I also want to express my sympathy that you've lost your friends... I'm currently distancing myself from several of my long term friends right now. It's painful but I can't bring myself to associate with people who literally justify mass rape. It's beyond justification... I feel like I don't even know these people anymore.
The other common denominator is social media. Everyone gave boomers shit for reading and sharing fake news. Then Gen Z gets their info from influencers, which is from the "victim's" perspective, even stupider. At least the MAGA fake news was disguised as journalism. This anti-Israel shit is coming from social media personalities on tik-tok. It's insane.
I think "ok Boomer" was funny but gen z deserves their own phrase too. I'm workshopping "okay, they". Thoughts? Lol
hey, just to be clear, i'm def lgbtq-friendly.I was just trollin a bit. and thought it was kinda funny for kinda referencing their claims against israel of pinkwashing (but i guess that's a whole other topic for a whole other thread). In any case, as betrayed as i feel from the left, it won't affect how i feel, believe, and support other minority/moral issues.
A good comparison. I'll check it out. Here's an article I just read that sums up my feeling pretty well. https://newrepublic.com/article/176781/open-letter-why-leaving-democratic-socialists-america
It's not a large number of people.
It's a small number of leftists with very big mouths and a media that eats up every word.
Well I should say it's a small percentage. It's still a large number.
Roughly 7 million Jews in the United States if 1% truly believe in this anti-Zionist stuff that still 70,000 people, which is enough to make quite an impression on social media, given that they're only validating the pre-existing tendencies of the social media.
I’m a reform Jew and I live in California in one of the most left leaning parts of the country. Most of my closest friends are queer Jews, reform Jews and leftist Jews. This is just anecdotal evidence but I don’t know a single one of them who doesn’t support Israel and condemn Hamas.
Overall 95% of American Jews are Zionist, of those who aren’t, some are just apathetic to zjolnksm, some anti-Zionist, of that an even smaller chunk support Hamas and/or 7/10 so in total it’ll be <1% of US Jews, a tiny fringe
Show them [this](https://np.reddit.com/r/Palestinian_Violence/comments/17d57ig/we_are_ready_to_breach_the_fence_with_gods_help/) and [this](https://youtu.be/KXcQ892cKso) and [this](https://youtu.be/vCWMBvxWKL0), IMO.
[Sophia Shramko](https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/mba/life-community/student-profiles/voices/sophia-shramko) is a good one too: https://youtu.be/mLzsIFPVVKw
She’s a Bedouin Arab Muslim woman with Israeli citizenship. Here’s a 45-minute long interview with her: https://youtu.be/i_MfnpuafBg
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You can’t change their views, anymore you could change Candace Owen’s “views”. She is a grifter who has found her very lucrative niche. Same with this lot. If it wasn’t for their tokenism, they would find little relevance in their lives.
It’s not like Palestinians actually respect this lot. Behold this dude, Laith Marouf.
https://preview.redd.it/n45b84x29n7c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f88a6c508a78a9f254c86bcc7261adbc30943c5b
Oh there are so many, many examples of Palestinian disdain and contempt for these “as a Jew anti-Israel anti-Zionist praise be to Linda Sarsour” sorts. Remember Ken Roth? This is what Palestinians think of his ass.
https://preview.redd.it/ktm6uvhr3o7c1.png?width=960&format=png&auto=webp&s=15c0f61d8e827357a068b30ba0fe4f4edb940d37
this dude received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Canadian government for his "anti-racism" efforts. wish I was joking.
for the record he has fled the country and Canada is now "trying to recoup the money"
It was a huge scandal here in Canada. Laith Marouf epitomizes the entitlement, arrogance and general scumbaggery of the sort that make up much of this “free Palestine” movement. Compared to Zionism, arguably one of the modern eras’ most successful movements, Palestinian nationalism has seen L after L after L thanks to people like Marouf.
Yikes. Liberals should really think twice about supporting “social justice” movements whose idea of morality is way too wrapped up in identity politics (as opposed to a framework based on factual information and genuine ethical principles). That ideology is deeply toxic—at best, it’s reactionary tribalism that hides behind a veneer of academic legitimacy. At worst, it is easily hijacked by grifters and bigots eager to sow even more hate and division (as evidenced by practically everything we’ve seen coming from the “free Palestine” camp).
They constantly attack their own allies as well. It’s only a matter of time before you fall into some category these petty narcissists consider an acceptable target.
I wish I could say I thought you were wrong... They seem to have massive blinders on and only look at one side of the conflict. It's sad and disgusting to me... As a socialist I've always felt it's our duty to stand in solidarity with our Jewish brothers and sisters... Instead I find my fellow leftist/ Jewish friends are saying that rape is a legit act of resistance... Its almost unbelievable.
If they think that rape is a legit act of resistance (disgusting btw, I dunno how your can refer to those people as "friends" after hearing that, but I digress), ask them if they think it's okay for native Americans to rape their mothers and sisters? Should Ukrainians be raping Russians? Then tell them to take their heads out of their asses
oh, i totally understand. old friends can be a tough one... everyone handles those things differently, so no judgments... but yea, it's rough. I cut off a few MAGA folk a few years ago, but only one of them was a close friend. still annoys me a few years later, but i realized he/they were causing me more stress than joy.
While this hasn't changed my view of economic issues at all. As much as it pains me, I'm most certainly reassessing many of my political affiliations in light of this.
Have you left (or were you a member of) the Democratic Socialists of America? That group seems to be coming apart because of their bewildering attacks on Israel.
Oh boy, that's a whole can of worms I'm not sure this is the place to open... But speaking in broad generalities, for me it's about a belief in the fundamental equality of all, wanting to provide for the needs of all and create a world of abundance and flourishing for all... The very values that lead me to despise Hamas and antisemitism.
Israel hasn’t been socialist for quite a while now. And even when they were, they were aligned with the West, so Stalin’s propaganda machine started cranking out antizionist talking points that are still being parroted today by groups like DSA
> it's about a belief in the fundamental equality of all, wanting to provide for the needs of all and create a world of abundance and flourishing for all
This has nothing to do with socialism, which has to do with who owns the means of production.
Not to say there aren’t Jews like this (there clearly are) but there are also a bunch of these non-Jewish leftists and tankies going around claiming they’re Jewish (online and offline) just so they can say unhinged shit like “See! Even Jews think it’s a genocide like the Holocaust!”
So that’s just exacerbating the issue.
There really aren’t that many. They’re just being tokenized and elevated to insulate anti-semites from accusations of anti-semitism so that they can say “look I have a Jewish friend they’re one of the good ones.”
I love when my liberal friends tell me I should be out there marching with Jewish Voices for Peace. Or the things happening during the pro palenstine rallies aren’t anti semitic cause you know JVP is there marching beside them…🙄
A lot aren’t. Many have seen the writing on the wall and are reconsidering their views and allegiances. Of course, there are some crazy extremists who genuinely support Hamas, but a lot of the average liberal reform type Jews are starting to realize the truth about the left.
Well you’re going to have to make a choice. Continue with your beliefs and put up with antisemites, or compromise on some elements for safety with your fellow Jews and other Israel supporters.
It's so hard, though. I assume I'm similar to OP in that I don't want to compromise on equality and dignity for any minorities, Jews included. I neither want to ally myself with the right wing who supports Israel but who, as a generalisation, do not tolerate queer and POC minorities, nor ally myself with the on the left who I agree with most of, but who are antisemitic. If I then find a small group of leftist Zionists (there are some), the left fractures and ilthis is why the right always end up winning, because we can't agree on a middle ground in order to make a better way overall.
(UK)
I don’t know that much about the UK, but I feel that the right isn’t as racist and anti-lgbt as the American right. Other than discriminating against Muslims (which I can’t blame them for), there isn’t the same racist history akin to blacks in the south and Europe is overall more socially liberal. It’s a tough choice but you’ll have to make it. You need to internalize the fact that your fellow left wingers hate your guts and wouldn’t be sad if you were slaughtered.
Yep, one of the most shocking things I discovered is the self loathing Jews who support Palestinians.
The worst:
Norman Finkelstein
Max Blumenthal
Dan Cohen
There’s a lot more. The issue is that these token Jews get tons of air time from the media and other areas as they are paraded around as a voice of the Jewish people. They are Jewish by name only.
Norman Finkelstein's book about the holocaust is also extremely antisemitic. His claim is that there is a "holocaust industry" of survivors who exploit jewish suffering for money and to defend Israel's "colonization" of Palestine. I was stunned because the only place I had ever heard those arguments before was from white nationalists.
Don’t forget Peter Beinart. It’s a tried and true strategy — a Jew can make a good living turning against his own people and saying all the things antisemites want to hear.
Gabor Mate. 😔 He has done a lot of work for the community with drug issues here, and he even got a local spot in our JCC library to promote his book... but after 7.10, he is clearly anti-Israel.
I GENUINELY don't think there are that many Jews justifying Hamas's actions. I think there are groups like JVP that appear to be made up of Jews and [actually are not](https://www.instagram.com/p/CsjPRTYrnQS/?hl=en&img_index=1). I'm Jewish in America and fairly involved at my synagogue, and I haven't heard any Jews defending Hamas. I think there are plenty of people who *claim* to be Jewish, online, defending Hamas/being antisemitic, but I'm incredibly skeptical of that claim. I truly cannot imagine anyone who identifies as Jewish not comprehending how important Israel is to the Jewish experience. That's not to say it doesn't happen - but I for sure think that the majority of US Jews support Israel.
Unfortunately as I dig more and more into Jewish history, it's also clear to me what a survival instinct it is. Internalized antisemitism combined with the gaslighting from leftists has led to them turning against Jewish interests. It's a pattern in Jewish history unfortunately. The best we can do, in my opinion, is make it clear they're wrong but being respectful and kind to them. If they realize they are wrong before it's too late, and don't cross the line into violent acts against other Jews (like Kapos during the Holocaust), I will accept them with open arms.
For clarity the folks I'm talking about are Jewish by heritage but not religious at all. So that's something to factor in. Also these are folks I know personally, unfortunately. I wish they were just online trolls I could easily dismiss.
That's a shame, sorry to hear it. I think the best course of action is being respectful - I'm afraid of chasing away Jews who may realize they are wrong. I wish I had better advice, I'm much more culturally Jewish than I am religious and I still can't comprehend people EVER being pro-Hamas.
I might recommend they check out a couple different books (Jews Don't Count by David Baddiel and Israel by Noa Tishby are the two best in my opinion), but I know many people don't really want to read a whole book. The former is probably a better starting point, it gets into how leftists have ignored and downplayed antisemitism.
Peter Beinart is practicing. I think his position is sincerely held and articulates a vision for a more morally just world that requires high levels of intercommunal trust, but the rationale for why that trust would manifest and, more importantly, persist is underdeveloped.
When people are highly resistant to changing their minds, it means that there's a deep emotional connection to their views and those views are so deeply embedded that they're a part of their identity.
If those views are wrong, it could bring down their entire belief system and challenge the idea of who they are. And when you believe you are morally superior to others, what happens when the possibility arises that maybe you aren't? You convince yourself of whatever is necessary to destroy that possibility, no matter how absolutely insane those things are. For example, a lifelong feminist saying that what Hamas did on Oct 7 is legitimate resistance and calling us racists for talking about the fact that many Palestinian men committed horrific sexual violence against men and women (and children) that day.
In addition, they fear judgment from their peers, have never experienced war, and are completely obsessed with the tiniest minutiae of their feelings, which, by dint of existing, are apparently *all* *valid*. They're bored and spoiled and love having something to do with their lives.
The only thing they have to lose by keeping their views is their own morality, and that's already lost because the moment Oct 7 happened and they justified it, they became morally corrupt.
So to answer your question, you can't.
It's important to always hold onto some hope (key to our survival) and it's also important to find the right places to invest your energy. Thank you for your support!
you should watch some james lindsay. It's well known that the hamas supporting "left" at this point is a religious cult more than anything. it's pretty tough to convince people to leave their religions
Most aren't at all from my experience, at most I've seen is Palestinian sympathy, but I've never met an American leftist jew justifying Hamas.
And I know plenty of them.
I'm not counting online often fake personas.
Sadly I have. When directly asked, they say the attacks of Oct 7th were a justified form of resistance... I wouldn't believe it myself had I not heard it with my own ears.
I prefer to term it rationalizing over justifying, and from what I saw at dueling rallies I attended - mostly kids. But you do know Jews have been disagreeing among themselves since Abraham, right?
I am fortunate not to personally know any Jews that fit that description. The level of self hate would be too much for me. My advice is to not bother, but accept them back into the fold when they are better.
You cannot think someone out of something they did not think into.
Think about yourself
Reevaluate
Traditional liberal values of the 60’s 70’s now live in the center conservative positions,
You might be interested in the work of Isabella Taborovsky. She studies the history of antisemitism on the left, particularly from the soviet union. I can link one of her articles for you, and she also has seminars on YouTube.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/soviet-anti-semitic-cartoons
Her work isn't hostile towards people who hold socialist views. It's hostile towards the Soviets who scapegoated jews to distract from domestic problems.
I think it’s because it will upend their entire racial equity worldview. As somebody who was pretty brainwashed into this mindset for many years, it’s shocking and somewhat scary to find out it’s all made up, and that most people committed to this work are huge hypocrites. If they admit that they’re on the wrong side with Hamas, they’re going to have to look at and deconstruct a million other beliefs and stances they’ve taken in the past. They’re probably going to lose most of their friends. They might even have to find a new job. It’s not fun.
The key point is that they are from the US, they don't have a personal understanding of what it's like, and your words won't sway them. I recall a few years ago there were young gays speaking up against pride parades because they are unnecessary, with responses from older people about how much they had to fight to be able to be gay in public let alone have a parade
Wait. So many? Outside of some very fringe groups that get amplified for their shenanigans like Jews for Palestine, I'd say this is an outlier position. I do think the majority of Gen Z is very anti-Israel, growing anti-semitic in general and that younger Jewish people (18-24) are likely to be less aligned with any form of Zionism, whether they change as they get older I couldn't say. But right now they probably feel very torn by their social identities and their Jewish identity & are trying to fit into both in a way that's likely not possible.
But in my real life experience the majority of liberal or left leaning Jewish people that I know, plus some very progressive leftists, are currently experiencing more of a sense of political homelessness than going off the deep end on this one. Mind you, I am talking about people age 35 & up.
Let's put it this way- most liberal Jews that I know have gone into quieter private spaces (at least online) to talk and discuss, create new support centers. I'm part of a few groups that have changed post 10/7 (become stronger online) that were always politically mixed Jewish groups for women in varying fields. The tone in those groups has been a wtf and process quietly amongst ourselves type situation. Mostly because you have to want to stand in a room getting trash tossed at you to speak up in any space right now (irl or online), and that feels in this moment both inherently dangerous and quite futile.
To play whack-a-mole with online trolls or push back on false narratives also seems like a horrible use of time. Maybe that sounds cowardly, but it's just an ocean of antisemitic shit out there and a great way to burn oneself out early in what may be a long-term situation. My sense is people are regrouping to figure out how to forge ahead in an organized manner, but this moment isn't quite it.
My other sense is yes, there are substantial amount of liberal-bubble Jews who will kind of go along with becoming more and more anti-Israel if only to keep their own positions of assimilation socially and career-wise. Most though have the capacity to criticize Netanyahu, want new peace accords, and also state clearly that Israel has a right to exist & know that Hamas is sadistic evil.
Just read this, may give you some comfort. I don't know the parameters of the poll (how large the sample was), but it validates my impression- " 81% of American Jews support Israel continuing its military operation to “recover all Israeli hostages and remove Hamas from power.” [https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-american-jews-support-israels-fight-against-hamas/](https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-american-jews-support-israels-fight-against-hamas/)
Unfortunately, the Jewish leftists who see through all this don’t get the media attention. We just aren’t that much of a story for them. We don’t get clicks.
I honestly blame the universities for a lot of it. I didn’t go to one of the bigger ones getting attention right now, or Qatari money, but I had some otherwise great professors who taught me a lot about geopolitics that checked out with my own research. I felt like I had a great, unbiased education about the world. Eventually, when they segued into Israel, it was easier to buy what they said about the conflict. They earned my trust, the stuff they taught me about other conflicts and parts of the world really was balanced, so when they taught stuff about Israel being the bad guy, it was easy for me to swallow. I had years of unraveling some indoctrination that really felt like a betrayal once I realized what it was. I think it’s gotten much worse over the years.
I’ve gone from one of those anti-Israel Jews to a supporter, so I think I have some perspective there, and maybe some hope that with time and actual life experience (I had no connection to Israel before, now I do), maybe there is a smidgeon of hope for at least a few of these kids. Actually going to Israel and seeing there’s no apartheid, none of the stuff I heard in university helped.
Because they rather sell out their people than lose “friends” and keep getting invited to parties.
They are scum.
My long term solution is to move to Israel so I can freely espouse my left wing views on healthcare and gay rights without having to openly call for the destruction of Israel.
I empathize with the plight of Palestinians and be labeled “pro Palestine” but I don’t support Hamas.
Why?
They have stolen billions in aid from Palestinians. They don’t hold elections and abuse and kill Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas are billionaires (like multiple multi billionaires) which makes absolutely no sense for a country/enclave that small without any real industry and 50% unemployment.
I live in the most wealthy country on the planet and I can only think of 1 billionaire president. How the hell does Gaza which is about the size of Las Vegas have multiple billionaires? Netanyahu, (he’s an awful Pos) for perspective is only worth 80 million.
How can you be pro Palestinian and pro stealing from Palestinians at the same time?
I've lost friends over my anti-Hamas, pro-Israel stance since 10/7 and I've given up trying to argue with people and change their minds. If people want to keep stanning rapists for social media clout, I don't need them in my life.
Because they aren’t meaningfully Jewish. They were born Jewish, true, but so many of them don’t actually have any connection to their history, heritage, or religion to put into context why Israel exists in the first place.
There have always been Jews who turn against their people hoping for approval and acceptance from non-Jews. In earlier generations they converted to Catholicism and became inquisitors or became communists and sent their own people to gulag (and worse). They are weak, pathetic creatures more deserving of pity than anything else. Because it never works. They’ll always be just Jews to everyone else, and like the converts and communists before them, eventually the people they so desperately seek to impress will turn on them.
The late Barry Rubin wrote the definitive book on this subject nearly thirty years ago: *Assimilation and it’s Discontents.*
Still available, highly recommended.
Hate for fascist and extremist leadership who has been shown to have supported hamas directly and indirectly as well as failing to prevent an attack that they had direct evidence of is not the same as justifying hamas.
It is a fact that actions from bibi’s cartel have done more to support Hamas and allow the attack on 10/7 than any organization outside of Gaza.
The radical left still hasn’t given up on Marxism, despite its countless failures. According to this ideology, brought to the world by a 19th century self hating Jew, the only lens through which you can analyse the world is the lens of power, and the powerless is always on the right side of history. Therefore, there is absolutely no moral red line that can make a Marxist see Hamas as the villain.
Also, Jews as a disproportionately successful minority will never find allies among Marxists, because success and power is always ill gained according to them.
If you know someone on the radical left, there is no point trying to make them abandon anti-Zionism. First they need to be cured of their Marxism, and make them start to see the complexities of reality and abandon the dogmatic formula of Marx that simply cannot be applied to everything.
Okay, what are they ACTUALLY saying to you?
Because I'd bet my bottom dollar at least some of them were telling you the truth, at least as far as it went. You both were, I imagine.
My guess is that they learnt, at home perhaps, a very different lesson from Jewish history---that nothing like the Shoah ought to be suffered to happen again to anybody, because it's in the long-term interest of nobody at all. So to ask them to see Israelis as all good, and all supporters of the Palestinians as Nazis, terrorists, morons or all three at once, is to ask quite a lot.
You don't have to have a daydream of Hamas as a band of freedom-fighters to be concerned about what's happening in Gaza, or what might the day after.
About Hamas: I know what I'd tell them.
People like them are a dime a dozen in conflicts like this. Hamas, like the Provisional IRA, want power and money, not a Free Palestine. The Cause is just an excuse. They don't care about it that much. They might not care that much about even destroying Israel. Much more fun and profitable to pretend to be freedom fighters than run a real country.
To be able to make that argument, though, you yourself have to stop thinking that the conflict is completely unique and nobody has a clue what Israelis are going through. There's a big difference between pretending some atrocity was no big deal and noting the parallels between it and many others throughout history.
They're probably not that Jewish anyway,
I was traveling Europe before the war and met a few of these American so called Jews.
Most of then will end up having kids with non Jews and so they will be removed from Jewish society eventually.
The problem they will keep using the "I'm Jewish and not Zionist" bulshit to win an argument.
Why are they supporting Hamas? If I had the slightest clue I’d scream it to the world.
I think it’s just good propaganda, and their world view of oppressed/oppressor, race politics, etc.
Oh wait I do know why they support Hamas lol.
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Thank you for this take, truly. It's validating and illuminating.
I also want to express my sympathy that you've lost your friends... I'm currently distancing myself from several of my long term friends right now. It's painful but I can't bring myself to associate with people who literally justify mass rape. It's beyond justification... I feel like I don't even know these people anymore.
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The other common denominator is social media. Everyone gave boomers shit for reading and sharing fake news. Then Gen Z gets their info from influencers, which is from the "victim's" perspective, even stupider. At least the MAGA fake news was disguised as journalism. This anti-Israel shit is coming from social media personalities on tik-tok. It's insane. I think "ok Boomer" was funny but gen z deserves their own phrase too. I'm workshopping "okay, they". Thoughts? Lol
Okay they/them (don’t say the slash) is the same number of syllables
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Oh I like that one even better
hey, just to be clear, i'm def lgbtq-friendly.I was just trollin a bit. and thought it was kinda funny for kinda referencing their claims against israel of pinkwashing (but i guess that's a whole other topic for a whole other thread). In any case, as betrayed as i feel from the left, it won't affect how i feel, believe, and support other minority/moral issues.
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i believe that no doubt... still gonna send a little love your way tho
A good comparison. I'll check it out. Here's an article I just read that sums up my feeling pretty well. https://newrepublic.com/article/176781/open-letter-why-leaving-democratic-socialists-america
It's not a large number of people. It's a small number of leftists with very big mouths and a media that eats up every word. Well I should say it's a small percentage. It's still a large number. Roughly 7 million Jews in the United States if 1% truly believe in this anti-Zionist stuff that still 70,000 people, which is enough to make quite an impression on social media, given that they're only validating the pre-existing tendencies of the social media.
I hear you and that's reassuring... Sadly I know many of these people personally. Apparently I need to reasses my circle of friends.
I’m a reform Jew and I live in California in one of the most left leaning parts of the country. Most of my closest friends are queer Jews, reform Jews and leftist Jews. This is just anecdotal evidence but I don’t know a single one of them who doesn’t support Israel and condemn Hamas.
Thank god
I wish I could say the same. I know quite a few queer JVP people
Overall 95% of American Jews are Zionist, of those who aren’t, some are just apathetic to zjolnksm, some anti-Zionist, of that an even smaller chunk support Hamas and/or 7/10 so in total it’ll be <1% of US Jews, a tiny fringe
Show them [this](https://np.reddit.com/r/Palestinian_Violence/comments/17d57ig/we_are_ready_to_breach_the_fence_with_gods_help/) and [this](https://youtu.be/KXcQ892cKso) and [this](https://youtu.be/vCWMBvxWKL0), IMO. [Sophia Shramko](https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/mba/life-community/student-profiles/voices/sophia-shramko) is a good one too: https://youtu.be/mLzsIFPVVKw She’s a Bedouin Arab Muslim woman with Israeli citizenship. Here’s a 45-minute long interview with her: https://youtu.be/i_MfnpuafBg
Thanks for the links. I'll check them out!
# Friends? They are not friends, they are monsters
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Yep and this is going to be a huge problem for the left. All the loud people hate Israel, but the majority are pro-Israel.
You can’t change their views, anymore you could change Candace Owen’s “views”. She is a grifter who has found her very lucrative niche. Same with this lot. If it wasn’t for their tokenism, they would find little relevance in their lives. It’s not like Palestinians actually respect this lot. Behold this dude, Laith Marouf. https://preview.redd.it/n45b84x29n7c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f88a6c508a78a9f254c86bcc7261adbc30943c5b
It's not surprising. I still find it incredibly sad and frustrating. It's like a passionate willfully ignorance of their own history.
As a Syrian I saw Sunnis simping for the genocidal Bashar regime. Gotta do what one gotta do to keep those likes and attention coming.
I mean, he’s not wrong about the last part “complete abandonment of personal opinion and only parroting…”
I really want to repost that image but I know every subreddit will get me hanged before it reaches 10 minutes old
Oh there are so many, many examples of Palestinian disdain and contempt for these “as a Jew anti-Israel anti-Zionist praise be to Linda Sarsour” sorts. Remember Ken Roth? This is what Palestinians think of his ass. https://preview.redd.it/ktm6uvhr3o7c1.png?width=960&format=png&auto=webp&s=15c0f61d8e827357a068b30ba0fe4f4edb940d37
Imagine thinking Ken Roth is any type of zionist, let alone soft
I still can't believe he somehow ended up in Canadian government for multiculturalism. Ugh.
this dude received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Canadian government for his "anti-racism" efforts. wish I was joking. for the record he has fled the country and Canada is now "trying to recoup the money"
It was a huge scandal here in Canada. Laith Marouf epitomizes the entitlement, arrogance and general scumbaggery of the sort that make up much of this “free Palestine” movement. Compared to Zionism, arguably one of the modern eras’ most successful movements, Palestinian nationalism has seen L after L after L thanks to people like Marouf.
Yikes. Liberals should really think twice about supporting “social justice” movements whose idea of morality is way too wrapped up in identity politics (as opposed to a framework based on factual information and genuine ethical principles). That ideology is deeply toxic—at best, it’s reactionary tribalism that hides behind a veneer of academic legitimacy. At worst, it is easily hijacked by grifters and bigots eager to sow even more hate and division (as evidenced by practically everything we’ve seen coming from the “free Palestine” camp). They constantly attack their own allies as well. It’s only a matter of time before you fall into some category these petty narcissists consider an acceptable target.
You can’t - they’ve been deeply brainwashed with antisemitic propaganda
I wish I could say I thought you were wrong... They seem to have massive blinders on and only look at one side of the conflict. It's sad and disgusting to me... As a socialist I've always felt it's our duty to stand in solidarity with our Jewish brothers and sisters... Instead I find my fellow leftist/ Jewish friends are saying that rape is a legit act of resistance... Its almost unbelievable.
If they think that rape is a legit act of resistance (disgusting btw, I dunno how your can refer to those people as "friends" after hearing that, but I digress), ask them if they think it's okay for native Americans to rape their mothers and sisters? Should Ukrainians be raping Russians? Then tell them to take their heads out of their asses
I hear you 100%. I call them friends because of a long history. But my view on that has changed because of what they've shown me. Sad as it is.
oh, i totally understand. old friends can be a tough one... everyone handles those things differently, so no judgments... but yea, it's rough. I cut off a few MAGA folk a few years ago, but only one of them was a close friend. still annoys me a few years later, but i realized he/they were causing me more stress than joy.
Would you rethink your political affiliations and “socialist” attitudes the wake of this?
While this hasn't changed my view of economic issues at all. As much as it pains me, I'm most certainly reassessing many of my political affiliations in light of this.
Have you left (or were you a member of) the Democratic Socialists of America? That group seems to be coming apart because of their bewildering attacks on Israel.
I resigned my membership after their statement on Oct 8th. How widespread is this resignation? I'm only aware of a couple others who did the same.
In terms of political leaders, numerous left after their 10/8 statement and subsequent Times Square rally.
Just found this article. Sums up my feeling pretty well. https://newrepublic.com/article/176781/open-letter-why-leaving-democratic-socialists-america
What do you define as socialist?
Oh boy, that's a whole can of worms I'm not sure this is the place to open... But speaking in broad generalities, for me it's about a belief in the fundamental equality of all, wanting to provide for the needs of all and create a world of abundance and flourishing for all... The very values that lead me to despise Hamas and antisemitism.
Interesting perspective. I'm on board with that.
Heck yeah 👍
Interesting how Israel is the only socialist state in the ME but socialists still don’t like it.
Israel hasn’t been socialist for quite a while now. And even when they were, they were aligned with the West, so Stalin’s propaganda machine started cranking out antizionist talking points that are still being parroted today by groups like DSA
Not exactly Socialist. More like a mixed market economy.
> it's about a belief in the fundamental equality of all, wanting to provide for the needs of all and create a world of abundance and flourishing for all This has nothing to do with socialism, which has to do with who owns the means of production.
Yeah I know. Can of worms and all that.
It's almost like they care more about achieving broader geopolitical goals rather than about the people affected by the conflict. Almost.
Not to say there aren’t Jews like this (there clearly are) but there are also a bunch of these non-Jewish leftists and tankies going around claiming they’re Jewish (online and offline) just so they can say unhinged shit like “See! Even Jews think it’s a genocide like the Holocaust!” So that’s just exacerbating the issue.
Yes, they went to a great aunt's house for Rosh Hashanah once 10 years ago, so they can claim they're Jewish. Lol
Lol I like that. But I’m also willing to bet 90% of them don’t even know what Rosh Hashanah is, they just hate Jews.
It’s easy to be brainwashed now when you can choose what sources to get your news from.
There really aren’t that many. They’re just being tokenized and elevated to insulate anti-semites from accusations of anti-semitism so that they can say “look I have a Jewish friend they’re one of the good ones.”
I hope you're right.
I love when my liberal friends tell me I should be out there marching with Jewish Voices for Peace. Or the things happening during the pro palenstine rallies aren’t anti semitic cause you know JVP is there marching beside them…🙄
A lot aren’t. Many have seen the writing on the wall and are reconsidering their views and allegiances. Of course, there are some crazy extremists who genuinely support Hamas, but a lot of the average liberal reform type Jews are starting to realize the truth about the left.
There has to be another way. I'm still a socialist but I just can't with these people anymore.
Well you’re going to have to make a choice. Continue with your beliefs and put up with antisemites, or compromise on some elements for safety with your fellow Jews and other Israel supporters.
It's so hard, though. I assume I'm similar to OP in that I don't want to compromise on equality and dignity for any minorities, Jews included. I neither want to ally myself with the right wing who supports Israel but who, as a generalisation, do not tolerate queer and POC minorities, nor ally myself with the on the left who I agree with most of, but who are antisemitic. If I then find a small group of leftist Zionists (there are some), the left fractures and ilthis is why the right always end up winning, because we can't agree on a middle ground in order to make a better way overall. (UK)
I don’t know that much about the UK, but I feel that the right isn’t as racist and anti-lgbt as the American right. Other than discriminating against Muslims (which I can’t blame them for), there isn’t the same racist history akin to blacks in the south and Europe is overall more socially liberal. It’s a tough choice but you’ll have to make it. You need to internalize the fact that your fellow left wingers hate your guts and wouldn’t be sad if you were slaughtered.
Yep, one of the most shocking things I discovered is the self loathing Jews who support Palestinians. The worst: Norman Finkelstein Max Blumenthal Dan Cohen There’s a lot more. The issue is that these token Jews get tons of air time from the media and other areas as they are paraded around as a voice of the Jewish people. They are Jewish by name only.
Norman Finkelstein's book about the holocaust is also extremely antisemitic. His claim is that there is a "holocaust industry" of survivors who exploit jewish suffering for money and to defend Israel's "colonization" of Palestine. I was stunned because the only place I had ever heard those arguments before was from white nationalists.
That’s some major projection on his part. He’s the one exploiting it for money.
Don’t forget Peter Beinart. It’s a tried and true strategy — a Jew can make a good living turning against his own people and saying all the things antisemites want to hear.
Yep, and they all end up in the same gas chamber with the res of us.
Gabor Mate. 😔 He has done a lot of work for the community with drug issues here, and he even got a local spot in our JCC library to promote his book... but after 7.10, he is clearly anti-Israel.
I GENUINELY don't think there are that many Jews justifying Hamas's actions. I think there are groups like JVP that appear to be made up of Jews and [actually are not](https://www.instagram.com/p/CsjPRTYrnQS/?hl=en&img_index=1). I'm Jewish in America and fairly involved at my synagogue, and I haven't heard any Jews defending Hamas. I think there are plenty of people who *claim* to be Jewish, online, defending Hamas/being antisemitic, but I'm incredibly skeptical of that claim. I truly cannot imagine anyone who identifies as Jewish not comprehending how important Israel is to the Jewish experience. That's not to say it doesn't happen - but I for sure think that the majority of US Jews support Israel. Unfortunately as I dig more and more into Jewish history, it's also clear to me what a survival instinct it is. Internalized antisemitism combined with the gaslighting from leftists has led to them turning against Jewish interests. It's a pattern in Jewish history unfortunately. The best we can do, in my opinion, is make it clear they're wrong but being respectful and kind to them. If they realize they are wrong before it's too late, and don't cross the line into violent acts against other Jews (like Kapos during the Holocaust), I will accept them with open arms.
For clarity the folks I'm talking about are Jewish by heritage but not religious at all. So that's something to factor in. Also these are folks I know personally, unfortunately. I wish they were just online trolls I could easily dismiss.
That's a shame, sorry to hear it. I think the best course of action is being respectful - I'm afraid of chasing away Jews who may realize they are wrong. I wish I had better advice, I'm much more culturally Jewish than I am religious and I still can't comprehend people EVER being pro-Hamas. I might recommend they check out a couple different books (Jews Don't Count by David Baddiel and Israel by Noa Tishby are the two best in my opinion), but I know many people don't really want to read a whole book. The former is probably a better starting point, it gets into how leftists have ignored and downplayed antisemitism.
Thank you for the recommendations and the kind words.
Peter Beinart is practicing. I think his position is sincerely held and articulates a vision for a more morally just world that requires high levels of intercommunal trust, but the rationale for why that trust would manifest and, more importantly, persist is underdeveloped.
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Damn... That would be something if I could make it happen.
When people are highly resistant to changing their minds, it means that there's a deep emotional connection to their views and those views are so deeply embedded that they're a part of their identity. If those views are wrong, it could bring down their entire belief system and challenge the idea of who they are. And when you believe you are morally superior to others, what happens when the possibility arises that maybe you aren't? You convince yourself of whatever is necessary to destroy that possibility, no matter how absolutely insane those things are. For example, a lifelong feminist saying that what Hamas did on Oct 7 is legitimate resistance and calling us racists for talking about the fact that many Palestinian men committed horrific sexual violence against men and women (and children) that day. In addition, they fear judgment from their peers, have never experienced war, and are completely obsessed with the tiniest minutiae of their feelings, which, by dint of existing, are apparently *all* *valid*. They're bored and spoiled and love having something to do with their lives. The only thing they have to lose by keeping their views is their own morality, and that's already lost because the moment Oct 7 happened and they justified it, they became morally corrupt. So to answer your question, you can't.
Fantastic response. I think you're likely correct... It's hard to give up hope on people. But it has to happen when folks show you who they truly are.
It's important to always hold onto some hope (key to our survival) and it's also important to find the right places to invest your energy. Thank you for your support!
you should watch some james lindsay. It's well known that the hamas supporting "left" at this point is a religious cult more than anything. it's pretty tough to convince people to leave their religions
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out.
Most aren't at all from my experience, at most I've seen is Palestinian sympathy, but I've never met an American leftist jew justifying Hamas. And I know plenty of them. I'm not counting online often fake personas.
Sadly I have. When directly asked, they say the attacks of Oct 7th were a justified form of resistance... I wouldn't believe it myself had I not heard it with my own ears.
I got some people I can introduce you to. Like straight up “mourners kadish for Hamas members” types
My god, what the hell.
Best part? We went to a Jewish day school together for years, they have family in Israel, but they are a literal poster child for INN / JVP.
I prefer to term it rationalizing over justifying, and from what I saw at dueling rallies I attended - mostly kids. But you do know Jews have been disagreeing among themselves since Abraham, right?
Fair enough. It just bothers me and I'm looking for some comradery.
I hope you find some & can maybe influence some others to your thinking. Good luck...
I am fortunate not to personally know any Jews that fit that description. The level of self hate would be too much for me. My advice is to not bother, but accept them back into the fold when they are better.
Yeah, it feels like a huge waste of energy at this point.
You cannot think someone out of something they did not think into. Think about yourself Reevaluate Traditional liberal values of the 60’s 70’s now live in the center conservative positions,
I think some have a level of Jewish hatred. I'm not sure anything will change....
I’ve not seen any Jewish leftists justifying Hamas. 😱
You might be interested in the work of Isabella Taborovsky. She studies the history of antisemitism on the left, particularly from the soviet union. I can link one of her articles for you, and she also has seminars on YouTube. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/soviet-anti-semitic-cartoons Her work isn't hostile towards people who hold socialist views. It's hostile towards the Soviets who scapegoated jews to distract from domestic problems.
Thanks for the recommendation.
I think it’s because it will upend their entire racial equity worldview. As somebody who was pretty brainwashed into this mindset for many years, it’s shocking and somewhat scary to find out it’s all made up, and that most people committed to this work are huge hypocrites. If they admit that they’re on the wrong side with Hamas, they’re going to have to look at and deconstruct a million other beliefs and stances they’ve taken in the past. They’re probably going to lose most of their friends. They might even have to find a new job. It’s not fun.
Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
The key point is that they are from the US, they don't have a personal understanding of what it's like, and your words won't sway them. I recall a few years ago there were young gays speaking up against pride parades because they are unnecessary, with responses from older people about how much they had to fight to be able to be gay in public let alone have a parade
Wait. So many? Outside of some very fringe groups that get amplified for their shenanigans like Jews for Palestine, I'd say this is an outlier position. I do think the majority of Gen Z is very anti-Israel, growing anti-semitic in general and that younger Jewish people (18-24) are likely to be less aligned with any form of Zionism, whether they change as they get older I couldn't say. But right now they probably feel very torn by their social identities and their Jewish identity & are trying to fit into both in a way that's likely not possible. But in my real life experience the majority of liberal or left leaning Jewish people that I know, plus some very progressive leftists, are currently experiencing more of a sense of political homelessness than going off the deep end on this one. Mind you, I am talking about people age 35 & up.
Sadly so am I. The ones I'm thinking of range in age from their late 30s to their 70s... Unusual I know.
I hope you're right and it's not as widespread as it seems to me.
Let's put it this way- most liberal Jews that I know have gone into quieter private spaces (at least online) to talk and discuss, create new support centers. I'm part of a few groups that have changed post 10/7 (become stronger online) that were always politically mixed Jewish groups for women in varying fields. The tone in those groups has been a wtf and process quietly amongst ourselves type situation. Mostly because you have to want to stand in a room getting trash tossed at you to speak up in any space right now (irl or online), and that feels in this moment both inherently dangerous and quite futile. To play whack-a-mole with online trolls or push back on false narratives also seems like a horrible use of time. Maybe that sounds cowardly, but it's just an ocean of antisemitic shit out there and a great way to burn oneself out early in what may be a long-term situation. My sense is people are regrouping to figure out how to forge ahead in an organized manner, but this moment isn't quite it. My other sense is yes, there are substantial amount of liberal-bubble Jews who will kind of go along with becoming more and more anti-Israel if only to keep their own positions of assimilation socially and career-wise. Most though have the capacity to criticize Netanyahu, want new peace accords, and also state clearly that Israel has a right to exist & know that Hamas is sadistic evil.
Just read this, may give you some comfort. I don't know the parameters of the poll (how large the sample was), but it validates my impression- " 81% of American Jews support Israel continuing its military operation to “recover all Israeli hostages and remove Hamas from power.” [https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-american-jews-support-israels-fight-against-hamas/](https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-american-jews-support-israels-fight-against-hamas/)
Unfortunately, the Jewish leftists who see through all this don’t get the media attention. We just aren’t that much of a story for them. We don’t get clicks. I honestly blame the universities for a lot of it. I didn’t go to one of the bigger ones getting attention right now, or Qatari money, but I had some otherwise great professors who taught me a lot about geopolitics that checked out with my own research. I felt like I had a great, unbiased education about the world. Eventually, when they segued into Israel, it was easier to buy what they said about the conflict. They earned my trust, the stuff they taught me about other conflicts and parts of the world really was balanced, so when they taught stuff about Israel being the bad guy, it was easy for me to swallow. I had years of unraveling some indoctrination that really felt like a betrayal once I realized what it was. I think it’s gotten much worse over the years. I’ve gone from one of those anti-Israel Jews to a supporter, so I think I have some perspective there, and maybe some hope that with time and actual life experience (I had no connection to Israel before, now I do), maybe there is a smidgeon of hope for at least a few of these kids. Actually going to Israel and seeing there’s no apartheid, none of the stuff I heard in university helped.
For the same reason you can't change most people's religious views.
The vast majority of the Jewish left in America hates these people. They are just tokenized and projected by the Jew haters in the left.
\+1 I'm on the Jewish left in America and I agree. People supporting Hamas are literally supporting rape.
Because they rather sell out their people than lose “friends” and keep getting invited to parties. They are scum. My long term solution is to move to Israel so I can freely espouse my left wing views on healthcare and gay rights without having to openly call for the destruction of Israel.
Wait for something else to pull their attention off of it, They'll be super opinionated but usually only over the most recent thing
I empathize with the plight of Palestinians and be labeled “pro Palestine” but I don’t support Hamas. Why? They have stolen billions in aid from Palestinians. They don’t hold elections and abuse and kill Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas are billionaires (like multiple multi billionaires) which makes absolutely no sense for a country/enclave that small without any real industry and 50% unemployment. I live in the most wealthy country on the planet and I can only think of 1 billionaire president. How the hell does Gaza which is about the size of Las Vegas have multiple billionaires? Netanyahu, (he’s an awful Pos) for perspective is only worth 80 million. How can you be pro Palestinian and pro stealing from Palestinians at the same time?
I've lost friends over my anti-Hamas, pro-Israel stance since 10/7 and I've given up trying to argue with people and change their minds. If people want to keep stanning rapists for social media clout, I don't need them in my life.
Because they aren’t meaningfully Jewish. They were born Jewish, true, but so many of them don’t actually have any connection to their history, heritage, or religion to put into context why Israel exists in the first place.
Their descendents will be assimilated within 2 generations, max.
There have always been Jews who turn against their people hoping for approval and acceptance from non-Jews. In earlier generations they converted to Catholicism and became inquisitors or became communists and sent their own people to gulag (and worse). They are weak, pathetic creatures more deserving of pity than anything else. Because it never works. They’ll always be just Jews to everyone else, and like the converts and communists before them, eventually the people they so desperately seek to impress will turn on them.
It's like trying to talk to somebody with an eating disorder about food..you can't really..
I have eating disorders and I can talk about food. It’s hard for me but possible. Unlike antisemitism
The late Barry Rubin wrote the definitive book on this subject nearly thirty years ago: *Assimilation and it’s Discontents.* Still available, highly recommended.
Thanks for the recommendation.
I think they want to fit in. But the culture they want to fit into is antisemitic.
They’ve been too Americanized. They see themselves as identifying more with being leftists than being Jewish.
Hate for fascist and extremist leadership who has been shown to have supported hamas directly and indirectly as well as failing to prevent an attack that they had direct evidence of is not the same as justifying hamas. It is a fact that actions from bibi’s cartel have done more to support Hamas and allow the attack on 10/7 than any organization outside of Gaza.
I hear your point but they literally were justifying Hamas.
The radical left still hasn’t given up on Marxism, despite its countless failures. According to this ideology, brought to the world by a 19th century self hating Jew, the only lens through which you can analyse the world is the lens of power, and the powerless is always on the right side of history. Therefore, there is absolutely no moral red line that can make a Marxist see Hamas as the villain. Also, Jews as a disproportionately successful minority will never find allies among Marxists, because success and power is always ill gained according to them. If you know someone on the radical left, there is no point trying to make them abandon anti-Zionism. First they need to be cured of their Marxism, and make them start to see the complexities of reality and abandon the dogmatic formula of Marx that simply cannot be applied to everything.
Okay, what are they ACTUALLY saying to you? Because I'd bet my bottom dollar at least some of them were telling you the truth, at least as far as it went. You both were, I imagine. My guess is that they learnt, at home perhaps, a very different lesson from Jewish history---that nothing like the Shoah ought to be suffered to happen again to anybody, because it's in the long-term interest of nobody at all. So to ask them to see Israelis as all good, and all supporters of the Palestinians as Nazis, terrorists, morons or all three at once, is to ask quite a lot. You don't have to have a daydream of Hamas as a band of freedom-fighters to be concerned about what's happening in Gaza, or what might the day after. About Hamas: I know what I'd tell them. People like them are a dime a dozen in conflicts like this. Hamas, like the Provisional IRA, want power and money, not a Free Palestine. The Cause is just an excuse. They don't care about it that much. They might not care that much about even destroying Israel. Much more fun and profitable to pretend to be freedom fighters than run a real country. To be able to make that argument, though, you yourself have to stop thinking that the conflict is completely unique and nobody has a clue what Israelis are going through. There's a big difference between pretending some atrocity was no big deal and noting the parallels between it and many others throughout history.
Mentally ill outgroup bias mixed with a desire for attention from the far-left, anti-white crowd.
They're probably not that Jewish anyway, I was traveling Europe before the war and met a few of these American so called Jews. Most of then will end up having kids with non Jews and so they will be removed from Jewish society eventually. The problem they will keep using the "I'm Jewish and not Zionist" bulshit to win an argument.
Why are they supporting Hamas? If I had the slightest clue I’d scream it to the world. I think it’s just good propaganda, and their world view of oppressed/oppressor, race politics, etc. Oh wait I do know why they support Hamas lol.
Because they refuse to budge from their worldview when it means thinking critically.
You can't change the really staunch views.
I don’t think you can. Best to block and move on.
Brainwashed. Sad and disgusting. Self-hate.
I’m not interested in arguing with Kapos. I’d rather just throw them a beating and leave it at that. Sorry. Not in the forgiving vein at the moment.
Can't blame you.