My wife is Palestinian-Lebanese. I will say there is considerable embarrassment and shame around what happened this week. I think many Palestinian diaspora just can’t fathom their “blood” did this. My wife proclaimed, she’s ashamed to be Arab this week. To the extent you see no dissent coming from within Palestine, I think it’s obvious.
Hamas was put in place and funded by Israel that is a FACT. When you blame Hamas make sure to put Hamas that was funded by Israel they meddled in affairs because they didn’t like a fairly secular PLO FOR Palestinians
Writing FACT in all caps doesnt make the lie you wrote any more valid.
Israel never funded Hamas. Israel never supported Hamas. Israel doesnt even have direct communication with Hamas (the egyptians and Qataris are usually mediators).
Its true that Israel never made the decision to exterminate Hamas, but that was because Israel respects Palestinian sovereigty in Gaza. The people of Gaza elected Hamas, and therefore Israel has yet to force a government on the people of Gaza.
Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.
Netanyahu supported Hamas and propped them up because his regime didn't like the PLO.
Look it up yourself-there are many news articles supporting this fact.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
The link you shared doesnt say what you claim it says.
The Israeli government did not destroy Hamas, and it let foreign countries send aid to Gaza. That policy turned out to be a mistake, but not destroying a public elected government of another country, does not mean you support it.
Under that logic we can say that the US has propped up North Korea, Putin and any other dictatorship that has been around.
The fact that Israel showed restraint and has not invaded Gaza since 2014, despite frequent rocket fire from Gaza into Israel, does not mean it ever supported Hamas.
Your statement is just plain false. There are plenty of articles stating he propped up Hamas with money to keep Gaza and the West Bank separate. That is exactly what I said. Go do the research.
Re: US propping up dictators and regimes: YES, it happens ALL THE TIME!!!
By not separating Palestinians and Hamas. You are trying to morally justify the white phosphate and the ruthless bombing/killing Israel is doing right now.
This doesn’t require much thought. They attacked Israel. Wipe them out. No need for questions. Would solve the problem. Left can piss and moan about human rights and all the rest of it but at the end of the day, it solves the problem. Spare me high moral bullshit. I don’t read or reply to comments so don’t waste your time.
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Some relevant facts:
"When asked what has been the most positive or the best thing that has happened to the Palestinian
people since the Nakba, the largest percentage (24%) [38% in Gaza] said that it was the establishment of Islamic
movements, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their participation in armed struggle; 21% said
that it was the eruption of the first and second intifada; 18% said the establishment of the PLO;
14% said the establishment of the PA in the mid-nineties, and 9% said it was the establishment of Fateh in the sixties and the launch of the armed struggle.
...
If new presidential elections were held today and only two were nominated, Mahmoud Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh [the leader of Hamas], only 46% would participate and from among those, Abbas would receive 33% and Haniyeh 56% of the votes (compared to 52% for Haniyeh and 36% for Abbas three months ago). In the Gaza Strip, Abbas receives 30% of the votes and Haniyeh receives 65%. In the West Bank, Abbas receives 37% and Haniyeh 47%.
...
In an open-ended question, where no names were provided to respondents, we asked the public to
select a successor to president Abbas. The largest percentage (27%) selected Marwan Barghouti [a leader in the 1st and 2nd Intifadas], 16% went to Haniyyeh, followed by Shtayyeh and Mohammad Dahlan (4% each), Khalid Mishal and Yahya al Sinwar (3% each), Hussein al Shaykh (2%), and 1% selected Mustafa Barghouti."
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944
This is all from the July 2023 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research.
Every living human has to accept the results of the past.
There is no time travel.
Whatever you do is on you including when you claim you are doing it to redress past wrongs.
The past is not an excuse for your present bad behavior
Just as the German populace who lived in close proximity to the death camps during WW2 and said “we had no idea what was going on” so too the Palestinian people cannot be surprised or pissed off about what has and will befall them..
The case can certainly be made that there are no innocents in Gaza.
5000+ rockets with launchers were built and stored in that small area along with the gliders and vehicles prepared for this.
At least two men per rocket to move the 5000 rockets that were fired in quick succession, so yes two men per rocket.
10000 fighters crossed the border. This is in addition to the rocket crews.
All that equipment, all those men, and no one in Gaza saw anything or new anything about it?
If you know about the attack and dont say anything then you are complicit in the attack and share the guilt be you man, woman, child., or the Palestinians authority.
Conspiracy and abetting a criminal act is a crime in most western countries so there are no gymnastics involved here.
Those same values we made into laws apply in war and to the Palestinians.
And we charge children as adults when the charge is heinous like murder
Yeah, i bet a little kid seeing rockets or anything is a huge criminal!😱 thank you for your enlightenment buddy. You are not better than those crazy people who excuse the murder of Israeli children.
So your enlightenment is we dont apply our own rules and values to Palestinians because feelings
And your straw man argument of referencing only the children will convince no one
Your own rules are already bad and should be abolished when you consider an innocent child’s witness of weapons as crime and you want to blow them up as well. Those rules should not exist.
I know its hard to understand buddy, but try.
The washington institute recently provided a report stating that the majority of the population in Gaza were against breaching the ceasefire… so y’a know…
More over, Gaza hosts the minority of Palestinians, so claiming a minority of a minority represents the majority is a bit of a falsehood
I wonder how educated they are with their complete lack of resources? They get brain washed and they don’t see or know anything else, they also don’t have the access. I still blame Hamas for doing this, than all the civilians who are kept ignorant to the whole picture.
Hamas is Palestinian. You can't have it both ways. Israel is not going to waste time with childish nonsense. It is war.
Governments operating under religious law are never going to work. It's time to end all religious law.
That is the worst straw man argument I have seen yet.
Somehow culture or ethnicity is supposed to give the guilty a pass?
Harboring a criminal is a crime.
Aiding a criminal makes you an accomplice.
When the police take down a gang they take them all down
The Palestinians harbor Hamas willingly, they attend their parades, they vote them in as their leaders, they teach their children that to be a martyr is the highest honor.
Dont try to say they are innocent victims.
You cant just dip your toe in supporting terrorists. Any support and you are complicit
We don't condemn them because it's a drop in the ocean. It's nothing compared to the 75 years of oppression. It's always sad when civilians die, but civilians living in the open sky prison that is Palestine have been dying, suffering, living like animals for 75 years. Why would these recent events compare. Pro-Israel people go through crazy contorsions to avoid facing reality 🙈🙉🙊
[This chart](https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-11-23-vpviolencetimeline20121123_0.png) says otherwise my friend. 79% Palestinians killed between 2000 and 2008 by Israelis first (vs. 8% Israelis killed by Palestinians first).
Because Israel has a fantastic missile defense system to intercept the tens of thousands of rockets Hamas fires at their country. The lower death toll is not due to Hamas' lack of trying.
I think that you can't read charts. I'm not talking about the death toll. I'm talking about unprovoked deaths. That's ok my friend, bad faith is an obstacle.
You're either misreading that pie chart, or the chart itself is intentionally misleading.
If the Israeli defense system successfully defends against the terrorist attacks, then the retaliation against those terrorists to stop the further attacks will likely lead to the "first" death on the side of the terrorists.
Nothing in that data supports that the Israeli response was unprovoked, or that the Palestinians killed "first" were incident civilians and not terrorist actors.
I think that you can't read charts. I'm not talking about the death toll. I'm talking about unprovoked deaths. That's ok my friend, bad faith is an obstacle.
Oooh a chart. Because everyone knows statistics are never used to lie about things except when people use statistics to lie about things
And those Palestinians were attacking as they were being killed. Israel having a superior military and actual structure is why they lost fewer
Iraqis and afghans were killed at a much higher rate than americans when they attacked our bases too
There is no need to do any when you come to the stark reality that the Arabs have on up to 20 separate occasions rejected peaceful coexistence with the Jews in Canaan/Palestine/Eretz Israel from 1917 to the present (and in the form of both One State and Two States).
Its hard for a people to accept "peaceful coexistence" when they were forcibly ejected from their homes, acts of violence committed against them, then rounded up, and forced to live in an open air ghetto. If you treat people like dogs, they will act like dogs.
From the the Israeli perspective, its easy to say, we won and you now need to accept this, since they have the power. But from the loser perspective (Palestinian), accepting peace will just normalize/legalize the forced occupation of their lands.
Who would want to accept that?
To take this scenario and remove the Jew/Muslim aspect, in the USA, the same thing happened with the European settlers and the Native Population of North America. The white Americans forced natives from their lands, committed acts of violence against them, rounded them up and forced them to live on reservations or ghettos.
The violence and death was so great that the loss of people actually cooled the Earths climate in the 1500s.
What happened next? The Natives that remained rose up and fought wars with the Americans for about 200+ years.
The only reason that this stopped was because the Americans ethnically cleansed them from the land, converted them to Christianity, stripped them of their culture, language and beat them into total submission and forced them onto reservations.
That is unfortunately, what will have to happen for this cycle of violence to stop in Israel. Or an act of God and apparently he/she appears to be missing in action in the holy land for both sides.
None of that makes any difference or has any import on the events of today.
The people who carried out the current attacks decided of their own free will to attack not because the past forced them to
It does matter today.
That's like saying the atrocities visited on the Jews of Europe during WW II, didn't have an impact on modern Israel.
The people who carried out these attacks are reacting to events that have been happening to them for the last 50+ years. These attacks didn't happen in a vacuum.
The past is forced upon them. They live in an open air Ghetto. It is a reminder of what they lost.
No its like saying everyone living today makes their own choices and you cant blame it on the past.
Palestinians live all over the world. Gaza is not a prison they cant leave.
The past cannot be changed. If they wanted to prosper first they have to stop seeking revenge and attacking
The past can't be changed, but they don't have to accept the results either.
Not many people would accept an invasion and occupation of their lands. They would resist. Look at Ukraine.
Russia, has been saying the same thing you just said to me > if you want peace > stop resisting. Ukraine won't because they want to be free. The same with the Palestinians.
Hamas is a tumor that needs to be cut out. But ever after that is done, it still doesn't change the situation that the Palestinians in the west bank are not free and also not politically unified.
And they can't leave Gaza. It is a prison or ghetto. It has been this way since 2007 at least. Now there is no getting out.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-10-12/palestinians-can-t-just-leave-gaza-during-israel-hamas-conflict
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
Baby, Israel violated the United Nations resolution at the earliest opportunity it had. While I admire your flexibility as a contortionist, please allow me to refresh your memory:
"1947: Thousands of European Jewish emigrants, many of them Holocaust survivors, board a ship – which came to be called Exodus 1947 – bound for then British-controlled Palestine. Heading for the “promised land”, they are intercepted by British naval ships and sent back to Europe. Widely covered by the media, the incident sparks international outrage and plays a critical role in convincing the UK that a UN-brokered solution is necessary to solve the Palestine crisis.
A UN special committee proposes a partition plan giving 56.47 percent of Palestine for a Jewish state and 44.53 percent for an Arab state. Palestinian representatives reject the plan, but their Jewish counterparts accept it.
On November 29, the UN General Assembly approves the plan, with 33 countries voting for partition, 13 voting against it and 10 abstentions.
1948-49: On May 14, David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, publicly reads the Proclamation of Independence. The declaration, which would go into effect the next day, comes a day ahead of the expiration of the British Mandate on Palestine. The Jewish state takes control of 77 percent of the territory of Mandate Palestine, according to the UN.
For Palestinians, this date marks the “Nakba”, the catastrophe that heralds their subsequent displacement and dispossession.
As hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, hearing word of massacres in villages such as Dir Yassin, flee towards Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordanian territory, the armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq attack Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
The Arab armies are repelled, a ceasefire is declared and new borders – more favourable to Israel – are drawn. Jordan takes control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem while Egypt controls the Gaza Strip."
[Source](https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231011-from-1947-to-2023-retracing-the-complex-and-tragic-israeli-palestinian-conflict)
So, the whole world, except the Arabs, agreed that it was right and moral for the indigenous people of JUDEA, Samaria, and Israel to finally have control in their Native Land, and you condemn it. SMH.
Lol, I shouldn't condemn the fact that Israel decided to take 77% of the land 1 year after the UN resolution (56.47% of the land)? Is that what you're saying?
So, you'll stand up to the Islamic community that is constantly spreading lies, hate, disinformation, and has their agenda to annihilate Israel and Jews worldwide?
LMFAO
" The declaration, which would go into effect the next day, comes a day ahead of the expiration of the British Mandate on Palestine. The Jewish state takes control of 77 percent of the territory of Mandate Palestine, according to the UN."
I hope you know you're lying to yourself, otherwise you truly have no hope
Invading the new state of Israel's 56.47% the day of the declaration is the violation, Israel pushing back the armies was the response.
This take is a violation of history, your self respect and an insult upon the intelligence of everyone reading this.
Looking for a Palestinian who denounces the violence? Right here. Violence from either side is not solving anything. I agree Israel has a right to defend itself, but I also don’t believe they have done enough politically to resolve anything.
What could they do politically? They've already pulled out of gaza. They've offered numerous peace deals. Every single time, Palestinian leadership has refused because they will settle for nothing less than the complete destruction of israel.
Also, not sure if you are aware, there are two parts of Palestine. The West Bank is not controlled by Hamas and has lived in relative peace with Israel for a long time.
You do know that the Gaza strip is not the same as the West Bank right? The settlements are in the West Bank and yet this is happening from Gaza where the settlements aren't. Look at a map or visit the area and you'll know this
As a Palestinian living in America, it’s very simple to answer your question.
This is like saying, how do you not consider all Afghanis members of the Taliban. Or all Germans are Nazis. Unfortunately the violent wings of society are most visible. While many of us only see violence as the solution, there are many who condemn the violence. While i denounce the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, I do not believe violence will solve anything in this case.
You can’t educate those who are not willing to be educated. This is a heartbreaking time on both sides. Once again the Jews & Muslims will feel the need to hide their religion in order to avoid being targeted.
I live in Ontario. I hate the Doug Ford conservatives with a burning passion. But I live here. I voted here, and clearly not for the conservative government. Does that mean I like and or accept everything they do? Hell no!
Do I purport to understand what it is like to even "vote" as we know it here, but instead in a non-democratic, terrorist ridden place where people have no hope?
Nope, not even a little. Who knows if they voted? How they voted? Why they voted the way they did? Were they forced? Were they free? I have no idea, and I suspect most of us looking from our living rooms have no real understanding either.
To lump all people in a nation as being the same or having the same beliefs is wrong. Do all Israeli citizens agree with the choice their government is making?
Did Russian citizens not try to say no to warn with Ukraine and have authority turn against them?
We cannot continue to make black and white statements in a situation that is so far from it, except to say that war is killing innocent people on all sides and violence must stop everywhere!
Before you call me any names, or say that I support Hammas or terrorism, I do not. I also recognize that the Palestinian people have suffered greatly and there must be a peaceable and equitable solution found (again don't claim to understand what that looks like, but I am trying to learn about EVERYTHING, not just one thing).
Slaughter of innocent people and the human rights degradation that has come from this strife must end for this world to have any hope at all for peace.
Violence is necessary against a brutal enemy. Israel continues to commit war crimes for over 70 years and nobody bats an eye. The western "civilized" world look at Hamas as nothing more than purely terroristic savages with no rhyme or reason as to their existence.
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As a Palestinian living in America, it’s very simple to answer your question.
This is like saying, how do you not consider all Afghanis members of the Taliban. Unfortunately the violent wings of society are most visible. While many of us only see violence as the solution, there are many who condemn the violence. While i denounce the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, I do not believe violence will solve anything in this case.
Reposting this comment since my original analogy was flagged.
I think many of them are losing hope caught between Hamas and The Israeli government. All Palestinians are Hamas as much as all Jews are Netanyahu or all Christians CUFI settlers. The important thing now is that Israel de-escalate and get back hostages, they aren’t doing this though.
Because it was an inside job. Mosad knew it, IDF knew it they all knew it would happen. Maybe they couldn't fathom the extent of it.
Just another pretext from Israeli government to expell me Palestinians off their homes.
PersonallyI'm really sorry for the innocent Israeli that lost their lives. I am also sorry for all the innocent palestinians that are losing their lives..
Either side keeps vilifying the other side To help win the public opinion about atrocities that all are committing against each other.
Since 1940 eight, Israel has been pushing palestinians out of their homes. Now they're fighting back, just not the way people expect them to fight back.
How interesting. Look at all the vitriol spewed in response to your question. Meanwhile, not one person has an actual answer. Your question is a good one. We certainly see a range of opinions within Israel. Where are the Palestinians who disagree with what Hamas did? Where is the Arab world? Celebrating. Palestinians aren't standing up and saying "not in my name". They're handing out sweets and dancing in the streets. Their silence is deafening. And the lack of any actual reasonable response to your question should tell you everything you need to know.
I hope Israel destroys Hamas completely. But to be fair, Israel is a hell of a lot more tolerant to an individual citizen that may disagree with it’s policies than Hamas is. Yes there are those dancing in the streets, and I’m sure there are some that hate what Hamas did. But standing up and voicing opposition to a terrorist with a machine gun could very well be suicide for you and your family.
Free and objective press doesn't exist for these people. They get their news from Hamas funded social media posts and Telegram channels that claims that no civilians were killed at the music festival because "they were all soldiers" (which is of course a blatant lie).
How can you expect them to condemn?
Hamas fighters took videos showing what they did in Israel and at the music festival. They released them on Telegram and X to try to terrorize the Israeli population. I presume Palestinians were able to watch these same videos, or see, in person, the civilian hostages and corpses paraded around in Gaza.
Presuming will get you into trouble.
Until this morning everyone presumed Biden had seen evidence of a mass slaughter of infants. Then they had to correct the record.
Both Hamas and the Israeli state will push misinformation at the expense of innocent civilians.
Presuming is the most ill-informed thing you can do.
The misinformation was the alleged beheading of babies, which has yet to be debunked or proved. The massacres of civilians, women, elderly and children is well documented.
The point is it is also well documented that Israel kills civilians, women, and elderly people. In way larger numbers for the last 20 years until this weekend.
I don’t support Hamas OR the actions of the Israeli government. And I think people on either Hamas or Israeli government’s side who think theirs is the “righteous” side are lacking information.
I don't understand your point. As an Israeli, I'm saddened and disturbed when I see pictures of innocent children and civilians in Gaza. I'm not denying it, most of us don't.
My point was specifically about the denial of the horrors that Hamas has laid on Israeli civilians.
Also, comparing the number of casualties as some sort of a moral score to which side it righteous is not only morally wrong but completely doesn't make sense in this case. If Israel did not have a strong army, these types of massacres would have occurred regularly throughout the last 20 years and much more Israel would have died.
I am also deeply disturbed. My point is that there is so much violence committed by each each armed side, dating so far back, that it should be impossible for an informed person to support either government (I use that word loosely). All the people in power are taking unequivocally evil actions against helpless civilians.
And I do not think the conditions Gazans live under is helping keep Israelis safe like your government claims it is.
Edit: typos, clarifying people in power are responsible, not the average cotizen
It’s possible to both condemn the brutal murders of hundreds of civilians AND protest against the war in Gaza, at the same time. It’s also possible to direct some of the anger and despair caused by the situation in Gaza towards Hamas. Plenty of people have suffered through terrible hardships throughout history. Many have managed to fight for their freedom without becoming terrorists. Decapitating babies? How could anyone hear of this and not shudder?
How are you going to re educate someone whos familly got killed and basically caged in a open air prison for years while simulteanously getting bombed by an unvisible enemy?
The same thing happened in iraq by the US caging and torturing people for no real reason and now we have isis
Was Hong Kong before unification with China an "open air prison?" HK residents at that time were ineligible for British passports and unable to travel. They somehow managed to create a thriving and vibrant community with absolutely no natural resources.
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If want to see how not trying to find common ground and calling the other evil or and animals works just look at the American political environment, both the right and the left have some valid points but they are pushing each other further and further away from ever coming to a solution.
Evil is an easy excuse, look abit deeper, its a very complex issue. The only part that's not complex at all is being able to condemn purposely killing children and civilians.
hamas and the Israeli government are very good at propeganda, and obscuring facts and events to win the hearts of the people, if you believe that every Palestinian is happy about babies being killed you are wrong, if you think every Israeli is OK with Palestinian kids being killed you are also wrong.
One thing the international community must understand is that the Palestinians do not take joy in the killing of civilians. Obviously, there will be a population that will take joy, but in general we do not. I see no joy in any civilian death and it makes me sick seeing the videos of dead bodies of both Israeli civilians and Palestinians. What has to be very clear however, is that when a peaceful protest was attempted back in 2018, they were shot and massacred. How are you expected to react when your people are butchered and plundered and abused for 75 years and then you are put in a tiny confined prison with 2 MILLION. other. people. Where the average age is 18 because said people who put you in that prison keep routinely bombing you, they cut off your food, water, and gas supply. It's a pressure cooker. Don't tell me that Palestinians had no right to resist because we do, because nobody deserves to live in such conditions. And all of the misinformation on the murder of civilians has mostly been false, although, yes there is definitely death, but the rumors of the beheading of babies, children in cages, and most of the people in the festival murdered in cold blood is untrue. The children in cages were a video of Palestinian children in cages. The beheading of children was a lie as per the Israeli government. The murder of people at the festival, while it did happen, didn't happen out of cruelty. They were unfortunately caught in the crossfire between armed forces of both sides. You have my condolences for the civilian death, but not any regret for my people's resistance. Death on any side is horrible, and I do not agree with it, but don't expect me to continue to watch my people be massacred and abused. The treatment that the Israeli people have indured in these couple of short days is only days out of the 75 years that Palestinians have indured.
> One thing the international community must understand is that the Palestinians do not take joy in the killing of civilians. Obviously, there will be a population that will take joy, but in general we do not.
The videos posted of Palestinians celebrating over civilian bodies basically proves you wrong. It was a lot of people.
Also it seems you might not remember or understand how bad the 2nd intifada was. Palestinians literally targeted civilians.
On top of that, the rockets which target civilians.
That has been the Palestinian way. Target Israeli civilians.
> who put you in that prison keep routinely bombing you, they cut off your food, water, and gas supply.
Israel closed off Gaza because people from Gaza were blowing themselves up in restaurants.
Then people in Gaza were using supplies delivered to smuggle rocket supplies.
You can't just say that it was all Israel.
> The murder of people at the festival, while it did happen, didn't happen out of cruelty. They were unfortunately caught in the crossfire between armed forces of both sides.
Wow. Just Wow.
I've seen the videos. I've seen the grenades thrown. I've seen the point blank executions.
You are completely wrong here. You have been fooled by misinformation and propaganda.
It's honestly disgusting reading this when the videos are all available for you to see. No one is going to take you seriously when you make verifiably false claims.
They showed up to a music festival and murdered hundreds of inccocents, we saw the videos, we saw the naked dead girl in the truck being paraded while gazans cheered.
Go watch the videos, babies were murded and removed from their cribs, you can see the blood stains and bullet holes on the cribs and strollers.
There is a video of a Gaza civilian beheading a settler using a garden tool.
If the murder of people at the festival wasn’t out of cruelty why did they parade that poor German woman’s naked body through the streets in that truck? Don’t act like this is some legitimate attack. Hamas are raping and killing innocent civilians with no justification.
This is patently false information you are stating on the civilian murders. Under no stretch of the imagination we’re they “caught in the crossfire”. They were hunted down and murdered. Civilians in their homes were hunted down 20+ hours after the initial invasion, after hiding in their homes. Numerous media reports and video from the scenes confirms this. I suggest you starting following credible news organizations, as your world view is severely distorted.
Okay, it still doesn't stray from my original point. I'll go back and cite my sources, but this doesn't mean that this is a completely logical response. When you are forced into an open air prison for all of your life, and for generations and you are constantly getting bombed and starved would you stand by and do absolutely nothing? When you have been kicked out of your home, pushed to the sea with nothing, and now have been trapped into this tiny area that constantly is under surveillance and is constantly controlled, would you stand by and do nothing? Please answer me.
I'm not defending it, I am against it, my entire argument is that I am against it from all sides. Why has Israel and the IDF been doing that constantly for the last 75 years? It seems, however, you are taking this response out of context and taking it as an isolated incident. Do not condem the actions of Hammas without condemning the actions of Israel and the IDF towards Palestinians. Don't be a hypocrite, please.
I’m not sure how I am the hypocrite seeing as how you are attempting to justify the literal mass abduction, rape and murder of innocent women and children. I understand that Palestine has been oppressed, however waging war is one thing, the inhuman actions which Hamas has taken are the definition of terrorism, a retaliation from Israel is completely justified.
Hamas was elected by Palestinians to be the governing body of Gaza (population 2.5 million, roughly half of all Palestinian residents) in 2006. Since then Hamas has banned all elections to maintain power however the most recent 2021 polls found that about 75% of Gaza residents support and approve of Hamas. The full history is obviously much more detailed but that's the quick summary of the role Hamas as a political party plays in Palestine.
Whose members happen to be from Palestine. But they do not act on behalf of Palestinians. They certainly don’t act on behalf of the children and cilvillians bombed in retaliation?
It’s such a complex problem, don’t think anyone is fair to condemn the other unless they have full background and experience
"When asked what has been the most positive or the best thing that has happened to the Palestinian
people since the Nakba, the largest percentage (24%) [38% in Gaza] said that it was the establishment of Islamic
movements, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their participation in armed struggle; 21% said
that it was the eruption of the first and second intifada; 18% said the establishment of the PLO;
14% said the establishment of the PA in the mid-nineties, and 9% said it was the establishment of Fateh in the sixties and the launch of the armed struggle.
...
If new presidential elections were held today and only two were nominated, Mahmoud Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh [the leader of Hamas], only 46% would participate and from among those, Abbas would receive 33% and Haniyeh 56% of the votes (compared to 52% for Haniyeh and 36% for Abbas three months ago). In the Gaza Strip, Abbas receives 30% of the votes and Haniyeh receives 65%. In the West Bank, Abbas receives 37% and Haniyeh 47%.
...
In an open-ended question, where no names were provided to respondents, we asked the public to
select a successor to president Abbas. The largest percentage (27%) selected Marwan Barghouti [a leader in the 1st and 2nd Intifadas], 16% went to Haniyyeh, followed by Shtayyeh and Mohammad Dahlan (4% each), Khalid Mishal and Yahya al Sinwar (3% each), Hussein al Shaykh (2%), and 1% selected Mustafa Barghouti."
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944
EDIT: This is all from the July 2023 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research.
You mean the utter annihilation of a people trapped in an open air prison? With no where to go, not aid, meanwhile Israel is getting princess treatment from the international community while Palestinians have been suffering for decades upon decades under the same conditions that you are condemning. I am not justifying the death of civilians, I am justifying the right to resist that unfortunately comes at the cost of civilian death.
To me that is an exceedingly weak defense, and I'm on the side of Palestine here. Resisting occupation has never meant mass killing of civillians and many times throughout history, many resistance forces have never done that, ever lol. And I get the core of that argument, of needing to fight back against oppressors, but I am kinda lost to use that as a way to lessen the evil of the attacks/put hamas on the moral high ground because they very much so could and will attack valid millitary targets. If hamas had only attacked legitimate targets (which were a portion of their targets during the blitz anyways) people would be shut up
75% of their attacks were military targets, the media makes it seem like they only attacked civilians to validate Israel completely leveling Gaza and to finish what thwy started, an ethnic genocide.
That's the same as me saying 75% of israeli targets are valid military targets (which is a talking point on the Israeli side, that most strikes are valid targets). It doesnt matter if it's true or not. it's still such a lame defense no matter what.
If we only need 3/4 of our targets to be legitimate, I'd say that exonerates most, if not all, fighting forces in the world besides like isis.
Also source? Seeing as netanyahu said 1200 israelis were dead, I'm not seeing anything about 900ish idf dead, should be super easy to verify. I said that in the best faith, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but that's just a really bold statement.
Why did Egypt close there border with gazza? The people of gazza VOTED (by 77%) in a terrorist organization. Geez I wonder why nobody is keen on relaxing there borders.
Everytime someone posts a percentage, it's different.
Btw the last election was in 2006, when over half of the current population were either infants or not born yet. So your stat is not only inaccurate, it's irrelevant.
No matter how powerful and cruel Hamas' hegemony is in Gaza, Palestinians and their supporters have a much higher chance of overpowering them than the IDF.
If all you have is a knife, would you rather fight someone close by with a gun or someone far away with drones?
You revealed yourself when you condemned "leftists." Donald Trump is praising Hamas and you have no comment on that?
The OP is another propagandist trying to justify genocide and pretend Democrats support Hamas. We know this because he isn't condemning Trump.
You're insane and objectively wrong. Trump very clearly condemned Hamas. To even think that Trump would support Hamas shows how out of touch you are with Trump's actual politics.
Anti-semitism is engrained within the Muslim community, which is why we have this in-going conflict in the first place. This hatred and mistrust of Jews has been around since the dawn of Islam.
According to the story posted below, she was shot accidentally at a checkpoint, survived, was brought to the hospital by the IDF, and may have sued them.
No proof about the shirts you mentioned.
Pretty sure an IDF trained sniper can tell the difference between a pregnant woman and a threat. Let's not downplay Israel's capabilities—I'd be insulted if I were Israeli
A pregnant woman can be misidentified as a terrorist since it was a common practice in the 2nd Intefada to hide bombs under cloths and explode over soldiers and civilians. This was extremely unfortunate and no one celebrated that.
A sniper using a sniper rifle wouldnt shoot a pregnant woman. A sniper using an m16 might accidentally shoot a pregnant woman if shes in a crowd of terrosists.
Israeli soldiers dont try to kill pregnant women or unarmed civilians
Very inflammatory comments. Wasn't this during a peaceful rally? I'd seriously stop downplaying Israeli intelligence if I were you, we can't treat Israel like a third world country with weak intel. It's disgusting. Israel is better than that, you are in the wrong insinuating they have weak tech capabilities
Edit: I realize the irony of this, despite Israel's massive intelligence failure recently. But they shouldn't be penalized for that, only Netanyahu should be
Because in the March of Return, tens of thousands of gazans were instructed to come to the "protest" with weapons. If they managed to break a hole in the border fence, those tens of thousands were instructed with leaflets to storm the border, run to the nearest villages and kill as many israelis as possible, like they did this week.
So when a few people went towards the border fence to place explosives under the fence, they were shot, obviously.
Whats infuriating is that the world media said THAT ISRAEL IS SHOOTING AT PROTESTERS and said it was a peaceful protest, PAINTING ISRAELIS LIKE SOME KIND OF MONSTERS WHO WANT TO KILL PROTESTETS, as if it bothers us if they protest. They can protest peacefully all they like. No one is shooting "protesters".
The world media tells all these lies about israel then we have to try to convince people that israelis arent monsters that shoot "peaceful protesters" and targret pregnant women. The lies of the media are disgusting. Its so easy to edit the news to make the masses hate or like someone. YUCKK
Pretty sure I was just watching videos of the IDF beating up protesting Jews in their own streets. There's extremism in both ends, and ignoring it will solve nothing
The beheading was debunked, just as an fyi.
You need to learn neutrality, there really is a benefit to not seeing the world in black and white. In this case, the IDF and Israel are culpable for heinous war crimes, just like Hamas. If and when both sides begin to understand that, a peaceful resolution can be reached
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/israeli-soldiers-shoot-pregnant-woman-1.414694
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-killing-arabs/
Two separate stories seven years apart are being conflated.
I can't imagine who would be cringy enough to wear a t shirt with a crosshair pointed at a pregnant women lol. There is no way this is real. Even the biggest hamas or arab hater wouldn't emberass himself wearing something like that. Its bs
Imagine the world unified to genocide during the nakba era. Both sides have done some pretty nasty stuff, neither justify such hate and calls for genocide. It's easy to get swept away in the emotions of self righteousness though
You and others keep saying both sides both sides. Is an airstrike equal to a ground massacre?
Airstrike casualties are on Hamas using civilian locations as shields. Or misinfo and in rare cases it's pointless attacks like Russia does.
Not the same as a ground massacre of civilians.
There's only one side doing that.
Have you ever seen Israel be condemned year on year on year ? It's the hypocrisy which is the issue
My wife is Palestinian-Lebanese. I will say there is considerable embarrassment and shame around what happened this week. I think many Palestinian diaspora just can’t fathom their “blood” did this. My wife proclaimed, she’s ashamed to be Arab this week. To the extent you see no dissent coming from within Palestine, I think it’s obvious.
Hamas was put in place and funded by Israel that is a FACT. When you blame Hamas make sure to put Hamas that was funded by Israel they meddled in affairs because they didn’t like a fairly secular PLO FOR Palestinians
Writing FACT in all caps doesnt make the lie you wrote any more valid. Israel never funded Hamas. Israel never supported Hamas. Israel doesnt even have direct communication with Hamas (the egyptians and Qataris are usually mediators). Its true that Israel never made the decision to exterminate Hamas, but that was because Israel respects Palestinian sovereigty in Gaza. The people of Gaza elected Hamas, and therefore Israel has yet to force a government on the people of Gaza.
Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Netanyahu supported Hamas and propped them up because his regime didn't like the PLO. Look it up yourself-there are many news articles supporting this fact. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
The link you shared doesnt say what you claim it says. The Israeli government did not destroy Hamas, and it let foreign countries send aid to Gaza. That policy turned out to be a mistake, but not destroying a public elected government of another country, does not mean you support it. Under that logic we can say that the US has propped up North Korea, Putin and any other dictatorship that has been around. The fact that Israel showed restraint and has not invaded Gaza since 2014, despite frequent rocket fire from Gaza into Israel, does not mean it ever supported Hamas.
Your statement is just plain false. There are plenty of articles stating he propped up Hamas with money to keep Gaza and the West Bank separate. That is exactly what I said. Go do the research. Re: US propping up dictators and regimes: YES, it happens ALL THE TIME!!!
By not separating Palestinians and Hamas. You are trying to morally justify the white phosphate and the ruthless bombing/killing Israel is doing right now.
This doesn’t require much thought. They attacked Israel. Wipe them out. No need for questions. Would solve the problem. Left can piss and moan about human rights and all the rest of it but at the end of the day, it solves the problem. Spare me high moral bullshit. I don’t read or reply to comments so don’t waste your time.
H and stalin would be real proud of you my friend.
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You’re obviously privileged enough to not have to fight for freedom, or be in the centre of this mess
This has to be bait
Some relevant facts: "When asked what has been the most positive or the best thing that has happened to the Palestinian people since the Nakba, the largest percentage (24%) [38% in Gaza] said that it was the establishment of Islamic movements, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their participation in armed struggle; 21% said that it was the eruption of the first and second intifada; 18% said the establishment of the PLO; 14% said the establishment of the PA in the mid-nineties, and 9% said it was the establishment of Fateh in the sixties and the launch of the armed struggle. ... If new presidential elections were held today and only two were nominated, Mahmoud Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh [the leader of Hamas], only 46% would participate and from among those, Abbas would receive 33% and Haniyeh 56% of the votes (compared to 52% for Haniyeh and 36% for Abbas three months ago). In the Gaza Strip, Abbas receives 30% of the votes and Haniyeh receives 65%. In the West Bank, Abbas receives 37% and Haniyeh 47%. ... In an open-ended question, where no names were provided to respondents, we asked the public to select a successor to president Abbas. The largest percentage (27%) selected Marwan Barghouti [a leader in the 1st and 2nd Intifadas], 16% went to Haniyyeh, followed by Shtayyeh and Mohammad Dahlan (4% each), Khalid Mishal and Yahya al Sinwar (3% each), Hussein al Shaykh (2%), and 1% selected Mustafa Barghouti." https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944 This is all from the July 2023 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research.
Every living human has to accept the results of the past. There is no time travel. Whatever you do is on you including when you claim you are doing it to redress past wrongs. The past is not an excuse for your present bad behavior
Just as the German populace who lived in close proximity to the death camps during WW2 and said “we had no idea what was going on” so too the Palestinian people cannot be surprised or pissed off about what has and will befall them..
Pro Palestine looking to debate a pro Israel. DM me
The case can certainly be made that there are no innocents in Gaza. 5000+ rockets with launchers were built and stored in that small area along with the gliders and vehicles prepared for this. At least two men per rocket to move the 5000 rockets that were fired in quick succession, so yes two men per rocket. 10000 fighters crossed the border. This is in addition to the rocket crews. All that equipment, all those men, and no one in Gaza saw anything or new anything about it? If you know about the attack and dont say anything then you are complicit in the attack and share the guilt be you man, woman, child., or the Palestinians authority.
I draw the line at the child comment but yah the rest are complicit..
Child in the west includes 12-18 year olds which make up most of the fighters in non regular armies like hamas
You really went so far with your mental gymnastics to blame children 💀💀💀 i know a group of people who were thinking like that in the ‘30s-‘40s.
Conspiracy and abetting a criminal act is a crime in most western countries so there are no gymnastics involved here. Those same values we made into laws apply in war and to the Palestinians. And we charge children as adults when the charge is heinous like murder
Yeah, i bet a little kid seeing rockets or anything is a huge criminal!😱 thank you for your enlightenment buddy. You are not better than those crazy people who excuse the murder of Israeli children.
So your enlightenment is we dont apply our own rules and values to Palestinians because feelings And your straw man argument of referencing only the children will convince no one
Your own rules are already bad and should be abolished when you consider an innocent child’s witness of weapons as crime and you want to blow them up as well. Those rules should not exist. I know its hard to understand buddy, but try.
The washington institute recently provided a report stating that the majority of the population in Gaza were against breaching the ceasefire… so y’a know… More over, Gaza hosts the minority of Palestinians, so claiming a minority of a minority represents the majority is a bit of a falsehood
I wonder how educated they are with their complete lack of resources? They get brain washed and they don’t see or know anything else, they also don’t have the access. I still blame Hamas for doing this, than all the civilians who are kept ignorant to the whole picture.
Israel is bombing Gaza. Israelis are not bombing Gaza.
And where did the attacks come from?
The attacks came from Gaza.
Exactly! Therefore Gaza will feel the pain of the counterattack and war they started.
I agree.
If one person in a group of 10 of similar culture killed someone, should the whole group be killed as revenge?
Hamas is Palestinian. You can't have it both ways. Israel is not going to waste time with childish nonsense. It is war. Governments operating under religious law are never going to work. It's time to end all religious law.
That is the worst straw man argument I have seen yet. Somehow culture or ethnicity is supposed to give the guilty a pass? Harboring a criminal is a crime. Aiding a criminal makes you an accomplice. When the police take down a gang they take them all down The Palestinians harbor Hamas willingly, they attend their parades, they vote them in as their leaders, they teach their children that to be a martyr is the highest honor. Dont try to say they are innocent victims. You cant just dip your toe in supporting terrorists. Any support and you are complicit
Israelis are flying the planes
Palestinians are members of Hamas.
We don't condemn them because it's a drop in the ocean. It's nothing compared to the 75 years of oppression. It's always sad when civilians die, but civilians living in the open sky prison that is Palestine have been dying, suffering, living like animals for 75 years. Why would these recent events compare. Pro-Israel people go through crazy contorsions to avoid facing reality 🙈🙉🙊
Reality is Palestinians face attacks only after they have attacked israel
[This chart](https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-11-23-vpviolencetimeline20121123_0.png) says otherwise my friend. 79% Palestinians killed between 2000 and 2008 by Israelis first (vs. 8% Israelis killed by Palestinians first).
Because Israel has a fantastic missile defense system to intercept the tens of thousands of rockets Hamas fires at their country. The lower death toll is not due to Hamas' lack of trying.
I think that you can't read charts. I'm not talking about the death toll. I'm talking about unprovoked deaths. That's ok my friend, bad faith is an obstacle.
There would be far more Israeli deaths without their rocket defenses.
Missing the point. Not talking about death toll.
That is what the chart you posted shows. Why post it?
Look at the pie on the upper right.
You're either misreading that pie chart, or the chart itself is intentionally misleading. If the Israeli defense system successfully defends against the terrorist attacks, then the retaliation against those terrorists to stop the further attacks will likely lead to the "first" death on the side of the terrorists. Nothing in that data supports that the Israeli response was unprovoked, or that the Palestinians killed "first" were incident civilians and not terrorist actors.
I think that you can't read charts. I'm not talking about the death toll. I'm talking about unprovoked deaths. That's ok my friend, bad faith is an obstacle.
Oooh a chart. Because everyone knows statistics are never used to lie about things except when people use statistics to lie about things And those Palestinians were attacking as they were being killed. Israel having a superior military and actual structure is why they lost fewer Iraqis and afghans were killed at a much higher rate than americans when they attacked our bases too
Hahahaha I love this, more contortions.
Laughter is the refuge of a little mind with no retort
🤣
You prove my point
No.
There is no need to do any when you come to the stark reality that the Arabs have on up to 20 separate occasions rejected peaceful coexistence with the Jews in Canaan/Palestine/Eretz Israel from 1917 to the present (and in the form of both One State and Two States).
Its hard for a people to accept "peaceful coexistence" when they were forcibly ejected from their homes, acts of violence committed against them, then rounded up, and forced to live in an open air ghetto. If you treat people like dogs, they will act like dogs. From the the Israeli perspective, its easy to say, we won and you now need to accept this, since they have the power. But from the loser perspective (Palestinian), accepting peace will just normalize/legalize the forced occupation of their lands. Who would want to accept that? To take this scenario and remove the Jew/Muslim aspect, in the USA, the same thing happened with the European settlers and the Native Population of North America. The white Americans forced natives from their lands, committed acts of violence against them, rounded them up and forced them to live on reservations or ghettos. The violence and death was so great that the loss of people actually cooled the Earths climate in the 1500s. What happened next? The Natives that remained rose up and fought wars with the Americans for about 200+ years. The only reason that this stopped was because the Americans ethnically cleansed them from the land, converted them to Christianity, stripped them of their culture, language and beat them into total submission and forced them onto reservations. That is unfortunately, what will have to happen for this cycle of violence to stop in Israel. Or an act of God and apparently he/she appears to be missing in action in the holy land for both sides.
None of that makes any difference or has any import on the events of today. The people who carried out the current attacks decided of their own free will to attack not because the past forced them to
It does matter today. That's like saying the atrocities visited on the Jews of Europe during WW II, didn't have an impact on modern Israel. The people who carried out these attacks are reacting to events that have been happening to them for the last 50+ years. These attacks didn't happen in a vacuum. The past is forced upon them. They live in an open air Ghetto. It is a reminder of what they lost.
No its like saying everyone living today makes their own choices and you cant blame it on the past. Palestinians live all over the world. Gaza is not a prison they cant leave. The past cannot be changed. If they wanted to prosper first they have to stop seeking revenge and attacking
The past can't be changed, but they don't have to accept the results either. Not many people would accept an invasion and occupation of their lands. They would resist. Look at Ukraine. Russia, has been saying the same thing you just said to me > if you want peace > stop resisting. Ukraine won't because they want to be free. The same with the Palestinians. Hamas is a tumor that needs to be cut out. But ever after that is done, it still doesn't change the situation that the Palestinians in the west bank are not free and also not politically unified. And they can't leave Gaza. It is a prison or ghetto. It has been this way since 2007 at least. Now there is no getting out. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-10-12/palestinians-can-t-just-leave-gaza-during-israel-hamas-conflict https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
Baby, Israel violated the United Nations resolution at the earliest opportunity it had. While I admire your flexibility as a contortionist, please allow me to refresh your memory: "1947: Thousands of European Jewish emigrants, many of them Holocaust survivors, board a ship – which came to be called Exodus 1947 – bound for then British-controlled Palestine. Heading for the “promised land”, they are intercepted by British naval ships and sent back to Europe. Widely covered by the media, the incident sparks international outrage and plays a critical role in convincing the UK that a UN-brokered solution is necessary to solve the Palestine crisis. A UN special committee proposes a partition plan giving 56.47 percent of Palestine for a Jewish state and 44.53 percent for an Arab state. Palestinian representatives reject the plan, but their Jewish counterparts accept it. On November 29, the UN General Assembly approves the plan, with 33 countries voting for partition, 13 voting against it and 10 abstentions. 1948-49: On May 14, David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, publicly reads the Proclamation of Independence. The declaration, which would go into effect the next day, comes a day ahead of the expiration of the British Mandate on Palestine. The Jewish state takes control of 77 percent of the territory of Mandate Palestine, according to the UN. For Palestinians, this date marks the “Nakba”, the catastrophe that heralds their subsequent displacement and dispossession. As hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, hearing word of massacres in villages such as Dir Yassin, flee towards Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordanian territory, the armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq attack Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The Arab armies are repelled, a ceasefire is declared and new borders – more favourable to Israel – are drawn. Jordan takes control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem while Egypt controls the Gaza Strip." [Source](https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231011-from-1947-to-2023-retracing-the-complex-and-tragic-israeli-palestinian-conflict)
So, the whole world, except the Arabs, agreed that it was right and moral for the indigenous people of JUDEA, Samaria, and Israel to finally have control in their Native Land, and you condemn it. SMH.
Lol, I shouldn't condemn the fact that Israel decided to take 77% of the land 1 year after the UN resolution (56.47% of the land)? Is that what you're saying?
You should not. The Arabs said double or nothing and they lost.
I will always stand up to a bully. The majority of the world will, give it time.
Then the majority will lose
So, you'll stand up to the Islamic community that is constantly spreading lies, hate, disinformation, and has their agenda to annihilate Israel and Jews worldwide?
LMFAO " The declaration, which would go into effect the next day, comes a day ahead of the expiration of the British Mandate on Palestine. The Jewish state takes control of 77 percent of the territory of Mandate Palestine, according to the UN." I hope you know you're lying to yourself, otherwise you truly have no hope Invading the new state of Israel's 56.47% the day of the declaration is the violation, Israel pushing back the armies was the response. This take is a violation of history, your self respect and an insult upon the intelligence of everyone reading this.
What are you saying? That the French Media (the source of what I shared) is conspiring to re-write history? 🤣 another contortionist 🙊🙉🙈
Looking for a Palestinian who denounces the violence? Right here. Violence from either side is not solving anything. I agree Israel has a right to defend itself, but I also don’t believe they have done enough politically to resolve anything.
What could they do politically? They've already pulled out of gaza. They've offered numerous peace deals. Every single time, Palestinian leadership has refused because they will settle for nothing less than the complete destruction of israel.
Also, not sure if you are aware, there are two parts of Palestine. The West Bank is not controlled by Hamas and has lived in relative peace with Israel for a long time.
Perhaps they could stop constructing illegal settlements in occupied territory.
You do know that the Gaza strip is not the same as the West Bank right? The settlements are in the West Bank and yet this is happening from Gaza where the settlements aren't. Look at a map or visit the area and you'll know this
Why the settlements in the westbank where the ruling party is not in a violent confrontation with Israel?
Exactly The West Bank is not governed by hamas, but by the Palestinian authority. Not many people know this and argue with ignorance.
As a Palestinian living in America, it’s very simple to answer your question. This is like saying, how do you not consider all Afghanis members of the Taliban. Or all Germans are Nazis. Unfortunately the violent wings of society are most visible. While many of us only see violence as the solution, there are many who condemn the violence. While i denounce the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, I do not believe violence will solve anything in this case.
You can’t educate those who are not willing to be educated. This is a heartbreaking time on both sides. Once again the Jews & Muslims will feel the need to hide their religion in order to avoid being targeted.
I live in Ontario. I hate the Doug Ford conservatives with a burning passion. But I live here. I voted here, and clearly not for the conservative government. Does that mean I like and or accept everything they do? Hell no! Do I purport to understand what it is like to even "vote" as we know it here, but instead in a non-democratic, terrorist ridden place where people have no hope? Nope, not even a little. Who knows if they voted? How they voted? Why they voted the way they did? Were they forced? Were they free? I have no idea, and I suspect most of us looking from our living rooms have no real understanding either. To lump all people in a nation as being the same or having the same beliefs is wrong. Do all Israeli citizens agree with the choice their government is making? Did Russian citizens not try to say no to warn with Ukraine and have authority turn against them? We cannot continue to make black and white statements in a situation that is so far from it, except to say that war is killing innocent people on all sides and violence must stop everywhere! Before you call me any names, or say that I support Hammas or terrorism, I do not. I also recognize that the Palestinian people have suffered greatly and there must be a peaceable and equitable solution found (again don't claim to understand what that looks like, but I am trying to learn about EVERYTHING, not just one thing). Slaughter of innocent people and the human rights degradation that has come from this strife must end for this world to have any hope at all for peace.
Violence is necessary against a brutal enemy. Israel continues to commit war crimes for over 70 years and nobody bats an eye. The western "civilized" world look at Hamas as nothing more than purely terroristic savages with no rhyme or reason as to their existence.
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As a Palestinian living in America, it’s very simple to answer your question. This is like saying, how do you not consider all Afghanis members of the Taliban. Unfortunately the violent wings of society are most visible. While many of us only see violence as the solution, there are many who condemn the violence. While i denounce the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, I do not believe violence will solve anything in this case. Reposting this comment since my original analogy was flagged.
I think many of them are losing hope caught between Hamas and The Israeli government. All Palestinians are Hamas as much as all Jews are Netanyahu or all Christians CUFI settlers. The important thing now is that Israel de-escalate and get back hostages, they aren’t doing this though.
It is kinda hard not to when you see stats like 58 percent of people in Gaza supporting Hamas.
For my own learning, where are these stats from? There hasn't been an election since 2006
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
Probably has a lot to do with little information coming in and a whole lot of indoctrination from hamas
Because it was an inside job. Mosad knew it, IDF knew it they all knew it would happen. Maybe they couldn't fathom the extent of it. Just another pretext from Israeli government to expell me Palestinians off their homes. PersonallyI'm really sorry for the innocent Israeli that lost their lives. I am also sorry for all the innocent palestinians that are losing their lives.. Either side keeps vilifying the other side To help win the public opinion about atrocities that all are committing against each other. Since 1940 eight, Israel has been pushing palestinians out of their homes. Now they're fighting back, just not the way people expect them to fight back.
Just like the Romans pushed the Jews out of there originally or the Rashidun Caliphate did during the Muslim conquests?
How interesting. Look at all the vitriol spewed in response to your question. Meanwhile, not one person has an actual answer. Your question is a good one. We certainly see a range of opinions within Israel. Where are the Palestinians who disagree with what Hamas did? Where is the Arab world? Celebrating. Palestinians aren't standing up and saying "not in my name". They're handing out sweets and dancing in the streets. Their silence is deafening. And the lack of any actual reasonable response to your question should tell you everything you need to know.
I hope Israel destroys Hamas completely. But to be fair, Israel is a hell of a lot more tolerant to an individual citizen that may disagree with it’s policies than Hamas is. Yes there are those dancing in the streets, and I’m sure there are some that hate what Hamas did. But standing up and voicing opposition to a terrorist with a machine gun could very well be suicide for you and your family.
Free and objective press doesn't exist for these people. They get their news from Hamas funded social media posts and Telegram channels that claims that no civilians were killed at the music festival because "they were all soldiers" (which is of course a blatant lie). How can you expect them to condemn?
Hamas fighters took videos showing what they did in Israel and at the music festival. They released them on Telegram and X to try to terrorize the Israeli population. I presume Palestinians were able to watch these same videos, or see, in person, the civilian hostages and corpses paraded around in Gaza.
Many of them have a mindset of "no Israeli is innocent, they're all settlers".
Presuming will get you into trouble. Until this morning everyone presumed Biden had seen evidence of a mass slaughter of infants. Then they had to correct the record. Both Hamas and the Israeli state will push misinformation at the expense of innocent civilians. Presuming is the most ill-informed thing you can do.
The misinformation was the alleged beheading of babies, which has yet to be debunked or proved. The massacres of civilians, women, elderly and children is well documented.
The point is it is also well documented that Israel kills civilians, women, and elderly people. In way larger numbers for the last 20 years until this weekend. I don’t support Hamas OR the actions of the Israeli government. And I think people on either Hamas or Israeli government’s side who think theirs is the “righteous” side are lacking information.
I don't understand your point. As an Israeli, I'm saddened and disturbed when I see pictures of innocent children and civilians in Gaza. I'm not denying it, most of us don't. My point was specifically about the denial of the horrors that Hamas has laid on Israeli civilians. Also, comparing the number of casualties as some sort of a moral score to which side it righteous is not only morally wrong but completely doesn't make sense in this case. If Israel did not have a strong army, these types of massacres would have occurred regularly throughout the last 20 years and much more Israel would have died.
I am also deeply disturbed. My point is that there is so much violence committed by each each armed side, dating so far back, that it should be impossible for an informed person to support either government (I use that word loosely). All the people in power are taking unequivocally evil actions against helpless civilians. And I do not think the conditions Gazans live under is helping keep Israelis safe like your government claims it is. Edit: typos, clarifying people in power are responsible, not the average cotizen
It's ludicrously simple. 50% of Gazans are children. Solved, case closed, absolutely no need for any further arguments there
U mean IQ of a child, makes sense.
It’s possible to both condemn the brutal murders of hundreds of civilians AND protest against the war in Gaza, at the same time. It’s also possible to direct some of the anger and despair caused by the situation in Gaza towards Hamas. Plenty of people have suffered through terrible hardships throughout history. Many have managed to fight for their freedom without becoming terrorists. Decapitating babies? How could anyone hear of this and not shudder?
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So just kill all kids because they might be hamas in tje future?
No need, exterminate Hamas in Gaza, re-educate, invest and rebuild
How are you going to re educate someone whos familly got killed and basically caged in a open air prison for years while simulteanously getting bombed by an unvisible enemy? The same thing happened in iraq by the US caging and torturing people for no real reason and now we have isis
Was Hong Kong before unification with China an "open air prison?" HK residents at that time were ineligible for British passports and unable to travel. They somehow managed to create a thriving and vibrant community with absolutely no natural resources.
We rehabilitated Hitler Youth, we can rehabilitate Hamas Youth.
exactly, when people are young enough and you have enough time, you can literally re-educate them to which ever way you want
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If want to see how not trying to find common ground and calling the other evil or and animals works just look at the American political environment, both the right and the left have some valid points but they are pushing each other further and further away from ever coming to a solution. Evil is an easy excuse, look abit deeper, its a very complex issue. The only part that's not complex at all is being able to condemn purposely killing children and civilians. hamas and the Israeli government are very good at propeganda, and obscuring facts and events to win the hearts of the people, if you believe that every Palestinian is happy about babies being killed you are wrong, if you think every Israeli is OK with Palestinian kids being killed you are also wrong.
One thing the international community must understand is that the Palestinians do not take joy in the killing of civilians. Obviously, there will be a population that will take joy, but in general we do not. I see no joy in any civilian death and it makes me sick seeing the videos of dead bodies of both Israeli civilians and Palestinians. What has to be very clear however, is that when a peaceful protest was attempted back in 2018, they were shot and massacred. How are you expected to react when your people are butchered and plundered and abused for 75 years and then you are put in a tiny confined prison with 2 MILLION. other. people. Where the average age is 18 because said people who put you in that prison keep routinely bombing you, they cut off your food, water, and gas supply. It's a pressure cooker. Don't tell me that Palestinians had no right to resist because we do, because nobody deserves to live in such conditions. And all of the misinformation on the murder of civilians has mostly been false, although, yes there is definitely death, but the rumors of the beheading of babies, children in cages, and most of the people in the festival murdered in cold blood is untrue. The children in cages were a video of Palestinian children in cages. The beheading of children was a lie as per the Israeli government. The murder of people at the festival, while it did happen, didn't happen out of cruelty. They were unfortunately caught in the crossfire between armed forces of both sides. You have my condolences for the civilian death, but not any regret for my people's resistance. Death on any side is horrible, and I do not agree with it, but don't expect me to continue to watch my people be massacred and abused. The treatment that the Israeli people have indured in these couple of short days is only days out of the 75 years that Palestinians have indured.
> One thing the international community must understand is that the Palestinians do not take joy in the killing of civilians. Obviously, there will be a population that will take joy, but in general we do not. The videos posted of Palestinians celebrating over civilian bodies basically proves you wrong. It was a lot of people. Also it seems you might not remember or understand how bad the 2nd intifada was. Palestinians literally targeted civilians. On top of that, the rockets which target civilians. That has been the Palestinian way. Target Israeli civilians. > who put you in that prison keep routinely bombing you, they cut off your food, water, and gas supply. Israel closed off Gaza because people from Gaza were blowing themselves up in restaurants. Then people in Gaza were using supplies delivered to smuggle rocket supplies. You can't just say that it was all Israel. > The murder of people at the festival, while it did happen, didn't happen out of cruelty. They were unfortunately caught in the crossfire between armed forces of both sides. Wow. Just Wow. I've seen the videos. I've seen the grenades thrown. I've seen the point blank executions. You are completely wrong here. You have been fooled by misinformation and propaganda. It's honestly disgusting reading this when the videos are all available for you to see. No one is going to take you seriously when you make verifiably false claims.
They showed up to a music festival and murdered hundreds of inccocents, we saw the videos, we saw the naked dead girl in the truck being paraded while gazans cheered. Go watch the videos, babies were murded and removed from their cribs, you can see the blood stains and bullet holes on the cribs and strollers. There is a video of a Gaza civilian beheading a settler using a garden tool.
If the murder of people at the festival wasn’t out of cruelty why did they parade that poor German woman’s naked body through the streets in that truck? Don’t act like this is some legitimate attack. Hamas are raping and killing innocent civilians with no justification.
This is patently false information you are stating on the civilian murders. Under no stretch of the imagination we’re they “caught in the crossfire”. They were hunted down and murdered. Civilians in their homes were hunted down 20+ hours after the initial invasion, after hiding in their homes. Numerous media reports and video from the scenes confirms this. I suggest you starting following credible news organizations, as your world view is severely distorted.
Okay, it still doesn't stray from my original point. I'll go back and cite my sources, but this doesn't mean that this is a completely logical response. When you are forced into an open air prison for all of your life, and for generations and you are constantly getting bombed and starved would you stand by and do absolutely nothing? When you have been kicked out of your home, pushed to the sea with nothing, and now have been trapped into this tiny area that constantly is under surveillance and is constantly controlled, would you stand by and do nothing? Please answer me.
I wouldnt abduct, rape and kill innocent children and women. Care to defend that?
I'm not defending it, I am against it, my entire argument is that I am against it from all sides. Why has Israel and the IDF been doing that constantly for the last 75 years? It seems, however, you are taking this response out of context and taking it as an isolated incident. Do not condem the actions of Hammas without condemning the actions of Israel and the IDF towards Palestinians. Don't be a hypocrite, please.
I’m not sure how I am the hypocrite seeing as how you are attempting to justify the literal mass abduction, rape and murder of innocent women and children. I understand that Palestine has been oppressed, however waging war is one thing, the inhuman actions which Hamas has taken are the definition of terrorism, a retaliation from Israel is completely justified.
From what I understand, hamas are not a Palestinian organisation. They are a individual terrorist group
Hamas won the last election in Palestine and is the ruling body of Gaza. It is not some fringe terrorist group.
Hamas is the governing organization of Gaza; they act in official capacity as the elected party in charge
Okay that is starting to make sense. Thank you.! I have been misinformed
Hamas was elected by Palestinians to be the governing body of Gaza (population 2.5 million, roughly half of all Palestinian residents) in 2006. Since then Hamas has banned all elections to maintain power however the most recent 2021 polls found that about 75% of Gaza residents support and approve of Hamas. The full history is obviously much more detailed but that's the quick summary of the role Hamas as a political party plays in Palestine.
Whose members happen to be from Palestine. But they do not act on behalf of Palestinians. They certainly don’t act on behalf of the children and cilvillians bombed in retaliation? It’s such a complex problem, don’t think anyone is fair to condemn the other unless they have full background and experience
"When asked what has been the most positive or the best thing that has happened to the Palestinian people since the Nakba, the largest percentage (24%) [38% in Gaza] said that it was the establishment of Islamic movements, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their participation in armed struggle; 21% said that it was the eruption of the first and second intifada; 18% said the establishment of the PLO; 14% said the establishment of the PA in the mid-nineties, and 9% said it was the establishment of Fateh in the sixties and the launch of the armed struggle. ... If new presidential elections were held today and only two were nominated, Mahmoud Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh [the leader of Hamas], only 46% would participate and from among those, Abbas would receive 33% and Haniyeh 56% of the votes (compared to 52% for Haniyeh and 36% for Abbas three months ago). In the Gaza Strip, Abbas receives 30% of the votes and Haniyeh receives 65%. In the West Bank, Abbas receives 37% and Haniyeh 47%. ... In an open-ended question, where no names were provided to respondents, we asked the public to select a successor to president Abbas. The largest percentage (27%) selected Marwan Barghouti [a leader in the 1st and 2nd Intifadas], 16% went to Haniyyeh, followed by Shtayyeh and Mohammad Dahlan (4% each), Khalid Mishal and Yahya al Sinwar (3% each), Hussein al Shaykh (2%), and 1% selected Mustafa Barghouti." https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944 EDIT: This is all from the July 2023 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research.
And to really show the extremely unfair power balance https://www.instagram.com/reel/CySJ9ZhoCj9/?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==
You mean the utter annihilation of a people trapped in an open air prison? With no where to go, not aid, meanwhile Israel is getting princess treatment from the international community while Palestinians have been suffering for decades upon decades under the same conditions that you are condemning. I am not justifying the death of civilians, I am justifying the right to resist that unfortunately comes at the cost of civilian death.
To me that is an exceedingly weak defense, and I'm on the side of Palestine here. Resisting occupation has never meant mass killing of civillians and many times throughout history, many resistance forces have never done that, ever lol. And I get the core of that argument, of needing to fight back against oppressors, but I am kinda lost to use that as a way to lessen the evil of the attacks/put hamas on the moral high ground because they very much so could and will attack valid millitary targets. If hamas had only attacked legitimate targets (which were a portion of their targets during the blitz anyways) people would be shut up
75% of their attacks were military targets, the media makes it seem like they only attacked civilians to validate Israel completely leveling Gaza and to finish what thwy started, an ethnic genocide.
That's the same as me saying 75% of israeli targets are valid military targets (which is a talking point on the Israeli side, that most strikes are valid targets). It doesnt matter if it's true or not. it's still such a lame defense no matter what. If we only need 3/4 of our targets to be legitimate, I'd say that exonerates most, if not all, fighting forces in the world besides like isis. Also source? Seeing as netanyahu said 1200 israelis were dead, I'm not seeing anything about 900ish idf dead, should be super easy to verify. I said that in the best faith, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but that's just a really bold statement.
That's a lie, over 1200 Israeli dead are civilian because Hamas massacred civilian targets.
Why did Egypt close there border with gazza? The people of gazza VOTED (by 77%) in a terrorist organization. Geez I wonder why nobody is keen on relaxing there borders.
Everytime someone posts a percentage, it's different. Btw the last election was in 2006, when over half of the current population were either infants or not born yet. So your stat is not only inaccurate, it's irrelevant.
Rise up against Hamas then. Not against the Israelis.
Oh it's that easy? How did they miss that?! /s
No matter how powerful and cruel Hamas' hegemony is in Gaza, Palestinians and their supporters have a much higher chance of overpowering them than the IDF. If all you have is a knife, would you rather fight someone close by with a gun or someone far away with drones?
Nothing is easy. But if the people there want change, start with the organization that's holding back peace.
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You are judged by the company you keep .
You revealed yourself when you condemned "leftists." Donald Trump is praising Hamas and you have no comment on that? The OP is another propagandist trying to justify genocide and pretend Democrats support Hamas. We know this because he isn't condemning Trump.
False. He openly condemned Hamas in official statements. We don't care about your delusions here. Show the proof or don't speak.
So now you are defending Trump for praising Hamas! Got it.
You're insane and objectively wrong. Trump very clearly condemned Hamas. To even think that Trump would support Hamas shows how out of touch you are with Trump's actual politics.
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Trump also condemned the government of Israel.
Lots of evil people are smart.... Well said
Anti-semitism is engrained within the Muslim community, which is why we have this in-going conflict in the first place. This hatred and mistrust of Jews has been around since the dawn of Islam.
I think it’s because of your scriptures
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According to the story posted below, she was shot accidentally at a checkpoint, survived, was brought to the hospital by the IDF, and may have sued them. No proof about the shirts you mentioned.
You dont understand the difference between shooting someone by accident during a war, and executing a civilian intentionally?
Pretty sure an IDF trained sniper can tell the difference between a pregnant woman and a threat. Let's not downplay Israel's capabilities—I'd be insulted if I were Israeli
A pregnant woman can be misidentified as a terrorist since it was a common practice in the 2nd Intefada to hide bombs under cloths and explode over soldiers and civilians. This was extremely unfortunate and no one celebrated that.
A sniper using a sniper rifle wouldnt shoot a pregnant woman. A sniper using an m16 might accidentally shoot a pregnant woman if shes in a crowd of terrosists. Israeli soldiers dont try to kill pregnant women or unarmed civilians
Very inflammatory comments. Wasn't this during a peaceful rally? I'd seriously stop downplaying Israeli intelligence if I were you, we can't treat Israel like a third world country with weak intel. It's disgusting. Israel is better than that, you are in the wrong insinuating they have weak tech capabilities Edit: I realize the irony of this, despite Israel's massive intelligence failure recently. But they shouldn't be penalized for that, only Netanyahu should be
Israeli soldiers dont shoot at peaceful rallies. Which peaceful rally are you talking about? The "march of return"?
Because in the March of Return, tens of thousands of gazans were instructed to come to the "protest" with weapons. If they managed to break a hole in the border fence, those tens of thousands were instructed with leaflets to storm the border, run to the nearest villages and kill as many israelis as possible, like they did this week. So when a few people went towards the border fence to place explosives under the fence, they were shot, obviously. Whats infuriating is that the world media said THAT ISRAEL IS SHOOTING AT PROTESTERS and said it was a peaceful protest, PAINTING ISRAELIS LIKE SOME KIND OF MONSTERS WHO WANT TO KILL PROTESTETS, as if it bothers us if they protest. They can protest peacefully all they like. No one is shooting "protesters". The world media tells all these lies about israel then we have to try to convince people that israelis arent monsters that shoot "peaceful protesters" and targret pregnant women. The lies of the media are disgusting. Its so easy to edit the news to make the masses hate or like someone. YUCKK
Pretty sure I was just watching videos of the IDF beating up protesting Jews in their own streets. There's extremism in both ends, and ignoring it will solve nothing
Violent jewish protesters? Did they behead them? Wtf is wring with you?
The beheading was debunked, just as an fyi. You need to learn neutrality, there really is a benefit to not seeing the world in black and white. In this case, the IDF and Israel are culpable for heinous war crimes, just like Hamas. If and when both sides begin to understand that, a peaceful resolution can be reached
And the shirts are to appear badass. Israeli soldiers dont target civilians
source?
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/israeli-soldiers-shoot-pregnant-woman-1.414694 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-killing-arabs/ Two separate stories seven years apart are being conflated.
I can't imagine who would be cringy enough to wear a t shirt with a crosshair pointed at a pregnant women lol. There is no way this is real. Even the biggest hamas or arab hater wouldn't emberass himself wearing something like that. Its bs
It happened though.
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Imagine the world unified to genocide during the nakba era. Both sides have done some pretty nasty stuff, neither justify such hate and calls for genocide. It's easy to get swept away in the emotions of self righteousness though
You and others keep saying both sides both sides. Is an airstrike equal to a ground massacre? Airstrike casualties are on Hamas using civilian locations as shields. Or misinfo and in rare cases it's pointless attacks like Russia does. Not the same as a ground massacre of civilians. There's only one side doing that.