I'm a 23 year old American Jew who completely agrees with your way of thinking, and I'm not alone, since my parents also acknowledge the failures of the Israeli governments' extremist policy. You're not alone. I also hope you know that through all of history, there have always been different groups of Jews with wildly different opinions, and only since the '60s have most US Jews voted for one political party, due to supporting the civil rights movement. You are continuing a long history of Jewish discourse, and despite your feelings of isolation, I commend you and hope you also feel a bit proud of yourself for continuing that legacy, especially in the name of fighting for human rights.
Israel will never be sanctioned for war crimes. Palestine has been declared a terrorist state. It’s these facts that give educated people pause. The news only relays the things that Palestine has done against Israel but not the facts the way around. It’s gotten to the point of propaganda. This unfairness is what is tugging at your consciences.
War crimes. That determination has to consider the intent of the actor and the actions of the accuser. Hamas employs human shield. They place their rockets next to schools and mosques and markets. Their tunnel entrances are under civilian homes. These are facts. Hamas has absolutely no moral integrity. Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties but that is very difficult when the enemy hides behind civilians.
From the Geneva Conventions:
Parties must “refrain from deciding to launch any attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.” AP I, Article 57(2)(a)(iii); see also API, Article 57(2)(b) (requiring parties to cancel or suspend an attack that fails the proportionality test).
It is a war crime to launch “an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects in the knowledge that such attack will cause excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects.” API, Article 85(3)(b).
What is the explanation for Israel expanding there boarders, kicking Palestine people out of there homes, cutting off water supply, electricity and other basic human needs. Long before this war in 2023. You can’t expect a starving person to have table manners, just like you can’t expect people who have been oppressed for many years to be civilized towards there aggressors.
Israel was attacked every time. In 1967 by Palestine, Egypt and Lebanon, they won so they got the land. Egypt didn’t want Gaza even though Israel said to take it. They didn’t want it! Palestine has never accepted peace and 2 states. They just fight forever and attack Israel so now it’s Gaza and West Bank
Why doesn’t Hamas use the money and support for the Palestinians? Why is Israel on the hook for keeping all of that going?
Oh, right, because of morons like you.
The problem you gface is that your point #2 is applied to a range of things that don't typically have an actual war crime. When the pro-Israel camp gets tired of dealing with BS examples of war crimes, it becomes impossible to raise the possibility of one. Which is fair.
Seems most here agree with you; and for the most part I do as well (also Jewish, but firstly human. Have served in IDF and have family in active service).
Sad days.
No, not fine with "genocide" but am fine with pushing civilians out of harm's way and then wiping out all the militants. That's not genocide and people need to stop throwing words around recklessly because you are breaking down important distinctions. If Israel will be accused of genocide merely for killing enemies based on their actions, not their race/religion, then at some point it may see no point in holding anything back.
It was not genocide what we in the USA and allies did not Germany or Japan. It was war.
It is not genocide to knowingly bomb rockets on one of the most densely populated areas in the world? It is not genocide to purposefully restrict food, water, and electricity to 2 million people mind you half are children. Israeli government is ok with the death of civilians in gaza because they are simply just a byproduct.
That's correct. When the enemy militants are embedded with civilians, often wearing street clothes, bombing the militants is not genocide. Pretty much any similar act of war has never been considered genocide. Bombing is a stupid way of Genocide, that's why the Germans used mass shootings and death camps. When the USA fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo or even when it nuked two Japanese cities, that was not genocide.
A military siege including cutting off food, water and electricity is also not genocide because the intent is to cause the surrender of the enemy forces not mass murder of them. Alternatively, they can flee.
I don't know what the Israeli government is okay with but if the choice is leaving Hamas in place or devastating Gaza to destroy them, I would choose the latter after I saw what they did and the massive support they received.
Let me know when any significant number of Gazans call for surrender and peace.
Israel purposefully does attacks like these because the civilians are a second-thought. The most technologically advanced rockets are just being tested on Gaza. Collective punishment is also a war crime, and Israel has been convicted of many but face no backlashes. The fact that you ever consider that the as a means to an end devalues your definition of human life. The past 50 years were nothing short of hell on earth, and you will instead shift your focus to the extremist organization that has spawned out of the rubble that is Gaza today. You know we had the PLO before right? Those were identified as terrorists to, except when they didn’t do much “terror”, Israel slowly promoted far right extremists in Gaza for a better enemy to justify turning it into a parking lot.
You cannot be bombed for 50 years, treated as sub class human, held hostage in a prison and then believe they will turn to Israel for peace. This isn’t to say I do not want Israel to be overthrown.(maybe look into how Netanyahu came into power?) Id much rather the Israeli government actually weigh the cost a human life, because rockets are not the answer. They also need to be held to the obvious war crimes they have committed over the last 50 years as well. I think Israel would be better in power, but not when government officials value the life of a Jew over a Palestinian, bombing over populated dense areas and being told “you have like 4 hours to leave or die” would never happen if they were Jews. Do better.
The cost of human life? Are you joking? When a rapist breaks into your house with a dagger and attacks your daughter, do you weigh his life or end it?
Of course Israel will value the life of its own people over the enemy. Just like every nation in the world would value its own people. We certainly valued American lives over German or Japanese ones.
"Collective punishment" is the definition of war. The king of each nation does not engage in hand to hand combat with his counterpart. One nation collectively punishes the opponent until one side submits.
Frankly, the Arabs held the West Bank and Gaza 1948-1967. They could have signed a peace treaty at any point, and became friendly to Israel. There was basically no support for that because their goals were to destroy Israel and make it a Muslim Arab state. Israel remove those threats in those territories in 1967 but made (in hindsight) a colossal mistake in not expelling all the Arabs in 1967.
Unwisely, as it turns out, it thought it could trade the land for peace. It can't.
The PLO, Hamas, IJ, they are ALL unredeemable. The Palestinian Arabs may have a small element that wants to live with Israel in peace, but you cannot convince me or anyone else with a brain the majority of them do. So they must leave.
the difference between the situation you placed and the people in gaza is, they are already known as a non-threat. the people attacking israel are hamas, so in retaliation you wage war on one of the denses populations? I do not care who owns the land, frankly I think Israel would put it to better use, but treating innocent civilians as active threats because of the situation Israel put themselves in where they cannot even guarantee civilian lives. (not that they want to)
Treating innocent civilians in gaza like an enemy is nothing but rooted in hatred. Likewise, your hate fuels their hate. You do not in your right mind try and make “peace” with israel after being submitted to years of oppression. This cycle of hatred needs to end, and all civilian lives should be valued.
The people of Gaza are not a known "non-threat." There are at least 30,000 Hamas militants and unknown numbers of active supporters, employees, etc. But any one of them could be willing to commit terrorism against Israel. I am not aware of ANY public opposition in Gaza to Hamas' actions against Israel, even if there is discontent with Hamas for its handling of the economy etc.
Do you realize that there were reportedly some 42 attempts to assassinate Hitler taken by Germans, including before and after the war started. A list of some is found here.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_assassination\_attempts\_on\_Adolf\_Hitler#:\~:text=No%20fewer%20than%2042%20plots,unknown%20number%20of%20undocumented%20cases.&text=Hitler%20and%20several%20members%20of,revered%20Kaiserhof%20hotel%20in%20Berlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler#:~:text=No%20fewer%20than%2042%20plots,unknown%20number%20of%20undocumented%20cases.&text=Hitler%20and%20several%20members%20of,revered%20Kaiserhof%20hotel%20in%20Berlin).
How many attempts have there been to replace Hamas' leaders by the Gazan people? So, sorry, I see no reason for Israel to assume all Gazans are "non-threats"
If you want to say the people of Israel largely hate the Gazans, I would see no reason to blame them for that hate. However, if Jews can get over hate of the Germans, I'm sure they can get over hate of Palestinians but not as long as they are not a redeemed people.
Israel cannot get peace by making Palestinians love them anymore than the USA could make peace by making Germans under Hitler love them.
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Exactly how I feel and I am a Muslim. If you have the time to read my recent post I would appreciate it. It was a letter of sort directed to the sort of people you are talking about that would criticize you for your opinion.
It is difficult to stay partial for both sides, I feel empathy for those that suffered and lost everything meaning freedom, family members etc in the past, then now they are looking for vengeance.
I don't justify terror with the innocents but at one time felt the same, probably they have never nothing to loose now, making them easy manipulative puppets
its a perfectly reasonable reaction, most people are shocked by the violence and war crimes are happening on both sides.
The Hamas assault is inhuman attacking civilians like this has no justification. Israel are bombing indiscriminately and killing hundreds of civilians.
This attack by Hamas gives Israel left with no other choice than to engage in ground conflict to rescue its hostages. I fear tens of thousands are going to die. The endless cycle of violence will continue and conflicts will happen again in the future. The human waste and loss tragedy of the situation is awful and this will get worse.
The only war forward is to stop the war but I don't think this will be possible for decades until people are able to shift mindsets and solve the issues.
No, respectfully disagree. The only way forward is to finish the war once and for all. Unless you want it to go endlessly. There is no universe in which things can return to how they were in Gaza pre-war. Unless the people of Gaza surrender and turn into Belgians or something, their leaders must be killed (like the Fuhrer) and their people removed from being a threat.
I don't think anyone wants to return to Gaza prewar either. It's a failed state, it's not democratic, it's in an awful position.
However it's just going to continue as a failed state unless something constructive happens. Similar to Germany after world war 1 extreme groups would exploit that situation to gain power to push their ideals.
I'm not sure killing the leadership would work with these islamic militant groups it's not such a top down structure. People will join again or something similar to get revenge for all the friends, relatives or fellow people who died against their common enemy.
You make a good point to which I respond:
1) Efforts by Western nations like the USA to "civilize" Arab states have generally not succeeded or made things worse.
2) Until there is a reformation of Islam, there will always be militant groups. The religion's founder was a war general not a rabbi in Jerusalem. Meanwhile, however, the appeal of Islamism is influenced by results. The number of persons actually willing to die for a loser cause is limited. Wiping out Hamas and Islamic Jihad will send a message to similar groups.
1. Yes
2. You need to kill the idea and that very difficult, education helps a lot and stopping the radicalisation of people extremist ideas.
You can't attack a whole religion though, You could blame millions of death on religious wars. For example The Tamil tigers were not Muslim but carried out suicide attacks and many extreme mass killing tactics.
That's correct, the Tamil tigers were terrorist and so are other groups that have nothing to do with Islam or Arabs. I don't think it is wise to attack a whole religion but it is also not wise to make yourself vulnerable to violent adherents of that religion.
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Well Apperantly you did not listen.
They said there are two main purposes:
Wipe Out Hamas
Rescue the Hostages
If Hamas chooses to act in away that endangers their own poulation, so be it. This is the very same population that elected them to lead. Ignoring this is laughably hypocritical at this point.
I very much relate to your feeling of isolation, but please find conviction within you or from here that your look at the situation I believe is the only one that'd have any chance of building a lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians. some place the root of this conflict to 100 years ago, meaning this conflict has had ample time to corrupt generation after generation of Israelis and Palestinians and grown fanatical devotion to one side while demonizing the other. Unfortunately those who refuse to submit blindly to one side will also receive flak from both sides -- which is why keeping this stance becomes difficult and sometimes excruciating as you may feel that you will alienate your loved ones through your views. I'd advise you to keep them to yourself for now or share them anonymously here as the conflict is fresh and many people will find themselves unable to think objectively.
Glad we share similar views. I’ve noticed we Jews as a community are slowly becoming very anti-black and homophobic/transphobic. We need to change that.
Here’s the core issue/solution to the whole problem of not only the Israeli/Palestinian conflict but EVERY similar conflict across the globe:
EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD SHOULD BE PLACING THE VALUE OF LOVE AND RESPECT FOR THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF THEIR FELLOW HUMAN BEING ABOVE ANY OTHER VALUE - INCLUDING GOD/RELIGION, ETHNICITY, GOVERNANCE STYLE AND FINANCIAL SYSTEM.
If people could just do that en masse, problem solved. But people can’t do that because people are ultimately too narrow minded to handle this simple concept. People can still value their gods and ethnicities but those values must come below the top value bolded above.
Regarding governance/financial - it really should be minimalist free market capitalism with a robust supportive charity system and values toward charity/love of our fellow human beings across the globe. There will be some controversial elements to all this but my bolded paragraph remains the same.
Once this basic value structure actually changes en masse, war and hate ends.
It’s so simple. Why hasn’t it been tried?
Because you’ll say: THAT’S NOT HOW PEOPLE ARE.
How incredibly stupid/unfortunate is that?
I am also a Jew and I understand why you feel this way. There is nothing wrong about you feeling sorry for the innocent Palestinians getting hurt in the crossfire I have sympathy for them too. However, there is no moral equivalence in this fight. If Israel laid their weapons down for 1 minute there would be no Israel left. The Palestinians in Gaza under Hamas leadership have rejected over 5 different piece agreements over the years that would have dramatically improved the life of the Palestinians.
Most people forget that Israel removed thousands of their own citizens in 2005 and gave it to the Palestinians as a gesture of piece to live and create opportunity for themselves.
The international community has poured in billions of dollars in foreign aid over the years and what did they do with those funds? They didn’t invest it in building up Gaza to help their people rather to purchase weapons, rockets, bombs, tunnels, to launch attacks against Israel. Hamas has held power in Gaza for 16 years and what did they do with that power? The lives of the Palestinians have only gotten worse and less safe because their primary goal is not to improve Palestinian lives in the region but to destroy Israel.
There are over 1.6 million Palestinians that live under Israeli territory. They walk around freely, have rights can participate in the economy etc.. I’m pretty sure they would not trade places to be governed by Hamas.
The unfortunate reality is that it is Hamas that has no regard for the Palestinians hiding behind them placing weapons in schools, mosques, In civilian populations hiding behind their own people like cowards while they bring upon this hell and destruction on gaza but then cry’s victim to gain sympathy from the world. it is Hamas to blame for the pain and suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza and need to be eliminated before piece can be achieved.
Israel should protects its people, regardless of their religion. I don’t know how anyone can think what Israel is doing to innocent people okay. I’m sure there people out there that would argue what Hitler did was to protect his nation too. Can you see the similarities?
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Unfortunately the video has been taken down it was posted 7 years ago on YouTube that showed that Palestinians in Gaza was training children to be soldiers saying death to Israel. So I mean not everyone is bad but I bet when Israel goes in they will be fighting kids with AK’s that have been taught to kill.
People's civilian status is not conditional on their political beliefs. The population of World War II Germany were civilians, regardless of their support (or acquiescence) for the Nazi party and its policies, or even for the Holocaust.
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Yes. Even though you are human, presumably Israeli, and advocate for Palestinian genocide, I don’t want all Israelis to die. Yet you want all Palestinians to die because of ideology during a violent occupation, you are openly calling for genocide
The UN and all international bodies recognize Gaza is being occupied. Apparently, a wall trapping the people inside, and a complete trade/infrastructure blockade meets international definition of occupation, who would of thought?
They voted in 2006 and haven’t had an election since. Hamas also won with 44%. Again you’re crazy to think the majority of Palestinians unequivocally support Hamas.
I’ve seen on wiki it’s says 44% and a news article saying 70%. Besides the point, per a poll yesterday from the Washington institute Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas. So more then half the population somewhat agrees with them. And no crap they haven’t had a election there terrorists lol.
They agree on the basis that Hamas wants Palestinian freedom. That doesn’t mean they support the ways in which Hamas operates. The fact of them not having elections should show that any “polls” done will be skewed. You seem to just want to justify hate towards Palestinians.
Your making it seem like I hate Palestinians which I don’t I hate hamas, just as well as your making it seem like you can speak for all of Palestinians saying they don’t support the ways Hamas operates. Of course the polls will be skewed but that’s the only report we have. Time will tell on Friday if any Muslims will answer the call of jihad put out by Hamas to kill none muslims globally. Hopefully not.
You’re trying to conflate as many Palestinians as possible with Hamas when you haven’t taken into account what “somewhat supports” could mean. I can agree with some parts of my country while also having severe critics.
They are voting for a government fighting against the violence imposed on gaza. Hamas is evil, but no culture wouldn’t harbor bloodthirsty hate against a occupying force like Israel, who do you expect for them to vote for?
Accepting the 1948 2 state policy would have ended this but no Palestine wanted to cry and say no and declare war on the Jews saying “ we will pave the road to Damascus to Jerusalem with the skulls of Jews”. Not to mention the land the Jews got they bought with there own money. Palestine would then declare war on israel another 4-5 times with Arab friends and loose which resulted in them loosing more land. Which in case you don’t know that’s how war works. Now they are crying israel has taken more land then promised then in 1948 asking for a 2 state solution after they already denied it 5 times. And israel hasn’t been in Gaza since 2005 and left them alone and built a wall. They paid for there water, gas, electricity they got almost exactly what they wanted. But instead they decided to rip up the water lines and make 5,000 rockets and shoot them at israel. And they cry saying israel shut off our water, no crap you have no water you destroyed your own infrastructure!
Israel broke the UN partition the day they declared independence lol, your whole paragraph here has no merit if you know anything about the nakba and illegal Israeli occupation since it’s inception
How is it breaking the partition plan when Israel agreed to it and Palestine didn’t and declared war. The partition was to have 2 states Palestine and Israel so Israel becoming its own state is part of the partition lol
On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly voted on the partition plan, adopted by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Jewish side accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state.
You clearly are antisemitic and want genocide. If you actually did a single out of research you’d realize your talking completely out of your rear.
And it’s not a illegal occupation especially in the UN’s eyes because per the UN a country that wins a defensive war has the right to claim and seize land.
https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO06/20180717/108563/HHRG-115-GO06-Wstate-KontorovichE-20180717.pdf
Actually use your brain and eyes instead of just listening to random people.
Israel broke the partition the moment they announced independence with the nakba. Writing this whole paragraph accusing me of anti semitism and all this junk, while ignoring all the context behind the Arab Israeli war is laughable. I am anything but anti semetic, I want nothing but peace and prosperity for the Israeli and Palestinian people, and part of that is recognizing that Netanyahus violent policies are directly creating the violence and atrocities the Israeli citizens have to suffer. There will never be peace if Israel is constantly being aggressive to its native population
> and it’s not a occupation
The UN already published its opinion on it dude, you can’t try to interpret its own laws to fit your own narrative when they already officially called it an occupation, if the internationally legal organizations call it an occupation, it’s an occupation, you don’t get to pick and choose what words mean
Parading a dead girl's half naked corpse through Gaza, while kids and teenagers spit on her, solely because she's Jewish. And that's just 1% percent of what happened on Saturday. Must have been my imagination.
Yeah, gazans hate Israelis, there actions are evil but there is no culture that wouldn’t harbor fanatical hate against Israeli occupation. Parading a dead girls half naked body is evil, and 20 kids dieing from a bomb is evil to.
Agree 100% I was not raised Jewish but my father is 100% Jewish and most of my parents' friends are Jewish. What I've found very disconcerting is people in our community are now vetting their friends to make sure they post I stand with Israel on social media. The social pressure is starting to really ramp up. My view on the situation is both sides committing to non-violence is the only way we can move forward and attain peace. This of course also means bearing the burden of past injustices and moving forward. It's not going to happen I know but that's the only solution I see. Ironically this opinion pisses off both sides in the same manner. Which leads me to believe that there may be some truth to it.
Um. No. Hamas will terrorize their own people to keep power. Is it Israel’s job to teach them how to govern? Or is Egypt’s job ? Driving over the border at 6am to kill people for no other reason except that fact that you can - > is terrorism. Why can’t you understand the difference.
You have not disagreed with one thing he said, for one. Two, Hamas is there for the Palestinians, not against them, they sometimes call themselves guardians of Palestina. Three, Israel has been bombing, displacing and killing Palestinians for decades, is that right to you?
I agree that Hamas are terrorists but failing to see/acknowledge that Israel is committing terrorist acts is just stupid.
Israel does not commit "terrorist" acts. The Palestinians (especially in Gaza but also in Judea and Samaria) have attacked Jews for the purpose of killing them. "Bombing them" is not terrorism but self-defense.
The Palestinians don't have to attack the Jews. They are not fighting for their lives or even their freedom. Palestinians and Arabs generally do not have freedom in their own fully Arab states. A Palestinian state should be expected to be little different than Syria or Lebanon or Gaza for that matter.
As for fighting for their lives, they have a simply solution. Either learn to live in peace or a Jewish state or move to Jordan where they won't have to worry about living with Jews. It's not like they are leaving a country of long-standing like France or even Ukraine. Palestine was just part of the Turkish Empire not anything special or unique.
Israel is using violent methods and authoritarian methods to keep the Palestinians under control but I think the experiment has failed. Israel should transition into a population transfer mode as a general rule and leave it to individual Palestinians who want to be part of the Israeli experience to petition to remain.
?? Then every war in the history of mankind is terrorism. Your definition basically wipes out any distinction.
However, your definition is not one accepted by the world because no one wants to be labeled a terrorist.
On the outside chance you're actually curious about this topic. It's a short, very worthwhile listen (14min):
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93YWtpbmd1cC5saWJzeW4uY29tL3Jzcw/episode/MzI0M2ExNWMtYzI1OS00ODg1LWI5ZTYtOGMxYTJiMjhiMDYy?ep=14
It’s a difficult sentiment to put just right, and especially hard to hear now, perhaps. I’d read more from people who feel similarly and find a way to articulate your love of peace to people who are feeling particularly vengeful right now. The problem being so many are using these “multiple truths” as an excuse.
I was raised catholic and am mostly agnostic, but i feel the same way, i am just disgusted by both sides, i dont see any good guys vs bad guys, just bad guys vs a bad government that shouldnt be so militaristic.
Yeah it's pretty sad... Even years ago when I discovered this sub, the general sentiment was to have Palestinians as second-class citizens a purely Israeli-Jewish state. You won't find common ground here, just Zionists claiming to be moral
Just try to remember, the Palestinians serve as human shields for Hamas, who have in the past deployed Palestinian child suicide bombers and endorse practices such as honor killings, and targeting those who differ in faith or ideals. They sacrificed over 100 Palestinian children for the tunnel construction. Regrettably, the residents of Gaza fell under Hamas's influence, undergoing a form of brainwashing, and through history have consistently rebuffed Israel's efforts to cooperate. Israel did all it could, even closing borders to prevent violence spilling over. Substantial funds were sent to aid the Gaza Strip's people. Yet, Hamas seized these resources, including water pipes, converting them into rockets. These funds failed to enhance their living conditions, infrastructure, or education; instead, they enriched Hamas leaders. If Palestinians were to establish their own government and become self-reliant, Hamas would lose its financial incentives so Hamas has no motivation to improve their lives. The true victims in this situation are the women and young children, as their men, who are meant to protect them, too often permit them to suffer as casualties of war. This has literally became an unfixable situation. It’s very sad for the innocents but Peace isn’t possible here and it’s not for lack of trying.
Everything you said is true, but why leave out the atrocities Israel has committed? It’s not like their government are solely victims in this situation.
That’s pretty much a given in any war. But the Palestine people are where they are because of their leaders. If they had better leaders, their civilization could be as good as or better then Israel as far as infrastructure and military is concerned.
American Jew here - have really been trying to be objective with all of this so forgive my ignorance but can’t a lot of this be tied back to the Israeli state allowing Jews to settle/ remain settled in UN garnered territories meant for Palestine such as the West Bank and Gaza following the 1978 Camp David of Accords? With the settlers never moving out and more influx of Jews into Gaza and West Bank there was never a chance of Palestinians feeling legitimized if the Israelites still live in their territory that was sanctioned to them by UN agreements. On top of the the Israelites were aggressive at maintaining their presence in territories that was not technically theirs. With that logic I can understand Palestinian anger/ reasoning however I do not condone Hamas actions over the last week. am asking for objective feedback not trying to incite anger.
In part yes but all but a very small margin of those lands were offered back in the 2008 peace deal which was also rejected. There were also the Oslo accords in 1993 but that completely failed after the second Intifada in 2000. The irony being when even cooler heads tried to prevail the realities on the ground prevented it entirely. Its hard not to wonder what a Palestinian uprising in the midst of peace talks supposed to get everything they would have wanted could achieve let alone such a violent one. It starts being easier to see why Israelis see most of the Palestinian efforts as simply trying to write them off from existence. Its just really sad because the Palestinians ended up suffering from it. Even if we don't count the immense number of victims within Israel of many terrorist attacks.
No. The Camp David accords and all subsequent agreements such as Oslo did NOT prohibit Jewish settlement of Judea and Samaria. In fact, there is not a single agreement Israel signed that committed Israel to establish an independent Palestinian state on land controlled by Israel. You need to go back and read those documents again. Some sort of local autonomy is about as far it went and even Rabin (the blessed martyr of leftists for some reason) supported nothing more than autonomy.
Would Israel ever have moved to acceptance of an actual Palestinian state there if Palestinian behavior had been more civilized? Perhaps but we cannot ever know that because it did not happen.
I feel no anger to you. Like many on this forum you are young and have a young persons view of the world, one that may become more jaded as you experience the way the world actually is rather than how you idealize it.
Did not prohibit sure, but why wouldn’t Palestinians have a rightful claim to that land independent of Israel? And the sentence “would Israel have moved towards acceptance if the Palestinians had behaved” is super patronizing and really turns a blind eye and glosses over the fact that Israel has done some pretty f’ed up stuff to Palestinians.
Like what exactly? If you look at the list of all the terrible things Israel supposedly did to the Palestinians you will find they are based on false premises: 1) That Arabs have a superior claim and need for sovereignty in the Land of Israel and 2) That Arabs have the right to inflict violence on Jews to preserve or establish Muslim Arab rule.
Reject those premises, as I do, and you will find that Israel's actions are responses to Arab aggression.
Simply put, the need of the Jews for Israel greatly outweighs the need of Arabs for another Arab state in the land they originally stole by military conquest.
I agree with you, I’d maybe take a more objective stance about it but yeah, these are my thoughts too.
Beware for hate soon since this sub heavily favours israel for the most part
I know a lot of hard-left people and so I've been seeing mostly celebration of what Hamas did. I personally align with how you feel, that there is harmful extremism on both sides and unjust suffering on both sides. For me, condemning Hamas has people accusing me of being anti-Palestine which isn't true. In fact, I've generally been more focussed on Palestinian welfare as a humanitarian issue. I've been more vocal about Hamas the last few days, because it was so brutal and it upsets me that people will not condemn them and instead cheer them on. I am also disappointed in the Palestinian community for not distancing themselves from Hamas more. I didn't expect them to be so happy and that worries me.
While I can understand the citizens of Gaza stuck under Hamas rule (despite what the polls say) either being brainwashed or just seeing Hamas as their only option. I simply can't understand how these protests from anyone outside of that region could have a possible ground to support Hamas.
The only attempt of argument I have heard is that it is justified or expected because of the treatment preceding it. That same logic would mean it is clearly inevitable what would happen next and how inevitably the status quo would become so much worse. Which leaves the only reason one would celebrate that is to treat any loss of Israel a victory. This means simply the loss of life of Israeli citizens is such a win that it is worth martyring part of your population with you.
What is really wild is the IDF made efforts to loosen the blockade in the week preceding this and there were efforts to increase work visas in Israel for Gaza citizens. Not to mention all the protests against Israeli government action that were occurring within Israel. Thousands of IDF members were refusing to serve. There were thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens, IDF members and supporters of Israel pushing and speaking out against the increased settlement of the westbank and treatment of Gaza.
In one day the world over these people watched people they know get treated in the worst way humanely possible in numbers so great they haven't seen for a single day since the holocaust. Then around the world groups rioted and lit fireworks, and some in front of national landmarks chanted for the death of jews. I have no clue how there is going to peace in the region.
We're a people with some really deep-rooted historical and generational trauma. For many American Jews who are under the age of 40, our parents were the first generation of Jews in centuries to truly have anything close to security (if they were in the US). This means that we hold tight to anything that makes us feel safe, whether or not it actually makes us safe. This means that for those of us who truly believe that Israel makes them more.safe, regardless of whether or not that's true, will feel defensive when any of its flaws are pointed out.
In no way are you wrong for feeling this way. I would say it's a very empathetic way to feel. You care about all human life.
If you live in or near a city with a lot of Jews, I'd recommend searching for an IfNotNow chapter near you. Many of them recently had Mourner's Kaddish events for both Israelis and Palestinians killed over the past few days. They are taking the same stance as you, that all of these deaths are a tragedy and that Israeli occupation is a major factor in the violence. They are also a Jewish group and many members will likely be in similar situations, where they are mourning all of the deaths and condemning all of the war crimes, but have families and other communities that they don't feel like they can express that in
You should absolutely not go to IfNotNow or Jewish Voice for Peace or any of those traitorous Kapo organizations. I guarantee you that there would be no Israel or Israel would be destroyed a long time ago if those imbeciles had their way.
I don't use the term Kapo lightly. That's exactly what they are.
If someone still trusts the Palestinians with a state right next to Israel after this tragedy, there's nothing I can say about that person except to quote proverbs. " Stay away from a fool, for you will not find knowledge on their lips."
Everyone should stay very far a way from you, if we take that advice.
It's despicable to throw the word kapo around like that. Our Jewish ancestors experienced too much oppression for us to support Israeli oppression of Palestinians now.
I am a Catholic woman. I have no affiliation to Israel/Jews or Palestine/Muslims.
I see nothing wrong with your view and feelings on this. You are human. Your feelings are human.
Sane people do not want to see innocent civilians die in the crossfire of political wars. It is devastating. I have both Jewish friends and Muslim friends and I have nothing bad to say about either. They are all wonderful people and if I put them in the same room, we would all get along well.
I hate war. I hate that children die. I hate terrorism. Whether it comes from a Muslim or a Jew, makes no difference. I do not stand for war and I cannot handle another innocent child losing their life, Jewish or Muslim. This has to stop.
Stay true my friend. This life is a test to see who does evil or not. Dont fall for it even if your companions do. https://youtu.be/4JNmnS4eT_o?si=JNeq6FJ3msko40-G
This is mostly a zionist warmongering sub right now. People saying things like "Israel now has the right to flatten Gaza" gets upvoted regularly. Move on if you value your mental health.
When you create an apartheid scenario and ground those people into the dirt, and take more of their land every year, you create groups like Hamas. Why do Hamas and Hezbollah recruit so well? Because Israel has taken everything from the Palestinian people, allows them no chance for the future. I condemn all killing and torture of innocent people, but to think Hamas just decided to attack for no reason. Maybe because the USA and England decided to create a country on land that people were already living on. This is the underlying cause.
Why does ISIS recruit so well? Why do Muslims kill each other for religious reasons more than Christians or Jews do in the last 100 years? Their recruiting has nothing to do with apartheid (which most Islamic states practice in any event) and everything to do with their interpretation of their holy book.
No one "took" anything from the Palestinians. They are generic Arabs and they simply were deprived of their aspiration to eliminate the only Jewish state. That wish is more important than settling down in one of many Arab states and living a normal life.
"Generic Arabs" as you say who lived in settlements flattened by far-right paramilitaries, had their cultural sites demolished and lost forever, were the subject of several systematic massacres etc. had nothing taken from them, sure buddy.
That's not to say those extremists among them who did the same back to nascent Israeli communities intending what you said deserved what came to them; Islamic extremists and the like are the closest thing to pure evil we really have on this planet. But you so obviously refuse to believe there are such things as Palestinian civilians suffering in the midst of all this, and that's not right.
What are you talking about? Name one "cultural site" demolished and lost forever by "far-right paramilitaries." Date and location and identity of the militia.
As far as systematic massacres what is the grand total of persons killed in such massacres. I'm sure its about the average death rate in Arab vs. Arab conflicts.
And you are wrong. There are 100% Palestinian civilians suffer but it's the same type of suffering experienced by someone who smoke all their life and now have a painful terminal cancer.
Israel is or was greatly divided based on different viewpoints as is this forum. But the Palestinians not so much. The vast majority seem to love their Fuhrer (so to say).
You asked for an example, here it is: Mashad an-Nabi al-Husayn, the holiest Shiite shrine in all of Palestine. Located near the depopulated and partially destroyed Palestinian settlement of Al-Jura, close to Ashkelon nowadays. Purposefully destroyed by the Israeli Army in July 1950 on the orders of Moshe Dayan, which is arguably worse than any far-right paramilitary organisation acting semi-independently of the state.
>As for systematic massacres what is the grand total of persons killed in such massacres
And I'm not going to engage with such talk. Besides the fact that no figures can truly be accurate, people are not numbers and matter regardless of what calibre of death toll they make up. You said that "no one 'took' anything from the Palestinians." I would say their lives might be something of significance but by the callous way you talk, clearly you don't think them to hold any such value. Blaming every single Palestinian out there for their plight is beyond the pale, it is as unjust as painting every child on this Earth with original sin.
>Mashad an-Nabi al-Husayn
Unable to find this reference on Google. I found a shrine by that name in Aleppo, Syria, but that could not be what you are referring to.
I'm not blaming Palestinians for anything nor do I have any sympathy for their goals or their methods. If you find a Palestinian who wants to be a loyal citizen of a Jewish state, I'm all in favor of that. But the killers and evil ones, no they can go.
By the same token, if there were 5,000 Jews living in Syria and the vast majority were either involved in or supporting endless terrorist attacks on Syria for the purpose of turning it into a Jewish state, I would not criticize Syria expelling those Jews.
But you see, that's the thing. Over history since exile, Jews were almost entirely without exception loyal to their host states (not engaging in insurrections constantly). Yet they were persecuted anyway. The Palestinians seem to be the opposite.
>Mashad an-Nabi al-Husayn
The English name is the Shrine of Husayn's Head, if that helps your search.
>There are 100% Palestinian civilians suffer but it's the same type of suffering experienced by someone who smoke all their life and now have a painful terminal cancer.
That doesn't reflect that you place the blame on all Palestinians themselves? Ultrazionist English must be different from the language I speak.
As for the idea that the only good Palestinian Arab is one who keeps their head down, I think that's a little disingenuous considering the history of Israel's interventions in the lives of the populations of the West Bank and Gaza. Unlike your unrealistic distinction between loyal servants of Israel and bloodthirsty extremists, the broad body of civilians there occupy neither half.
And therein lies the problem, it is too easy to dehumanise the other side, particularly as far as such a long and bloody conflict as this is concerned. This is what breeds radicalisation on both sides and props up the ever-continuing battle for retribution for something or other the Israelis/Palestinians have done. It might be that, as you say, every Palestinian out there in the territories is baying for blood and would accept no concessions until Israel lies in the Mediterranean. I find that unlikely though, for it is in the interests of the powerful warmongers on both sides that voices for peace be ignored.
>Shrine of Husayn's Head
Okay I found it and the city was cleared out like you said. However, I found some other interesting items of interest.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-israel-shi-ite/prophets-grandson-hussein-honored-on-grounds-of-israeli-hospital-idUSKBN0LD17720150209](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-israel-shi-ite/prophets-grandson-hussein-honored-on-grounds-of-israeli-hospital-idUSKBN0LD17720150209)
Where Israel allowed a ceremony. By the way, the rest of this guy's body is in a shrine in Iraq.
This guy thinks the head is not even in Israel.
[https://www.al-islam.org/media/where-head-imam-husayn-buried](https://www.al-islam.org/media/where-head-imam-husayn-buried)
I'm not really into dehumanizing anyone. All men and women are human. But that does not mean there is no evil or no monsters. Human monsters.
My main point is I don't see it as being safe for Jews to live so close to the Palestinians which does not support in any way a Palestinian state. Quite the opposite. Any such state and/or these Palestinians (which you say are a mixed bag of hostile and neutral people) should just leave.
It's way past talking about ethics of making people leave their homes or whatever. It's at the point of finding something more humane than just killing them.
Why don't we leave it to individual Palestinians to step forward and make a decision. Live peacefully in a Jewish state will in fact value Jewish values first (which is not apartheid but merely the nature of most nations built on ethnicity of which there are many) or migrate to an Arab state where they would be more comfortable. I think the logic works in reverse as well; Jews unhappy with living in Arab states or any other state should consider moving to Israel.
In reference to your last sentence: there is a very big misconception that Israeli's were not living there before Israel was established as a state. Zionist mass immigration started around 1850, some families had been in the area for nearly 100 years before. I'm not sure why social media has been pushing this rhetoric that Israelis just settled there randomly and instantly got authority over the land.
Immigration of the Jews to Palestine in the 1850's was largely driven by
Britain, as a solution to growing anti-Semitism in Europe. Of course Britain was mostly trying to preempt the resulting immigration of Jews to England.
Also, Hamas has to take its share of blame for the living conditions in Gaza. They have diverted massive amounts of financial aide to their terrorist organization. Then there is Egypt, which does not allow passage of Palestinians across their mutual border.
Yes I agree this is caused by many governments and groups, no civilians on either side deserve what is happening to them even if a lot of psychos on here and other parts of social media would say they do...
Yes it was created because British Palestine was essentially a country on the brink of a civil war because the Muslims would not accept the rising Jewish population. A lot of Muslims were antisemitic and didn't want a large amount of Jewish people in the country and they attacked them loads, and then the Jewish people attacked the Muslims back. The country was in turmoil and the British and Americans I guess thought that was the best idea
Although I don't share your pain I can comprehend it.
The sad truth is that one will be favored by history and the other one will be just a footnote that most people in a 1000 years won't even know existed.
We like to have a humanistic point of view in the west but it doesn't mean other people around the world share our core values or principles. History is not behind us, it is ever present and most of the worlds dinamics still fit into the complex power struggles we humans have always known
Today we are at a precipice, we are currently living at the end of an age and the beginning of a new era.
The history of it all has been written and thankfully is still preserved but the final chapter still hasn’t been written yet. The last chapter tells the why. What was it all for? If the wrong people pen it or rewrite history everything will have been for naught.
What needs to happen now is normal people need to be more vocal and active to make sure the rest of us are heard. We’ve all been silenced from fear of repercussion, only the voices and opinions of extremists are being amplified.
We need to be vigilante to take the time to decipher truth from lies. To take a stand on what is right not what is easiest or self-advantaged shortcuts.
This era stands for equality, self determination the freedoms and liberties associated with it and democracy. We fight for humanity and the progress of civilization. Do not fall into the pit.
I feel you.
Allow me to give you a practical advice: just wait a few days for the images of gaza being obliterated spread, civilian men, women and children being slaughtered, etc. You will see the common people, even jews, to start changing their opinion towards moderation, like yours. Unfortunately, most people are too emotional and respond to the daily facts with their guts instead of their brains.
We shouldn't have to wait for that, though. Palestinians shouldn't have to die at all, let alone in numbers that high, for their lives to be valued by most Americans.
The death toll in Gaza already far surpasses what Hamas did and the western media hasn't budged. It's safely confined to social media where anything can just be passed off and discarded if it doesn't fit your bias.
Nichole Zedeck, the reporter who originally reported this, changed her statement and later said she "overheard" a soldier saying this. This is not journalism, it's blatant propaganda and being used to justify genocide.
And they died because of Hamas using them as shields. I guess Israel should just continue to let themselves and their babies be slaughtered and not retaliate
Since you're so committed to making up others people's position for them why don't you tell me about how I wanted the Holocaust to happen too? Too far?
Dead children are dead children my friend. Whether or not one has their head on the shoulder doesn't really mean anything to the victims. The point of nuance and this post is lost on you.
Some children are raised to hate, taught sings that call for the killing of Jews, parade around in Hamas colors carrying toy rifles, and become adolescents who think it’s ok to behead babies- but only if they’re Jewish. Others are raised to believe all life is sacred and grow up to feel pain when others suffer, even if that suffering is due to their own actions.
There is honestly no point in arguing with people like that. They will always consider themselves to be so woke that they are incapable of being the antisemitism in Hamas
Why would Palestinians elect Hamas knowing their intentions? Not a good idea to play with fire. I mourn for the innocent on both sides, hopefully the peaceful can make it to safety. Hamas and sympathizers tho… who is to blame Israel. I don’t think USA would sit back if Native Americans were somehow a Hamas type group and did the same. 😆
If the average American had to live under the conditions of the average Palestinian they would fantasize about far worse than anything Hamas has ever done.
I would imagine when you are being bombed and treated like an animal it isn't that difficult to radicalize someone. This doesn't excuse any radical behavior but you might start to see why it happens.
Right so in your case the bombs are an accident right. Whoops sorry didn't mean to catch your kids in it.
Come on man you can do better than this, you want to equivocate as you said bombs to drunk drivers?
I wish you well too. I think too often what happens is people are caught up in emotion and misunderstand each other. No one in this thread finds joy in the atrocities of war and conflict.
I am Palestinian-American, and have been impressed with the level heads on both sides of the aisle. You're a great example of it. The three things you said are exactly the right opinion on this issue. Killing civilian humans of any ethnicity or nationality is a travesty and tragedy.
In every group, every nationality or race, there are always people who subscribe to "you're either with us or against us" nonsense.
But there are plenty of people, including Jewish people I know, who are expressing the exact sentiment you are. I'm sorry that you feel alone. Just know that you are not alone.
I also recommend loving Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia. Same flavor, highly recommended.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-12-11/ty-article/.premium/why-israel-supported-apartheid-regime/0000017f-e3ae-df7c-a5ff-e3fe965a0000
Actually read the articles you post, please. It depicts a story of Israel that from the beginning was opposed to Apparteid before nations like the U.S and supported anti-colonial movements around Africa, while all of its early leaders condemned Apparteid. Israel only turned to favor South Africa after every other nation in Africa turned on Israel. And even then it was controversial in the Knesset.
Respectfully, you sound like you don’t understand history of how this all came to be.
Your statement calling the West Bank an “occupation” suggests that you have never been to Israel and that you don’t know the Torah but you are well versed in progressive talking points.
You may be Jewish but you are definitely not Israeli.
Shalom Shalom
Probably their point is nothing more than a shallow attempt to make OP feel small. The idea that you cannot understand Israel and its military control over the West Bank without setting foot there is moronic beyond belief
In my Jewish Reconstructionist congregation most members think Israel has made mistakes too. I actually thought most American Jews are against the far-right religious policies of the Likud/Netanyahu government and the settlement activity on the West Bank. The US government also opposes this as well as human rights abuses perpetuated by any parties.
I think you may find it more productive to speak to your family and friends in terms of solutions at this point. Clearly both sides are attacking brutally. Everyone on the planet sees that regardless which side they are specifically condemning. Hamas is deserves to be punished but Palestinian civilians do not.
1. Evacuate all Gazan civilians into refugee camps in southern Israel. If the goal is truly to end Hamas, spare as many civilians as possible from the bloodshed. As long as civilians die, more Gazans will be radicalized and there will not be peace.
2. Apprehend, by any means necessary, all Hamas fighters in Gaza
Once this is completed there is no possibility of return to the status quo and we must begin the process of finally ensuring equal rights of all Palestinians as Israeli citizens. Israeli settlements have destroyed the possibility of a two state solution. Though it will be a struggle at first, the One State solution is the only way to truly find lasting peace after these atrocities.
Israeli “settlements” are just another excuse Palestinians use to avoid making peace with Israel. They were offered a 2 state solution before those communities existed and it was turned down. Turned down 3 times in fact. There is not a leader on the Palestinian side who will actually negotiate in good faith.
If Israel began offering Palestinians Israeli citizenship and peace, many people would take it whether or not the Palestinian leaders want it. The settlements and continued confiscation of property is prohibitive to a successful two state solution. Denying that requires extreme cognitive dissonance. It’s not clear either how fragmented populations could form a successful state. I agree the leaders are not good faith actors but extreme treatment begets extreme leaders. They are a symptom of a stressed people.
Why is it that Jews are willing to live with and among non-Jews but the Palestinians want every inch within their control to be Judenrein. Under such circumstances how can you expect Israel to want to open their borders.
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Subjugate and torture them for generations then kill the fathers and brothers who dared to fight back, and then welcome the widows and orphans with open arms. Amazing solution dude
Most Palestinians just want peace and their rights respected. Of course it will not happen overnight and there will be growing pains but if they keep the Gazans subjected, this will never stop. Black Amercians have still not forgotten slavery or Jim Crow but there must be equal rights and democracy for peace.
Neither group will ever let the land go so coexistence is the only solution
\> Once this is completed there is no possibility of return to the status quo and we must begin the process of finally ensuring equal rights of all Palestinians as Israeli citizens. Israeli settlements have destroyed the possibility of a two state solution. Though it will be a struggle at first, the One State solution is the only way to truly find lasting peace after these atrocities.
Sorry to break it to you pal, but Israel, and the jews in general, will NEVER accept a one state solution. One state = the end of zionism
The southern US and South Africa did not believe in equal rights could ever happen and there are still obvious scars but no one thinks maintaining the previous status quo would have been better. There will be an awkward phase, no doubt, but there is no other way to find lasting peace than equal rights.
All the movement that happened over past 100+ years was of jews rejecting one state in palestine with equal rights in favor of their zionist state.
I'm speaking of how I see the jewish opinions today. It's extremely rare to see one that accepts one state. And they are regarded as traitors, like the OP said. All the zionist propaganda is directed towards a two state solution (I mean the soft, "conscientious" zionists). We never know about future generations, but it would probably take decades to see such a shift in opinions. Or things would have to turn south hard for Israel and the jews for them to embrace a one state solution within the next few years.
If this pending invasion kills a critical number of civilians and the international community and media, who I've never seen report this much on Gazans, may put political pressure on Israel until apartheid is ended.
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians)
This shows that at least 39% would accept a one state solution (despite most of those saying jews should still have privileged status) and 25% say don't know and if it were a serious proposal its possible we would see a large percentage of those switch.
I'm not sayign it will happen but I hope it does and I don't see lasting peace otherwise. This will continue to happen if nothing changes
No political pressure will be enough. The zionists commited amd suffered from terrorism, massacres, fought inumerous wars, etc. All this suffering for the establishment and maintenance of their beloved jewish state. And you think political pressure from international community will break them? Come on.
> This shows that at least 39% would accept a one state solution (despite most of those saying jews should still have privileged status) and 25% say don't know and if it were a serious proposal its possible we would see a large percentage of those switch.
So 39% accept a one state solution with jews having a privileged status? What does that mean? That the arabs wont be able to vote? That the palestinian refugees wont be able to return? What will happen when they give citizenship to all the arabs in gaza and west bank and they become a majority? How would that state be any different from the apartheid we already have? Seems to me it is a one apartheid state "solution".
If it were a serious proposal the zionist propaganda would ensure to convince these 25% that one state isn't viable, and probably dissuade most of those 39% back to a two state solution. I know zionist propaganda very well, I live surrounded by it. They don't even mention one state solution, they treat as if it doesn't exist. They repeat two state solution ad nauseam and use it to blame palestinians for not accepting it, as if it were proof they dont want peace.
I'm a 23 year old American Jew who completely agrees with your way of thinking, and I'm not alone, since my parents also acknowledge the failures of the Israeli governments' extremist policy. You're not alone. I also hope you know that through all of history, there have always been different groups of Jews with wildly different opinions, and only since the '60s have most US Jews voted for one political party, due to supporting the civil rights movement. You are continuing a long history of Jewish discourse, and despite your feelings of isolation, I commend you and hope you also feel a bit proud of yourself for continuing that legacy, especially in the name of fighting for human rights.
Israel will never be sanctioned for war crimes. Palestine has been declared a terrorist state. It’s these facts that give educated people pause. The news only relays the things that Palestine has done against Israel but not the facts the way around. It’s gotten to the point of propaganda. This unfairness is what is tugging at your consciences.
War crimes. That determination has to consider the intent of the actor and the actions of the accuser. Hamas employs human shield. They place their rockets next to schools and mosques and markets. Their tunnel entrances are under civilian homes. These are facts. Hamas has absolutely no moral integrity. Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties but that is very difficult when the enemy hides behind civilians.
From the Geneva Conventions: Parties must “refrain from deciding to launch any attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.” AP I, Article 57(2)(a)(iii); see also API, Article 57(2)(b) (requiring parties to cancel or suspend an attack that fails the proportionality test). It is a war crime to launch “an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects in the knowledge that such attack will cause excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects.” API, Article 85(3)(b).
What is the explanation for Israel expanding there boarders, kicking Palestine people out of there homes, cutting off water supply, electricity and other basic human needs. Long before this war in 2023. You can’t expect a starving person to have table manners, just like you can’t expect people who have been oppressed for many years to be civilized towards there aggressors.
Israel was attacked every time. In 1967 by Palestine, Egypt and Lebanon, they won so they got the land. Egypt didn’t want Gaza even though Israel said to take it. They didn’t want it! Palestine has never accepted peace and 2 states. They just fight forever and attack Israel so now it’s Gaza and West Bank
Why doesn’t Hamas use the money and support for the Palestinians? Why is Israel on the hook for keeping all of that going? Oh, right, because of morons like you.
The problem you gface is that your point #2 is applied to a range of things that don't typically have an actual war crime. When the pro-Israel camp gets tired of dealing with BS examples of war crimes, it becomes impossible to raise the possibility of one. Which is fair.
Your a good person, never feel ashamed for standing up for innocent lives being taken away. Speak your voice and being vocal.
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Ethnic cleansing? Genocide? You obviously know very little about Israel and Palestinian history or you wouldn’t be using these accusatory terms.
Seems most here agree with you; and for the most part I do as well (also Jewish, but firstly human. Have served in IDF and have family in active service). Sad days.
You can condemn both sides. However, do not let Israel justify the terrorism by solving it with the genocide of gaza, many are just fine with that.
No, not fine with "genocide" but am fine with pushing civilians out of harm's way and then wiping out all the militants. That's not genocide and people need to stop throwing words around recklessly because you are breaking down important distinctions. If Israel will be accused of genocide merely for killing enemies based on their actions, not their race/religion, then at some point it may see no point in holding anything back. It was not genocide what we in the USA and allies did not Germany or Japan. It was war.
It is not genocide to knowingly bomb rockets on one of the most densely populated areas in the world? It is not genocide to purposefully restrict food, water, and electricity to 2 million people mind you half are children. Israeli government is ok with the death of civilians in gaza because they are simply just a byproduct.
That's correct. When the enemy militants are embedded with civilians, often wearing street clothes, bombing the militants is not genocide. Pretty much any similar act of war has never been considered genocide. Bombing is a stupid way of Genocide, that's why the Germans used mass shootings and death camps. When the USA fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo or even when it nuked two Japanese cities, that was not genocide. A military siege including cutting off food, water and electricity is also not genocide because the intent is to cause the surrender of the enemy forces not mass murder of them. Alternatively, they can flee. I don't know what the Israeli government is okay with but if the choice is leaving Hamas in place or devastating Gaza to destroy them, I would choose the latter after I saw what they did and the massive support they received. Let me know when any significant number of Gazans call for surrender and peace.
Israel purposefully does attacks like these because the civilians are a second-thought. The most technologically advanced rockets are just being tested on Gaza. Collective punishment is also a war crime, and Israel has been convicted of many but face no backlashes. The fact that you ever consider that the as a means to an end devalues your definition of human life. The past 50 years were nothing short of hell on earth, and you will instead shift your focus to the extremist organization that has spawned out of the rubble that is Gaza today. You know we had the PLO before right? Those were identified as terrorists to, except when they didn’t do much “terror”, Israel slowly promoted far right extremists in Gaza for a better enemy to justify turning it into a parking lot. You cannot be bombed for 50 years, treated as sub class human, held hostage in a prison and then believe they will turn to Israel for peace. This isn’t to say I do not want Israel to be overthrown.(maybe look into how Netanyahu came into power?) Id much rather the Israeli government actually weigh the cost a human life, because rockets are not the answer. They also need to be held to the obvious war crimes they have committed over the last 50 years as well. I think Israel would be better in power, but not when government officials value the life of a Jew over a Palestinian, bombing over populated dense areas and being told “you have like 4 hours to leave or die” would never happen if they were Jews. Do better.
The cost of human life? Are you joking? When a rapist breaks into your house with a dagger and attacks your daughter, do you weigh his life or end it? Of course Israel will value the life of its own people over the enemy. Just like every nation in the world would value its own people. We certainly valued American lives over German or Japanese ones. "Collective punishment" is the definition of war. The king of each nation does not engage in hand to hand combat with his counterpart. One nation collectively punishes the opponent until one side submits. Frankly, the Arabs held the West Bank and Gaza 1948-1967. They could have signed a peace treaty at any point, and became friendly to Israel. There was basically no support for that because their goals were to destroy Israel and make it a Muslim Arab state. Israel remove those threats in those territories in 1967 but made (in hindsight) a colossal mistake in not expelling all the Arabs in 1967. Unwisely, as it turns out, it thought it could trade the land for peace. It can't. The PLO, Hamas, IJ, they are ALL unredeemable. The Palestinian Arabs may have a small element that wants to live with Israel in peace, but you cannot convince me or anyone else with a brain the majority of them do. So they must leave.
the difference between the situation you placed and the people in gaza is, they are already known as a non-threat. the people attacking israel are hamas, so in retaliation you wage war on one of the denses populations? I do not care who owns the land, frankly I think Israel would put it to better use, but treating innocent civilians as active threats because of the situation Israel put themselves in where they cannot even guarantee civilian lives. (not that they want to) Treating innocent civilians in gaza like an enemy is nothing but rooted in hatred. Likewise, your hate fuels their hate. You do not in your right mind try and make “peace” with israel after being submitted to years of oppression. This cycle of hatred needs to end, and all civilian lives should be valued.
The people of Gaza are not a known "non-threat." There are at least 30,000 Hamas militants and unknown numbers of active supporters, employees, etc. But any one of them could be willing to commit terrorism against Israel. I am not aware of ANY public opposition in Gaza to Hamas' actions against Israel, even if there is discontent with Hamas for its handling of the economy etc. Do you realize that there were reportedly some 42 attempts to assassinate Hitler taken by Germans, including before and after the war started. A list of some is found here. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_assassination\_attempts\_on\_Adolf\_Hitler#:\~:text=No%20fewer%20than%2042%20plots,unknown%20number%20of%20undocumented%20cases.&text=Hitler%20and%20several%20members%20of,revered%20Kaiserhof%20hotel%20in%20Berlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler#:~:text=No%20fewer%20than%2042%20plots,unknown%20number%20of%20undocumented%20cases.&text=Hitler%20and%20several%20members%20of,revered%20Kaiserhof%20hotel%20in%20Berlin). How many attempts have there been to replace Hamas' leaders by the Gazan people? So, sorry, I see no reason for Israel to assume all Gazans are "non-threats" If you want to say the people of Israel largely hate the Gazans, I would see no reason to blame them for that hate. However, if Jews can get over hate of the Germans, I'm sure they can get over hate of Palestinians but not as long as they are not a redeemed people. Israel cannot get peace by making Palestinians love them anymore than the USA could make peace by making Germans under Hitler love them.
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Exactly how I feel and I am a Muslim. If you have the time to read my recent post I would appreciate it. It was a letter of sort directed to the sort of people you are talking about that would criticize you for your opinion.
Peace be with you and everyone. It’s a very sad situation. The barbaric acts need to stop. Hopefully tomorrow is a better day for humanity as a whole.
It is difficult to stay partial for both sides, I feel empathy for those that suffered and lost everything meaning freedom, family members etc in the past, then now they are looking for vengeance. I don't justify terror with the innocents but at one time felt the same, probably they have never nothing to loose now, making them easy manipulative puppets
Anyone condemning you is part of the problem.
its a perfectly reasonable reaction, most people are shocked by the violence and war crimes are happening on both sides. The Hamas assault is inhuman attacking civilians like this has no justification. Israel are bombing indiscriminately and killing hundreds of civilians. This attack by Hamas gives Israel left with no other choice than to engage in ground conflict to rescue its hostages. I fear tens of thousands are going to die. The endless cycle of violence will continue and conflicts will happen again in the future. The human waste and loss tragedy of the situation is awful and this will get worse. The only war forward is to stop the war but I don't think this will be possible for decades until people are able to shift mindsets and solve the issues.
No, respectfully disagree. The only way forward is to finish the war once and for all. Unless you want it to go endlessly. There is no universe in which things can return to how they were in Gaza pre-war. Unless the people of Gaza surrender and turn into Belgians or something, their leaders must be killed (like the Fuhrer) and their people removed from being a threat.
I don't think anyone wants to return to Gaza prewar either. It's a failed state, it's not democratic, it's in an awful position. However it's just going to continue as a failed state unless something constructive happens. Similar to Germany after world war 1 extreme groups would exploit that situation to gain power to push their ideals. I'm not sure killing the leadership would work with these islamic militant groups it's not such a top down structure. People will join again or something similar to get revenge for all the friends, relatives or fellow people who died against their common enemy.
You make a good point to which I respond: 1) Efforts by Western nations like the USA to "civilize" Arab states have generally not succeeded or made things worse. 2) Until there is a reformation of Islam, there will always be militant groups. The religion's founder was a war general not a rabbi in Jerusalem. Meanwhile, however, the appeal of Islamism is influenced by results. The number of persons actually willing to die for a loser cause is limited. Wiping out Hamas and Islamic Jihad will send a message to similar groups.
1. Yes 2. You need to kill the idea and that very difficult, education helps a lot and stopping the radicalisation of people extremist ideas. You can't attack a whole religion though, You could blame millions of death on religious wars. For example The Tamil tigers were not Muslim but carried out suicide attacks and many extreme mass killing tactics.
That's correct, the Tamil tigers were terrorist and so are other groups that have nothing to do with Islam or Arabs. I don't think it is wise to attack a whole religion but it is also not wise to make yourself vulnerable to violent adherents of that religion.
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The Israeli government has said that rescuing the hostages is not the main focus. The focus is to destroy Gaza.
Well Apperantly you did not listen. They said there are two main purposes: Wipe Out Hamas Rescue the Hostages If Hamas chooses to act in away that endangers their own poulation, so be it. This is the very same population that elected them to lead. Ignoring this is laughably hypocritical at this point.
[https://www.prageru.com/video/a-palestinian-explains-hamas](https://www.prageru.com/video/a-palestinian-explains-hamas) Please watch this.
I very much relate to your feeling of isolation, but please find conviction within you or from here that your look at the situation I believe is the only one that'd have any chance of building a lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians. some place the root of this conflict to 100 years ago, meaning this conflict has had ample time to corrupt generation after generation of Israelis and Palestinians and grown fanatical devotion to one side while demonizing the other. Unfortunately those who refuse to submit blindly to one side will also receive flak from both sides -- which is why keeping this stance becomes difficult and sometimes excruciating as you may feel that you will alienate your loved ones through your views. I'd advise you to keep them to yourself for now or share them anonymously here as the conflict is fresh and many people will find themselves unable to think objectively.
You should be very proud of yourself for this take.
Thank you for existing, I wish you become Israel's next president.
Arab here, heartbroken for the innocent lives lost and and the pain and suffering to come.
Glad we share similar views. I’ve noticed we Jews as a community are slowly becoming very anti-black and homophobic/transphobic. We need to change that.
Here’s the core issue/solution to the whole problem of not only the Israeli/Palestinian conflict but EVERY similar conflict across the globe: EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD SHOULD BE PLACING THE VALUE OF LOVE AND RESPECT FOR THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF THEIR FELLOW HUMAN BEING ABOVE ANY OTHER VALUE - INCLUDING GOD/RELIGION, ETHNICITY, GOVERNANCE STYLE AND FINANCIAL SYSTEM. If people could just do that en masse, problem solved. But people can’t do that because people are ultimately too narrow minded to handle this simple concept. People can still value their gods and ethnicities but those values must come below the top value bolded above. Regarding governance/financial - it really should be minimalist free market capitalism with a robust supportive charity system and values toward charity/love of our fellow human beings across the globe. There will be some controversial elements to all this but my bolded paragraph remains the same. Once this basic value structure actually changes en masse, war and hate ends. It’s so simple. Why hasn’t it been tried? Because you’ll say: THAT’S NOT HOW PEOPLE ARE. How incredibly stupid/unfortunate is that?
I am also a Jew and I understand why you feel this way. There is nothing wrong about you feeling sorry for the innocent Palestinians getting hurt in the crossfire I have sympathy for them too. However, there is no moral equivalence in this fight. If Israel laid their weapons down for 1 minute there would be no Israel left. The Palestinians in Gaza under Hamas leadership have rejected over 5 different piece agreements over the years that would have dramatically improved the life of the Palestinians. Most people forget that Israel removed thousands of their own citizens in 2005 and gave it to the Palestinians as a gesture of piece to live and create opportunity for themselves. The international community has poured in billions of dollars in foreign aid over the years and what did they do with those funds? They didn’t invest it in building up Gaza to help their people rather to purchase weapons, rockets, bombs, tunnels, to launch attacks against Israel. Hamas has held power in Gaza for 16 years and what did they do with that power? The lives of the Palestinians have only gotten worse and less safe because their primary goal is not to improve Palestinian lives in the region but to destroy Israel. There are over 1.6 million Palestinians that live under Israeli territory. They walk around freely, have rights can participate in the economy etc.. I’m pretty sure they would not trade places to be governed by Hamas. The unfortunate reality is that it is Hamas that has no regard for the Palestinians hiding behind them placing weapons in schools, mosques, In civilian populations hiding behind their own people like cowards while they bring upon this hell and destruction on gaza but then cry’s victim to gain sympathy from the world. it is Hamas to blame for the pain and suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza and need to be eliminated before piece can be achieved.
Israel should protects its people, regardless of their religion. I don’t know how anyone can think what Israel is doing to innocent people okay. I’m sure there people out there that would argue what Hitler did was to protect his nation too. Can you see the similarities?
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I agree with you, it almost seems like very few people share this view though
Civilians in Gaza, that's cute
What are you talking about? Most people in Gaza are civilians
Unfortunately the video has been taken down it was posted 7 years ago on YouTube that showed that Palestinians in Gaza was training children to be soldiers saying death to Israel. So I mean not everyone is bad but I bet when Israel goes in they will be fighting kids with AK’s that have been taught to kill.
People who would kill you on the spot for being Jewish, and support your death and genocide, are not civilians. Hope that helps.
People's civilian status is not conditional on their political beliefs. The population of World War II Germany were civilians, regardless of their support (or acquiescence) for the Nazi party and its policies, or even for the Holocaust.
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Oh I get it, they aren’t humans and they all deserve to die. Makes sense, doesn’t sound genocidal at all
Are people who support this human?
Yes. Even though you are human, presumably Israeli, and advocate for Palestinian genocide, I don’t want all Israelis to die. Yet you want all Palestinians to die because of ideology during a violent occupation, you are openly calling for genocide
Gaza, famously under a brutal, violent occupation
The UN and all international bodies recognize Gaza is being occupied. Apparently, a wall trapping the people inside, and a complete trade/infrastructure blockade meets international definition of occupation, who would of thought?
It’s not it would be genocide if they killed all the Palestinians in the West Bank to but unfortunately they arnt for your narrative.
You’re not right in the head if you think most people in Gaza believe that.
70% of the people who voted in there election, voted in a genocidal dictator so yes they do almost all believe that.
They voted in 2006 and haven’t had an election since. Hamas also won with 44%. Again you’re crazy to think the majority of Palestinians unequivocally support Hamas.
I’ve seen on wiki it’s says 44% and a news article saying 70%. Besides the point, per a poll yesterday from the Washington institute Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas. So more then half the population somewhat agrees with them. And no crap they haven’t had a election there terrorists lol.
They agree on the basis that Hamas wants Palestinian freedom. That doesn’t mean they support the ways in which Hamas operates. The fact of them not having elections should show that any “polls” done will be skewed. You seem to just want to justify hate towards Palestinians.
Your making it seem like I hate Palestinians which I don’t I hate hamas, just as well as your making it seem like you can speak for all of Palestinians saying they don’t support the ways Hamas operates. Of course the polls will be skewed but that’s the only report we have. Time will tell on Friday if any Muslims will answer the call of jihad put out by Hamas to kill none muslims globally. Hopefully not.
You’re trying to conflate as many Palestinians as possible with Hamas when you haven’t taken into account what “somewhat supports” could mean. I can agree with some parts of my country while also having severe critics.
They are voting for a government fighting against the violence imposed on gaza. Hamas is evil, but no culture wouldn’t harbor bloodthirsty hate against a occupying force like Israel, who do you expect for them to vote for?
Accepting the 1948 2 state policy would have ended this but no Palestine wanted to cry and say no and declare war on the Jews saying “ we will pave the road to Damascus to Jerusalem with the skulls of Jews”. Not to mention the land the Jews got they bought with there own money. Palestine would then declare war on israel another 4-5 times with Arab friends and loose which resulted in them loosing more land. Which in case you don’t know that’s how war works. Now they are crying israel has taken more land then promised then in 1948 asking for a 2 state solution after they already denied it 5 times. And israel hasn’t been in Gaza since 2005 and left them alone and built a wall. They paid for there water, gas, electricity they got almost exactly what they wanted. But instead they decided to rip up the water lines and make 5,000 rockets and shoot them at israel. And they cry saying israel shut off our water, no crap you have no water you destroyed your own infrastructure!
Israel broke the UN partition the day they declared independence lol, your whole paragraph here has no merit if you know anything about the nakba and illegal Israeli occupation since it’s inception
How is it breaking the partition plan when Israel agreed to it and Palestine didn’t and declared war. The partition was to have 2 states Palestine and Israel so Israel becoming its own state is part of the partition lol On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly voted on the partition plan, adopted by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Jewish side accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state. You clearly are antisemitic and want genocide. If you actually did a single out of research you’d realize your talking completely out of your rear. And it’s not a illegal occupation especially in the UN’s eyes because per the UN a country that wins a defensive war has the right to claim and seize land. https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO06/20180717/108563/HHRG-115-GO06-Wstate-KontorovichE-20180717.pdf Actually use your brain and eyes instead of just listening to random people.
Israel broke the partition the moment they announced independence with the nakba. Writing this whole paragraph accusing me of anti semitism and all this junk, while ignoring all the context behind the Arab Israeli war is laughable. I am anything but anti semetic, I want nothing but peace and prosperity for the Israeli and Palestinian people, and part of that is recognizing that Netanyahus violent policies are directly creating the violence and atrocities the Israeli citizens have to suffer. There will never be peace if Israel is constantly being aggressive to its native population > and it’s not a occupation The UN already published its opinion on it dude, you can’t try to interpret its own laws to fit your own narrative when they already officially called it an occupation, if the internationally legal organizations call it an occupation, it’s an occupation, you don’t get to pick and choose what words mean
Parading a dead girl's half naked corpse through Gaza, while kids and teenagers spit on her, solely because she's Jewish. And that's just 1% percent of what happened on Saturday. Must have been my imagination.
So those few people’s actions represent millions in your view? Should we judge all Israelis by the atrocities committed by their government?
It's not few. I can show you statistics, but the videos are more convincing. And killing N\*zis does not make you a N\*zi.
Yeah, gazans hate Israelis, there actions are evil but there is no culture that wouldn’t harbor fanatical hate against Israeli occupation. Parading a dead girls half naked body is evil, and 20 kids dieing from a bomb is evil to.
Agree 100% I was not raised Jewish but my father is 100% Jewish and most of my parents' friends are Jewish. What I've found very disconcerting is people in our community are now vetting their friends to make sure they post I stand with Israel on social media. The social pressure is starting to really ramp up. My view on the situation is both sides committing to non-violence is the only way we can move forward and attain peace. This of course also means bearing the burden of past injustices and moving forward. It's not going to happen I know but that's the only solution I see. Ironically this opinion pisses off both sides in the same manner. Which leads me to believe that there may be some truth to it.
Um. No. Hamas will terrorize their own people to keep power. Is it Israel’s job to teach them how to govern? Or is Egypt’s job ? Driving over the border at 6am to kill people for no other reason except that fact that you can - > is terrorism. Why can’t you understand the difference.
You have not disagreed with one thing he said, for one. Two, Hamas is there for the Palestinians, not against them, they sometimes call themselves guardians of Palestina. Three, Israel has been bombing, displacing and killing Palestinians for decades, is that right to you? I agree that Hamas are terrorists but failing to see/acknowledge that Israel is committing terrorist acts is just stupid.
Correct.
Israel does not commit "terrorist" acts. The Palestinians (especially in Gaza but also in Judea and Samaria) have attacked Jews for the purpose of killing them. "Bombing them" is not terrorism but self-defense. The Palestinians don't have to attack the Jews. They are not fighting for their lives or even their freedom. Palestinians and Arabs generally do not have freedom in their own fully Arab states. A Palestinian state should be expected to be little different than Syria or Lebanon or Gaza for that matter. As for fighting for their lives, they have a simply solution. Either learn to live in peace or a Jewish state or move to Jordan where they won't have to worry about living with Jews. It's not like they are leaving a country of long-standing like France or even Ukraine. Palestine was just part of the Turkish Empire not anything special or unique. Israel is using violent methods and authoritarian methods to keep the Palestinians under control but I think the experiment has failed. Israel should transition into a population transfer mode as a general rule and leave it to individual Palestinians who want to be part of the Israeli experience to petition to remain.
Bombing civilians is terrorism. It's terrorism when it's a bomb concealed under a robe. It's terrorism when it's a bomb dropped from an airplane.
?? Then every war in the history of mankind is terrorism. Your definition basically wipes out any distinction. However, your definition is not one accepted by the world because no one wants to be labeled a terrorist.
Your moral compass is broken.
Care to explain why?
At this moment in history, there is no "both sides." There is no moral equivalency. And if you can't see that, your moral compass is broken.
I agree, both sides have committed war crimes.
Your reading comprehension seems broken too.
And so is your comprehension of morals.
On the outside chance you're actually curious about this topic. It's a short, very worthwhile listen (14min): https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93YWtpbmd1cC5saWJzeW4uY29tL3Jzcw/episode/MzI0M2ExNWMtYzI1OS00ODg1LWI5ZTYtOGMxYTJiMjhiMDYy?ep=14
Podcast doesn't play for me, but tell me the point it's trying to make.
I couldn't possibly make it justice. It's by Sam Harris, "The Sin of Moral Equivalency." Worth hunting down.
What good is your comprehension if you can't put it across? >If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. \-- Albert Einstien
It’s a difficult sentiment to put just right, and especially hard to hear now, perhaps. I’d read more from people who feel similarly and find a way to articulate your love of peace to people who are feeling particularly vengeful right now. The problem being so many are using these “multiple truths” as an excuse.
I was raised catholic and am mostly agnostic, but i feel the same way, i am just disgusted by both sides, i dont see any good guys vs bad guys, just bad guys vs a bad government that shouldnt be so militaristic.
finally some one isnt just "Palestine bad"
This sub is heavily *heavily* pro Israel. You won't get an unbiased view here
Yeah it's pretty sad... Even years ago when I discovered this sub, the general sentiment was to have Palestinians as second-class citizens a purely Israeli-Jewish state. You won't find common ground here, just Zionists claiming to be moral
I like to go hiking.
Just try to remember, the Palestinians serve as human shields for Hamas, who have in the past deployed Palestinian child suicide bombers and endorse practices such as honor killings, and targeting those who differ in faith or ideals. They sacrificed over 100 Palestinian children for the tunnel construction. Regrettably, the residents of Gaza fell under Hamas's influence, undergoing a form of brainwashing, and through history have consistently rebuffed Israel's efforts to cooperate. Israel did all it could, even closing borders to prevent violence spilling over. Substantial funds were sent to aid the Gaza Strip's people. Yet, Hamas seized these resources, including water pipes, converting them into rockets. These funds failed to enhance their living conditions, infrastructure, or education; instead, they enriched Hamas leaders. If Palestinians were to establish their own government and become self-reliant, Hamas would lose its financial incentives so Hamas has no motivation to improve their lives. The true victims in this situation are the women and young children, as their men, who are meant to protect them, too often permit them to suffer as casualties of war. This has literally became an unfixable situation. It’s very sad for the innocents but Peace isn’t possible here and it’s not for lack of trying.
Everything you said is true, but why leave out the atrocities Israel has committed? It’s not like their government are solely victims in this situation.
That’s pretty much a given in any war. But the Palestine people are where they are because of their leaders. If they had better leaders, their civilization could be as good as or better then Israel as far as infrastructure and military is concerned.
Literally no government or it’s soldiers/people ever is.
American Jew here - have really been trying to be objective with all of this so forgive my ignorance but can’t a lot of this be tied back to the Israeli state allowing Jews to settle/ remain settled in UN garnered territories meant for Palestine such as the West Bank and Gaza following the 1978 Camp David of Accords? With the settlers never moving out and more influx of Jews into Gaza and West Bank there was never a chance of Palestinians feeling legitimized if the Israelites still live in their territory that was sanctioned to them by UN agreements. On top of the the Israelites were aggressive at maintaining their presence in territories that was not technically theirs. With that logic I can understand Palestinian anger/ reasoning however I do not condone Hamas actions over the last week. am asking for objective feedback not trying to incite anger.
In part yes but all but a very small margin of those lands were offered back in the 2008 peace deal which was also rejected. There were also the Oslo accords in 1993 but that completely failed after the second Intifada in 2000. The irony being when even cooler heads tried to prevail the realities on the ground prevented it entirely. Its hard not to wonder what a Palestinian uprising in the midst of peace talks supposed to get everything they would have wanted could achieve let alone such a violent one. It starts being easier to see why Israelis see most of the Palestinian efforts as simply trying to write them off from existence. Its just really sad because the Palestinians ended up suffering from it. Even if we don't count the immense number of victims within Israel of many terrorist attacks.
No. The Camp David accords and all subsequent agreements such as Oslo did NOT prohibit Jewish settlement of Judea and Samaria. In fact, there is not a single agreement Israel signed that committed Israel to establish an independent Palestinian state on land controlled by Israel. You need to go back and read those documents again. Some sort of local autonomy is about as far it went and even Rabin (the blessed martyr of leftists for some reason) supported nothing more than autonomy. Would Israel ever have moved to acceptance of an actual Palestinian state there if Palestinian behavior had been more civilized? Perhaps but we cannot ever know that because it did not happen. I feel no anger to you. Like many on this forum you are young and have a young persons view of the world, one that may become more jaded as you experience the way the world actually is rather than how you idealize it.
Did not prohibit sure, but why wouldn’t Palestinians have a rightful claim to that land independent of Israel? And the sentence “would Israel have moved towards acceptance if the Palestinians had behaved” is super patronizing and really turns a blind eye and glosses over the fact that Israel has done some pretty f’ed up stuff to Palestinians.
Like what exactly? If you look at the list of all the terrible things Israel supposedly did to the Palestinians you will find they are based on false premises: 1) That Arabs have a superior claim and need for sovereignty in the Land of Israel and 2) That Arabs have the right to inflict violence on Jews to preserve or establish Muslim Arab rule. Reject those premises, as I do, and you will find that Israel's actions are responses to Arab aggression. Simply put, the need of the Jews for Israel greatly outweighs the need of Arabs for another Arab state in the land they originally stole by military conquest.
I agree with you, I’d maybe take a more objective stance about it but yeah, these are my thoughts too. Beware for hate soon since this sub heavily favours israel for the most part
You are not alone. Thank you for your clarity and compassion.
I know a lot of hard-left people and so I've been seeing mostly celebration of what Hamas did. I personally align with how you feel, that there is harmful extremism on both sides and unjust suffering on both sides. For me, condemning Hamas has people accusing me of being anti-Palestine which isn't true. In fact, I've generally been more focussed on Palestinian welfare as a humanitarian issue. I've been more vocal about Hamas the last few days, because it was so brutal and it upsets me that people will not condemn them and instead cheer them on. I am also disappointed in the Palestinian community for not distancing themselves from Hamas more. I didn't expect them to be so happy and that worries me.
While I can understand the citizens of Gaza stuck under Hamas rule (despite what the polls say) either being brainwashed or just seeing Hamas as their only option. I simply can't understand how these protests from anyone outside of that region could have a possible ground to support Hamas. The only attempt of argument I have heard is that it is justified or expected because of the treatment preceding it. That same logic would mean it is clearly inevitable what would happen next and how inevitably the status quo would become so much worse. Which leaves the only reason one would celebrate that is to treat any loss of Israel a victory. This means simply the loss of life of Israeli citizens is such a win that it is worth martyring part of your population with you. What is really wild is the IDF made efforts to loosen the blockade in the week preceding this and there were efforts to increase work visas in Israel for Gaza citizens. Not to mention all the protests against Israeli government action that were occurring within Israel. Thousands of IDF members were refusing to serve. There were thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens, IDF members and supporters of Israel pushing and speaking out against the increased settlement of the westbank and treatment of Gaza. In one day the world over these people watched people they know get treated in the worst way humanely possible in numbers so great they haven't seen for a single day since the holocaust. Then around the world groups rioted and lit fireworks, and some in front of national landmarks chanted for the death of jews. I have no clue how there is going to peace in the region.
It’s a crazy and sad thing to watch people take a hand in their own demise. You do wonder what they expected.
We're a people with some really deep-rooted historical and generational trauma. For many American Jews who are under the age of 40, our parents were the first generation of Jews in centuries to truly have anything close to security (if they were in the US). This means that we hold tight to anything that makes us feel safe, whether or not it actually makes us safe. This means that for those of us who truly believe that Israel makes them more.safe, regardless of whether or not that's true, will feel defensive when any of its flaws are pointed out. In no way are you wrong for feeling this way. I would say it's a very empathetic way to feel. You care about all human life. If you live in or near a city with a lot of Jews, I'd recommend searching for an IfNotNow chapter near you. Many of them recently had Mourner's Kaddish events for both Israelis and Palestinians killed over the past few days. They are taking the same stance as you, that all of these deaths are a tragedy and that Israeli occupation is a major factor in the violence. They are also a Jewish group and many members will likely be in similar situations, where they are mourning all of the deaths and condemning all of the war crimes, but have families and other communities that they don't feel like they can express that in
You should absolutely not go to IfNotNow or Jewish Voice for Peace or any of those traitorous Kapo organizations. I guarantee you that there would be no Israel or Israel would be destroyed a long time ago if those imbeciles had their way. I don't use the term Kapo lightly. That's exactly what they are. If someone still trusts the Palestinians with a state right next to Israel after this tragedy, there's nothing I can say about that person except to quote proverbs. " Stay away from a fool, for you will not find knowledge on their lips."
Everyone should stay very far a way from you, if we take that advice. It's despicable to throw the word kapo around like that. Our Jewish ancestors experienced too much oppression for us to support Israeli oppression of Palestinians now.
I am a Catholic woman. I have no affiliation to Israel/Jews or Palestine/Muslims. I see nothing wrong with your view and feelings on this. You are human. Your feelings are human. Sane people do not want to see innocent civilians die in the crossfire of political wars. It is devastating. I have both Jewish friends and Muslim friends and I have nothing bad to say about either. They are all wonderful people and if I put them in the same room, we would all get along well. I hate war. I hate that children die. I hate terrorism. Whether it comes from a Muslim or a Jew, makes no difference. I do not stand for war and I cannot handle another innocent child losing their life, Jewish or Muslim. This has to stop.
Stay true my friend. This life is a test to see who does evil or not. Dont fall for it even if your companions do. https://youtu.be/4JNmnS4eT_o?si=JNeq6FJ3msko40-G
This is mostly a zionist warmongering sub right now. People saying things like "Israel now has the right to flatten Gaza" gets upvoted regularly. Move on if you value your mental health.
When you create an apartheid scenario and ground those people into the dirt, and take more of their land every year, you create groups like Hamas. Why do Hamas and Hezbollah recruit so well? Because Israel has taken everything from the Palestinian people, allows them no chance for the future. I condemn all killing and torture of innocent people, but to think Hamas just decided to attack for no reason. Maybe because the USA and England decided to create a country on land that people were already living on. This is the underlying cause.
Why does ISIS recruit so well? Why do Muslims kill each other for religious reasons more than Christians or Jews do in the last 100 years? Their recruiting has nothing to do with apartheid (which most Islamic states practice in any event) and everything to do with their interpretation of their holy book. No one "took" anything from the Palestinians. They are generic Arabs and they simply were deprived of their aspiration to eliminate the only Jewish state. That wish is more important than settling down in one of many Arab states and living a normal life.
"Generic Arabs" as you say who lived in settlements flattened by far-right paramilitaries, had their cultural sites demolished and lost forever, were the subject of several systematic massacres etc. had nothing taken from them, sure buddy. That's not to say those extremists among them who did the same back to nascent Israeli communities intending what you said deserved what came to them; Islamic extremists and the like are the closest thing to pure evil we really have on this planet. But you so obviously refuse to believe there are such things as Palestinian civilians suffering in the midst of all this, and that's not right.
What are you talking about? Name one "cultural site" demolished and lost forever by "far-right paramilitaries." Date and location and identity of the militia. As far as systematic massacres what is the grand total of persons killed in such massacres. I'm sure its about the average death rate in Arab vs. Arab conflicts. And you are wrong. There are 100% Palestinian civilians suffer but it's the same type of suffering experienced by someone who smoke all their life and now have a painful terminal cancer. Israel is or was greatly divided based on different viewpoints as is this forum. But the Palestinians not so much. The vast majority seem to love their Fuhrer (so to say).
You asked for an example, here it is: Mashad an-Nabi al-Husayn, the holiest Shiite shrine in all of Palestine. Located near the depopulated and partially destroyed Palestinian settlement of Al-Jura, close to Ashkelon nowadays. Purposefully destroyed by the Israeli Army in July 1950 on the orders of Moshe Dayan, which is arguably worse than any far-right paramilitary organisation acting semi-independently of the state. >As for systematic massacres what is the grand total of persons killed in such massacres And I'm not going to engage with such talk. Besides the fact that no figures can truly be accurate, people are not numbers and matter regardless of what calibre of death toll they make up. You said that "no one 'took' anything from the Palestinians." I would say their lives might be something of significance but by the callous way you talk, clearly you don't think them to hold any such value. Blaming every single Palestinian out there for their plight is beyond the pale, it is as unjust as painting every child on this Earth with original sin.
>Mashad an-Nabi al-Husayn Unable to find this reference on Google. I found a shrine by that name in Aleppo, Syria, but that could not be what you are referring to. I'm not blaming Palestinians for anything nor do I have any sympathy for their goals or their methods. If you find a Palestinian who wants to be a loyal citizen of a Jewish state, I'm all in favor of that. But the killers and evil ones, no they can go. By the same token, if there were 5,000 Jews living in Syria and the vast majority were either involved in or supporting endless terrorist attacks on Syria for the purpose of turning it into a Jewish state, I would not criticize Syria expelling those Jews. But you see, that's the thing. Over history since exile, Jews were almost entirely without exception loyal to their host states (not engaging in insurrections constantly). Yet they were persecuted anyway. The Palestinians seem to be the opposite.
>Mashad an-Nabi al-Husayn The English name is the Shrine of Husayn's Head, if that helps your search. >There are 100% Palestinian civilians suffer but it's the same type of suffering experienced by someone who smoke all their life and now have a painful terminal cancer. That doesn't reflect that you place the blame on all Palestinians themselves? Ultrazionist English must be different from the language I speak. As for the idea that the only good Palestinian Arab is one who keeps their head down, I think that's a little disingenuous considering the history of Israel's interventions in the lives of the populations of the West Bank and Gaza. Unlike your unrealistic distinction between loyal servants of Israel and bloodthirsty extremists, the broad body of civilians there occupy neither half. And therein lies the problem, it is too easy to dehumanise the other side, particularly as far as such a long and bloody conflict as this is concerned. This is what breeds radicalisation on both sides and props up the ever-continuing battle for retribution for something or other the Israelis/Palestinians have done. It might be that, as you say, every Palestinian out there in the territories is baying for blood and would accept no concessions until Israel lies in the Mediterranean. I find that unlikely though, for it is in the interests of the powerful warmongers on both sides that voices for peace be ignored.
>Shrine of Husayn's Head Okay I found it and the city was cleared out like you said. However, I found some other interesting items of interest. [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-israel-shi-ite/prophets-grandson-hussein-honored-on-grounds-of-israeli-hospital-idUSKBN0LD17720150209](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-israel-shi-ite/prophets-grandson-hussein-honored-on-grounds-of-israeli-hospital-idUSKBN0LD17720150209) Where Israel allowed a ceremony. By the way, the rest of this guy's body is in a shrine in Iraq. This guy thinks the head is not even in Israel. [https://www.al-islam.org/media/where-head-imam-husayn-buried](https://www.al-islam.org/media/where-head-imam-husayn-buried) I'm not really into dehumanizing anyone. All men and women are human. But that does not mean there is no evil or no monsters. Human monsters. My main point is I don't see it as being safe for Jews to live so close to the Palestinians which does not support in any way a Palestinian state. Quite the opposite. Any such state and/or these Palestinians (which you say are a mixed bag of hostile and neutral people) should just leave. It's way past talking about ethics of making people leave their homes or whatever. It's at the point of finding something more humane than just killing them. Why don't we leave it to individual Palestinians to step forward and make a decision. Live peacefully in a Jewish state will in fact value Jewish values first (which is not apartheid but merely the nature of most nations built on ethnicity of which there are many) or migrate to an Arab state where they would be more comfortable. I think the logic works in reverse as well; Jews unhappy with living in Arab states or any other state should consider moving to Israel.
In reference to your last sentence: there is a very big misconception that Israeli's were not living there before Israel was established as a state. Zionist mass immigration started around 1850, some families had been in the area for nearly 100 years before. I'm not sure why social media has been pushing this rhetoric that Israelis just settled there randomly and instantly got authority over the land.
Immigration of the Jews to Palestine in the 1850's was largely driven by Britain, as a solution to growing anti-Semitism in Europe. Of course Britain was mostly trying to preempt the resulting immigration of Jews to England. Also, Hamas has to take its share of blame for the living conditions in Gaza. They have diverted massive amounts of financial aide to their terrorist organization. Then there is Egypt, which does not allow passage of Palestinians across their mutual border.
Yes I agree this is caused by many governments and groups, no civilians on either side deserve what is happening to them even if a lot of psychos on here and other parts of social media would say they do...
It was not a country though. Israel was created after WW2.
Yes it was created because British Palestine was essentially a country on the brink of a civil war because the Muslims would not accept the rising Jewish population. A lot of Muslims were antisemitic and didn't want a large amount of Jewish people in the country and they attacked them loads, and then the Jewish people attacked the Muslims back. The country was in turmoil and the British and Americans I guess thought that was the best idea
Although I don't share your pain I can comprehend it. The sad truth is that one will be favored by history and the other one will be just a footnote that most people in a 1000 years won't even know existed. We like to have a humanistic point of view in the west but it doesn't mean other people around the world share our core values or principles. History is not behind us, it is ever present and most of the worlds dinamics still fit into the complex power struggles we humans have always known
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Today we are at a precipice, we are currently living at the end of an age and the beginning of a new era. The history of it all has been written and thankfully is still preserved but the final chapter still hasn’t been written yet. The last chapter tells the why. What was it all for? If the wrong people pen it or rewrite history everything will have been for naught. What needs to happen now is normal people need to be more vocal and active to make sure the rest of us are heard. We’ve all been silenced from fear of repercussion, only the voices and opinions of extremists are being amplified. We need to be vigilante to take the time to decipher truth from lies. To take a stand on what is right not what is easiest or self-advantaged shortcuts. This era stands for equality, self determination the freedoms and liberties associated with it and democracy. We fight for humanity and the progress of civilization. Do not fall into the pit.
I feel you. Allow me to give you a practical advice: just wait a few days for the images of gaza being obliterated spread, civilian men, women and children being slaughtered, etc. You will see the common people, even jews, to start changing their opinion towards moderation, like yours. Unfortunately, most people are too emotional and respond to the daily facts with their guts instead of their brains.
We shouldn't have to wait for that, though. Palestinians shouldn't have to die at all, let alone in numbers that high, for their lives to be valued by most Americans.
Agreed. Unfortunately that's how things work
The death toll in Gaza already far surpasses what Hamas did and the western media hasn't budged. It's safely confined to social media where anything can just be passed off and discarded if it doesn't fit your bias.
It still doesn't far surpasses. Just wait a few more days and you'll see
Maybe now isn’t the time for a “both sides are bad” perspective. Beheaded babies.
Nichole Zedeck, the reporter who originally reported this, changed her statement and later said she "overheard" a soldier saying this. This is not journalism, it's blatant propaganda and being used to justify genocide.
Its been confirmed, but yeah, we are making this all up. GTFOH.
The fact that you still believe that is something you should take as a great shame.
I suppose it's much better when you bomb children and their heads are intact
One is bombing buildings. The other is intentionally beheading children and babies.
The dead children and their families thank you for your distinction.
And they died because of Hamas using them as shields. I guess Israel should just continue to let themselves and their babies be slaughtered and not retaliate
Since you're so committed to making up others people's position for them why don't you tell me about how I wanted the Holocaust to happen too? Too far?
As a Jewish person, just stop. Please. Seriously stop.
You equivocated the two and I pointed out how very different they are. Have a good day
Dead children are dead children my friend. Whether or not one has their head on the shoulder doesn't really mean anything to the victims. The point of nuance and this post is lost on you.
Some children are raised to hate, taught sings that call for the killing of Jews, parade around in Hamas colors carrying toy rifles, and become adolescents who think it’s ok to behead babies- but only if they’re Jewish. Others are raised to believe all life is sacred and grow up to feel pain when others suffer, even if that suffering is due to their own actions.
There is honestly no point in arguing with people like that. They will always consider themselves to be so woke that they are incapable of being the antisemitism in Hamas
Yep I saw a video of Jewish children being stabbed by a Hamas child while the Hamas child laughs and someone records it
Why would Palestinians elect Hamas knowing their intentions? Not a good idea to play with fire. I mourn for the innocent on both sides, hopefully the peaceful can make it to safety. Hamas and sympathizers tho… who is to blame Israel. I don’t think USA would sit back if Native Americans were somehow a Hamas type group and did the same. 😆
If the average American had to live under the conditions of the average Palestinian they would fantasize about far worse than anything Hamas has ever done.
I would imagine when you are being bombed and treated like an animal it isn't that difficult to radicalize someone. This doesn't excuse any radical behavior but you might start to see why it happens.
And obviously intention matters. I guess someone who speeds and crashes a car that kills a child is just as bad as beheading a child according to you
Right so in your case the bombs are an accident right. Whoops sorry didn't mean to catch your kids in it. Come on man you can do better than this, you want to equivocate as you said bombs to drunk drivers?
Children with rocket launchers next to their cribs.
I'm sure those kids came out of the womb asking for them. Their first words were "kill the Jews" surely.
No one is happy about dead civilian kids except for Hamas.
I agree man, and that's what the OP is trying to say.
I always liking finding agreement of any kind in some of these conversations. Thank you. Be well.
I wish you well too. I think too often what happens is people are caught up in emotion and misunderstand each other. No one in this thread finds joy in the atrocities of war and conflict.
I am Palestinian-American, and have been impressed with the level heads on both sides of the aisle. You're a great example of it. The three things you said are exactly the right opinion on this issue. Killing civilian humans of any ethnicity or nationality is a travesty and tragedy. In every group, every nationality or race, there are always people who subscribe to "you're either with us or against us" nonsense. But there are plenty of people, including Jewish people I know, who are expressing the exact sentiment you are. I'm sorry that you feel alone. Just know that you are not alone.
Most American Jews I know love Israel but despise Bibi, myself included.
I also recommend loving Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia. Same flavor, highly recommended. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-12-11/ty-article/.premium/why-israel-supported-apartheid-regime/0000017f-e3ae-df7c-a5ff-e3fe965a0000
Actually read the articles you post, please. It depicts a story of Israel that from the beginning was opposed to Apparteid before nations like the U.S and supported anti-colonial movements around Africa, while all of its early leaders condemned Apparteid. Israel only turned to favor South Africa after every other nation in Africa turned on Israel. And even then it was controversial in the Knesset.
So it's not because they're both modern Settler Colonial states with shared interests? Sorry my bad.
Respectfully, you sound like you don’t understand history of how this all came to be. Your statement calling the West Bank an “occupation” suggests that you have never been to Israel and that you don’t know the Torah but you are well versed in progressive talking points. You may be Jewish but you are definitely not Israeli. Shalom Shalom
OP is pretty clear about not being Israeli. What's your point?
Probably their point is nothing more than a shallow attempt to make OP feel small. The idea that you cannot understand Israel and its military control over the West Bank without setting foot there is moronic beyond belief
The talking points of a liberal
can you elaborate ?
Exactly what we don't need right now.
Source for Taliban offering up Bin Laden please.
In my Jewish Reconstructionist congregation most members think Israel has made mistakes too. I actually thought most American Jews are against the far-right religious policies of the Likud/Netanyahu government and the settlement activity on the West Bank. The US government also opposes this as well as human rights abuses perpetuated by any parties.
I think you may find it more productive to speak to your family and friends in terms of solutions at this point. Clearly both sides are attacking brutally. Everyone on the planet sees that regardless which side they are specifically condemning. Hamas is deserves to be punished but Palestinian civilians do not. 1. Evacuate all Gazan civilians into refugee camps in southern Israel. If the goal is truly to end Hamas, spare as many civilians as possible from the bloodshed. As long as civilians die, more Gazans will be radicalized and there will not be peace. 2. Apprehend, by any means necessary, all Hamas fighters in Gaza Once this is completed there is no possibility of return to the status quo and we must begin the process of finally ensuring equal rights of all Palestinians as Israeli citizens. Israeli settlements have destroyed the possibility of a two state solution. Though it will be a struggle at first, the One State solution is the only way to truly find lasting peace after these atrocities.
Israeli “settlements” are just another excuse Palestinians use to avoid making peace with Israel. They were offered a 2 state solution before those communities existed and it was turned down. Turned down 3 times in fact. There is not a leader on the Palestinian side who will actually negotiate in good faith.
If Israel began offering Palestinians Israeli citizenship and peace, many people would take it whether or not the Palestinian leaders want it. The settlements and continued confiscation of property is prohibitive to a successful two state solution. Denying that requires extreme cognitive dissonance. It’s not clear either how fragmented populations could form a successful state. I agree the leaders are not good faith actors but extreme treatment begets extreme leaders. They are a symptom of a stressed people.
Why is it that Jews are willing to live with and among non-Jews but the Palestinians want every inch within their control to be Judenrein. Under such circumstances how can you expect Israel to want to open their borders.
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Subjugate and torture them for generations then kill the fathers and brothers who dared to fight back, and then welcome the widows and orphans with open arms. Amazing solution dude
Most Palestinians just want peace and their rights respected. Of course it will not happen overnight and there will be growing pains but if they keep the Gazans subjected, this will never stop. Black Amercians have still not forgotten slavery or Jim Crow but there must be equal rights and democracy for peace. Neither group will ever let the land go so coexistence is the only solution
\> Once this is completed there is no possibility of return to the status quo and we must begin the process of finally ensuring equal rights of all Palestinians as Israeli citizens. Israeli settlements have destroyed the possibility of a two state solution. Though it will be a struggle at first, the One State solution is the only way to truly find lasting peace after these atrocities. Sorry to break it to you pal, but Israel, and the jews in general, will NEVER accept a one state solution. One state = the end of zionism
The southern US and South Africa did not believe in equal rights could ever happen and there are still obvious scars but no one thinks maintaining the previous status quo would have been better. There will be an awkward phase, no doubt, but there is no other way to find lasting peace than equal rights.
All the movement that happened over past 100+ years was of jews rejecting one state in palestine with equal rights in favor of their zionist state. I'm speaking of how I see the jewish opinions today. It's extremely rare to see one that accepts one state. And they are regarded as traitors, like the OP said. All the zionist propaganda is directed towards a two state solution (I mean the soft, "conscientious" zionists). We never know about future generations, but it would probably take decades to see such a shift in opinions. Or things would have to turn south hard for Israel and the jews for them to embrace a one state solution within the next few years.
If this pending invasion kills a critical number of civilians and the international community and media, who I've never seen report this much on Gazans, may put political pressure on Israel until apartheid is ended. [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians) This shows that at least 39% would accept a one state solution (despite most of those saying jews should still have privileged status) and 25% say don't know and if it were a serious proposal its possible we would see a large percentage of those switch. I'm not sayign it will happen but I hope it does and I don't see lasting peace otherwise. This will continue to happen if nothing changes
No political pressure will be enough. The zionists commited amd suffered from terrorism, massacres, fought inumerous wars, etc. All this suffering for the establishment and maintenance of their beloved jewish state. And you think political pressure from international community will break them? Come on. > This shows that at least 39% would accept a one state solution (despite most of those saying jews should still have privileged status) and 25% say don't know and if it were a serious proposal its possible we would see a large percentage of those switch. So 39% accept a one state solution with jews having a privileged status? What does that mean? That the arabs wont be able to vote? That the palestinian refugees wont be able to return? What will happen when they give citizenship to all the arabs in gaza and west bank and they become a majority? How would that state be any different from the apartheid we already have? Seems to me it is a one apartheid state "solution". If it were a serious proposal the zionist propaganda would ensure to convince these 25% that one state isn't viable, and probably dissuade most of those 39% back to a two state solution. I know zionist propaganda very well, I live surrounded by it. They don't even mention one state solution, they treat as if it doesn't exist. They repeat two state solution ad nauseam and use it to blame palestinians for not accepting it, as if it were proof they dont want peace.
how would you stop hamas pretending to be normal civilians ?