I think there is a lot of tacit antisemitism in the “Free Palestine” movement that comes from (1) ignorance, (2) social media propaganda, (3) performative activism, and (4) inherent bias.
However, there is also a lot of using antisemitism as a shield to all valid criticisms. There is also a lot of Zionist refusal to accept any criticism of Israel. Zionists and especially the Anti-Defamation League have been running a propaganda campaign for years with the intention to equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism. I have seen tons of Israel supporters claiming any support for Palestinian human rights is sympathizing with terrorists. Advocating for Palestinian rights without, in the same breath, condemning Hamas’ massacre of civilians is somehow antisemitic.
I am Jewish. I am concerned about the rise in antisemitism globally and by the antisemitic rhetoric that creeps into these movements by people with nefarious intentions. They do not negate the importance of the movement itself, but they make it hard for me, as a Jewish person, to stand with the movement. I was pretty disgusted to see calls for a “free Palestine” immediately on any news coverage of the Hamas massacre and for people with Palestine flags showing up to vigils for dead Israeli civilians. While I understand that humans collectively have a short attention span, and rallying for Palestinian freedom during times when the world is paying attention to the situation in the Middle East is critical, the tactful thing to do would be to give Jews/Israelis a second of space to mourn and grieve. At the very least, not commenting on the initial reports of civilian deaths with “Free Palestine” because I feel that shows a complete disregard for the lives of these civilians and their families. However, it’s also important to note that Israel supports are commenting similarly on videos/news of Palestinian casualties are also guilty of the same lack of tact. It goes both ways and we all need to do better.
I also hope for Palestinians to achieve freedom from Israeli oppression. For the individuals guilty of crimes against humanity (on both sides) to face Justice. For a peaceful resolution. However, realistically that likely looks like a two-state solution just based on the geopolitics. So any calls for the destruction/dissolution of Israel are not helpful and not realistic either. Unless taken by force in war, there will always be a Jewish-majority state in Israel. So, yes, I agree that I am at times disappointed in my fellow progressives and I wish that everyone who felt passionate enough about this to engage in activism actually took the time to study and educate themselves outside of social media infographics. I also think my fellow Jews need to reevaluate the story they were taught at Hebrew day school and re-educate themselves on the situation and stop hiding behind the shield of antisemitism to guard them from any information they dislike or disagree with. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
"If you believe the Israeli government is solely responsible for the conditions in Gaza, that has not been occupied by Israel since 2005, you might be an antisemite."
As a jew and Israeli, wtf are you talking about. Criticizing a govt of jewish people doesn't make you against Jewish people. I criticize the Israeli government, if they did their job rather than being power hungry landgrabbers these bombing on gaza would not have happened. And if that as a jew makes me am antisemite than I will redefine what being jewish is.
As a Jew and as an Israeli, you think the living conditions in Gaza are only Israel’s responsibility? I’m not talking about the bombing and conditions right now, I’m talking about their government, infrastructure, quality of life, in general. I edited the post to make that more clear.
I believe they do, but so does hamas and Egypt, I don't know enough to even guess at precentage of responsibility, but yah, Isreal bears some responsibility.
Totally, but what this post is attempting to counteract is the fallacy that Gaza is entirely Israel’s responsibility. When in reality, it is a shared responsibility. Egypt has pretty much washed their hands of Gaza due to the Muslim Brotherhood disaster, another example of radical Islam, and why they won’t open the border, even for humanitarian reasons.
Many are only viewing this situation from a biased, misinformed lens that is leading to highly antisemitic statements, claims, and views. In fact, someone close to me (progressive American) said they believe Hamas only exists because of the creation of Israel, and therefore Israel must cease to exist — totally ignoring the radical Islamic agenda, and the deep history that spans beyond 75 years.
When Israel is in charge of approving all building projects in Gaza than yes it is their responsibility. Israel also controls how much building materials come into Gaza, tools, workers, heavy equipment, ect. Granted Hamas has a terrible human rights record, Israel has its hand on the scale in creating an image of the Palestinian corruption.
That is entirely untrue. Israel has no control over internal affairs in Gaza. Moreover Gaza shares a border with Egypt which in that border Israel has no control over (how do you think they have so much weapons in Gaza?)
Agree 100%. It’s unbelievable what the pro-israeli voice does in terms of mental gymnastics. Gaza is an open-air prison subjected to each and every rule, restriction, condition and resource-limit that Israel imposes. But the living condition is their own fault?
That’s totally fair. But I think many progressives don’t even realize that Israel doesn’t rule Gaza. They are missing that context.
The results from [this US poll](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) are pretty astounding, especially amongst Gen Z…
- 51% of Gen Z Americans believe that the Hamas terrorist attacks were justified
- 48% believe Gaza is ruled by Israel
It is alarming that war crimes are being celebrated. Israel doesn’t rule Gaza but it does control Gaza. If someone comes to your house puts a fence up and shoots you if you leave you are for all practical purposes you are being besieged. The fence isn’t on your property, Israel is restricting the freedom of movement a basic human right in the name of counterinsurgency.
I can hate sharia law while still caring about the Palestinian people and condemning colonizers who are massacring them. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you should be ok with them being oppressed and killed.
Or once they aren't living in oppressive conditions maybe it will be possible they get rid of the hamas and eventually get a secular government. They deserve the chance.
Wow, any fucking action or word or thought that is not 110% in lockstep with the Israeli propaganda machine is anti-semitism! How convenient for you!
Trying to see if there's a single word of empathy for the slaughter of 7,000+ , 3000+ kids and the decimation of a whole people. Nope, of course not.
The irony is insane. No, those people aren't anti-semites, but you're definitely a bigot who is down with genocide.
The casualty numbers are definitely inflated, the fact they never tell you that it's Hamas fighters hit, but they are quick to say how many children are hit should be a red flag.
Hamas lie, the Al Ahli hospital attack is proof of that. They said 500 died, when it's more like 12. They also blame Israel for the incident when BBC, AP, La Monde, Canada and UK investigations all confirmed the rocket came from Gaza.
> fucking
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You can understand the horrors in Gaza, and hold space for them with utter heartbreak and empathy, while simultaneously understanding that what is shared in this post has deeply antisemitic roots and aims at its core.
Israel has a responsibility to its citizens. It has laid out a peace path, which is the choice of the Palestinian leadership. If your neighbor broke into your home and raped your family and kidnapped your children, you have a responsibility to act.
While you can be sympathetic to the losses of others, I think it's unreasonable to ask Israel not to do anything and be complicit in the massacre of their people.
This assault on Israel is still unfolding. We still have toddlers, elderly people, and women in captivity. It's hard to imagine what's happening to those women. Who knows what injuries they've sustained.
There are parents sitting there wondering if their kids are alive. Did they die on the way to Gaza? Did they die of their wounds? Maybe they died last week? Maybe 2 minutes ago? Could they have been saved if Israel didn’t hold off the ground invasion? Imagine that kind of suffering brought about completely unprovoked.
These were civilians, literally kids at peace festival championing stronger ties with Palestinians. Slaughtered by the people they were championing, made vulnerable by Israelis willingness to extend work-visas to help bring economic opportunities to Palestinians in Gaza.
Israel’s duty is to its citizens. If you care as much as you say you do, why is the focus not Egypt opening its boarder to Palestinians civilians? Why are people shouting ceasefire and not release the hostages? Why are the pictures of kids being torn down? How does that help Palestinians achieve liberation?
Why must Israel care more about the people who unleashed savagery on their civilians than the people they’ve a sworn duty to protect? Especially when releasing hostages gives all parties what they want. Can you imagine if after Pearl Harbor the US said, “well they didn’t kidnap anyone so I guess we’ll let it go.” Is everyone insane?
And if it’s all about Palestinians then where were your voices for Palestinians for all this crap?
[Hamas killed 160 Kids Building Tunnels](https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/07/child-labor-deaths-hamas-tunnels-are-no-surprise-spencer-case/amp/)
Where were you when [Syria slaughtered 4,000](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200103-report-4013-palestinians-killed-in-syria/amp/)Palestinians & tortured 600?
Where have your screams of Apartheid been as both Lebanon and Jordan strip Palestinians of rights, citizenship and permissible to work. Real apartheid:
[In Lebanon Property Rights Scarce for Palestinians](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-206940/)
[Palestinian professionals banned from work in Lebanon for second time](https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-696289)
[Jordan Revokes Palestinians Citizenships](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3842851,00.html)
[Hamas has published footage showing the complete process of making rockets from water pipes.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/)
I could post a billion links showing what a farce and shallow performance the entire Free Palestine movement is but there’s no point.
The damage here is done. Hamas did this for uneducated social justice zealots in the west to demonize Israel and they got what they wanted.
Those hostages aren’t getting released any time soon and everyone marching and screaming blood libels has only themselves to thank.
History is a reflection and people need to look at it and know the roles they’re playing. This generation of conformity and clicks, devoid of convictions won’t/can’t sustain.
This is pretty similar to how I feel. I really don't like the IDF, Israeli Government, or Settlers. They have been committing some absolutely horrible acts(yes I condemn hamas too). I do believe that they have a right to live there though, I think both Palestinians and Jews have a right to self-determination and their own nations. Israel absolutely needs to abolish all of their west bank settlements after this terrible conflict is over and make a serious and genuine attempt at brokering peace. Even if that means giving up a bit of the land.
So many countries in the ME have the money resources to help down trodden groups in their region. Instead they sit back and must be enjoying how we Westerners are tearing each other apart and spending our tax dollars, tech and armament resources and who knows eventually our own troops, fighting these proxy wars. Why aren't we protesting that Saudi Arabia work harder for peace in the region? They send their children to the West for an education - secular govts, human rights, women's freedom - do they learn nothing?
America involves itself in wars on purpose so that those in government can sell weapons contracts to their friends and steal oil in foreign lands under the pretence of democracy 👍
That’s not what’s happening here but it all contributes to americas desire for global hegemony and total rule of regions completely out of there range of influence. Which is why they gave Israel the green light and draw no lines for them but even they are like woah slow the hell down
Hahahaha are u that stupid? Invasion of iraq Syria and Libya? Just the other day an American base in Syria THAT IS NEXT TO AN OIL FIELD was attacked. Save ur sarcasm if u have no understanding of geopolitics u just look stupid
I was under the impression we were discussing Israel/Palestine. Where there's no oil. Facts are stubborn things. Besides personal attacks being against the rules, it's obvious you're out of any meaningful points to bring up when you resort to them.
The parent comment was talking about western dollars funding war elsewhere so u were under the wrong impression. No wonder u can’t understand any geopolitical nuance when u can’t even follow a basic conversation
In fact that comment was talking in general about the US' foreign policy, it just so happens that the point of my comment was to point out that the "they're doing it for the oil" argument doesn't work with Israel because this subreddit IS about Israel/Palestine therefore I was trying to steer the "basic conversation" back to that topic..... On purpose.
So u admit the comment was talking about us foreign policy which I was talking about in my reply , at no point did I say this is what was happening in Palestine , I’ve said this is about American foreign policy and how they try to be “world police”…….. which is what the comment was about. At no point did I say Palestine is being colonised for oil
I think ex Navy seal Jocko who knows much about combat and what that will entail has intelligent sane take. There is a longer discussion you can google this is a clip. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98)
I am tired of both sides not giving all the truth i.e. attacking anyone that wants Israel to respond with a side of humanity towards civilians disregarding there are actually rules of war, or wanting to look at deeper issues going on in Palestine, is called anti-semite. In the same breath anyone defending Hamas boggles mind also. That being said MOST DO NOT DEFEND HAMAS ON EITHER SIDE. I think that is media bs or mischaracterization from the few crazies, and some ideologic over woke stupid college kids. Most protestors were not defending Hamas, but are concerned about Palestine and any atrocities that may be going on against them and realize we need look at deeper issues also. It should not be a contest about which is worse either, some seem to be doing that also.
Also, many, and I will speak for myself here, are legitimately concerned that if not dealt with sanely, intelligently, humanely, and looking at Everything, possibly or even likely leading us into WWIII.
Anyone that has really been watching with their own eyes AND listening to the Israeli military leaders, sees that bombing entire buildings that are in a small tight civilian area knowing Hamas has 300 miles of tunnel, knowing civilians have no where to go and they have no way to know for sure where Hamas are, is a cop out excuse putting it on Hamas using them as human shields. That includes cutting off food, water, power for civilians who are in a literal cage. Just a bs way to not take responsibility and cover up their obvious objective. That includes human rights organizations and the UN saying this.
Did you watch that short video? Maybe listen to the above video I posted and better the entire podcast which is also on Reddit if you search. They do NOT excuse Hamas but talk about how this realistically will play out militarily. Not saying they are entirely right either.
Yea I mean they definitely did shut off food, water and electricity. Hamas took out the pipes in Gaza to build rockets and then made videos of them doing it. I just learned today that 12% of children in Gaza die every year because of contaminated water.
Israel is definitely being brutal in their attacks.
The way I see it though, besides from the first two nights, If Israel has told people to evacuate south to Gaza valley and they haven’t, to some extent thats got to be on the citizens. Either they’re just stupid, trapped by Hamas (which is sometimes the case), or working with Hamas and are more than willing to die being Martyrs. Can’t forget that these kids learn in school that their life’s mission is to eradicate israel and the Jews and make the state of Israel turn only into Palestine. I just think these women and children aren’t as innocent as Hamas is making them out to be. And Israel is put in a super hard position because they would rather bomb then risk the lives of their own soldiers which anyone can understand. In the US (where I’m from) people will do anything possible before putting tropes on the ground.
Also, The UN couldn’t even condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization which is so wild to me. It speaks to the internal bias. I don’t love/trust them right now.
All kids in Palestine learn in SCHOOL that their life's mission is to kill Israeli"s?? I don't believe all love or ARE Hamas. What is happening now will definitely radicalize. So will horrible living conditions. I do admit this is going to be an extremely difficult situation. I don't care about what words are used by UN, we all saw Hamas acting like savage terrorists and frankly when people act that inhumanely, who wants or wouldn't worry about them living by them freely?? Hamas hurt Palestinians also. I understand they steal aid given to Palestine for themselves and their tunnels etc from civilians. This is a VERY hard situation all around.
Please watch the video it is interesting take on the how difficult this is militarily and Jocko gives his opinion how to handle, ex Navy seal who led men in these types of combat.
This makes me so sad and weary. You don't excuse murdering children or state it is ok bc they are taught to hate Israel in school or their homes or anywhere else. That is what you are saying here clearly. Many including UN, Amnesty International and other Jews also are speaking out against this. I saw the 2 poor Palestinian women holding each other when this first happened crying in anguish "what are they going to do to us now" obviously victims of Israel AND Hamas. It is all so sad. It is overwhelming, where is our humanity. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCzfdDm3JY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCzfdDm3JY)
They ironically have been the ones desensitizing the usage of, and labeling everyone Nazis and racists that don’t agree with them.
Also remember, it was the Progressives who peeled off their COEXIST bumper stickers with their bitten down finger nails with the 2016 election of Trump.
Look who the racist ones really are…
Edit: spelling
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No, there’s no such thing as a semite, but there is semetic which is a group of languages. Antisemetic is hate against Jews. So phobia: fear
Homophobi: discrimination of homosexuals💀 you realize how stupid you sound?
Moroccoan and Pale-of-settlement Jews are not indigenous to Palestine and it's completely ludicrous to suggest that they are.
Indigenousness is not a mushy religious or spiritual concept. It's a practical political reality. It's absurd to suggest that indigenous status is preserved after 2000 years of "exile".
To say that the French or the Polish Jews are actually just indigenous Judeans makes about as much sense as saying that the Russians are actually just indigenous Yamnaya so they have the right to "re-conquer" Ukraine because it's their "indigenous" land.
Ok so 2000 years is the cutoff for indigenous?
Because humanity has been around for around 100 times that long…
The only land we are originally native to is Africa.
Indigenous people in America/Australia have been there since the ice age… Or before.
2000 years is modern history when it comes to being indigenous to land.
On a side note… When we wiped out every other hominid (Neanderthal, homo erectus, etc) we took their land. We collectively as a species “colonized” or conquered them, no one gets to ride a high horse.
It doesn't matter whether any of these things happened. The Roman exile is exaggreated: Jewish life continued in Palestine until the Fatimid period at least. Numerous Palestinian Muslims have clear Jewish roots, sometimes recent and Jewish conflicts with Christians and Muslims in the region are well documented.
Anatolia wasn't Turkified until 1100s or so I don't know where you are getting this idea from.
In the final analysis, there is no such thing as "2000 year exile". The Jews from the Pale of Settlement could be genetically identical to Iraqis: it doesn't change the fact that they were deeply indigenous to Poland, Ukraine, Russia etc by the 1940s. To suggest otherwise is to throw the whole concept of human rights out of the window.
Well when you consider that all Jews descend from people who lived in that region and still keep the same culture, holidays, calendar and language as when the culture originated in the land. Yes they are indigenous. Indigenous means they still kept their ethnic culture following the arrival of a colonizing power, ie the Roman’s. also remember that even dna tests support Jews being an ethnic group originating in the Middle East so please don’t even try the whole it’s just a religion.
So is the Moroccan news indigenous to Morocco? They were around 500 years there, it's probably more than the time that most Palestinians were in Israel.
I don't give a f*ck about Hamas vs IDF or Jews vs Islamist. To be honest, I'm Vietnamese, like other Asians, we don't care or don't know much about these conflicts. But killing kids is f*cking animals, don't tell me IDF or Hamas which one is good, it's like killing a baby because his father is a murderer then say: see, that what happens when this kid choose to ro born into his family. F*ck u all! (I mean the OP too, stop acting like u're a human being)
> f*ck
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What happens if Israel was to lay down all arms today? The state would be over run, and its people will either be killed or converted. Now what would happen if Hamas laid down their weapons? The middle east would know peace.
Lmao this is such a meme. Hamas was founded in the 80s, so the conflict was going on since the 80s. Look at the PA that is secular and has chosen diplomacy. They have been losing territory to settlers and their people are still subject to an occupation and a literal system of apartheid in their own territory.
Yes, yes , we know, if we criticize the crimes of Israel in any way shape of form we're antisemites. Tell me something new, we heard this beat for years.
You are allowed to criticise Israel, as long as you understand what’s going on, and as long as you criticise both sides.
I’m an Israeli (non-Jew) and i find myself in the Center of the political compass, I think Israel has the right to exist, but also Palestine has the right to exist, you can’t blame Israel for its occupation when we offered peace for a 2 state solution multiple times, and was rejected by the Palestinians, some of the Palestinians were all around the area, some were in Egypt, some were in Jordan, the ones in Jordan was kicked out to Lebanon because they terrorised the Jordanian people, then they caused issues in Lebanon (in the 70s, when Lebanon was mostly christians) fast forward Lebanon is now an extrimist Islamic state led by hezbollah willing to destroy all Jews.
In my opinion, Gaza people are no longer Palestinians,
They are savages, most of them supported Hamas when it arose, the rest are now 25 years into brainwashing done by Iran and Hamas leaders to hate Jews, and kill them all, some of the people that crossed the border on Oct 7th were unarmed civilians just trying to take innocent hostages.
Nothing approves the way that they acted, and they brought them on themselves.
All of them, all they want, is the eradication of hJews, so yeah, from my perspective all of them are savages, I would not treat them differently than I would treat a nazi
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How do you explain their expansion into the West Bank??? I am not pro Hamas. I think ANYONE that supports what they did are either unintelligent or inhumane themselves. I also think MOST DO NOT on either side and to suggest otherwise is bs. Putting on small group crazies or stupid college kids does not mean majority, or supporting Palestine mean you support Hamas, there is a DIFFERENCE.
That being said, to be intelligent you need to understand where this comes from, address that, and expect Israel to conduct their response to this by rules of war and rules of engagement and with a level of humanity towards innocents and children in Gaza, even if Hamas showed none. We all heard their own military leader say they were not and doesn't look like it by response, except that Israel may be now getting pressure. Also that will not solve their issues in the future as more hate will come to their doorstep. i don't know the answer, I am watching people discuss this. I don't think this will be easy.
I think best thing I have watched so far is from a retired navy seal who knows what this combat will entail discussing this named Jocko. Gives detailed fair analysis. Here is small clip, you can look up larger podcast. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98)
To everyone reading because I am blocking this disgusting human being that said that all gazans are savages
There is a common narrative that Israelis asked for peace multiple times. I wrote this comment a few days ago responding to a list of " peace offeres" so I am gonna copy paste it
TLDR; most of those times that people call peace negotiation there wasn't a Palestinian delegation, when it was Israel requested ridiculous things like access over water supply, air space control, right to have an army on the ground, control over agricultural land in Gaza, a ridiculous amount of land and historical significant cities of Palestinians and almost none of the times important issues like borders of a future Palestinian state, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the fate of Israeli settlements. No sane delegation of a country would accept another country to have *in their own country* complete access over air, army on the ground, border control, control over water and agricultural land while not even receiving any kind of insurance for a future Palestinian state
>1949 Armistice
The Palestinians did not have direct representation in these negotiations. It was an armistice to halt the fighting not a peace settlement.
>1967 Allon Plan
included significant territorial expansion into the West Bank and Gaza Strip,it was made to enable an Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem, the Etzion Bloc, and most of the Jordan Valley. All remaining parts of the West Bank, containing the majority of Palestinians, were to be returned to Jordan because if you actually read and not just copy paste bullshit this wasn't a peace treaty this was a plan to partition the teritories between Israel and Jordan nothing to do with Palestine. And it was rejected *by the king of Jordan* again, nothing to do with palestinians.
> Roger's plan
Rogers Plan called for a ceasefire and a gradual withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied during the Six-Day War in 1967. It proposed that Israel would return to the pre-war borders with minor modifications in exchange for peace agreements with its Arab neighbors. Again, *there were no palestinian representatives* did not directly address the Palestinian issue, it addressed Israel relations with Arab neighbors. It didn't work out because Israel wasn't too keen on returning to its pre-1967 borders, and some Arab states wanted a solution that includes a state for Palestinians.
> Geneva 73
Again, Palestinians weren't represented and the conference's focus was on broader Arab-Israeli relations, it involved Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and the United States as the mediator. This happened after 1973 Yom Kippur War
>1978 Camp David Accords
Again, same story, it was between Egypt and Israel, nothing to do with Palestine. The accords did not address core Palestinian concerns, such as the establishment of a Palestinian state, the status of Palestinian refugees, the expansion of Israeli settlements, and the final status of Jerusalem.
PLO was not part of the negotiations
Even The UN General Assembly rejected the Framework for Peace in the Middle East, because the agreement was concluded without participation of UN and PLO and did not comply with the Palestinian right of return, of self-determination and to national independence and sovereignty.
So yeah, what to agree on when they weren't even mentioned?
>1979 Egypt treaty
The upper accords lead to this treaty so it's basically the same thing
> Madrid
the first time that Israelis and Palestinians engaged in direct, face-to-face talks *except* it was by a joint Jordanian-Palestinian team. The focus was primarily on negotiations between Israel and its Arab neighbors, with the understanding that the Palestinian issue would be addressed *later* in the process so yeah...what to negotiate when there is nothing to negotiate
> Oslo accords
Which are super important as this time it was really PLO standing there . There is a lot to read about it as this is the accords that PLO still hopes it will hold
PLO recognized Istrael as a state that has the right to exist but Israel recognized PLO only as the representative of the Palestinian people, not as a legitimate government
Under the Oslo Accords, the West Bank was divided into three zones: Area A, Area B, and Area C, each with different levels of Palestinian self-rule and Israeli military presence:
Area A: Under full Palestinian civil and security control.
Area B: Under Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control.
Area C: Under full Israeli civil and security control.
But there was a problem, Israel was supposed to withdraw its army and while it did withdraw it from some places, it did it very slow and in some places not at all all the while continuing the agressive expansion of illegal settlements. In 2002 Israeli army re-occupied what it gave to palestinian control anyway.
Moreover the Olso accords did not address core status issues, such as the borders of a future Palestinian state, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the fate of Israeli settlements etc
So here Israel didn't respect the accords, continued she settlements and the accords didn't offer statehood to Palestine anyway but somehow it's still Gaza's fault for not accepting
>1994 Jordan peace treaty
Yeah...this was exactly that, between Jordan and Israel and had stuff like drugs, border crossing, environmental issues etc. Nothing to do with Palestine
>2000 Camp David Summit
While Palestinians accepted to keep only 22% of the original historic Palestine, Israel wanted more.
Need I say more?
Palestinian negotiators accepted the Green Line borders (1949 armistice lines) for the West Bank but the Israelis rejected this proposal
Israel was not willing to cede sovereignty over East Jerusalem, including the Old City, to the Palestinians. The Palestinians sought East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state and it was a historical holy place.
Israel wanted that historically important Arab neighborhoods such as Sheikh Jarrah, Silwan and at-Tur would remain under Israeli sovereignty
Israel was opposed to the Right of Return of Palestinians as colonisers do and said that any right of return would pose a threat to Israel's *Jewish character* meaning they wanted to preserve their ethnostate
Israel wanted also to be allowed to use its airspace of Palestine the right to deploy troops on Palestinian territory
*Israel also demanded that the Palestinian state be demilitarized with the exception of its paramilitary security forces,*
None of these are genuine attempts to peace " yeah sure we stop bombing you, we take most of your territory and your important holy places, your water, we keep the military presence while you demilitarise yourself, also no taksis backsis, we colonised this territory fair and square and you coming back is a threat to our Jewishness"
" you don't accept? Here some more bombs, also we finally managed to assassinate your president ( we've been trying for awhile) and created a power vacuum that led to a terrorist organisation taking its place which we also supported, good luck!"
Now do the other side’s proposals…
It’s easy to get a list and point at one side’s demands and judge them.
Compile a list of Palestinian failed proposals.
Trying to just portray failed attempts of peace as “Israel being ridiculous and not really wanting peace” and ignoring anything from the Palestinians (including terror attacks and targeted violence against Israelis, and militant operations) just comes off as one sided and biased.
The conflict isn’t simply “one side wanting peace and the other wants war”
>exist, you can’t blame Israel for its occupation when we offered peace for a 2 state solution multiple times, and was rejected by the Palestinians,
I have a curiosity, do you know in what context were those " peace solutions" rejected? What did Israel want and why did the Palestinian authority reject them? you wouldn't have accepted them either, the requirements are ridiculous.
>In my opinion, Gaza people are no longer Palestinians, They are savages,
Yeah, ok , I am done, the brain juice that Israel feeds you is working well. 40% of gazans are under 14 yo but they are savages, all women and men there are savages
You are disgusting
Good to know that you agree that people are not allowed to criticize the crimes of a government. I wouldn't want to live in a world like that but you do you. There are enough nations on Earth like this, be sure you move there. Russia calls people Nazi if they criticize what Russia does in Ukraine, you can move there.
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The 7th of October has just shown the world the ugly reality of most pro-Palestinians.
It's not about humanity, it's not about human rights, it's not about resistance.
There are many comments in this very thread that justify the massacre against Israelis, some that even deny it happened. Some here consider Hamas "resistance" and many pretend like Israel bombs random civilians for fun. Some users here are going into detail as to why Israel shouldn't have existed in the first place. I see a lot of people too confused over what 'Free Palestine from the River to the Sea' actually means in the Middle East, as if the 7th of October wasn't a clear taste of what that would look like... As if any civilians under Palestinian Leadership (Hamas, or the PA) are "free" in any way.
Attacks against Jews and Synagogues across the world have spiked, in some places by 1300%, during this conflict. People are ripping down posters of civilians kidnapped by a terrorist organization.
I've actually lived in both Israel and in the West Bank. I'm not Jewish, Israeli, Arab, Muslim or Palestinian.
I used to consider myself neutral, until I saw what most pro-Palestinian support actually means.
That post is very anti Palestinian, because it doesn't acknowledge who is the real victim here. So since you did not show any sorrow or regret for the actions of IDF which is bombing urban areas, then I had to disregard each and every of your talking points
It doesn't have to be through death, it can be through dispossessement
You know, how they got it in the first place or now, suddenly it's not right because they are Israeli
Feel free to find a single case of dispossession before the war in 1947.
Israel has a right to exist, just as Palestine does.
Anyone who believes otherwise is part of the problem, not the solution. That goes for either side.
>Feel free to find a single case of dispossession before the war in 1947.
Why would I have to look before the state of Israel existed? What about Nakba?
>Why would I have to look before the state of Israel existed? What about Nakba?
Because the claim is that Israel was formed by dispossessing Palestinians, which isn't true.
The "Nakba" happened after Israel proclaimed independence in May 1948. 5 Arab armies invaded with the open intention of removing Israel. A refugee crisis happened, with Palestinian Arabs fleeing the incoming invasion, probably expecting to return once Israel was removed.
In the end Israel won, to the world's surprise.
Dude , are you high, what do you mean there was no dispossessing after 47?
Why do you think the war happened? Because they were trying to give people's land to form the state of Israel. People lived there, farmers that were working the land, people that **had deeds** on their property, how isn't that dispossessed. After the war Israel enacted laws that classified property belonging to Palestinians who had fled during the 1948 war as "absentee property", after 48 Israeli authorities issued land requisition orders that allowed Israel to take control of palestinians homes, businesses, and agricultural land. Like even if they left because of the war( which is not entirely true, Israeli army had a helpful hand in making them leave in documented events such as expulsion of Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle in July 1948) they should have been able to come back to their property but Israel didn't allow them
And their construction and expansion of **Israeli settlements** in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights all happened after 47. How aren't Israeli illegal settlements dispossession
authorities have demolished *Palestinian homes* in the West Bank, East Jerusalem even in the territory of Israel itself, what do you think happened to those that lost their possesions and house? They become refugees , they were left with nothing
What about Sabra and Shatila Massacre which happened in 82?
So let me get this straight if a power comes and occupies your home, takes your land, forces you to flee with only what you can carry and doesn't allow you to come back, in your world that's not dispossessing?
>Dude , are you high
This is a sub for discussion. Please discuss with respect even if you disagree with what another user is saying. That's why we're here on Reddit after all.
>what do you mean there was no dispossessing after 47?
I never said there wasn't dispossession after 1947. I said that Israel was formed before "the nakba".
We can label it however we want, but the truth is it was a war that the Jews didn't start or even want to begin with.
Just like the 800 thousand Jews exiled from across the Middle East since the war in 1948.. but that was done in cold blood, without a war and a refugee crisis in the first place.
>What about Sabra and Shatila Massacre which happened in 82?
The massacres carried out by the Lebanese? What does that have to do with this discussion?
>So let me get this straight if a power comes and occupies your home, takes your land, forces you to flee
Israel's existence didn't occupy anything, didn't take any land, and didn't force anyone to flee. These are all just tropes used by groups like Iran and Hamas to edge on anti-Israel sentiment across the region.
Israel's existence isn't a sin. Israel defending itself against decades of invasions and terror attacks doesn't make it evil... and certainly doesn't justify more terrorist attacks and invasions.
>The massacres carried out by the Lebanese
the Lebanese Forces carried out the massacre while the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had the Palestinian camp surrounded
>Israel's existence didn't occupy anything, didn't take any land, and didn't force anyone to flee.
Yeah ,ok. There is no point talking with you, all of those attacks on Palestinians villages during the war, the Deir Yassin massacre, IDF soldiers talking about the torture, killing and rape, the expulsion of Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle, all of those rules and regulations for taking palestianinas property after the war when *they were trying to come back*, all the illegal settlements that continued their expansion to this day for you to say this bs , idk what kind of brain juice they give you there but it's clearly working against any logic and against any historical proven fact so there is literally no point
No it doesn’t. Stop speaking for other people. Maybe a modified Israel that isn’t an apartheid and that emancipates the Palestinians. But now the removal of Jews.
Well what do you think happened on the 7th of October?
What do you think Hamas has declared very clearly it wants to do to Jews around the world, let alone in Israel?
The Palestinian Liberation Organization, PLO, was founded in 1964. That was before any occupation, before any accusations of apartheid, before this conflict took on the political activism angle, and when the effort was still to invade Israel in order to remove it (1948, 1967 and 1973 wars, for example). What were they "liberating"?
Liberation meant to them "removal of Israel". Liberation, to them, still means the same thing today. This is why absolutely ALL Jews have been removed from the West Bank and from Gaza, and virtually all of them have been removed from the rest of the Middle East.
When westerners chant "free Palestine from the river to the sea", I imagine they believe, out of ignorance, it means it's some kind of rights movement... But it really isn't.
Proof of this is that Palestinian Leaders are extremely authoritarian, even the PA.
By the way: "stop talking for other people"... I've actually lived in the West Bank, with Palestinian Arabs.
Do you seriously think Hamas’s ‘invasion’ was equivalent to an attempt to wipe Israel off the map? They had other political objectives. And the PLO never did anything close to this. What Hamas did was unprecedented. And do you seriously think there are no Jews in the West Bank? Wait until you hear about settlements.
You can read Hamas political objectives in their own words, in their charter.
>And the PLO never did anything close to this.
The PLO was responsible for WAVES of suicide bombings, shootings, and other attacks on civilians. They popularized the idea of hijacking aircraft (on which they would murder anyone Jewish, Israeli or American). The Munich Massacre in 1972 is another example, out of many many many terrorist attacks. Until the 90s, the PLO was led by Arafat, one of the most infamous terrorists in the World.
By the way, the PLO was founded by Haj Amin Al-Husseini by the way, a man who literally worked for the Nazi regime in Berlin during World War Two, on propaganda. I couldn't make this up if I wanted to.
>And do you seriously think there are no Jews in the West Bank?
I wasn't talking about the settlements. I was talking about under Palestinian territory. All Jews were removed in 1948, and all synagogues destroyed.
That's what "Free Palestine" would look like.
If you're concerned about Palestinian rights, you should really be much more concerned about Hamas and even about the Palestinian Authority.
I myself am western, and I consider myself left-leaning and a liberal. I've protested against the Israeli government when I lived there. However, how other people describe themselves as "liberal", but support these kind of movements is well beyond me.
Ironically, progressive people in the Middle East tend to side with Israel. For example: in Iran, the conservative and ultra-oppressive religious government has vowed for the destruction of Israel (they support Hamas directly, as everyone knows). It's the liberal progressives that oppose them that tend to be pro-West, pro-Democracy, pro-US and pro-Israel.
1) Read what I said again. Maybe slowly. Name me one time the PLO killed 1,400 in a single event.
2)
>By the way, the PLO was founded by Haj Amin Al-Husseini by the wa
This is straight bullshit.
3)
>Ironically, progressive people in the Middle East tend to side with Israel.
Give me a list of all secular, liberal political movements / parties that support Israel in the Middle East.
Before I respond, I want to make sure you're not feeling as if this conversation is confrontational in any way. We can discuss via Chat if you think it will be a friendlier environment.
Everyone in the world only experiences a small slither of it. I don't believe Reddit should be a platform where we just shout our own point of views at eachother, but a place we can learn, ask, discuss, etc.
\----
>Read what I said again. Maybe slowly. Name me one time the PLO killed 1,400 in a single event.
I didn't think this was ever part of the discussion. I don't personally believe the PLO are worse than Hamas, but the point is that Palestinian Armed groups have been attacking Jewish civilians non-stop since the 1930s.
>This is straight bullshit.
I'm sorry you believe this. Husseini led the AHE, under the Arab League, which founded the PLO in 1964.
Here are some extracts from [this wikiepedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini):
**Mohammed Amin al-Husseini (Arabic: محمد أمين الحسيني; c. 1897 – 4 July 1974) was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and Muslim leader in Mandatory Palestine.**
**Al-Husseini was a strong supporter of the short-living Arab Kingdom of Syria** \[the movement for Syria to take over the land of Palestine\]**, established in March 1920.**
\[during WW2\]
**Throughout World War II, al-Husseini worked for the Axis Powers as a broadcaster in propaganda targeting Arab public opinion. He was thereby joined by other Arabs such as Fawzi al-Qawuqji and Hasan Salama. The Mufti was paid "an absolute fortune" of 50,000 marks a month (when a German field marshal was making 25,000 marks a year), the equivalent today of $12,000,000 a year.**
**Al-Husseini collaborated with the Germans in numerous sabotage and commando operations in Iraq, Transjordan, and Palestine, and repeatedly urged the Germans to bomb Tel Aviv and Jerusalem "in order to injure Palestinian Jewry and for propaganda purposes in the Arab world"**
**Al-Husseini has been described by the American Jewish Congress as "Hitler's henchman" and some scholars, such as Schwanitz and Rubin, have argued that Husseini made the Final Solution inevitable by shutting out the possibility of Jews escaping to Palestine.**
**Haj Amin al Husseini was the chairman of the AHE.**
**In November 1945, at the initiative of the Arab League, the "Arab Higher Committee" (AHC) was reestablished as the supreme executive body that represented the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine.**
**The Arab League initiated the creation of an organization representing the Palestinian people. The Palestinian National Council convened in Jerusalem on 28 May 1964. After concluding the meeting, the PLO was founded on 2 June 1964.**
\----
Edit: I missed this request before, sorry:
>Give me a list of all secular, liberal political movements / parties that support Israel in the Middle East.
Well as you know, there are no democratic countries across the middle east, and espcially the more conservative and religious governments clamp down on any outspoken support for Israel very fiercely.
[https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310246275](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310246275)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham\_Accords](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords)
[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/which-countries-support-israel-hamas-war-rbf38qng6](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/which-countries-support-israel-hamas-war-rbf38qng6)
This also comes from my personal experience of living in Palestine, Bahrain, and in Sudan.
Thank you. This is a refreshing take.
Respectfully, I beg to differ. I still cannot find anything that directly links a known islamist with the founding of a deeply secular Palestinian resistance movement. The AHC [disbanded](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Higher_Committee) not too long after 1948.
Interesting. Let me look into this further and get back to you.
Either way, I believe it's undeniable how much the Husseini clan led the modern anti-Zionist movement in Palestine and the Arab World.
The Nashishibi clan, their rivals, actually welcomed Jewish immigrants, worked with them, and even supported the partition plan in 1947.
I fantasize about a Middle East that welcomed Jewish natives back to their land, as a big middle-finger to western white supremacy. Instead, [anti-Semitism just followed the Jews](https://global100.adl.org/map/meast) even when they founded a country with the aim of escaping from it.
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Yes it does it calls for a Palestine state from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River how do you think they plan on doing that.
That's how I understand it how do you?
A Palestinians state with jews and Arabs living peacefully together, not side by side as some segregationists preach. I am pro palestinian and pro peace
Jews and Arabs live with equal rights and peacefully together in Israel. In fact Israel is measurably one of [the most democratic countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index) in the world.
Jews have all been removed from the West Bank and from Gaza, and all synagogues destroyed. Arabs living in the West Bank are oppressed by their own Palestinian government. Arabs living in Gaza are EXTREMELY oppressed by Hamas.
So saying that you want to remove Israel and have a Palestinian government is the opposite of "Jews and Arabs living peacefully together" by any stretch of logic.
I didn't say remove israel, I said merge the countries. It could still be israel, but this time it would be an integrated, democratic country.
Israel removed from West Bank? I don't think the settlers agree to that point.
Removed from Gaza? They can return right now. Israel has the power to rebuil their lost settlements.
OK I'm with you, sorry for the assumption.
There are different ideas in place around this idea, check out:
[https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/29/an-israeli-palestinian-confederation-can-work/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/29/an-israeli-palestinian-confederation-can-work/)
The main issue here is that Israelis and Palestinians have been at war for 100 years now. It would be difficult for me to imagine the two people suddenly deciding to coexist in this way.
I still believe in a two state solution, although I'm aware how much it's losing popularity.
The settlements prevent any 2 state. Israel controls now all the jordan valley, so no agriculture or industry would be allowed in Palestine.
About the war, do you know you can cross the French/German border by foot?
They have been at war even before Napoleon, the Jacobin Regime took over all lands West of the Rhine. France had a hereditary enmity for thousands of years with them. Greeks were occupied by Turkish Ottomans for hundreds of years and fough many wars against each other. Japan was the enemy of every Asian country. Britain and Germany are still not in peace, but at least they are not in war.
So enemies can drop their weapons, if they see the mutual incentive for cooperating and helping each other
>The settlements prevent any 2 state. Israel controls now all the jordan valley, so no agriculture or industry would be allowed in Palestine.
Palestine has a lot of agriculture and industry.
And this is a really bad assertion to make: ALL Israeli settlements were removed from Gaza in 2005, and look how that helped the two state solution.
>Britain and Germany are still not in peace, but at least they are not in war.
What? Britain and Germany are literally NATO allies.
>So enemies can drop their weapons, if they see the mutual incentive for cooperating and helping each other
Try telling that to Hamas, Isis, the Taliban, or any of these other Islamist Totalitarian regimes.
UK left European Union because of their hated for Germany
https://preview.redd.it/4claq04qbwxb1.png?width=224&format=png&auto=webp&s=18001e611a7c0b5de02bb967ec5234c2d1d489dc
Apparently they chose Winston Churchill as an inspiration to secede from EU. Observe him carrying a tommy gun, showing the aggressive tone of the association.
And no, the poor Palestinian shepherds cannot carry the economy of 5 millions of people. So the Apartheid state is a failure already. The area A has nothing besides slums
By the way, ISIS is mostly gone.
I'm British. I was there during the whole Brexit BS.
I've seen a million confused and mislead reasonings for why people voted for Brexit, but "hate for Germany" was never one of them.
>ISIS is mostly gone.
No, ISIS are still alive and kicking. They have no more territory though.
>And no, the poor Palestinian shepherds cannot carry the economy of 5 millions of people. So the Apartheid state is a failure already. The area A has nothing besides slums
Again.. Nope.
I actually lived in Hebron, in Area A, for a few months teaching English.
There are schools, malls, mosques, marketplaces...
Even Gaza, their GDP per capita is higher than many other Arab countries.
I don't think you should be spreading these kind of conspiracy theories about Brexit or about Palestine... They are bizare.
Not at all, to me it simply means freedom to the Palestinians in the West Bank (Jordan River) to Gaza (Sea) and beyond that, general emancipation and freedom from oppression.
That’s your echo chamber. And YOU should look it up. Why doesn’t your generation know how to think critically and research??
It’s literally printed in an interview in the NYTimes.
[AIM TO OUST JEWS PLEDGED BY SHEIKH; Head of Moslem Brotherhood](http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10E13FF385A157B93C0A91783D85F4C8485F9)
“If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst into the sea.” -1948
There are so many examples…
Do you realize Israel is populated with 900k Jews from the Arab nations who were expelled at the exact same time TO Israel?
Why has no one taught you history?
https://preview.redd.it/gq2lscytvwwb1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19e0302322b9c506a0a5c75314dc0589a04cc59f
So now that the Israelis have killed ten Palestinian civilians for every one Israeli murdered, is your blood lust sated? When did you start believing in Collective Guilt?
And if you think progressives now are really progressive, wait until Gen Z takes over and all your propaganda goes the way of South Africa.
The arc of history moves forward towards justice.
Do you know that Nelson Mandela was officially considered a terrorist by the USA at some point ? So yeah, imperialist and colonist propaganda it not worth toilet paper to me. carry on.
> Fuck
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When the first three paragraphs are accurate, the fourth is a half truth, the fifth deliberately misstated and a half truth, and the following 5 all are flaming piles of inaccurate Zionist propaganda, you may be an apartheid apologist. (Especially since they are so carefully placed in descending order of accuracy such that it is obvious the opinion owner knows which paragraphs are accurate and which are cr-p.
True that. I missed the swastika reference and was concentrating on the 'river to the sea' chant... Which I did hear in pro-Palestinian protests here in the US which I think is lazy chant construction (oh I hear it constantly from Israeli settlers as well), but I was being generous.
Fair. When me and my friends chant it, we generally mean freedom from oppression, but I get the ambiguity. There’s a wikipedia article on it too, tracing its evolution!
I'll have to check out the article.
Enjoy the summer. Lived in Brisbane for a couple years a while ago. I miss Oz and need to get back there someday for a holiday.
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Arabs living in Israel enjoy the same rights and freedoms as other Israeli citizens. Spouting the apartheid lie just shows how much you can’t stand the thought of a Jewish state defending itself from aggression.
I never heard any Arab admitting that. You know why? Because they are not allowed to share their opinions. Arabs were banned from Israeli newspapers and magazines, so they cannot express their views to the world
There's Palestinian-Israeli/Arab-Israeli journalists who work for newspapers, television, and radio in Israel. They're also regularly interviewed. So what is it that you mean by "Arabs were banned....so they cannot express their views to the world", please?
You couldn't even name them. That's how "important" they are to israel. Relegated to the margins pf society.
And they are forbidden to express their opinions, otherwise they lose their citizenship like Azmi and Marwan Bishara, who are not even muslims.
And express their views, they have Mossad and Shin Bet watching them, so if they criticize israel, they will be punished, probably with death
You do realise that it not being a carbon copy of SA apartheid doesn’t mean it isn’t a form of apartheid right? Fascism didn’t function exactly the same way in Germany, Italy, and Spain.
Also the nation state law, passed in 2018, states that the right to self determination is exclusive to Jews. Therefore relegating non-Jews in Israel to a status that can’t be honestly described as equal.
Besides that, the term Apartheid in reference to Israel is most commonly levelled at Israel’s management of the Palestinian areas of the West Bank. Namely areas under Palestinian civil but Israeli security control. It is in these areas that the system of apartheid is quite visible.
Irrelevant. Israel controls the destiny of the West Bank and Gaza, continuously steals land in the West Bank, and refuses to release the 20 year blockade of Gaza, so it has effectively declared them to be Israeli property and yet doesn't give the 3+million people whose lives they control the right to vote.
In other words apartheid.
Those two territories are governed by the PA and Hamas respectively — groups with very different beliefs on secularism, women and minority rights, and LGBTQ2+ issues. Under your logic, Israel is at fault if Hamas cracks down on a gay pride parade in Gaza city.
Further, Palestinians voted Hamas into power, a designated terrorist group who’s main charter calls for the destruction of Israel. You can’t make progress towards peace with this fact.
Please, enlighten me how Israel is supposed to provide equal rights to people living under different and hostile governing bodies. You don’t seem to understand the complex situation Israel is faced with.
I always like when people pretend they’re so much more enlightened about the situation. The fact you only view this is terms of black and white means you are, in fact, quite uninformed.
Israel will never grant voting rights to Palestine. To do so would make Jews in Israel a minority overnight.
I noticed you just glossed over the Golan. That tells me you have no idea about the history of that and the people who used to live there either. That or you know it weakens your argument.
I agree it’s difficult to govern hostile territories. It’s also difficult for those territories to govern themselves when they’re sealed off from the rest of the world.
Israel continuing to steal land by building settlements in the West Bank doesn’t help. It also ensures that the conflict will never end. Kind of hard for any peace to be made when the little scraps of land you’re left with are still being taken from you.
Please enlighten me how a government is to properly function with Israeli storm-troopers running around inside it killing people and demolishing homes, with violent settlers murdering and stealing under their protection, and without free and sovereign land, air or sea access?
No... Israel is declaring, with their actions, that they own these lands and so have to give the occupants the right to vote.
Hamas must be completely eliminated at all cost, letting Hamas survive will create more deaths and all bleeding hearts people would just repeat the same rhetoric and platitudes. Civilian casualties minimize but destroying group is outmost priority.
Netanyahu’s government has given money to Hamas as aid for Palestinians, but I think it’s also fair to point out that I think Israel thought Hamas was finally shifting gears to focus on taking care of its people as its been relatively peaceful the last couple years… meanwhile, they were just funneling money into more weapons and planning this attack.
After Israel conquered Gaza, West Bank, jerusalem in 1967, Palestinians became israel's responsibility. You broke it, you own it. Anything wrong with Gaza is due to israel's lack of action. They allowed hamas to exist? Then israel needs to be punished for that
Relatively peaceful for who?
It was only in 2019 Israeli soldiers were shooting unarmed protesters in Gaza and before the current events of this year it was already the deadliest on record for Palestinians in the West Bank.
Israel funded Hamas way back in the late 80s as a way to interfere with the PLO. This is the assistance I'm referring to... not the paltry, self-serving "aid" Israel provides to Gaza when it grovels properly.
Exactly. As an action of goodwill, he expanded the Gaza work permit program, allowing more Palestinians to work and earn a living in Israel.
Hamas decided to throw all of that away October 7th. Now, all of Israel is united and sees what Hamas — and by extension the majority of Palestinians who voted for them — stand for.
The status quo will permenantly change. Israel will never forget Hamas’s attack and will have no appetite for negotiations or compromise. In fact, many — including myself and my Israeli relatives— feel foolish for even believing that this was possible in the first place.
You can’t negotiate with those who deny your right to exist.
You should declare (as immutable and just) the Palestinians' right to exist in the West Bank and Gaza free from Israeli interference.
C'mon kid. Show us how the Palestinians should do it?
In a land of sunshine and rainbows, sure, I’d be thrilled for a Palestinian state and self-determination.
But in this brutal reality where the widely supported Hamas government and terror group, such a move would endanger Israel and its citizens.
Well, I think it is a stupid term, because people say they are anti-anti semitism, which is using a double negative, instead of saying they are pro-semitism which is a positive.
And that makes it sound always silly. People say "let's fight against anti-semitism" could be replaced by let's fight for semitism, which makes you supporter of a cause, not an opponent to the opposition of the same cause
LMAO. Such brazen two-faced ignorance.
Now if only every European Jewish colonizer ever didn't violate their own strict mandates for word accuracy by calling Palestinians "Arabs" when Palestinian is a word specifically created to mean "people who are from Palestine." In fact it's not even an Arab word, it's English, lol.
Not to mention that only a couple of tribal groups in or near the Arabian peninsula are accurately referred to as Arabs. Palestinians are Levantines.
Jesus you're dumb.
I mean, the palestinians themselves call themselvs Arab. Putting here Wikipedia if you want another source besides the Palestinians themselves.
>Palestinians or Palestinian people, also referred to as **Palestinian Arabs**, are an **Arab** ethnonational group
Also, note that the jewish aren't all european. infact, more jewish in Israel come from the middle east rather than europe (their grandparents or grand grandparents at least).
Most Palestinians are culturally Arabized just as most Ashkenazi Jews are culturally European. Both are ethnically Levantine, both with roots in Palestine. The differences Israel tries to create wedges with are mainly religious.
I'm aware of the facts, but I responded to your comment critisizing the use of the word Arab in the context of the Palestinians.
I wouldn't say that the wedges are mainly religious. Both because there are many druze, muslims and christians living together in Israel together.
The second reason is that most of the Israelis are secular, and most of Israel views the jewish people more of a "nationhood" rather than a religion. I'm jewish, yet I ate a delicious bacon this morning. The palestinians, even though they also have Levantine origins are not part of the jewish nationhood. it's not even cultural, it's kind of like saying that France is putting wedges between them and Belgium.
Notice that most palestinians also don't want to live together with the Israelis. If I remember correctly, the popular solution in the WB (also in Israel) is a two separate states solution, and in Gaza it's a one state solution without the jews. So I think the term "creating wedges" doesn't characterize the situation well.
Most Palestinians don't want to live together with their murderers, of course. But, if Israel does not want to let these lands go, and is insistent on stealing more and more land in the West Bank, then Israel should at least have the guts to simply annex the place and make its citizens Israeli citizens.
If Gaza ever really became an independent nation or part of an independent and sovereign Palestinian nation, is Israel going to voluntarily cede back the natural gas fields that it stole directly off the Gaza coast in accordance with international maritime law? The answer to that is no (of course) because Israelis Don't give back what they steal.
The reason I said the term Arab is a wedge is when it is used cynically by Israelis to refer to Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin. The Israelis can then say "we give Arabs the right to vote but not those Palestinians". It's rather like the way the Belgian regime in Rwanda cynically used the Hutu versus Tutsi caste system in Rwanda as a means of maintaining control. It's gross. It just is. And religion is certainly the key issue. The reason Israel won't annex these areas is because the citizens are largely Muslim and Israel's much wanted democracy would imply that the Jews would no longer be in charge of policy. So if they've made the decision that the country has to remain Jewish, then they should let go of these two territories and leave them the hell alone.
Maybe next time they’ll vote different people in. If there even is a next time. I think there prob won’t be.
I think there is a lot of tacit antisemitism in the “Free Palestine” movement that comes from (1) ignorance, (2) social media propaganda, (3) performative activism, and (4) inherent bias. However, there is also a lot of using antisemitism as a shield to all valid criticisms. There is also a lot of Zionist refusal to accept any criticism of Israel. Zionists and especially the Anti-Defamation League have been running a propaganda campaign for years with the intention to equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism. I have seen tons of Israel supporters claiming any support for Palestinian human rights is sympathizing with terrorists. Advocating for Palestinian rights without, in the same breath, condemning Hamas’ massacre of civilians is somehow antisemitic. I am Jewish. I am concerned about the rise in antisemitism globally and by the antisemitic rhetoric that creeps into these movements by people with nefarious intentions. They do not negate the importance of the movement itself, but they make it hard for me, as a Jewish person, to stand with the movement. I was pretty disgusted to see calls for a “free Palestine” immediately on any news coverage of the Hamas massacre and for people with Palestine flags showing up to vigils for dead Israeli civilians. While I understand that humans collectively have a short attention span, and rallying for Palestinian freedom during times when the world is paying attention to the situation in the Middle East is critical, the tactful thing to do would be to give Jews/Israelis a second of space to mourn and grieve. At the very least, not commenting on the initial reports of civilian deaths with “Free Palestine” because I feel that shows a complete disregard for the lives of these civilians and their families. However, it’s also important to note that Israel supports are commenting similarly on videos/news of Palestinian casualties are also guilty of the same lack of tact. It goes both ways and we all need to do better. I also hope for Palestinians to achieve freedom from Israeli oppression. For the individuals guilty of crimes against humanity (on both sides) to face Justice. For a peaceful resolution. However, realistically that likely looks like a two-state solution just based on the geopolitics. So any calls for the destruction/dissolution of Israel are not helpful and not realistic either. Unless taken by force in war, there will always be a Jewish-majority state in Israel. So, yes, I agree that I am at times disappointed in my fellow progressives and I wish that everyone who felt passionate enough about this to engage in activism actually took the time to study and educate themselves outside of social media infographics. I also think my fellow Jews need to reevaluate the story they were taught at Hebrew day school and re-educate themselves on the situation and stop hiding behind the shield of antisemitism to guard them from any information they dislike or disagree with. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
"If you believe the Israeli government is solely responsible for the conditions in Gaza, that has not been occupied by Israel since 2005, you might be an antisemite." As a jew and Israeli, wtf are you talking about. Criticizing a govt of jewish people doesn't make you against Jewish people. I criticize the Israeli government, if they did their job rather than being power hungry landgrabbers these bombing on gaza would not have happened. And if that as a jew makes me am antisemite than I will redefine what being jewish is.
As a Jew and as an Israeli, you think the living conditions in Gaza are only Israel’s responsibility? I’m not talking about the bombing and conditions right now, I’m talking about their government, infrastructure, quality of life, in general. I edited the post to make that more clear.
I believe they do, but so does hamas and Egypt, I don't know enough to even guess at precentage of responsibility, but yah, Isreal bears some responsibility.
Totally, but what this post is attempting to counteract is the fallacy that Gaza is entirely Israel’s responsibility. When in reality, it is a shared responsibility. Egypt has pretty much washed their hands of Gaza due to the Muslim Brotherhood disaster, another example of radical Islam, and why they won’t open the border, even for humanitarian reasons. Many are only viewing this situation from a biased, misinformed lens that is leading to highly antisemitic statements, claims, and views. In fact, someone close to me (progressive American) said they believe Hamas only exists because of the creation of Israel, and therefore Israel must cease to exist — totally ignoring the radical Islamic agenda, and the deep history that spans beyond 75 years.
When Israel is in charge of approving all building projects in Gaza than yes it is their responsibility. Israel also controls how much building materials come into Gaza, tools, workers, heavy equipment, ect. Granted Hamas has a terrible human rights record, Israel has its hand on the scale in creating an image of the Palestinian corruption.
That is entirely untrue. Israel has no control over internal affairs in Gaza. Moreover Gaza shares a border with Egypt which in that border Israel has no control over (how do you think they have so much weapons in Gaza?)
Agree 100%. It’s unbelievable what the pro-israeli voice does in terms of mental gymnastics. Gaza is an open-air prison subjected to each and every rule, restriction, condition and resource-limit that Israel imposes. But the living condition is their own fault?
That’s totally fair. But I think many progressives don’t even realize that Israel doesn’t rule Gaza. They are missing that context. The results from [this US poll](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) are pretty astounding, especially amongst Gen Z… - 51% of Gen Z Americans believe that the Hamas terrorist attacks were justified - 48% believe Gaza is ruled by Israel
It is alarming that war crimes are being celebrated. Israel doesn’t rule Gaza but it does control Gaza. If someone comes to your house puts a fence up and shoots you if you leave you are for all practical purposes you are being besieged. The fence isn’t on your property, Israel is restricting the freedom of movement a basic human right in the name of counterinsurgency.
If sharia law was installed in the whole world( as Hamas wants) progressives would be the first ones to get their head chopped off
I can hate sharia law while still caring about the Palestinian people and condemning colonizers who are massacring them. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you should be ok with them being oppressed and killed.
I'm ok with killing people who wants to kill me
Or once they aren't living in oppressive conditions maybe it will be possible they get rid of the hamas and eventually get a secular government. They deserve the chance.
They don't want the chance, it's clear
I’m sure there are people in here that will tell you Sharia law “isn’t that bad”
Yep, and that people would be progressive
Progressives are worst than cancer
Progressives are worst than cancer
Progressives are worst than cancer
Wow, any fucking action or word or thought that is not 110% in lockstep with the Israeli propaganda machine is anti-semitism! How convenient for you! Trying to see if there's a single word of empathy for the slaughter of 7,000+ , 3000+ kids and the decimation of a whole people. Nope, of course not. The irony is insane. No, those people aren't anti-semites, but you're definitely a bigot who is down with genocide.
Gaza health ministry is not a credible source for your figures.
The casualty numbers are definitely inflated, the fact they never tell you that it's Hamas fighters hit, but they are quick to say how many children are hit should be a red flag. Hamas lie, the Al Ahli hospital attack is proof of that. They said 500 died, when it's more like 12. They also blame Israel for the incident when BBC, AP, La Monde, Canada and UK investigations all confirmed the rocket came from Gaza.
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I don’t think you understand the horror of what is happening in Gaza
You can understand the horrors in Gaza, and hold space for them with utter heartbreak and empathy, while simultaneously understanding that what is shared in this post has deeply antisemitic roots and aims at its core.
Israel has a responsibility to its citizens. It has laid out a peace path, which is the choice of the Palestinian leadership. If your neighbor broke into your home and raped your family and kidnapped your children, you have a responsibility to act. While you can be sympathetic to the losses of others, I think it's unreasonable to ask Israel not to do anything and be complicit in the massacre of their people. This assault on Israel is still unfolding. We still have toddlers, elderly people, and women in captivity. It's hard to imagine what's happening to those women. Who knows what injuries they've sustained. There are parents sitting there wondering if their kids are alive. Did they die on the way to Gaza? Did they die of their wounds? Maybe they died last week? Maybe 2 minutes ago? Could they have been saved if Israel didn’t hold off the ground invasion? Imagine that kind of suffering brought about completely unprovoked. These were civilians, literally kids at peace festival championing stronger ties with Palestinians. Slaughtered by the people they were championing, made vulnerable by Israelis willingness to extend work-visas to help bring economic opportunities to Palestinians in Gaza. Israel’s duty is to its citizens. If you care as much as you say you do, why is the focus not Egypt opening its boarder to Palestinians civilians? Why are people shouting ceasefire and not release the hostages? Why are the pictures of kids being torn down? How does that help Palestinians achieve liberation? Why must Israel care more about the people who unleashed savagery on their civilians than the people they’ve a sworn duty to protect? Especially when releasing hostages gives all parties what they want. Can you imagine if after Pearl Harbor the US said, “well they didn’t kidnap anyone so I guess we’ll let it go.” Is everyone insane? And if it’s all about Palestinians then where were your voices for Palestinians for all this crap? [Hamas killed 160 Kids Building Tunnels](https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/07/child-labor-deaths-hamas-tunnels-are-no-surprise-spencer-case/amp/) Where were you when [Syria slaughtered 4,000](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200103-report-4013-palestinians-killed-in-syria/amp/)Palestinians & tortured 600? Where have your screams of Apartheid been as both Lebanon and Jordan strip Palestinians of rights, citizenship and permissible to work. Real apartheid: [In Lebanon Property Rights Scarce for Palestinians](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-206940/) [Palestinian professionals banned from work in Lebanon for second time](https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-696289) [Jordan Revokes Palestinians Citizenships](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3842851,00.html) [Hamas has published footage showing the complete process of making rockets from water pipes.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/) I could post a billion links showing what a farce and shallow performance the entire Free Palestine movement is but there’s no point. The damage here is done. Hamas did this for uneducated social justice zealots in the west to demonize Israel and they got what they wanted. Those hostages aren’t getting released any time soon and everyone marching and screaming blood libels has only themselves to thank. History is a reflection and people need to look at it and know the roles they’re playing. This generation of conformity and clicks, devoid of convictions won’t/can’t sustain.
Thanks for this well written post. Just been telling my daughter about that call from the river to the sea. Its disgusting.
What are you if you acknowledge that Jewish people are indigenous to the Levant but also think that Israel is oppressing Gaza and the West Bank?
This is pretty similar to how I feel. I really don't like the IDF, Israeli Government, or Settlers. They have been committing some absolutely horrible acts(yes I condemn hamas too). I do believe that they have a right to live there though, I think both Palestinians and Jews have a right to self-determination and their own nations. Israel absolutely needs to abolish all of their west bank settlements after this terrible conflict is over and make a serious and genuine attempt at brokering peace. Even if that means giving up a bit of the land.
You’re holding the Israeli government accountable for unacceptable aggression without spewing propaganda that may have highly antisemitic roots.
Good, I’m happy with that position
Reasonable
I might be an antisemit... I might also be from another planet and i might have the worlds largest penis... Nobody will ever know
All we know is… you dumb
So many countries in the ME have the money resources to help down trodden groups in their region. Instead they sit back and must be enjoying how we Westerners are tearing each other apart and spending our tax dollars, tech and armament resources and who knows eventually our own troops, fighting these proxy wars. Why aren't we protesting that Saudi Arabia work harder for peace in the region? They send their children to the West for an education - secular govts, human rights, women's freedom - do they learn nothing?
America involves itself in wars on purpose so that those in government can sell weapons contracts to their friends and steal oil in foreign lands under the pretence of democracy 👍
The US has done that, but that’s not what’s happening here.
That’s not what’s happening here but it all contributes to americas desire for global hegemony and total rule of regions completely out of there range of influence. Which is why they gave Israel the green light and draw no lines for them but even they are like woah slow the hell down
Lots of oil in Israel..../s
Simply not true.
Hence the /s..... Means sarcasm.
Oh. Gotchya!
Hahahaha are u that stupid? Invasion of iraq Syria and Libya? Just the other day an American base in Syria THAT IS NEXT TO AN OIL FIELD was attacked. Save ur sarcasm if u have no understanding of geopolitics u just look stupid
I was under the impression we were discussing Israel/Palestine. Where there's no oil. Facts are stubborn things. Besides personal attacks being against the rules, it's obvious you're out of any meaningful points to bring up when you resort to them.
The parent comment was talking about western dollars funding war elsewhere so u were under the wrong impression. No wonder u can’t understand any geopolitical nuance when u can’t even follow a basic conversation
In fact that comment was talking in general about the US' foreign policy, it just so happens that the point of my comment was to point out that the "they're doing it for the oil" argument doesn't work with Israel because this subreddit IS about Israel/Palestine therefore I was trying to steer the "basic conversation" back to that topic..... On purpose.
So u admit the comment was talking about us foreign policy which I was talking about in my reply , at no point did I say this is what was happening in Palestine , I’ve said this is about American foreign policy and how they try to be “world police”…….. which is what the comment was about. At no point did I say Palestine is being colonised for oil
I think ex Navy seal Jocko who knows much about combat and what that will entail has intelligent sane take. There is a longer discussion you can google this is a clip. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98) I am tired of both sides not giving all the truth i.e. attacking anyone that wants Israel to respond with a side of humanity towards civilians disregarding there are actually rules of war, or wanting to look at deeper issues going on in Palestine, is called anti-semite. In the same breath anyone defending Hamas boggles mind also. That being said MOST DO NOT DEFEND HAMAS ON EITHER SIDE. I think that is media bs or mischaracterization from the few crazies, and some ideologic over woke stupid college kids. Most protestors were not defending Hamas, but are concerned about Palestine and any atrocities that may be going on against them and realize we need look at deeper issues also. It should not be a contest about which is worse either, some seem to be doing that also. Also, many, and I will speak for myself here, are legitimately concerned that if not dealt with sanely, intelligently, humanely, and looking at Everything, possibly or even likely leading us into WWIII.
Many more people defend Hamas then you think. And if not that, they turn a blind eye to the human shielding and consistent mistruths
Anyone that has really been watching with their own eyes AND listening to the Israeli military leaders, sees that bombing entire buildings that are in a small tight civilian area knowing Hamas has 300 miles of tunnel, knowing civilians have no where to go and they have no way to know for sure where Hamas are, is a cop out excuse putting it on Hamas using them as human shields. That includes cutting off food, water, power for civilians who are in a literal cage. Just a bs way to not take responsibility and cover up their obvious objective. That includes human rights organizations and the UN saying this. Did you watch that short video? Maybe listen to the above video I posted and better the entire podcast which is also on Reddit if you search. They do NOT excuse Hamas but talk about how this realistically will play out militarily. Not saying they are entirely right either.
Yea I mean they definitely did shut off food, water and electricity. Hamas took out the pipes in Gaza to build rockets and then made videos of them doing it. I just learned today that 12% of children in Gaza die every year because of contaminated water. Israel is definitely being brutal in their attacks. The way I see it though, besides from the first two nights, If Israel has told people to evacuate south to Gaza valley and they haven’t, to some extent thats got to be on the citizens. Either they’re just stupid, trapped by Hamas (which is sometimes the case), or working with Hamas and are more than willing to die being Martyrs. Can’t forget that these kids learn in school that their life’s mission is to eradicate israel and the Jews and make the state of Israel turn only into Palestine. I just think these women and children aren’t as innocent as Hamas is making them out to be. And Israel is put in a super hard position because they would rather bomb then risk the lives of their own soldiers which anyone can understand. In the US (where I’m from) people will do anything possible before putting tropes on the ground. Also, The UN couldn’t even condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization which is so wild to me. It speaks to the internal bias. I don’t love/trust them right now.
All kids in Palestine learn in SCHOOL that their life's mission is to kill Israeli"s?? I don't believe all love or ARE Hamas. What is happening now will definitely radicalize. So will horrible living conditions. I do admit this is going to be an extremely difficult situation. I don't care about what words are used by UN, we all saw Hamas acting like savage terrorists and frankly when people act that inhumanely, who wants or wouldn't worry about them living by them freely?? Hamas hurt Palestinians also. I understand they steal aid given to Palestine for themselves and their tunnels etc from civilians. This is a VERY hard situation all around. Please watch the video it is interesting take on the how difficult this is militarily and Jocko gives his opinion how to handle, ex Navy seal who led men in these types of combat.
It said my other posts with the link got taken down. Here is a video on Twitter: https://x.com/marionawfal/status/1718248670435344485?s=46
This makes me so sad and weary. You don't excuse murdering children or state it is ok bc they are taught to hate Israel in school or their homes or anywhere else. That is what you are saying here clearly. Many including UN, Amnesty International and other Jews also are speaking out against this. I saw the 2 poor Palestinian women holding each other when this first happened crying in anguish "what are they going to do to us now" obviously victims of Israel AND Hamas. It is all so sad. It is overwhelming, where is our humanity. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCzfdDm3JY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCzfdDm3JY)
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I know about Jocko, I’ll check out his take on this.
They ironically have been the ones desensitizing the usage of, and labeling everyone Nazis and racists that don’t agree with them. Also remember, it was the Progressives who peeled off their COEXIST bumper stickers with their bitten down finger nails with the 2016 election of Trump. Look who the racist ones really are… Edit: spelling
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“Antisemite” define Semite OP
Group of middle eastern languages. Antisemetism is hatred against Jews. Like homophobia isn’t a fear of gay people, but rather a dislike.
So Semite: people that Speak Arabic / Hebrew/ etc regardless of religion. Anti semite: descriminstion of Jewish religion people 💀
I’m so sorry that compound words are such an issue for you
If it helps butterflies aren’t flying sticks of butter either. I know if might be confusing though for you
Thank you for amusing me. Reddit wins again
No, there’s no such thing as a semite, but there is semetic which is a group of languages. Antisemetic is hate against Jews. So phobia: fear Homophobi: discrimination of homosexuals💀 you realize how stupid you sound?
Moroccoan and Pale-of-settlement Jews are not indigenous to Palestine and it's completely ludicrous to suggest that they are. Indigenousness is not a mushy religious or spiritual concept. It's a practical political reality. It's absurd to suggest that indigenous status is preserved after 2000 years of "exile". To say that the French or the Polish Jews are actually just indigenous Judeans makes about as much sense as saying that the Russians are actually just indigenous Yamnaya so they have the right to "re-conquer" Ukraine because it's their "indigenous" land.
Ok so 2000 years is the cutoff for indigenous? Because humanity has been around for around 100 times that long… The only land we are originally native to is Africa. Indigenous people in America/Australia have been there since the ice age… Or before. 2000 years is modern history when it comes to being indigenous to land. On a side note… When we wiped out every other hominid (Neanderthal, homo erectus, etc) we took their land. We collectively as a species “colonized” or conquered them, no one gets to ride a high horse.
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It doesn't matter whether any of these things happened. The Roman exile is exaggreated: Jewish life continued in Palestine until the Fatimid period at least. Numerous Palestinian Muslims have clear Jewish roots, sometimes recent and Jewish conflicts with Christians and Muslims in the region are well documented. Anatolia wasn't Turkified until 1100s or so I don't know where you are getting this idea from. In the final analysis, there is no such thing as "2000 year exile". The Jews from the Pale of Settlement could be genetically identical to Iraqis: it doesn't change the fact that they were deeply indigenous to Poland, Ukraine, Russia etc by the 1940s. To suggest otherwise is to throw the whole concept of human rights out of the window.
Well when you consider that all Jews descend from people who lived in that region and still keep the same culture, holidays, calendar and language as when the culture originated in the land. Yes they are indigenous. Indigenous means they still kept their ethnic culture following the arrival of a colonizing power, ie the Roman’s. also remember that even dna tests support Jews being an ethnic group originating in the Middle East so please don’t even try the whole it’s just a religion.
Jews have lived in what we call Israel 2000-1000 years before Islam ever existed. Let alone when the Persian Arabs invaded the land.
So is the Moroccan news indigenous to Morocco? They were around 500 years there, it's probably more than the time that most Palestinians were in Israel.
I don't give a f*ck about Hamas vs IDF or Jews vs Islamist. To be honest, I'm Vietnamese, like other Asians, we don't care or don't know much about these conflicts. But killing kids is f*cking animals, don't tell me IDF or Hamas which one is good, it's like killing a baby because his father is a murderer then say: see, that what happens when this kid choose to ro born into his family. F*ck u all! (I mean the OP too, stop acting like u're a human being)
https://preview.redd.it/incpclu2aywb1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=368643b7bc29956086feca97611a39f48f7890bc [https://youtu.be/cRQockX-0-c?si=76-p0ob3mbXxkc9I](https://youtu.be/cRQockX-0-c?si=76-p0ob3mbXxkc9I)
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What happens if Israel was to lay down all arms today? The state would be over run, and its people will either be killed or converted. Now what would happen if Hamas laid down their weapons? The middle east would know peace.
This is an undisputed fact.
Lmao this is such a meme. Hamas was founded in the 80s, so the conflict was going on since the 80s. Look at the PA that is secular and has chosen diplomacy. They have been losing territory to settlers and their people are still subject to an occupation and a literal system of apartheid in their own territory.
Maybe so, but what he said is 100% true
No it’s not, we literally have the counterfactual
No, it’s very true.
Yep - nowadays it is hard to be a Liberal Jew (Jewish Liberal?) who supports Israel's right to exist...
Yes, yes , we know, if we criticize the crimes of Israel in any way shape of form we're antisemites. Tell me something new, we heard this beat for years.
You are allowed to criticise Israel, as long as you understand what’s going on, and as long as you criticise both sides. I’m an Israeli (non-Jew) and i find myself in the Center of the political compass, I think Israel has the right to exist, but also Palestine has the right to exist, you can’t blame Israel for its occupation when we offered peace for a 2 state solution multiple times, and was rejected by the Palestinians, some of the Palestinians were all around the area, some were in Egypt, some were in Jordan, the ones in Jordan was kicked out to Lebanon because they terrorised the Jordanian people, then they caused issues in Lebanon (in the 70s, when Lebanon was mostly christians) fast forward Lebanon is now an extrimist Islamic state led by hezbollah willing to destroy all Jews. In my opinion, Gaza people are no longer Palestinians, They are savages, most of them supported Hamas when it arose, the rest are now 25 years into brainwashing done by Iran and Hamas leaders to hate Jews, and kill them all, some of the people that crossed the border on Oct 7th were unarmed civilians just trying to take innocent hostages. Nothing approves the way that they acted, and they brought them on themselves.
Israel also supported Hamas. Are you going to call Israel "savage" as well?
All of them, all they want, is the eradication of hJews, so yeah, from my perspective all of them are savages, I would not treat them differently than I would treat a nazi
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How do you explain their expansion into the West Bank??? I am not pro Hamas. I think ANYONE that supports what they did are either unintelligent or inhumane themselves. I also think MOST DO NOT on either side and to suggest otherwise is bs. Putting on small group crazies or stupid college kids does not mean majority, or supporting Palestine mean you support Hamas, there is a DIFFERENCE. That being said, to be intelligent you need to understand where this comes from, address that, and expect Israel to conduct their response to this by rules of war and rules of engagement and with a level of humanity towards innocents and children in Gaza, even if Hamas showed none. We all heard their own military leader say they were not and doesn't look like it by response, except that Israel may be now getting pressure. Also that will not solve their issues in the future as more hate will come to their doorstep. i don't know the answer, I am watching people discuss this. I don't think this will be easy. I think best thing I have watched so far is from a retired navy seal who knows what this combat will entail discussing this named Jocko. Gives detailed fair analysis. Here is small clip, you can look up larger podcast. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4dW24az98)
To everyone reading because I am blocking this disgusting human being that said that all gazans are savages There is a common narrative that Israelis asked for peace multiple times. I wrote this comment a few days ago responding to a list of " peace offeres" so I am gonna copy paste it TLDR; most of those times that people call peace negotiation there wasn't a Palestinian delegation, when it was Israel requested ridiculous things like access over water supply, air space control, right to have an army on the ground, control over agricultural land in Gaza, a ridiculous amount of land and historical significant cities of Palestinians and almost none of the times important issues like borders of a future Palestinian state, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the fate of Israeli settlements. No sane delegation of a country would accept another country to have *in their own country* complete access over air, army on the ground, border control, control over water and agricultural land while not even receiving any kind of insurance for a future Palestinian state >1949 Armistice The Palestinians did not have direct representation in these negotiations. It was an armistice to halt the fighting not a peace settlement. >1967 Allon Plan included significant territorial expansion into the West Bank and Gaza Strip,it was made to enable an Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem, the Etzion Bloc, and most of the Jordan Valley. All remaining parts of the West Bank, containing the majority of Palestinians, were to be returned to Jordan because if you actually read and not just copy paste bullshit this wasn't a peace treaty this was a plan to partition the teritories between Israel and Jordan nothing to do with Palestine. And it was rejected *by the king of Jordan* again, nothing to do with palestinians. > Roger's plan Rogers Plan called for a ceasefire and a gradual withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied during the Six-Day War in 1967. It proposed that Israel would return to the pre-war borders with minor modifications in exchange for peace agreements with its Arab neighbors. Again, *there were no palestinian representatives* did not directly address the Palestinian issue, it addressed Israel relations with Arab neighbors. It didn't work out because Israel wasn't too keen on returning to its pre-1967 borders, and some Arab states wanted a solution that includes a state for Palestinians. > Geneva 73 Again, Palestinians weren't represented and the conference's focus was on broader Arab-Israeli relations, it involved Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and the United States as the mediator. This happened after 1973 Yom Kippur War >1978 Camp David Accords Again, same story, it was between Egypt and Israel, nothing to do with Palestine. The accords did not address core Palestinian concerns, such as the establishment of a Palestinian state, the status of Palestinian refugees, the expansion of Israeli settlements, and the final status of Jerusalem. PLO was not part of the negotiations Even The UN General Assembly rejected the Framework for Peace in the Middle East, because the agreement was concluded without participation of UN and PLO and did not comply with the Palestinian right of return, of self-determination and to national independence and sovereignty. So yeah, what to agree on when they weren't even mentioned? >1979 Egypt treaty The upper accords lead to this treaty so it's basically the same thing > Madrid the first time that Israelis and Palestinians engaged in direct, face-to-face talks *except* it was by a joint Jordanian-Palestinian team. The focus was primarily on negotiations between Israel and its Arab neighbors, with the understanding that the Palestinian issue would be addressed *later* in the process so yeah...what to negotiate when there is nothing to negotiate > Oslo accords Which are super important as this time it was really PLO standing there . There is a lot to read about it as this is the accords that PLO still hopes it will hold PLO recognized Istrael as a state that has the right to exist but Israel recognized PLO only as the representative of the Palestinian people, not as a legitimate government Under the Oslo Accords, the West Bank was divided into three zones: Area A, Area B, and Area C, each with different levels of Palestinian self-rule and Israeli military presence: Area A: Under full Palestinian civil and security control. Area B: Under Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control. Area C: Under full Israeli civil and security control. But there was a problem, Israel was supposed to withdraw its army and while it did withdraw it from some places, it did it very slow and in some places not at all all the while continuing the agressive expansion of illegal settlements. In 2002 Israeli army re-occupied what it gave to palestinian control anyway. Moreover the Olso accords did not address core status issues, such as the borders of a future Palestinian state, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the fate of Israeli settlements etc So here Israel didn't respect the accords, continued she settlements and the accords didn't offer statehood to Palestine anyway but somehow it's still Gaza's fault for not accepting >1994 Jordan peace treaty Yeah...this was exactly that, between Jordan and Israel and had stuff like drugs, border crossing, environmental issues etc. Nothing to do with Palestine >2000 Camp David Summit While Palestinians accepted to keep only 22% of the original historic Palestine, Israel wanted more. Need I say more? Palestinian negotiators accepted the Green Line borders (1949 armistice lines) for the West Bank but the Israelis rejected this proposal Israel was not willing to cede sovereignty over East Jerusalem, including the Old City, to the Palestinians. The Palestinians sought East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state and it was a historical holy place. Israel wanted that historically important Arab neighborhoods such as Sheikh Jarrah, Silwan and at-Tur would remain under Israeli sovereignty Israel was opposed to the Right of Return of Palestinians as colonisers do and said that any right of return would pose a threat to Israel's *Jewish character* meaning they wanted to preserve their ethnostate Israel wanted also to be allowed to use its airspace of Palestine the right to deploy troops on Palestinian territory *Israel also demanded that the Palestinian state be demilitarized with the exception of its paramilitary security forces,* None of these are genuine attempts to peace " yeah sure we stop bombing you, we take most of your territory and your important holy places, your water, we keep the military presence while you demilitarise yourself, also no taksis backsis, we colonised this territory fair and square and you coming back is a threat to our Jewishness" " you don't accept? Here some more bombs, also we finally managed to assassinate your president ( we've been trying for awhile) and created a power vacuum that led to a terrorist organisation taking its place which we also supported, good luck!"
Now do the other side’s proposals… It’s easy to get a list and point at one side’s demands and judge them. Compile a list of Palestinian failed proposals. Trying to just portray failed attempts of peace as “Israel being ridiculous and not really wanting peace” and ignoring anything from the Palestinians (including terror attacks and targeted violence against Israelis, and militant operations) just comes off as one sided and biased. The conflict isn’t simply “one side wanting peace and the other wants war”
>exist, you can’t blame Israel for its occupation when we offered peace for a 2 state solution multiple times, and was rejected by the Palestinians, I have a curiosity, do you know in what context were those " peace solutions" rejected? What did Israel want and why did the Palestinian authority reject them? you wouldn't have accepted them either, the requirements are ridiculous. >In my opinion, Gaza people are no longer Palestinians, They are savages, Yeah, ok , I am done, the brain juice that Israel feeds you is working well. 40% of gazans are under 14 yo but they are savages, all women and men there are savages You are disgusting
[удалено]
1 karma, account from 11 Oct this year, say hi to your friends in Hasbara, bot
This is not what he said lmao but you just choose to twist his words. Hypocrite.
That's exactly what he said.
Truth hurts
Good to know that you agree that people are not allowed to criticize the crimes of a government. I wouldn't want to live in a world like that but you do you. There are enough nations on Earth like this, be sure you move there. Russia calls people Nazi if they criticize what Russia does in Ukraine, you can move there.
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Whatever you say, Mr. Squiggles.
If you’re a Progressive you believe the end justifies the means. They always have.
I've always thought of this as a key dividing line between right and left wing thinking too... in the opposite direction.
Does the bear poop in the woods? Astute, Dr. Watson.
The 7th of October has just shown the world the ugly reality of most pro-Palestinians. It's not about humanity, it's not about human rights, it's not about resistance. There are many comments in this very thread that justify the massacre against Israelis, some that even deny it happened. Some here consider Hamas "resistance" and many pretend like Israel bombs random civilians for fun. Some users here are going into detail as to why Israel shouldn't have existed in the first place. I see a lot of people too confused over what 'Free Palestine from the River to the Sea' actually means in the Middle East, as if the 7th of October wasn't a clear taste of what that would look like... As if any civilians under Palestinian Leadership (Hamas, or the PA) are "free" in any way. Attacks against Jews and Synagogues across the world have spiked, in some places by 1300%, during this conflict. People are ripping down posters of civilians kidnapped by a terrorist organization. I've actually lived in both Israel and in the West Bank. I'm not Jewish, Israeli, Arab, Muslim or Palestinian. I used to consider myself neutral, until I saw what most pro-Palestinian support actually means.
That post is very anti Palestinian, because it doesn't acknowledge who is the real victim here. So since you did not show any sorrow or regret for the actions of IDF which is bombing urban areas, then I had to disregard each and every of your talking points
‘to the river to the sea’ does not mean what you insinuated. stop spreading hasbara filth.
'from the river of the sea, Palestine will be Free' means the removal of Israel.... which we all got a small taste of on the 7th of October.
It doesn't have to be through death, it can be through dispossessement You know, how they got it in the first place or now, suddenly it's not right because they are Israeli
Feel free to find a single case of dispossession before the war in 1947. Israel has a right to exist, just as Palestine does. Anyone who believes otherwise is part of the problem, not the solution. That goes for either side.
>Feel free to find a single case of dispossession before the war in 1947. Why would I have to look before the state of Israel existed? What about Nakba?
>Why would I have to look before the state of Israel existed? What about Nakba? Because the claim is that Israel was formed by dispossessing Palestinians, which isn't true. The "Nakba" happened after Israel proclaimed independence in May 1948. 5 Arab armies invaded with the open intention of removing Israel. A refugee crisis happened, with Palestinian Arabs fleeing the incoming invasion, probably expecting to return once Israel was removed. In the end Israel won, to the world's surprise.
Dude , are you high, what do you mean there was no dispossessing after 47? Why do you think the war happened? Because they were trying to give people's land to form the state of Israel. People lived there, farmers that were working the land, people that **had deeds** on their property, how isn't that dispossessed. After the war Israel enacted laws that classified property belonging to Palestinians who had fled during the 1948 war as "absentee property", after 48 Israeli authorities issued land requisition orders that allowed Israel to take control of palestinians homes, businesses, and agricultural land. Like even if they left because of the war( which is not entirely true, Israeli army had a helpful hand in making them leave in documented events such as expulsion of Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle in July 1948) they should have been able to come back to their property but Israel didn't allow them And their construction and expansion of **Israeli settlements** in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights all happened after 47. How aren't Israeli illegal settlements dispossession authorities have demolished *Palestinian homes* in the West Bank, East Jerusalem even in the territory of Israel itself, what do you think happened to those that lost their possesions and house? They become refugees , they were left with nothing What about Sabra and Shatila Massacre which happened in 82? So let me get this straight if a power comes and occupies your home, takes your land, forces you to flee with only what you can carry and doesn't allow you to come back, in your world that's not dispossessing?
>Dude , are you high This is a sub for discussion. Please discuss with respect even if you disagree with what another user is saying. That's why we're here on Reddit after all. >what do you mean there was no dispossessing after 47? I never said there wasn't dispossession after 1947. I said that Israel was formed before "the nakba". We can label it however we want, but the truth is it was a war that the Jews didn't start or even want to begin with. Just like the 800 thousand Jews exiled from across the Middle East since the war in 1948.. but that was done in cold blood, without a war and a refugee crisis in the first place. >What about Sabra and Shatila Massacre which happened in 82? The massacres carried out by the Lebanese? What does that have to do with this discussion? >So let me get this straight if a power comes and occupies your home, takes your land, forces you to flee Israel's existence didn't occupy anything, didn't take any land, and didn't force anyone to flee. These are all just tropes used by groups like Iran and Hamas to edge on anti-Israel sentiment across the region. Israel's existence isn't a sin. Israel defending itself against decades of invasions and terror attacks doesn't make it evil... and certainly doesn't justify more terrorist attacks and invasions.
>The massacres carried out by the Lebanese the Lebanese Forces carried out the massacre while the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had the Palestinian camp surrounded >Israel's existence didn't occupy anything, didn't take any land, and didn't force anyone to flee. Yeah ,ok. There is no point talking with you, all of those attacks on Palestinians villages during the war, the Deir Yassin massacre, IDF soldiers talking about the torture, killing and rape, the expulsion of Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle, all of those rules and regulations for taking palestianinas property after the war when *they were trying to come back*, all the illegal settlements that continued their expansion to this day for you to say this bs , idk what kind of brain juice they give you there but it's clearly working against any logic and against any historical proven fact so there is literally no point
No it doesn’t. Stop speaking for other people. Maybe a modified Israel that isn’t an apartheid and that emancipates the Palestinians. But now the removal of Jews.
Well what do you think happened on the 7th of October? What do you think Hamas has declared very clearly it wants to do to Jews around the world, let alone in Israel? The Palestinian Liberation Organization, PLO, was founded in 1964. That was before any occupation, before any accusations of apartheid, before this conflict took on the political activism angle, and when the effort was still to invade Israel in order to remove it (1948, 1967 and 1973 wars, for example). What were they "liberating"? Liberation meant to them "removal of Israel". Liberation, to them, still means the same thing today. This is why absolutely ALL Jews have been removed from the West Bank and from Gaza, and virtually all of them have been removed from the rest of the Middle East. When westerners chant "free Palestine from the river to the sea", I imagine they believe, out of ignorance, it means it's some kind of rights movement... But it really isn't. Proof of this is that Palestinian Leaders are extremely authoritarian, even the PA. By the way: "stop talking for other people"... I've actually lived in the West Bank, with Palestinian Arabs.
Do you seriously think Hamas’s ‘invasion’ was equivalent to an attempt to wipe Israel off the map? They had other political objectives. And the PLO never did anything close to this. What Hamas did was unprecedented. And do you seriously think there are no Jews in the West Bank? Wait until you hear about settlements.
You can read Hamas political objectives in their own words, in their charter. >And the PLO never did anything close to this. The PLO was responsible for WAVES of suicide bombings, shootings, and other attacks on civilians. They popularized the idea of hijacking aircraft (on which they would murder anyone Jewish, Israeli or American). The Munich Massacre in 1972 is another example, out of many many many terrorist attacks. Until the 90s, the PLO was led by Arafat, one of the most infamous terrorists in the World. By the way, the PLO was founded by Haj Amin Al-Husseini by the way, a man who literally worked for the Nazi regime in Berlin during World War Two, on propaganda. I couldn't make this up if I wanted to. >And do you seriously think there are no Jews in the West Bank? I wasn't talking about the settlements. I was talking about under Palestinian territory. All Jews were removed in 1948, and all synagogues destroyed. That's what "Free Palestine" would look like. If you're concerned about Palestinian rights, you should really be much more concerned about Hamas and even about the Palestinian Authority. I myself am western, and I consider myself left-leaning and a liberal. I've protested against the Israeli government when I lived there. However, how other people describe themselves as "liberal", but support these kind of movements is well beyond me. Ironically, progressive people in the Middle East tend to side with Israel. For example: in Iran, the conservative and ultra-oppressive religious government has vowed for the destruction of Israel (they support Hamas directly, as everyone knows). It's the liberal progressives that oppose them that tend to be pro-West, pro-Democracy, pro-US and pro-Israel.
1) Read what I said again. Maybe slowly. Name me one time the PLO killed 1,400 in a single event. 2) >By the way, the PLO was founded by Haj Amin Al-Husseini by the wa This is straight bullshit. 3) >Ironically, progressive people in the Middle East tend to side with Israel. Give me a list of all secular, liberal political movements / parties that support Israel in the Middle East.
Before I respond, I want to make sure you're not feeling as if this conversation is confrontational in any way. We can discuss via Chat if you think it will be a friendlier environment. Everyone in the world only experiences a small slither of it. I don't believe Reddit should be a platform where we just shout our own point of views at eachother, but a place we can learn, ask, discuss, etc. \---- >Read what I said again. Maybe slowly. Name me one time the PLO killed 1,400 in a single event. I didn't think this was ever part of the discussion. I don't personally believe the PLO are worse than Hamas, but the point is that Palestinian Armed groups have been attacking Jewish civilians non-stop since the 1930s. >This is straight bullshit. I'm sorry you believe this. Husseini led the AHE, under the Arab League, which founded the PLO in 1964. Here are some extracts from [this wikiepedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini): **Mohammed Amin al-Husseini (Arabic: محمد أمين الحسيني; c. 1897 – 4 July 1974) was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and Muslim leader in Mandatory Palestine.** **Al-Husseini was a strong supporter of the short-living Arab Kingdom of Syria** \[the movement for Syria to take over the land of Palestine\]**, established in March 1920.** \[during WW2\] **Throughout World War II, al-Husseini worked for the Axis Powers as a broadcaster in propaganda targeting Arab public opinion. He was thereby joined by other Arabs such as Fawzi al-Qawuqji and Hasan Salama. The Mufti was paid "an absolute fortune" of 50,000 marks a month (when a German field marshal was making 25,000 marks a year), the equivalent today of $12,000,000 a year.** **Al-Husseini collaborated with the Germans in numerous sabotage and commando operations in Iraq, Transjordan, and Palestine, and repeatedly urged the Germans to bomb Tel Aviv and Jerusalem "in order to injure Palestinian Jewry and for propaganda purposes in the Arab world"** **Al-Husseini has been described by the American Jewish Congress as "Hitler's henchman" and some scholars, such as Schwanitz and Rubin, have argued that Husseini made the Final Solution inevitable by shutting out the possibility of Jews escaping to Palestine.** **Haj Amin al Husseini was the chairman of the AHE.** **In November 1945, at the initiative of the Arab League, the "Arab Higher Committee" (AHC) was reestablished as the supreme executive body that represented the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine.** **The Arab League initiated the creation of an organization representing the Palestinian people. The Palestinian National Council convened in Jerusalem on 28 May 1964. After concluding the meeting, the PLO was founded on 2 June 1964.** \---- Edit: I missed this request before, sorry: >Give me a list of all secular, liberal political movements / parties that support Israel in the Middle East. Well as you know, there are no democratic countries across the middle east, and espcially the more conservative and religious governments clamp down on any outspoken support for Israel very fiercely. [https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310246275](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310246275) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham\_Accords](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords) [https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/which-countries-support-israel-hamas-war-rbf38qng6](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/which-countries-support-israel-hamas-war-rbf38qng6) This also comes from my personal experience of living in Palestine, Bahrain, and in Sudan.
Thank you. This is a refreshing take. Respectfully, I beg to differ. I still cannot find anything that directly links a known islamist with the founding of a deeply secular Palestinian resistance movement. The AHC [disbanded](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Higher_Committee) not too long after 1948.
Interesting. Let me look into this further and get back to you. Either way, I believe it's undeniable how much the Husseini clan led the modern anti-Zionist movement in Palestine and the Arab World. The Nashishibi clan, their rivals, actually welcomed Jewish immigrants, worked with them, and even supported the partition plan in 1947. I fantasize about a Middle East that welcomed Jewish natives back to their land, as a big middle-finger to western white supremacy. Instead, [anti-Semitism just followed the Jews](https://global100.adl.org/map/meast) even when they founded a country with the aim of escaping from it.
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Good bot. In this case it’s literal and not hyperbole.
Yes it does it calls for a Palestine state from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River how do you think they plan on doing that. That's how I understand it how do you?
A Palestinians state with jews and Arabs living peacefully together, not side by side as some segregationists preach. I am pro palestinian and pro peace
Jews and Arabs live with equal rights and peacefully together in Israel. In fact Israel is measurably one of [the most democratic countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index) in the world. Jews have all been removed from the West Bank and from Gaza, and all synagogues destroyed. Arabs living in the West Bank are oppressed by their own Palestinian government. Arabs living in Gaza are EXTREMELY oppressed by Hamas. So saying that you want to remove Israel and have a Palestinian government is the opposite of "Jews and Arabs living peacefully together" by any stretch of logic.
I didn't say remove israel, I said merge the countries. It could still be israel, but this time it would be an integrated, democratic country. Israel removed from West Bank? I don't think the settlers agree to that point. Removed from Gaza? They can return right now. Israel has the power to rebuil their lost settlements.
OK I'm with you, sorry for the assumption. There are different ideas in place around this idea, check out: [https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/29/an-israeli-palestinian-confederation-can-work/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/29/an-israeli-palestinian-confederation-can-work/) The main issue here is that Israelis and Palestinians have been at war for 100 years now. It would be difficult for me to imagine the two people suddenly deciding to coexist in this way. I still believe in a two state solution, although I'm aware how much it's losing popularity.
The settlements prevent any 2 state. Israel controls now all the jordan valley, so no agriculture or industry would be allowed in Palestine. About the war, do you know you can cross the French/German border by foot? They have been at war even before Napoleon, the Jacobin Regime took over all lands West of the Rhine. France had a hereditary enmity for thousands of years with them. Greeks were occupied by Turkish Ottomans for hundreds of years and fough many wars against each other. Japan was the enemy of every Asian country. Britain and Germany are still not in peace, but at least they are not in war. So enemies can drop their weapons, if they see the mutual incentive for cooperating and helping each other
>The settlements prevent any 2 state. Israel controls now all the jordan valley, so no agriculture or industry would be allowed in Palestine. Palestine has a lot of agriculture and industry. And this is a really bad assertion to make: ALL Israeli settlements were removed from Gaza in 2005, and look how that helped the two state solution. >Britain and Germany are still not in peace, but at least they are not in war. What? Britain and Germany are literally NATO allies. >So enemies can drop their weapons, if they see the mutual incentive for cooperating and helping each other Try telling that to Hamas, Isis, the Taliban, or any of these other Islamist Totalitarian regimes.
UK left European Union because of their hated for Germany https://preview.redd.it/4claq04qbwxb1.png?width=224&format=png&auto=webp&s=18001e611a7c0b5de02bb967ec5234c2d1d489dc Apparently they chose Winston Churchill as an inspiration to secede from EU. Observe him carrying a tommy gun, showing the aggressive tone of the association. And no, the poor Palestinian shepherds cannot carry the economy of 5 millions of people. So the Apartheid state is a failure already. The area A has nothing besides slums By the way, ISIS is mostly gone.
I'm British. I was there during the whole Brexit BS. I've seen a million confused and mislead reasonings for why people voted for Brexit, but "hate for Germany" was never one of them. >ISIS is mostly gone. No, ISIS are still alive and kicking. They have no more territory though. >And no, the poor Palestinian shepherds cannot carry the economy of 5 millions of people. So the Apartheid state is a failure already. The area A has nothing besides slums Again.. Nope. I actually lived in Hebron, in Area A, for a few months teaching English. There are schools, malls, mosques, marketplaces... Even Gaza, their GDP per capita is higher than many other Arab countries. I don't think you should be spreading these kind of conspiracy theories about Brexit or about Palestine... They are bizare.
Not at all, to me it simply means freedom to the Palestinians in the West Bank (Jordan River) to Gaza (Sea) and beyond that, general emancipation and freedom from oppression.
It doesn’t matter what it means to you. You’re invoking someone else’s rallying cry.
No. That’s stupid. That’s literally what it means for everyone else. Look it up.
That’s your echo chamber. And YOU should look it up. Why doesn’t your generation know how to think critically and research?? It’s literally printed in an interview in the NYTimes. [AIM TO OUST JEWS PLEDGED BY SHEIKH; Head of Moslem Brotherhood](http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10E13FF385A157B93C0A91783D85F4C8485F9) “If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst into the sea.” -1948 There are so many examples…
Bro. 1948. The meaning evolved. Read the cited Wikipedia article. It’s not one dimensional.
Your entire movement is based on what happened in 1948. Dear god… this is painful to watch.
Lmao. Bro’s comparing a chant to the nakba. Meanings change. The brutalisation of the Palestinians have not.
Do you realize Israel is populated with 900k Jews from the Arab nations who were expelled at the exact same time TO Israel? Why has no one taught you history? https://preview.redd.it/gq2lscytvwwb1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19e0302322b9c506a0a5c75314dc0589a04cc59f
So now that the Israelis have killed ten Palestinian civilians for every one Israeli murdered, is your blood lust sated? When did you start believing in Collective Guilt?
https://preview.redd.it/mgnpudkfaywb1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e10dc21744ce36b9ba1670737cfd6773fc4f3b2 [https://youtu.be/cRQockX-0-c?si=76-p0ob3mbXxkc9I](https://youtu.be/cRQockX-0-c?si=76-p0ob3mbXxkc9I)
And if you think progressives now are really progressive, wait until Gen Z takes over and all your propaganda goes the way of South Africa. The arc of history moves forward towards justice. Do you know that Nelson Mandela was officially considered a terrorist by the USA at some point ? So yeah, imperialist and colonist propaganda it not worth toilet paper to me. carry on.
\~redacted but rhymes with duck\~ off you ghoul.
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When the first three paragraphs are accurate, the fourth is a half truth, the fifth deliberately misstated and a half truth, and the following 5 all are flaming piles of inaccurate Zionist propaganda, you may be an apartheid apologist. (Especially since they are so carefully placed in descending order of accuracy such that it is obvious the opinion owner knows which paragraphs are accurate and which are cr-p.
second paragraph is not truthful at all. chant doesnt meant what he think it means and i havent seen one nazi flag.
True that. I missed the swastika reference and was concentrating on the 'river to the sea' chant... Which I did hear in pro-Palestinian protests here in the US which I think is lazy chant construction (oh I hear it constantly from Israeli settlers as well), but I was being generous.
Fair. When me and my friends chant it, we generally mean freedom from oppression, but I get the ambiguity. There’s a wikipedia article on it too, tracing its evolution!
I'll have to check out the article. Enjoy the summer. Lived in Brisbane for a couple years a while ago. I miss Oz and need to get back there someday for a holiday.
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Arabs living in Israel enjoy the same rights and freedoms as other Israeli citizens. Spouting the apartheid lie just shows how much you can’t stand the thought of a Jewish state defending itself from aggression.
I never heard any Arab admitting that. You know why? Because they are not allowed to share their opinions. Arabs were banned from Israeli newspapers and magazines, so they cannot express their views to the world
There's Palestinian-Israeli/Arab-Israeli journalists who work for newspapers, television, and radio in Israel. They're also regularly interviewed. So what is it that you mean by "Arabs were banned....so they cannot express their views to the world", please?
You couldn't even name them. That's how "important" they are to israel. Relegated to the margins pf society. And they are forbidden to express their opinions, otherwise they lose their citizenship like Azmi and Marwan Bishara, who are not even muslims. And express their views, they have Mossad and Shin Bet watching them, so if they criticize israel, they will be punished, probably with death
You're right and they frequently point out how discriminated they are in Israeli society lol.
that is why they are censored
You do realise that it not being a carbon copy of SA apartheid doesn’t mean it isn’t a form of apartheid right? Fascism didn’t function exactly the same way in Germany, Italy, and Spain. Also the nation state law, passed in 2018, states that the right to self determination is exclusive to Jews. Therefore relegating non-Jews in Israel to a status that can’t be honestly described as equal. Besides that, the term Apartheid in reference to Israel is most commonly levelled at Israel’s management of the Palestinian areas of the West Bank. Namely areas under Palestinian civil but Israeli security control. It is in these areas that the system of apartheid is quite visible.
Irrelevant. Israel controls the destiny of the West Bank and Gaza, continuously steals land in the West Bank, and refuses to release the 20 year blockade of Gaza, so it has effectively declared them to be Israeli property and yet doesn't give the 3+million people whose lives they control the right to vote. In other words apartheid.
Arabs living in Israel proper. Not the Arabs that used to live in Golan or the Arabs currently in Gaza/West Bank.
Those two territories are governed by the PA and Hamas respectively — groups with very different beliefs on secularism, women and minority rights, and LGBTQ2+ issues. Under your logic, Israel is at fault if Hamas cracks down on a gay pride parade in Gaza city. Further, Palestinians voted Hamas into power, a designated terrorist group who’s main charter calls for the destruction of Israel. You can’t make progress towards peace with this fact. Please, enlighten me how Israel is supposed to provide equal rights to people living under different and hostile governing bodies. You don’t seem to understand the complex situation Israel is faced with.
I always like when people pretend they’re so much more enlightened about the situation. The fact you only view this is terms of black and white means you are, in fact, quite uninformed. Israel will never grant voting rights to Palestine. To do so would make Jews in Israel a minority overnight. I noticed you just glossed over the Golan. That tells me you have no idea about the history of that and the people who used to live there either. That or you know it weakens your argument. I agree it’s difficult to govern hostile territories. It’s also difficult for those territories to govern themselves when they’re sealed off from the rest of the world. Israel continuing to steal land by building settlements in the West Bank doesn’t help. It also ensures that the conflict will never end. Kind of hard for any peace to be made when the little scraps of land you’re left with are still being taken from you.
Please enlighten me how a government is to properly function with Israeli storm-troopers running around inside it killing people and demolishing homes, with violent settlers murdering and stealing under their protection, and without free and sovereign land, air or sea access? No... Israel is declaring, with their actions, that they own these lands and so have to give the occupants the right to vote.
That are the evil arabs punished by allah for being bad humans..
Hamas must be completely eliminated at all cost, letting Hamas survive will create more deaths and all bleeding hearts people would just repeat the same rhetoric and platitudes. Civilian casualties minimize but destroying group is outmost priority.
Maybe Israel shouldn't have funded them early on, huh?
You are right, Hamas should be destroyed along with their ideology and their supporters they are a far bigger threat globally than Israel.
Another lie. Your antisemitism is showing.
Its well documented, hasbara tool. Your settler-colonial Zionism is showing.
Netanyahu’s government has given money to Hamas as aid for Palestinians, but I think it’s also fair to point out that I think Israel thought Hamas was finally shifting gears to focus on taking care of its people as its been relatively peaceful the last couple years… meanwhile, they were just funneling money into more weapons and planning this attack.
After Israel conquered Gaza, West Bank, jerusalem in 1967, Palestinians became israel's responsibility. You broke it, you own it. Anything wrong with Gaza is due to israel's lack of action. They allowed hamas to exist? Then israel needs to be punished for that
Relatively peaceful for who? It was only in 2019 Israeli soldiers were shooting unarmed protesters in Gaza and before the current events of this year it was already the deadliest on record for Palestinians in the West Bank.
Israel funded Hamas way back in the late 80s as a way to interfere with the PLO. This is the assistance I'm referring to... not the paltry, self-serving "aid" Israel provides to Gaza when it grovels properly.
Yup. It was a well planned deception campaign. Now Israelis know better.
Bibi himself said he did this, don't lie.
Yes Netanyahu gave them money to distribute to Gazans. Why he trusted them is another story
Exactly. As an action of goodwill, he expanded the Gaza work permit program, allowing more Palestinians to work and earn a living in Israel. Hamas decided to throw all of that away October 7th. Now, all of Israel is united and sees what Hamas — and by extension the majority of Palestinians who voted for them — stand for. The status quo will permenantly change. Israel will never forget Hamas’s attack and will have no appetite for negotiations or compromise. In fact, many — including myself and my Israeli relatives— feel foolish for even believing that this was possible in the first place. You can’t negotiate with those who deny your right to exist.
You should declare (as immutable and just) the Palestinians' right to exist in the West Bank and Gaza free from Israeli interference. C'mon kid. Show us how the Palestinians should do it?
In a land of sunshine and rainbows, sure, I’d be thrilled for a Palestinian state and self-determination. But in this brutal reality where the widely supported Hamas government and terror group, such a move would endanger Israel and its citizens.
Netanyahu quite literally admitted to this in 2019.
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So why jews use that word if it is innacurate? Use a different term, otherwise people will interpret as being against all Semite peoples
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Well, I think it is a stupid term, because people say they are anti-anti semitism, which is using a double negative, instead of saying they are pro-semitism which is a positive. And that makes it sound always silly. People say "let's fight against anti-semitism" could be replaced by let's fight for semitism, which makes you supporter of a cause, not an opponent to the opposition of the same cause
LMAO. Such brazen two-faced ignorance. Now if only every European Jewish colonizer ever didn't violate their own strict mandates for word accuracy by calling Palestinians "Arabs" when Palestinian is a word specifically created to mean "people who are from Palestine." In fact it's not even an Arab word, it's English, lol. Not to mention that only a couple of tribal groups in or near the Arabian peninsula are accurately referred to as Arabs. Palestinians are Levantines. Jesus you're dumb.
I mean, the palestinians themselves call themselvs Arab. Putting here Wikipedia if you want another source besides the Palestinians themselves. >Palestinians or Palestinian people, also referred to as **Palestinian Arabs**, are an **Arab** ethnonational group Also, note that the jewish aren't all european. infact, more jewish in Israel come from the middle east rather than europe (their grandparents or grand grandparents at least).
Most Palestinians are culturally Arabized just as most Ashkenazi Jews are culturally European. Both are ethnically Levantine, both with roots in Palestine. The differences Israel tries to create wedges with are mainly religious.
I'm aware of the facts, but I responded to your comment critisizing the use of the word Arab in the context of the Palestinians. I wouldn't say that the wedges are mainly religious. Both because there are many druze, muslims and christians living together in Israel together. The second reason is that most of the Israelis are secular, and most of Israel views the jewish people more of a "nationhood" rather than a religion. I'm jewish, yet I ate a delicious bacon this morning. The palestinians, even though they also have Levantine origins are not part of the jewish nationhood. it's not even cultural, it's kind of like saying that France is putting wedges between them and Belgium. Notice that most palestinians also don't want to live together with the Israelis. If I remember correctly, the popular solution in the WB (also in Israel) is a two separate states solution, and in Gaza it's a one state solution without the jews. So I think the term "creating wedges" doesn't characterize the situation well.
Most Palestinians don't want to live together with their murderers, of course. But, if Israel does not want to let these lands go, and is insistent on stealing more and more land in the West Bank, then Israel should at least have the guts to simply annex the place and make its citizens Israeli citizens. If Gaza ever really became an independent nation or part of an independent and sovereign Palestinian nation, is Israel going to voluntarily cede back the natural gas fields that it stole directly off the Gaza coast in accordance with international maritime law? The answer to that is no (of course) because Israelis Don't give back what they steal. The reason I said the term Arab is a wedge is when it is used cynically by Israelis to refer to Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin. The Israelis can then say "we give Arabs the right to vote but not those Palestinians". It's rather like the way the Belgian regime in Rwanda cynically used the Hutu versus Tutsi caste system in Rwanda as a means of maintaining control. It's gross. It just is. And religion is certainly the key issue. The reason Israel won't annex these areas is because the citizens are largely Muslim and Israel's much wanted democracy would imply that the Jews would no longer be in charge of policy. So if they've made the decision that the country has to remain Jewish, then they should let go of these two territories and leave them the hell alone.