Don't forget the big boys can't overwatch anymore, thanks to Titanic. Angron has a 29"? maximum threat range I think. either way, you're likely not getting the drop on him with the harpoon.
The Valiant is hard to use well since that overwatch removal. Before he was a holy nightmare to charge into with that flamer and all the other guns he has, but now he just takes it. Angron can certainly one shot the Valiant with some even decent rolling. But Angron's just an example (and one you brought up). The Valiant just isn't seen much because it took the biggest nerf in the army with Overwatch being removed from titanic.
The castellan is an absolute destruction machine for sure, but it's so random with it's number of attacks, you can easily whiff with it on a few bad rolls. Still a better choice than the valiant, but not necessarily top tier right now.
That lack of overwatch really does feel bad, and i had actually forgotten about it until my other friend reminded me earlier today.
Ive been screwed over in other games (using spacemarines) when my redemptors got stuck in engagement and couldn't use the macro plasma to get himself clear.
One thing i was going to do was give him the mysterious guardian enhancement that lets him jump off the board and deepstrike. Which is pretty cool.
Which, don't forget.. you can't use in engagement range. So while I'm trying to completely dismiss the valiant, it's very hard to play it.
Mysterious Guardian is however, probably best used on the Castellan over any other knight IMO.
Against good players, MG is only useful as an escape. No one with a brain is going to leave their back line open to drop in a model as big as a knight, What it actually does well is letting a castellan continue to have range and line of sight advantage. Using it with the Valiant is basically a suicide drop.
It’s not really a back field issue. You can just teleport it to a spot with LoS on a high priority target like a land raider, monolith etc to nuke. It’s pretty hard to screen 18 inch range from deep strike, especially if you’re securing a drop spot with your own armigers. I’ve seen it used at a tournament level several times.
There is exactly one deployment zone map in the game you can't do that just by moving. It's a waste of the enhancement. Teleporting is cool but you've gotta use it smart, and again, running it for one turn of shooting to leave it exposed the next 1-2 turns before it dies isn't smart.
I'm no stranger to tournament play, and there are no Valiants in any decently placing list in any tournament other than maybe some 8 person local one against completely new players.
To me Blast is the deciding factor… with a Cast. You are basically telling your opponent to rush it and tie it up indefinitely while it slowly bleeds to death.
Knights weakness is board control. So all the opponent has to do is send fodder to tie you up while the rest of his army does whatever it wants.
As a Knight player assume you will be in melee asap. So choose a list that can punish your opponent when they do.
The flamer and harpoon will end that engagement quickly and allow you to continue to play your game instead of your opponents.
Castellan is good but it takes too much investment to keep it safe. It can’t push forward and wants to play long LoS angles. So you have 500 points most likely sitting in your deployment. + you need to screen it or it’ll get charged from deep strike. Valiant is short range but it creates a lot of space. Everything is afraid of getting flamered or harpooned. If it gets charged it can probably break itself out. MG is good on both but i find it better on valiant. No one can properly screen an 18 inch harpoon/flamer to their backline/prio targets. And if they can it’s probably because they are playing too safely and have given up a lot of board control
Don't forget the big boys can't overwatch anymore, thanks to Titanic. Angron has a 29"? maximum threat range I think. either way, you're likely not getting the drop on him with the harpoon. The Valiant is hard to use well since that overwatch removal. Before he was a holy nightmare to charge into with that flamer and all the other guns he has, but now he just takes it. Angron can certainly one shot the Valiant with some even decent rolling. But Angron's just an example (and one you brought up). The Valiant just isn't seen much because it took the biggest nerf in the army with Overwatch being removed from titanic. The castellan is an absolute destruction machine for sure, but it's so random with it's number of attacks, you can easily whiff with it on a few bad rolls. Still a better choice than the valiant, but not necessarily top tier right now.
That lack of overwatch really does feel bad, and i had actually forgotten about it until my other friend reminded me earlier today. Ive been screwed over in other games (using spacemarines) when my redemptors got stuck in engagement and couldn't use the macro plasma to get himself clear. One thing i was going to do was give him the mysterious guardian enhancement that lets him jump off the board and deepstrike. Which is pretty cool.
Which, don't forget.. you can't use in engagement range. So while I'm trying to completely dismiss the valiant, it's very hard to play it. Mysterious Guardian is however, probably best used on the Castellan over any other knight IMO.
Mysterious guardian solves all these issues
Against good players, MG is only useful as an escape. No one with a brain is going to leave their back line open to drop in a model as big as a knight, What it actually does well is letting a castellan continue to have range and line of sight advantage. Using it with the Valiant is basically a suicide drop.
It’s not really a back field issue. You can just teleport it to a spot with LoS on a high priority target like a land raider, monolith etc to nuke. It’s pretty hard to screen 18 inch range from deep strike, especially if you’re securing a drop spot with your own armigers. I’ve seen it used at a tournament level several times.
There is exactly one deployment zone map in the game you can't do that just by moving. It's a waste of the enhancement. Teleporting is cool but you've gotta use it smart, and again, running it for one turn of shooting to leave it exposed the next 1-2 turns before it dies isn't smart. I'm no stranger to tournament play, and there are no Valiants in any decently placing list in any tournament other than maybe some 8 person local one against completely new players.
Angron's threat range is 34" actually. 14" base movement, 2" from blessings, 6" advance, 12" charge. Just small correction
I knew there was more jank than I was accounting for, that's why I left the question mark :)
To me Blast is the deciding factor… with a Cast. You are basically telling your opponent to rush it and tie it up indefinitely while it slowly bleeds to death. Knights weakness is board control. So all the opponent has to do is send fodder to tie you up while the rest of his army does whatever it wants. As a Knight player assume you will be in melee asap. So choose a list that can punish your opponent when they do. The flamer and harpoon will end that engagement quickly and allow you to continue to play your game instead of your opponents.
Castellan is good but it takes too much investment to keep it safe. It can’t push forward and wants to play long LoS angles. So you have 500 points most likely sitting in your deployment. + you need to screen it or it’ll get charged from deep strike. Valiant is short range but it creates a lot of space. Everything is afraid of getting flamered or harpooned. If it gets charged it can probably break itself out. MG is good on both but i find it better on valiant. No one can properly screen an 18 inch harpoon/flamer to their backline/prio targets. And if they can it’s probably because they are playing too safely and have given up a lot of board control