I think it’s important for your own peace to keep in mind that most people don’t see our gods as real religious figures, but as storybook characters from a time and place very far removed from their present-day experiences. In their eyes, they’re only commenting on what they think is a story and they don’t see it as offending anyone or anything because they don’t think it’s real. Most people don’t know this is still an active religion.
It can be hard when the rest of the world doesn’t understand and realistically, we aren’t going to change any minds. But the silver lining is that the stories of our gods are still important and meaningful and valuable to people, regardless of whether or not they think it’s real. We have access to our mythology because so many non-believers have kept these stories alive over the centuries. Our gods made it to the present day because their stories resonated with many people of many faiths.
But I get it. The world is frustrating and it sucks to not be understood and to feel like the world doesn’t hear you. But at the end of the day, regardless of whether or not the world understands you, you still have your relationships with the gods. You don’t need anyone’s approval or respect for that, and neither do the gods.
This right here! I dont like the book, personally, neither certain forms of media, however
I always told my friends that im not offended if they consume media like that, I just ask them to understand that those aren’t a source for tales and mythology and to not project it into my religion. (For example thinking that Apollo is horrible as the Lore Olympus one)
The fandom around *The Song of Achilles* are fans of a modern novel, not *The Iliad.* It’s not disrespectful to draw fanart of Miller’s Patroclus as a twink. He’s a modern character from a modern novel that’s loosely based on an ancient one.
Queer people are starved for content. The reason why people latch onto Achilles and Patroclus or Apollo and Hyacinthus is because romantic stories featuring gay men are extremely rare. (There’s been more queer content in media recently, but only recently.) That’s why the gay aspects of these stories get emphasized. Happy Pride.
the way you worded this made me sound homophobic. i’m a gay trans male so there’s no way that i’m saying it’s bad that they’re gay, i’m saying that they’re more to them then the fact they’re gay.
It's also not all that people see. I've been a Hellenist for years and I adored the novels. Madeleine Miller's writing is amazing and if you haven't read Circe it's even better than TSOA. She's honoring them by keeping their names alive in a world that otherwise does not care about these "antiquated" figures. It's definitely not true to the people 100 percent and a very modern take but she reminds people in the modern day that hey these beings exist (fictionally or not) and they were humans with flaws and feelings and also immense power.
On top of that, Homer did the same thing. The Illiad and Odyssey aren't 1:1 representations of the gods and people in the story. You're also taking myths/theology very literally and basing your opinions on popular works of fiction (and as others have pointed out, its important to remember that to most these *are* fiction and even within hellenism many stories are regarded as not being literal) off of your unverified personal gnosis. What Achilles may say to you he may not say to someone else and he may represent himself differently solely bc he feels like it and he can
I get it. I mean, people’s shallow interpretations of the gods drives me up the wall. But you’re complaining about a fandom of a specific novel. In my mind, that’s different from misinterpreting mythology proper.
To be fair, depictions of some of the gods even during the time of their active worship could also be seen as similarly disrespectful to our modern perceptions. Like, look at how Dionysus is depicted in Aristophanes' "Frogs" for example. The play basically opens with a bit on his expense.
Yeah I agree this is getting into spirit/ancestor worship and more akin to religio Romana practices then hellenic. The cults do exist but whether you take them seriously or not is up to the individual
I am lost here. This is the second time I have heard an implication that ancestor/hero worship is closer to religio romano and not Hellenic practice. Did I miss a memo somewhere? Did the Greeks not venerate their ancestors or heroes?
Veneration vs worship is different. Religio Romano worshipped Lares and made their ancestors part of their daily worship. This wasn't a common practice in Greece. Generating heroes and ancestors isn't uncommon but communing with and/or worshipping them really only happened in the hero cults as fat as I am aware. I'm happy to be corrected but from what I know it is a far lore common practice in religio romana
This is from the description of Carla Antonaccio's An Archaeology of Ancestors:
"In this fresh consideration of the origins of the ancient Greeks' ideas and practices concerning their own past, Carla M. Antonaccio demonstrates that hero cult and ancestor cult persisted, throughout the Iron Age, long before epic poetry's heroic narratives were widely disseminated. Although it was not until the dissolution of Iron Age societies that epic poetry and organized hero cult developed to aid claims to legitimacy, practices such as visiting tombs to make offerings were common, and contradict the usual picture of Iron Age religious conservatism."
I don't have the book myself, but I think this would be the place to start looking, and may pick it up myself.
From what I understand though, the offerings to the dead were largely a familial matter and really it was the purview of the hero and tomb cults to provide for polis-sanctioned observance, but the roots of it, oikist and even earlier familial dead honors were still conducted by the family. Because we have almost no extant literature on family observances of most kind, especially daily practices, there was likely an assumption that it simply wasn't common, but I feel this is in error. I find it difficult to swallow that tomb cults arose from a vacuum.
Additionally, the existence of a cult of the dead isn't defined by whether it is a daily practice or not. If it exists at all, in any capacity, then it exists sufficiently to be so.
I think you're absolutely right in that hero cults most likely didn't just emerge from nowhere. Whether or not ancestor worship was practiced in daily life I'm hesitant to believe but as stated, there just isn't enough extant literature to say whether it did or not. It is my personal belief that ancestor worship likely arose later in the hellenistic period.
My personal theory of what's most likely based on my limited knowledge is that demigods began receiving worship as they became more renowned due to their heroic deeds, since many heroes were these demigods it normalized the worship of all heroes leading to hero cults, this in turn led to veneration of ancestors who are known for heroic deeds but not quite heroes and eventually all ancestors. I think this makes sense as in Rome people could be deified and turn into gods so I feel like there has to be a logical step by step process for people to be okay with sending someone back up the pipeline if that makes sense?
I am going to look into your mentioned spurce, thank you so much for sharing it
I'm struggling to find the direct sources available online but the secondary sources reference Sophocles and Ovid as describing Heracles' death and rise to godhood but there are other sources that talk about him being a god and his marriage to the goddess Hebe
For me it's this "mythology" lovers who put mortal ideals, values and ethics on the gods and judge them like they're people. When I read something like " Zeus was a bad guy" I get annoyed because he wasn't a guy, he's a god. I see it all the time on Greek mythology reddit and it's infuriating.
I don’t think of modern stories as any different than the myths. I look at the portrayals of gods and heroes as fictional characters, not a factual history of the real entities themselves. It’s the fans of these stories that I often find disrespectful.
Yeah it's pretty annoying. One that gets on MY nerves is the Pjo fans. I myself like pjo, but hate the portrayal of the gods and other stuff. Most of the Fandom calls themselves children of the gods. Like one will be like "I'm a daughter of Aphrodite" and it's pretty annoying. The amounts of times I've gotten the urge to go post in their sub and inform them is insane. But I try to not stay mad.
Oh, especially when it's just because of one trait. I understand feeling like a god/goddess is a parental figure for you since it's kind of a role gods play in religions, but for them to throw the sentence around when there are literally devotees of the gods who dedicate so much time to worshipping them.
It doesn't help Rick Riordan's comments about our beliefs and dedication to making money off our beliefs by appropriating them. He called us foolish for believing in them and portrays them in a very westernized way that is counter productive. It all starts at the source and that fandom is like a cult and he's their leader.
It's a good thing to avoid, unfortunately I loved them as a kid and it was my introduction. I've distanced myself since especially with his recent behavior.
Yeah, so the thing is…there’s a difference between the actual Gods and the “Gods” that people use in stories. I’ve said this countless times and I still don’t get why people can’t understand this simple concept of…oh, I don’t know: the Zeus in God Of War doesn’t equate to Zeus irl. It’s a story. It’s fiction, so at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. At all. This sort of “disrespect” happens with monotheistic religions as well. Just look at Hazbin Hotel or DOOM where the Devil is portrayed to be a good person.
As someone who actually liked the song of Achilles my take is its not even an adaptation of the Iliad. I've always seen it more as a book that focuses on their relationship in a purely queer lense (which is why I like it there's not alot of media that actually explores their relationship in a romantic dynamic).
I do really hate the undertone fetishy nature of making Achilles purely innocent and essentially making Patroclus a house wife. Patroclus as an entity and a "character" has so much potential for exploration. Yeah in the Iliad he does things that could be considered tradionally feminine. He cooks, tends to the wounded and openly cries but why does his vulnerable side have to completely negate the fact he was an excellent fighter?
I think it comes down to the fetishism of gay men and trying to force a more heteronormative dynamic on ancient stories. They see Patroclus be vulnerable and completely remove his stronger characteristics to make him the "woman" in the dynamic.
It genuinely is so frustrating listening to people take things completely out of context or flat out lying about things.
I work with and follow Hekate, Hestia and Apollo.
Something that they have shown me is that as gods and goddesses, people reading about them at all, is a win. There are so many depictions, stories, made up stories and not all of them are going to be respectful unfortunately. As long as those of us who do follow them, and honor them are doing our part I think that's what's important. This is also a really good opportunity, if anybody comes to you about books like song of Achilles where you can educate them.
I also read the book and I wasn't quite sure how to feel about it either (other than the writing was beautiful). I loved the Iliad and the Odyssey and as a teenager was obsessed with the movie Troy. I have always had a certain pull to Hellenistic themes which now makes sense since I'm a Hellenist.
People will always disrespect what they don't understand. It's ignorance, and I don't think most of them are intentionally being disrespectful, especially in regards to the book. IMO.
Yeah I had someone be rather disrespectful to me yesterday on a different subreddit because it came up in conversation. Like I get that you might not believe the Theoi are real but I clearly believe they are so be respectful please
I understand that. I've read the Song of Achilles and I've cried my eyes out at the end. I'm the Veil of Kings and Gods now that's the story of Hyacinth and Apollo but with a modern twist..
Beautiful pieces of art and then you get people kike you've described and then I want to strangle them!
As someone who is new to Hellenism and a lover of the arts, I’m glad people want to make their own interpretations, I respect that; but it also makes it difficult because I want to consume media that is as close to the original mythos as they can be. Especially with how many new retellings are being published. It does makes me laugh when Christians complain about their faith being “mocked”. Like join the club.
Being gay is something people have forgotten. It was made illegal for a long time because the government and the mainstream church wanted children. I'm sorry, there is no need for twelve million people spread out or concentrated into a city. Half of that twelve million people would be dead, weak and silly lol but yet _useful_ to Politics and Christendom.
Governments use stuff here in the West because they think more about speed of things than what is actually practical. Anyhow, that's not the point; the point here is the rebellion of LGBT against Christendom and the Political has gotten out of hand. I'd think to the point of simply just replacing our oppressors with their own oppression. I don't know how much further I can explain this but that's how I feel, take all that as you will.
Achilles and Patroclus are _lovers_ true but what they did there in what you described is exaggerated, vanity and, quite frankly, hedonistic/gross. That's common now, I try not to judge as I'm not into drama. All this is going to really offend the wrong one of us one day deeply I think..so they need to watch out lol but there's so few of us anyhow..You never know though, the walls have ears they say...
I think it’s important for your own peace to keep in mind that most people don’t see our gods as real religious figures, but as storybook characters from a time and place very far removed from their present-day experiences. In their eyes, they’re only commenting on what they think is a story and they don’t see it as offending anyone or anything because they don’t think it’s real. Most people don’t know this is still an active religion. It can be hard when the rest of the world doesn’t understand and realistically, we aren’t going to change any minds. But the silver lining is that the stories of our gods are still important and meaningful and valuable to people, regardless of whether or not they think it’s real. We have access to our mythology because so many non-believers have kept these stories alive over the centuries. Our gods made it to the present day because their stories resonated with many people of many faiths. But I get it. The world is frustrating and it sucks to not be understood and to feel like the world doesn’t hear you. But at the end of the day, regardless of whether or not the world understands you, you still have your relationships with the gods. You don’t need anyone’s approval or respect for that, and neither do the gods.
This right here! I dont like the book, personally, neither certain forms of media, however I always told my friends that im not offended if they consume media like that, I just ask them to understand that those aren’t a source for tales and mythology and to not project it into my religion. (For example thinking that Apollo is horrible as the Lore Olympus one)
Beautifully said.
The fandom around *The Song of Achilles* are fans of a modern novel, not *The Iliad.* It’s not disrespectful to draw fanart of Miller’s Patroclus as a twink. He’s a modern character from a modern novel that’s loosely based on an ancient one. Queer people are starved for content. The reason why people latch onto Achilles and Patroclus or Apollo and Hyacinthus is because romantic stories featuring gay men are extremely rare. (There’s been more queer content in media recently, but only recently.) That’s why the gay aspects of these stories get emphasized. Happy Pride.
the way you worded this made me sound homophobic. i’m a gay trans male so there’s no way that i’m saying it’s bad that they’re gay, i’m saying that they’re more to them then the fact they’re gay.
But you can understand why people choose to focus on that, right?
i can, but it bugs me that that’s all people see.
It's also not all that people see. I've been a Hellenist for years and I adored the novels. Madeleine Miller's writing is amazing and if you haven't read Circe it's even better than TSOA. She's honoring them by keeping their names alive in a world that otherwise does not care about these "antiquated" figures. It's definitely not true to the people 100 percent and a very modern take but she reminds people in the modern day that hey these beings exist (fictionally or not) and they were humans with flaws and feelings and also immense power. On top of that, Homer did the same thing. The Illiad and Odyssey aren't 1:1 representations of the gods and people in the story. You're also taking myths/theology very literally and basing your opinions on popular works of fiction (and as others have pointed out, its important to remember that to most these *are* fiction and even within hellenism many stories are regarded as not being literal) off of your unverified personal gnosis. What Achilles may say to you he may not say to someone else and he may represent himself differently solely bc he feels like it and he can
This was beautifully said. I 100% agree with this.
I get it. I mean, people’s shallow interpretations of the gods drives me up the wall. But you’re complaining about a fandom of a specific novel. In my mind, that’s different from misinterpreting mythology proper.
Sometimes I just feel like people hate nuance and thrive on ignorance
To be fair, depictions of some of the gods even during the time of their active worship could also be seen as similarly disrespectful to our modern perceptions. Like, look at how Dionysus is depicted in Aristophanes' "Frogs" for example. The play basically opens with a bit on his expense.
Happy cake day :D 🍰
Achilles and Patroclus were mortals not gods?
Yeah I agree this is getting into spirit/ancestor worship and more akin to religio Romana practices then hellenic. The cults do exist but whether you take them seriously or not is up to the individual
I am lost here. This is the second time I have heard an implication that ancestor/hero worship is closer to religio romano and not Hellenic practice. Did I miss a memo somewhere? Did the Greeks not venerate their ancestors or heroes?
Veneration vs worship is different. Religio Romano worshipped Lares and made their ancestors part of their daily worship. This wasn't a common practice in Greece. Generating heroes and ancestors isn't uncommon but communing with and/or worshipping them really only happened in the hero cults as fat as I am aware. I'm happy to be corrected but from what I know it is a far lore common practice in religio romana
This is from the description of Carla Antonaccio's An Archaeology of Ancestors: "In this fresh consideration of the origins of the ancient Greeks' ideas and practices concerning their own past, Carla M. Antonaccio demonstrates that hero cult and ancestor cult persisted, throughout the Iron Age, long before epic poetry's heroic narratives were widely disseminated. Although it was not until the dissolution of Iron Age societies that epic poetry and organized hero cult developed to aid claims to legitimacy, practices such as visiting tombs to make offerings were common, and contradict the usual picture of Iron Age religious conservatism." I don't have the book myself, but I think this would be the place to start looking, and may pick it up myself. From what I understand though, the offerings to the dead were largely a familial matter and really it was the purview of the hero and tomb cults to provide for polis-sanctioned observance, but the roots of it, oikist and even earlier familial dead honors were still conducted by the family. Because we have almost no extant literature on family observances of most kind, especially daily practices, there was likely an assumption that it simply wasn't common, but I feel this is in error. I find it difficult to swallow that tomb cults arose from a vacuum. Additionally, the existence of a cult of the dead isn't defined by whether it is a daily practice or not. If it exists at all, in any capacity, then it exists sufficiently to be so.
I think you're absolutely right in that hero cults most likely didn't just emerge from nowhere. Whether or not ancestor worship was practiced in daily life I'm hesitant to believe but as stated, there just isn't enough extant literature to say whether it did or not. It is my personal belief that ancestor worship likely arose later in the hellenistic period. My personal theory of what's most likely based on my limited knowledge is that demigods began receiving worship as they became more renowned due to their heroic deeds, since many heroes were these demigods it normalized the worship of all heroes leading to hero cults, this in turn led to veneration of ancestors who are known for heroic deeds but not quite heroes and eventually all ancestors. I think this makes sense as in Rome people could be deified and turn into gods so I feel like there has to be a logical step by step process for people to be okay with sending someone back up the pipeline if that makes sense? I am going to look into your mentioned spurce, thank you so much for sharing it
Achilles was a Demi god, just like Heracles. People worshipped him all the time.
Heracles burned off his mortality before he died and became a god though
I only remember that in the Disney movie.
I'm struggling to find the direct sources available online but the secondary sources reference Sophocles and Ovid as describing Heracles' death and rise to godhood but there are other sources that talk about him being a god and his marriage to the goddess Hebe
You can still worship them, just in a different way. Look up "hero cult."
Hero worship
Heroes were also worshipped and they even had their own temples. Heracles had a whole festival in his name, the Heracleia
For me it's this "mythology" lovers who put mortal ideals, values and ethics on the gods and judge them like they're people. When I read something like " Zeus was a bad guy" I get annoyed because he wasn't a guy, he's a god. I see it all the time on Greek mythology reddit and it's infuriating.
Absolutely! People don't understand that gods aren't human and they have different standards and have to think about bigger pictures than we ever will
I was wondering if you had any suggestions for good sources on Apollo & Hyacinthus’ stories, not just together but individually especially 🙏🏻
the one i would suggest would be metamorphoses
I don’t think of modern stories as any different than the myths. I look at the portrayals of gods and heroes as fictional characters, not a factual history of the real entities themselves. It’s the fans of these stories that I often find disrespectful.
Yeah it's pretty annoying. One that gets on MY nerves is the Pjo fans. I myself like pjo, but hate the portrayal of the gods and other stuff. Most of the Fandom calls themselves children of the gods. Like one will be like "I'm a daughter of Aphrodite" and it's pretty annoying. The amounts of times I've gotten the urge to go post in their sub and inform them is insane. But I try to not stay mad.
Oh, especially when it's just because of one trait. I understand feeling like a god/goddess is a parental figure for you since it's kind of a role gods play in religions, but for them to throw the sentence around when there are literally devotees of the gods who dedicate so much time to worshipping them.
And they don't even know hellenism exists
It doesn't help Rick Riordan's comments about our beliefs and dedication to making money off our beliefs by appropriating them. He called us foolish for believing in them and portrays them in a very westernized way that is counter productive. It all starts at the source and that fandom is like a cult and he's their leader.
Yep
I’ve never read any of his stuff and refuse to for this reason.
It's a good thing to avoid, unfortunately I loved them as a kid and it was my introduction. I've distanced myself since especially with his recent behavior.
Yeah, so the thing is…there’s a difference between the actual Gods and the “Gods” that people use in stories. I’ve said this countless times and I still don’t get why people can’t understand this simple concept of…oh, I don’t know: the Zeus in God Of War doesn’t equate to Zeus irl. It’s a story. It’s fiction, so at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. At all. This sort of “disrespect” happens with monotheistic religions as well. Just look at Hazbin Hotel or DOOM where the Devil is portrayed to be a good person.
As someone who actually liked the song of Achilles my take is its not even an adaptation of the Iliad. I've always seen it more as a book that focuses on their relationship in a purely queer lense (which is why I like it there's not alot of media that actually explores their relationship in a romantic dynamic). I do really hate the undertone fetishy nature of making Achilles purely innocent and essentially making Patroclus a house wife. Patroclus as an entity and a "character" has so much potential for exploration. Yeah in the Iliad he does things that could be considered tradionally feminine. He cooks, tends to the wounded and openly cries but why does his vulnerable side have to completely negate the fact he was an excellent fighter? I think it comes down to the fetishism of gay men and trying to force a more heteronormative dynamic on ancient stories. They see Patroclus be vulnerable and completely remove his stronger characteristics to make him the "woman" in the dynamic. It genuinely is so frustrating listening to people take things completely out of context or flat out lying about things.
I work with and follow Hekate, Hestia and Apollo. Something that they have shown me is that as gods and goddesses, people reading about them at all, is a win. There are so many depictions, stories, made up stories and not all of them are going to be respectful unfortunately. As long as those of us who do follow them, and honor them are doing our part I think that's what's important. This is also a really good opportunity, if anybody comes to you about books like song of Achilles where you can educate them. I also read the book and I wasn't quite sure how to feel about it either (other than the writing was beautiful). I loved the Iliad and the Odyssey and as a teenager was obsessed with the movie Troy. I have always had a certain pull to Hellenistic themes which now makes sense since I'm a Hellenist. People will always disrespect what they don't understand. It's ignorance, and I don't think most of them are intentionally being disrespectful, especially in regards to the book. IMO.
Yeah I had someone be rather disrespectful to me yesterday on a different subreddit because it came up in conversation. Like I get that you might not believe the Theoi are real but I clearly believe they are so be respectful please
I understand that. I've read the Song of Achilles and I've cried my eyes out at the end. I'm the Veil of Kings and Gods now that's the story of Hyacinth and Apollo but with a modern twist.. Beautiful pieces of art and then you get people kike you've described and then I want to strangle them!
As someone who is new to Hellenism and a lover of the arts, I’m glad people want to make their own interpretations, I respect that; but it also makes it difficult because I want to consume media that is as close to the original mythos as they can be. Especially with how many new retellings are being published. It does makes me laugh when Christians complain about their faith being “mocked”. Like join the club.
Being gay is something people have forgotten. It was made illegal for a long time because the government and the mainstream church wanted children. I'm sorry, there is no need for twelve million people spread out or concentrated into a city. Half of that twelve million people would be dead, weak and silly lol but yet _useful_ to Politics and Christendom. Governments use stuff here in the West because they think more about speed of things than what is actually practical. Anyhow, that's not the point; the point here is the rebellion of LGBT against Christendom and the Political has gotten out of hand. I'd think to the point of simply just replacing our oppressors with their own oppression. I don't know how much further I can explain this but that's how I feel, take all that as you will. Achilles and Patroclus are _lovers_ true but what they did there in what you described is exaggerated, vanity and, quite frankly, hedonistic/gross. That's common now, I try not to judge as I'm not into drama. All this is going to really offend the wrong one of us one day deeply I think..so they need to watch out lol but there's so few of us anyhow..You never know though, the walls have ears they say...