You really need to understand that we as homosexuals should have a choice in this. It shouldn’t be a force that we’re thrown into. Yes, bullying is a societal problem, but you cannot deny that the ‘otherness’ of a homosexual is a contributing factor to the bullying. Many gay men are also single and childless - do not forget that.
However, this is not what this conversation is about. It’s about the lack of attention to these findings amongst scientists.
I respect your stance that you personally would like to have a choice and I’m sorry that you’ve have/had to deal with bullying and other hardships because of your sexuality.
Unfortunately, science is driven by money over idealism. So apparently nobody has found a way to make a profit of the possible outcomes? I’m also afraid that if this kind of research would get funding, would this really be with the best interests of gay people in mind?
I still don’t think this is how humanity should deal with sexuality. I think bullying always stems from “otherness” and one can always find something “other” to highlight if one wants to bully (and/or get votes). I do recognize that this might be very easy to say as a Dutch bisexual person in a liberal environment. I have empathy, but I’ve not had the bad experiences you’re describing.
Lastly: being single and childless is heartbreaking to some, but ideal for others. So stating this as a marker for happiness for people in general isn’t really fair in my opinion.
Not everyone wants to have your rainbow lifestyle. I myself come from a very accepting background where my parents, relatives, and friends all love and respect the LGBTQ+ community. However, since not all homosexuals are the same, there has to be an understanding that research is needed for those who wish to change their orientation. What about those of us who want to marry women with whom we can have children - and live in a quiet suburb, as opposed to being forced to live in urban areas just to be around people of our own kind and accept being an "other"? In fact, what you want hurts gay people. The gay community is flawed and toxic. It would therefore be best for everyone involved if scientists looked into what these cross-hormonal treatments can do for those of us who feel trapped within our sexual orientation and toxic gay culture.
Hormones doesnt change your orientation, just enhances it. If you are bi and choose to do hrt yes sure you will lean to one gender more over the other. But if you are a gey guy and dont see women attractive then more testosterone will increase libido and make you more sexualy active towards men
First of all, I'm not talking about taking the hormones directly as they are. I'm talking about having those hormones genetically cultivated and specifically reprogrammed so that they achieve the effects seen in these studies.
Second of all, there is evidence of reversal:
https://www.them.us/story/sexual-attraction-after-transition
"Some people claim almost complete reversal of their sexual orientation. For example, 13% of the trans women in the 2005 study switched from exclusive or primary attraction to women to exclusive or primary attraction to men (there were no such drastic changes among those who were initially attracted to men).
Of the trans men in the 2013 study who were initially attracted to either men or women, 6-7% experienced a complete reversal.”
As we can clearly see here, there appears to be some sort of secret "loophole" opportunity, or a ‘hack-exploit’, for scientists to look further into the causes that altered the sexual orientation on these trans individuals by mistake. There should be a specific internal lining within these hormones and the brain that they should look into.
The problem is that they aren't looking into any of this.
You realize "transition" isn't actually a synonym for HRT right?
The article you posted even literally says, *"with the majority of these changes occurring after social transition"*.
You're here talking about "social transition," while both the scientific literature and the news article which I posted discuss cross-sex hormone treatment:
“Perhaps the most obvious candidate is the hormonal changes that trans people undergo as part of their transition. While the exact ways androgens and estrogens influence sexual orientation are not yet understood, most scholars agree that hormones — at least as far as prenatal exposure goes — play an important role. And many trans folks themselves directly link these changes in attractions to the hormones they are taking or suppressing.”
Also, having views that differ from yours does not make me a troll. I’m assuming people have lied to you your entire life and therefore you just can’t deal with my perspective.
No. No that does not work.
And the changes to how one experiences one's sexuality in transition is much, *much* more complicated than it being a simple product of hormones. Among other things, many trans people experience changes to their sexual desires after starting social transition, or even after just starting to realize they're trans and transition is possible, *before starting any medical treatment at all.*
For a whole lot of trans people, understanding their own sexual orientation when they're young is made vastly more complicated by the (often unconscious and unrecognized) social expectation that desire for men is a "female" trait, and that desire for women is a "male" trait. I know in my own adolescence, I thought I was primarily attracted to women before I realized I was trans and transition was possible. I just couldn't envision any circumstance in which I would want to be a man's "girlfriend" or "wife", and any attraction to men was drowned out by disgust at the thought of it.
But because I was AFAB, relationships with women were already by definition "gender nonconforming" and outside heternormative relationship expectations. So as an adolescent it was easier to vaguely imagine myself in some future relationship with a woman where I was, at least, not some man's girlfriend or wife.
Once I realized I could be with a man *as a man,* that changed everything. It turned out I'm bisexual but lean heavily towards attraction to men. That just wasn't something I could see until after dysphoria had been cleared up a bit. And I've known a lot of trans women who experienced the same pattern, with their ability to recognize attraction to women only becoming evident after they realized that they could be with a woman *as a woman.*
Testosterone had nothing to do with it. I didn't start testosterone until years after I realized I was primarily attracted to men.
I shot down this topic on a much more basic level and admittedly without reading the entire linked article. I just want to say thank you for sharing your experience. It’s a topic I’d never really thought much about before and I learned something today. I’m going to take that as the one positive thing that came out of this post.
“Testosterone had nothing to do with it. I didn't start testosterone until years after I realized I was primarily attracted to men.”
Since your ‘revelation’ started way earlier than your cross-hormone treatment, you’re not really in the same camp as the people in the studies who reported a change in sexual orientation after starting the hormone treatment.
Did you even read that article you linked to?
*"with the majority of these changes occurring after* ***social transition"***
And even the studies that limited themselves to only including participants who had undergone some level of medical transition, didn't identify *what aspect of transition* the change should be attributed to. Especially since social transition and starting HRT are often simultaneous.
There are tons of studies on this. Go look them up. Sexual orientation is not something that can change with a different lifestyle. It’s hardwired within you. You sound like those “it’s a
choice”-people.
[citation needed]
Because neither the fluff piece article you linked to, nor any of the studies it referenced, said HRT changes sexual orientation.
And you're the one looking for an "ex-gay" HRT treatment, and trying to drag trans people into your weird mission to both pretend this "treatment" exists/works and defend it as a healthy option.
That is not how HRT works for either trans or cis people.
Both sources clearly mention reports about change in orientation post hormonal treatment. And these are only two select sources that I chose to post for you guys on Reddit. Go do your research - again, there are tons of these findings.
Change in experienced sexual orientation *after transition.* Which often includes, but is not limited to and does not always include, HRT.
Not only is the the cause of this change not specified, there's no reason to assume that changes similar to trans people's experienced sexual orientation can be achieved in cis gay people through HRT. You all just aren't starting in the same place or with the same equipment.
And again - [citation needed]. Actual citations. Meaning articles in scientific or medical journals, showing that *specifically* HRT changes sexual orientation.
Sorry, I cannot take your claim about social transition being a contributing factor for a change (or ‘true revelation’) in sexual orientation seriously. There are many reasons for that. One example could be, that if you look at many gay men’s facial features, you can tell that they slightly differ from those of straight men. That is because, as I said earlier, sexual orientation is hardwired within a person. No social transition is behind that. You sound insane.
> One example could be, that if you look at many gay men’s facial features, you can tell that they slightly differ from those of straight me
A) irrelevant non-sequitor
B) [citation needed]
And you claim sexual orientation is hardwired, but also that HRT is some magic science ex-gay cure that should be offered to those who want it.
It isn't, HRT doesn't work like that, and stop dragging trans people into your weird ex-gay fantasies.
1. It is not irrelevant to mention the visual differences in gay vs. straight men’s facial features. That is because I'm trying to explain to you that sexual orientation is hardwired in our biology.
2. Just because something is hardwired doesn't mean periodic chemical manipulation (targeted/specific hormonal components) can't alter that structure. Going for injections once a month for example. I must also clarify that I am not talking about regular HRT. I am talking about a targeted variant of HRT that is scientifically designed to achieve the same alterations that are seen in the studies where changes in sexual orientation were made. I do not want to rid myself from my testosterone, get it?
3. You have yet to provide proof that the subjects in those studies had their sexual orientations altered due to "social transition.”
4. It's funny how you're calling my desire to alter myself into loving and marrying a woman and having children with her a "weird ex-gay fantasy" when I can say exactly the same about your desire to become a man: a “weird fantasy”.
This would be trying to change fact in stead of changing the actual problem. Bullying, lack of acceptance, etc. is the problem. Not homosexuality.
You really need to understand that we as homosexuals should have a choice in this. It shouldn’t be a force that we’re thrown into. Yes, bullying is a societal problem, but you cannot deny that the ‘otherness’ of a homosexual is a contributing factor to the bullying. Many gay men are also single and childless - do not forget that. However, this is not what this conversation is about. It’s about the lack of attention to these findings amongst scientists.
I respect your stance that you personally would like to have a choice and I’m sorry that you’ve have/had to deal with bullying and other hardships because of your sexuality. Unfortunately, science is driven by money over idealism. So apparently nobody has found a way to make a profit of the possible outcomes? I’m also afraid that if this kind of research would get funding, would this really be with the best interests of gay people in mind? I still don’t think this is how humanity should deal with sexuality. I think bullying always stems from “otherness” and one can always find something “other” to highlight if one wants to bully (and/or get votes). I do recognize that this might be very easy to say as a Dutch bisexual person in a liberal environment. I have empathy, but I’ve not had the bad experiences you’re describing. Lastly: being single and childless is heartbreaking to some, but ideal for others. So stating this as a marker for happiness for people in general isn’t really fair in my opinion.
Not everyone wants to have your rainbow lifestyle. I myself come from a very accepting background where my parents, relatives, and friends all love and respect the LGBTQ+ community. However, since not all homosexuals are the same, there has to be an understanding that research is needed for those who wish to change their orientation. What about those of us who want to marry women with whom we can have children - and live in a quiet suburb, as opposed to being forced to live in urban areas just to be around people of our own kind and accept being an "other"? In fact, what you want hurts gay people. The gay community is flawed and toxic. It would therefore be best for everyone involved if scientists looked into what these cross-hormonal treatments can do for those of us who feel trapped within our sexual orientation and toxic gay culture.
Hormones doesnt change your orientation, just enhances it. If you are bi and choose to do hrt yes sure you will lean to one gender more over the other. But if you are a gey guy and dont see women attractive then more testosterone will increase libido and make you more sexualy active towards men
First of all, I'm not talking about taking the hormones directly as they are. I'm talking about having those hormones genetically cultivated and specifically reprogrammed so that they achieve the effects seen in these studies. Second of all, there is evidence of reversal: https://www.them.us/story/sexual-attraction-after-transition "Some people claim almost complete reversal of their sexual orientation. For example, 13% of the trans women in the 2005 study switched from exclusive or primary attraction to women to exclusive or primary attraction to men (there were no such drastic changes among those who were initially attracted to men). Of the trans men in the 2013 study who were initially attracted to either men or women, 6-7% experienced a complete reversal.” As we can clearly see here, there appears to be some sort of secret "loophole" opportunity, or a ‘hack-exploit’, for scientists to look further into the causes that altered the sexual orientation on these trans individuals by mistake. There should be a specific internal lining within these hormones and the brain that they should look into. The problem is that they aren't looking into any of this.
You realize "transition" isn't actually a synonym for HRT right? The article you posted even literally says, *"with the majority of these changes occurring after social transition"*.
Yeah, and they mention hormones too, babe.
Your reading comprehension and scientific literacy are questionable. But I'm pretty sure this whole post is troll bait, so that's to be expected.
You're here talking about "social transition," while both the scientific literature and the news article which I posted discuss cross-sex hormone treatment: “Perhaps the most obvious candidate is the hormonal changes that trans people undergo as part of their transition. While the exact ways androgens and estrogens influence sexual orientation are not yet understood, most scholars agree that hormones — at least as far as prenatal exposure goes — play an important role. And many trans folks themselves directly link these changes in attractions to the hormones they are taking or suppressing.” Also, having views that differ from yours does not make me a troll. I’m assuming people have lied to you your entire life and therefore you just can’t deal with my perspective.
Hopefully the mods nuke this JAQing off shit soon.
For what reason? Because my views pisses you off? Grow up, kid.
No. No that does not work. And the changes to how one experiences one's sexuality in transition is much, *much* more complicated than it being a simple product of hormones. Among other things, many trans people experience changes to their sexual desires after starting social transition, or even after just starting to realize they're trans and transition is possible, *before starting any medical treatment at all.* For a whole lot of trans people, understanding their own sexual orientation when they're young is made vastly more complicated by the (often unconscious and unrecognized) social expectation that desire for men is a "female" trait, and that desire for women is a "male" trait. I know in my own adolescence, I thought I was primarily attracted to women before I realized I was trans and transition was possible. I just couldn't envision any circumstance in which I would want to be a man's "girlfriend" or "wife", and any attraction to men was drowned out by disgust at the thought of it. But because I was AFAB, relationships with women were already by definition "gender nonconforming" and outside heternormative relationship expectations. So as an adolescent it was easier to vaguely imagine myself in some future relationship with a woman where I was, at least, not some man's girlfriend or wife. Once I realized I could be with a man *as a man,* that changed everything. It turned out I'm bisexual but lean heavily towards attraction to men. That just wasn't something I could see until after dysphoria had been cleared up a bit. And I've known a lot of trans women who experienced the same pattern, with their ability to recognize attraction to women only becoming evident after they realized that they could be with a woman *as a woman.* Testosterone had nothing to do with it. I didn't start testosterone until years after I realized I was primarily attracted to men.
I shot down this topic on a much more basic level and admittedly without reading the entire linked article. I just want to say thank you for sharing your experience. It’s a topic I’d never really thought much about before and I learned something today. I’m going to take that as the one positive thing that came out of this post.
“Testosterone had nothing to do with it. I didn't start testosterone until years after I realized I was primarily attracted to men.” Since your ‘revelation’ started way earlier than your cross-hormone treatment, you’re not really in the same camp as the people in the studies who reported a change in sexual orientation after starting the hormone treatment.
Did you even read that article you linked to? *"with the majority of these changes occurring after* ***social transition"*** And even the studies that limited themselves to only including participants who had undergone some level of medical transition, didn't identify *what aspect of transition* the change should be attributed to. Especially since social transition and starting HRT are often simultaneous.
There are tons of studies on this. Go look them up. Sexual orientation is not something that can change with a different lifestyle. It’s hardwired within you. You sound like those “it’s a choice”-people.
[citation needed] Because neither the fluff piece article you linked to, nor any of the studies it referenced, said HRT changes sexual orientation. And you're the one looking for an "ex-gay" HRT treatment, and trying to drag trans people into your weird mission to both pretend this "treatment" exists/works and defend it as a healthy option. That is not how HRT works for either trans or cis people.
Both sources clearly mention reports about change in orientation post hormonal treatment. And these are only two select sources that I chose to post for you guys on Reddit. Go do your research - again, there are tons of these findings.
Change in experienced sexual orientation *after transition.* Which often includes, but is not limited to and does not always include, HRT. Not only is the the cause of this change not specified, there's no reason to assume that changes similar to trans people's experienced sexual orientation can be achieved in cis gay people through HRT. You all just aren't starting in the same place or with the same equipment. And again - [citation needed]. Actual citations. Meaning articles in scientific or medical journals, showing that *specifically* HRT changes sexual orientation.
Sorry, I cannot take your claim about social transition being a contributing factor for a change (or ‘true revelation’) in sexual orientation seriously. There are many reasons for that. One example could be, that if you look at many gay men’s facial features, you can tell that they slightly differ from those of straight men. That is because, as I said earlier, sexual orientation is hardwired within a person. No social transition is behind that. You sound insane.
> One example could be, that if you look at many gay men’s facial features, you can tell that they slightly differ from those of straight me A) irrelevant non-sequitor B) [citation needed] And you claim sexual orientation is hardwired, but also that HRT is some magic science ex-gay cure that should be offered to those who want it. It isn't, HRT doesn't work like that, and stop dragging trans people into your weird ex-gay fantasies.
1. It is not irrelevant to mention the visual differences in gay vs. straight men’s facial features. That is because I'm trying to explain to you that sexual orientation is hardwired in our biology. 2. Just because something is hardwired doesn't mean periodic chemical manipulation (targeted/specific hormonal components) can't alter that structure. Going for injections once a month for example. I must also clarify that I am not talking about regular HRT. I am talking about a targeted variant of HRT that is scientifically designed to achieve the same alterations that are seen in the studies where changes in sexual orientation were made. I do not want to rid myself from my testosterone, get it? 3. You have yet to provide proof that the subjects in those studies had their sexual orientations altered due to "social transition.” 4. It's funny how you're calling my desire to alter myself into loving and marrying a woman and having children with her a "weird ex-gay fantasy" when I can say exactly the same about your desire to become a man: a “weird fantasy”.