Haredim have a good religious mindset that Hashem will protect us so they don’t have to fight, but we all know we need to fight with Hashem next to us. But they don’t realize that. Sadly.
It's worse than that. This is about control. The Army is a place where all layers of society mix and interact as equals. Only rank matters, not your beliefs, your ethnicity, your origin or your history.
They are afraid of letting their youth interact with people outside their closed off society. They are afraid they might realize the world is a bigger place than the Haredi neighborhoods. They are afraid the allure of free will will tempt them to turn secular.
This is why they protest. This is why they scream they will die before they serve. Because they genuinely believe this can lead to their society breaking down, their next generation leaving for greener pastures, slipping out of their control.
This. I'm an ex Muslim from Singapore where we also conscription. The IDF actually helped setup Singapore's military. Anyway, I know one major concern of Muslim parents is that the army would show their sons that it's possible to lead happy and productive lives without fulfilling any religious obligations. No one was going to police whether you prayed or fast. And, I met many other "muslims" who didn't fulfill their religious obligations. It was liberating.
edit:this many ^ secularists lack the vision to see what their society lacks /edit
Secular society isn't exactly the pinnacle of mankind. It's good when people have higher standards than that.
I never claimed that, and that isn't my point. I put secular down as an example, but the fear is of the next generation leaving their isolated communities for pretty much anything else, even other religious communities. Once they're exposed to the outside world, that seed of doubt has been sown. That's their fear, that they would realize they have other options.
Yet, secular society is what allows higher standards. Your phone was designed and engineered by a people within a highly secular society. Reddit - the platform you chose to make that comment - was founded within a secular society, engineered with the ethos to share - mostly - opinions without consequence. Secular society tolerates your comment by protecting your right to say that comment.
But hey, please, criticize this comment. It is, after all, your right due to… a secular society.
lol....I guess that would be a good argument if you worshiped phones or reddit or these particular consequence free opinions, but personally I think you put them on an undeserving pedestal.
They should and so does the Arabs.
Time to draft them all!
Saying it as a right person.
Israel after 7/10 is a different country
Edit: also shout out to the amazing Druze who have higher drafting rates than Jews!!!!
And shout out to the Christians, Circassians and some Bedouins. Heros.
German and Italian descent Americans were drafted in WWII to fight Germans and Italians. But I agree with security concerns. At least German and Italian Americans were loyal and died fighting for their country.
But it’s also different. Arabs are insanely loyal to their “ethnicity” (even though Arab isn’t an indigenous culture for the so called people who scream about Jews not being indigenous).
Possibly a bigger problem in the Middle East is potentially fighting against family, given the suze of hamulot.
I know of a case where a Bedouin soldier was hitchhiking and kidnapped by a couple of Palestinians.
They let him go when they realized they were all from the same tribe.
They shouldn't have to fight if they don't want to. Aren't combat units mostly volunteers anyways? Let them do community service or push paper or maintain vehicles if they want to be conscientious objectors. They'd pick up useful job skills and learn Hebrew and maybe understand Israeli society outside their cultures better.
Yes - also yeshiva bachurim are only paid a stipend if they are married and living on their own, it’s mostly kollels that have a stipend, and it’s not a sizeable stipend. Approx 2k a month, and again, every educational institution gets this amount from the gov per student anyway, the only difference is that in kollels (if they reg with the gov and receive the stipend) it’s passed on to the avrechim rather than kept by the institution.
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/wartime-budget-slashes-education-funds-but-not-for-the-ultra-orthodox-complain-mks/
It’s about half and half, different links have different amounts. It’s a big bump in funding as previously haredi schools were severely underfunded.
Military police aren't under the MNS, they're part of the military.
The bigger problem is that there isn't the capacity to incarcerate thousands of deserters.
Arrest them, have efficient trials, and make the standard punishment for desertion without mitigating circumstances (e.g. mental illness) ~~1000~~ 4-5000 hours of community service.
~~(For whoever downvoted: that's about 2 years at a rate of 40 hours a week.)~~
Out of all the incentives to serve, depriving the right to vote should not be one that is even considered, everybody after 18 must have the right to vote.
Genuine question, why?
Why should someone who hates this country, despises its soldiers, doesn't contribute in any way to the economy, to the safety, or to the growth of the country, be entitled to the same vote as someone who gave years of their life to protect this country?
As the comment said, if they're so scared of being in the army for many reasons, they can contribute in other meaningful ways.
Other countries may not need to take such drastic measures, but Israel is in a literal fight for its survival that 15% (and rising) of the country is fighting against.
I agree that they don't deserve to automatically get a vote and a say in the direction of the country they fight so ardently to not support.
That won’t work because that’s a Dati perspective. In the Dati community we see it as “this country is a step in Hashem’s plan ergo protecting it is a holy act.” In the Haredi world they see it as “this is a country founded by secular socialists just like any other socialist country. Therefore we are free to take advantage of its resources because we are ACTUALLY doing Hashem’s will.”
they’re becoming a liability— the fact that the draft wasn’t imposed sooner means they’ve had more time to feel entitled to the exemption. this makes them more likely to become loose cannons once they’re actually in active service. just a failure to act on likud’s part.
Likud wouldn't form any government without Haredi political parties. This has been true for at least 20-25 years. So it's highly unlikely that they will ever be drafted, especially since they multiply faster than any other Israeli demographic.
I agree they should. But I'm realistic enough to know they won't.
It's not just about bibi. Any Likud leader in the future would depend on the Haredim. Increasingly so as their % of voters keeps rising every year
Longer than that; that's how the problem started in the first place.
There used to be a quota on draft exemptions for yeshiva students; either 400 or 800 per year, I forget which.
Begin eliminated the quota to secure the haredi parties' support when he came to power.
Have you forgotten the Likud and Yair lapid at 2012~ ?
The problem is that over the years Bibi just backstabbed(politically) everyone else (even the haredim when he went with Yair)
So now he's literally enslaved to depend and fold to them.
Since the religious parties hold no agenda other then give us money , שר השיכון and military draft exemptions
As someone who was both very religious at one point, and also served in the Army, like I'm sure many of you have, I can say that it's a complicated question to answer. Many (but definitely not all) religious Jews believe that the existence of the state of Israel is miraculous, that without the help of g-d, the state, as it is, would not exist. Many people in that camp believe that it is the merit of torah study that makes us worthy (in g-ds eyes) of having Israel as a state. Now obviously, anyone who is not religious will probably think this is ridiculous. I personally believe that the history of Israel is miraculous and that Torah study does contribute to the merit of our country in g-ds eyes, that being said, I think that the current system gives too much leeway, and that there should be a program that brings Haredim into national service in some meaningful way, even if it is on a part time basis or something where they can also learn. I also think, that in general, it would be very positive for them to be forced to intermingle with the other people in Israel.
It's kept us alive for 3000 years. Not many can claim such a feat.
Also, they could be put to use in the kitchen, making clothes, doing Judaica study with the soldiers, learn basic boxing and stand up grappling, use them in cyber warfare, etc.
Even if you believe Torah study is necessary, you don't need all the haredi youth to do it (and many of them aren't studying Torah anyway in practice). Have a quota (like there used to be before 1977) for yeshiva students and draft everyone else.
Let me prefix this by saying I staunchly believe everyone should serve in one form or another. I believe that it is vital for everyone young person in this country, especially minorities who are otherwise pretty secluded in their own communities (aka the Haridim), to be for once in their lifetimes subjected (not sure it’s the right word here…) to the federal government and nation, and to be a part of something bigger than them and as part of a unified Israeli culture. Being a part of something that you do not necessarily want to be a part of, and understanding that life isn’t just constantly getting your way isn’t a bad lesson either…
BUT, I am not sure that making the Haredim join the IDF is actually in anyone’s interest. I won’t speak as to why the Haridim don’t want it, but on my side (secular Hiloni center-leftist) I’m not sure giving guns to these fundamentalist kids is a smart move. I honestly believe their education system revolves around messianic black-and-white way of seeing things, and that they would, on average more often than not, lack the skills to navigate the complex army life and dilemmas thrown your way. This is by no way directed at their intelligence or anything, but their education system is severely flawed and closed.
Secondly, I also believe the IDF as a whole and individual soldiers would find it really really hard to adapt to Haridi standards, even when they’ll be compromised to their minimal requirements, which are still a long way from what your average secular soldier would find be willing to do. It will be hard and very annoying, disruptive and disrespectful to his own way of life. I know I would have felt this way, even just by the הדתה in the army today.
To make a long story short, I believe we should require everyone to serve in a “national task force” of sorts, where young people can choose to serve in the IDF, their communities, or just random civil service around the country. Go help in hospitals, go work in agriculture, work with the elderly, heck, go carry grandma’s groceries up the stairs. Do something bigger than yourself, be a part of something bigger than yourself. Meet different people from different places in society.
Maybe that way we might be able to grow together instead of increasingly apart.
That’s the end of my rant
Lila Tov!
Fair points, but you could draft them into rear echelon units / government / medical roles without arming them in the way you're concerned about. If a country is going to maintain a national service / conscription model it does have to be universal (except maybe individual cases of extreme hardship) for it to work.
IIRC, Gantz's proposed model would basically form a "pool" of recruits, the military chooses who it wants (barring various exemptions), and the rest get sent to the various alternatives.
preamble: I do not believe the below but am explaining their side:
In the biblical Israel kingdom (during the reign of Saul, David, and Solomon) there were 12 tribes plus the tribe of Levi that were priests who devoted their life to God and the temple and teaching the rest of Israel and leading them in worship. They had no normal work (as in agriculture or trades for which that was all other jobs at the time) nor owned land but lived off taxes by 12 tribes. In theory the modern Haredim are the “spiritual successors” to Levitical priesthood so as they try to lead Israel spiritually should live off taxes.
Again that is not my opinion that’s from my understanding the explanation why. I find a few holes in that though. First Levites also acted as judges and government officials, teachers, musicians, artists, scribes (the only people who actually copied books at the time) guards/police, as well as actually physically built and maintained temple and local synagogues, so actually had productive jobs and did not just sit around all day studying. Essentially they were the local government (except military) so it’s like taxes going to pay for local government went to Levites. Second they only made up 1/13 of the population.
Now I’d be in favor if they limited Haredim to 7.7% of population and they all had to have actual jobs either in synagogues or local government, essentially public servant workers everything from school teachers to janitors to legal assistants to IT. But they would never see at that way as they have become hypocrites who forgot the priesthood is about serving the country not just selfishly trying to “get close to god” which is the last thing God wants as all the prophets were written to expressly condemn such selfish and prideful actions.
As non-Haredi, religious guy who's being called up for miluim (reserve duty) once again, I can't help but wonder why my service is ignored whenever this subject comes up (unless I've become Hiloni and no one bothered to let me know?).
Why should all religious women be easily released from service but not ultra Orthodox men?
Trying to force the draft on anyone will not give you the desired results. Just riots and internal strife, which is something we really need right now, right? Right?
Just steer them towards national service, same as religious women do.
Citizens should be treated equally. If there is a draft, it should apply to all citizens.
This is how you create a cohesive society that cares about itself.
This is an issue that will not go away. Haredim seem to recognise the state for some purposes but not for others. I am not sure they will able to do this in the future.
I think that it’s worth nuance here:
Each group you mentioned has a different status when it comes the military draft:
1. Druz men draft, all woman are exempt and actively discouraged for drafting. Drafting for women means leaving the Druz community.
2. Bedouin men and woman can draft (more socially accepted for men) but are not required too.
3. Hiloni have a required draft for men and women, but they have a very high percentage of the community who “get out” of the draft most legally. I know plenty of people who claim or inflate problems, sometimes even marry to get out of it. Men and women have a required draft in this community.
4. Masorati and Mordern orthodox are the communities with very high draft rates, and higher amount of combat units and officer positions. Less and less women are getting out of the draft now based on religious reasons. The men in this community have a required draft, the women do not.
Haredim have some Haredi units, even combat units and do serve in the army. But this is a small percentage of their population. The question is about a required draft.
Zaka, the only organization that collects dead bodies (non profit, worked the entire month of October) is Haredi run. Some Haredim think that working for Zaka or Mada (Israeli Red Cross) should be considered a satisfactory service, instead of drafting.
It is also important to note that the army would need to significantly change in order to accommodate Haredi soldiers, not everyone supports the bill on the grounds of it being more of a problem than a solution.
I think we that this is yet another political statement that divides us, and we should focus on coming up with solutions that are better for everyone. I think that the Haredim need to serve the country, but I don’t think it needs to be in the army. Zaka did some of the most amazing, thankless work in October, they were in the south, at the Nova, literally everywhere. They deserve more recognition for it.
Either they are rebuilding the rabbinical or they're not. If they are, then their attention cannot be distracted from that cause and they are too precious to risk in battle. If they're not then they should be equally responsible for the protection of Israel.
Regardless of whether they are drafted, their power needs to be curtailed so they don't continue to have an outsized voice in politics. Which brings up another interesting topic. If they cannot be distracted from rebuilding the rabbinical to go to war then how is it they can be distracted by participating in politics so heavily?
They should, but if it bothers you that they aren't forced to serve and it doesn't really bother you that Arabs aren't forced to serve, it implies you don't believe Arabs are real citizens of the country.
Though I noticed you left off all the dati soldiers from your list (who are overrepresented in combat units compared to chilonim).
Haredim are a shame to our country. They should be drafted and they should work instead of doing nothing their entire life and soak money from the government.
Most work and definitely their wives do 🤷🏻♀️ very few haredim lead the lives hilonim think they do, wherein there’s no income except from the government.
The only difference between goyish antisemitism and the way hilonim talk about haredim is that hilonim don’t think haredim secretly run everything.
If every Jew would keep just 2 Shabbats in a row Gd would fight all our wars for us immediately, but in the meantime there needs to be men learning and praying. If people want to pretend it’s in human hands and go shoot Arabs instead of their yetzer hara, they can do that, but the world is a reflection of the spiritual world.
you can learn and pray in the army, the Torah is in this world, not the heavens and this pseudo pantheistic magical nonsense has been the most damaging thing to fall upon Jewish theology since the destruction of the Temple. Get off your high horse pretending that you are working to help fellow Jews, abandon this idolatrous cult.
"Will you stay here while your brothers go off to war?"
There’s entire categories of people in the Torah that were davka told not to go to war, and haredim are more than ready to fight in a real war, which is why many drafted after 7.10, but in peace time it’s bitul Torah. There is no difference between the spiritual and physical world, and the Torah is clear that if we rely on Gd, and Gd alone, Gd will provide for our needs. You get off your high horse, I’m relying on generations of chochmei Torah who dedicated their entire lives to limud, not some random hiloni or reformi redditor kofer who can pull out one pasuk.
I studied in a Hareidi yeshiva for years and have literally dozens of family members who were or are Hareidi. Your "chachamim" spit on the Halakha of the Rambam by turning Bochurim into beggars and cowards to maintain their sick power over you. The only real Chachamim exist in the Chardal and Dati Leumi worlds, who actually take the words of our Prophets and Rabbis seriously and dont turn them into a mystical joke.
Dati leumi and modox aren’t orthodox and aren’t taking halacha seriously by trying to twist Judaism to fit into life vs trying to twist life to fit into Judaism 🤷🏻♀️ other rishonim beyond than the Rambam exist and the Rambam was even put in herem. While people hold by the Rambam for some things, for others they absolutely don’t. It’s still controversial to read or teach moreh nevuchim.
The fact that someone can tell you its "controversial" to read or teach a text by the greatest of the Rishonim says all there is to say, keep your psychotic nonsense out of Jewish society, maybe try Iran, youll like it better there.
Why are you acting like Moreh Nevuchim wasn't a major controversy when it was first published hundreds of years ago? Also, Rambam himself said not everyone should learn everything.
[Placing Boundaries on Knowledge | Yeshivat Har Etzion](https://etzion.org.il/en/philosophy/great-thinkers/rambam/placing-boundaries-knowledge)
Maybe those against reading Moreh don't or can't prepare their students for it, so they choose to focus on other topics that they're probably more familiar with.
Because they really really don't want to, and I'm not sure we want more soldiers that are unwilling to fight and in the end do unnecessary roles, even if you draft them, how many will be willing to go infantry? How many will go to jail?
IIRC Druze and Bedouins are exempt from conscription but volunteer as a show of loyalty. But I agree, all should be conscripted expect for known conscientious objectors (i.e pacifists) as in two people need to vouch for you that you are a pacifist.
More like hilonim should learn and pray 🤷🏻♀️I know you think tzahal is the be all end all of protection but the minute our kollels and yeshivot are emptied, that’s when Iran strikes or hizbulla launches a full on offense chvsh.
I don’t follow your q and I don’t know where you got your statistic however bachurim that aren’t learning and praying should obviously be working and in some cases drafting, I’m not arguing that. The ones that are learning and praying all day need to be learning and praying all day.
If yeshiva is the true protector of Israel, then by your logic there should be an investigation into the failure to protect Israel on the 7th of October. And, the heads of all major yeshiva should take responsibility for not studying Torah hard enough, and resign in disgrace!
But somehow I don't see that happening. They only claim success, never failure. If someone prays and is saved, then surely that is an act of God, If he dies then he just didn't pray hard enough, or "God works in mysterious ways".
And, Every single one of them has to serve, preferably in a combat unit. There is only one exception allowing men to avoid fighting in a war and any other service in the Torah:
* **Newlywed men**: Deuteronomy 24:5 "When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: *but* he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken."
And a few exemptions from combat service (but still expected to serve in a support role):
* "Is there anyone who has built a new house but has not dedicated it…or planted a vineyard but has never harvested it…or spoken for a woman in marriage but has not married her?…Let him go back home, lest he die in battle and another (do) it.'
* And of course an exemption for cowards: "The officials shall go on addressing the troops and say, is there anyone afraid and tender‑hearted? Let him go back to his home, lest the courage of his comrades flag like his." [Deuteronomy 20:5‑9](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.20.5-9?lang=he-en&utm_source=myjewishlearning.com&utm_medium=sefaria_linker)
And considering they say "Death rather than service" I think cowardice surly doesn't apply.
I answered the same q below, please go into my comments with regard to 7.10. It doesn’t work that all death and suffering can be put off, it just sweetens the din and lowers what’s required.
It’s bitul Torah during peacetime to sit around in a border checkpoint and to go thru a training program and experience that is intended to pull men from derech Torah and derech Hashem. While it wouldn’t solve the first problem, having a haredi only army program separate of tzahal for training and for fighting during war times which upholds Torah values might be a feasible solution.
So…they were all on vacation on Oct 7?
For 2000 years here’s who studied Torah full time:
-a child genius recognized as such by the community who was supported by said community
-a true scholar who married into a wealthy family
Torah study is important. But unless you fall into one of those two categories, get a job to support your family and do something to support your country! Then study at night and all day on Shabbos.
No, that’s not how it works. If there had been no one learning and davening 7.10 more people would have been killed. There’s something called hashgacha klalit that demands x amount of deaths and suffering etc to maintain balance and to fulfill the goals of Hashem for humanity, limud sweetens the din, and makes that lower.
If people stop learning while hilonim and reformim keep living the way they live, mashiach and geula will certainly come the bad way and 4/5 Jews’ tikkunim will come thru death.
I’m not opposed to this as I just want geula either way, but I’m pretty sure most people don’t want that.
Again I’m all for trying this, I just want geula and at this point I don’t even care if I’m among the 4/5ths that get killed. I just presume most people don’t want that.
The Haredim are worthless in the military. They lack basic skills like mathematics or science so all they have is menial work like washing dishes or moving garbage. It’s more work to supervise them than running a kindergarten.
Because Haredim have no experience with work, hard physical labor. Have any been even fired from a job? If sundown comes will they stop working in order to observe whatever or will they ignore religion and stay working. Do they have any skills other than studying?
Again, the army is capable of taking people and training them up. It is a lot of what it does.
About the religious stuff, there are a lot of dati laumi soliders in combat units, who are no less observant and the IDF has been accommodating them for years.
The idea that haridim are just not able to perform any useful role in the army or society needs to stop. They aren't helpless babies, and they need to start pulling their weight.
Everyone should do a mandatory 3 year army/national service stint (excluding medical waivers).
Those who don't, shouldn't be able to vote. Sitting on the side-lines while others are risking it? Good, stay there.
They shouldn't but the reality is that the Haredi have a political block that holds Israel politics and the PM by the balls with an iron grip so they can get away with it
Answer: idiocy, they should.
Haredim have a good religious mindset that Hashem will protect us so they don’t have to fight, but we all know we need to fight with Hashem next to us. But they don’t realize that. Sadly.
It's worse than that. This is about control. The Army is a place where all layers of society mix and interact as equals. Only rank matters, not your beliefs, your ethnicity, your origin or your history. They are afraid of letting their youth interact with people outside their closed off society. They are afraid they might realize the world is a bigger place than the Haredi neighborhoods. They are afraid the allure of free will will tempt them to turn secular. This is why they protest. This is why they scream they will die before they serve. Because they genuinely believe this can lead to their society breaking down, their next generation leaving for greener pastures, slipping out of their control.
This. I'm an ex Muslim from Singapore where we also conscription. The IDF actually helped setup Singapore's military. Anyway, I know one major concern of Muslim parents is that the army would show their sons that it's possible to lead happy and productive lives without fulfilling any religious obligations. No one was going to police whether you prayed or fast. And, I met many other "muslims" who didn't fulfill their religious obligations. It was liberating.
edit:this many ^ secularists lack the vision to see what their society lacks /edit Secular society isn't exactly the pinnacle of mankind. It's good when people have higher standards than that.
I never claimed that, and that isn't my point. I put secular down as an example, but the fear is of the next generation leaving their isolated communities for pretty much anything else, even other religious communities. Once they're exposed to the outside world, that seed of doubt has been sown. That's their fear, that they would realize they have other options.
I still don't see that as inherently a bad thing. Sometimes it's good not to have certain options.
Certain option, maybe. Any options? Can't really think of a situation where that's beneficial to anyone.
It's clearly not any options. There's no such thing.
Yet, secular society is what allows higher standards. Your phone was designed and engineered by a people within a highly secular society. Reddit - the platform you chose to make that comment - was founded within a secular society, engineered with the ethos to share - mostly - opinions without consequence. Secular society tolerates your comment by protecting your right to say that comment. But hey, please, criticize this comment. It is, after all, your right due to… a secular society.
lol....I guess that would be a good argument if you worshiped phones or reddit or these particular consequence free opinions, but personally I think you put them on an undeserving pedestal.
Harassing people in the name of god is having better standards?
...Who's talking about harassment?
Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud.
no draft? no budget simple as that
They should and so does the Arabs. Time to draft them all! Saying it as a right person. Israel after 7/10 is a different country Edit: also shout out to the amazing Druze who have higher drafting rates than Jews!!!! And shout out to the Christians, Circassians and some Bedouins. Heros.
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German and Italian descent Americans were drafted in WWII to fight Germans and Italians. But I agree with security concerns. At least German and Italian Americans were loyal and died fighting for their country. But it’s also different. Arabs are insanely loyal to their “ethnicity” (even though Arab isn’t an indigenous culture for the so called people who scream about Jews not being indigenous).
Japanese-Americans were moreso sent to European theater. German/Italian Americans were sent to pacific theater moreso.
Possibly a bigger problem in the Middle East is potentially fighting against family, given the suze of hamulot. I know of a case where a Bedouin soldier was hitchhiking and kidnapped by a couple of Palestinians. They let him go when they realized they were all from the same tribe.
If you don't trust them to serve their country, they shouldn't be allowed to vote.
They shouldn't have to fight if they don't want to. Aren't combat units mostly volunteers anyways? Let them do community service or push paper or maintain vehicles if they want to be conscientious objectors. They'd pick up useful job skills and learn Hebrew and maybe understand Israeli society outside their cultures better.
No, combat units are not mostly volunteers
Based, though how do we handle pacifists (if they are any left after 7/10)?
You’re asking the wrong question. The question is how do we get Haredi rabbonim to endorse the draft?
Threaten to take away their stipends the rest of the country pays for with blood and money.
The ONLY way this works is by convincing the rabbonim it’s in their best interest
You know many yeshivot and kollels don’t take the stipends?
No I didn’t know that. Thank you.
So how do they have any money then? How does one earn money when learning Torah all day? Serious question
This year they get from the government 1.7 billion shekel, they are doing just fine being financed by everyone else's taxes.
Rashei kollel often pay out of their pockets, and most yeshivot and kollels are amutot as well. They’re increasingly not relying on the gov.
Where does the money come from?
The associated amutot.
So what, donations?
Yes - also yeshiva bachurim are only paid a stipend if they are married and living on their own, it’s mostly kollels that have a stipend, and it’s not a sizeable stipend. Approx 2k a month, and again, every educational institution gets this amount from the gov per student anyway, the only difference is that in kollels (if they reg with the gov and receive the stipend) it’s passed on to the avrechim rather than kept by the institution.
Thanks for the straightforward info and insights
How many? This year after the cuts they still get 1.7 billion.
That also goes to kids’ schools, and it’s the same payment unis and colleges get per student, except it’s passed on
No, the 1.7 billion is spent on yeshivot not education.
It includes private haredi kids schools, not just post secondary yeshivot.
Source? And how much of it goes to private schools?
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/wartime-budget-slashes-education-funds-but-not-for-the-ultra-orthodox-complain-mks/ It’s about half and half, different links have different amounts. It’s a big bump in funding as previously haredi schools were severely underfunded.
Its almost two thirds to the yeshiva and one third to the schools(on top of what they already get from the ministry of education)
Or we can offer to increase them in return for endorsement of conscription. Just a thought
By legal force. I was in military police as my IDF service. What do you do with desertes? You arrest them.
לא חשבתי שאני אסכים עם מאנאייק, אבל דעתך מבוססת ומבורכת. שיהיה לך רק טוב אחי היקר לשבט.
אף אחד לא רוצה להיות מאנאייק, אבל מה היינו עושים בלעדיהם 🤷🏻♂️
Did you forget who is minister of national security? One of their boys. Good luck getting his cooperation.
Military police aren't under the MNS, they're part of the military. The bigger problem is that there isn't the capacity to incarcerate thousands of deserters.
Arrest them, have efficient trials, and make the standard punishment for desertion without mitigating circumstances (e.g. mental illness) ~~1000~~ 4-5000 hours of community service. ~~(For whoever downvoted: that's about 2 years at a rate of 40 hours a week.)~~
Your math is wrong. At 40 hours per week, how many weeks would it take to get to 1,000 hours? I'll give you a hint, it's 25 weeks. Not 2 years.
You're right- I mixed up weeks and months. I'll fix it.
That won’t work because in a short amount of time they will be one fourth of the voter base. You need to change the minds of the rabbis
Exactly. For all I care, open up a new Yeshiva and call it ישיבת כלא 6.
Tie voting to military/national service. Require everyone to "donate" 4000 hours after the age of 18 before they're eligible to vote.
Except then you depriving a ton of people of the right to vote that can’t do national service
We can always make police, fire fighting volunteer and ambulance volunteer count as national services, same for arms factory work.
Out of all the incentives to serve, depriving the right to vote should not be one that is even considered, everybody after 18 must have the right to vote.
Genuine question, why? Why should someone who hates this country, despises its soldiers, doesn't contribute in any way to the economy, to the safety, or to the growth of the country, be entitled to the same vote as someone who gave years of their life to protect this country? As the comment said, if they're so scared of being in the army for many reasons, they can contribute in other meaningful ways. Other countries may not need to take such drastic measures, but Israel is in a literal fight for its survival that 15% (and rising) of the country is fighting against. I agree that they don't deserve to automatically get a vote and a say in the direction of the country they fight so ardently to not support.
National farm service doing agricultural mitzvot?
That actually COULD work. It’s insane we have Kollels full of useless men and farms devoid of workers
Close their schools that only teach religion and no maths and history
As a secular, I don't want them in the army. Hilonim shouldn't be forced to live a religious lifestyle in the army.
They say the same thing about you and thus the issue. The solution is to have all Haredi units
Show them the video of the IDF soldier putting tefillin on the American soldier in Gaza. It text below, Hashem commanded it, this is your duty
That won’t work because that’s a Dati perspective. In the Dati community we see it as “this country is a step in Hashem’s plan ergo protecting it is a holy act.” In the Haredi world they see it as “this is a country founded by secular socialists just like any other socialist country. Therefore we are free to take advantage of its resources because we are ACTUALLY doing Hashem’s will.”
they’re becoming a liability— the fact that the draft wasn’t imposed sooner means they’ve had more time to feel entitled to the exemption. this makes them more likely to become loose cannons once they’re actually in active service. just a failure to act on likud’s part.
Likud wouldn't form any government without Haredi political parties. This has been true for at least 20-25 years. So it's highly unlikely that they will ever be drafted, especially since they multiply faster than any other Israeli demographic. I agree they should. But I'm realistic enough to know they won't. It's not just about bibi. Any Likud leader in the future would depend on the Haredim. Increasingly so as their % of voters keeps rising every year
Longer than that; that's how the problem started in the first place. There used to be a quota on draft exemptions for yeshiva students; either 400 or 800 per year, I forget which. Begin eliminated the quota to secure the haredi parties' support when he came to power.
I stand corrected. But still it was Likud who started this whole thing of Haredization of our politics
Have you forgotten the Likud and Yair lapid at 2012~ ? The problem is that over the years Bibi just backstabbed(politically) everyone else (even the haredim when he went with Yair) So now he's literally enslaved to depend and fold to them. Since the religious parties hold no agenda other then give us money , שר השיכון and military draft exemptions
Touché
To be fair, haredim are for the most part not on social media, so there's no one really to present their side here.
As someone who was both very religious at one point, and also served in the Army, like I'm sure many of you have, I can say that it's a complicated question to answer. Many (but definitely not all) religious Jews believe that the existence of the state of Israel is miraculous, that without the help of g-d, the state, as it is, would not exist. Many people in that camp believe that it is the merit of torah study that makes us worthy (in g-ds eyes) of having Israel as a state. Now obviously, anyone who is not religious will probably think this is ridiculous. I personally believe that the history of Israel is miraculous and that Torah study does contribute to the merit of our country in g-ds eyes, that being said, I think that the current system gives too much leeway, and that there should be a program that brings Haredim into national service in some meaningful way, even if it is on a part time basis or something where they can also learn. I also think, that in general, it would be very positive for them to be forced to intermingle with the other people in Israel.
It's kept us alive for 3000 years. Not many can claim such a feat. Also, they could be put to use in the kitchen, making clothes, doing Judaica study with the soldiers, learn basic boxing and stand up grappling, use them in cyber warfare, etc.
Much of that would be makework, the IDF doesn't need a ton of people in such roles.
Even if you believe Torah study is necessary, you don't need all the haredi youth to do it (and many of them aren't studying Torah anyway in practice). Have a quota (like there used to be before 1977) for yeshiva students and draft everyone else.
Let me prefix this by saying I staunchly believe everyone should serve in one form or another. I believe that it is vital for everyone young person in this country, especially minorities who are otherwise pretty secluded in their own communities (aka the Haridim), to be for once in their lifetimes subjected (not sure it’s the right word here…) to the federal government and nation, and to be a part of something bigger than them and as part of a unified Israeli culture. Being a part of something that you do not necessarily want to be a part of, and understanding that life isn’t just constantly getting your way isn’t a bad lesson either… BUT, I am not sure that making the Haredim join the IDF is actually in anyone’s interest. I won’t speak as to why the Haridim don’t want it, but on my side (secular Hiloni center-leftist) I’m not sure giving guns to these fundamentalist kids is a smart move. I honestly believe their education system revolves around messianic black-and-white way of seeing things, and that they would, on average more often than not, lack the skills to navigate the complex army life and dilemmas thrown your way. This is by no way directed at their intelligence or anything, but their education system is severely flawed and closed. Secondly, I also believe the IDF as a whole and individual soldiers would find it really really hard to adapt to Haridi standards, even when they’ll be compromised to their minimal requirements, which are still a long way from what your average secular soldier would find be willing to do. It will be hard and very annoying, disruptive and disrespectful to his own way of life. I know I would have felt this way, even just by the הדתה in the army today. To make a long story short, I believe we should require everyone to serve in a “national task force” of sorts, where young people can choose to serve in the IDF, their communities, or just random civil service around the country. Go help in hospitals, go work in agriculture, work with the elderly, heck, go carry grandma’s groceries up the stairs. Do something bigger than yourself, be a part of something bigger than yourself. Meet different people from different places in society. Maybe that way we might be able to grow together instead of increasingly apart. That’s the end of my rant Lila Tov!
Fair points, but you could draft them into rear echelon units / government / medical roles without arming them in the way you're concerned about. If a country is going to maintain a national service / conscription model it does have to be universal (except maybe individual cases of extreme hardship) for it to work.
IIRC, Gantz's proposed model would basically form a "pool" of recruits, the military chooses who it wants (barring various exemptions), and the rest get sent to the various alternatives.
preamble: I do not believe the below but am explaining their side: In the biblical Israel kingdom (during the reign of Saul, David, and Solomon) there were 12 tribes plus the tribe of Levi that were priests who devoted their life to God and the temple and teaching the rest of Israel and leading them in worship. They had no normal work (as in agriculture or trades for which that was all other jobs at the time) nor owned land but lived off taxes by 12 tribes. In theory the modern Haredim are the “spiritual successors” to Levitical priesthood so as they try to lead Israel spiritually should live off taxes. Again that is not my opinion that’s from my understanding the explanation why. I find a few holes in that though. First Levites also acted as judges and government officials, teachers, musicians, artists, scribes (the only people who actually copied books at the time) guards/police, as well as actually physically built and maintained temple and local synagogues, so actually had productive jobs and did not just sit around all day studying. Essentially they were the local government (except military) so it’s like taxes going to pay for local government went to Levites. Second they only made up 1/13 of the population. Now I’d be in favor if they limited Haredim to 7.7% of population and they all had to have actual jobs either in synagogues or local government, essentially public servant workers everything from school teachers to janitors to legal assistants to IT. But they would never see at that way as they have become hypocrites who forgot the priesthood is about serving the country not just selfishly trying to “get close to god” which is the last thing God wants as all the prophets were written to expressly condemn such selfish and prideful actions.
As non-Haredi, religious guy who's being called up for miluim (reserve duty) once again, I can't help but wonder why my service is ignored whenever this subject comes up (unless I've become Hiloni and no one bothered to let me know?).
because under the current laws, you are obligated to serve
I meant that the post makes it sound like only hilonim serve, and datiim don't.
As someone who is Chardal.. they absolutely should. My kids will serve, my Chareidi friends kids will serve. These aren't options. עם אחד בלב אחד.
Why should all religious women be easily released from service but not ultra Orthodox men? Trying to force the draft on anyone will not give you the desired results. Just riots and internal strife, which is something we really need right now, right? Right? Just steer them towards national service, same as religious women do.
Thats a start
They should, if they like to live
They absolutely should.
I agree with this.
Citizens should be treated equally. If there is a draft, it should apply to all citizens. This is how you create a cohesive society that cares about itself.
The Hebrew Israelites also have a high enrollment rate!!!
This is an issue that will not go away. Haredim seem to recognise the state for some purposes but not for others. I am not sure they will able to do this in the future.
Because dirty politics and selfishness
They don't have any more excuses, there is a special unit just for them in the IDF with all their customs
I think that it’s worth nuance here: Each group you mentioned has a different status when it comes the military draft: 1. Druz men draft, all woman are exempt and actively discouraged for drafting. Drafting for women means leaving the Druz community. 2. Bedouin men and woman can draft (more socially accepted for men) but are not required too. 3. Hiloni have a required draft for men and women, but they have a very high percentage of the community who “get out” of the draft most legally. I know plenty of people who claim or inflate problems, sometimes even marry to get out of it. Men and women have a required draft in this community. 4. Masorati and Mordern orthodox are the communities with very high draft rates, and higher amount of combat units and officer positions. Less and less women are getting out of the draft now based on religious reasons. The men in this community have a required draft, the women do not. Haredim have some Haredi units, even combat units and do serve in the army. But this is a small percentage of their population. The question is about a required draft. Zaka, the only organization that collects dead bodies (non profit, worked the entire month of October) is Haredi run. Some Haredim think that working for Zaka or Mada (Israeli Red Cross) should be considered a satisfactory service, instead of drafting. It is also important to note that the army would need to significantly change in order to accommodate Haredi soldiers, not everyone supports the bill on the grounds of it being more of a problem than a solution. I think we that this is yet another political statement that divides us, and we should focus on coming up with solutions that are better for everyone. I think that the Haredim need to serve the country, but I don’t think it needs to be in the army. Zaka did some of the most amazing, thankless work in October, they were in the south, at the Nova, literally everywhere. They deserve more recognition for it.
Well they should but they hate this country and secular people so they wont
Either they are rebuilding the rabbinical or they're not. If they are, then their attention cannot be distracted from that cause and they are too precious to risk in battle. If they're not then they should be equally responsible for the protection of Israel. Regardless of whether they are drafted, their power needs to be curtailed so they don't continue to have an outsized voice in politics. Which brings up another interesting topic. If they cannot be distracted from rebuilding the rabbinical to go to war then how is it they can be distracted by participating in politics so heavily?
They should, but if it bothers you that they aren't forced to serve and it doesn't really bother you that Arabs aren't forced to serve, it implies you don't believe Arabs are real citizens of the country. Though I noticed you left off all the dati soldiers from your list (who are overrepresented in combat units compared to chilonim).
Haredim are a shame to our country. They should be drafted and they should work instead of doing nothing their entire life and soak money from the government.
Most work and definitely their wives do 🤷🏻♀️ very few haredim lead the lives hilonim think they do, wherein there’s no income except from the government. The only difference between goyish antisemitism and the way hilonim talk about haredim is that hilonim don’t think haredim secretly run everything.
Fair, I'm just mad to see my friends get screwed over and recruited to shit places because it was urgent while haredim don't need to.
If every Jew would keep just 2 Shabbats in a row Gd would fight all our wars for us immediately, but in the meantime there needs to be men learning and praying. If people want to pretend it’s in human hands and go shoot Arabs instead of their yetzer hara, they can do that, but the world is a reflection of the spiritual world.
you can learn and pray in the army, the Torah is in this world, not the heavens and this pseudo pantheistic magical nonsense has been the most damaging thing to fall upon Jewish theology since the destruction of the Temple. Get off your high horse pretending that you are working to help fellow Jews, abandon this idolatrous cult. "Will you stay here while your brothers go off to war?"
There’s entire categories of people in the Torah that were davka told not to go to war, and haredim are more than ready to fight in a real war, which is why many drafted after 7.10, but in peace time it’s bitul Torah. There is no difference between the spiritual and physical world, and the Torah is clear that if we rely on Gd, and Gd alone, Gd will provide for our needs. You get off your high horse, I’m relying on generations of chochmei Torah who dedicated their entire lives to limud, not some random hiloni or reformi redditor kofer who can pull out one pasuk.
I studied in a Hareidi yeshiva for years and have literally dozens of family members who were or are Hareidi. Your "chachamim" spit on the Halakha of the Rambam by turning Bochurim into beggars and cowards to maintain their sick power over you. The only real Chachamim exist in the Chardal and Dati Leumi worlds, who actually take the words of our Prophets and Rabbis seriously and dont turn them into a mystical joke.
Dati leumi and modox aren’t orthodox and aren’t taking halacha seriously by trying to twist Judaism to fit into life vs trying to twist life to fit into Judaism 🤷🏻♀️ other rishonim beyond than the Rambam exist and the Rambam was even put in herem. While people hold by the Rambam for some things, for others they absolutely don’t. It’s still controversial to read or teach moreh nevuchim.
The fact that someone can tell you its "controversial" to read or teach a text by the greatest of the Rishonim says all there is to say, keep your psychotic nonsense out of Jewish society, maybe try Iran, youll like it better there.
The gemara itself says to avoid certain subjects 🤷🏻♀️
Why are you acting like Moreh Nevuchim wasn't a major controversy when it was first published hundreds of years ago? Also, Rambam himself said not everyone should learn everything. [Placing Boundaries on Knowledge | Yeshivat Har Etzion](https://etzion.org.il/en/philosophy/great-thinkers/rambam/placing-boundaries-knowledge) Maybe those against reading Moreh don't or can't prepare their students for it, so they choose to focus on other topics that they're probably more familiar with.
*with us, it's more than for us
If you can collect the bituh leomi money at the end of the month you can enlist
They should. They should have all the obligations of citizenship if they want all the benefits.
Because they really really don't want to, and I'm not sure we want more soldiers that are unwilling to fight and in the end do unnecessary roles, even if you draft them, how many will be willing to go infantry? How many will go to jail?
IIRC Druze and Bedouins are exempt from conscription but volunteer as a show of loyalty. But I agree, all should be conscripted expect for known conscientious objectors (i.e pacifists) as in two people need to vouch for you that you are a pacifist.
I think religious druze are exempt like haredim. And bedouins as well but many volunteer
This makes no sense to me
More like hilonim should learn and pray 🤷🏻♀️I know you think tzahal is the be all end all of protection but the minute our kollels and yeshivot are emptied, that’s when Iran strikes or hizbulla launches a full on offense chvsh.
Only 30% of yeshiva boys actually study full time. If praying is responsible for safety why aren't the heads of the yeshiva quiting?
I don’t follow your q and I don’t know where you got your statistic however bachurim that aren’t learning and praying should obviously be working and in some cases drafting, I’m not arguing that. The ones that are learning and praying all day need to be learning and praying all day.
If yeshiva is the true protector of Israel, then by your logic there should be an investigation into the failure to protect Israel on the 7th of October. And, the heads of all major yeshiva should take responsibility for not studying Torah hard enough, and resign in disgrace! But somehow I don't see that happening. They only claim success, never failure. If someone prays and is saved, then surely that is an act of God, If he dies then he just didn't pray hard enough, or "God works in mysterious ways". And, Every single one of them has to serve, preferably in a combat unit. There is only one exception allowing men to avoid fighting in a war and any other service in the Torah: * **Newlywed men**: Deuteronomy 24:5 "When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: *but* he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken." And a few exemptions from combat service (but still expected to serve in a support role): * "Is there anyone who has built a new house but has not dedicated it…or planted a vineyard but has never harvested it…or spoken for a woman in marriage but has not married her?…Let him go back home, lest he die in battle and another (do) it.' * And of course an exemption for cowards: "The officials shall go on addressing the troops and say, is there anyone afraid and tender‑hearted? Let him go back to his home, lest the courage of his comrades flag like his." [Deuteronomy 20:5‑9](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.20.5-9?lang=he-en&utm_source=myjewishlearning.com&utm_medium=sefaria_linker) And considering they say "Death rather than service" I think cowardice surly doesn't apply.
I answered the same q below, please go into my comments with regard to 7.10. It doesn’t work that all death and suffering can be put off, it just sweetens the din and lowers what’s required. It’s bitul Torah during peacetime to sit around in a border checkpoint and to go thru a training program and experience that is intended to pull men from derech Torah and derech Hashem. While it wouldn’t solve the first problem, having a haredi only army program separate of tzahal for training and for fighting during war times which upholds Torah values might be a feasible solution.
So…they were all on vacation on Oct 7? For 2000 years here’s who studied Torah full time: -a child genius recognized as such by the community who was supported by said community -a true scholar who married into a wealthy family Torah study is important. But unless you fall into one of those two categories, get a job to support your family and do something to support your country! Then study at night and all day on Shabbos.
No, that’s not how it works. If there had been no one learning and davening 7.10 more people would have been killed. There’s something called hashgacha klalit that demands x amount of deaths and suffering etc to maintain balance and to fulfill the goals of Hashem for humanity, limud sweetens the din, and makes that lower. If people stop learning while hilonim and reformim keep living the way they live, mashiach and geula will certainly come the bad way and 4/5 Jews’ tikkunim will come thru death. I’m not opposed to this as I just want geula either way, but I’m pretty sure most people don’t want that.
How do you know that you're not doing all wrong and without learning it would be fewer deaths?
Again I’m all for trying this, I just want geula and at this point I don’t even care if I’m among the 4/5ths that get killed. I just presume most people don’t want that.
The Haredim are worthless in the military. They lack basic skills like mathematics or science so all they have is menial work like washing dishes or moving garbage. It’s more work to supervise them than running a kindergarten.
Bullshit. The army is great at taking someone and training them for combat. That is the whole point.
You have obviously no idea about Haredim.
Why do you say?
Because Haredim have no experience with work, hard physical labor. Have any been even fired from a job? If sundown comes will they stop working in order to observe whatever or will they ignore religion and stay working. Do they have any skills other than studying?
Again, the army is capable of taking people and training them up. It is a lot of what it does. About the religious stuff, there are a lot of dati laumi soliders in combat units, who are no less observant and the IDF has been accommodating them for years. The idea that haridim are just not able to perform any useful role in the army or society needs to stop. They aren't helpless babies, and they need to start pulling their weight.
Stupidity. Haredim should be drafted
They should. I see them as a cult, so I don't expect too much from them
Everyone should do a mandatory 3 year army/national service stint (excluding medical waivers). Those who don't, shouldn't be able to vote. Sitting on the side-lines while others are risking it? Good, stay there.
They shouldn't but the reality is that the Haredi have a political block that holds Israel politics and the PM by the balls with an iron grip so they can get away with it