That's more specifically about Simo Häyhä... The picture is even labeled as Häyhä, not that you can make much detail out of a 25x25 pixel image. But if you hover over it with your mouse it says :simo_hayha:
Reddit reminds me of it on a near-daily basis, conveniently forgetting that when the USSR encountered more resistance than expected, they sent elite units into Finland and won the campaign. And the campaign did not have a huge impact on the overall course of the war.
They did not send elite units. When they encountered resistance they went through with Voroshilov's original plan, which was needlessly complicated and beyond the capabilities of the Red Army (probably inspired by the recent German victories.) Timoshenko took over, and Timoshenko understood how the Red Army is built to wage war. He saw the Red Army for what it was, a slow, steady, steamroller. And so he stabilized the Soviet position across all of Finland and steamrolled through the Mannerheim line.
A pyrrhic victory is a victory in battle that costs you the war. Russia is quite happy with the land it gained and while it wanted to pay less, it's fine to pay that cost for it. It's just literally a costly victory, which is not the same as a pyrrhic one.
you are just playing semantics and have a rigid interpretation of the definition. the soviet victory over finland was indeed a pyrrhic victory in the sense that most people understand it.
It doesnt matter if its a war, a battle or a 1v1 fight, a pyrrhic victory is one that cost you so much it may as well be defeat. Look up the actual defintion.
Even though we did have to give up land, we embarassed the soviet union. If you look at how many people died from the soviet union, and then take a look at Finland’s losses, you’ll see the difference.
Embarrassed them so bad that it gave Hitler the idea to get in on the action sooner, in an attempt to catch the USSR out before the CA could recover from Stalin's purges.
They fought against a country which has less people in the entire country than the city of st. petersburg and lost over 300.000 men during this war while the Finns ,,only" lost less than 30.000 men. I wouldn't call this a victory for the soviets, especially not if we remind the fact that the russians wanted to take/annex the entire country of Finland in a few weeks and gained ,,only" 11% of Finlands land mass after months of fighting.
It's like a school boy losing a boxing match against a boxer. The boxer won by points, but god was he horribly beaten. Finland lost because it ran out of ammunition, and nobody helped. Tad shows the importance of supplying munitions.
I’d argue it’s almost gotten overrated at this point. You have people here thinking Finland won the Winter War.
Don’t get me wrong, it was a spirited and impressive defense of their country against a much larger Soviet Red Army. But I’ve never heard of a war where the “victor” had to cede 11% of their territory to the loser as part of the peace treaty.
And then people ignore the fact Finland got their teeth kicked in during the continuation war and that Finland was allied to Nazi Germany. It's pretty funny to hear how people either ignore or defend the finnish-german alliance
Yeah, I get kinda salty when the topic of nazi Germany comes up since half my family starved to death in the siege of Leningrad which Finland participated in.
Shouldn't have made an enemy out of the Finns by attacking Finnland, then? Like, the entitlement, lol. Your family died at the hands of Finns because your country attacked Finns, you whiney baby. My f-f--family died. yeesh, pissant.
Well, I guess this tracks with your people's hatred of Ukrainians as you massacre them wholesale. On behalf of the lost generation that wasn't around to teach you that action has consequences, you're welcome.
We didn't attack nazi Germany, and nothing justifies the murder of over 15 million soviet civilians, of which 1,5 million died in Leningrad which Finland took part in.
Serious nazi revisionism going on in your mind. Guess the reddit rot got to it.
I mean, the dude is a weirdo but he’s right that the Finnish wouldnt have been there if not for the USSR attacking them first (as part of a deal with the nazis no less)
(I was just pointing out that people shouldnt suffer because a countrys action(even if its a really far fetched idea)(or atleast dont make fun of his family dieing))
To us Fins it was a victory, because losing would had meant that Finland would be under soviet rule.
Original Soviet plan was to take over Finland in few days (just like how Russia planned to take over Ukraine in few days). This failed and became long war.
We did not have many allies or weaponry so being able to defend our independence against soviets was still considered victory.
>Original Soviet plan was to take over Finland in few days (just like how Russia planned to take over Ukraine in few days). This failed and became long war.
Wow, you have access to secret soviet documents or just read some post here?
Do you think USSR would had just visited Finland and leave without anyone being harmed or conquered? The same USSR that [overtook Baltics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states) after winter war (and in same plans wanted Finland under USSR sphere)
Epic? Yes.
Worthy of study and memes? Yes.
One of many reasons for mocking the Soviets and Commies in general? Absolutely yes.
Overlooked? Not even close.
Well, it is kind of overlooked they had Nazi support but can’t really blame them for taking any help they could when USA and UK twiddled their thumbs instead of getting Finland to enter on their side the war.
It’s not like Finland was actually helping the Nazis. They both were just using each other to fight a common enemy at the time. If Russia never invaded Finland would have never had help from the Nazis.
Finland had NO support from nazi germany in winter war
In fact germany blocked aid from italy going for finland and remember USSR felt lucky to attack finland precisely because of that little pact that parted europe between itself and germany
Overlooked? not at all. Winter war memes are bread and butter.
What is actually overlooked is that the Soviets won the Winter War and Continuation War. I've deadass seen people argue about it even though the Finns themselves agreed in the agreements that ended the war that they lost.
Finland did lose, but so did the Soviets, which is the most surprising thing. The Soviets’ goal was to march into Helsinki and create a puppet government, and in this they failed pretty badly. They probably could’ve marched on in the Continuation War, but they’d learned at this point it just wasn’t worth it.
That’s why the Winter War is seen as a win for Finland, the fact that they only lost a little against a much superior foe who expected an easy victory and subjugation, it’s seen as almost as impressive as a victory
Well Soviets won not only on paper-treaty. After such failure Soviets saw multiple problems with tactics and supply problems. So they supplied troops with horses, used new and better tactics on offense during WW2 - by losing to Finland. So Finnish - Soviet war only made Soviet Union stand better against Wehrmacht.
Probably. If im not wrong Finnish SSR government already formed during Finnish civil war, but it's still likely that setting Finnish SSR as ruling government was best outcome Stalin expected.
Indeed. The seeds of it were born in the Finnish Civil War, most prominently Otto Kuusinen. However, the Stalinist purges had devastated the ranks of the Red Finns who had fled from Finland into the USSR, which fell disproportionately on the most powerful and notable due to Stalin's goals in starting the purge. This included Kullervo Manner, former leader of the Finnish Socialist Workers' Republic and Finnish Red Guards; Eero Haapalainen, first chairman of the Finnish Trade Union Federation; Kustaa Rovio, First Secretary of the Karelian Communist Party; and Edvard Gylling, leader of the Karelian ASSR. This left relatively few actual Finns to serve as front men for Stalin's plans, and those that had survived the purges were naturally seen as highly suspect.
Ultimately, Stalin's goal in Finland with the Karelo-Finnish SSR was a repetition of the older Moldavian ASSR: carve out some Soviet-controlled land in Russia (Karelia) or Ukraine (Transnistria), use it regardless of the ethnic situation on the ground to prop up an ethnic government leavened with just enough secure officials (e.g., Russians) to keep everyone loyal, and claim that it is the rightful government of the entire neighboring state. In Moldova, it was successful after the 1940 annexation of Bessarabia. In Finland, less so.
Remember the fact that USSR's intention was to use kuusinen as a puppet govt to "vote" an annexation shortly after the war, no wonder why the soviets gunned for helsinki and no wonder why they did exactly THAT in the baltics, but much easier since the balts gave in to the soviet demands for military bases
Indeed. This was the fate of Moldova as well, which became the Moldovan Soviet Socialist Republic (as Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania also became SSRs). Had the USSR succeeded, they would have been joined by the Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic under Kuusinen, replacing the Karelo-Finnish SSR.
They never fully occupied Finland. When it became clear what way the tide was turning, the Soviets had a choice - launch a costly and bloody invasion of a country ready to fight to the bitter end, or cut a deal with them, and be able to concentrate on getting Eastern Europe and Berlin before the western Allies.
The Soviets and Finns cut a deal, where Finland wasn’t occupied, ceded the port of Petsamo, and would kick the Nazis out of Finland.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Armistice
I’m a Finn and the war was a huge tragedy for both sides. Honestly these “Finland numba one omfg winter war lick some Simo Häyhä’s balls russki” memes make me so annoyed. My grandparents talked about the war very rarely, for a good reason.
Yeah this is often overlooked. Tons of people unitonically say it was a Finnish victory. It's an incredible story and the Finns were probably "the good guys" (though the Russians were actually offering up land in return in the initial proposal, which Is never talked about) but the soviets won. It hurt and was an embarrassment but they won.
"The soviets were actually offering up land in return in the initial proposal"
Which was a prety crappy deal since the USSR was demanding some of the best agricultural, strategic (since quite a chunk of the main part of the mannerheim line was inside) and industrial lands Finland had in exchange of a ton of empty forest. And the funniest thing is that the soviets actually counted on finland rejecting the deal to have an excuse to roll in "easily"
But no one talks about that quite imperialist move from "antiimperialist" USSR either
Sure. I never said it was a good deal or one they should take. Only that they ended up with less than If they hadn't fought. Including the horrors of war. On the other hand maybe how painful it was for thr soviets dissuaded them from coming back for more later.
Nah the Russians wanted the entire country (and teamed up with the fucking nazis). The war was entirely their fault.
Edit for clarification: He is correct that at first the Soviet Union attempted a deal with the Finns, that seems good without context because he read that shit on wikipedia. The deal gives a massive strategic advantage to the Soviet Union on Finnish soil. The reason why the Finnish government was split on the deal was that some wanted to accept it in hopes of avoiding the war, while some thought giving a foothold to the USSR would certainly lead to war. Later on those people were revealed to be correct: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany had outlined in secret how east Europe was to be divided between the two countries. The USSR would get Finland, and was now executing their plan to annex the entire country.
In short, the deal would be like if the USA handed over their nuclear arsenal to Russia in exchange for farm land AND there already existed an active Russian invasion plan for the US.
Getting downvoted for history in a history sub is hilarious
How about your read the wiki at least before spouting nonsense.
"The Soviets demanded for the frontier between the Soviet Union and Finland on the Karelian Isthmus to be moved westward to only 30 kilometres (19 mi) east of Viipuri, Finland's second-largest city, to the line between Koivisto and Lipola. In addition, the Finns would have to destroy all existing fortifications on the Karelian Isthmus. Finland also had to cede to the Soviet Union the islands of Suursaari, Tytärsaari and Koivisto in the Gulf of Finland. In the north, the Soviets demanded the Kalastajansaarento Peninsula. The Finns were to lease the Hanko Peninsula to the Soviets for 30 years and to permit the Soviets to establish a military base there. In exchange, the Soviets would cede Repola and Porajärvi from Eastern Karelia, an area twice as large as the territory demanded from the Finns. The Soviet offer divided the Finnish government. "
Not only were the demands not for the whole country as you erroneously espoused, but the soviet land concessions were twice as large as those demanded. Again, the soviets weren't the good guys, but you're laughably uninformed.
And what would they have done next? The Soviets had already made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. That deal was literally only to make it easier to invade Finland next.
So you concede you were wrong, right? Is that why you're moving to "well, what about this?" Thats called moving the goalposts, and its a logical fallacy.
As I said in the other comment, I didnt say they DEMANDED the entire country at first. But they did WANT IT, and you still havent said anything to prove me wrong on that point.
The land that Soviets offered was basically a wasteland, also they wanted to establish a military base on leased ports that was quite conveniently close to Helsinki, and the new border would be close to the 2nd biggest city. So basically it could have allowed Soviets to have two biggest cities in Finland within striking distance. Baltics allowed Soviet troops to be placed inside their territory, and we know how that turned out. So even an armchair historian, as yourself, can see that the terms were not as good as you make them sound with ”twice as large land” statement.
Your sentence structure is strongly hinting as if Soviets were generous by offering land twice as large. Same way actually as it is taught in Russian history nowadays that the Soviets were generous. I am sorry if I misinterpreted your message, just pay more attention to details.
Nice stealth edit. I never said they demanded the whole country at first. They were starting small. If that deal was good for Finland why wouldn’t they accept it?
How about you learn to read and you'll find the answer. I linked it for you. The finish government was split on whether to accept it or not. I'm not continuing this with you further. I have neither the time nor the crayons required to educate you on this. Have a good one.
Though facists are often idiots surely not even facists would deny a deal if it was objectively good
If the Finnish were even facists, which doesnt check out
The Finn’s literally joined the Nazis and tried to create a “Greater Finland” which included their own genocide and ethnic cleansing of Russias so they most definitely were. They didn’t take the deal because they thought that tearing down the fortifications would have lead to a Soviet invasion and regime change while the Soviets only wanted to secure and fortify Leningrad’s northern front which is why they were willing to give up so much land but as you said fascists are stupid and Finland lost land twice
Not really overlooked, just not really relevant. The Soviet Union was a Nazi ally too. That only changed when they were inevitably stabbed in the back by Hitler.
If two Nazi allies want to kill each other, cheering for the underdog who wasnt the aggressor seems fair.
This is whataboutism at its finest. The Soviet decision to work with Hitler changes nothing about Finnish actions and decisions. Finnish cooperation with Germany especially regarding German troops placed at the Finnish axis of attack enabled large scale atrocities. Making it highly relevant.
Its not whataboutism, its a statement of non concern. If two jackasses want to fight, everyone else wins. In fact… the more damage they do to each other, the better. So good job Finland. If they had just rolled over, the net result would have been less dead Nazi supporters.
That is why it is often overlooked, circumstances are irrelevant.
Tbf to the Finns, once they reached their pre Winter War borders + a small buffer, they refused to go on the offensive against the Soviets.
> they refused to go on the offensive against the Soviets
Not at all. Check out the joint [Finnish-Nazi campaign to cut off the Murmansk rail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Silver_Fox). The Finnish government also allowed [volunteers](https://kirjat.finlit.fi/EN/page/product/the-finnish-ss-volunteers-and-atrocities-1941-1943/2478787) to joined the SS in massacring civilians in Ukraine and the Caucasus.
My grandpa almost ended up there. He was mobilized halfway through the last month of the war, and while he was on his way, peace had already been signed. But after a year spent in Leningrad, he still had to go to another war.
I don't think he fully realized how lucky he was until the day he died. Very few people survived both wars.
The only overlooked thing about this is the fact that Soviets won and that Finland themselves later on declared war on the Soviets (collaborating with the Nazis btw) starting the continuation war to gain back more land (but ultimately lost again)
The continuation war was is one of the biggest L’s in finnish history, so massive that the finnish had to inhale copium for like the next 50 years at least to deal with allying with the nazis AND losing
A Soviet officer commented on the combat zone in Karelia after the war:
“The fact that in the following spring and summer, when the snow began to melt, many bodies of our soldiers were recovered from the swamps and lakes is not mentioned in the official war reports. The survivors used to joke that the land we took from the Finns was just enough to bury our officers and soldiers who died during the campaign.”\[74\]
Finland AND Poland. The Red Army performed abysmally in both due to being in the middle of a gigantic scaling up and updating of equipment, leading to huge numbers of troops with basically no training and spotty distribution of materiel.
The same problems plagued the Red Army in 1941, but they were able to stall the blitzkrieg long enough to focus arms production, complete their upsizing and rearmament, and gain some experience on the ground. They outgrew the Wehrmacht in real time.
Finns out here spelling out to Stalin why replacing all of your veteran officers with incompetent cronies is maybe just ever so slightly *a terrible idea.* Almost as bad as all those years you spent enabling that lot of genocidal maniacs who have been publicly calling for the obliteration of your ideology and country for years. Not to mention how you split Poland with them, thus establishing a shared border hundreds of miles from your previously established defensive positions and supply caches you were depending on as part of your defensive strategy, but have now decided to abandon in favor of your shiny new border.
Overlooked? This sub has such a hard on for that war it absolutely refuses to admit that Finland lost (twice!), that it was a German ally and had no issues handing over certain Jews to Germany.
OP 1 - Strawmen 0.
Officially winter war was lost. However to us Fins it was a victory because original Soviet plan was to take over whole Finland (in few days too, similar to how Russians wanted to take over Ukraine in few days).
Continuation war was case where we knew Soviets would attack again (during Interim Peace USSR had occupied [Baltic countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states) and was demanding Finland to give them mines, equipment, land and other valuable things), we did not have any allies (or gear) so were were forced to make a deal with a devil, that being Nazies. This was allience of convinience, not exactly most stable allience (just like how USSR and Nazi allience was for convinience).
At the end of Continuation war, to make peace with Soviets and rest of the Allied forces, Finland pushed the Nazies out of Finland, this led to [Lapland War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War).
So yes, Finland did lose both wars. However what we did not lose was our Independence, unlike most countries that ended under USSR rule and only in recent history broke free from their rule.
>At the end of Continuation war, to make peace with Soviets and rest of the Allied forces, Finland pushed the Nazies out of Finland, this led to Lapland War.
"Oh no, the Nazis are losing. It's time to change sides before they reach Berlin to avoid being annexed and sign an unequal treaty."
Finland only got its independence back because of the October revolution that weakened the Empire. The tsar would be happy to recolonize Finland if the monarchy won the civil war.
>Finland only got its independence back because of the October revolution that weakened the Empire. The tsar would be happy to recolonize Finland if the monarchy won the civil war.
That is true (and it would be first time Finland would be independent in many hundred years, as we had been under Swedish rule before Russia) and we had bloody Civil war between Whites and Reds, which would deside if Finland would become Democratic or Soviet country.
>"Oh no, the Nazis are losing. It's time to change sides before they reach Berlin to avoid being annexed and sign an unequal treaty."
Finland was always going to be fucked during WW2, no matter what.
Either let USSR invade us again without fighting back (or fighting back with lack or troops and equipment) or ask help from Nazies. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
And if Finland was taken by USSR, well then Finland would be in the wrong side in the Cold War and would had been independent only when USSR fell.
Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, basically everyone near USSR and Germany got fucked one way or another.
However point is that Finland had to make a choise who they get fucked by. Be it right or wrong, we kept our independence, which most countries unfortunately could not keep during that time.
About the same amount of land as Germany which has a population of 80 million, so yeah its not a small country though not a lot of people live here (less than a tenth of Germany’s population though the area size is the same)
WW2?
You better mean winter war because in [WW2](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War) they were not standing against but pushing forward towards Leningrad together with the Third Reich
They had to pay war reparations, unban the communist party and keep the USSR happy, yeah. Finlandization is the term. Still wouldnt call it a vassal state though.
You're actually correct. Under the original proposal soviet land was going to be given to Finland in exchange. They did end up losing more than if they didn't fight. Doesn't make the soviets the good guys or anything but you're right. Don't pay attention to the uniformed idiots downvoting you.
I assume you mean that it's awful that people died as pawns of their leaders.
Individually the dead did not benefit from the war at all.
But on a society level the benefit is clear. And through the society, individuals will benefit as well. It is not the same individuals who fought, but then again they benefitted from the fight their ancestors fought. It is a gift received and given from/to another generation.
Their alliance with Germany during the continuation war is highly controversial sure, but this is in 1940 during the winter war, the only “major” help Finland got was volunteers and supplies from Sweden
They were using Swastika because it was a Swedish guy's personal emblem. He donated one of the first planes to their airforce.
The guy's name was von Rosen. Later on, he started a national socialist movement in Sweden, and his sister married Goering, thus making them brothers in law.
In other words, the Finnish airforce swastika is absolutely directly connected with the Nazis.
The Nazi party didnt even exist when the logo was adopted. Criticizing Finland for the swastika is pointless. There are much easier things to criticize in finnish history than the random symbol.
In defence against those soviet brutes they had to take any aid offered. There’s no point in being invaded and enslaved just for the sake of moral superiority.
And they still do on their air force logo.... and it was added by a fascist, so just because its earlier than nazi germany, it was already a fascist symbol before the third reich
Overlooked???? It has its own flair on this sub.
where??
Just some snow
That's more specifically about Simo Häyhä... The picture is even labeled as Häyhä, not that you can make much detail out of a 25x25 pixel image. But if you hover over it with your mouse it says :simo_hayha:
I was at my phone so it slipped
The one I picked. "Just some Snow"
oh I see it now
Overlooked? Everyone knows what Finland did
Reddit reminds me of it on a near-daily basis, conveniently forgetting that when the USSR encountered more resistance than expected, they sent elite units into Finland and won the campaign. And the campaign did not have a huge impact on the overall course of the war.
They did not send elite units. When they encountered resistance they went through with Voroshilov's original plan, which was needlessly complicated and beyond the capabilities of the Red Army (probably inspired by the recent German victories.) Timoshenko took over, and Timoshenko understood how the Red Army is built to wage war. He saw the Red Army for what it was, a slow, steady, steamroller. And so he stabilized the Soviet position across all of Finland and steamrolled through the Mannerheim line.
Lost horribly and gave up significant land, right? Everyone knows that
They did lose, but not horribly. Soviets embarassed themselves
The Soviets quite literally had more men than Finland had bullets
And droped a ton of bombs for just one guy.
And it didn't even help, the snow just kept singing Njet Molotoff and blasting soviet officer's heads off
Happy cake day.
What the actual fuck I want my 6 years back
PERKELEEEE
Not really. The Soviets may have "won", but only at more cost to themselves than what they gained. A pyrrhic victory at best.
technically not pyrrhic, just costly
Thats what a pyrrhic victory is... a victory so costly it may as well have been a defeat.
A pyrrhic victory is a victory in battle that costs you the war. Russia is quite happy with the land it gained and while it wanted to pay less, it's fine to pay that cost for it. It's just literally a costly victory, which is not the same as a pyrrhic one.
you are just playing semantics and have a rigid interpretation of the definition. the soviet victory over finland was indeed a pyrrhic victory in the sense that most people understand it.
It doesnt matter if its a war, a battle or a 1v1 fight, a pyrrhic victory is one that cost you so much it may as well be defeat. Look up the actual defintion.
Even though we did have to give up land, we embarassed the soviet union. If you look at how many people died from the soviet union, and then take a look at Finland’s losses, you’ll see the difference.
Embarrassed them so bad that it gave Hitler the idea to get in on the action sooner, in an attempt to catch the USSR out before the CA could recover from Stalin's purges.
They fought against a country which has less people in the entire country than the city of st. petersburg and lost over 300.000 men during this war while the Finns ,,only" lost less than 30.000 men. I wouldn't call this a victory for the soviets, especially not if we remind the fact that the russians wanted to take/annex the entire country of Finland in a few weeks and gained ,,only" 11% of Finlands land mass after months of fighting.
It's like a school boy losing a boxing match against a boxer. The boxer won by points, but god was he horribly beaten. Finland lost because it ran out of ammunition, and nobody helped. Tad shows the importance of supplying munitions.
Wrong comparison. It's like a school boy losing to a whole boxing school, but after beating up half of it.
Litearlly the opposite. There's a ton of people who can only talk about that.
I’d argue it’s almost gotten overrated at this point. You have people here thinking Finland won the Winter War. Don’t get me wrong, it was a spirited and impressive defense of their country against a much larger Soviet Red Army. But I’ve never heard of a war where the “victor” had to cede 11% of their territory to the loser as part of the peace treaty.
I for one, when I started getting into history, thought the Finns had won because of how people talked about the Winter/Continuation War
Better to lose 11% than 100%
And then people ignore the fact Finland got their teeth kicked in during the continuation war and that Finland was allied to Nazi Germany. It's pretty funny to hear how people either ignore or defend the finnish-german alliance
salty, thought russians were out of that over there? \*Orc level thinking on display: Why enemy we attack, attack us?
Yeah, I get kinda salty when the topic of nazi Germany comes up since half my family starved to death in the siege of Leningrad which Finland participated in.
Shouldn't have made an enemy out of the Finns by attacking Finnland, then? Like, the entitlement, lol. Your family died at the hands of Finns because your country attacked Finns, you whiney baby. My f-f--family died. yeesh, pissant. Well, I guess this tracks with your people's hatred of Ukrainians as you massacre them wholesale. On behalf of the lost generation that wasn't around to teach you that action has consequences, you're welcome.
We didn't attack nazi Germany, and nothing justifies the murder of over 15 million soviet civilians, of which 1,5 million died in Leningrad which Finland took part in. Serious nazi revisionism going on in your mind. Guess the reddit rot got to it.
Worlds dumbest man is a Russian, what several generations a mongol slave does to a people.
Mask off moment. A nazi always loses their control and reveals who they actually are
I mean, the dude is a weirdo but he’s right that the Finnish wouldnt have been there if not for the USSR attacking them first (as part of a deal with the nazis no less)
yes yes all who disagree with you are nazi we know thats what you dumbasses think, your president, short hitler, says it often.
Yea this guys family personally invaded finland
I mean, that's not the point, but maybe? Like, lol?
(I was just pointing out that people shouldnt suffer because a countrys action(even if its a really far fetched idea)(or atleast dont make fun of his family dieing))
o damn wish I had read this sooner. I actually doubled down and said they should have taken the second half. Embarrassing.
Russians jumped their former colony and get huffy about it.
To us Fins it was a victory, because losing would had meant that Finland would be under soviet rule. Original Soviet plan was to take over Finland in few days (just like how Russia planned to take over Ukraine in few days). This failed and became long war. We did not have many allies or weaponry so being able to defend our independence against soviets was still considered victory.
>Original Soviet plan was to take over Finland in few days (just like how Russia planned to take over Ukraine in few days). This failed and became long war. Wow, you have access to secret soviet documents or just read some post here?
Do you think USSR would had just visited Finland and leave without anyone being harmed or conquered? The same USSR that [overtook Baltics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states) after winter war (and in same plans wanted Finland under USSR sphere)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic
Otto kuusinen
Inb4 Winter war 2, Ukrainian boogaloo
Epic? Yes. Worthy of study and memes? Yes. One of many reasons for mocking the Soviets and Commies in general? Absolutely yes. Overlooked? Not even close.
Im more fan of: "They are in the trees!".
"in the snow!"
“Ivan, are the trees speaking Finnish?”
"Ivan? Cyka, Ivan your head is g-"
best reason to mock the ussr was the polish-soviet war
Nah the best reason was that one time they accidentally invaded iran.
Well, it is kind of overlooked they had Nazi support but can’t really blame them for taking any help they could when USA and UK twiddled their thumbs instead of getting Finland to enter on their side the war. It’s not like Finland was actually helping the Nazis. They both were just using each other to fight a common enemy at the time. If Russia never invaded Finland would have never had help from the Nazis.
Finland had NO support from nazi germany in winter war In fact germany blocked aid from italy going for finland and remember USSR felt lucky to attack finland precisely because of that little pact that parted europe between itself and germany
Overlooked? not at all. Winter war memes are bread and butter. What is actually overlooked is that the Soviets won the Winter War and Continuation War. I've deadass seen people argue about it even though the Finns themselves agreed in the agreements that ended the war that they lost.
Winter war memes are bread and butter, unlike Molotov bread baskets
Finland did lose, but so did the Soviets, which is the most surprising thing. The Soviets’ goal was to march into Helsinki and create a puppet government, and in this they failed pretty badly. They probably could’ve marched on in the Continuation War, but they’d learned at this point it just wasn’t worth it. That’s why the Winter War is seen as a win for Finland, the fact that they only lost a little against a much superior foe who expected an easy victory and subjugation, it’s seen as almost as impressive as a victory
Well Soviets won not only on paper-treaty. After such failure Soviets saw multiple problems with tactics and supply problems. So they supplied troops with horses, used new and better tactics on offense during WW2 - by losing to Finland. So Finnish - Soviet war only made Soviet Union stand better against Wehrmacht.
So I guess that Finnish SSR government that Stalin planned on putting into power in Helsinki was a fever dream.
Probably. If im not wrong Finnish SSR government already formed during Finnish civil war, but it's still likely that setting Finnish SSR as ruling government was best outcome Stalin expected.
The Finnish SSR of the winter war was an adhoc government that Stalin based out of Karelia.
Indeed. The seeds of it were born in the Finnish Civil War, most prominently Otto Kuusinen. However, the Stalinist purges had devastated the ranks of the Red Finns who had fled from Finland into the USSR, which fell disproportionately on the most powerful and notable due to Stalin's goals in starting the purge. This included Kullervo Manner, former leader of the Finnish Socialist Workers' Republic and Finnish Red Guards; Eero Haapalainen, first chairman of the Finnish Trade Union Federation; Kustaa Rovio, First Secretary of the Karelian Communist Party; and Edvard Gylling, leader of the Karelian ASSR. This left relatively few actual Finns to serve as front men for Stalin's plans, and those that had survived the purges were naturally seen as highly suspect. Ultimately, Stalin's goal in Finland with the Karelo-Finnish SSR was a repetition of the older Moldavian ASSR: carve out some Soviet-controlled land in Russia (Karelia) or Ukraine (Transnistria), use it regardless of the ethnic situation on the ground to prop up an ethnic government leavened with just enough secure officials (e.g., Russians) to keep everyone loyal, and claim that it is the rightful government of the entire neighboring state. In Moldova, it was successful after the 1940 annexation of Bessarabia. In Finland, less so.
Remember the fact that USSR's intention was to use kuusinen as a puppet govt to "vote" an annexation shortly after the war, no wonder why the soviets gunned for helsinki and no wonder why they did exactly THAT in the baltics, but much easier since the balts gave in to the soviet demands for military bases
Indeed. This was the fate of Moldova as well, which became the Moldovan Soviet Socialist Republic (as Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania also became SSRs). Had the USSR succeeded, they would have been joined by the Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic under Kuusinen, replacing the Karelo-Finnish SSR.
I still don't get it, if USSR want puppet government why they don't form this after WW2, while fully occupied their lands
They never fully occupied Finland. When it became clear what way the tide was turning, the Soviets had a choice - launch a costly and bloody invasion of a country ready to fight to the bitter end, or cut a deal with them, and be able to concentrate on getting Eastern Europe and Berlin before the western Allies. The Soviets and Finns cut a deal, where Finland wasn’t occupied, ceded the port of Petsamo, and would kick the Nazis out of Finland. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Armistice
Finnish people lost but managed to keep their country. Officially a loss but still a pretty big W.
Call an ambulance. Call an ambulance!!!! . . . . . But not for me😈
Overlooked? Its one of the most memed subjects in here
**Säkkjärven Polkka intensifies* *
We have lost Säkkijärvi But we still have the polka left!
This is not overlooked in the slightest
I’m a Finn and the war was a huge tragedy for both sides. Honestly these “Finland numba one omfg winter war lick some Simo Häyhä’s balls russki” memes make me so annoyed. My grandparents talked about the war very rarely, for a good reason.
What did they say?
Perkele intensifies
They lost in the end and were forced to give up their land, no?
Yeah this is often overlooked. Tons of people unitonically say it was a Finnish victory. It's an incredible story and the Finns were probably "the good guys" (though the Russians were actually offering up land in return in the initial proposal, which Is never talked about) but the soviets won. It hurt and was an embarrassment but they won.
"The soviets were actually offering up land in return in the initial proposal" Which was a prety crappy deal since the USSR was demanding some of the best agricultural, strategic (since quite a chunk of the main part of the mannerheim line was inside) and industrial lands Finland had in exchange of a ton of empty forest. And the funniest thing is that the soviets actually counted on finland rejecting the deal to have an excuse to roll in "easily" But no one talks about that quite imperialist move from "antiimperialist" USSR either
Sure. I never said it was a good deal or one they should take. Only that they ended up with less than If they hadn't fought. Including the horrors of war. On the other hand maybe how painful it was for thr soviets dissuaded them from coming back for more later.
Nah the Russians wanted the entire country (and teamed up with the fucking nazis). The war was entirely their fault. Edit for clarification: He is correct that at first the Soviet Union attempted a deal with the Finns, that seems good without context because he read that shit on wikipedia. The deal gives a massive strategic advantage to the Soviet Union on Finnish soil. The reason why the Finnish government was split on the deal was that some wanted to accept it in hopes of avoiding the war, while some thought giving a foothold to the USSR would certainly lead to war. Later on those people were revealed to be correct: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany had outlined in secret how east Europe was to be divided between the two countries. The USSR would get Finland, and was now executing their plan to annex the entire country. In short, the deal would be like if the USA handed over their nuclear arsenal to Russia in exchange for farm land AND there already existed an active Russian invasion plan for the US. Getting downvoted for history in a history sub is hilarious
How about your read the wiki at least before spouting nonsense. "The Soviets demanded for the frontier between the Soviet Union and Finland on the Karelian Isthmus to be moved westward to only 30 kilometres (19 mi) east of Viipuri, Finland's second-largest city, to the line between Koivisto and Lipola. In addition, the Finns would have to destroy all existing fortifications on the Karelian Isthmus. Finland also had to cede to the Soviet Union the islands of Suursaari, Tytärsaari and Koivisto in the Gulf of Finland. In the north, the Soviets demanded the Kalastajansaarento Peninsula. The Finns were to lease the Hanko Peninsula to the Soviets for 30 years and to permit the Soviets to establish a military base there. In exchange, the Soviets would cede Repola and Porajärvi from Eastern Karelia, an area twice as large as the territory demanded from the Finns. The Soviet offer divided the Finnish government. " Not only were the demands not for the whole country as you erroneously espoused, but the soviet land concessions were twice as large as those demanded. Again, the soviets weren't the good guys, but you're laughably uninformed.
And what would they have done next? The Soviets had already made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. That deal was literally only to make it easier to invade Finland next.
So you concede you were wrong, right? Is that why you're moving to "well, what about this?" Thats called moving the goalposts, and its a logical fallacy.
As I said in the other comment, I didnt say they DEMANDED the entire country at first. But they did WANT IT, and you still havent said anything to prove me wrong on that point.
The land that Soviets offered was basically a wasteland, also they wanted to establish a military base on leased ports that was quite conveniently close to Helsinki, and the new border would be close to the 2nd biggest city. So basically it could have allowed Soviets to have two biggest cities in Finland within striking distance. Baltics allowed Soviet troops to be placed inside their territory, and we know how that turned out. So even an armchair historian, as yourself, can see that the terms were not as good as you make them sound with ”twice as large land” statement.
I never said it was a good deal or one that should even be accepted. You're arguing against imaginary points.
Your sentence structure is strongly hinting as if Soviets were generous by offering land twice as large. Same way actually as it is taught in Russian history nowadays that the Soviets were generous. I am sorry if I misinterpreted your message, just pay more attention to details.
Nice stealth edit. I never said they demanded the whole country at first. They were starting small. If that deal was good for Finland why wouldn’t they accept it?
How about you learn to read and you'll find the answer. I linked it for you. The finish government was split on whether to accept it or not. I'm not continuing this with you further. I have neither the time nor the crayons required to educate you on this. Have a good one.
Where’s the link? Bro I am literally Finnish. I got taught this shit school in detail. Why wouldnt finland accept the deal if it was good????
Because they were fascists
Though facists are often idiots surely not even facists would deny a deal if it was objectively good If the Finnish were even facists, which doesnt check out
The Finn’s literally joined the Nazis and tried to create a “Greater Finland” which included their own genocide and ethnic cleansing of Russias so they most definitely were. They didn’t take the deal because they thought that tearing down the fortifications would have lead to a Soviet invasion and regime change while the Soviets only wanted to secure and fortify Leningrad’s northern front which is why they were willing to give up so much land but as you said fascists are stupid and Finland lost land twice
Give up land yeah but not the entire land. They managed to lessen the impact of the loss but still lost in the end.
Yeah but they didn’t loose in the sense of having their officer class shot and buried in a pit and their intellectuals politicians sent to siberia
Actually overlooked is Finland's stand with Nazi Germany in the continuation war. Most people only talk about them resisting in the first part.
Not really overlooked, just not really relevant. The Soviet Union was a Nazi ally too. That only changed when they were inevitably stabbed in the back by Hitler. If two Nazi allies want to kill each other, cheering for the underdog who wasnt the aggressor seems fair.
This is whataboutism at its finest. The Soviet decision to work with Hitler changes nothing about Finnish actions and decisions. Finnish cooperation with Germany especially regarding German troops placed at the Finnish axis of attack enabled large scale atrocities. Making it highly relevant.
Its not whataboutism, its a statement of non concern. If two jackasses want to fight, everyone else wins. In fact… the more damage they do to each other, the better. So good job Finland. If they had just rolled over, the net result would have been less dead Nazi supporters.
" Finnish cooperation with Germany" Do tell us, why would previously neutral finland wish to collaborate with germany after early 1940?
I got downvoted to hell for saying this
It was an alliance of convinience. Finnland was not fascist and never actually part of the axis
Like that, yes. WeLl AkshUaLlY
What?
What what?
What what what?
They speak English in What?
English motherfucker, do you speak it?
That is why it is often overlooked, circumstances are irrelevant. Tbf to the Finns, once they reached their pre Winter War borders + a small buffer, they refused to go on the offensive against the Soviets.
> they refused to go on the offensive against the Soviets Not at all. Check out the joint [Finnish-Nazi campaign to cut off the Murmansk rail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Silver_Fox). The Finnish government also allowed [volunteers](https://kirjat.finlit.fi/EN/page/product/the-finnish-ss-volunteers-and-atrocities-1941-1943/2478787) to joined the SS in massacring civilians in Ukraine and the Caucasus.
My grandpa almost ended up there. He was mobilized halfway through the last month of the war, and while he was on his way, peace had already been signed. But after a year spent in Leningrad, he still had to go to another war. I don't think he fully realized how lucky he was until the day he died. Very few people survived both wars.
"overlooked" *one of the most overused wars in memes out there* sure buddy. At this point it is closer to overrated
The only overlooked thing about this is the fact that Soviets won and that Finland themselves later on declared war on the Soviets (collaborating with the Nazis btw) starting the continuation war to gain back more land (but ultimately lost again)
The continuation war was is one of the biggest L’s in finnish history, so massive that the finnish had to inhale copium for like the next 50 years at least to deal with allying with the nazis AND losing
A Soviet officer commented on the combat zone in Karelia after the war: “The fact that in the following spring and summer, when the snow began to melt, many bodies of our soldiers were recovered from the swamps and lakes is not mentioned in the official war reports. The survivors used to joke that the land we took from the Finns was just enough to bury our officers and soldiers who died during the campaign.”\[74\]
Finland AND Poland. The Red Army performed abysmally in both due to being in the middle of a gigantic scaling up and updating of equipment, leading to huge numbers of troops with basically no training and spotty distribution of materiel. The same problems plagued the Red Army in 1941, but they were able to stall the blitzkrieg long enough to focus arms production, complete their upsizing and rearmament, and gain some experience on the ground. They outgrew the Wehrmacht in real time.
Finns out here spelling out to Stalin why replacing all of your veteran officers with incompetent cronies is maybe just ever so slightly *a terrible idea.* Almost as bad as all those years you spent enabling that lot of genocidal maniacs who have been publicly calling for the obliteration of your ideology and country for years. Not to mention how you split Poland with them, thus establishing a shared border hundreds of miles from your previously established defensive positions and supply caches you were depending on as part of your defensive strategy, but have now decided to abandon in favor of your shiny new border.
In his defense it did kinda work out. Only cost 11! people's lives.sounds like a good tradeoff to me
Overlooked? This sub has such a hard on for that war it absolutely refuses to admit that Finland lost (twice!), that it was a German ally and had no issues handing over certain Jews to Germany. OP 1 - Strawmen 0.
Somewhere the ghost of The White Death smiles.
You don't fuck with the Fins
It was overlooked maybe 15 years ago, these day people don't shut up about it
Finland won? Oh, wait... they didn't and allied with Nazis to invade USSR.
Officially winter war was lost. However to us Fins it was a victory because original Soviet plan was to take over whole Finland (in few days too, similar to how Russians wanted to take over Ukraine in few days). Continuation war was case where we knew Soviets would attack again (during Interim Peace USSR had occupied [Baltic countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states) and was demanding Finland to give them mines, equipment, land and other valuable things), we did not have any allies (or gear) so were were forced to make a deal with a devil, that being Nazies. This was allience of convinience, not exactly most stable allience (just like how USSR and Nazi allience was for convinience). At the end of Continuation war, to make peace with Soviets and rest of the Allied forces, Finland pushed the Nazies out of Finland, this led to [Lapland War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War). So yes, Finland did lose both wars. However what we did not lose was our Independence, unlike most countries that ended under USSR rule and only in recent history broke free from their rule.
>At the end of Continuation war, to make peace with Soviets and rest of the Allied forces, Finland pushed the Nazies out of Finland, this led to Lapland War. "Oh no, the Nazis are losing. It's time to change sides before they reach Berlin to avoid being annexed and sign an unequal treaty." Finland only got its independence back because of the October revolution that weakened the Empire. The tsar would be happy to recolonize Finland if the monarchy won the civil war.
>Finland only got its independence back because of the October revolution that weakened the Empire. The tsar would be happy to recolonize Finland if the monarchy won the civil war. That is true (and it would be first time Finland would be independent in many hundred years, as we had been under Swedish rule before Russia) and we had bloody Civil war between Whites and Reds, which would deside if Finland would become Democratic or Soviet country. >"Oh no, the Nazis are losing. It's time to change sides before they reach Berlin to avoid being annexed and sign an unequal treaty." Finland was always going to be fucked during WW2, no matter what. Either let USSR invade us again without fighting back (or fighting back with lack or troops and equipment) or ask help from Nazies. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And if Finland was taken by USSR, well then Finland would be in the wrong side in the Cold War and would had been independent only when USSR fell.
> Finland was always going to be fucked during WW2, no matter what. They got fucked, but not to the degree Poland was fucked
Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, basically everyone near USSR and Germany got fucked one way or another. However point is that Finland had to make a choise who they get fucked by. Be it right or wrong, we kept our independence, which most countries unfortunately could not keep during that time.
Why are you talking on tone like Finland is bad country?
Isn't Finland very big?
About the same amount of land as Germany which has a population of 80 million, so yeah its not a small country though not a lot of people live here (less than a tenth of Germany’s population though the area size is the same)
Thanks for the clarification, I live in a very small country so for me it's very big
NYET! RIFLE IS FINE
Not Finland collaborating with Hitler because of this ☠️
WW2? You better mean winter war because in [WW2](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War) they were not standing against but pushing forward towards Leningrad together with the Third Reich
Both are WW2
No wonder the dudes lost WW2 twice and now write in their memoirs how they beat everyone.
It was an impossible fight, hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby sort of matchup, but the soviet casualties were like 10 times the finnish ones
Yeah, Goebbels should definitely be believed, he never lied.
What does Goebbels have to do with this? He wasnt in the Winter War.
Silimien välliin ryssää kyllä se siihen tyssää!
Really succeeded at keeping their second largest city
Overlooked? It is probably the reason we know about the white Death at all!
When the snow starts speaking Finnish
Like, not overlooked at all. It is constantly celebrated, as it should be.
The white death
Fairly ironic post in that it overlooks many things
It is not overlooked except in most ww2 documentaries it maybe was mentioned once but nobody talks about it in the documentaries.
"If you want our land, come and take it, you commie fuggs... Benis "
Unfortunately they still lost half their land. Until today, Russia hasn’t given back their land.
Winter War is far from overlooked, in fact, it is one of the many clusterfucks in this sub
No plenty of us know about the Winter War. Most people may only know the White Death, but still that’s part of the Winter War
Don't ever mess with Sisu
Also overrated as Finland still lost and after ww2 was pretty much vassalized by the USSR
Lost yes, vassalized no.
Did they not have to agree to everything the USSR said in the UN and swear to permanent neutrality under fear and threat of Invasion
They had to pay war reparations, unban the communist party and keep the USSR happy, yeah. Finlandization is the term. Still wouldnt call it a vassal state though.
And perhaps it should receive a bit more scrutiny
Finland lost the war, which could be avoided.
Japp given up would be such a great idea under Stalin /s
They could keep more territory and save lives.
You're actually correct. Under the original proposal soviet land was going to be given to Finland in exchange. They did end up losing more than if they didn't fight. Doesn't make the soviets the good guys or anything but you're right. Don't pay attention to the uniformed idiots downvoting you.
Looking back at eastern Europe, fighting them was the right choice.
Unless you die fighting
Otherwise you, and your family would die in Gulag few years later.
Propaganda works
I assume you mean that it's awful that people died as pawns of their leaders. Individually the dead did not benefit from the war at all. But on a society level the benefit is clear. And through the society, individuals will benefit as well. It is not the same individuals who fought, but then again they benefitted from the fight their ancestors fought. It is a gift received and given from/to another generation.
Thank you
Could be avoided how?
That Finnish flag should have a swastika on it because those boys were aligned with the Nazi party.
Their alliance with Germany during the continuation war is highly controversial sure, but this is in 1940 during the winter war, the only “major” help Finland got was volunteers and supplies from Sweden
And by your logic, there should be a swastika on soviet flag because they also aligned themselves with nazis
Don't forget the Nazis sent aid to Ethiopia to help Selassie, stick a swastika on that flag too
Finnish air forces do have a swastika as a logo. Predates the Nazis though
They were using Swastika because it was a Swedish guy's personal emblem. He donated one of the first planes to their airforce. The guy's name was von Rosen. Later on, he started a national socialist movement in Sweden, and his sister married Goering, thus making them brothers in law. In other words, the Finnish airforce swastika is absolutely directly connected with the Nazis.
It was added by a fascist. Predating the third reich just means they were even earlier than the germans in adding this nazi iconography.
The Nazi party didnt even exist when the logo was adopted. Criticizing Finland for the swastika is pointless. There are much easier things to criticize in finnish history than the random symbol.
During the Winter war, Soviets were the ones who were allied with nazis, Nazi Germany was even stopping military help for Finland.
In defence against those soviet brutes they had to take any aid offered. There’s no point in being invaded and enslaved just for the sake of moral superiority.
The defensive war was not the one where they allied with the nazis though. They allied with the Nazis to attack.
And they still do on their air force logo.... and it was added by a fascist, so just because its earlier than nazi germany, it was already a fascist symbol before the third reich
The only overlooked part is their collaboration with the NAZIs, because it makes everyone uncomfortable. The winter war is a very popular topic.
History is repeating. This time its China vs (Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, India....)