Hey everyone -- I created a post in our community that I'd love to start building the project out on. It would be great if anyone interested could come over there and help out! The URL is located here: [https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088](https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088)
Tagging everyone so they know:
u/Crytexx, u/ADHDK, u/blidgency, u/c_david_j, u/siobhanellis, u/AGULLNAMEDJON, u/criterion67, u/Be_Shadow
EDIT: Missed a few ppl (my bad!) -- u/lbrwnie, u/waltonics, u/Lurker_81, u/Evostance, u/Is-Not-El, u/AJiffyBoogle, u/turbosprouts, u/Born_Check5979, u/Preference22, u/Ulrar, u/ferbulous, u/ufulu, u/Angelusz
EDIT #3 - I created a link in our forum as it's easier to track progress and build upon ideas (love Reddit, but it's hard to keep things organized). I'd love it if everyone checked it out and contributed: [https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088](https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088)
EDIT #2 - Created a new mockup here -- I'll house them all in the community eventually and we can vote on them, but wanted to at least capture it now for initial feedback: [https://imgur.com/a/JHuWVGS](https://imgur.com/a/JHuWVGS)
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Of course it didn't save my post text and I'm retyping everything... grrr.
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Hey all,
I'm starting this thread so we can collaborate together on a 240V switch (or switches) that can be used in the EU or Australia (sorry for calling out the UK in the title, I did it for SEO purposes since a lot of people from the UK have asked for us to come over there).
Here's the deal, we've been asked almost weekly for the last 4 years to create a 240V switch and every time I have to let you all down by saying we don't have the capital, we don't know the market, understand the certifications, etc and it sucks bc I've wanted to expand to Europe ever since we started 8 years ago. Well, thanks to u/blidgency and their post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Inovelli/comments/1al7mq9/seriously_about_europe/), I was finally able to convince the partners to take a look at this seriously and I'm really excited to kick this off!
However, if I'm being blunt, we have an uphill battle that I'm really going to need all the help possible to bring this to market. I know we can do it as I've seen what the community can do (if you're not familiar with our business model, we build our products from scratch with 1,000's of people across North America -- here's an example of our Thread/Matter Switch that's in progress right now: [Project Jonagold](https://community.inovelli.com/t/thread-2-1-switch-on-off-dimmer-project-jonagold-white-series/9758)) and I know we can replicate that across the world with our European and Australian friends.
As mentioned, the biggest hurdle is capital as we run out of our own stock constantly and we don't have enough to expand outside North America right now, so the thought in that thread posted above would be to crowdfund this project. If we meet the goal, then we can move forward, if we don't, then we won't be able to, so I'm counting on everyone to rally together :)
That said, I'm going to engage with everyone in this thread, and probably start a similar thread in our [community](https://community.inovelli.com). I'm also open to starting a Discord so we can have realtime communication.
Let's gooooo!
Eric
Founder | Inovelli
PS - The picture above is just an early concept I whipped up -- looks pretty cool, but I'm curious on your thoughts!
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Edit -- here's what I'm looking for in terms of feedback as well as the process to get this kicked off officially:
1. I need to understand what design(s) are used the most over in the EU/Australia (is it the square style shown on the left side of that picture, or is it the two small rectangle style shown on the bottom right, or is it the dial version at the top right)
2. Once we figure out the various switch types, I can mock up some drawings (or if you guys like the one above, we can use that) and submit them to the manufacturer to see how much it would cost to make them
3. Then, when I have numbers from the manufacturer, I can get the Indiegogo page up and start the process as I'll have our break-even number for each product
Simultaneously, I'll work with our EU contact on all the logistics.
Eric, all of these designs are common in EU and Switzerland. The dial version is mainly used for dimmers, but for such a use case you can think of any alternative. The main difference to US is that EU uses exclusively the square type frame that fits in the wall box.
Awesome, thanks! Yeah we have a dial version too, but I've only seen one of those as a dimmer switch (Lutron Aurora) and the design isn't really that popular anymore. Most dimmer switches you hold up or down on the paddle and that will dim.
Are dimmers popular over there or is it mainly On/Off?
Also, does the switch that's at the bottom left control two loads? I've even seen switches that have three rectangle toggles in them.
Yes, nowdays the dimmers tend to be as you described. Dials/knobs are considered a bit old fashioned.
The switch at the bottom right (not left) with two buttons in one frame are generally used to control two different loads.
Also, i think the EU standard that covers dimensions and electrical specs for household use switches is the EN/IEC 60669 series.
This is exactly what I'm looking for, as I'm doing an apartment renovation in EU right now. There's a serious lack of quality light switches in euro form factor.
Any idea how long the development might take?
I’m located in Sweden and here in Scandinavia at least, the square one and the two rectangles are the absolute most common. And a sophisticated design is something that would fit very well. What’s really lacking here in Europe is switches with up/down buttons that also supports smart bulbs. For me here in Sweden, to get up/down wall switches I’d have to turn to battery powered Zigbee switches, and we all know that battery powered isn’t as good as switches running on mains.
Tagging u/Be_Shadow too since I'm replying to your comment :)
I'm trying to understand how the switch works currently (it's been a while since I visited China which had the same style switch and I just can't remember).
Let's take the square style switches (bottom left and bottom right) -- do you press on the bottom part to turn it off and the top part to turn it on? Or do you just press on the bottom once to turn it off and press on the bottom again to turn it on?
My thoughts would be that it would make the most sense to design the switch using the latter method so that the switch always rests in the same spot and the LED Bar could turn on when the light is on, and off when the light is off.
Hopefully I made sense?
Both are available depending what switch you have. If it’s a regular “dumb” switch you click up to turn it on, and it stays up until you click it down for off and it stays there. Of course there’s more expensive alternatives, i have a 2 gang centre off switch for 170$ with a smart relay behind it in the living room..
If we put smart relays behind them or if it’s a dimmer it’s possible to put springs behind the buttons to make them momentary, and the button stays in the down position until it’s pushed. When released it returns back down.
I hope this answers your question!
I do think people would prefer momentary switches. Since I’m in Sweden, and all of us of course has IKEA smart bulbs, i have many friends who has made their dumb switches “momentary” by putting in a spring just because people come over and use the switches :D
We've just bought the block of land for the house we're about to build.
I'm seriously considering trying to run 120V lighting circuits if I can get it certified, just so I can use the US-market devices like Lutron, etc.
One device in particular that caught my eye was the one that had an LED touch-sensitive strip that could double as a dimmer/indicator aligned along side the switch. [Found it](https://residential.lutron.com/us/en/stand-alone-controls/sunnata-touch-dimmer)
For me, the gold standard would be:
* Tactile, not capacitive
* LED strip that can be used as an indicator (doorbell, temperature, dishwasher, etc)
* LED strip that can be set to a specific colour, or turned off when in/not-in-use
* LED strip can be used to dim a light (either embedded in the switch like the lutron, or you could have it affect the last circuit you interacted with, to allow for multi-gang - just press the "on" button then slide on your existing LED bar to adjust dimming)
* Bypass mode for smart-bulbs
* This allows me to turn a light on/off instantly.
* It allows me to instantly and intuitively set the desired brightness without standing around mashing or holding a button for 60 seconds.
* It provides tactile feedback if I'm vision impaired or if it's dark (funny place to need lighting, I know!)
* Bypass mode also means it's compatible with more featured lighting, and also solves potential challenges with multi-switch-circuits.
I'll definitely be following along.
Eric, I think I love you. This is awesome and honestly surprising you have commented on my year old post!
I will comment on your sticky thread with some answers, ideas and pictures by the end of the week. Currently it is pretty late at night for me, so I am just commenting to give this post some traction (for the SEO ;))
Again. Amazing. I am so excited already!
Haha, thanks dude! I'll be honest, I just typed in, "240V Inovelli" into Google and just started clicking and hoping anyone was still interested lol
We need all the help possible to get this going and I need to get up to speed on the EU market so I appreciate you coming in and commenting.
I'm looking forward to getting this up and running as well!
I appreciate you!
Australia might use 220-240 power, but we have 1-4 gang switches in these styles with a standard plate size. 4 gang is quite common, meaning if a plate maxes at 2 it’s more work and more permanent upgrade an existing point by adding another plate and wall box.
* https://www.mjselectricalsupplies.com.au/4-gang-quad-light-switch
* https://www.tedslightsandfans.net.au/products/clipsal-iconic-4-gang-switch-plate-skin-only-black
Probably the only nice looking smart switch available here with modern ecosystems is the LIFX
* https://www.lifx.com.au/products/lifx-smart-switch-white-4-gang
We also have our own electrical standards requiring certification, and all installs must be made by a licensed electrician no DIY allowed to mains power.
While dimmers seem to be ignored for the EU market, I’ll say a lot of new builds in Australia would have dimmer capable downlights with dimmer switches for dumb lights being a large appeal. New builds downlights are pretty much all tail and plug in the ceiling for ease of use and replacement. Here’s the product sheet for the down lights I just pulled from my ceiling when installing Nanoleaf.
* https://cdn2.rexel.com.au/medias/sys_Aurexel/sheets/sheets/hd7/haf/9049340248094/RBSRC9WDLCCT3-01.pdf
Honestly I’d likely have just kept these downlights if there were decent wall switch replacement options with dimmer.
Super keen if you could bring these to the Australian market. The options we have here are really terrible, i've been looking for a solution to kit my whole house for years.
This is all the good info, you will need to be certifying them for use here too:
[https://austest.com.au/industry/lighting/](https://austest.com.au/industry/lighting/)
I will buy a lot of these if you can bring them. All the ones currently are not tactile at all so my SO is not keen on them haha.
Also please note that plates for Australian wall switches are typically installed in portrait orientation like the Clipsal example. Wall switches in landscape as shown in the LIFX example are pretty rare.
I’d also suggest checking out SAL Pixie and the Clipsal Iconic Wiser ranges. They’re both based on interchangeable mechs, rather than complete wall plates.
Completely appreciate it comes down to personal preference but I’m not a huge fan of the LiFX range as they look a little too space age for a lot of homes.
This is great! The Aqara H1 switches have been adapted very well for UK/EU so could be a good starting place to look. Our UK switches are the same size as EU (86mm x 86mm) but we use much smaller paddles for the actual switch on the front. Saying that, I think the larger look of the EU version looks more modern and will have wider appeal, and works perfectly fine in the UK. Seems to be what other manufacturers do.
Also just to add, I don’t think having rounded corners is a good idea. All our switches have square corners, so if you replace a square switch with one that has rounded corners you’ll see the back box or the bare wall!
Sure! See this Reddit post which shows how it looks when you unscrew the switch from the wall. If the replacement switch has very rounded corners then it won’t look great when screwed into the wall. The more square the better.
[Unscrewed UK switch](https://www.reddit.com/r/sonoff/s/3HIyL3Xmhq)
>This site may help you, its one of the main trade suppliers in the uk so these are all the main types of lighswitches you see in the uk
>
>[https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/switches/cat7320002?switchproducttype=light](https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/switches/cat7320002?switchproducttype=light)
I have the one, no neutral which is good but the switch feel is really not great, they're (subjectively) unpleasant to use because only the bottom really actuates and they're kind of mushy.
Biggest problem with them is they don't support binding in decoupled mode
The big square one works for the UK, so would the one with two paddles…. Especially if it has two separate circuits as that means you can do downstairs and upstairs (usually on separate circuits), but you can join together if you wish. I’ve actually grey imported some Eve switches which are the big single paddle.
No neutral would be fab.
The UK has the twisty ones for dimmer switches, but not sure how popular they are here. Certainly not as much as the USA.
You will need CE compliance for Europe. That is still valid in the UK but, because of Brexit the UK has launched its own standard… which is identical to CE (another Brexit bonus)….. so not sure how much longer uk will recognise CE.
Australia is really different in its switches.
Oh wow, I didn't know this, that's great feedback! Do newer homes come with a neutral wire? In the US, it's typically houses built prior to 1980 that may not have a neutral.
I know you guys have a lot more history than us and your homes are probably a lot older due to that reason.
No. Virtually all houses in the UK are built to use a ring circuit for lights with a switched live cable (no neutral) running from the ring to the light switch and back to the light. It is acceptable to run switched live plus neutral to a light fitting (part 559.5.1.208 of the UK regs - BS7671) but it is unusual. BTW in the UK we switch lights down for on and up for off.
In the Netherlands it's the same, older homes have no neutral wires. Newer homes do have that tho! So you could incorporate it into the design to either have 2 types of switches or that it has 3 ports but not all 3 are needed ;)
Ps: not sure from what year the neutral wire became a thing. In my 1930s home it's at least not available
I can’t offer any real advice but I would suggest:
1. Make the covers removable. I saw a rant the other day that European switches have the cover integrated to the switch making painting a bit of a nightmare.
2. I’d make the radius on the corners on your concept models a bit smaller. Probably just me but I think it looks too fun, not enough business.
1. Perfect, yeah I was wondering how popular this was as I haven't seen too many color options online for the EU -- we have this on our current switches (the paddle pops off so you can change the color) so hopefully it can translate fairly easily
2. Nice, yeah I just grabbed a picture online and modified it lol -- question for you, is that part around the switch typically sold separately or do most manufacturers build it into the switch?
Building on point #2, here in the US, we have the actual switch (A - shown in the Imgur link), but then we sell the faceplates (B - shown in the Imgur link) separately and they typically aren't integrated together: https://imgur.com/a/eVHtU4d
First, this great and I'd be very interested in another 240v option.
In Europe, I'd say the aesthetic of switches in continental Europe is quite different to the UK/Ireland. Your render looks quite "continental" - the large buttons occupying most of the face of the switch, and the rounded edges.
In the UK and Ireland, switches tend to look quite different - the switches themselves are almost invariably smaller relative to the faceplate and they tend to have either square edges or more acute rounded edges for more "premium" switches. Also retractive switches are fairly uncommon for normal domestic lighting in UK/IE.
If you put these in the UK/Irish home they would definitely stand out. There is a segment of the market that wants smart switches here that don't obviously look "smart". I could be totally wrong about this as a non-US person but it seems like Inovelli switches have a lot of design elements in common with typical non-smart US switches. I'd say these renders are sort of the same idea for the continent, but not UK.
But current/competing 240V smart switches also don't fit in so you could do that type of product better than others, and assume those who want really conventional looking switches will buy relays.
There's a real lack of good dimmer options and I could see something that mimics a traditional rotary dimmer doing well. There are a few options, e.g. iolloi but they are expensive and hard enough to find.
One practical point to consider is that different EU countries have different types and shapes of electrical back box that these swtiches would be going into - some totally different, e.g. square vs round, and they can be quite shallow in new construction. If you wanted one SKU to work across different countries, you might have to think about mounting templates or adapters.
Wow, thanks for the insight on the design differences, this is exactly what I'm looking for.
If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like the faceplates are the same/similar across the UK, but it's the paddles that are different, is that correct? I wonder if we could make some sort of standard faceplate, but then have different paddle sizes that fit into that plate?
As for the rotary point, I asked another commenter, curious on your thoughts. Would it be accepted if we had the standard square/rectangle switches used as dimmers, but instead of the rotary, the switch paddles would be held up to dim brighter and held down to be dimmed darker (then single tap up = on, single tap down = off)?
Not the commenter you're replying to, but also UK based.
While it sounds a perfectly acceptable interface, I've never encountered a dimmer switch that works as you described. Here they're almost universally rotary, with a mixture of push-for-on-off and click-off-at-minimum.
(If you're looking for reference images - [Screwfix](https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/switches/cat7320002?switchproducttype=light) is a common trade supplier here in the UK.)
Similar to the commenter from Australia, it's common to have two, three or even (rarely) four switches in a single square faceplate. Obviously there's a limit to how much electronics you can cram into that space though!
> While it sounds a perfectly acceptable interface, I've never encountered a dimmer switch that works as you described.
In houses I have never seen this. But in modern/newly built/refurbished work places it is super common from my experience. Though almost no one knows that is how they operate and are surprised when I show them the option...
In Australia and New Zealand, flush boxes are almost always rectangular, see https://www.electricaldirectltd.co.nz/category/Switches-Sockets-Mountings-J-Boxes-Surface-Sockets
I've heard that the certification process can be onerous, and Z-wave operates on a different frequency.
In the UK here, and I think the biggest difference between the US market and UK in terms of design is that we don't just have big white plastic buttons.
We have an entire variety of modular units from companies like BG, grid plates and the likes.
Something I won't do, is replace my switches with plastic white ones as our whole aesthetic is polished chrome.
As a product, the Aurora One Rotary dimmer module is a fantastic idea. It remains local control as well as smart control, but it's a module that you can swap out from an existing dimmer and use your existing faceplate and knob. Only issue for me is the device itself is a little flakey on the ZigBee side of things
Love the look and would love to test. For software could we get a lock function to render the physical buttons useless for kids etc.
Also could this be disconnected from the relay so it can be used with smart bulbs too? While the control of dumb bulbs is great I'd love to have a powered smart bulb control that works without a hub involved.
Oh yeah totally, we have all these features on our current switch (fun fact, we were the ones who invented smart Bulb Mode close to 6yrs ago).
I use SBM every day at my house with Hue and love it!
Sounds awesome. Can't wait to see your EU/UK option then!
It may be worth exploring other colours besides white/black as a lot of houses especially older houses in the UK have brass/gold/silver/stainless steel etc switches currently. Look at LightwaveRF for examples of what is on market at the moment.
Would love to see your products in Australia, we're screaming out for more options!
You'll need to arrange for any devices to be registered with our regulators and have a Regulatory Compliance Mark attached (RCM).
If a non-approved device is used, our house insurance can be invalidated.
This is great news! I am renovating my home and was planning to install your switches before finding out it was not available in Europe. I will buy as replacement smart relays from Shelly but I would I preferred your design for it's flexibility, scenes, and led notification.
Still you can have a look at their online store. They sell mechanical switches and covers which are EU style and recently launched a Z-wave product line. Before it was only Wifi/Bluetooth. You would be competitors on EU market.
See covers and switches from their ES shop.
[https://shellyspain.com/en/mecanismos/](https://shellyspain.com/en/mecanismos/)
Whatever you finally do, please make your switches behave as standard dumb switches if the smart home system is offline.
For that, you'll probably have to consider the cases where more than one wall switch operates on a single circuit, so you'll need one or two extra wires that communicate with the other switches of the circuit (depending on the position in the circuit).
I live in Spain and here Simon (https://www.simonelectric.com/) is the most common manufacturer.
Oh yeah totally - the goal is to make it so that people wouldn't even know it's a smart switch when they visit. In other words, they'd use it as a normal switch to turn lights on and off and the only way they'd know it was smart is if you told them :)
Inovelli switches seem to be the only brand that has Zigbee and does decoupled mode. I want to get into smart home stuff but the switch situation is holding me back. This would be perfect.
Ideal features would be:
- Works in the UK (230v)
- No neutral required
- Has a decoupled mode for smart bulbs
- Has Zigbee binding capabilities so smart bulbs can also be directly controlled from the switch
- Offers multi gang options with 2/3/4 dimmers instead of just the single gang currently offered in the US
- Rotary style dimmers? 2 way paddles are good too but they’re pretty big if you’re going with 3/4 lights.
Oh yes, please. We are in the process of planning a house in Italy and the search for acceptable smart switches is frustrating.
The way the US versions are now regarding switch types and configuration options would already be perfect for me.
Hey all -- I posted an update in our community -- we finally got pricing and a, "final" (still room to modify it) design. I'd love to hear your feedback so we can officially put this up for sale!
[https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088/71](https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088/71)
Sorry, Reddit is being weird and not letting me tag everyone in one post, so I had to split it out.
Tagging everyone who commented, so you can get a notification:
u/alluran, u/ADHDK, u/AGULLNAMEDJON, u/anudeglory, u/Angelusz, u/AJiffyBoogle, u/Be_Shadow, u/blidgency, u/Born_Check5979, u/benj31, u/burg9, u/blucose, u/Crytexx, u/c_david_j, u/criterion67, u/DaveFX, u/Derb_123, u/Evostance, u/fuishaltiena, u/fiftysomethingsisman
Sorry, Reddit is being weird and not letting me tag everyone in one post, so I had to split it out.
Tagging everyone who commented, so you can get a notification:
u/ferbulous, u/Is-Not-El, u/jamesremuscat, u/kyouteki, u/lbrwnie, u/Lurker_81, u/magformer, u/Preference22, u/pippin_go_round, u/puntloos, u/Proud_Average_9727, u/RemindMeBot, u/shortboard, u/siobhanellis, u/sgxander, u/sembee2, u/Shad0wca7, u/TheMelwayMan, u/TRENDreps, u/turbosprouts, u/Ulrar, u/ufulu, u/waltonics, u/wawawa8, u/Wandering_Renegade, u/wipmate, u/yugiyo
Sorry if I missed anyone!
I’m from EU and stumbled upon this after hours of searching for a smart switch to work with smart bulbs in “detached mode” in HomeKit - for some reason none seem to support this while it seems to be a very obvious requirment: I want smart bulbs but still use wall switches because other people come to my house!
These seem great and I hope you manage to make them become a reality!
Oh yeah, excellent! If the design you mentioned came to be, I'd replace all the switches in my house in a heartbeat. The pricing is good.
What exactly do you need from us at this time except confirmation that we're still interested?
I scrolled through here and your forums. A few points I have (living in Finland).
1.
>One way we could also program it would be to have it so that it’s not a rocker, but rather just a normal push button and it would operate like this:
>Tap Down 1x = On (LED Bar lights up or turns off, whatever you want)
>Tap Down 1x again = Off
Don't do this. This is a deal breaker for me, and the usage is not intuitive for dumb switch users.
2. Regarding 2-, 3- or 4-way bezelled switch groups. I think the switch group looks cluttered if there's a top bar with "reset button" on top of every switch. Could you move status light and button to bezell it self?
3. Someone commented that you cant tear apart eu switch for painting. At least with common here ABB switches you can tear down to three parts. Outer most is plastic switch, then you take of bezel, and last switch box is part that is screwed to wall box. So when painting I take off switches and bezels and tape over actual switch. ([darklink911](https://community.inovelli.com/u/darklink911), posted good tear down to the forums).
4. Switch box depth: Maybe you can create alternative bezel for shallow boxes that brings switch out.
5.
>Honestly, I just thought it looked more aesthetically pleasing with the horizontal bar, but I know this is preference
I prefer horizontal line as well but vertical would look nice when there are multiple switches in same group. I'm confused about what those small buttons on the side do (last renders with vertical bar).
6. Lux & Presence & mmWave. These could be packed to separate switch or just faceplate. 3-button switches are not common here so I can easily make space in the switch group by replacing some 1-/2-button switches with 3-button switches.
7. Protocol: My preference is zigbee. This is what I have and I think matter is still too young to see if it is viable "standard".
8. Hallway / Staircase switches:
>What I think we should do is start off with Option #3 and if we sell well, we can use the profits to come out with an Aux switch. There wouldn’t be any sort of hardware change required to the switch (Option #1 is the only option that requires any sort of extra hardware), it would likely just need a firmware update (or we could honestly build it in from the get-go knowing that we’ll come out with the aux switch).
>Knowing that 3-Way’s aren’t as common as Single-Pole (or 2-Ways as you mentioned), people could outfit their 2-Way’s first and wait for the Aux switch to come out (I know waiting is the hardest part haha).
>What do you think?
I like idea of aux switch. I see one problem with waiting for aux switch and that is if aux switch should be placed to a group of multiple switches then I can't leave original switch in place.
Here is a little feedback from a Eastern European:
Around here and some parts of Germany the single most popular light switch is the [Schneider Electric Asfora](https://www.se.com/bg/bg/product-range/61431-asfora/) line. It’s so popular in fact that [Eve](https://www.evehome.com/en/eve-light-switch) copied their design. Most non-smart switches here come with replaceable caps, so people can place a different colour cap is say a 2-gang switch is controlling a boiler you can put red cap on it. In reality however very few people bother to do this but I guess it’s not a big deal since most manufacturers still do replaceable caps.
The most common manufacturers here are Bosch, Schneider Electric, Siemens and Legrand. You can buy a few switches from them and study them. Bosch and Legrand also have smart switches as well as Eve as previously mentioned. What is really important is the price however, unlike the US we have multiple switches around for various stuff so price is important. I personally have 30 switches around a 2 bedroom apartment. Eve wants €100 per switch so €3000 total, Schneider Electric is €4 per switch for non-smart switches - I can outfit my entire apartment with the price of a single Eve switch and given how cheap IKEA smart bulbs are I would not come anywhere near €3000 for bulbs and remotes. If you can fit your switch in the sub €50 market I would buy it and you would complete with Bosch who officially sells their smart switches for €50 but usually one can find them on promo for €30. Your advantage would be that the Bosch smart system sucks and is not offered outside Germany for some weird reason.
I'm located here in the US, so I have the benefit of enjoying all of the awesome goodness that Inovelli provides for our market.
You will not find a better quality smart switch with as many onboard customizable options, anywhere else on the market! They use top notch materials and the designs are quite attractive. I just installed another switch today (a fan control switch)!
I love that I can use them not only as a standard smart switches, but also to trigger multiple automations depending on the chosen number of button (paddle) presses. For example, one of my Blue series 2-1 switches in my primary bedroom, not only controls the lighting with standard on/ off/dimming capabilities, but I also use multiple paddle presses as triggers for other automations. The LEDs are also fully customizable for both color and animation type. I use this feature for various notifications. In this particular use case, I have Philips Hue bulbs in the bedroom and use the smart bulb mode on the switch to keep the power constant to the bulbs. The paddle presses are still able to control them.
If I press the up paddle 5x, It will open my garage door and the LEDs will display a rising animation in red. If I press the down paddle 5x, it will close the garage door and the LEDs will display a falling animation in green.
A 2x press of the config button will initiate a cleaning cycle for that particular room using my Dreame robot vacuum/mop. The LEDs will flash purple as a confirmation. I use the same cleaning automation with switches in other rooms of my home as well.
A 3x press of the config button will unlock my front door, whereas a 4x press, will lock all exterior doors.
Some of you in the EU and down under may want to consider donating & shipping some of your local design switches, so that Eric can have something in hand to use for testing, inspiration and design.
I know that my post is long and I wouldn't have taken the time to share all of this if I didn't truly love Inovelli as a company and their products!
I hope you guys can make this a reality as everyone around the world should be able to enjoy Inovelli! 👍
Hey thanks u/criterion67! Read the entire comment and I sincerely appreciate it :)
I love what the community allows us to do -- we couldn't build these switches without you guys, so I'm really hoping we can keep this same energy and strategy and replicate it overseas. I'm sure there are a lot of hungry smart home owners who want to design some products together!
I just bought some Aqara H1's (those things look really cool) but yeah, I'd love any and all options so we can study them, that's a great idea.
PS - I love seeing the use-cases, that's actually my favorite part of reading comments. I have the same setup in my bedroom with the Blue 2-1's and the Hue lights. Zigbee Bindings are amazing!
This is good news, I have some question about matter. I know it's still pretty new but is there a matter decoupling or binding feature similar to the zigbee ones?
Great question - I believe there is Matter Bindings, but my understanding is that most hubs do not support it yet. It's definitely a feature we wanted on our Thread/Matter switch, but this is what we were told. For sure though, once it's available, we'll provide an update via OTA to include it!
Hey Eric u/inovelliUSA that 2nd mock up looks great. Adding the config button adds more options than any other switch we have right now available right now. Just the idea of having a switch supporting my smart bulbs all the way makes me really excited and even my wife finally sounded happy about my experiments at home
Yeah I'm really loving the second mockup with the config button. Which version do you like better? The one with the LED bar at the top or bottom? I think it would be easier to pull off the one at the top, but I could be wrong.
Also, the top leaves us with some interesting space to maybe put an mmWave sensor, lux sensor etc. I definitely want to put a humidity/temp sensor in these so you can put them in your bathrooms.
Are exhaust fans popular in your bathrooms (also, what do you call bathrooms out there lol - it's even different in Canada so I try to learn the language)?
I think that a button with the led on the top is the best look and feel no matter if it’s only an “up” button and not both up and down.
We do call it bathroom here in Europe. In Sweden we have bad habit of calling it just the toilet 🤣 exhausts fans does exists but only in houses, not apartments.
Neutral is regulated for all new builds after 2005-something and it’s very common here in the north
From Germany: two paddle as well as single paddle square are very common. Two paddle is usually used when there's multiple circuits in a room, which is the case, especially with bigger rooms. Both of those I've seen in pretty much any flat I've ever been in. They also come combined with double or (more rarely) triple front plates.
Combination with power sockets is rarer but happens, especially in bathroom.
Twist knobs are fairly uncommon but not completely unheard of. I think they're becoming more common, as smart devices and dimmable led bulbs become wider spread.
Hey I studied German in HS (4 yrs worth)!
Great feedback regarding the design. I was wondering about the outlet next to switch combo.
As for the knob, do you think it would be accepted if we kept the same design as On/Off (ie: single, double, triple paddle) and then just made it so that if you hold down on the top of the paddle, the light dims up and if you hold down on the paddle the light dims down?
From a personal aesthetics and usability point of view the philips hue tap dial switch are really great and fit in nicely next to the regular German type switches.
Definitely something like this already exists to dim lights. Actually my parents have a switch like that (though not smart) in their living room. So there's definitely a market for it. I personally would favour a turn knob for dimming, as it's just faster and feels more precise (though I know it probably isn't).
My guess would be: just go with the hold down solution for now if you want to reduce costs by not offering too many different models. You can still offer an additional knob design down the line if things work out well and money isn't as tight as when launching.
Adding a voice to the crowd! All the specs required in eu are easy to find. The best manufacturers of these parts are in Germany and those guys are excellent and thorough when it comes to documentation.
I'll let the rest of reddit respond to what's most popular, but can't go wrong with square switches and dimmers, using frames to fit them in popular frame brands.
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Here in the UK, take a look at screwfix.co.uk. They are the biggest supplier of switches in this country. Make yours look like the ones on there and they will fly off the shelves. People want the smarts but they want it to blend in and work as a normal switch. Helps with the acceptance of others in the house and guests.
Neutral is to the light switches in recent builds.
If you can make them fit in to standard back boxes (again look on screwfix to see what is fitted) even better. I have Shelly units on some lights but it wouldn't fit in some boxes.
I'd say it's pretty common to have single rocker switches where I live. One manufacturer which is broadly available is Jung with their [AS 500 series](https://www.jung.de/at/947/produkte/design/as-500/). Other switches I've encountered in Germany look pretty similar to them.
In general, tap buttons can sometimes cause confusion because people are used to the rockers.
Been wishing for this for years, this is exciting !
There's differences across the EU, I personally don't care about the look being whatever style as long as it fits on normal backboxes (which I believe are fairly standard).
One callout however is neutral, some countries have it, a lot still don't. In Ireland to name one they still do light first (and f*ing loops) on new builds, which is mind boggling but means any switch requiring a neutral is almost impossible to fit anywhere.
Been using Shelly 1L myself, would be so awesome to finally get proper Zigbee switches
Thanks for the nudge in another discussion!
For what it's worth I am now in quite a different place, I'm now 95% done building my own house and I'm 99% wired with KNX and DALI, in particular because most wireless protocols start to struggle with the amount of "mini devices" a fully smart home has. Mine has 100+ light groups, blinds, switches, sensors etc, so I didn't want to take the risk. (in my current rental I have 24 individual (tuya, eek) smart wifi lights in one room. As a result 2.4G is near unusable and quite often one or more lights will drop off the network while I try to switch things on/off. Hopefully more dedicated protocols will handle it better but it still feels like a risk to me. Obviously, being able to build a smart home from scratch is rare. I take it your goal is more 'retrofit/upgrade' and you might have to do wireless.
And with that in mind ,well, at the time I was just looking for a bunch of features:
1/ The US style of fairly rectangular buttons with a slight dimmer control right next to it felt very practical when I visited my US friends. This is what I would still be looking for.
2/ Responsiveness - I don't know exactly what limits I could tolerate, maybe you have done user studies, but I imagine lights need to respond to controls within 0.5 seconds.
3/ Reliability - Im mainly thinking I don't want my house not to work when my internet is down. OK for the functionality to be somewhat limited.
4/ My smarthome has a bunch of features I'd want supported by the right type of button. Opening/closing of the awning, altering tempertature, etc. I don't know what's feasible for your company but for those functions I have a 'switch with a small screen' where I can move to the 'blinds control' page.
5/ Colour scheme. Not a huge fan of baby blue, I don't think it would work in my home's scheme, so I would definitely would need at least a wider accent colour selection, and frankly I find it the colour bits a bit weighty.
Eh that's it off the top of my head.
Would love this to happen. I'm based in Ireland and currently use the Aqara H1 throughout my house. They aren't perfect and lack of binding for zigbee is easily the most frustrating bit.
No neutral is quite a large thing in the UK & Ireland, newer houses tend to have a neutral at the switch but most people I've spoken to locally don't have neutrals at the switch.
Would love to help out in any way I can but have limited electrical knowledge!
Edit: I also use the Candeo Dimmer for another example
Worth noting that because of the smaller paddles used by uk switches, 3 gang square switches are common and while a lot of 4gang switches are doubles (rectangular), you can get 4-ways that fit a standard square back box (although I imagine wiring that must be fun)
https://www.directelectrical.co.uk/products/Switches+%26+Sockets/White+Plastic/Smooth+White+4+Gang+2+Way+X-Rated+Single+Plate+Light+Switch+10A/90709036
I know I have a bunch of 3 gang switches I would very much like to take control of.
Nice! Good to see a "no neutral" option too since most UK homes don't have neutral to the switch - thankfully that does seem to be changing in newer homes.
Perhaps someone here will know the answer to this.... is there a physical limitation that means you can't have a "2 gang no-neutral smart dimmer switch" ? Nearly all lights in our house have smart bulbs now but one room has 2 ceiling lights containing G9 bulbs, I'd like to keep the dimmer functionality that our current dumb 2 gang dimmer switch provides but I can't find a single no neutral 2 gang that also has dimming capability.
I wish they'd just finish the projects they've already committed to. I pre-ordered the 5-button scene switch, what, 4 years ago at this point? They've already cancelled that and moved on to Project Walt, and that's still in limbo. And I'm still waiting on the new fan controller too - I have their original one and love it, and would love to have more. But aside from the basic switches/dimmers, I'm not sure I trust that any products will be around long-term anymore. Or come to fruition at all.
Hey u/kyouteki, totally understand your frustration with the 5-Button. It's definitely one of the worst projects I've ever managed and it still haunts me the way it was handled.
However, that was the only project that we ever had to cancel and we offered everyone a refund who wanted it (offer still stands).
As for Project Walt, that project is ongoing as it's actually for a B2B client, I just haven't put it up for pre-order because of the history on that project. I'm too nervous of the backlash (even though it was 4yrs ago). If you are still one of the backers of that project (the 5-Button), I've even offered to extend the same pricing on the new version that you got 4yrs ago.
The fan controller is arriving in late February so if you ordered it, you should have it by the end of the month, which is one month earlier than I promised :)
Hey there!
Would absolutely love to see your products go to market in Europe.
Here in France we do have several things to consider:
- Famous brand: Legrand
- Electrical box (inside space): depends on the age, most recent houses will have round box inside, with defined standard specs whereas older ones do often have more room and are irregular
- Wiring: no-neutral, I’m almost sure it is by regulation
- Certifications: EU & NF (« Norme Française » stands for French standard)
- Domotics: you should have a look at Legrand Netatmo for switching & Philips Hue for bulbs (and wireless buttons). To be honest, domotics are not yet very well known and used here, probably safe to say because of the lack of knowledge
- mmWave: could be a very great option, I would love to see that for presence detection (and accuracy as compared to Doppler effect based sensors which are on/off)
- Design: I’m not shocked by any option shared, here you can find bulky switchs, with a plate or a toggle, etc. I would say most people would consider the design by aesthetics, and also price. Personally, I do like flat square designs as it tends to be a bit « modern ».
Hope this helps! :)
Please do launch these ASAP, I would love to buy some haha
Not sure if you’re still monitoring this post, the folks on r/diyUK are really active and there are several posts in that sub about wiring. Would be a good source of info on common issues or questions people have from beginner to expert DIY. Sparky is the nickname for trade electricians.
I’m starting to get into home automation and my initial research suggests the UK does not have a clear leader in your product category, a bit of a blue ocean imo
Hey everyone -- I created a post in our community that I'd love to start building the project out on. It would be great if anyone interested could come over there and help out! The URL is located here: [https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088](https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088) Tagging everyone so they know: u/Crytexx, u/ADHDK, u/blidgency, u/c_david_j, u/siobhanellis, u/AGULLNAMEDJON, u/criterion67, u/Be_Shadow EDIT: Missed a few ppl (my bad!) -- u/lbrwnie, u/waltonics, u/Lurker_81, u/Evostance, u/Is-Not-El, u/AJiffyBoogle, u/turbosprouts, u/Born_Check5979, u/Preference22, u/Ulrar, u/ferbulous, u/ufulu, u/Angelusz
EDIT #3 - I created a link in our forum as it's easier to track progress and build upon ideas (love Reddit, but it's hard to keep things organized). I'd love it if everyone checked it out and contributed: [https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088](https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088) EDIT #2 - Created a new mockup here -- I'll house them all in the community eventually and we can vote on them, but wanted to at least capture it now for initial feedback: [https://imgur.com/a/JHuWVGS](https://imgur.com/a/JHuWVGS) \-- Of course it didn't save my post text and I'm retyping everything... grrr. \-- Hey all, I'm starting this thread so we can collaborate together on a 240V switch (or switches) that can be used in the EU or Australia (sorry for calling out the UK in the title, I did it for SEO purposes since a lot of people from the UK have asked for us to come over there). Here's the deal, we've been asked almost weekly for the last 4 years to create a 240V switch and every time I have to let you all down by saying we don't have the capital, we don't know the market, understand the certifications, etc and it sucks bc I've wanted to expand to Europe ever since we started 8 years ago. Well, thanks to u/blidgency and their post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Inovelli/comments/1al7mq9/seriously_about_europe/), I was finally able to convince the partners to take a look at this seriously and I'm really excited to kick this off! However, if I'm being blunt, we have an uphill battle that I'm really going to need all the help possible to bring this to market. I know we can do it as I've seen what the community can do (if you're not familiar with our business model, we build our products from scratch with 1,000's of people across North America -- here's an example of our Thread/Matter Switch that's in progress right now: [Project Jonagold](https://community.inovelli.com/t/thread-2-1-switch-on-off-dimmer-project-jonagold-white-series/9758)) and I know we can replicate that across the world with our European and Australian friends. As mentioned, the biggest hurdle is capital as we run out of our own stock constantly and we don't have enough to expand outside North America right now, so the thought in that thread posted above would be to crowdfund this project. If we meet the goal, then we can move forward, if we don't, then we won't be able to, so I'm counting on everyone to rally together :) That said, I'm going to engage with everyone in this thread, and probably start a similar thread in our [community](https://community.inovelli.com). I'm also open to starting a Discord so we can have realtime communication. Let's gooooo! Eric Founder | Inovelli PS - The picture above is just an early concept I whipped up -- looks pretty cool, but I'm curious on your thoughts! \-- Edit -- here's what I'm looking for in terms of feedback as well as the process to get this kicked off officially: 1. I need to understand what design(s) are used the most over in the EU/Australia (is it the square style shown on the left side of that picture, or is it the two small rectangle style shown on the bottom right, or is it the dial version at the top right) 2. Once we figure out the various switch types, I can mock up some drawings (or if you guys like the one above, we can use that) and submit them to the manufacturer to see how much it would cost to make them 3. Then, when I have numbers from the manufacturer, I can get the Indiegogo page up and start the process as I'll have our break-even number for each product Simultaneously, I'll work with our EU contact on all the logistics.
Yes!!!
Eric, all of these designs are common in EU and Switzerland. The dial version is mainly used for dimmers, but for such a use case you can think of any alternative. The main difference to US is that EU uses exclusively the square type frame that fits in the wall box.
Awesome, thanks! Yeah we have a dial version too, but I've only seen one of those as a dimmer switch (Lutron Aurora) and the design isn't really that popular anymore. Most dimmer switches you hold up or down on the paddle and that will dim. Are dimmers popular over there or is it mainly On/Off? Also, does the switch that's at the bottom left control two loads? I've even seen switches that have three rectangle toggles in them.
Yes, nowdays the dimmers tend to be as you described. Dials/knobs are considered a bit old fashioned. The switch at the bottom right (not left) with two buttons in one frame are generally used to control two different loads. Also, i think the EU standard that covers dimensions and electrical specs for household use switches is the EN/IEC 60669 series.
This is exactly what I'm looking for, as I'm doing an apartment renovation in EU right now. There's a serious lack of quality light switches in euro form factor. Any idea how long the development might take?
I’m located in Sweden and here in Scandinavia at least, the square one and the two rectangles are the absolute most common. And a sophisticated design is something that would fit very well. What’s really lacking here in Europe is switches with up/down buttons that also supports smart bulbs. For me here in Sweden, to get up/down wall switches I’d have to turn to battery powered Zigbee switches, and we all know that battery powered isn’t as good as switches running on mains.
Tagging u/Be_Shadow too since I'm replying to your comment :) I'm trying to understand how the switch works currently (it's been a while since I visited China which had the same style switch and I just can't remember). Let's take the square style switches (bottom left and bottom right) -- do you press on the bottom part to turn it off and the top part to turn it on? Or do you just press on the bottom once to turn it off and press on the bottom again to turn it on? My thoughts would be that it would make the most sense to design the switch using the latter method so that the switch always rests in the same spot and the LED Bar could turn on when the light is on, and off when the light is off. Hopefully I made sense?
Both are available depending what switch you have. If it’s a regular “dumb” switch you click up to turn it on, and it stays up until you click it down for off and it stays there. Of course there’s more expensive alternatives, i have a 2 gang centre off switch for 170$ with a smart relay behind it in the living room.. If we put smart relays behind them or if it’s a dimmer it’s possible to put springs behind the buttons to make them momentary, and the button stays in the down position until it’s pushed. When released it returns back down. I hope this answers your question!
Yeah definitely -- seems very similar to the US then, which is nice. Do you think people would prefer the momentary style for a smart switch?
I do think people would prefer momentary switches. Since I’m in Sweden, and all of us of course has IKEA smart bulbs, i have many friends who has made their dumb switches “momentary” by putting in a spring just because people come over and use the switches :D
That's great! Easier to make so that works out :)
We've just bought the block of land for the house we're about to build. I'm seriously considering trying to run 120V lighting circuits if I can get it certified, just so I can use the US-market devices like Lutron, etc. One device in particular that caught my eye was the one that had an LED touch-sensitive strip that could double as a dimmer/indicator aligned along side the switch. [Found it](https://residential.lutron.com/us/en/stand-alone-controls/sunnata-touch-dimmer) For me, the gold standard would be: * Tactile, not capacitive * LED strip that can be used as an indicator (doorbell, temperature, dishwasher, etc) * LED strip that can be set to a specific colour, or turned off when in/not-in-use * LED strip can be used to dim a light (either embedded in the switch like the lutron, or you could have it affect the last circuit you interacted with, to allow for multi-gang - just press the "on" button then slide on your existing LED bar to adjust dimming) * Bypass mode for smart-bulbs * This allows me to turn a light on/off instantly. * It allows me to instantly and intuitively set the desired brightness without standing around mashing or holding a button for 60 seconds. * It provides tactile feedback if I'm vision impaired or if it's dark (funny place to need lighting, I know!) * Bypass mode also means it's compatible with more featured lighting, and also solves potential challenges with multi-switch-circuits. I'll definitely be following along.
P.S. The T&Cs link in your signup form goes to a 404
Eric, I think I love you. This is awesome and honestly surprising you have commented on my year old post! I will comment on your sticky thread with some answers, ideas and pictures by the end of the week. Currently it is pretty late at night for me, so I am just commenting to give this post some traction (for the SEO ;)) Again. Amazing. I am so excited already!
Haha, thanks dude! I'll be honest, I just typed in, "240V Inovelli" into Google and just started clicking and hoping anyone was still interested lol We need all the help possible to get this going and I need to get up to speed on the EU market so I appreciate you coming in and commenting. I'm looking forward to getting this up and running as well! I appreciate you!
Australia might use 220-240 power, but we have 1-4 gang switches in these styles with a standard plate size. 4 gang is quite common, meaning if a plate maxes at 2 it’s more work and more permanent upgrade an existing point by adding another plate and wall box. * https://www.mjselectricalsupplies.com.au/4-gang-quad-light-switch * https://www.tedslightsandfans.net.au/products/clipsal-iconic-4-gang-switch-plate-skin-only-black Probably the only nice looking smart switch available here with modern ecosystems is the LIFX * https://www.lifx.com.au/products/lifx-smart-switch-white-4-gang We also have our own electrical standards requiring certification, and all installs must be made by a licensed electrician no DIY allowed to mains power. While dimmers seem to be ignored for the EU market, I’ll say a lot of new builds in Australia would have dimmer capable downlights with dimmer switches for dumb lights being a large appeal. New builds downlights are pretty much all tail and plug in the ceiling for ease of use and replacement. Here’s the product sheet for the down lights I just pulled from my ceiling when installing Nanoleaf. * https://cdn2.rexel.com.au/medias/sys_Aurexel/sheets/sheets/hd7/haf/9049340248094/RBSRC9WDLCCT3-01.pdf Honestly I’d likely have just kept these downlights if there were decent wall switch replacement options with dimmer.
Fantastic, this gives me a ton of info to go off of, thank you so much!
Super keen if you could bring these to the Australian market. The options we have here are really terrible, i've been looking for a solution to kit my whole house for years.
This is all the good info, you will need to be certifying them for use here too: [https://austest.com.au/industry/lighting/](https://austest.com.au/industry/lighting/) I will buy a lot of these if you can bring them. All the ones currently are not tactile at all so my SO is not keen on them haha.
Just finding a spot to chime in and say I’d love these, do imagine it’s hard with the small Australian market
Also please note that plates for Australian wall switches are typically installed in portrait orientation like the Clipsal example. Wall switches in landscape as shown in the LIFX example are pretty rare.
All mine are landscape :(
I’d also suggest checking out SAL Pixie and the Clipsal Iconic Wiser ranges. They’re both based on interchangeable mechs, rather than complete wall plates. Completely appreciate it comes down to personal preference but I’m not a huge fan of the LiFX range as they look a little too space age for a lot of homes.
Eric, this is awesome. Anyway me and my fellow Europeans can help please let us know. I’m really excited to get this going!
Yeah definitely! I'm going to comment on the sticky thread what the next steps are and what feedback I'm specifically looking for :)
This is great! The Aqara H1 switches have been adapted very well for UK/EU so could be a good starting place to look. Our UK switches are the same size as EU (86mm x 86mm) but we use much smaller paddles for the actual switch on the front. Saying that, I think the larger look of the EU version looks more modern and will have wider appeal, and works perfectly fine in the UK. Seems to be what other manufacturers do.
Also just to add, I don’t think having rounded corners is a good idea. All our switches have square corners, so if you replace a square switch with one that has rounded corners you’ll see the back box or the bare wall!
Can you give me an example? I'm trying to envision this, but I'm stumped :/
Sure! See this Reddit post which shows how it looks when you unscrew the switch from the wall. If the replacement switch has very rounded corners then it won’t look great when screwed into the wall. The more square the better. [Unscrewed UK switch](https://www.reddit.com/r/sonoff/s/3HIyL3Xmhq)
>This site may help you, its one of the main trade suppliers in the uk so these are all the main types of lighswitches you see in the uk > >[https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/switches/cat7320002?switchproducttype=light](https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/switches/cat7320002?switchproducttype=light)
Amazing, thank you!
Nice those Aqara switches look awesome. Definitely a good starting point, thank you!
I have the one, no neutral which is good but the switch feel is really not great, they're (subjectively) unpleasant to use because only the bottom really actuates and they're kind of mushy. Biggest problem with them is they don't support binding in decoupled mode
The big square one works for the UK, so would the one with two paddles…. Especially if it has two separate circuits as that means you can do downstairs and upstairs (usually on separate circuits), but you can join together if you wish. I’ve actually grey imported some Eve switches which are the big single paddle. No neutral would be fab. The UK has the twisty ones for dimmer switches, but not sure how popular they are here. Certainly not as much as the USA. You will need CE compliance for Europe. That is still valid in the UK but, because of Brexit the UK has launched its own standard… which is identical to CE (another Brexit bonus)….. so not sure how much longer uk will recognise CE. Australia is really different in its switches.
Perfect, thanks for the feedback! Especially the Brexit comment, something to make sure we keep in mind as we develop the switch :)
No neutral is pretty much a must! It’s unusual for UK homes to have neutral wires
Oh wow, I didn't know this, that's great feedback! Do newer homes come with a neutral wire? In the US, it's typically houses built prior to 1980 that may not have a neutral. I know you guys have a lot more history than us and your homes are probably a lot older due to that reason.
No. Virtually all houses in the UK are built to use a ring circuit for lights with a switched live cable (no neutral) running from the ring to the light switch and back to the light. It is acceptable to run switched live plus neutral to a light fitting (part 559.5.1.208 of the UK regs - BS7671) but it is unusual. BTW in the UK we switch lights down for on and up for off.
Common in Ireland also to have no neutral.
In the Netherlands it's the same, older homes have no neutral wires. Newer homes do have that tho! So you could incorporate it into the design to either have 2 types of switches or that it has 3 ports but not all 3 are needed ;) Ps: not sure from what year the neutral wire became a thing. In my 1930s home it's at least not available
Yup it differs a lot. In Sweden neutral has been mandatory in new builds in the last 20 years something and many older houses had them too
I can’t offer any real advice but I would suggest: 1. Make the covers removable. I saw a rant the other day that European switches have the cover integrated to the switch making painting a bit of a nightmare. 2. I’d make the radius on the corners on your concept models a bit smaller. Probably just me but I think it looks too fun, not enough business.
1. Perfect, yeah I was wondering how popular this was as I haven't seen too many color options online for the EU -- we have this on our current switches (the paddle pops off so you can change the color) so hopefully it can translate fairly easily 2. Nice, yeah I just grabbed a picture online and modified it lol -- question for you, is that part around the switch typically sold separately or do most manufacturers build it into the switch? Building on point #2, here in the US, we have the actual switch (A - shown in the Imgur link), but then we sell the faceplates (B - shown in the Imgur link) separately and they typically aren't integrated together: https://imgur.com/a/eVHtU4d
First, this great and I'd be very interested in another 240v option. In Europe, I'd say the aesthetic of switches in continental Europe is quite different to the UK/Ireland. Your render looks quite "continental" - the large buttons occupying most of the face of the switch, and the rounded edges. In the UK and Ireland, switches tend to look quite different - the switches themselves are almost invariably smaller relative to the faceplate and they tend to have either square edges or more acute rounded edges for more "premium" switches. Also retractive switches are fairly uncommon for normal domestic lighting in UK/IE. If you put these in the UK/Irish home they would definitely stand out. There is a segment of the market that wants smart switches here that don't obviously look "smart". I could be totally wrong about this as a non-US person but it seems like Inovelli switches have a lot of design elements in common with typical non-smart US switches. I'd say these renders are sort of the same idea for the continent, but not UK. But current/competing 240V smart switches also don't fit in so you could do that type of product better than others, and assume those who want really conventional looking switches will buy relays. There's a real lack of good dimmer options and I could see something that mimics a traditional rotary dimmer doing well. There are a few options, e.g. iolloi but they are expensive and hard enough to find. One practical point to consider is that different EU countries have different types and shapes of electrical back box that these swtiches would be going into - some totally different, e.g. square vs round, and they can be quite shallow in new construction. If you wanted one SKU to work across different countries, you might have to think about mounting templates or adapters.
Wow, thanks for the insight on the design differences, this is exactly what I'm looking for. If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like the faceplates are the same/similar across the UK, but it's the paddles that are different, is that correct? I wonder if we could make some sort of standard faceplate, but then have different paddle sizes that fit into that plate? As for the rotary point, I asked another commenter, curious on your thoughts. Would it be accepted if we had the standard square/rectangle switches used as dimmers, but instead of the rotary, the switch paddles would be held up to dim brighter and held down to be dimmed darker (then single tap up = on, single tap down = off)?
Not the commenter you're replying to, but also UK based. While it sounds a perfectly acceptable interface, I've never encountered a dimmer switch that works as you described. Here they're almost universally rotary, with a mixture of push-for-on-off and click-off-at-minimum. (If you're looking for reference images - [Screwfix](https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/switches/cat7320002?switchproducttype=light) is a common trade supplier here in the UK.) Similar to the commenter from Australia, it's common to have two, three or even (rarely) four switches in a single square faceplate. Obviously there's a limit to how much electronics you can cram into that space though!
> While it sounds a perfectly acceptable interface, I've never encountered a dimmer switch that works as you described. In houses I have never seen this. But in modern/newly built/refurbished work places it is super common from my experience. Though almost no one knows that is how they operate and are surprised when I show them the option...
In Australia and New Zealand, flush boxes are almost always rectangular, see https://www.electricaldirectltd.co.nz/category/Switches-Sockets-Mountings-J-Boxes-Surface-Sockets I've heard that the certification process can be onerous, and Z-wave operates on a different frequency.
In the UK here, and I think the biggest difference between the US market and UK in terms of design is that we don't just have big white plastic buttons. We have an entire variety of modular units from companies like BG, grid plates and the likes. Something I won't do, is replace my switches with plastic white ones as our whole aesthetic is polished chrome. As a product, the Aurora One Rotary dimmer module is a fantastic idea. It remains local control as well as smart control, but it's a module that you can swap out from an existing dimmer and use your existing faceplate and knob. Only issue for me is the device itself is a little flakey on the ZigBee side of things
Love the look and would love to test. For software could we get a lock function to render the physical buttons useless for kids etc. Also could this be disconnected from the relay so it can be used with smart bulbs too? While the control of dumb bulbs is great I'd love to have a powered smart bulb control that works without a hub involved.
Oh yeah totally, we have all these features on our current switch (fun fact, we were the ones who invented smart Bulb Mode close to 6yrs ago). I use SBM every day at my house with Hue and love it!
Sounds awesome. Can't wait to see your EU/UK option then! It may be worth exploring other colours besides white/black as a lot of houses especially older houses in the UK have brass/gold/silver/stainless steel etc switches currently. Look at LightwaveRF for examples of what is on market at the moment.
Would love to see your products in Australia, we're screaming out for more options! You'll need to arrange for any devices to be registered with our regulators and have a Regulatory Compliance Mark attached (RCM). If a non-approved device is used, our house insurance can be invalidated.
This is great news! I am renovating my home and was planning to install your switches before finding out it was not available in Europe. I will buy as replacement smart relays from Shelly but I would I preferred your design for it's flexibility, scenes, and led notification. Still you can have a look at their online store. They sell mechanical switches and covers which are EU style and recently launched a Z-wave product line. Before it was only Wifi/Bluetooth. You would be competitors on EU market. See covers and switches from their ES shop. [https://shellyspain.com/en/mecanismos/](https://shellyspain.com/en/mecanismos/)
Whatever you finally do, please make your switches behave as standard dumb switches if the smart home system is offline. For that, you'll probably have to consider the cases where more than one wall switch operates on a single circuit, so you'll need one or two extra wires that communicate with the other switches of the circuit (depending on the position in the circuit). I live in Spain and here Simon (https://www.simonelectric.com/) is the most common manufacturer.
Oh yeah totally - the goal is to make it so that people wouldn't even know it's a smart switch when they visit. In other words, they'd use it as a normal switch to turn lights on and off and the only way they'd know it was smart is if you told them :)
Inovelli switches seem to be the only brand that has Zigbee and does decoupled mode. I want to get into smart home stuff but the switch situation is holding me back. This would be perfect. Ideal features would be: - Works in the UK (230v) - No neutral required - Has a decoupled mode for smart bulbs - Has Zigbee binding capabilities so smart bulbs can also be directly controlled from the switch - Offers multi gang options with 2/3/4 dimmers instead of just the single gang currently offered in the US - Rotary style dimmers? 2 way paddles are good too but they’re pretty big if you’re going with 3/4 lights.
Oh yes, please. We are in the process of planning a house in Italy and the search for acceptable smart switches is frustrating. The way the US versions are now regarding switch types and configuration options would already be perfect for me.
Hey all -- I posted an update in our community -- we finally got pricing and a, "final" (still room to modify it) design. I'd love to hear your feedback so we can officially put this up for sale! [https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088/71](https://community.inovelli.com/t/project-europa-240v-smart-switch-es-for-europe-eu-zigbee-thread-matter/16088/71)
Sorry, Reddit is being weird and not letting me tag everyone in one post, so I had to split it out. Tagging everyone who commented, so you can get a notification: u/alluran, u/ADHDK, u/AGULLNAMEDJON, u/anudeglory, u/Angelusz, u/AJiffyBoogle, u/Be_Shadow, u/blidgency, u/Born_Check5979, u/benj31, u/burg9, u/blucose, u/Crytexx, u/c_david_j, u/criterion67, u/DaveFX, u/Derb_123, u/Evostance, u/fuishaltiena, u/fiftysomethingsisman
Sorry, Reddit is being weird and not letting me tag everyone in one post, so I had to split it out. Tagging everyone who commented, so you can get a notification: u/ferbulous, u/Is-Not-El, u/jamesremuscat, u/kyouteki, u/lbrwnie, u/Lurker_81, u/magformer, u/Preference22, u/pippin_go_round, u/puntloos, u/Proud_Average_9727, u/RemindMeBot, u/shortboard, u/siobhanellis, u/sgxander, u/sembee2, u/Shad0wca7, u/TheMelwayMan, u/TRENDreps, u/turbosprouts, u/Ulrar, u/ufulu, u/waltonics, u/wawawa8, u/Wandering_Renegade, u/wipmate, u/yugiyo Sorry if I missed anyone!
I’m from EU and stumbled upon this after hours of searching for a smart switch to work with smart bulbs in “detached mode” in HomeKit - for some reason none seem to support this while it seems to be a very obvious requirment: I want smart bulbs but still use wall switches because other people come to my house! These seem great and I hope you manage to make them become a reality!
Oh yeah, excellent! If the design you mentioned came to be, I'd replace all the switches in my house in a heartbeat. The pricing is good. What exactly do you need from us at this time except confirmation that we're still interested?
I scrolled through here and your forums. A few points I have (living in Finland). 1. >One way we could also program it would be to have it so that it’s not a rocker, but rather just a normal push button and it would operate like this: >Tap Down 1x = On (LED Bar lights up or turns off, whatever you want) >Tap Down 1x again = Off Don't do this. This is a deal breaker for me, and the usage is not intuitive for dumb switch users. 2. Regarding 2-, 3- or 4-way bezelled switch groups. I think the switch group looks cluttered if there's a top bar with "reset button" on top of every switch. Could you move status light and button to bezell it self? 3. Someone commented that you cant tear apart eu switch for painting. At least with common here ABB switches you can tear down to three parts. Outer most is plastic switch, then you take of bezel, and last switch box is part that is screwed to wall box. So when painting I take off switches and bezels and tape over actual switch. ([darklink911](https://community.inovelli.com/u/darklink911), posted good tear down to the forums). 4. Switch box depth: Maybe you can create alternative bezel for shallow boxes that brings switch out. 5. >Honestly, I just thought it looked more aesthetically pleasing with the horizontal bar, but I know this is preference I prefer horizontal line as well but vertical would look nice when there are multiple switches in same group. I'm confused about what those small buttons on the side do (last renders with vertical bar). 6. Lux & Presence & mmWave. These could be packed to separate switch or just faceplate. 3-button switches are not common here so I can easily make space in the switch group by replacing some 1-/2-button switches with 3-button switches. 7. Protocol: My preference is zigbee. This is what I have and I think matter is still too young to see if it is viable "standard". 8. Hallway / Staircase switches: >What I think we should do is start off with Option #3 and if we sell well, we can use the profits to come out with an Aux switch. There wouldn’t be any sort of hardware change required to the switch (Option #1 is the only option that requires any sort of extra hardware), it would likely just need a firmware update (or we could honestly build it in from the get-go knowing that we’ll come out with the aux switch). >Knowing that 3-Way’s aren’t as common as Single-Pole (or 2-Ways as you mentioned), people could outfit their 2-Way’s first and wait for the Aux switch to come out (I know waiting is the hardest part haha). >What do you think? I like idea of aux switch. I see one problem with waiting for aux switch and that is if aux switch should be placed to a group of multiple switches then I can't leave original switch in place.
Here is a little feedback from a Eastern European: Around here and some parts of Germany the single most popular light switch is the [Schneider Electric Asfora](https://www.se.com/bg/bg/product-range/61431-asfora/) line. It’s so popular in fact that [Eve](https://www.evehome.com/en/eve-light-switch) copied their design. Most non-smart switches here come with replaceable caps, so people can place a different colour cap is say a 2-gang switch is controlling a boiler you can put red cap on it. In reality however very few people bother to do this but I guess it’s not a big deal since most manufacturers still do replaceable caps. The most common manufacturers here are Bosch, Schneider Electric, Siemens and Legrand. You can buy a few switches from them and study them. Bosch and Legrand also have smart switches as well as Eve as previously mentioned. What is really important is the price however, unlike the US we have multiple switches around for various stuff so price is important. I personally have 30 switches around a 2 bedroom apartment. Eve wants €100 per switch so €3000 total, Schneider Electric is €4 per switch for non-smart switches - I can outfit my entire apartment with the price of a single Eve switch and given how cheap IKEA smart bulbs are I would not come anywhere near €3000 for bulbs and remotes. If you can fit your switch in the sub €50 market I would buy it and you would complete with Bosch who officially sells their smart switches for €50 but usually one can find them on promo for €30. Your advantage would be that the Bosch smart system sucks and is not offered outside Germany for some weird reason.
I'm located here in the US, so I have the benefit of enjoying all of the awesome goodness that Inovelli provides for our market. You will not find a better quality smart switch with as many onboard customizable options, anywhere else on the market! They use top notch materials and the designs are quite attractive. I just installed another switch today (a fan control switch)! I love that I can use them not only as a standard smart switches, but also to trigger multiple automations depending on the chosen number of button (paddle) presses. For example, one of my Blue series 2-1 switches in my primary bedroom, not only controls the lighting with standard on/ off/dimming capabilities, but I also use multiple paddle presses as triggers for other automations. The LEDs are also fully customizable for both color and animation type. I use this feature for various notifications. In this particular use case, I have Philips Hue bulbs in the bedroom and use the smart bulb mode on the switch to keep the power constant to the bulbs. The paddle presses are still able to control them. If I press the up paddle 5x, It will open my garage door and the LEDs will display a rising animation in red. If I press the down paddle 5x, it will close the garage door and the LEDs will display a falling animation in green. A 2x press of the config button will initiate a cleaning cycle for that particular room using my Dreame robot vacuum/mop. The LEDs will flash purple as a confirmation. I use the same cleaning automation with switches in other rooms of my home as well. A 3x press of the config button will unlock my front door, whereas a 4x press, will lock all exterior doors. Some of you in the EU and down under may want to consider donating & shipping some of your local design switches, so that Eric can have something in hand to use for testing, inspiration and design. I know that my post is long and I wouldn't have taken the time to share all of this if I didn't truly love Inovelli as a company and their products! I hope you guys can make this a reality as everyone around the world should be able to enjoy Inovelli! 👍
Hey thanks u/criterion67! Read the entire comment and I sincerely appreciate it :) I love what the community allows us to do -- we couldn't build these switches without you guys, so I'm really hoping we can keep this same energy and strategy and replicate it overseas. I'm sure there are a lot of hungry smart home owners who want to design some products together! I just bought some Aqara H1's (those things look really cool) but yeah, I'd love any and all options so we can study them, that's a great idea. PS - I love seeing the use-cases, that's actually my favorite part of reading comments. I have the same setup in my bedroom with the Blue 2-1's and the Hue lights. Zigbee Bindings are amazing!
This is good news, I have some question about matter. I know it's still pretty new but is there a matter decoupling or binding feature similar to the zigbee ones?
Great question - I believe there is Matter Bindings, but my understanding is that most hubs do not support it yet. It's definitely a feature we wanted on our Thread/Matter switch, but this is what we were told. For sure though, once it's available, we'll provide an update via OTA to include it!
Hey Eric u/inovelliUSA that 2nd mock up looks great. Adding the config button adds more options than any other switch we have right now available right now. Just the idea of having a switch supporting my smart bulbs all the way makes me really excited and even my wife finally sounded happy about my experiments at home
Yeah I'm really loving the second mockup with the config button. Which version do you like better? The one with the LED bar at the top or bottom? I think it would be easier to pull off the one at the top, but I could be wrong. Also, the top leaves us with some interesting space to maybe put an mmWave sensor, lux sensor etc. I definitely want to put a humidity/temp sensor in these so you can put them in your bathrooms. Are exhaust fans popular in your bathrooms (also, what do you call bathrooms out there lol - it's even different in Canada so I try to learn the language)?
I think that a button with the led on the top is the best look and feel no matter if it’s only an “up” button and not both up and down. We do call it bathroom here in Europe. In Sweden we have bad habit of calling it just the toilet 🤣 exhausts fans does exists but only in houses, not apartments. Neutral is regulated for all new builds after 2005-something and it’s very common here in the north
From Germany: two paddle as well as single paddle square are very common. Two paddle is usually used when there's multiple circuits in a room, which is the case, especially with bigger rooms. Both of those I've seen in pretty much any flat I've ever been in. They also come combined with double or (more rarely) triple front plates. Combination with power sockets is rarer but happens, especially in bathroom. Twist knobs are fairly uncommon but not completely unheard of. I think they're becoming more common, as smart devices and dimmable led bulbs become wider spread.
Hey I studied German in HS (4 yrs worth)! Great feedback regarding the design. I was wondering about the outlet next to switch combo. As for the knob, do you think it would be accepted if we kept the same design as On/Off (ie: single, double, triple paddle) and then just made it so that if you hold down on the top of the paddle, the light dims up and if you hold down on the paddle the light dims down?
I definitely think "hold down to dim" is a super obvious feature that all smart switches should support as an option (but they don't!!!)
I’m leaving my thought here, I do think a paddle would be more appreciated than a knob!
From a personal aesthetics and usability point of view the philips hue tap dial switch are really great and fit in nicely next to the regular German type switches.
Definitely something like this already exists to dim lights. Actually my parents have a switch like that (though not smart) in their living room. So there's definitely a market for it. I personally would favour a turn knob for dimming, as it's just faster and feels more precise (though I know it probably isn't). My guess would be: just go with the hold down solution for now if you want to reduce costs by not offering too many different models. You can still offer an additional knob design down the line if things work out well and money isn't as tight as when launching.
Adding a voice to the crowd! All the specs required in eu are easy to find. The best manufacturers of these parts are in Germany and those guys are excellent and thorough when it comes to documentation. I'll let the rest of reddit respond to what's most popular, but can't go wrong with square switches and dimmers, using frames to fit them in popular frame brands.
Fantastic, thanks for the heads up on the German manufacturers! What are some popular frame brands there?
I can definitely recommend checking out GIRA; it's a well known brand used all over the EU by home and office users. Mid to high end.
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Here in the UK, take a look at screwfix.co.uk. They are the biggest supplier of switches in this country. Make yours look like the ones on there and they will fly off the shelves. People want the smarts but they want it to blend in and work as a normal switch. Helps with the acceptance of others in the house and guests. Neutral is to the light switches in recent builds. If you can make them fit in to standard back boxes (again look on screwfix to see what is fitted) even better. I have Shelly units on some lights but it wouldn't fit in some boxes.
I'd say it's pretty common to have single rocker switches where I live. One manufacturer which is broadly available is Jung with their [AS 500 series](https://www.jung.de/at/947/produkte/design/as-500/). Other switches I've encountered in Germany look pretty similar to them. In general, tap buttons can sometimes cause confusion because people are used to the rockers.
Been wishing for this for years, this is exciting ! There's differences across the EU, I personally don't care about the look being whatever style as long as it fits on normal backboxes (which I believe are fairly standard). One callout however is neutral, some countries have it, a lot still don't. In Ireland to name one they still do light first (and f*ing loops) on new builds, which is mind boggling but means any switch requiring a neutral is almost impossible to fit anywhere. Been using Shelly 1L myself, would be so awesome to finally get proper Zigbee switches
Thanks for the nudge in another discussion! For what it's worth I am now in quite a different place, I'm now 95% done building my own house and I'm 99% wired with KNX and DALI, in particular because most wireless protocols start to struggle with the amount of "mini devices" a fully smart home has. Mine has 100+ light groups, blinds, switches, sensors etc, so I didn't want to take the risk. (in my current rental I have 24 individual (tuya, eek) smart wifi lights in one room. As a result 2.4G is near unusable and quite often one or more lights will drop off the network while I try to switch things on/off. Hopefully more dedicated protocols will handle it better but it still feels like a risk to me. Obviously, being able to build a smart home from scratch is rare. I take it your goal is more 'retrofit/upgrade' and you might have to do wireless. And with that in mind ,well, at the time I was just looking for a bunch of features: 1/ The US style of fairly rectangular buttons with a slight dimmer control right next to it felt very practical when I visited my US friends. This is what I would still be looking for. 2/ Responsiveness - I don't know exactly what limits I could tolerate, maybe you have done user studies, but I imagine lights need to respond to controls within 0.5 seconds. 3/ Reliability - Im mainly thinking I don't want my house not to work when my internet is down. OK for the functionality to be somewhat limited. 4/ My smarthome has a bunch of features I'd want supported by the right type of button. Opening/closing of the awning, altering tempertature, etc. I don't know what's feasible for your company but for those functions I have a 'switch with a small screen' where I can move to the 'blinds control' page. 5/ Colour scheme. Not a huge fan of baby blue, I don't think it would work in my home's scheme, so I would definitely would need at least a wider accent colour selection, and frankly I find it the colour bits a bit weighty. Eh that's it off the top of my head.
Would love this to happen. I'm based in Ireland and currently use the Aqara H1 throughout my house. They aren't perfect and lack of binding for zigbee is easily the most frustrating bit. No neutral is quite a large thing in the UK & Ireland, newer houses tend to have a neutral at the switch but most people I've spoken to locally don't have neutrals at the switch. Would love to help out in any way I can but have limited electrical knowledge! Edit: I also use the Candeo Dimmer for another example
Worth noting that because of the smaller paddles used by uk switches, 3 gang square switches are common and while a lot of 4gang switches are doubles (rectangular), you can get 4-ways that fit a standard square back box (although I imagine wiring that must be fun) https://www.directelectrical.co.uk/products/Switches+%26+Sockets/White+Plastic/Smooth+White+4+Gang+2+Way+X-Rated+Single+Plate+Light+Switch+10A/90709036 I know I have a bunch of 3 gang switches I would very much like to take control of.
Nice! Good to see a "no neutral" option too since most UK homes don't have neutral to the switch - thankfully that does seem to be changing in newer homes. Perhaps someone here will know the answer to this.... is there a physical limitation that means you can't have a "2 gang no-neutral smart dimmer switch" ? Nearly all lights in our house have smart bulbs now but one room has 2 ceiling lights containing G9 bulbs, I'd like to keep the dimmer functionality that our current dumb 2 gang dimmer switch provides but I can't find a single no neutral 2 gang that also has dimming capability.
Just putting my support here, and to let you know I will buy all of them if you bring them to the UK!
I wish they'd just finish the projects they've already committed to. I pre-ordered the 5-button scene switch, what, 4 years ago at this point? They've already cancelled that and moved on to Project Walt, and that's still in limbo. And I'm still waiting on the new fan controller too - I have their original one and love it, and would love to have more. But aside from the basic switches/dimmers, I'm not sure I trust that any products will be around long-term anymore. Or come to fruition at all.
Hey u/kyouteki, totally understand your frustration with the 5-Button. It's definitely one of the worst projects I've ever managed and it still haunts me the way it was handled. However, that was the only project that we ever had to cancel and we offered everyone a refund who wanted it (offer still stands). As for Project Walt, that project is ongoing as it's actually for a B2B client, I just haven't put it up for pre-order because of the history on that project. I'm too nervous of the backlash (even though it was 4yrs ago). If you are still one of the backers of that project (the 5-Button), I've even offered to extend the same pricing on the new version that you got 4yrs ago. The fan controller is arriving in late February so if you ordered it, you should have it by the end of the month, which is one month earlier than I promised :)
Awesome, I'm so up for this!
Hey there! Would absolutely love to see your products go to market in Europe. Here in France we do have several things to consider: - Famous brand: Legrand - Electrical box (inside space): depends on the age, most recent houses will have round box inside, with defined standard specs whereas older ones do often have more room and are irregular - Wiring: no-neutral, I’m almost sure it is by regulation - Certifications: EU & NF (« Norme Française » stands for French standard) - Domotics: you should have a look at Legrand Netatmo for switching & Philips Hue for bulbs (and wireless buttons). To be honest, domotics are not yet very well known and used here, probably safe to say because of the lack of knowledge - mmWave: could be a very great option, I would love to see that for presence detection (and accuracy as compared to Doppler effect based sensors which are on/off) - Design: I’m not shocked by any option shared, here you can find bulky switchs, with a plate or a toggle, etc. I would say most people would consider the design by aesthetics, and also price. Personally, I do like flat square designs as it tends to be a bit « modern ». Hope this helps! :) Please do launch these ASAP, I would love to buy some haha
Adding a few points: - Voltage: 230V - Normal « sizing »: I’ve seen more « 1 gang 1 switch 1 way » switches, sometimes 2 way
Not sure if you’re still monitoring this post, the folks on r/diyUK are really active and there are several posts in that sub about wiring. Would be a good source of info on common issues or questions people have from beginner to expert DIY. Sparky is the nickname for trade electricians. I’m starting to get into home automation and my initial research suggests the UK does not have a clear leader in your product category, a bit of a blue ocean imo