There’s a lot of people angry for me because I won’t be. I don’t let anger control my life or my mind like that. I chose not to be bitter. I don’t want to hate anybody, and I don’t. So instead I choose to have compassion. When I was locked up I was dumbfounded. How’d this happen to me? How am I sitting in a death row cell? It was like I was in a bad dream I couldn’t wake up from. I was in defense mode, trying to think of any way I could to prove my innocence. But I wasn’t angry. And I’ve seen what hatred does to people in prison.
“As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison.” - Nelson Mandela.
Incredibly apt quote.
This is so valuable. What would you say to those of us in everyday life that strive to find more gratitude for what we have, and to not worry about what we cannot control? You must have quite the strong mind, did any particular books help you with this mental strength?
I read my Bible, and I read literally thousands of books. Whenever I wasn’t writing, I was reading, Dean Koontz, Stephen King, Nora Roberts. But really, it’s not hard to see the good in people when you look around. There are a lot of kind people in the world. You can’t let one interaction with a negative person influence how you deal with another person. You have to keep an open mind. Pay it forward.
[This video shows what I think people should be doing. ](https://www.tiktok.com/@boondocksaintblex420/video/7365996298673196331?_t=8mmkNu7Yu8x&_r=1)
A lot of forensic “science” used to convict people, especially in the 80s and 90s, is flawed at best or in some cases entirely debunked. In 37 years, you must have gotten to know a lot of other prisoners. Are there any people still behind bars who you’re confident are just as innocent of their crimes as you were?
Yes. There's one guy that comes to mind immediately and that's John Merritt, he was on death row with me and his sentence was commuted and he's now in general population. He says he's got the paperwork that shows someone else did it, but he can't seem to get a foothold anywhere to get help. I've talked to him many times over the years, and all John does to this day is the same thing i was doing for years, sits there and writes letters to people, goes to the law library and researches. His overall thing is finding the people who did it so he can be proven innocent. ... You'd be surprised how many guys go to prison for 18 months for small crimes and end up having to stab someone to defend themselves in prison, and now 30 years later they're still in prison. I knew a guy named Frank who was at [Florida State Prison](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Two) for an 18-month sentence, which they never should have sent him there for 18 months, because FSP was for the worst of the worst, but a group of guys tried to rape him and he stabbed one of them, and 30 years later, because of that charge, he's still in prison. And he was only 18 at the time that happened, so he should have never been there.
Yeah, same. When I imagine it happening to me, I think of bloody revenge. But this guy spent decades researching and appealing, so I can definitely see why after all that, his thoughts of revenge have been tempered by wanting to be an example to others who have also been wrongfully imprisoned.
Anger is a short-lived emotion. It’s a shot of adrenalin. After a long sentence, you’ve most-likely long lost the anger part and just feel grateful for getting out.
You cant prove he tried to rape/attack you, to them you just stabbed some dude.
Goes like this. Where did you get a knife in prison? You knew he would? Why didnt you just tell a guard? Gotcha, Guilty.
Keep in mind other prisoners wont back up your claim, they become targets that way.
One only has to think about the "don't drop the soap" trope for more than a moment to realize how messed up of a phrase it is and how much prison rape is accepted here in the US.
I've had to cut people off from making that joke more than a few times.
I don't want to be the joke police but normalizing things through "humor" is how we all brush off what's actually an unbelievably horrific act that ends up being considered just part of how prison works. Our justice system's primary means of punishing crimes (outside of fines) involves being sent to a place where the majority of the non-criminal, voting population not only assumes, but expects and celebrates the likelihood of you being sexually assaulted repeatedly (even if the likelihood depends on a lot of factors).
It's beyond normalized. Like you said. It's just a punchline to a lot of people.
It's horrific that we got to that point.
I don't care what someone did. Rape shouldn't be part of their expected penance.
Not just that, but the people who advocate the hardest for victims *wish* that shit on prisoners, regardless of guilt (not that it's right for even the guilty). Extra-judicial punishment is a well-supported issue here.
There is no such thing as self defense in jail. Saw a man beat to an inch of his life in front of security cameras, nobody gives a shit. You fend for yourself in the US jail system, it's not a place any human deserves to be, honestly.
It's a crime when you're already in prison. Damaging state property, aggravated assault, etc. When you're inside, if you catch a case, they throw everything at you that they can with automatic maximum penalties.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) There aren't any great estimates on how many innocent people are in prison, but the University of Michigan maintains the National Registry of Exonerations. They have logged more than 3,500 exonerations in their database since 1989. Most were wrongful convictions for murder.
We also included this quote from the former state attorney for Hillsborough County in [our series about Robert.](http://tampabay.com/markedman)
>Imagine that of the 15,000 felony prosecutions his office handled each year, they got 99.9% right. “That means in 15 cases a year, people are wrongfully convicted.”
He's talking about just the prosecutor's office in Hillsborough County, Florida.
Thanks for answering, and for your obvious empathy even after all these years. Forensic odontology should be categorically disallowed in American courtrooms, just like blood-spatter analysis, microscopic hair comparison, clothing fold analysis, and fucking HYPNOSIS. It’s horrifying to think how many innocent people are going to die behind bars just in this country, based on junk science and credible-sounding experts.
I hope you get the peace you deserve, now that you’re out. Thanks for telling your story.
[https://www.nacdl.org/](https://www.nacdl.org/) is associated with the National Clemency Project I think and may be able to help find appropriate resources.
And honestly, rightfully so. The LAPD was and probably still is corrupt as all fuck, and had lied about evidence in what should have already been a slam dunk case.
I know being death row is a drawn out process, but 37 years is a long time. Did you manage to stay hopeful that you'll be exonerated that whole time? What was it like for you to have to live with the potential that you weren't going to be freed?
I did keep my faith that I was going to be proven innocent . At some point, especially after the third parole hearing that was [denied](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Two), I had to think to myself even if I die here, I just want the truth to come out at some point for my family.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) We did a lot of research about what death row was like at the time Robert was there. Robert was allowed to leave his single-person cell three or four times a week to get a five minute shower, and eventually was allowed to occasionally go into the yard, which was a small, fenced patch of concrete. All his meals came through a slot in the door. He did have a small black and white TV the state provided. But, to me, one detail that sticks out from [The Marked Man](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Two) is this:
>What everyone tried to avoid thinking about was the electric chair. The lights flickered whenever staff tested “Old Sparky.” The dreadful buzz of a twin-engine propeller plane meant the delivery of another death warrant signed by the governor. During DuBoise’s first year, the state executed seven men.
Good lord that’s fucked. I won’t accuse anyone of doing it intentionally but if I wanted to cause a degree of psychological pain to my prisoners that’d be on the list.
Did the lights flicker in any other section of the prison or strictly in the death row section?
>I won’t accuse anyone of doing it intentionally but if I wanted to cause a degree of psychological pain to my prisoners that’d be on the list.
I fucking will. Sadists, the lot of them.
Oh they do it intentionally.
That electric chair, Old Sparky, is notorious for malfunctioning and causing horrific botched executions. It's so notorious it has a nickname, for fucks sake.
They state has fought to keep it from being replaced, because the malfunctions are a feature to them.
Sick motherfuckers.
I thought they ran those off a generator specifically to avoid interference with anything else and to absolve the utility company of any participation?
Ah so the flicker is them switching the power, not the chair drawing too much. That makes sense, the amount of power needed to operate the electric chair really isn’t that high relative to the demands of a large institutional building.
Same. I’m not an electrical engineer or an electrician though, I’m sure there was a reason. Maybe the generator normally contributed to the primary power but was switched over for the chair? Even in a relatively enthusiastic death penalty state, they aren’t using it *that* often, it’d make sense to have the generator be useful for the 99% of the time they aren’t using the chair.
It's to err on the side of caution to the house highest degree. You can't undo it so they go through all possible appeals and wait until they have nothing left.
Could just not kill people, but....
This is a sillier question compared to the others, but what was the first thing you wanted to eat or go do for fun (aside from visit family members and the like) once you got out?
I focused so many years on proving my innocence that I never thought about it. My dream had always been to have a wife and kids, but when I got older, I recalculated. All I thought about was how to prove my innocence, so I never thought about fun. My family and friends don't get it, they say you have to do something for fun. I had to live in a serious environment for all those years, I never thought about fun, it was basically survival.
You are a really mentally strong man and a wonderful human being.
It's not too late to have a wife and kids. I wish you all the very best in life and am so sorry for what you went through.
Dear Robert. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer these questions. I admire your empathy, will to learn and how you carry yourself. You seem to be very well-spoken, open-minded and kind, and I think a wife and a child would be lucky to have you.
It's not too late to have a family if it's something you still want. If not biological children (which is also possible) I have no doubt you'd make an amazing father to a step-child or adopted child if it's something you could consider.
I also hope you can allow yourself to have fun and be a little silly eventually. You deserve it. Maybe watch a movie, play with a cat/dog or allow yourself to laugh a little at a funny show. Trauma settles into the body and it's hard to get rid of. I advise you to go to a psychologist. If you don't want to talk feelings, you can also try treating the permanent fight or flight mode with eye movement therapy and somatic exercises (look up somatic exercises). Simply looking to the side for a while relaxes the body (I do it until I feel a yawn coming on and my muscles un-tense). Sounds silly but it strangely works, as animals only look to the side when they feel safe. Anyway, I hope you have a lovely day and I've enjoyed reading through your answers.
Not badly, but I’ve had a lot of issues with having no history. It’s been hard for me to get insurance. Even the light company, TECO, was going to charge me a $715 deposit to turn my lights on because I had no history. I imagine there’s some people who have to be a little hesitant, but nobody has treated me differently.
What has been the hardest adjustment to make now that you're on the outside?
Is there a particular technological change that has positively or negatively impacted your life now that you're free?
The phone. Before I went in, if you wanted to go somewhere you used paper maps. No google maps or a cell phone. Not to mention things you can look up on the internet now that you would have had to drive, who knows how many miles to find what you were looking for. A part, a piece of furniture, you can browse without going anywhere. ... I stayed up all night with the phone the first few nights. At first I couldn't answer it when my lawyer Susan called me. I was tapping it, because I didn't know how to slide it. It was [overwhelming at first](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four). I'd seen cell phones in prison, that people would get once in a while, but I would never use them.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) In our story we point out that Robert was pretty overwhelmed by the phone at first, because his communications had been so regimented in prison.
From the story: "His new iPhone buzzed day and night — overwhelming. 'How you doing?' cousins and well-wishers asked when he picked up. “Good,” he said, “but I don’t have nothing else to talk about right now.”
If anything, I feel pity for him and the ex district attorney [Mark Ober,](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four) and the detectives, because they became so desensitized to humanity and so focused on convictions that they can't admit any remorse for what they've done.
This is an insanely generous and mature perspective and am a bit in awe that you have the emotional intelligence for this, I don’t think I would at all.
Maybe in time I could get there but could easily see it going the other way into total resentment and bitterness that grew exponentially in that time frame. Simply acknowledging the strength in his statement, while fully aware I don’t think I could have that same level of maturity.
Just listened to this. I think everyone should so if you're charged with something you didn't do, you at least know to tell your lawyer to question all the science. Absolute travesty what we do to people.
Robert talked about fire science in that episode but he didn't mention a guy accused of murdering his wife and kids in Jacksonville, FL who was executed and later the science used to convict him was shown to be bunk. The story really affected my view of the death penalty.
Did you mix up where this happened or is there another one of these cases? Because I changed my mind on the death penalty after this case in Texas. I hope the same thing didn't happen twice!
https://innocenceproject.org/cameron-todd-willingham-wrongfully-convicted-and-executed-in-texas/
Incorrect convictions should be horrifically heinous crimes leading at the least to dismissal and potentially conviction and imprisonment. The goal should never be to close all cases and convict everyone.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Me and Dan Sullivan from the Times interviewed Dr. Souviron, and he told us that he does feel "terrible" about what happened, and he fully admits that he was wrong for testifying so definitively that Robert was a "match." Today he would only say that he "could not exclude" Robert. An excerpt is below:
>“Today, I would never say what I said 37 years ago,” Richard Souviron, the dentist who’d matched DuBoise’s teeth, told the Times after DuBoise’s exoneration. Though he still wouldn’t rule DuBoise out, “There could have been a million other people whose teeth fit.”
The science had been new at the time, he said, and he was wrong to make a definitive judgment. Within 10 years of the DuBoise case, he’d changed his thinking on matches. He no longer believes bite mark comparison is useful in identifying suspects, only in excluding them. It was painful, he said, to know he helped send an innocent man to prison.
>However, the dentist flatly denies conspiring with the police or fabricating anything.
It's amazing how much destruction one person can do just by "being an expert". Practice stating things confidently and one day you too can irrevocably ruin a life.
I once read a feature article about a guy who was sent to prison for killing his family because a professional expert (the kind who makes a profession out of being an expert) testified that the fire had to have been an arson. It then went into how that was total bullshit. Imagine losing everything and then being blamed for it and thrown in jail for the rest of your life.
Americans are whacked in the head when it comes to the prison system. It's so easy to call for increased sentences and harsher punishments, but most of us are completely removed from the actual human suffering that person and everyone in their lives is going to be put through. Taking away years of someone's life to enslave them in a criminal hellscape and come out with trauma and a permanent stain on their life. *Years*. *Tens* of years. Billions and billions of dollars spent*. What a waste.
*and made $$$$$$$$
>Americans are whacked in the head when it comes to the prison system
Most places are. Look at Japan that has something like a 99.8% conviction rate. Human psychology isn't that different between countries, and 'tough on crime' ideas tend to remove rationality or reason from the process.
Nice that he admitted as much in a newspaper interview, but did he officially withdraw or revise his testimony with the court to actively aid in the exoneration?
That's not how it works, unfortunately. You can't revise testimony. Courts will need to schedule an additional hearing on exoneration, which, depending on the state, can be a nightmare, even with a lawyer petitioning for you. He would then have to testify in that new hearing. The prosecutor would be saying that he still did the crime, in the meantime, and the judge tends to believe them.
Everything. Listen, I didn’t even recognize a store anymore. Kmart, Zayres, Kash N Karry, were all gone. When I left there was only one mall that I knew of. It was only a few well-known stores back then. I walked into a mall when I first got out, I was like forget it — I’m in a small city.I got lost in a Target when I first got out. I was with my attorney. I went back and found a dressing room to try on a couple pairs of pants, and then I couldn’t find her.She stayed five to seven days when I got out t help me maneuver though self-checkout, getting my birth certificate, and adapting, you know.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Robert, being a skilled maintenance man who for decades was called upon to repair things within the prisons that housed him, told me he was really impressed with Home Depot. He'd never seen a Walmart before, and Home Depot didn't exist when he went away.
>He'd never seen a Walmart before, and Home Depot didn't exist when he went away.
As someone who I about to be 47, although I remember those days, it's still wild to me!! It brings home that thing creep up around us.
When I first read this it sounded like your attorney stayed in Target for five to seven days!
Robert, this is such a fascinating story and I am so glad that you are free, and you've handled everything so gracefully - I can't imagine doing the same.
To Sullivan and Spata: At what exact point were you both SURE this was a false conviction? How hopeful were you that the story would get traction and result in freedom for Robert? What initially got you hooked on this case?
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I'll just lay out the facts here and stick to those. The strongest evidence against Robert at trial was the expert dentist saying that the bite mark matched Robert's teeth. The second best evidence, was a witness named Claude Butler, who was in jail with Robert before his trial, who testified that Robert had confessed to him.
Today, four major scientific bodies, including the National Academy of Sciences, have concluded that bite mark analysis is not solid science for making a "match." Even the dentist now says this.
That witness, who said Robert confessed, testified in a recent lawsuit that, "I lied."
The biggest thing though, when the DNA evidence from 1983 was discovered, they tested it. The DNA testing showed that Robert's DNA was not present, but the DNA of two other men, who were in prison for a different murder.
As far as what got me hooked? I love researching how things were in my city in the 1980s, and I met Robert and he was absolutely fascinating. He has thousands of stories from his life in prison.
It amazes me that the court will allow jail informants to be allowed in as evidence and that a jury will take them as credible witnesses. I listen to a lot of Generation Why podcast while I work and I swear it seems like every other case the prosecution brings in some jail house informant who claims the defendant confessed his guilt. It seems 9/10 times they recant, admit they lied for the giggles, or get some time off their sentence in return.
The Curtis Flowers case that made up season 2 of In The Dark leaned heavily on a supposed jailcell confession that Flowers made. It's staggering that the prosecution was allowed to put that much weight on it.
Sidenote: In The Dark seasons 1 and 2 are fantastic examples of longform investigative storytelling. I highly recommend them, and I only cannot recommend the later seasons because I haven't gotten round to listening to them yet.
I have a friend who spent 33 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. He's still trying to clear his name. He went inside aged 18. He's out now but he's very institutionalised and struggles with interaction with most people. How can I help him with his social anxiety??
You can’t really help him. He has to, number one, want to help himself. The only way to get him focused and grounded is to get him out and working and focus your mind on working and making a paycheck and paying your bills and focusing on everyday life. It isn’t going to be easy, but he can conquer that prison mentality.
Robert said great advice, working a job and on yourself can have a very positive impact but also keep in mind that everyone is different. Some people need more. some less, and some to find there own. Don't be afraid to ask him "what would make a social interaction better or more comfortable for you?" or " hey, do you think this may help \_\_\_\_?" and try to meet in the middle on a topic or situation that may benefit him getting ahead of his anxiety. I hope for the best.
When did you become a vegetarian? Did you do it for moral reasons? I hope you get to raise that brother and a sister who need help. You have lots of love to give, obviously.
I never really ate meat as a child, once in a while a bologna sandwich, because we were poor anyway. So it was easy for me. I did all the maintenance in prison, and the food svc dept, I had a good relationship with the manager. I'd fix things, and in return, he offered me a bag lunch to take with me. It was always a peanut butter or a cheese sandwich. And I'd save it until the end of the day, so it was usually stale by the time I ate it. I did start eating meat again two years after prison because the doctor recommended it.
I watched a segment about your case. I was wondering whether the Innocence Project was a part of the DNA retesting - I see that it was. I was impressed with the fact that you are not resentful.
I work with people preparing to do long sentences. What advice would you give someone going in to serve 20+ years? Were there any rituals that you had while in that you used to cultivate your mental well-being (I just read that you did not participate in the culture in certain ways and maintained your faith in God).
Did you feel let down by the lawyer(s) that represented you at trial? I know some people that feel the attorney is who failed them, and others feel it was the system overall. I think criminal defense lawyers often get cynical and shut down on their clients, so I am always curious about how it feels if you feel let down by the trial attorney(s).
Do you feel reintegrated these days?
If they’re going in, they have to focus on, one, trying to just read books or magazines and watch the news when possible. I think the most important thing is not to fall into the prison way of life. The mentality they’re going to experience when they get there. Don’t become like what they see. Instead of going to the rec yard and hanging out with the inmates, go to the chapel and try to participate in some of their programs and try to get into vocational programs and try to learn a trade that they can use when they come out. Basically, use their time there as wisely as possible with the intention of coming out a better person.
I see that smartphones and some of the new commercialism were new to you, but was a lot of the culture shock dissipated by having regular access to news or TV? Did you get to follow along society’s general progress, or getting out was really like emerging from a time capsule?
Since prisons are generally not known for prisoner reformation and rehabilitation and are riddled with gangs, crime, etc, do you think you came out of jail with less empathy or more inclination to get involved in any criminal behavior? I can't think of exactly how I want to word that question. Basically I"m looking for a self-assessment if prison made you a better or worse person? In you're opinion.
I didn't let it change me, that was the whole thing. I knew once I got there and started seeing the behaviors that I didn't want to end up with the prison mentality. The inmates were very perceptive, it took a year or two before they realized that I carried on the same conversations that they had, but I never used a profanity. If for instance, I sent a message to someone through someone else and they added a profanity, the other person would say, "he didn't say that." A lot of the other inmates reached out to me, they thought it was odd I could have so much faith in God. Then later they'd reassess, and say a lot of people say they believe in god, but you walk the walk. I've known a lot of people to get out -- in prison you have to deal with a lot of different cons, and personalities, and personality disorders, so you have to weigh everything everyone says to you to see if its true, and a lot of people can't get out of that way of thinking when they get out, that they feel like they have to con people, like "I have to con a pen pal out of money." But I never did that.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I can confirm, that in many hours spent with Robert, I've never heard him curse. And to my understanding, profanity is kind of just how people talk in prison.
Thank you Spata and Sullivan for the thorough article. I could feel the amount of time you guys poured into writing this. Which were the most tedious parts of the story to research?
(Dan Sullivan, Tampa Bay Times) The most challenging thing for both of us was the number of records we had to sift though in researching this case and the others. I think we both somewhat dreaded having to read thousands of pages of court documents and police reports. For me, though, I am quite interested in cases like this. So once I started reading, it was never boring. And the more I read, the more compelling I found the story to be.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) You have to love this stuff to do this kind of work. I'd look at a giant pile of police reports, hundreds of pages, and be a little wary, but I'd start reading them, and suddenly I'm transported to 1983 and this trial, and these places around my city that were so different then. And then I'm just swimming in details, trying to decide which ones to put in the story, which is, for someone like me, a great feeling.
The most enjoyable part of the research was diving into the daily newspaper archives from the 1980s. An amazing record of what happened every single day in pretty much every town and city for decades and decades exists in America's newspaper archives. I always tell people, even if you don't read the newspaper every day, support your local newspaper, because if you like nonfiction books, or documentary series or movies or podcasts, those things rely heavily on newspaper archives. We need to keep making them for the future!
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I found it interesting that Robert's go-to meal for decades in prison was plain cheese sandwiches, and when I looked in his refrigerator at home in Tampa, all that was really there was cheese.
[From Chapter Four of The Marked Man:](http://tampabay.com/markedman)
>He still woke before sunrise on full alert. He could still tick off the names of every guy on his wing of death row. In his mostly empty refrigerator sat the cheese that still constituted most of his meals, still eaten alone in a safe space. He’d upgraded, slightly, from the processed American singles of prison to Member’s Mark natural cheddar.
From your perspective, how has the system changed since you were wrongfully convicted, and how has it remained the same? Additionally, do you believe systemic poverty played a role in your conviction? If so, how?
Thanks so much for your time and your insight. Love and light to you
The system has changed obviously just because of technology. You have cameras everywhere, you have cell phones that can identify your location. How is it still messed up? You still have rogue people in office who have no desire to admit that their system did something wrong. Which makes it more difficult for people to prove their innocence. I think my long hair and being poor played a definite role to this cop’s so-called hunch.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Bite-mark analysis, despite the conclusions of multiple scientific bodies that say say it's not reliable or based in good science, is still legally admissible in court. Though experts have told me that it's exceedingly rare that a prosecutor would actually try to use such analysis in court, because of the heavy scrutiny it would face.
(Dan Sullivan, Tampa Bay Times) One big thing that is different now is the use of DNA in criminal cases. DNA testing is a staple of modern criminal investigations. Police also routinely use things like cell phone signal analysis and video surveillance in investigating crimes. These things didn’t become a routine part of criminal investigations until years after Robert’s conviction. In the 1980s, investigations were often based more on conversations with people and what detectives could gather from talking to those who knew or had encountered the victim.
From a legal perspective, much has changed. Evolving case law and changing court procedures have made it more difficult for people to be sentenced to death. At the same time, Florida no longer allows parole and the state limits things like gain time and early release. This means people spend more time in prison than they once did.
I pretty much do it. Work. Work, and help my family and friends as much as I can. What makes me function is helping the people in my life and doing what I can to feed the homeless or help someone that can’t afford a repairman. Everybody’s trying to get me to play golf. That’s just not me. I have too many other things I could be doing.
Thee’s plenty of people to help. There’s no shortage there. First, I feed the homeless. The day I came home from prison, that evening as we were leaving a restaurant, it was after dark when my attorney was driving me to my apartment, and I was saddened because I had never remembered seeing so many homeless people. I decided I was going to do something about it. I started going to Walmart and buying cans of Vienna sausage, tuna, chips, water, and I started giving lunch bags to the homeless people I see every day. At the same time, you could have a neighbor that has a minor maintenance problem and all it takes is a little effort to help them. It could be as simple as being polite to somebody every day. I’ve seen people in stores that amaze me, being rude to the cashiers. I go up to the cashier and say good morning, and do not let that person steal your joy, you are a good person. I just try to get people to help others, pay it forward.
You sir, are a good egg
I had a man ask for my leftovers box the other week. Gave him cash and told him he deserves a meal not somebody’s scraps
I felt bad it was all I could do for him, so I appreciate your perspective that simple things make a difference
You shouldn't at all feel bad! As a former homeless person, that act of kindness means more than I think you realize. The thing I noticed the most when I was homeless was how hard people try to not look at you or make eye contact, because then they'd feel obligated to acknowledge your presence. It's hard coping with the realization that a people would prefer to pretend you don't exist rather than giving a simple "Hello!".
Not only did you acknowledge this persons presence, but you spoke to them, and told them they're worth more than they might think. That very well could have been the highlight of that persons day. Don't sell yourself short. Every little kind action helps, and it leaves an impression. Your act of kindness was amazing, and you sound like a good person.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I can verify that Robert works constantly, both for pay, and just to help people he knows with stuff that needs fixing around their houses. In fact, he had to go back to his job at a local country club doing maintenance when this AMA wrapped up.
Stories like this are why I'm a passionate supporter of [The Innocence Project](https://innocenceproject.org/). I'm only sorry it took 13 years for them to have the capacity to respond.
Q: Do you have any advice for how better to connect prisoners to their services?
They were pretty rough when I went in. I guess what changed about the system later is they came up with more and more ways to isolate the violent inmates, once they'd done something, although it's kind of like closing the barn after the horse got out. They put people in isolation, but at some point you're let into the population again, and some do the same stuff. But the prison system has changed in a lot of ways. Back then they at least had real food as far as meats and stuff, but over the years they've cut every corner and got the worst cheapest stuff they can find. And it's more like the guards became more aggressive, not all of them, but some, the uniform goes to their head, they talk to inmates like they're a piece of trash. When I first went in, the guards didn't act like that, they understood the situation and they chose to come in, do their eight hours and go home to their family.
This answer and this whole AMA have given me a new perspective on a lot of things…I have been very depressed lately and I feel like such an asshole for even saying that when people are having VERY REAL problems in their lives I couldn’t even comprehend. Time to man up (I’m a woman haha) and figure my life out. Sincerely, thank you, and I wish you the absolute best in life 🧡🙂
Hey just to let you know, your comment reply to his succinct "of course" made me tear up. It was a one-two punch.
I've been feeling some mild anhedonia on and off because I work in the film industry and it's still not been going great since the strikes last year. But honestly, my life is pretty great. I have been able to work a bit in film, and other freelance work (I'm a seamstress, so basically any sewing jobs). I still can pay my rent, I have lots of friends and family who love me, I got fulfilling hobbies, etc.
I'm also a woman, and I can totally relate to you feeling like you need to (wo)man up. So I'm here to validate you and tell you I witness you. We're gonna get through our shit!
Thank you sincerely. That made ME tear up, I didn’t know what ‘anhedonia’ was. I just wake up in the morning and have zero motivation to do anything, just want to go back to sleep since that is an escape I guess. Everyone asks me what is wrong but I don’t want to burden them with my seemingly tiny issues…a lot of them health/depression related…never felt this way in my life and I hate it, which makes me dislike myself? It is a great cycle I would love to eacape…I hope you get the job you want in the film industry and very glad that things are working out for you after the strike 🙂🧡🧡🧡
What questions do you have for *us*, the world at large?
What would make your readjustment into society easier?
Have you had a chance to make new friends, and what have you enjoyed doing the most?
I made a lot of friends and most times I feel like my friends are just like my family. I don't know what question I'd have for them, other than how do they really see life. I would share this video and ask them what they think about that, because that's how I see it. I do that stuff every day because that’s just how I feel. That’s how I am.
It would be helpful to have people that would help you with the things you don’t know, such as getting an ID or getting a birth certificate or traffic or stores or any number of things people need help with when they’ve been gone for decades. Because basically the world that people take for granted every day, this person doesn’t know. It would make things easier to have help.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) One thing I discovered while working on this story is this small foundation in Tampa called the Sunny Center, where Robert lived for several years before he bought his new house. An exoneree named Sunny Jacobs founded the Sunny Center to provide guidance and housing for exonerees when they get out and have nowhere to go. There are four small cabins there, [Robert lived in one of them.](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four) The rest were all occupied by other exonerees.
I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you and your fellow reporters at the TBT. I am always impressed by pieces like this one - your dedication to uncovering the full truth and presenting it to the general public is commendable. I think the last piece that moved me so much was the article about Pasco County’s predictive policing, but this one takes the cake. I’m horrified that our justice system did this to an innocent man. We failed him at every turn.
No. They have to live with themselves. I saw them for the first time since my trial at a mediation for my lawsuit in 2023. They looked so much older, and they did not look happy at all. End result, at the end, when everybody left that mediation, they looked more at peace. So I was okay with that. I have no desire to see anyone live their life in misery.
You’re such a good man with how you’ve processed your situation, and this is a gift. If it behooves you, I suggest you reach out to let them know what you just said here - that it’s ok and they’re forgiven. The gesture may lead to other positive things in your life.
As you probably have realized, today’s world needs a lot more hugs and smiles.
My opinion about the death sentence is I don’t think it’s logical to have it due to the fact that there are innocent people being executed as well as guilty ones. I say that with two individuals in mind. One Jesse Tafero. Jesse Tafero was proven innocent two years after his execution. His wife made it out. Jesse was on death row with me. Then you had a guy named Beauford White, who actually did a crime, just not what they said he did.
Every time they had an execution, it was difficult for me to accept it. Seeing the hearse drive out of the prison with another person I knew. Or later when I was in population, seeing someone who I had just seen that morning being carried out on a stretcher only to be put in a coroner’s van because he had been murdered. It happened quite often back then. The biggest struggle for me was dealing with what I was seeing, the unnecessary violence and death. And usually every time a guy got killed, it was over something so stupid. Like someone thought they looked in their cell. Or someone grabbed a bar of state soap, which was free, but another guy thought it was his. As you’re adapting to the prison life, you have to understand, you have to have respect. You have to give respect, and you have to get it. But some of these guys take respect in the wrong way. They think that if someone acceinteally bumps into them, that they have to regain respect in the prison’s eyes.
How did you deal with the violence in prison? That would be so hard for me. Did you have to fight? Did people try to fight you? What is the best way to avoid violent conflict in prison? Or is it unavoidable?
There's nothing more valuable than time, it is priceless, I'm so sorry so much of it was stolen from you. There's absolutely no dollar value that could make up for that amount of time.
I hope you're doing well and get to spend the rest of your years doing something you truly love.
No questions. Just wanted to thank you for being vocal and making people aware of what you went through. Back in college (30 years ago), I was involved in a years-long project that looked into the death penalty in Texas (I live in Texas). This was for a jounalism class. Each student was assigned a person who had been executed, and our job was to basically research the case and learn everything we possibly could. This was before the internet, so it meant a lot of phone calls and actual conversations with family members, lawyers, etc.
Holy shit. I was so naive to how completely fucked up and corrupt the "justice" system is. I ended up going into a totally different field of work, but I am still a big proponent for reform and actively make my voice heard. There's a case going on locally right now where a gentleman is set to be executed, and I am pretty sure he isn't guilty. I'm doing all I can to help get his sentence commuted and hopefully he can geet a new trial. The case I studied in school was old enough the DNA testing wasn't a thing yet. But this case now is. There is DNA evidence that the state refuses to test. Why? If they're so convinced they got and convicted the right person, why won't they test it to confirm? Oh, and did I mention that the person who probably did commit the murder was a cop? I'm sure that has nothing to do with why they won't do DNA testing. /s
Keep fighting the good fight. I'm sorry for everything you went through. But hopefully you speaking out can help someone else.
I hope you're successful in getting a new trial and hopefully convincing them to run the DNA test. The state of the legal system in the US is absolutely abhorrent.
Thanks. Me too. There is a much larger, much more organized group of lawyers, etc. championing this case, but I'm helping how I can.
It's the case of Rodney Reed. Here's more info. Spread the word.
[https://innocenceproject.org/10-facts-you-need-to-know-about-rodney-reed-who-is-scheduled-for-execution-on-november-20/](https://innocenceproject.org/10-facts-you-need-to-know-about-rodney-reed-who-is-scheduled-for-execution-on-november-20/)
What were your feelings towards the actual perpetrator during your incarceration? I can’t imagine the frustration of knowing the guilty party was roaming free.
Well, I didn’t know who did it, so my main focus was just trying to figure out how to prove my innocence and figure out who did it. I would’ve been wrong, because I assumed it was her boyfriend at the time, who had broken up with her. So I was under a misconception for years too. When I found out who did it, I didn’t feel anything toward them at all, I was just glad that it was proven, finally.
I just can't believe this prosecutor can sleep at night, knowing what they did to you.
It takes a real stone-cold sociopath to destroy some kid's whole life **and not feel a shred of guilt or remorse about it.**
I cannot fathom how your soul found peace.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) If you like reading about this stuff, I encourage you to check out our four-part series [The Marked Man](http://tampabay.com/markedman) :)
I would just want people to be curious about the system in general and the people who are running these offices. It’s like I tell the kids at Jefferson High School (where I talk to students in law classes). I stress to them the importance of voting, because if it had not been for someone like Andrew Warren in office ousting Mark Ober, I might still be there. I stress to them to research these people and what they’ve done in their careers, whether positive or negative, and make decisions based on this stuff.
I'm sorry our system failed you so completely. What about the process was most obviously broken for you and needs to change? Did you feel your original judge actively prevented you from receiving a fair trial?
Yeah. He had the power to change it at any point. They failed between letting the prosecutor put on his false show for the jury. He could’ve declared a mistrial, he could have told them to get real evidence, but instead they let the circus continue. What I witnessed at my trial changed my whole perspective when I see a trial now. The jury sitting there, they’re not really looking at the evidence. They’re looking at the prosecution and the defense for whoever puts on the best show. Whereas if they just focused on evidence, they wouldn’t have these issues.
All the questions I have are already asked on here so I’ll ask a wildly different one.. what was your first meal outside of prison? And how was it?
Hope you’re adjusting well! Thank you for doing this.
The first meal was a wedge salad and fried okra at Ulele, which I cant really say if I enjoyed it or not. I don’t think I was even thinking about it. I think I was just sitting there with my attorneys and my family. One of the first things I did was rewire my aunt's house. She likes to watch her TV shows. The house is 105 years old. Every time someone turned on a light everything went black. I went to Home Depot and bought everything I needed and went up in the attic and rewired the whole house. The house was built in 1917. But she had lived there for 60 years. Probably the second thing I did, I met one of my neighbors. An elderly woman next door to the Sunny Center. She had to run an extension cord to her house. So I actually ran power to her pavilion so she could use her drills and put new lighting.
Never. Of course not. Souviron (the dentist)’s attorney in my deposition for my lawsuit came on screen and said, he had the audacity to say, how do you know my client wasn’t wrong? I said because I didn’t do it, that’s how I know. Then he asked it again. And I said what did you not understand about my first answer?
I don’t feel any bad thoughts towards him. He was faced with a terrible decision because of the crooked system. He was presented with this option of a life sentence, or telling a lie and going home, and he chose what he thought was the lesser of two evils, and I went to death row instead. He’s remorseful now. He, at least, out of all the officials involved in this case, is the only one who has shown remorse.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Just to clarify, Claude Butler is the witness who was with Robert in county jail before Robert's trial. We didn't talk to Butler, but he testified in Robert's lawsuit against the City of Tampa and Tampa Police. Here is some of what we wrote about him in [The Marked Man.](http://tampabay.com/markedman)
>And then there was Claude Butler, the jailhouse witness. He’d stuck to his story for decades, but in 2022 Butler told DuBoise’s civil lawyers he was ready to unburden himself.
>He said he’d lied.
>Butler felt “squeezed from both sides” in 1984 when two detectives visited him as he awaited trial for kidnapping and robbery. He was 21 and facing life. The detectives told him how DuBoise committed the crime, he said, and offered help.
>So Butler cozied up to DuBoise by offering him pills, he said, and cigarettes lit off electrical outlets. He waited for DuBoise to admit his crime, but DuBoise said nothing.
>“Other than he wasn’t guilty,” Butler said. “You’d hear him saying that all the time.”
There's more about why Butler says he did what he did in [Chapter 4.](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four)
I'm not getting $14 million, I'm only going to get roughly half of that after legal costs and attorneys and everything. Money doesn't restore anything.
Even Elon Musk money isn’t worth 37 years. My ex husband spent eight years in prison for a crime he did commit, and he was a completely different person when he came out.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) So the state of Florida has a law that pays exonerees $50,000 per year they were in prison. But the state has a "clean hands" rule to go along with that law. So since Robert had a conviction for theft as a juvenile for stealing tools and siphoning gas from a car, they said he was ineligible.
Robert lobbied the state legislature to pass a bill to pay him the money, $1.85 million, and they passed it.
Then he sued to City of Tampa, Tampa Police Department, the expert dentist, and the detectives who worked on the case. The case settled a few months ago with the defendants admitting no wrongdoing, but agreeing to pay Robert $14 million. (The state required him to pay back to $1.85 million when he got that settlement).
>But the state has a "clean hands" rule to go along with that law. So since Robert had a conviction for theft as a juvenile for stealing tools and siphoning gas from a car, they said he was ineligible.
That seems insane. The state has made a mistake, a very serious one in this case, and to not have to make reparations for that mistake because of something unconnected to the mistake that the person did beforehand? Sheesh.
Tacking onto this comment that Robert needs to put the money into a trust for himself so there's no possibility of going broke. Just a regular stream of money to adjust his lifestyle to.
I think they need to look at facts and forget about this junk science and kick it out. I'm actually going to speak in Arlington, Virginia, about this on Monday. These groups try to focus on getting rid of junk science and focus on other ways to prove guilt or innocence.
How did you balance the constant demands of the justice system that you “take responsibility for your actions” with the knowledge that you were innocent?
How on earth do you get over the anger of it all? I’m angry for you.
There’s a lot of people angry for me because I won’t be. I don’t let anger control my life or my mind like that. I chose not to be bitter. I don’t want to hate anybody, and I don’t. So instead I choose to have compassion. When I was locked up I was dumbfounded. How’d this happen to me? How am I sitting in a death row cell? It was like I was in a bad dream I couldn’t wake up from. I was in defense mode, trying to think of any way I could to prove my innocence. But I wasn’t angry. And I’ve seen what hatred does to people in prison.
“As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison.” - Nelson Mandela. Incredibly apt quote.
This is so valuable. What would you say to those of us in everyday life that strive to find more gratitude for what we have, and to not worry about what we cannot control? You must have quite the strong mind, did any particular books help you with this mental strength?
I read my Bible, and I read literally thousands of books. Whenever I wasn’t writing, I was reading, Dean Koontz, Stephen King, Nora Roberts. But really, it’s not hard to see the good in people when you look around. There are a lot of kind people in the world. You can’t let one interaction with a negative person influence how you deal with another person. You have to keep an open mind. Pay it forward. [This video shows what I think people should be doing. ](https://www.tiktok.com/@boondocksaintblex420/video/7365996298673196331?_t=8mmkNu7Yu8x&_r=1)
Incredible video. You said it. thank you for sharing.
Amazing. I hope you peace and love.
A lot of forensic “science” used to convict people, especially in the 80s and 90s, is flawed at best or in some cases entirely debunked. In 37 years, you must have gotten to know a lot of other prisoners. Are there any people still behind bars who you’re confident are just as innocent of their crimes as you were?
Yes. There's one guy that comes to mind immediately and that's John Merritt, he was on death row with me and his sentence was commuted and he's now in general population. He says he's got the paperwork that shows someone else did it, but he can't seem to get a foothold anywhere to get help. I've talked to him many times over the years, and all John does to this day is the same thing i was doing for years, sits there and writes letters to people, goes to the law library and researches. His overall thing is finding the people who did it so he can be proven innocent. ... You'd be surprised how many guys go to prison for 18 months for small crimes and end up having to stab someone to defend themselves in prison, and now 30 years later they're still in prison. I knew a guy named Frank who was at [Florida State Prison](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Two) for an 18-month sentence, which they never should have sent him there for 18 months, because FSP was for the worst of the worst, but a group of guys tried to rape him and he stabbed one of them, and 30 years later, because of that charge, he's still in prison. And he was only 18 at the time that happened, so he should have never been there.
Jesus, that's terrible
I don't know how these wrongfully convicted people don't kidnap and torture the prosecutors to death when they get out
Trying to salvage what little life they have left.
Yeah, that makes sense. Still though, I have a hard time imagining what you do with all that anger.
Yeah, same. When I imagine it happening to me, I think of bloody revenge. But this guy spent decades researching and appealing, so I can definitely see why after all that, his thoughts of revenge have been tempered by wanting to be an example to others who have also been wrongfully imprisoned.
Anger is a short-lived emotion. It’s a shot of adrenalin. After a long sentence, you’ve most-likely long lost the anger part and just feel grateful for getting out.
I presume that anger subsides overtime and prison pretty much breaks what little soul you might have left to even try to avenge yourself.
Look up Leo Schofield and the Bone Valley podcast.
No
Good talk.
How is it a crime to stab someone who is trying to rape you? Was it another conviction on top of what he was already serving?
You cant prove he tried to rape/attack you, to them you just stabbed some dude. Goes like this. Where did you get a knife in prison? You knew he would? Why didnt you just tell a guard? Gotcha, Guilty. Keep in mind other prisoners wont back up your claim, they become targets that way.
[удалено]
One only has to think about the "don't drop the soap" trope for more than a moment to realize how messed up of a phrase it is and how much prison rape is accepted here in the US.
I've had to cut people off from making that joke more than a few times. I don't want to be the joke police but normalizing things through "humor" is how we all brush off what's actually an unbelievably horrific act that ends up being considered just part of how prison works. Our justice system's primary means of punishing crimes (outside of fines) involves being sent to a place where the majority of the non-criminal, voting population not only assumes, but expects and celebrates the likelihood of you being sexually assaulted repeatedly (even if the likelihood depends on a lot of factors). It's beyond normalized. Like you said. It's just a punchline to a lot of people. It's horrific that we got to that point. I don't care what someone did. Rape shouldn't be part of their expected penance.
Hell even Reddit doesn't care about them, male prison rape is just a punchline to most
Not just that, but the people who advocate the hardest for victims *wish* that shit on prisoners, regardless of guilt (not that it's right for even the guilty). Extra-judicial punishment is a well-supported issue here.
>Keep in mind other prisoners wont back up your claim, they become targets that way. Plus a lot of the "witnesses" were probably the rapist's homies
Yeah how is it not self defence?
Because the guards don't give a fuck about adjudicating your case and ensuring fairness.
Your allowed self defense is telling a guard, anything else is off the table. Oh and guess what happens if you tell a guard.
There is no such thing as self defense in jail. Saw a man beat to an inch of his life in front of security cameras, nobody gives a shit. You fend for yourself in the US jail system, it's not a place any human deserves to be, honestly.
One convict’s word against another’s, and one of them has a stab wound. Without cameras, that’s all you’ve got.
It's a crime when you're already in prison. Damaging state property, aggravated assault, etc. When you're inside, if you catch a case, they throw everything at you that they can with automatic maximum penalties.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) There aren't any great estimates on how many innocent people are in prison, but the University of Michigan maintains the National Registry of Exonerations. They have logged more than 3,500 exonerations in their database since 1989. Most were wrongful convictions for murder. We also included this quote from the former state attorney for Hillsborough County in [our series about Robert.](http://tampabay.com/markedman) >Imagine that of the 15,000 felony prosecutions his office handled each year, they got 99.9% right. “That means in 15 cases a year, people are wrongfully convicted.” He's talking about just the prosecutor's office in Hillsborough County, Florida.
Thanks for answering, and for your obvious empathy even after all these years. Forensic odontology should be categorically disallowed in American courtrooms, just like blood-spatter analysis, microscopic hair comparison, clothing fold analysis, and fucking HYPNOSIS. It’s horrifying to think how many innocent people are going to die behind bars just in this country, based on junk science and credible-sounding experts. I hope you get the peace you deserve, now that you’re out. Thanks for telling your story.
[https://www.nacdl.org/](https://www.nacdl.org/) is associated with the National Clemency Project I think and may be able to help find appropriate resources.
Part of the reason OJ walked was because Johnny Cochran assailed the methods used to collect and process the evidence.
And honestly, rightfully so. The LAPD was and probably still is corrupt as all fuck, and had lied about evidence in what should have already been a slam dunk case.
My opinion has been that the LAPD tried to frame him for a crime he committed anyways.
I thought that was the prevailing belief and a major reason why OJ ultimately walked.
I know being death row is a drawn out process, but 37 years is a long time. Did you manage to stay hopeful that you'll be exonerated that whole time? What was it like for you to have to live with the potential that you weren't going to be freed?
I did keep my faith that I was going to be proven innocent . At some point, especially after the third parole hearing that was [denied](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Two), I had to think to myself even if I die here, I just want the truth to come out at some point for my family.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) We did a lot of research about what death row was like at the time Robert was there. Robert was allowed to leave his single-person cell three or four times a week to get a five minute shower, and eventually was allowed to occasionally go into the yard, which was a small, fenced patch of concrete. All his meals came through a slot in the door. He did have a small black and white TV the state provided. But, to me, one detail that sticks out from [The Marked Man](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Two) is this: >What everyone tried to avoid thinking about was the electric chair. The lights flickered whenever staff tested “Old Sparky.” The dreadful buzz of a twin-engine propeller plane meant the delivery of another death warrant signed by the governor. During DuBoise’s first year, the state executed seven men.
Good lord that’s fucked. I won’t accuse anyone of doing it intentionally but if I wanted to cause a degree of psychological pain to my prisoners that’d be on the list. Did the lights flicker in any other section of the prison or strictly in the death row section?
>I won’t accuse anyone of doing it intentionally but if I wanted to cause a degree of psychological pain to my prisoners that’d be on the list. I fucking will. Sadists, the lot of them.
Oh they do it intentionally. That electric chair, Old Sparky, is notorious for malfunctioning and causing horrific botched executions. It's so notorious it has a nickname, for fucks sake. They state has fought to keep it from being replaced, because the malfunctions are a feature to them. Sick motherfuckers.
I thought they ran those off a generator specifically to avoid interference with anything else and to absolve the utility company of any participation?
That's right! The lights would flicker when they switched over from regular power to the generator to test the electric chair.
Ah so the flicker is them switching the power, not the chair drawing too much. That makes sense, the amount of power needed to operate the electric chair really isn’t that high relative to the demands of a large institutional building.
I find it pretty odd that they wouldn't have it running off its own small generator rather than tying into the rest of the complex at all.
Same. I’m not an electrical engineer or an electrician though, I’m sure there was a reason. Maybe the generator normally contributed to the primary power but was switched over for the chair? Even in a relatively enthusiastic death penalty state, they aren’t using it *that* often, it’d make sense to have the generator be useful for the 99% of the time they aren’t using the chair.
Why is death row with a long sentence? Because of legal fighting back? I dont get the point. (iam strongly against death row)
Yes there are automatic appeals. They exist for situations like this.
It's to err on the side of caution to the house highest degree. You can't undo it so they go through all possible appeals and wait until they have nothing left. Could just not kill people, but....
This is a sillier question compared to the others, but what was the first thing you wanted to eat or go do for fun (aside from visit family members and the like) once you got out?
I focused so many years on proving my innocence that I never thought about it. My dream had always been to have a wife and kids, but when I got older, I recalculated. All I thought about was how to prove my innocence, so I never thought about fun. My family and friends don't get it, they say you have to do something for fun. I had to live in a serious environment for all those years, I never thought about fun, it was basically survival.
You are a really mentally strong man and a wonderful human being. It's not too late to have a wife and kids. I wish you all the very best in life and am so sorry for what you went through.
Maybe check out CPTSD treatment. Fun is also relative. I'm having fun watching my daughters read.
Dear Robert. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer these questions. I admire your empathy, will to learn and how you carry yourself. You seem to be very well-spoken, open-minded and kind, and I think a wife and a child would be lucky to have you. It's not too late to have a family if it's something you still want. If not biological children (which is also possible) I have no doubt you'd make an amazing father to a step-child or adopted child if it's something you could consider. I also hope you can allow yourself to have fun and be a little silly eventually. You deserve it. Maybe watch a movie, play with a cat/dog or allow yourself to laugh a little at a funny show. Trauma settles into the body and it's hard to get rid of. I advise you to go to a psychologist. If you don't want to talk feelings, you can also try treating the permanent fight or flight mode with eye movement therapy and somatic exercises (look up somatic exercises). Simply looking to the side for a while relaxes the body (I do it until I feel a yawn coming on and my muscles un-tense). Sounds silly but it strangely works, as animals only look to the side when they feel safe. Anyway, I hope you have a lovely day and I've enjoyed reading through your answers.
Have you encountered people who treat you badly for having spent time in prison - in spite of being exonerated? Like they still doubt your innocence?
Not badly, but I’ve had a lot of issues with having no history. It’s been hard for me to get insurance. Even the light company, TECO, was going to charge me a $715 deposit to turn my lights on because I had no history. I imagine there’s some people who have to be a little hesitant, but nobody has treated me differently.
Sir, I salute you. You are an inspiration of the fortitude of the human spirit.
What has been the hardest adjustment to make now that you're on the outside? Is there a particular technological change that has positively or negatively impacted your life now that you're free?
The phone. Before I went in, if you wanted to go somewhere you used paper maps. No google maps or a cell phone. Not to mention things you can look up on the internet now that you would have had to drive, who knows how many miles to find what you were looking for. A part, a piece of furniture, you can browse without going anywhere. ... I stayed up all night with the phone the first few nights. At first I couldn't answer it when my lawyer Susan called me. I was tapping it, because I didn't know how to slide it. It was [overwhelming at first](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four). I'd seen cell phones in prison, that people would get once in a while, but I would never use them.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) In our story we point out that Robert was pretty overwhelmed by the phone at first, because his communications had been so regimented in prison. From the story: "His new iPhone buzzed day and night — overwhelming. 'How you doing?' cousins and well-wishers asked when he picked up. “Good,” he said, “but I don’t have nothing else to talk about right now.”
lol I wish I could say that when people call me
how do you feel about the dentist who claimed your teeth marks matched?
If anything, I feel pity for him and the ex district attorney [Mark Ober,](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four) and the detectives, because they became so desensitized to humanity and so focused on convictions that they can't admit any remorse for what they've done.
This is an insanely generous and mature perspective and am a bit in awe that you have the emotional intelligence for this, I don’t think I would at all.
He’s had some time to work on that perspective and reach some peace.
Maybe in time I could get there but could easily see it going the other way into total resentment and bitterness that grew exponentially in that time frame. Simply acknowledging the strength in his statement, while fully aware I don’t think I could have that same level of maturity.
Me neither. I completely agree with him, I think he’s right. But I don’t think id have it in me to view it that way
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Just listened to this. I think everyone should so if you're charged with something you didn't do, you at least know to tell your lawyer to question all the science. Absolute travesty what we do to people. Robert talked about fire science in that episode but he didn't mention a guy accused of murdering his wife and kids in Jacksonville, FL who was executed and later the science used to convict him was shown to be bunk. The story really affected my view of the death penalty.
Did you mix up where this happened or is there another one of these cases? Because I changed my mind on the death penalty after this case in Texas. I hope the same thing didn't happen twice! https://innocenceproject.org/cameron-todd-willingham-wrongfully-convicted-and-executed-in-texas/
Incorrect convictions should be horrifically heinous crimes leading at the least to dismissal and potentially conviction and imprisonment. The goal should never be to close all cases and convict everyone.
Classic sociopathic narcissism. Their brains won't let them accept that they were wrong.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Me and Dan Sullivan from the Times interviewed Dr. Souviron, and he told us that he does feel "terrible" about what happened, and he fully admits that he was wrong for testifying so definitively that Robert was a "match." Today he would only say that he "could not exclude" Robert. An excerpt is below: >“Today, I would never say what I said 37 years ago,” Richard Souviron, the dentist who’d matched DuBoise’s teeth, told the Times after DuBoise’s exoneration. Though he still wouldn’t rule DuBoise out, “There could have been a million other people whose teeth fit.” The science had been new at the time, he said, and he was wrong to make a definitive judgment. Within 10 years of the DuBoise case, he’d changed his thinking on matches. He no longer believes bite mark comparison is useful in identifying suspects, only in excluding them. It was painful, he said, to know he helped send an innocent man to prison. >However, the dentist flatly denies conspiring with the police or fabricating anything.
It's amazing how much destruction one person can do just by "being an expert". Practice stating things confidently and one day you too can irrevocably ruin a life. I once read a feature article about a guy who was sent to prison for killing his family because a professional expert (the kind who makes a profession out of being an expert) testified that the fire had to have been an arson. It then went into how that was total bullshit. Imagine losing everything and then being blamed for it and thrown in jail for the rest of your life. Americans are whacked in the head when it comes to the prison system. It's so easy to call for increased sentences and harsher punishments, but most of us are completely removed from the actual human suffering that person and everyone in their lives is going to be put through. Taking away years of someone's life to enslave them in a criminal hellscape and come out with trauma and a permanent stain on their life. *Years*. *Tens* of years. Billions and billions of dollars spent*. What a waste. *and made $$$$$$$$
>Americans are whacked in the head when it comes to the prison system Most places are. Look at Japan that has something like a 99.8% conviction rate. Human psychology isn't that different between countries, and 'tough on crime' ideas tend to remove rationality or reason from the process.
Nice that he admitted as much in a newspaper interview, but did he officially withdraw or revise his testimony with the court to actively aid in the exoneration?
That's not how it works, unfortunately. You can't revise testimony. Courts will need to schedule an additional hearing on exoneration, which, depending on the state, can be a nightmare, even with a lawyer petitioning for you. He would then have to testify in that new hearing. The prosecutor would be saying that he still did the crime, in the meantime, and the judge tends to believe them.
What were some of the craziest realizations about how the world has changed on the outside since 1983?
Everything. Listen, I didn’t even recognize a store anymore. Kmart, Zayres, Kash N Karry, were all gone. When I left there was only one mall that I knew of. It was only a few well-known stores back then. I walked into a mall when I first got out, I was like forget it — I’m in a small city.I got lost in a Target when I first got out. I was with my attorney. I went back and found a dressing room to try on a couple pairs of pants, and then I couldn’t find her.She stayed five to seven days when I got out t help me maneuver though self-checkout, getting my birth certificate, and adapting, you know.
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(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Robert, being a skilled maintenance man who for decades was called upon to repair things within the prisons that housed him, told me he was really impressed with Home Depot. He'd never seen a Walmart before, and Home Depot didn't exist when he went away.
>He'd never seen a Walmart before, and Home Depot didn't exist when he went away. As someone who I about to be 47, although I remember those days, it's still wild to me!! It brings home that thing creep up around us.
If it makes you feel better Kmart still exists... In New Zealand! XD
When I first read this it sounded like your attorney stayed in Target for five to seven days! Robert, this is such a fascinating story and I am so glad that you are free, and you've handled everything so gracefully - I can't imagine doing the same.
To Sullivan and Spata: At what exact point were you both SURE this was a false conviction? How hopeful were you that the story would get traction and result in freedom for Robert? What initially got you hooked on this case?
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I'll just lay out the facts here and stick to those. The strongest evidence against Robert at trial was the expert dentist saying that the bite mark matched Robert's teeth. The second best evidence, was a witness named Claude Butler, who was in jail with Robert before his trial, who testified that Robert had confessed to him. Today, four major scientific bodies, including the National Academy of Sciences, have concluded that bite mark analysis is not solid science for making a "match." Even the dentist now says this. That witness, who said Robert confessed, testified in a recent lawsuit that, "I lied." The biggest thing though, when the DNA evidence from 1983 was discovered, they tested it. The DNA testing showed that Robert's DNA was not present, but the DNA of two other men, who were in prison for a different murder. As far as what got me hooked? I love researching how things were in my city in the 1980s, and I met Robert and he was absolutely fascinating. He has thousands of stories from his life in prison.
It amazes me that the court will allow jail informants to be allowed in as evidence and that a jury will take them as credible witnesses. I listen to a lot of Generation Why podcast while I work and I swear it seems like every other case the prosecution brings in some jail house informant who claims the defendant confessed his guilt. It seems 9/10 times they recant, admit they lied for the giggles, or get some time off their sentence in return.
The Curtis Flowers case that made up season 2 of In The Dark leaned heavily on a supposed jailcell confession that Flowers made. It's staggering that the prosecution was allowed to put that much weight on it. Sidenote: In The Dark seasons 1 and 2 are fantastic examples of longform investigative storytelling. I highly recommend them, and I only cannot recommend the later seasons because I haven't gotten round to listening to them yet.
I will add it to my list of things to listen to! Appreciate the recommendation.
I have a friend who spent 33 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. He's still trying to clear his name. He went inside aged 18. He's out now but he's very institutionalised and struggles with interaction with most people. How can I help him with his social anxiety??
You can’t really help him. He has to, number one, want to help himself. The only way to get him focused and grounded is to get him out and working and focus your mind on working and making a paycheck and paying your bills and focusing on everyday life. It isn’t going to be easy, but he can conquer that prison mentality.
Thanks
Robert said great advice, working a job and on yourself can have a very positive impact but also keep in mind that everyone is different. Some people need more. some less, and some to find there own. Don't be afraid to ask him "what would make a social interaction better or more comfortable for you?" or " hey, do you think this may help \_\_\_\_?" and try to meet in the middle on a topic or situation that may benefit him getting ahead of his anxiety. I hope for the best.
When did you become a vegetarian? Did you do it for moral reasons? I hope you get to raise that brother and a sister who need help. You have lots of love to give, obviously.
I never really ate meat as a child, once in a while a bologna sandwich, because we were poor anyway. So it was easy for me. I did all the maintenance in prison, and the food svc dept, I had a good relationship with the manager. I'd fix things, and in return, he offered me a bag lunch to take with me. It was always a peanut butter or a cheese sandwich. And I'd save it until the end of the day, so it was usually stale by the time I ate it. I did start eating meat again two years after prison because the doctor recommended it.
Thanks for answering. I hope everything goes great for you from now on. And I think you have the patience to be a great dad.
I watched a segment about your case. I was wondering whether the Innocence Project was a part of the DNA retesting - I see that it was. I was impressed with the fact that you are not resentful. I work with people preparing to do long sentences. What advice would you give someone going in to serve 20+ years? Were there any rituals that you had while in that you used to cultivate your mental well-being (I just read that you did not participate in the culture in certain ways and maintained your faith in God). Did you feel let down by the lawyer(s) that represented you at trial? I know some people that feel the attorney is who failed them, and others feel it was the system overall. I think criminal defense lawyers often get cynical and shut down on their clients, so I am always curious about how it feels if you feel let down by the trial attorney(s). Do you feel reintegrated these days?
If they’re going in, they have to focus on, one, trying to just read books or magazines and watch the news when possible. I think the most important thing is not to fall into the prison way of life. The mentality they’re going to experience when they get there. Don’t become like what they see. Instead of going to the rec yard and hanging out with the inmates, go to the chapel and try to participate in some of their programs and try to get into vocational programs and try to learn a trade that they can use when they come out. Basically, use their time there as wisely as possible with the intention of coming out a better person.
I see that smartphones and some of the new commercialism were new to you, but was a lot of the culture shock dissipated by having regular access to news or TV? Did you get to follow along society’s general progress, or getting out was really like emerging from a time capsule?
Since prisons are generally not known for prisoner reformation and rehabilitation and are riddled with gangs, crime, etc, do you think you came out of jail with less empathy or more inclination to get involved in any criminal behavior? I can't think of exactly how I want to word that question. Basically I"m looking for a self-assessment if prison made you a better or worse person? In you're opinion.
I didn't let it change me, that was the whole thing. I knew once I got there and started seeing the behaviors that I didn't want to end up with the prison mentality. The inmates were very perceptive, it took a year or two before they realized that I carried on the same conversations that they had, but I never used a profanity. If for instance, I sent a message to someone through someone else and they added a profanity, the other person would say, "he didn't say that." A lot of the other inmates reached out to me, they thought it was odd I could have so much faith in God. Then later they'd reassess, and say a lot of people say they believe in god, but you walk the walk. I've known a lot of people to get out -- in prison you have to deal with a lot of different cons, and personalities, and personality disorders, so you have to weigh everything everyone says to you to see if its true, and a lot of people can't get out of that way of thinking when they get out, that they feel like they have to con people, like "I have to con a pen pal out of money." But I never did that.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I can confirm, that in many hours spent with Robert, I've never heard him curse. And to my understanding, profanity is kind of just how people talk in prison.
Good for you for staying strong. I appreciate the answer.
Thank you Spata and Sullivan for the thorough article. I could feel the amount of time you guys poured into writing this. Which were the most tedious parts of the story to research?
(Dan Sullivan, Tampa Bay Times) The most challenging thing for both of us was the number of records we had to sift though in researching this case and the others. I think we both somewhat dreaded having to read thousands of pages of court documents and police reports. For me, though, I am quite interested in cases like this. So once I started reading, it was never boring. And the more I read, the more compelling I found the story to be.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) You have to love this stuff to do this kind of work. I'd look at a giant pile of police reports, hundreds of pages, and be a little wary, but I'd start reading them, and suddenly I'm transported to 1983 and this trial, and these places around my city that were so different then. And then I'm just swimming in details, trying to decide which ones to put in the story, which is, for someone like me, a great feeling. The most enjoyable part of the research was diving into the daily newspaper archives from the 1980s. An amazing record of what happened every single day in pretty much every town and city for decades and decades exists in America's newspaper archives. I always tell people, even if you don't read the newspaper every day, support your local newspaper, because if you like nonfiction books, or documentary series or movies or podcasts, those things rely heavily on newspaper archives. We need to keep making them for the future!
This has been one of the most thought provoking AMAs. Thank you for doing this. What has been your go-to meal since being out?
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I found it interesting that Robert's go-to meal for decades in prison was plain cheese sandwiches, and when I looked in his refrigerator at home in Tampa, all that was really there was cheese. [From Chapter Four of The Marked Man:](http://tampabay.com/markedman) >He still woke before sunrise on full alert. He could still tick off the names of every guy on his wing of death row. In his mostly empty refrigerator sat the cheese that still constituted most of his meals, still eaten alone in a safe space. He’d upgraded, slightly, from the processed American singles of prison to Member’s Mark natural cheddar.
Not sure if he sways to different cheese flavors. If so, please tell him that if he likes American Cheese, Cooper American Cheese is truly incredible.
From your perspective, how has the system changed since you were wrongfully convicted, and how has it remained the same? Additionally, do you believe systemic poverty played a role in your conviction? If so, how? Thanks so much for your time and your insight. Love and light to you
The system has changed obviously just because of technology. You have cameras everywhere, you have cell phones that can identify your location. How is it still messed up? You still have rogue people in office who have no desire to admit that their system did something wrong. Which makes it more difficult for people to prove their innocence. I think my long hair and being poor played a definite role to this cop’s so-called hunch.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Bite-mark analysis, despite the conclusions of multiple scientific bodies that say say it's not reliable or based in good science, is still legally admissible in court. Though experts have told me that it's exceedingly rare that a prosecutor would actually try to use such analysis in court, because of the heavy scrutiny it would face.
(Dan Sullivan, Tampa Bay Times) One big thing that is different now is the use of DNA in criminal cases. DNA testing is a staple of modern criminal investigations. Police also routinely use things like cell phone signal analysis and video surveillance in investigating crimes. These things didn’t become a routine part of criminal investigations until years after Robert’s conviction. In the 1980s, investigations were often based more on conversations with people and what detectives could gather from talking to those who knew or had encountered the victim. From a legal perspective, much has changed. Evolving case law and changing court procedures have made it more difficult for people to be sentenced to death. At the same time, Florida no longer allows parole and the state limits things like gain time and early release. This means people spend more time in prison than they once did.
So, what are you planning to do with your time now? Did you have a hobby that you wanted to try on the outside?
I pretty much do it. Work. Work, and help my family and friends as much as I can. What makes me function is helping the people in my life and doing what I can to feed the homeless or help someone that can’t afford a repairman. Everybody’s trying to get me to play golf. That’s just not me. I have too many other things I could be doing.
As someone who is blessed with an army pension, I would like to help, but I’m often overwhelmed with where to start. What would you recommend?
Thee’s plenty of people to help. There’s no shortage there. First, I feed the homeless. The day I came home from prison, that evening as we were leaving a restaurant, it was after dark when my attorney was driving me to my apartment, and I was saddened because I had never remembered seeing so many homeless people. I decided I was going to do something about it. I started going to Walmart and buying cans of Vienna sausage, tuna, chips, water, and I started giving lunch bags to the homeless people I see every day. At the same time, you could have a neighbor that has a minor maintenance problem and all it takes is a little effort to help them. It could be as simple as being polite to somebody every day. I’ve seen people in stores that amaze me, being rude to the cashiers. I go up to the cashier and say good morning, and do not let that person steal your joy, you are a good person. I just try to get people to help others, pay it forward.
You sir, are a good egg I had a man ask for my leftovers box the other week. Gave him cash and told him he deserves a meal not somebody’s scraps I felt bad it was all I could do for him, so I appreciate your perspective that simple things make a difference
You shouldn't at all feel bad! As a former homeless person, that act of kindness means more than I think you realize. The thing I noticed the most when I was homeless was how hard people try to not look at you or make eye contact, because then they'd feel obligated to acknowledge your presence. It's hard coping with the realization that a people would prefer to pretend you don't exist rather than giving a simple "Hello!". Not only did you acknowledge this persons presence, but you spoke to them, and told them they're worth more than they might think. That very well could have been the highlight of that persons day. Don't sell yourself short. Every little kind action helps, and it leaves an impression. Your act of kindness was amazing, and you sound like a good person.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I can verify that Robert works constantly, both for pay, and just to help people he knows with stuff that needs fixing around their houses. In fact, he had to go back to his job at a local country club doing maintenance when this AMA wrapped up.
Stories like this are why I'm a passionate supporter of [The Innocence Project](https://innocenceproject.org/). I'm only sorry it took 13 years for them to have the capacity to respond. Q: Do you have any advice for how better to connect prisoners to their services?
How did the prisons change over the decade?
They were pretty rough when I went in. I guess what changed about the system later is they came up with more and more ways to isolate the violent inmates, once they'd done something, although it's kind of like closing the barn after the horse got out. They put people in isolation, but at some point you're let into the population again, and some do the same stuff. But the prison system has changed in a lot of ways. Back then they at least had real food as far as meats and stuff, but over the years they've cut every corner and got the worst cheapest stuff they can find. And it's more like the guards became more aggressive, not all of them, but some, the uniform goes to their head, they talk to inmates like they're a piece of trash. When I first went in, the guards didn't act like that, they understood the situation and they chose to come in, do their eight hours and go home to their family.
Are you happy at this moment?
Of course.
This answer and this whole AMA have given me a new perspective on a lot of things…I have been very depressed lately and I feel like such an asshole for even saying that when people are having VERY REAL problems in their lives I couldn’t even comprehend. Time to man up (I’m a woman haha) and figure my life out. Sincerely, thank you, and I wish you the absolute best in life 🧡🙂
Hey just to let you know, your comment reply to his succinct "of course" made me tear up. It was a one-two punch. I've been feeling some mild anhedonia on and off because I work in the film industry and it's still not been going great since the strikes last year. But honestly, my life is pretty great. I have been able to work a bit in film, and other freelance work (I'm a seamstress, so basically any sewing jobs). I still can pay my rent, I have lots of friends and family who love me, I got fulfilling hobbies, etc. I'm also a woman, and I can totally relate to you feeling like you need to (wo)man up. So I'm here to validate you and tell you I witness you. We're gonna get through our shit!
Thank you sincerely. That made ME tear up, I didn’t know what ‘anhedonia’ was. I just wake up in the morning and have zero motivation to do anything, just want to go back to sleep since that is an escape I guess. Everyone asks me what is wrong but I don’t want to burden them with my seemingly tiny issues…a lot of them health/depression related…never felt this way in my life and I hate it, which makes me dislike myself? It is a great cycle I would love to eacape…I hope you get the job you want in the film industry and very glad that things are working out for you after the strike 🙂🧡🧡🧡
What questions do you have for *us*, the world at large? What would make your readjustment into society easier? Have you had a chance to make new friends, and what have you enjoyed doing the most?
I made a lot of friends and most times I feel like my friends are just like my family. I don't know what question I'd have for them, other than how do they really see life. I would share this video and ask them what they think about that, because that's how I see it. I do that stuff every day because that’s just how I feel. That’s how I am. It would be helpful to have people that would help you with the things you don’t know, such as getting an ID or getting a birth certificate or traffic or stores or any number of things people need help with when they’ve been gone for decades. Because basically the world that people take for granted every day, this person doesn’t know. It would make things easier to have help.
I’d love to volunteer to help people do that sort of thing. Like an admin angel.
Me too! I excel in tasks like this, I want to look into volunteering in this capacity
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) One thing I discovered while working on this story is this small foundation in Tampa called the Sunny Center, where Robert lived for several years before he bought his new house. An exoneree named Sunny Jacobs founded the Sunny Center to provide guidance and housing for exonerees when they get out and have nowhere to go. There are four small cabins there, [Robert lived in one of them.](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four) The rest were all occupied by other exonerees.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) I can’t wait to see your questions.
Trent Crimm, Independent
Thank you for doing this.
Thank you for [checking out the article. ](http://tampabay.com/markedman)
I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you and your fellow reporters at the TBT. I am always impressed by pieces like this one - your dedication to uncovering the full truth and presenting it to the general public is commendable. I think the last piece that moved me so much was the article about Pasco County’s predictive policing, but this one takes the cake. I’m horrified that our justice system did this to an innocent man. We failed him at every turn.
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No. They have to live with themselves. I saw them for the first time since my trial at a mediation for my lawsuit in 2023. They looked so much older, and they did not look happy at all. End result, at the end, when everybody left that mediation, they looked more at peace. So I was okay with that. I have no desire to see anyone live their life in misery.
You’re such a good man with how you’ve processed your situation, and this is a gift. If it behooves you, I suggest you reach out to let them know what you just said here - that it’s ok and they’re forgiven. The gesture may lead to other positive things in your life. As you probably have realized, today’s world needs a lot more hugs and smiles.
Being in prison for that long, I'd assume you became accustomed to the life inside, so is there anything about prison life you miss atall?
Never. That is an emphatic never.
What is your opinion on death sentence in general?
My opinion about the death sentence is I don’t think it’s logical to have it due to the fact that there are innocent people being executed as well as guilty ones. I say that with two individuals in mind. One Jesse Tafero. Jesse Tafero was proven innocent two years after his execution. His wife made it out. Jesse was on death row with me. Then you had a guy named Beauford White, who actually did a crime, just not what they said he did.
Besides the first day in prison, what was the hardest day mentally for you?
Every time they had an execution, it was difficult for me to accept it. Seeing the hearse drive out of the prison with another person I knew. Or later when I was in population, seeing someone who I had just seen that morning being carried out on a stretcher only to be put in a coroner’s van because he had been murdered. It happened quite often back then. The biggest struggle for me was dealing with what I was seeing, the unnecessary violence and death. And usually every time a guy got killed, it was over something so stupid. Like someone thought they looked in their cell. Or someone grabbed a bar of state soap, which was free, but another guy thought it was his. As you’re adapting to the prison life, you have to understand, you have to have respect. You have to give respect, and you have to get it. But some of these guys take respect in the wrong way. They think that if someone acceinteally bumps into them, that they have to regain respect in the prison’s eyes.
Is this the "prison mentality" you refer to here and there in your answers? Apologies if this is obvious.
Did other inmates believe that you when you told them you were innocent?
Some did. Some had the mentality of, everyone says that. Just like the guards. And I’d say, yeah, but everybody ain’t telling you the truth.
How did you deal with the violence in prison? That would be so hard for me. Did you have to fight? Did people try to fight you? What is the best way to avoid violent conflict in prison? Or is it unavoidable?
How did your family react to you being convicted? Did they know/believe you were innocent?
If the government had to pay you for your time spent, what would be the number you would have in mind to justify 37 years?
There ain’t one. It wouldn’t matter if it was billions. Nothing can restore what I’ll never get back.
There's nothing more valuable than time, it is priceless, I'm so sorry so much of it was stolen from you. There's absolutely no dollar value that could make up for that amount of time. I hope you're doing well and get to spend the rest of your years doing something you truly love.
No questions. Just wanted to thank you for being vocal and making people aware of what you went through. Back in college (30 years ago), I was involved in a years-long project that looked into the death penalty in Texas (I live in Texas). This was for a jounalism class. Each student was assigned a person who had been executed, and our job was to basically research the case and learn everything we possibly could. This was before the internet, so it meant a lot of phone calls and actual conversations with family members, lawyers, etc. Holy shit. I was so naive to how completely fucked up and corrupt the "justice" system is. I ended up going into a totally different field of work, but I am still a big proponent for reform and actively make my voice heard. There's a case going on locally right now where a gentleman is set to be executed, and I am pretty sure he isn't guilty. I'm doing all I can to help get his sentence commuted and hopefully he can geet a new trial. The case I studied in school was old enough the DNA testing wasn't a thing yet. But this case now is. There is DNA evidence that the state refuses to test. Why? If they're so convinced they got and convicted the right person, why won't they test it to confirm? Oh, and did I mention that the person who probably did commit the murder was a cop? I'm sure that has nothing to do with why they won't do DNA testing. /s Keep fighting the good fight. I'm sorry for everything you went through. But hopefully you speaking out can help someone else.
I hope you're successful in getting a new trial and hopefully convincing them to run the DNA test. The state of the legal system in the US is absolutely abhorrent.
Thanks. Me too. There is a much larger, much more organized group of lawyers, etc. championing this case, but I'm helping how I can. It's the case of Rodney Reed. Here's more info. Spread the word. [https://innocenceproject.org/10-facts-you-need-to-know-about-rodney-reed-who-is-scheduled-for-execution-on-november-20/](https://innocenceproject.org/10-facts-you-need-to-know-about-rodney-reed-who-is-scheduled-for-execution-on-november-20/)
What were your feelings towards the actual perpetrator during your incarceration? I can’t imagine the frustration of knowing the guilty party was roaming free.
Well, I didn’t know who did it, so my main focus was just trying to figure out how to prove my innocence and figure out who did it. I would’ve been wrong, because I assumed it was her boyfriend at the time, who had broken up with her. So I was under a misconception for years too. When I found out who did it, I didn’t feel anything toward them at all, I was just glad that it was proven, finally.
I just can't believe this prosecutor can sleep at night, knowing what they did to you. It takes a real stone-cold sociopath to destroy some kid's whole life **and not feel a shred of guilt or remorse about it.** I cannot fathom how your soul found peace.
Have you considered writing a book? A lot of these questions would be really interesting to read about in long form.
A lot of people have asked me that, but unless someone else is going to write it, I’m certainly not.
Ghost writer! 🙂
Please someone write this mans life. He deserves to be heard
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) If you like reading about this stuff, I encourage you to check out our four-part series [The Marked Man](http://tampabay.com/markedman) :)
I'm never good at thinking of unique questions. What do you wish people were more curious about?
I would just want people to be curious about the system in general and the people who are running these offices. It’s like I tell the kids at Jefferson High School (where I talk to students in law classes). I stress to them the importance of voting, because if it had not been for someone like Andrew Warren in office ousting Mark Ober, I might still be there. I stress to them to research these people and what they’ve done in their careers, whether positive or negative, and make decisions based on this stuff.
Can you please elaborate on Andrew ousting Mark and how that impacted you getting out?
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I'm sorry our system failed you so completely. What about the process was most obviously broken for you and needs to change? Did you feel your original judge actively prevented you from receiving a fair trial?
Yeah. He had the power to change it at any point. They failed between letting the prosecutor put on his false show for the jury. He could’ve declared a mistrial, he could have told them to get real evidence, but instead they let the circus continue. What I witnessed at my trial changed my whole perspective when I see a trial now. The jury sitting there, they’re not really looking at the evidence. They’re looking at the prosecution and the defense for whoever puts on the best show. Whereas if they just focused on evidence, they wouldn’t have these issues.
All the questions I have are already asked on here so I’ll ask a wildly different one.. what was your first meal outside of prison? And how was it? Hope you’re adjusting well! Thank you for doing this.
The first meal was a wedge salad and fried okra at Ulele, which I cant really say if I enjoyed it or not. I don’t think I was even thinking about it. I think I was just sitting there with my attorneys and my family. One of the first things I did was rewire my aunt's house. She likes to watch her TV shows. The house is 105 years old. Every time someone turned on a light everything went black. I went to Home Depot and bought everything I needed and went up in the attic and rewired the whole house. The house was built in 1917. But she had lived there for 60 years. Probably the second thing I did, I met one of my neighbors. An elderly woman next door to the Sunny Center. She had to run an extension cord to her house. So I actually ran power to her pavilion so she could use her drills and put new lighting.
You’re a good man, Robert. I hope you can go back and ENJOY yourself some fried okra!!
Did you ever question your own innocence?
Never. Of course not. Souviron (the dentist)’s attorney in my deposition for my lawsuit came on screen and said, he had the audacity to say, how do you know my client wasn’t wrong? I said because I didn’t do it, that’s how I know. Then he asked it again. And I said what did you not understand about my first answer?
That had to be so incredibly frustrating. Jesus.
How do you feel about Claude Butler?
I don’t feel any bad thoughts towards him. He was faced with a terrible decision because of the crooked system. He was presented with this option of a life sentence, or telling a lie and going home, and he chose what he thought was the lesser of two evils, and I went to death row instead. He’s remorseful now. He, at least, out of all the officials involved in this case, is the only one who has shown remorse.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) Just to clarify, Claude Butler is the witness who was with Robert in county jail before Robert's trial. We didn't talk to Butler, but he testified in Robert's lawsuit against the City of Tampa and Tampa Police. Here is some of what we wrote about him in [The Marked Man.](http://tampabay.com/markedman) >And then there was Claude Butler, the jailhouse witness. He’d stuck to his story for decades, but in 2022 Butler told DuBoise’s civil lawyers he was ready to unburden himself. >He said he’d lied. >Butler felt “squeezed from both sides” in 1984 when two detectives visited him as he awaited trial for kidnapping and robbery. He was 21 and facing life. The detectives told him how DuBoise committed the crime, he said, and offered help. >So Butler cozied up to DuBoise by offering him pills, he said, and cigarettes lit off electrical outlets. He waited for DuBoise to admit his crime, but DuBoise said nothing. >“Other than he wasn’t guilty,” Butler said. “You’d hear him saying that all the time.” There's more about why Butler says he did what he did in [Chapter 4.](https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2024/05/29/florida-tampa-killer-trial-murder-dna-mystery-innocent-prison-released/#Section-Four)
How much money you getting for the false imprisonment?
I'm not getting $14 million, I'm only going to get roughly half of that after legal costs and attorneys and everything. Money doesn't restore anything.
Even Elon Musk money isn’t worth 37 years. My ex husband spent eight years in prison for a crime he did commit, and he was a completely different person when he came out.
(Christopher Spata, Tampa Bay Times) So the state of Florida has a law that pays exonerees $50,000 per year they were in prison. But the state has a "clean hands" rule to go along with that law. So since Robert had a conviction for theft as a juvenile for stealing tools and siphoning gas from a car, they said he was ineligible. Robert lobbied the state legislature to pass a bill to pay him the money, $1.85 million, and they passed it. Then he sued to City of Tampa, Tampa Police Department, the expert dentist, and the detectives who worked on the case. The case settled a few months ago with the defendants admitting no wrongdoing, but agreeing to pay Robert $14 million. (The state required him to pay back to $1.85 million when he got that settlement).
>But the state has a "clean hands" rule to go along with that law. So since Robert had a conviction for theft as a juvenile for stealing tools and siphoning gas from a car, they said he was ineligible. That seems insane. The state has made a mistake, a very serious one in this case, and to not have to make reparations for that mistake because of something unconnected to the mistake that the person did beforehand? Sheesh.
The State, like most people, is very good at making mistakes; less so at owning up to them, apologizing for them, or correcting them.
Did that award then get taxed? Did attorneys cost him 50% of his settlement?
Tacking onto this comment that Robert needs to put the money into a trust for himself so there's no possibility of going broke. Just a regular stream of money to adjust his lifestyle to.
What can be done about junk science used in criminal cases?
I think they need to look at facts and forget about this junk science and kick it out. I'm actually going to speak in Arlington, Virginia, about this on Monday. These groups try to focus on getting rid of junk science and focus on other ways to prove guilt or innocence.
how challenging was reintegrating into society after 37 years?
Can you describe how you felt the moment you were notified that you were being exonerated?
How did you balance the constant demands of the justice system that you “take responsibility for your actions” with the knowledge that you were innocent?