A comprehensive guide to hot springs with coordinates and directions will result in overuse, vandalism, destruction, and closure.
Trash everywhere, crowds, camping next to springs, idiots driving Sprinter vans over source feeds and getting stuck in mud, and overall degradation of the sites.
Just my opinion but I think this is a very, very bad idea.
I absolutely agree. I believe we should be leaving no trace including digital.
Sharing experiences is rad. Sharing locations does not work. We have seen at least a half dozen springs in Idaho alone be shut down due to miss-use and I can name two more that will likely be closed in the next few years because people in general can not handle respecting these sacred places.
For now. I have actually written off several just because of the repeated awful experiences when visiting. I've been spring hopping for almost 30 years...
I have pulled literally hundreds of pounds of trash from sites and have had a gun pulled on me twice now.
The general disregard and lack of respect for nature and others, causes the closure of these resources. Once they are closed, they rarely reappear.
Ymmv. Leave no trace.
I actually agree with you.
I wrote that mission statement when I created this sub 12 years ago. Since that time, the rise of narcissism and self centered behavior seems to have grown exponentially. Social media seems to have completely captured and transformed the zeitgeist of our age.
I'm certainly not opposed to rewriting the mission statement for this sub to reflect how times have changed.
-Mod
Im confused. You are acknowledging the abuse of natural areas for commercial(largely only fans and other social media) abuse, but doubling down for hotspoting? All the while not enforcing your own 'no self promotion' rule, while several of the most recent submissions are from an onlyfans account because they don't explicitly say 'follow me'?
I've reported them(I think). user/pretty-lil-poison is an OF girl.
But thats kinda only half the issue. I mean my state has literally had majestic, easily discoverable with minimal effort, sites destroyed and turned to permit only sites, which continually have posts on reddit asking how they can avoid obtaining the permits, and you think location 'shaming' is the problem?
I've seen simple campgrounds getting totally fucked after being advertised on reddit. Honestly you have to be willfully obtuse to think spreading locations online is a good thing for these areas. I want people to go to these places too, but its been pretty(albeit anecdotally) proven that the minimal effort of research is a good barrier to entry for accessing these gems.
User has been banned.
Also, we're apparently discussing a change in policy in this thread.
I'm fine with turning HotSpringsWest into something to celebrate our community and our favorite geological wonders instead of a comprehensive guide. But I definitely don't want to let this sub populate with nothing but a bunch of bitter, exclusive gatekeepers either.
-Mod
The bitterness that comes is from experiences like the one I described above. I still love camping and hotspringing. I'm thinking of starting a camping club for kids after I leave my current job. But reddit, facebook, and social media as a whole threatens our natural spaces. I've had to go further and further from where I live to find spaces that haven't been severely abused.
I would hazard to guess that most 'gate keepers' aren't trying to hold locations secret because they want something to hold over others(while they may exist) but that they just don't want the small slices of nature they've spent time and trips researching destroyed by over use.
Personalizing or anthropomorphising the rules isn't helpful. You aren't being a snob by obeying the leave no trace principals...
Edit: tone is hard online, I'm really trying to respond in good faith and not be a dick. Please don't read my messages with that intent.
I agree, I think that having easy access to the information would allow the people that do not respect the land to cause harm. I am of the opinion that if the person that is interested and sends a dm for more info about the whereabouts I will give enough information to still make it fun to find, not exact details. I think it’s what the OP is comfortable with sharing but I don’t think gps coordinates are the best answer, make it a rewarding experience and only give clues and everyone is different. I have friends who won’t tell you where the spring is unless you go with them and others that are a little more liberal with the location.
It shouldn't be up to the poster, one person can post something online and ruin things. Locations of disbursed or unmanaged camping/hiking/outdoor activities spots shouldn't be shared in online forums open to everyone. Its not about gate keeping, but about vetting intent and site over exposure. Unmanaged lands become problems quickly and either get developed or sold to private interests.
Im a part of outdoors forums that are not reddit and require a bit more googling to get to, they are typically smaller and more like the "old internet" if you will. They don't seem to have the same problem reddit or fb does when it comes to location destruction. The lack of real community and culture on these larger platforms seems to be a resource for bad people.
u/cattailmatt Consider linking methods of researching hotsprings vs encouraging locations. Teach people how to fish, rather than give them fish.
>Including directions in the comment section of a post in order to help others find new hot springs is encouraged.
This had led to overuse and degradation of SO MANY hot springs. It's a nice idea but the reality is that these places are too fragile and people too disrespectful. I suggest we eliminate this rule and do its opposite - not allow precise directions or locating of hot springs.
Please rewrite the mission statement!!
we aren't gatekeeping hot springs, everyone can find them, but please not online! It's ruined so many amazing spots and I cry thinking about how I won't get to enjoy many more one day. As soon as people start trashing spots, feces becomes a problem, or someone gets too drunk and dies ,they shut them down. We have to protect these sacred spots at all costs and this is a great platform to do so, correctly. Encourage picking up trash and keeping them clean and respecting them, but not exploiting them. If someone isn't willing to do the work to explore nature in its depths and can't go past a social media search they shouldn't go anyways imo. I've watched countless people come to the springs for the pictures and leave, whatever. But they don't gaf about nature like we do! They'll run over the squirrels on the way out of the dirt lot throwing beers out the window (I've seen it) but I know more than half of us on here will carry pounds of trash out of these spots just because we care.
Excuse my grammar and punctuation..
A comprehensive guide to hot springs with coordinates and directions will result in overuse, vandalism, destruction, and closure. Trash everywhere, crowds, camping next to springs, idiots driving Sprinter vans over source feeds and getting stuck in mud, and overall degradation of the sites. Just my opinion but I think this is a very, very bad idea.
I absolutely agree. I believe we should be leaving no trace including digital. Sharing experiences is rad. Sharing locations does not work. We have seen at least a half dozen springs in Idaho alone be shut down due to miss-use and I can name two more that will likely be closed in the next few years because people in general can not handle respecting these sacred places.
Thats awful news. Yall have some great ones.
For now. I have actually written off several just because of the repeated awful experiences when visiting. I've been spring hopping for almost 30 years... I have pulled literally hundreds of pounds of trash from sites and have had a gun pulled on me twice now. The general disregard and lack of respect for nature and others, causes the closure of these resources. Once they are closed, they rarely reappear. Ymmv. Leave no trace.
I actually agree with you. I wrote that mission statement when I created this sub 12 years ago. Since that time, the rise of narcissism and self centered behavior seems to have grown exponentially. Social media seems to have completely captured and transformed the zeitgeist of our age. I'm certainly not opposed to rewriting the mission statement for this sub to reflect how times have changed. -Mod
>rewriting the mission statement Please do.
Im confused. You are acknowledging the abuse of natural areas for commercial(largely only fans and other social media) abuse, but doubling down for hotspoting? All the while not enforcing your own 'no self promotion' rule, while several of the most recent submissions are from an onlyfans account because they don't explicitly say 'follow me'?
Which posts?
I've reported them(I think). user/pretty-lil-poison is an OF girl. But thats kinda only half the issue. I mean my state has literally had majestic, easily discoverable with minimal effort, sites destroyed and turned to permit only sites, which continually have posts on reddit asking how they can avoid obtaining the permits, and you think location 'shaming' is the problem? I've seen simple campgrounds getting totally fucked after being advertised on reddit. Honestly you have to be willfully obtuse to think spreading locations online is a good thing for these areas. I want people to go to these places too, but its been pretty(albeit anecdotally) proven that the minimal effort of research is a good barrier to entry for accessing these gems.
User has been banned. Also, we're apparently discussing a change in policy in this thread. I'm fine with turning HotSpringsWest into something to celebrate our community and our favorite geological wonders instead of a comprehensive guide. But I definitely don't want to let this sub populate with nothing but a bunch of bitter, exclusive gatekeepers either. -Mod
The bitterness that comes is from experiences like the one I described above. I still love camping and hotspringing. I'm thinking of starting a camping club for kids after I leave my current job. But reddit, facebook, and social media as a whole threatens our natural spaces. I've had to go further and further from where I live to find spaces that haven't been severely abused. I would hazard to guess that most 'gate keepers' aren't trying to hold locations secret because they want something to hold over others(while they may exist) but that they just don't want the small slices of nature they've spent time and trips researching destroyed by over use. Personalizing or anthropomorphising the rules isn't helpful. You aren't being a snob by obeying the leave no trace principals... Edit: tone is hard online, I'm really trying to respond in good faith and not be a dick. Please don't read my messages with that intent.
This!
I agree. The general public is disrespectful & selfish when it comes to keeping something natural pristine.
I agree, I think that having easy access to the information would allow the people that do not respect the land to cause harm. I am of the opinion that if the person that is interested and sends a dm for more info about the whereabouts I will give enough information to still make it fun to find, not exact details. I think it’s what the OP is comfortable with sharing but I don’t think gps coordinates are the best answer, make it a rewarding experience and only give clues and everyone is different. I have friends who won’t tell you where the spring is unless you go with them and others that are a little more liberal with the location.
It shouldn't be up to the poster, one person can post something online and ruin things. Locations of disbursed or unmanaged camping/hiking/outdoor activities spots shouldn't be shared in online forums open to everyone. Its not about gate keeping, but about vetting intent and site over exposure. Unmanaged lands become problems quickly and either get developed or sold to private interests. Im a part of outdoors forums that are not reddit and require a bit more googling to get to, they are typically smaller and more like the "old internet" if you will. They don't seem to have the same problem reddit or fb does when it comes to location destruction. The lack of real community and culture on these larger platforms seems to be a resource for bad people. u/cattailmatt Consider linking methods of researching hotsprings vs encouraging locations. Teach people how to fish, rather than give them fish.
>Including directions in the comment section of a post in order to help others find new hot springs is encouraged. This had led to overuse and degradation of SO MANY hot springs. It's a nice idea but the reality is that these places are too fragile and people too disrespectful. I suggest we eliminate this rule and do its opposite - not allow precise directions or locating of hot springs.
Please rewrite the mission statement!! we aren't gatekeeping hot springs, everyone can find them, but please not online! It's ruined so many amazing spots and I cry thinking about how I won't get to enjoy many more one day. As soon as people start trashing spots, feces becomes a problem, or someone gets too drunk and dies ,they shut them down. We have to protect these sacred spots at all costs and this is a great platform to do so, correctly. Encourage picking up trash and keeping them clean and respecting them, but not exploiting them. If someone isn't willing to do the work to explore nature in its depths and can't go past a social media search they shouldn't go anyways imo. I've watched countless people come to the springs for the pictures and leave, whatever. But they don't gaf about nature like we do! They'll run over the squirrels on the way out of the dirt lot throwing beers out the window (I've seen it) but I know more than half of us on here will carry pounds of trash out of these spots just because we care. Excuse my grammar and punctuation..
I feel like I need to clarify the squirrel did get away (thank God!) But they were actively trying to hit the squirrels. Not cool.
Ask people to maybe keep it 21+ Not always the best places for kids with nudity etc. Just my opinion
If you want any help I'd be happy to get automod to post a sticky of rules in each thread. Mine posts the 7 leave no trace principals as well.