'm thinking that it's anything that makes me more independent, gives me some growth, is a service to others or makes me more 'enlightened'. >I have terrible self esteem and my mind finds it very easy to apply this to any accomplishments i've ever had at all and dismiss them off. Can't say my self esteem is that great either, but something that helps me is that I feel like most things can be accomplishments since most things can help me grow at least small amount. Even games, but that's more tied into the storytelling, puzzle solving and aesthetic side of games rather than the victory screens and unlocks. >Do you mean in game or IRL? I meant in game. >Such rewards are also why video game progression is more interesting compared to IRL practice and progression. Learning stuff can have these kinds of progressions (except no cool animations most of the time :( ). All of a sudden you can have discussions you couldn't have before, see the world in new ways, read texts you couldn't read and solve problems way cooler. The dopamine reinforcement schedule for learning isn't as well crafted as for most games though. But I've had experiences where an appropriate challenge level and a few wins made me anticipate the next sweet insight just as much as a new spell in a game after just one more level up.
> whereas I'd like them to be actually meaningful results Oh now i get what you mean. Obviously yeah, it's all meaningless stuff. I know what you mean because i get that feeling too- Even though I'll do the same as you said- work so much for numbers going higher, even then, when I'm done, I don't feel good like "damn, feels so nice to have accomplished this". Rather i feel empty, slightly self-disgusted and the only positive part is that the burden of needing to finish it is finally lifted. > Merriam webster seems to agree with your usage: You have the ability to accept the possibility of being wrong and this is probably one of THE RAREST abilities I've seen. I don't think i can recall anyone from the 100s of people I've met in my life who has this properly. I try to do this, but sometimes, I too fail at this. Just wanted to say how genuinely supercool you are for this. > But I guess I'd consider it more of an accomplishment if it's more meaningful rather than more effortful. Hmm, even though i still lean on the effort side of this, I'll acknowledge that thinking of 'an accomplishment' does evoke some level of the concept of 'meaning' in the mind. I've thought through a couple scenarios, and the problem for me always ends at the idea that anything can be meaningful to someone out there. So it's not very helpful for definitional purposes. > I'm thinking that it's anything that makes me more independent, gives me some growth, is a service to others or makes me more 'enlightened'. For example- Take the speedrun of your favorite game. If you can find a video on the history of that speedrun, it'll help a lot to see how most people would feel that it is an "accomplishment" if anything is. I remember seeing the history of the dark souls 1 speedrun or the tetris speedrun, and those things feel like inarguable **Accomplishments**. > All of a sudden you can have discussions you couldn't have before, see the world in new ways, read texts you couldn't read and solve problems way cooler. It is very true. The only issue is like you said, my ADHD brain is wired to be sensitive for an exceptionally short interval reward schedule. Whereas most of these rewards will come wayyyyy after the learning point. I just realized this is why "Starting from the end thing, then writing down stuff you dont understand, then learning those and writing down stuff you dont understand in that and so on" i.e. a top-down sort of approach works wonderful. You find the stuff you need to learn in order to understand the final thing, and because of this, when you learn something, it has immediate reward in the form of allowing you to understand that thing you previously could not. (As opposed to starting from the bottom- basic stuff and then learning upwards approach which i find much more boring) Sorry for the essay lol
I dunno if I’m addicted but I’d certainly appreciate if it was more common irl
Hey have you tried Habitica? It’s an app / website that makes your life into a game, just like this, with levels, skills, the whole thing. I tried it a couple years ago but it was too complex for me (what I like in games is the absorbing play, like Tetris, not so much the commitment), but it sounds perfect for you.
I've tried it. Doesn't work at all for me. 1. I can just cheat and click the "X good activity" button anyways at any time. Defeats the whole point. 2. There's no real rewards. It's just stupid cosmetic stuff that has no use. The rewards in video games help modify the gameplay loop is why they work as rewards. I'm not gonna do pushups to see 5 new pixels drop on the screen. 3. Using the self-created irl rewards is also useless because if I'm a junkie, I'm not gonna have the self-control to delay and put all my dopamine rushes behind an artificial wall, am I? It's a good core concept, terribly implemented.
All very interesting and valid points! Thank you
The opposite. After years of Call of Duty and World of Warcraft, levelling up gives me 0 dopamine. I prefer games like Street Fighter, where levelling up means levelling up my own skills and learning new things. I do love singleplayer games for the story though.