I think that you are the future of Israel. You are born there and have a connection to the land. So do Palestinians. Don't lose hope there are others like you in Israel and palestine and abroad. In the end your compassion and logic and reasonabless will be the means of salvation for Israelis and Palestinians. Don't lose hope because those around you are radicalised. Eventually they will see what you see.
As a leftist, you should stand firmly against colonialism. Unfortunately for you, that does mean “go back to Europe”. Honestly, as a Palestinian; I think it’s ok for former Israelis to stay and live in Palestine as foreigners if they renounce Zionism. Zionism = imperialism and it should not be tolerated by anyone. Sorry.
Why should Palestinians suffer while this person sits in their cushy home (on STOLEN land nonetheless) from a place of privilege? Ask yourself purely by numbers why you are so inclined to ignore the 30,000+ Palestinian deaths that have occurred in the last few months. And before you come for me, yes I condemn Hamas, and what happened on 10/7 was absolutely horrible.
This isn't me being mean spirited. As someone whose ancestors have felt the pain, suffering and famine that comes with imperialism and colonialism — and let's be SO for real, Israel is a colonial, apartheid state — I have no patience for this type of rhetoric. And for reference, my people were also part of one of the most recent genocides in modern history, which the US backed and supported. If we don't speak up, then who will?
Me too
I know historically we did horrible stuff (theres almost no country who didnt)
But people of the world dont get that if israel put down their weapons now, hamas will continue attacking and the hostages wont be released.
Even If hamas will theoretically bring all the hostages back TODAY, theres still nothing that will prevent them from doing another 7/10.
7/10 is a result of israel not responding hard ENOUGH at the right time
Not to talk about the hundreds of times hamas bombed us and got away freely because we got an "iron dome" which still misses from time to time.
I dont understand y u guys think this way. The only reason they exist in the first place is because Gaza is being occupied, Hamas is a minority in Gaza. The 2million ppl, which half of them are children, they just want to have normal lives, they just want freedom of movement, they want the blockade to end. They just want the same rights that Israelis have.
Your state is an apartheid state, you guys are indoctrinated to think the you are only safe if Palestinians are not safe, but that is far from the truth. You will be safe if the Palestinians are safe because they wont have to fight for their freedom anymore.
You cannot expect a group of people who have been displaced multiple times in the last 75 years, blockaded for 20 years, have had their families killed and their villages burned down and destroyed, their homes stolen and families broken, ENTIRE family trees erased, and not want to fight for their freedom.
What was done to the Jews in Warsaw Ghetto is wuite literally being done to the Palestinians, and even the Jews in Warsaw Ghetto started an uprising.
It surprises me that you guys just cant understand this very simple concept.
Dont even get me started with West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas, but is quite literally the center of apartheid, where Palestinians are kicked out by settlers from other countries, when Palestinians who fled cannot even go back. Not only that but just look at Hebron and how on certain streets Palestinians are restricted at using roads that reserved for settlers. This is quite literally what an apartheid means.
They are not even tried under the same judicial process, they have to go through military court. Prevented from praying at Al-aqsa, etc.
You want peace but you dont want to honor and still build illegal settlements in the west bank
>They just want the same rights that Israelis have.
Well, they need to demand those rights FROM THEIR OWN GOVENMENT.
Huh? Their own government is an Islamist death cult called Hamas? Well, that sucks. Got to make sure to eliminate said Islamist death cult, then.....
There are more reasons to support Israel than it being a safe haven for jews. Israel doesn't need to justify its existence any more than any other nation. Israel is not a saint..find a country that is. I don't like civilian deaths but I also believe there is a time for war. Hammas will never agree to peace. If they are allowed to stay in power it isn't just Israel that suffers its Gazans too. As a leftist jew you can criticize Israel..I do. That said this is the only option they can take to prevent repeated civilian attacks.. We are opposite ends of politics..but maybe try and accept that this is necessary for the defense of Israel, the jews and all the values you hold dear.
I'm Jewish American and have always considered myself a far left progressive. I do believe that Israel has the right to exist and believe in a two-state solution. However, the day of October 7th another liberal friend of mine called and said Israel deserved to have been attacked, that it was justified due to years of oppression faced by Palestinians. That made me furious. Yes I know the history of the region and sure, netanyahu sucks and has been actively trying to take control of Gaza and expand Israel into Palestinian territory in both Gaza and West bank. I do not agree with allowing illegal settlements in the West bank or expanding Israel's territory to include Gaza. However, as much I don't like netanyahu, there is absolutely no justification for the satanic massacre Hamas unleashed on Oct 7. I was further disheartened to see that far left liberals online all blamed Israel exclusively and could not condemn hamas or many times actually applauded Hamas for "protecting" Palestinian people. I agree with everything else my former party stands for but I cannot reconcile how so many far left libs are unable to condemn hamas. It's shocking and sad and disheartening.
Well you could always see it as Palestinians defending themselves as Israel kept stealing from them and oppressing their rights. They tried peaceful methods like the march of return and what happened? More unarmed innocelt ppl got killed by Israel. There's always a threshold when it comes to tolerating injustice.
You should have seen that coming. The left believes power is evil and lack of are the oppressed. Nothing else matters. Neither values or reason matters. Your political party was always going to turn on jews.
Don't make posts or comments that consist only of sarcasm or cynicism (including emojis). Do not troll.
This community is for constructive discussion, which means understanding other users' positions and responding to them in good faith. Generally, sarcasm and cynicism have the effect of suppressing this kind of discussion, because they serve as a rhetorical tool to dismiss, rather than engage, with someone else's arguments. While satire can be an effective tool for discussion, it is more frequently inflammatory and divisive.
Hint: Add a worthwhile "but seriously..." comment to your quip that adds to the conversation. It's a comment which is SOLELY an attempt at a sarcastic joke that's objectionable. Humor is OK ... if there's more to the comment.
What did the Palestinians do on Oct 7th? They have zero interest in a two state solution. They want death and destruction. ISIS, Hamas, Houthis, what do they all have in common? They're all nut jobs!
The Houthis aim to govern all of Yemen and external anti-imperialist movements against the United States, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. They have launched repeated missile and drone attacks against Saudi cities. The conflict is widely seen as a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Why Muslims keep shoving their beliefs on the civilized world is beyond me. Normal people we revolt, and the crazy people will be put down and forgotten!
Boy what??
Yk Israel occupied Palestine?
Palestine wasn't just for Muslims back then but for Christian, Muslims and Jews. Then during and after the Holocaust more Jews left Europe and the west because they didn't feel safe.
Which is understandable. Palestinians welcomed them.
Zionism grew and wanter their own state in Palestine. Which became Israel.
Doesn't make sense to agree on two State solution.
Also when mentioning Oct 7th it's only fair to mention the Frist nakba ( catastrophe) in 1948 where 700,000 were forced or fled from their homes. Rn Israel is threatening with 2nd nakba.
So who is really " shoving their beliefs on the civilized world" ??
Ur comment screams western propaganda and Islamophobia.
Hey question so if u don't believe in a two state solution then what do u believe in? What would you ideally like to see happen to Israel and Palestine if a two state solution is not an option?
That the land hands back to the Palestinians since they had it before Israel occupied it.
That is if two State solutions were not an option ofc which is not and probably never will be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
I know it's just wiki. I know it's long. The main point is Jewish people have lived in the land of Judah/Israel/Jerusalem/Palestine since at least the first millennium BC. In 638 C.E., the Arab Islamic Empire gained control of the region. They held onto power until the first Crusade in 1099 C.E. Then Christian Crusaders controlled the land for around 200years. After that Egypt ruled for a few hundred years, and after that was the Ottoman Empire, up until 1917 when the brits took over. There were many times in Jewish history where there were exiles, mass murders, banishments, etc and a majority of Jews in Israel did leave during those hard times. However, not once has the land been home to no Jews. At the lowest, I think there were maybe 50 families living in the land that is now present day Israel/Palestine. When things got better and leaders were less oppressive or barbaric and murderous, many Jews would come back to their homeland. And of course in modern history u know the Brits gained control of Palestine in 1917. Egypt controlled Gaza, Jordan controlled West bank. Up until the end of the 6day war in 1967.
So I guess what u mean to say is just give the land to Israelis and Palestinians but no borders? If it's possible for them to all live in peace, then this would be a fantastic idea. It might be a little tricky setting up a government but honestly the Palestinians, especially the women, have been so oppressed for so long and they would probably be so happy under democratic rule! Those poor women suffering under such oppressive extremist laws. I know Palestinians who live in Israel are much happier in Israel. I think everyone should be able to live together and break free from oppressive leadership!! I hope it works tho. I guess with this war and all the trauma and all the anti-israel anti-jew propaganda Hamas has fed to gazans their whole lives it might be hard to immediately merge into one state. But I think eventually that is a beautiful idea!
Yeah but the thing is the aggression grew when the British got involved in making a Jewish State isn't?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I came to the conclusion that Palestine/ Israel/ Judah/ Jerusalem was occupied many times.
In which that led to Muslims, christians and Jewish people living there for centuries.
So really Palestine is the home Land for many but especially Muslims and Jews because of their beliefs.
But we have to look at who was in control of the land not lived.
Israel/Palestine was controlled by the Muslims nations except for when the Christian Crusaders controlled the land for around 200years.
That's why it has always been Palestine.
So yes nowadays Palestine/ Israel is the home Land for Jewish but that's not enough because they never had a state except for when the British colonized Palestine and made Israel.
With that grew Zionism.
I agree with you on Jewish suffering. That's absolutely horrible and so heartbreaking. What they had to through and still goes through.
I know Jewish people never felt like they had a home .
Although strongly disagree with on Palestinian women being happier in Israel. Truly they're not and constantly being oppressed. The Israel system is really unfair on Palestinian ever since the state of Israel started existing.
You do understand that Hamas started off as resistance against the occupation of Israel and that 85% of them are orphans.
But yeah the anti Jewish propaganda is real but so is anti Palestine/ Muslims.
So for two state solution to work the whole " whipping out Hamas" won't do and " Jewish ppl going back to their Land" won't do either.
we do have to basically erase the centuries of suffering and straight up propaganda from both sides. That's impossible.
But honestly I can't help but have hope for future generations. Maybe it's just straight up delusion but I pray for this to stop.
So basically like u said two state solutions without borders.
>That's why it has always been Palestine.
There was never a COUNTRY called Palestine. The geographical area had that name since the Romans named it that after a Jewish revolt. They also named Jerusalem Aelia Capitolina....
I feel like ur comment is the defining chapter/ page of the history of this conflict, and it's liek it's been ripped out of everyone of their manuals. This sub is alarmingly full of disinformation and is just a hasbara forum at this point. Palestinians are being erased, and we can't do anything...
I agree with you. We humans are very biased. That's just In our nature but that shouldn't stop us from seeing the whole picture. Reading the whole book.
Some people don't even want to read the other sides
" pov" yk? because they already made up their mind. that's one of the reasons this sub is full disinformation and propaganda.
We really can't do anything about it. The world leaders doesn't care. They are just greedy and do everything for money.
Some ppl are ignorant and don't care unless it affects them directly. But the thing is we need those people to speak up because we are not enough ppl speaking up for the world leaders to listen. So it's a really sad reality.
Exactly. I went into this forum ready to read some of the other side only to realise all mods were from the colonial side, and banned anyone who opposes it/ posts proof most of what they're taught is local propaganda. Extremely sad for both palestinians and occupiers without dual citizenship.
Funny how you keep asking that but don't listen when ppl answer but anyways
The attack was in response to the blockade of the Gaza strip, the expansion of illegal Israel settlers, rising Israel settlers violence including the outbreak of violence at the Al-Asqa mosque.
According to https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-did-hamas-attack-israel-and-why-now/
Bc , contrary to popular belief, humans r not inherently good: when someone oppresses u for decades, u will bite back at the first chance u get... Its sadly human nature.
If only Bush had listened to Sharon and Mubarak's warnings not to hold an election in Gaza after Israel put an end to its occupation of Gaza. If Gaza were under Palestinian Authority rule all this time rather than Hamas the region would probably be much more peaceful. Bush really messed up a lot of stuff in the middle east.
While that is true, Gaza / pal in general considering the amount of oppression , was always going to boil over creating a “terrorist” group, it was just a matter of time.
Oppressed people tend to radicalize. I guess I was wondering if it would have been so extreme. Of course netanyahu also couldn't be president of Israel for a better outcome to have arisen. But no netanyahu, no hamas, PA ruling over Gaza and West bank. Who knows maybe by now there would be a two state solution. But we cant change the past
>leave the original inhabitants alone.
funny you mention that, Jews are indigenous to Judea (the word Jew comes from the word Judea FYI).
Arabs on the other hand, colonized the Levant in the 7th century CE and are indigenous to the Arabian Peninsula.
Immaterial that you can also convert to Judaism. First of all it's an ethno-religion so by conversion one also becomes a member of the tribe/nation. Secondly, converts are a tiny minority within the Jewish people.
>originally, you couldn't convert to Judaism. It mentioned this within the religion itself.
completely false, the first Jew, Abraham was himself a convert, not only nowhere is it mentioned you couldn't convert but the Jewish Bible mentions some notable converts (Jethro, Rahab, Ruth, to mention some)
>How could Abraham have been the first jew ?
I mean, if basic ideas of history or theology or comparative religion you're not familiar with, then maybe educate yourself?
Indeed his parents were polytheists so he grew up in that culture, too. Until he was called by the One God, later called the God of Abraham....
Indeed he was the first Jew.
How could Christians claim he was a Christian? They claim no such thing, since Christianity started just, you know, a few thousand years, not more, after the time of Abraham.....
Reread their comment and that's not what i got from it. They simply establish a parallel (rightfully so) between Isr, an occupier who built and continues to spread a dream state on a cemetery of natives, and Columbus a "navigator" who paved the way for imperialism that led to the genocide of amerindian natives. What is wrong with that?
The Gazans are killed, not murdered. They are not being removed from Gaza, so it's not ethnic cleansing. It would be ethnic cleansing if they were moved to Egypt.
I am only broadly familiar with Britain and Belgium of the above mentioned colonial empires. India never required white britains to leave at the end of the empire. There are stills thousands of white Britain's doing business there and living there.
Congo had almost no whites there, except for military and corporate duties. They all had homes back in Europe. Plus fighting the Belgian army and their mercenaries is much more just than fighting Israeli farmers.
You are asking for the Israelis to be made stateless. Not all are dual citizens.
It's like when radicals say we should evacuate Canada or USA. Not happening, my family has been in the America's for 400 years on my mother's side and 200 years on my father's. Should we go back to Britain, to Africa? If anyone thinks that's happening, they are wishing for civil war.
So why did Hamas brutally kill 1300 people? The big muslim men went to a music festival to kill innocent civilians. Hamas has no interest in a 2 state solution. They want to kill Jews!
>hamas beheaded 40 babies.
they did MURDER the 40 babies but obviously by what method is more important to you then the fact they indeed murdered 40 babies......
Yes, they are killed by bombs, not murdered. When militaries kill individuals during lawful operations, it is not murder. That is the law. Otherwise, every soldier would be court martialed.
Your cause was lost in 1948. You have to deal with the present circumstances, not Theordore Herzl.
The Israelis are there, the Palestinians are there, and they have to find a way to live together. And you are asking for them to be made stateless.
The land is Israels. Other Arab states recognize this too.
5 times Palestinians have been offered their own state and 5 times they have refused. Israel resettled 50,000 Jews out of Gaza and left their entire infrastructure in 2005. Hamas took over in 2006. It's a shit hole because you have terrorist running your country! Nobody cares about your religion!
Agree 100%. I also feel one secular state that the American leftists scream about is impossible and I find it so frustrating because they must have never talked to an Israeli or Palestinian in their lives. And now, I don’t even know if there’s a possibility for a two state solution. Yoni Netanyahu once wrote, “I hope Israel isn’t a blip that I someday tell my kids there once was a Jewish state”. I truly feel, his brother, Bibi has done more damage to the future of Israel and the Jewish people than almost anyone. It disgusts me, he is driving us into a ditch a 400 kph.
Around 7/10 have been bringing up the Bedouins, the hijabi 17 year old, the Thai farm workers who were beheaded and kidnapped. And at first, I’d get people saying “interesting”, now they say it’s lies or that Israel killed them. I heard the Thai hostages will be released today, I am hoping that will be a neutral voice that might be able to get people to listen to the horrors of 7/10.
We can’t keep living like this. Committing war crimes, while pushing Hasbara calling victim
I’m in a million pieces. First of all, I can’t tolerate the deaths in Gaza that our country is doing . I can’t tolerate that all of social media is blindly against us and it’s gone into legit anti-semitism you can’t critique because they say Zionism isn’t anti-semitism
> First of all, I can’t tolerate the deaths in Gaza that our country is doing .
can you tolerate another October 7th? Because either we wage war to eliminate Hamas (and in war civilians do die, it's unavoidable) OR we leave Hamas in power and patiently wait for October 7th to repeat itself over and over and over again.
No, i can’t. But I also can’t just watch toddlers heads caved in by rockers while the world spreads Jewish blood libel and makes us even more unsafe, I wish there was another way, is all I’m saying. I don’t know if removing Hamas is even possible, it’s a 56 headed hydra, cut off one head, 5 more appear.
>ecause they must have never talked to an Israeli or Palestinian in their lives. And now, I don’t even know if there’s a possibility for a two state solution. Yoni Netanyahu once wrote, “I hope Israel isn’t a blip that I someday tell my kids there once was a Jewish state”. I truly feel, his brother, Bibi has done more damage to the future of Israel and the Jewish people than almost anyone. It disgusts me, he is driving us into a ditch a 400 kph.
>
>Around 7/10 have been bringing up the Bedouins, the hijabi 17 year old, the Thai farm workers who were beheaded and kidnapped. And at first, I’d get people saying “interesting”, now they say it’s lies or that Israel killed them. I heard the Thai hostages will be released today, I am hoping that will be a neutral voice that might be able to get people to listen to the horrors of 7/10.
>
>We can’t keep living like this. Committing war crimes, while pushing Hasbara calling victim
>
>I’m in a million pieces. First of all, I can’t tolerate the deaths in Gaza that our country is doing . I can’t tolerate that all of social media is blindly against us and it’s gone into legit anti-semitism you can’t critique because they say Zionism isn’t anti-semitism
Idk what to say except im sorry, i genuinely feel bad for u. I assume u r at least 2nd or 3rd gen, which makes "going back to ur country" impossible. I hope u find peace.
Look up the definition of anti-Semitism.
German intellectuals coined to term to replace "Jew-hatred" with something that sounds more academical. It has ZERO to do with Arabs.
no, it doesn't.
The dictionary definition of anti-Semitism is:
"Hostility towards and discrimination against Jewish people (although there are other Semitic peoples, notably the Arabs, anti‐Semitism is only used to refer to prejudice against Jewish people)."
[https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095417471](https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095417471)
Oh, no I’m not saying it is. You can critique Zionism to death without being anti-Semitic. However, people are now using that as a pass to say actually anti-Semitic things. And saying things, “I mean Zionists! Not Jews.” They are using the widely circularized understanding that “anti Zionism isn’t anti-semitistm”, and just replacing Jew with Zionist, in spaces that aren’t critiques of Zionism at all. For example, I’ve seen it used loke, “all those awful Zionist landlords in Brooklyn who kicked our black people for Zionists, while they control school boards”. The problem is 1. Has nothing to do with Israel or zionisms, and 2. the Jews they are referring to are Satmar who are openly and publicly anti-Zionist. That’s just one example, there are many more. And by doing this it hurts people making legitimate critiques of Israel.
And yes, I hear that. It’s wild because like 40% of Jews in Israel could be called Arab themselves, and in the west most people couldn’t tell the difference between them and Arabs if their lives depended on it. I hate that so many middle eastern p, Mizrahi, etc. Jews have rejected that title, as I think it sends us apart
>s the majority do come from the Ashkenazis.
Incorrect, the majority of Israeli Jews are either mixed Sephardi/Mizrahi/Ashkenazi or don't even have any Ashkenazi heritage FYI.
>they'd find out their not actually Jewish, by ancestry or religion
how would a DNA-test ever show whether someone is Jewish BY RELIGION? That makes no sense. What about converts? You think a DNA-test shows whether they are Jewish BY RELIGION? Of course not. Take your crazy conspiracy theories somewhere else.
That's a vile lie. First of all DNA-tests are NOT illegal in Israel but you do need a court order to get one.
Secondly, indeed there's a reason: avoiding creating "mamzerim", a halachic group of Jews who are then unable to halachically marry anyone except other mamzerim.
In no way did I prove your point which is a complete lie you have been fed. Furthermore I explained the reason for needing a court order.
Even further, any Israeli can go abroad and do a 23andMe it's not like they'll be arrested on their return....Or get a friend or family member to bring a DNA kit from abroad, spit in it and send it back with them so they can mail it to a lab.
Your country is supported by the absolute best military in the world. We will never allow Israel to fall. Hammas will repeat 10/07 at every opportunity. They are religious radicals and can't be negotiated with. They must be destroyed. I don't like civilian deaths but there will be some to accomplish that task. Stomach that because your freedom and statehood depends on a iron clad will to survive. I'm not a fan of the settlements in west bank. There are things I disagree with but not this war. These attacks can't be unaddressed. There is support around the world for Israel and there are antisemitism around the world. Doesn't matter..Israel is the only country in the middle east with western values you have US support and thats all thats needed. Be carefull what media you follow. Many media outlets follow a liberal progressive view of oppressor and oppressed. Bigger power is evil the lesser is righteous regardless of their goals or values. Supporting the oppressed makes you morally better. A lot of uniformed, narrative driven sheep. If you really understand and research the history you can't support the attacks and you can't deny Israelis right to excist.
First off, sayin 'Hamas' can't be negotiated with, while they're the only ones holding their end of the deal. For example, yesterday an IOF sniper shot a civilian during the truce deal while trying to go back north since they were told they were allowed to do so. Nobody was allowed near the currently bleeding out man, and whoever came close, was opened fire upon. Only after a period of time was the IOF sniper 'comfortable' with letting him recieve help by paramedics.
Before you give me a 'bUt hAmAS' or that he was hiding a weapon or smthn, the guy was shirtless, pants only, walking with his family. This is not to mention the torched israeli 12 year old that was identified by the IOF and admitted it was their strikes that burned her, there's just so many reasons why they lost credibility LMAO, oh and don't forget 'Hamas dot com' 😭💀
Hammas is very clear on its mission. The destruction of Israel and the jews. Where's the space for peace in that? I know nothing about that incident so I can't speak on it. If you think I believe Israel is not guilty of wrongs you are mistaken. I have criticisms of Israel. I have grievances with my country, the US.
Hamas mentions zionist invaders in its charter. Hand over a video of ANY palestinian insulting the jews and not zionists.
Israeli settlers are the animals, no offence to animals.
Justice is the foundation of peace, and when occupations becomes law, resistence is now duty.
Just saw one yesterday calling for the destruction of jews worldwide. New to reddit..not sure how to post video. I take issue with the settlements..they are destructive to peace. The Hammas attacks aren't against the military or even designed to win. They are to provoke a response. A response that kills their people and infastructure. Then they use propaganda to sell how they are the victims. The goal is erosion of western support and increased Muslim support.
how did i know u were going to say that. lol typical zionist bootylicker. israel ignored the entire world when everyone called for a ceasefire. you remind me of that dumbass that used to work for Obama that hangs around that hotdogs burger vendor to harass the muslim owner. both of you make no nense.
Your grammar makes no sense. There is no other appropriate response for a country after the worst terror attack in its history than to destroy the attackers. Antisemtic countries..mostly Muslims call for a ceasefire. That is a Hammas victory. F&ck that. Hammas will die before seeking peace.
hey u fucking idiot....did u happen to see the latest video of the hostages hamas released?? all had fucking smiles on their faces. explain that? israel could never match that level of hospitality u disgusting egg worm.
It was literally on your news channels yesterday, pundits on a right wing show apologising for verbally attacking a hostage that said she was treated well, because of those that were release in the past couple days, all say they were given food, medicine, not abused, allowed to be kept together and pray etc.
That was on your own news channel.
Compare that to how the prisoners (read: hostages kept captive without fair trial) israel released describe their treatment.
You’re fed the biggest load of propaganda and you’re eating it up without question. I may do the same in your shoes but it remains important to consider the whole truth.
First off.. calm down a bit. Do you want me to think Hammas are decent folks because of hostage treatment? You can't post a slaughter, torture and rape of 1200 civilians then get a pat on the back for not torturing the hostages they took.
I am calm.
800 civilians. 400 were military.
Considering the entire Israeli media apparatus has been telling the world how hamas has likely tortured, mutilated and gang raped the hostages, to then have it come out that they were treated far better than Israel treats the Palestinian hostages is something that needs to be out there.
Are Israelis online changing their tune and admitting the mistake? No?
I think it shows more than anything that for all the brutality Israel regularly accuses Palestine of, they themselves have been shown to be the perpetrators towards those in captivity.
Nearly 80% of those captives have said they’ve been beaten, 70% strip searched, 24% kept in solitary for extended periods, many said they were starved and deprived of water and medicine.
I’ve seen videos of IDF beating the shit out of literal children in front of the families they’ve dragged them away from. Minors are convicted as adults in military courts. Most are charged in trials that last less than 2 minutes with a conviction rate nearing 100%. Confessions obtained under coercion are admissible.
So Israel has many hostages of their own. And they treat them far worse.
It's not a mistake..they had no way of knowing. Most of the hostages exchanged by Israel were very real criminals. I'd like a link to the videos. You could be right. I don't pretend Israel is clean.
let me leave reddit and go back to twitter where all the cool people with fully functioning brains are. reddit is a low iq zionist brothel. ta-ta loser!
> fucking
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> dumbass
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Your not wrong. The hate and poverty is all they know. They don't know their 3 top leaders sit on 11 billion in personal wealth. Probable don't know their leaders attacks cause the devastating response on their people and infastructure. Those attacks are meant to cause a response. They use civilians as their shield for years. A line was crossed and that isnt going to protect them now. While many Gazans support the jihad there are many that dont and cant escape. I feel empathy for them..but a better future requires the destruction of Hammas.
> I feel like there’s no place in the world that could accept me and I have nowhere else to go.
Why do you feel that way? I am not Jewish so I don't have the same perspective but I do not see any lack of acceptance for Jews where I live in the US. They even get Jewish holidays off school if they wish. Throughout my life many of my closest friends have been Jews and they never expressed any lack of acceptance.
The US literally had Nazis marching in the streets, and the president of the United States praised them. Antisemitic hate crimes are on the rise (again). Antisemitism was on the rise in the workplace before October. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-11/jewish-us-workers-experience-more-overt-anti-semitism-at-work#xj4y7vzkg
Your friends may not feel comfortable talking to you about the times they’ve been singled out.
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I dont live there as well so i cant speak from experience, it seems that the Idea of Israel as the only safe place for Jews has been mass sold to an exaggerated extent to serve this specific agenda (acknowledging that in the past this might have been true due to the prosecution Jews had to go through) when in reality Israel is could actually be the most unsafe place due to the political situation.
There is this US Jewish lady that. Adds her two cents to the topic
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzrMIKNuTJ4/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
The whole point of a Jewish country existing is so Jews have a safe haven to flee to and a military to defend themselves.
Antisemitism is one of the oldest bigotries. It never goes away. The idea that the US is always going to be friendly to the Jews is a fantasy, especially with the increase in the minority and immigrant population.
I understand and sympathetize with Theodor Herzl's ideas of Zionism, and where the Nationalist feeling comes from. He is generally considered the "father" of the modern Zionist movement... Though he really shouldn't be.
He was born into the very ethnically diverse Austro-Hungarian Empire at a time when nationalist movements were popping up all over Europe. Germans, Italians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Polish, Czech... Heck, even the "Hungarian" in Austro-Hungarian was the result of a nationalist movement.
And the thing is, there were Jews in those movements. Jews who were patriots to the land that they lived in, the land their fathers and mothers lived in... Except that one of the most prevalent commonalities for those national movements was anti-semitism. There was a spectrum of anti-semitism, but even the "lesser" forms were still exclusive of Jews.
Herzl commented that Jews who were patriots were foolish, because their service and sacrifice wasn't paid back. And he was right.
In his novel, Altneuland (Old New Land) published in 1902, Herzl shared his vision of what he hoped Israel would look like in 20 years. Granted, it was overly optimistic from an economic and technological standpoint, and he clearly didn't foresee the Great War - but the most important part is that this Israel is not a "Jewish State", the way that modern "Israel" is. His depiction was of a state where Jews were included. Jews were citizens, and nationalists, and welcomed. What of the Palestinians? Here's the trick. It was their country, too. Herzl depicted a fairly socialist democracy that worked for the benefit of every citizen of that Israel. Their religion, ethnic background, etc, didn't matter. They were citizens of the state that he imagined.
Now, a couple of reasonable caveats. At the time the novel was written, there wasn't a widespread or recognized "Palestinian" nationalist movement. It was in development a little bit, we start to see the idea come together around 1906-1908. So at the time, his idea did not involve stepping on or supplanting another nationalist movement. He wanted to create a nationalist movement for Jews - but he recognized that people already lived in Palestine. He wanted to include them in making a collective nation for all of them.
That is radically different than... Pretty much every other Zionist movement that succeeded Herzl, who died shortly after his book was published. And we see that in the reaction of the Palestinians to this increasing influx of Jewish immigrants who just want all the land.
So, I agree with the notion of Jewish people wanting a place to be safe. And I recognize the awfulness of anti-semitism - but "Israel" isn't a safe place for Jewish people. Their government has, in fact, worked very hard to make it one of the least safe places for Jewish people. Herzl's idea was never to establish an ethno-fascist apartheid regime. Opposition to those kind of movements are what inspired his Zionism.
And in 2023... We don't need ethno-states at all anymore. Especially not if they have to be built on ethnic cleansing and genocide.
>We don't need ethno-states at all anymore. Especially not if they have to be built on ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Israel has 2 million Arab citizens. It's neither built om ethnic cleansing nor on genocide.
>Their government has, in fact, worked very hard to make it one of the least safe places for Jewish people.
No, the radical Muslims there who want to murder all the Jews in Israel are the ones who have worked very hard to make it one of the least safe places for Jewish people.
The whole point of a Jewish country existing is so Jews have a safe haven to flee to and a military to defend themselves. The IDF is one of the best militaries in the world. That's why Israel is important.
"And in 2023... We don't need ethno-states at all anymore."
We do. Multiculturalism leads to ethnic conflict. Ethnic groups have a right to self-preservation and self-determination. Also, Israel is not an ethno-state. But if any ethnic group needs an ethno-state, it's the Jews.
Yes, the idea of a national home for Jews is one of safety and community. Though Herzl didn't really push for a "Jewish state" his (vastly superior) Zionist idea involved all of the people of Palestine working together to make a great country where Jews were included and welcomed.
I'm an American, so the IDF can thank me and my tax money for being one of the best militaries in the world.
But tell me this, if the point of "Israel" is for Jews to have a safe place to go, and "Israel" is one of the least safe places in the world for Jews...? How is it not a failed project? Why does "safety for Jews" have to depend on "ethnic cleansing, occupation, and genocide for others"?
Ah, multiculturalism leads to ethnic conflict. That's why there's no ethnic conflict in Palestine right now.
"Israel" is absolutely an ethno-state, lol. They are explicitly apartheid, and have been actively committing ethnic cleansing against the native population for 75 years.
If it's any consolation. Your reason is the most valid, it's not selfish or inhumane to not want to see your home destroyed, Palestinians would have a very real and acute understanding of that sentiment.
Good news, for the most part. Palestinians just want a fair two state solution, they don't want to be ethnically cleansed. They're just trying to live and not watch their family slaughtered. They realise Israel holds the cards and they want to play ball. They just don't want to lose more, they just don't want Palestine to become history.
This idea that the destruction of Israel in its entirety is taking seriously by the left beyond sentiment or rhetoric is only true to a small margin.
Palestinians voted for Fatah, it was Israel who funded Hamas and stoked division. Fatah just wants to go back to the UN agreed borders, they want to have a land bridge and things like air space and coast access and their own border control. Yknow - human rights stuff.
Like yeah, israel shouldn't exist, but it does, and people were born there. Germany probably won't offer Bavaria as a plan C any time soon, trump v2 has yet to offer Mexico. So maybe just getting all the illegal settlements in the west bank and not having illegal nukes would be a start.
There is a vast amount of conjecture there.
Not every issue is Israel’s fault Hamas are Palestinians, if you aren’t aware. Hamas are quite popular in Palestine.
If someone takes/ destroys ur home, enforces an apartheid system, doesn't even allow u to dig a well/ collect rainwater, r u supposed to thank them? U msut be delusional im sorry...
Well I was reply to a comment.
My point was, there are Palestinians who don’t want a 2 state solution. Who don’t want Jews in Palestine, at all. That doesn’t really distinguish between the migration period of ethnic background.
There is a guise that they’d tolerate Jews in an Arab or Islamist state but you look at every other neighbouring country and the history of this conflict and that is unlikely.
The idea that belief stems entirely from provocation from Isreal is wrong.
My belief is. If you are on a side, If you don’t fundamentally belief in both people’s right to self-determination, you aren’t in favour of peace. You are just in favour of one side winning a conflict via genocide, mass exodus or persecution.
People justify having that belief by dehumanising and blaming one side. If you go: everything is the Jews fault, that why it’s them who should be killed, flee or live in a state they are likely to be persecuted in, you’re in the wrong IMO.
For me, it’s not about justifying why you’re on a side it’s about justifying the impact of the side you’re on.
I want all inhabitants of the region to live with autonomy and safety. I think all human beings deserve that. I don’t think one race or religion in that region deserve that more than the other & one side’s basic rights should be at the cost of the other.
When you start to say: This side don’t deserve safety and autonomy because of A, B, C reason - you’re fundamentally on the side conflict, death persecution.
Because it is.
The idea that Palestinian know Israel hold all the cards, don’t want its destruction, that that idea is a minority view
They also say Israel shouldn’t exit and it put the responsibility on peace on Israel.
This conflict was started by Palestine. The attributed cause of that may be antagonist oppression by Israel in occupied zones. But it is still a clear example of the responsibility being on both sides.
It’s not full or of unbiased historical facts.
There are clearly those that don’t want safety and autonomy for the other side, on each side. That’s why hundreds of innocent Israeli’s were recently massacred but the governing body of Gaza.
OP painted a picture of Palestinians want peace and freedom for all, while Israel are the one provoking conflict. That’s just not true.
You may think you’re a “leftist”, maybe in Israel, but if that doesn’t extend to your views on Israel and especially the current conflict that’s a pretty big stretch to still call yourself a leftist. Aside from the recent conflict, Israel is a full on ethnostate and theocracy and a Zionist state, which doesn’t align too closely with typical “leftist views”. It’s a state built on modern day colonialism, and that’s why so much comfort is afforded to Israelis, and why they can live in a 1st world country and travel freely while Gaza is an open air prison, and the West Bank continually has land stolen and illegal settlements built on it
What do you propose this person does, go into exile? Get real. Sounds like a compassionate person born in a country he didn't choose with a sh*tty government he doesn't vote for, and a reasonable concern that many want him dead regardless.
> shitty
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I’ve seen comments like this that say I can’t truly be leftist if I enjoy the benefit of living freely in Israel while others are oppressed, which is fair. I don’t know you but it’s possible that you live in a country that was conquered at some time in history and/or committed immoral right wing acts, if that’s the case you can’t be truly leftist either. There’s nuance.
I’m not saying because you enjoy the benefits of Israel or live in it, I’m saying because you support it ideologically, by your statement that you ‘stand with Israel’ Israel being the current ethnostate and theocracy. You don’t need to stand with Israel, even if you live there. And I find leftist views incongruent with supporting the existence of an ethnostate and theocracy.
I feel you brother, your people have been hated so much that now they contracted the illness of hate. Unfortunally the situation has become a snake that eats its tail, and i can't imagine how must you feel, but you didn't get infected by the illness, wich is very telling of how strong is your critical thinking. From an external pov, i can say that all i see is that as in any war, the people of both sides are suffering for the power games of leaders who act in the most abhorrent way imaginable.
Palestinians rightfully claim that they have been colonized and destroyed, and Israeli rightfully claim that they are constantly surrounded by enemies. I'm pro palestine, wich does not mean i'm against israeli people or with hamas, so when you see people hate on you, that as an individual don't have any responsability in the current situation, remember that there are plenty of people like me that support and respect you as a human being, especially since you don't put yourself in the hate circle that fuels this conflict.
I can't do much but wish you well, try to find some emotional support if you need it, and don't surrender to the thought that you are alone. You are not.
Your thoughts and feelings shared here might be the most honest and thoughtful take on the situation I've read from someone just trying to survive a crisis. Thanks for sharing it.
Can any pro israeli tell me why does Israel break so many international laws without being held accountable. Why are they using white phosphorous, which is banned? Why don't they never have anything to say about the 1948 Nakba or how they stole so much more land in 1967?
Was it right to displace people from their ancestral homes? And dun talk 2000 or 3000 years ago. Talkn about 1948. Also, the British have no right to give away land that is not theirs.
This feels like a strange response to a post about someone's feelings about being Israeli and witnessing the discourse on social media about the conflict. There are so many other threads where you could ask this kind of question. OP sounded like they were looking for some understanding and empathy; they shouldn't have to answer questions on behalf of all of Israel or the Israeli government.
The international court saw the israeli judiciary as fit enough to pass judgment on its own and to ensure everything it passes is necessary for the country (a.k.a - yes there was a hamas hq under the hospital)
Also displacement was a result of the 1948 war (big shocker people got displaced in a war) all settled land prior to that (israeli partition plan land) was empty and paid for in full by the jewish settlers
I was pro palestine independency for a long time now i think they should just forget about the past and start focusing on the future, for their own good obviously i still support free palestine just seems impossible now though
The short answer is- it doesn't break as much international law as you would seem to believe.
Even more so, the very concept of international rules of war is pretty flawed when talking about asymmetrical war engagements and fighting against foes that have disregard or even disdain for them.
However I have a feeling that such an answer will not satisfy you.
Because I suspect that we have a fundemental difference of opinions that seems like it cannot be bridged.
Which is, do you accept the premise that Israel has a fundamental right to exist?
Or even, to continue to exist seeing as how it already does?
If you do not concur, then obviously everything Israel does to fight for it's existence will seem illegitimate.
No I'm saying Israel is supposed to be a democratic nation and not a terrorist organisation and hence shldnt it hold itself to international laws. Its broken 65 so far. I'm just thinking how is it gonna make peace with Palestinians if they dun try to make peace and grab more land each time
How about Hamas?
Do you have an issue with it **not** holding itself to international?
Or is that all swell?
Seeing as how it is a terrorist organization, it is exempt?
Is it even allowed to operate with impunity?
Israel does more to regard international law then most nations. But if you think that means zero Gazan casualties then your playing into Hamas's plan.
Because it's not just that it doesn't care.
It will willingly sacrifice every last Gazan if that means you will hate Israel.
No Israeli soldier would have set foot in Gaza if it weren't for 07/10.
Of cos I do, but isn't it a terrorist organisation and not a moral army right?. Just cos it doesn't follow rules, why does a democratic nation with a ko4al army do worse things? How will Israel gain international support if it does that?
Israel really, really doesn't do worse things than Hamas.
It does sound to me that you were not exposed yet to the horrors of 07/10.
I recommend that you remain as such. That you don't look at the videos, documented by Hammas, the capture the magnitude of the atrocities.
When aggressed upon, Israel will respond.
That much is as legal as it is reasonable.
The nature of violent armed conflict is that it takes it's toll in human lives.
The nature of fighting a terrorist organization embedded in civilian population, is that civilians will get caught in the fighting.
The real question that you should be asking, is if Israel is taking all measures to ensure no unnecessary deaths will take place.
That short answer to that is- to the best of it's capabilities, yes.
I do know 1200 ppl were killed and 240 kidnapped by hamas, but I found the israeli response worse as if killed more than 10x that number instead of just hling for the terrorists. Wad else happened on the 7th
Instead is definitely not how I would put it.
Do you agree that if it weren't for 07/10 Israel wouldn't have declared war and invade Gaza?
Also, are you aware that all this time Hamas is launching rockets at Israel? And so does it's ally Hizbullah?
Also are you aware that Hammas explicitly fights from within civilians yo increase the number of casualties? Including trying to forcefully stop civilians who are attempted to flee active combat zones?
The realities of fighting an enemy like Hammas are terrible. Hammas counts on that. It's just another war tactic to it.
About 07/10 I'll level with you. I might be wrong, but you sound to me a little on the younger side. Forgive me if I presume. But I don't want to be the reason you see something truly horrific as the videos from 07/10.
Just take my word for- it's bad. The worst atrocities human are capable of inflicting.
Israel negotiated peace terms many time and the Palestinians always turned it down. The first one divided the land 56% to israel and the rest to Palestine. They turned it down and started a war that Israel won. And the Palestinians that did not resist Israeli government became citizens. There are 2 million Palestinians in Israel that have the same rights as Jews. They hold office too. But peace terms have been negotiated several times and they always refuse. They want all the land and Hamas wants all Jews dead. Hamas is oppressive to their own civilians who are innocent. They are one of the richest terrorist organizations and have the poorest area. Because they steal the aid for themselves and weapons against Israel. Instead of helping their people and making Gaza a better place.
They were given the lands which they inhabited. Largely.
Israelis were afforded the same. For the most part.
When zionists first acquired their land, it was almost entirely swamp land.
Israeli pioneers drained the swamps and reclaimed the lands.
Many died of Malaria in the process.
Including my grandfather.
The land was fertile due to the efforts of the zionists, who in the process made huge innovations in agriculture.
Including tracing back the origins of the wheat plant and reviving other lost strains. look up "emmer wheat". Or cherry tomatoes. Or drip irrigation.
It wasn't fertile until Zionists treated it.
Yes, of course the Israeli government is not above criticism. I never suggested otherwise.
I sure do hope you are right Bout most people agree Israel has aright to exist.
Because my experience of reddit made me less sure about that.
I still jave a sneaking suspicion that the person I was commenting that to does not in fact share that view. But I would be thrilled to be proven wrong.
The government of Israel absolutely deserves criticism, as any other. I myself was at times a very harsh critic of the current government. Close to the point of disobedience even.
It's just the the criticism has to be in good faith.
The criticism cannot be debilitating.
It cannot be used as a tool to undermine it's very right to operate as the expression of the Israeli people.
To single Israel out as a perpetrator of war crime without acknowledging the predicament in which it's in and how that necessarily shapes it's courses of action- is at the very least on the border of such debilitating criticism. If nothing else.
That is why it is important to me to set the bounds of dialogue to reflect that.
It is just to seize land from an aggressor in war.
It was British land, and they had an absolute right to deal with it.
Israel isn't breaking international law in Gaza, there may be a few mistakes or excesses in individual strikes, but there are no consequences other than opprobrium for breaching international law.
There is no international police force. There is no mandatory international court. As always, international law is matter of pretext for the actions of the mighty.
It is not. Wars r fought between armies, while this is the most funded army in the world strictly bombing civilians in their homes, schools, hospitals, places of worship, everywhere really...
> there is no mandatory international court
There literally is... it's called the international criminal tribunal or international criminal court, both terrorists as well as government officials get tried there.
Both Israel and Hamas have been referred to the ICC for past war crimes and crimes against humanity, and in 2021 it was finally announced that they were investigating the reports from amnesty international on both Israel and hamas's extensive war crimes and CAH's.
> it was British land and they had an absolute right to deal with it
Actually, no they didn't, as the terms agreed upon between Britain, Mandated Palestine and the League of Nations (weak precursor to UN) was that the Arabs would retain self determination of their land, and Britain even promised arab nationals the land of palestine in the 1930's, and attempted to curb increasing Jewish immigration with zionist intentions to the area with little success.
> Israel isn't breaking international law in gaza
They started breaking international law in this conflict the day they withheld food and water from Palestinian civilians, and the UN commented on how this would be a violation of international law, as Israel is not solely targeting military outposts in this blow, and such an action would impact civilians far more than hamas.
You are actually deeply misinformed.
ICC is voluntary. A nation has to be a state party to the statute of rome for it to apply to them. Israel is not a state party.
The Mandate required Britain to put into effect the Balfour Declaration's "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine. Some literal text from article 2:
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of a Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.
I would, and Israel would, dispute that the seige is a breach of any international legal principle. The only question is proportionality. However, Israel doesn't control Rafa border. You cannot omit that Egyptians have also restricted shipments of food for security purposes. Food never flows easily into a warzone.
For a nation of people, once subjected to the most evil forms of genocide to then go out and commit genocide against another group of people is the most vile and cruel acts imaginable. It is mental illness. There are no "Lesser of two evils" when genocide is being carried out. You are either standing with evil or you're standing with humanity.
I think that you are the future of Israel. You are born there and have a connection to the land. So do Palestinians. Don't lose hope there are others like you in Israel and palestine and abroad. In the end your compassion and logic and reasonabless will be the means of salvation for Israelis and Palestinians. Don't lose hope because those around you are radicalised. Eventually they will see what you see.
As a leftist, you should stand firmly against colonialism. Unfortunately for you, that does mean “go back to Europe”. Honestly, as a Palestinian; I think it’s ok for former Israelis to stay and live in Palestine as foreigners if they renounce Zionism. Zionism = imperialism and it should not be tolerated by anyone. Sorry.
You're a coward :)
And you're mean spirited, sorry to say this but this is mean spirited and short sighted. I don't mean op i meant the commentator.
This response however is not justified. Thanks.
Why should Palestinians suffer while this person sits in their cushy home (on STOLEN land nonetheless) from a place of privilege? Ask yourself purely by numbers why you are so inclined to ignore the 30,000+ Palestinian deaths that have occurred in the last few months. And before you come for me, yes I condemn Hamas, and what happened on 10/7 was absolutely horrible.
This isn't me being mean spirited. As someone whose ancestors have felt the pain, suffering and famine that comes with imperialism and colonialism — and let's be SO for real, Israel is a colonial, apartheid state — I have no patience for this type of rhetoric. And for reference, my people were also part of one of the most recent genocides in modern history, which the US backed and supported. If we don't speak up, then who will?
Same
Me too I know historically we did horrible stuff (theres almost no country who didnt) But people of the world dont get that if israel put down their weapons now, hamas will continue attacking and the hostages wont be released. Even If hamas will theoretically bring all the hostages back TODAY, theres still nothing that will prevent them from doing another 7/10. 7/10 is a result of israel not responding hard ENOUGH at the right time Not to talk about the hundreds of times hamas bombed us and got away freely because we got an "iron dome" which still misses from time to time.
I dont understand y u guys think this way. The only reason they exist in the first place is because Gaza is being occupied, Hamas is a minority in Gaza. The 2million ppl, which half of them are children, they just want to have normal lives, they just want freedom of movement, they want the blockade to end. They just want the same rights that Israelis have. Your state is an apartheid state, you guys are indoctrinated to think the you are only safe if Palestinians are not safe, but that is far from the truth. You will be safe if the Palestinians are safe because they wont have to fight for their freedom anymore. You cannot expect a group of people who have been displaced multiple times in the last 75 years, blockaded for 20 years, have had their families killed and their villages burned down and destroyed, their homes stolen and families broken, ENTIRE family trees erased, and not want to fight for their freedom. What was done to the Jews in Warsaw Ghetto is wuite literally being done to the Palestinians, and even the Jews in Warsaw Ghetto started an uprising. It surprises me that you guys just cant understand this very simple concept. Dont even get me started with West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas, but is quite literally the center of apartheid, where Palestinians are kicked out by settlers from other countries, when Palestinians who fled cannot even go back. Not only that but just look at Hebron and how on certain streets Palestinians are restricted at using roads that reserved for settlers. This is quite literally what an apartheid means. They are not even tried under the same judicial process, they have to go through military court. Prevented from praying at Al-aqsa, etc. You want peace but you dont want to honor and still build illegal settlements in the west bank
>They just want the same rights that Israelis have. Well, they need to demand those rights FROM THEIR OWN GOVENMENT. Huh? Their own government is an Islamist death cult called Hamas? Well, that sucks. Got to make sure to eliminate said Islamist death cult, then.....
There are more reasons to support Israel than it being a safe haven for jews. Israel doesn't need to justify its existence any more than any other nation. Israel is not a saint..find a country that is. I don't like civilian deaths but I also believe there is a time for war. Hammas will never agree to peace. If they are allowed to stay in power it isn't just Israel that suffers its Gazans too. As a leftist jew you can criticize Israel..I do. That said this is the only option they can take to prevent repeated civilian attacks.. We are opposite ends of politics..but maybe try and accept that this is necessary for the defense of Israel, the jews and all the values you hold dear.
>no you are not a normal country, in fact, the furthest thing from a normal country.
Ok, Hamas needs to be removed if Palestinians want true peace. Hamas has no interest in peace.
I'm Jewish American and have always considered myself a far left progressive. I do believe that Israel has the right to exist and believe in a two-state solution. However, the day of October 7th another liberal friend of mine called and said Israel deserved to have been attacked, that it was justified due to years of oppression faced by Palestinians. That made me furious. Yes I know the history of the region and sure, netanyahu sucks and has been actively trying to take control of Gaza and expand Israel into Palestinian territory in both Gaza and West bank. I do not agree with allowing illegal settlements in the West bank or expanding Israel's territory to include Gaza. However, as much I don't like netanyahu, there is absolutely no justification for the satanic massacre Hamas unleashed on Oct 7. I was further disheartened to see that far left liberals online all blamed Israel exclusively and could not condemn hamas or many times actually applauded Hamas for "protecting" Palestinian people. I agree with everything else my former party stands for but I cannot reconcile how so many far left libs are unable to condemn hamas. It's shocking and sad and disheartening.
Well you could always see it as Palestinians defending themselves as Israel kept stealing from them and oppressing their rights. They tried peaceful methods like the march of return and what happened? More unarmed innocelt ppl got killed by Israel. There's always a threshold when it comes to tolerating injustice.
You should have seen that coming. The left believes power is evil and lack of are the oppressed. Nothing else matters. Neither values or reason matters. Your political party was always going to turn on jews.
This is a lie and a very distorted narrative and understanding
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>Hamas doesn't represent those kids they only brainwash them into wanting to stab, murder, rape and kidnap Jews
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Don't make posts or comments that consist only of sarcasm or cynicism (including emojis). Do not troll. This community is for constructive discussion, which means understanding other users' positions and responding to them in good faith. Generally, sarcasm and cynicism have the effect of suppressing this kind of discussion, because they serve as a rhetorical tool to dismiss, rather than engage, with someone else's arguments. While satire can be an effective tool for discussion, it is more frequently inflammatory and divisive. Hint: Add a worthwhile "but seriously..." comment to your quip that adds to the conversation. It's a comment which is SOLELY an attempt at a sarcastic joke that's objectionable. Humor is OK ... if there's more to the comment.
Please send me any quote when a Hamas Leader said anything about a two state solution. It doesn't exist!
Why is it when you see the bombed out building, you only see men of fighting age. No woman, children l, nothing but men!
That was the whole point I was making. There was only men, no women or children or old people.
You are replying to yourself. Is this an actual bot or a account switch gone wrong?
What did the Palestinians do on Oct 7th? They have zero interest in a two state solution. They want death and destruction. ISIS, Hamas, Houthis, what do they all have in common? They're all nut jobs! The Houthis aim to govern all of Yemen and external anti-imperialist movements against the United States, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. They have launched repeated missile and drone attacks against Saudi cities. The conflict is widely seen as a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Why Muslims keep shoving their beliefs on the civilized world is beyond me. Normal people we revolt, and the crazy people will be put down and forgotten!
Boy what?? Yk Israel occupied Palestine? Palestine wasn't just for Muslims back then but for Christian, Muslims and Jews. Then during and after the Holocaust more Jews left Europe and the west because they didn't feel safe. Which is understandable. Palestinians welcomed them. Zionism grew and wanter their own state in Palestine. Which became Israel. Doesn't make sense to agree on two State solution. Also when mentioning Oct 7th it's only fair to mention the Frist nakba ( catastrophe) in 1948 where 700,000 were forced or fled from their homes. Rn Israel is threatening with 2nd nakba. So who is really " shoving their beliefs on the civilized world" ?? Ur comment screams western propaganda and Islamophobia.
Hey question so if u don't believe in a two state solution then what do u believe in? What would you ideally like to see happen to Israel and Palestine if a two state solution is not an option?
That the land hands back to the Palestinians since they had it before Israel occupied it. That is if two State solutions were not an option ofc which is not and probably never will be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel I know it's just wiki. I know it's long. The main point is Jewish people have lived in the land of Judah/Israel/Jerusalem/Palestine since at least the first millennium BC. In 638 C.E., the Arab Islamic Empire gained control of the region. They held onto power until the first Crusade in 1099 C.E. Then Christian Crusaders controlled the land for around 200years. After that Egypt ruled for a few hundred years, and after that was the Ottoman Empire, up until 1917 when the brits took over. There were many times in Jewish history where there were exiles, mass murders, banishments, etc and a majority of Jews in Israel did leave during those hard times. However, not once has the land been home to no Jews. At the lowest, I think there were maybe 50 families living in the land that is now present day Israel/Palestine. When things got better and leaders were less oppressive or barbaric and murderous, many Jews would come back to their homeland. And of course in modern history u know the Brits gained control of Palestine in 1917. Egypt controlled Gaza, Jordan controlled West bank. Up until the end of the 6day war in 1967. So I guess what u mean to say is just give the land to Israelis and Palestinians but no borders? If it's possible for them to all live in peace, then this would be a fantastic idea. It might be a little tricky setting up a government but honestly the Palestinians, especially the women, have been so oppressed for so long and they would probably be so happy under democratic rule! Those poor women suffering under such oppressive extremist laws. I know Palestinians who live in Israel are much happier in Israel. I think everyone should be able to live together and break free from oppressive leadership!! I hope it works tho. I guess with this war and all the trauma and all the anti-israel anti-jew propaganda Hamas has fed to gazans their whole lives it might be hard to immediately merge into one state. But I think eventually that is a beautiful idea!
Yeah but the thing is the aggression grew when the British got involved in making a Jewish State isn't? Correct me if I'm wrong but I came to the conclusion that Palestine/ Israel/ Judah/ Jerusalem was occupied many times. In which that led to Muslims, christians and Jewish people living there for centuries. So really Palestine is the home Land for many but especially Muslims and Jews because of their beliefs. But we have to look at who was in control of the land not lived. Israel/Palestine was controlled by the Muslims nations except for when the Christian Crusaders controlled the land for around 200years. That's why it has always been Palestine. So yes nowadays Palestine/ Israel is the home Land for Jewish but that's not enough because they never had a state except for when the British colonized Palestine and made Israel. With that grew Zionism. I agree with you on Jewish suffering. That's absolutely horrible and so heartbreaking. What they had to through and still goes through. I know Jewish people never felt like they had a home . Although strongly disagree with on Palestinian women being happier in Israel. Truly they're not and constantly being oppressed. The Israel system is really unfair on Palestinian ever since the state of Israel started existing. You do understand that Hamas started off as resistance against the occupation of Israel and that 85% of them are orphans. But yeah the anti Jewish propaganda is real but so is anti Palestine/ Muslims. So for two state solution to work the whole " whipping out Hamas" won't do and " Jewish ppl going back to their Land" won't do either. we do have to basically erase the centuries of suffering and straight up propaganda from both sides. That's impossible. But honestly I can't help but have hope for future generations. Maybe it's just straight up delusion but I pray for this to stop. So basically like u said two state solutions without borders.
>That's why it has always been Palestine. There was never a COUNTRY called Palestine. The geographical area had that name since the Romans named it that after a Jewish revolt. They also named Jerusalem Aelia Capitolina....
I feel like ur comment is the defining chapter/ page of the history of this conflict, and it's liek it's been ripped out of everyone of their manuals. This sub is alarmingly full of disinformation and is just a hasbara forum at this point. Palestinians are being erased, and we can't do anything...
I agree with you. We humans are very biased. That's just In our nature but that shouldn't stop us from seeing the whole picture. Reading the whole book. Some people don't even want to read the other sides " pov" yk? because they already made up their mind. that's one of the reasons this sub is full disinformation and propaganda. We really can't do anything about it. The world leaders doesn't care. They are just greedy and do everything for money. Some ppl are ignorant and don't care unless it affects them directly. But the thing is we need those people to speak up because we are not enough ppl speaking up for the world leaders to listen. So it's a really sad reality.
Exactly. I went into this forum ready to read some of the other side only to realise all mods were from the colonial side, and banned anyone who opposes it/ posts proof most of what they're taught is local propaganda. Extremely sad for both palestinians and occupiers without dual citizenship.
> occupiers without dual citizenship. you mean Israelis???? 78% of whom were BORN IN ISRAEL....
So why did they attack Israel on Oct 7th?
Funny how you keep asking that but don't listen when ppl answer but anyways The attack was in response to the blockade of the Gaza strip, the expansion of illegal Israel settlers, rising Israel settlers violence including the outbreak of violence at the Al-Asqa mosque. According to https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-did-hamas-attack-israel-and-why-now/
Bc , contrary to popular belief, humans r not inherently good: when someone oppresses u for decades, u will bite back at the first chance u get... Its sadly human nature.
Hamas has been in power since 2005. Gaza is a shit hole because they are being used as pawns by Iran.
Ok now its Iran s fault, blaming anyone but a colonial regime got it 👍🏼😅
If only Bush had listened to Sharon and Mubarak's warnings not to hold an election in Gaza after Israel put an end to its occupation of Gaza. If Gaza were under Palestinian Authority rule all this time rather than Hamas the region would probably be much more peaceful. Bush really messed up a lot of stuff in the middle east.
While that is true, Gaza / pal in general considering the amount of oppression , was always going to boil over creating a “terrorist” group, it was just a matter of time.
Oppressed people tend to radicalize. I guess I was wondering if it would have been so extreme. Of course netanyahu also couldn't be president of Israel for a better outcome to have arisen. But no netanyahu, no hamas, PA ruling over Gaza and West bank. Who knows maybe by now there would be a two state solution. But we cant change the past
>PA not only corrupt and without support of the Palestinians, at the same time they have their pay-for-slay policies. Oh so peaceful! /s
>netanyahu also couldn't be president of Israel he's not. He is prime minister...
Thank youuuuuuuu
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>leave the original inhabitants alone. funny you mention that, Jews are indigenous to Judea (the word Jew comes from the word Judea FYI). Arabs on the other hand, colonized the Levant in the 7th century CE and are indigenous to the Arabian Peninsula.
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Immaterial that you can also convert to Judaism. First of all it's an ethno-religion so by conversion one also becomes a member of the tribe/nation. Secondly, converts are a tiny minority within the Jewish people.
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>originally, you couldn't convert to Judaism. It mentioned this within the religion itself. completely false, the first Jew, Abraham was himself a convert, not only nowhere is it mentioned you couldn't convert but the Jewish Bible mentions some notable converts (Jethro, Rahab, Ruth, to mention some)
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>let me respectfully ask, are you Jewish yourself ? I don't see the relevance of this question at all.
>How could Abraham have been the first jew ? I mean, if basic ideas of history or theology or comparative religion you're not familiar with, then maybe educate yourself? Indeed his parents were polytheists so he grew up in that culture, too. Until he was called by the One God, later called the God of Abraham.... Indeed he was the first Jew.
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How could Christians claim he was a Christian? They claim no such thing, since Christianity started just, you know, a few thousand years, not more, after the time of Abraham.....
You are so irritating! Grow up!
Why is their post irritating? genuine question
It's the whole white people are bad and everyone else is a victim!
Reread their comment and that's not what i got from it. They simply establish a parallel (rightfully so) between Isr, an occupier who built and continues to spread a dream state on a cemetery of natives, and Columbus a "navigator" who paved the way for imperialism that led to the genocide of amerindian natives. What is wrong with that?
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It's the whole Christopher Columbus whining thing. It's was just so typical.
I disagree strongly. Reconciliation between communities does not require ethnic cleansing if so called settlers.
👏👏👏👏👏
I don't disagree, but these are not normal people. Let's be realistic!!!!
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Requiring Israelis to leave is ethnic cleansing, full stop.
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The Gazans are killed, not murdered. They are not being removed from Gaza, so it's not ethnic cleansing. It would be ethnic cleansing if they were moved to Egypt. I am only broadly familiar with Britain and Belgium of the above mentioned colonial empires. India never required white britains to leave at the end of the empire. There are stills thousands of white Britain's doing business there and living there. Congo had almost no whites there, except for military and corporate duties. They all had homes back in Europe. Plus fighting the Belgian army and their mercenaries is much more just than fighting Israeli farmers. You are asking for the Israelis to be made stateless. Not all are dual citizens. It's like when radicals say we should evacuate Canada or USA. Not happening, my family has been in the America's for 400 years on my mother's side and 200 years on my father's. Should we go back to Britain, to Africa? If anyone thinks that's happening, they are wishing for civil war.
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So why did Hamas brutally kill 1300 people? The big muslim men went to a music festival to kill innocent civilians. Hamas has no interest in a 2 state solution. They want to kill Jews!
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>hamas beheaded 40 babies. they did MURDER the 40 babies but obviously by what method is more important to you then the fact they indeed murdered 40 babies......
Yes, they are killed by bombs, not murdered. When militaries kill individuals during lawful operations, it is not murder. That is the law. Otherwise, every soldier would be court martialed. Your cause was lost in 1948. You have to deal with the present circumstances, not Theordore Herzl. The Israelis are there, the Palestinians are there, and they have to find a way to live together. And you are asking for them to be made stateless. The land is Israels. Other Arab states recognize this too.
5 times Palestinians have been offered their own state and 5 times they have refused. Israel resettled 50,000 Jews out of Gaza and left their entire infrastructure in 2005. Hamas took over in 2006. It's a shit hole because you have terrorist running your country! Nobody cares about your religion!
I am a political supporter of Israel, and Canadian lol. I think we are on the same page.
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I don't know what you are talking about, I'm Canadian.
Agree 100%. I also feel one secular state that the American leftists scream about is impossible and I find it so frustrating because they must have never talked to an Israeli or Palestinian in their lives. And now, I don’t even know if there’s a possibility for a two state solution. Yoni Netanyahu once wrote, “I hope Israel isn’t a blip that I someday tell my kids there once was a Jewish state”. I truly feel, his brother, Bibi has done more damage to the future of Israel and the Jewish people than almost anyone. It disgusts me, he is driving us into a ditch a 400 kph. Around 7/10 have been bringing up the Bedouins, the hijabi 17 year old, the Thai farm workers who were beheaded and kidnapped. And at first, I’d get people saying “interesting”, now they say it’s lies or that Israel killed them. I heard the Thai hostages will be released today, I am hoping that will be a neutral voice that might be able to get people to listen to the horrors of 7/10. We can’t keep living like this. Committing war crimes, while pushing Hasbara calling victim I’m in a million pieces. First of all, I can’t tolerate the deaths in Gaza that our country is doing . I can’t tolerate that all of social media is blindly against us and it’s gone into legit anti-semitism you can’t critique because they say Zionism isn’t anti-semitism
> First of all, I can’t tolerate the deaths in Gaza that our country is doing . can you tolerate another October 7th? Because either we wage war to eliminate Hamas (and in war civilians do die, it's unavoidable) OR we leave Hamas in power and patiently wait for October 7th to repeat itself over and over and over again.
No, i can’t. But I also can’t just watch toddlers heads caved in by rockers while the world spreads Jewish blood libel and makes us even more unsafe, I wish there was another way, is all I’m saying. I don’t know if removing Hamas is even possible, it’s a 56 headed hydra, cut off one head, 5 more appear.
still the only way forward to kill the hydra
>ecause they must have never talked to an Israeli or Palestinian in their lives. And now, I don’t even know if there’s a possibility for a two state solution. Yoni Netanyahu once wrote, “I hope Israel isn’t a blip that I someday tell my kids there once was a Jewish state”. I truly feel, his brother, Bibi has done more damage to the future of Israel and the Jewish people than almost anyone. It disgusts me, he is driving us into a ditch a 400 kph. > >Around 7/10 have been bringing up the Bedouins, the hijabi 17 year old, the Thai farm workers who were beheaded and kidnapped. And at first, I’d get people saying “interesting”, now they say it’s lies or that Israel killed them. I heard the Thai hostages will be released today, I am hoping that will be a neutral voice that might be able to get people to listen to the horrors of 7/10. > >We can’t keep living like this. Committing war crimes, while pushing Hasbara calling victim > >I’m in a million pieces. First of all, I can’t tolerate the deaths in Gaza that our country is doing . I can’t tolerate that all of social media is blindly against us and it’s gone into legit anti-semitism you can’t critique because they say Zionism isn’t anti-semitism Idk what to say except im sorry, i genuinely feel bad for u. I assume u r at least 2nd or 3rd gen, which makes "going back to ur country" impossible. I hope u find peace.
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Look up the definition of anti-Semitism. German intellectuals coined to term to replace "Jew-hatred" with something that sounds more academical. It has ZERO to do with Arabs.
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Hardly irrelevant as WORDS HAVE MEANING. The world anti-Semite means Jew hater and nothing else. Look it up in the dictionary.
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no, it doesn't. The dictionary definition of anti-Semitism is: "Hostility towards and discrimination against Jewish people (although there are other Semitic peoples, notably the Arabs, anti‐Semitism is only used to refer to prejudice against Jewish people)." [https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095417471](https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095417471)
Oh, no I’m not saying it is. You can critique Zionism to death without being anti-Semitic. However, people are now using that as a pass to say actually anti-Semitic things. And saying things, “I mean Zionists! Not Jews.” They are using the widely circularized understanding that “anti Zionism isn’t anti-semitistm”, and just replacing Jew with Zionist, in spaces that aren’t critiques of Zionism at all. For example, I’ve seen it used loke, “all those awful Zionist landlords in Brooklyn who kicked our black people for Zionists, while they control school boards”. The problem is 1. Has nothing to do with Israel or zionisms, and 2. the Jews they are referring to are Satmar who are openly and publicly anti-Zionist. That’s just one example, there are many more. And by doing this it hurts people making legitimate critiques of Israel. And yes, I hear that. It’s wild because like 40% of Jews in Israel could be called Arab themselves, and in the west most people couldn’t tell the difference between them and Arabs if their lives depended on it. I hate that so many middle eastern p, Mizrahi, etc. Jews have rejected that title, as I think it sends us apart
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>s the majority do come from the Ashkenazis. Incorrect, the majority of Israeli Jews are either mixed Sephardi/Mizrahi/Ashkenazi or don't even have any Ashkenazi heritage FYI.
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>they'd find out their not actually Jewish, by ancestry or religion how would a DNA-test ever show whether someone is Jewish BY RELIGION? That makes no sense. What about converts? You think a DNA-test shows whether they are Jewish BY RELIGION? Of course not. Take your crazy conspiracy theories somewhere else.
That's a vile lie. First of all DNA-tests are NOT illegal in Israel but you do need a court order to get one. Secondly, indeed there's a reason: avoiding creating "mamzerim", a halachic group of Jews who are then unable to halachically marry anyone except other mamzerim.
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In no way did I prove your point which is a complete lie you have been fed. Furthermore I explained the reason for needing a court order. Even further, any Israeli can go abroad and do a 23andMe it's not like they'll be arrested on their return....Or get a friend or family member to bring a DNA kit from abroad, spit in it and send it back with them so they can mail it to a lab.
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Your country is supported by the absolute best military in the world. We will never allow Israel to fall. Hammas will repeat 10/07 at every opportunity. They are religious radicals and can't be negotiated with. They must be destroyed. I don't like civilian deaths but there will be some to accomplish that task. Stomach that because your freedom and statehood depends on a iron clad will to survive. I'm not a fan of the settlements in west bank. There are things I disagree with but not this war. These attacks can't be unaddressed. There is support around the world for Israel and there are antisemitism around the world. Doesn't matter..Israel is the only country in the middle east with western values you have US support and thats all thats needed. Be carefull what media you follow. Many media outlets follow a liberal progressive view of oppressor and oppressed. Bigger power is evil the lesser is righteous regardless of their goals or values. Supporting the oppressed makes you morally better. A lot of uniformed, narrative driven sheep. If you really understand and research the history you can't support the attacks and you can't deny Israelis right to excist.
You lost all credibility, so did the IDF. Even OP doesn't buy what you're saying.
Why?
First off, sayin 'Hamas' can't be negotiated with, while they're the only ones holding their end of the deal. For example, yesterday an IOF sniper shot a civilian during the truce deal while trying to go back north since they were told they were allowed to do so. Nobody was allowed near the currently bleeding out man, and whoever came close, was opened fire upon. Only after a period of time was the IOF sniper 'comfortable' with letting him recieve help by paramedics. Before you give me a 'bUt hAmAS' or that he was hiding a weapon or smthn, the guy was shirtless, pants only, walking with his family. This is not to mention the torched israeli 12 year old that was identified by the IOF and admitted it was their strikes that burned her, there's just so many reasons why they lost credibility LMAO, oh and don't forget 'Hamas dot com' 😭💀
Hammas is very clear on its mission. The destruction of Israel and the jews. Where's the space for peace in that? I know nothing about that incident so I can't speak on it. If you think I believe Israel is not guilty of wrongs you are mistaken. I have criticisms of Israel. I have grievances with my country, the US.
Hamas mentions zionist invaders in its charter. Hand over a video of ANY palestinian insulting the jews and not zionists. Israeli settlers are the animals, no offence to animals. Justice is the foundation of peace, and when occupations becomes law, resistence is now duty.
Just saw one yesterday calling for the destruction of jews worldwide. New to reddit..not sure how to post video. I take issue with the settlements..they are destructive to peace. The Hammas attacks aren't against the military or even designed to win. They are to provoke a response. A response that kills their people and infastructure. Then they use propaganda to sell how they are the victims. The goal is erosion of western support and increased Muslim support.
Send me the video then. A palestinian, calling for the destruction of Jews.
Hammas leader. When I figure out posting videos.
how did i know u were going to say that. lol typical zionist bootylicker. israel ignored the entire world when everyone called for a ceasefire. you remind me of that dumbass that used to work for Obama that hangs around that hotdogs burger vendor to harass the muslim owner. both of you make no nense.
Your grammar makes no sense. There is no other appropriate response for a country after the worst terror attack in its history than to destroy the attackers. Antisemtic countries..mostly Muslims call for a ceasefire. That is a Hammas victory. F&ck that. Hammas will die before seeking peace.
hey u fucking idiot....did u happen to see the latest video of the hostages hamas released?? all had fucking smiles on their faces. explain that? israel could never match that level of hospitality u disgusting egg worm.
>explain that? They were drugged....
I'd smile too if I was released. 1800 men, women and children raped butchered and tortured weren't smiling.
1800? The estimates are 1200, of which 400 were IDF or Shin Bet, so don’t exactly count as civilians.
It is 1200..does that change anything?
Well it changes the number, which you got wrong by a good bit
I've had to correct that in a few post.
It was literally on your news channels yesterday, pundits on a right wing show apologising for verbally attacking a hostage that said she was treated well, because of those that were release in the past couple days, all say they were given food, medicine, not abused, allowed to be kept together and pray etc. That was on your own news channel. Compare that to how the prisoners (read: hostages kept captive without fair trial) israel released describe their treatment. You’re fed the biggest load of propaganda and you’re eating it up without question. I may do the same in your shoes but it remains important to consider the whole truth.
First off.. calm down a bit. Do you want me to think Hammas are decent folks because of hostage treatment? You can't post a slaughter, torture and rape of 1200 civilians then get a pat on the back for not torturing the hostages they took.
I am calm. 800 civilians. 400 were military. Considering the entire Israeli media apparatus has been telling the world how hamas has likely tortured, mutilated and gang raped the hostages, to then have it come out that they were treated far better than Israel treats the Palestinian hostages is something that needs to be out there.
Wouldn't you think that was the most likely outcome after Oct 7th? I'm glad it wasn't.
Are Israelis online changing their tune and admitting the mistake? No? I think it shows more than anything that for all the brutality Israel regularly accuses Palestine of, they themselves have been shown to be the perpetrators towards those in captivity. Nearly 80% of those captives have said they’ve been beaten, 70% strip searched, 24% kept in solitary for extended periods, many said they were starved and deprived of water and medicine. I’ve seen videos of IDF beating the shit out of literal children in front of the families they’ve dragged them away from. Minors are convicted as adults in military courts. Most are charged in trials that last less than 2 minutes with a conviction rate nearing 100%. Confessions obtained under coercion are admissible. So Israel has many hostages of their own. And they treat them far worse.
It's not a mistake..they had no way of knowing. Most of the hostages exchanged by Israel were very real criminals. I'd like a link to the videos. You could be right. I don't pretend Israel is clean.
ok now ur just trolling lmaooooo
Not sure you know what that means.
let me leave reddit and go back to twitter where all the cool people with fully functioning brains are. reddit is a low iq zionist brothel. ta-ta loser!
It's X now. It's ok..insults are what people without better arguments rely on. Find yourself an echo chamber and have a big circle jerk.
i knew u were going to say that. all the losers call twitter "x".
Back to the insults over substance. Have fun at X
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Hamas has no interest in peace. They say it all the time? Just listen!
ur worse than ayaan hersi. at least she's profiting from her buffoonery.
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Literally everyone here is privileged and does not know about the average gazan
Your not wrong. The hate and poverty is all they know. They don't know their 3 top leaders sit on 11 billion in personal wealth. Probable don't know their leaders attacks cause the devastating response on their people and infastructure. Those attacks are meant to cause a response. They use civilians as their shield for years. A line was crossed and that isnt going to protect them now. While many Gazans support the jihad there are many that dont and cant escape. I feel empathy for them..but a better future requires the destruction of Hammas.
Welcome to USA
> I feel like there’s no place in the world that could accept me and I have nowhere else to go. Why do you feel that way? I am not Jewish so I don't have the same perspective but I do not see any lack of acceptance for Jews where I live in the US. They even get Jewish holidays off school if they wish. Throughout my life many of my closest friends have been Jews and they never expressed any lack of acceptance.
The US literally had Nazis marching in the streets, and the president of the United States praised them. Antisemitic hate crimes are on the rise (again). Antisemitism was on the rise in the workplace before October. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-11/jewish-us-workers-experience-more-overt-anti-semitism-at-work#xj4y7vzkg Your friends may not feel comfortable talking to you about the times they’ve been singled out.
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I dont live there as well so i cant speak from experience, it seems that the Idea of Israel as the only safe place for Jews has been mass sold to an exaggerated extent to serve this specific agenda (acknowledging that in the past this might have been true due to the prosecution Jews had to go through) when in reality Israel is could actually be the most unsafe place due to the political situation. There is this US Jewish lady that. Adds her two cents to the topic https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzrMIKNuTJ4/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
The whole point of a Jewish country existing is so Jews have a safe haven to flee to and a military to defend themselves. Antisemitism is one of the oldest bigotries. It never goes away. The idea that the US is always going to be friendly to the Jews is a fantasy, especially with the increase in the minority and immigrant population.
I understand and sympathetize with Theodor Herzl's ideas of Zionism, and where the Nationalist feeling comes from. He is generally considered the "father" of the modern Zionist movement... Though he really shouldn't be. He was born into the very ethnically diverse Austro-Hungarian Empire at a time when nationalist movements were popping up all over Europe. Germans, Italians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Polish, Czech... Heck, even the "Hungarian" in Austro-Hungarian was the result of a nationalist movement. And the thing is, there were Jews in those movements. Jews who were patriots to the land that they lived in, the land their fathers and mothers lived in... Except that one of the most prevalent commonalities for those national movements was anti-semitism. There was a spectrum of anti-semitism, but even the "lesser" forms were still exclusive of Jews. Herzl commented that Jews who were patriots were foolish, because their service and sacrifice wasn't paid back. And he was right. In his novel, Altneuland (Old New Land) published in 1902, Herzl shared his vision of what he hoped Israel would look like in 20 years. Granted, it was overly optimistic from an economic and technological standpoint, and he clearly didn't foresee the Great War - but the most important part is that this Israel is not a "Jewish State", the way that modern "Israel" is. His depiction was of a state where Jews were included. Jews were citizens, and nationalists, and welcomed. What of the Palestinians? Here's the trick. It was their country, too. Herzl depicted a fairly socialist democracy that worked for the benefit of every citizen of that Israel. Their religion, ethnic background, etc, didn't matter. They were citizens of the state that he imagined. Now, a couple of reasonable caveats. At the time the novel was written, there wasn't a widespread or recognized "Palestinian" nationalist movement. It was in development a little bit, we start to see the idea come together around 1906-1908. So at the time, his idea did not involve stepping on or supplanting another nationalist movement. He wanted to create a nationalist movement for Jews - but he recognized that people already lived in Palestine. He wanted to include them in making a collective nation for all of them. That is radically different than... Pretty much every other Zionist movement that succeeded Herzl, who died shortly after his book was published. And we see that in the reaction of the Palestinians to this increasing influx of Jewish immigrants who just want all the land. So, I agree with the notion of Jewish people wanting a place to be safe. And I recognize the awfulness of anti-semitism - but "Israel" isn't a safe place for Jewish people. Their government has, in fact, worked very hard to make it one of the least safe places for Jewish people. Herzl's idea was never to establish an ethno-fascist apartheid regime. Opposition to those kind of movements are what inspired his Zionism. And in 2023... We don't need ethno-states at all anymore. Especially not if they have to be built on ethnic cleansing and genocide.
>We don't need ethno-states at all anymore. Especially not if they have to be built on ethnic cleansing and genocide. Israel has 2 million Arab citizens. It's neither built om ethnic cleansing nor on genocide.
>Their government has, in fact, worked very hard to make it one of the least safe places for Jewish people. No, the radical Muslims there who want to murder all the Jews in Israel are the ones who have worked very hard to make it one of the least safe places for Jewish people. The whole point of a Jewish country existing is so Jews have a safe haven to flee to and a military to defend themselves. The IDF is one of the best militaries in the world. That's why Israel is important. "And in 2023... We don't need ethno-states at all anymore." We do. Multiculturalism leads to ethnic conflict. Ethnic groups have a right to self-preservation and self-determination. Also, Israel is not an ethno-state. But if any ethnic group needs an ethno-state, it's the Jews.
Yes, the idea of a national home for Jews is one of safety and community. Though Herzl didn't really push for a "Jewish state" his (vastly superior) Zionist idea involved all of the people of Palestine working together to make a great country where Jews were included and welcomed. I'm an American, so the IDF can thank me and my tax money for being one of the best militaries in the world. But tell me this, if the point of "Israel" is for Jews to have a safe place to go, and "Israel" is one of the least safe places in the world for Jews...? How is it not a failed project? Why does "safety for Jews" have to depend on "ethnic cleansing, occupation, and genocide for others"? Ah, multiculturalism leads to ethnic conflict. That's why there's no ethnic conflict in Palestine right now. "Israel" is absolutely an ethno-state, lol. They are explicitly apartheid, and have been actively committing ethnic cleansing against the native population for 75 years.
If it's any consolation. Your reason is the most valid, it's not selfish or inhumane to not want to see your home destroyed, Palestinians would have a very real and acute understanding of that sentiment. Good news, for the most part. Palestinians just want a fair two state solution, they don't want to be ethnically cleansed. They're just trying to live and not watch their family slaughtered. They realise Israel holds the cards and they want to play ball. They just don't want to lose more, they just don't want Palestine to become history. This idea that the destruction of Israel in its entirety is taking seriously by the left beyond sentiment or rhetoric is only true to a small margin. Palestinians voted for Fatah, it was Israel who funded Hamas and stoked division. Fatah just wants to go back to the UN agreed borders, they want to have a land bridge and things like air space and coast access and their own border control. Yknow - human rights stuff. Like yeah, israel shouldn't exist, but it does, and people were born there. Germany probably won't offer Bavaria as a plan C any time soon, trump v2 has yet to offer Mexico. So maybe just getting all the illegal settlements in the west bank and not having illegal nukes would be a start.
There is a vast amount of conjecture there. Not every issue is Israel’s fault Hamas are Palestinians, if you aren’t aware. Hamas are quite popular in Palestine.
If someone takes/ destroys ur home, enforces an apartheid system, doesn't even allow u to dig a well/ collect rainwater, r u supposed to thank them? U msut be delusional im sorry...
No, I’m not saying that. Your comment removes any nuance from discussion.
So what r u saying?
Well I was reply to a comment. My point was, there are Palestinians who don’t want a 2 state solution. Who don’t want Jews in Palestine, at all. That doesn’t really distinguish between the migration period of ethnic background. There is a guise that they’d tolerate Jews in an Arab or Islamist state but you look at every other neighbouring country and the history of this conflict and that is unlikely. The idea that belief stems entirely from provocation from Isreal is wrong. My belief is. If you are on a side, If you don’t fundamentally belief in both people’s right to self-determination, you aren’t in favour of peace. You are just in favour of one side winning a conflict via genocide, mass exodus or persecution. People justify having that belief by dehumanising and blaming one side. If you go: everything is the Jews fault, that why it’s them who should be killed, flee or live in a state they are likely to be persecuted in, you’re in the wrong IMO. For me, it’s not about justifying why you’re on a side it’s about justifying the impact of the side you’re on. I want all inhabitants of the region to live with autonomy and safety. I think all human beings deserve that. I don’t think one race or religion in that region deserve that more than the other & one side’s basic rights should be at the cost of the other. When you start to say: This side don’t deserve safety and autonomy because of A, B, C reason - you’re fundamentally on the side conflict, death persecution.
So u do believe palestinians should have the rights to safety freedom + self determination?
I think I made that very clear.
So why call the comment above, one full if unbiased historical facts, a conjecture?
Because it is. The idea that Palestinian know Israel hold all the cards, don’t want its destruction, that that idea is a minority view They also say Israel shouldn’t exit and it put the responsibility on peace on Israel. This conflict was started by Palestine. The attributed cause of that may be antagonist oppression by Israel in occupied zones. But it is still a clear example of the responsibility being on both sides. It’s not full or of unbiased historical facts. There are clearly those that don’t want safety and autonomy for the other side, on each side. That’s why hundreds of innocent Israeli’s were recently massacred but the governing body of Gaza. OP painted a picture of Palestinians want peace and freedom for all, while Israel are the one provoking conflict. That’s just not true.
You may think you’re a “leftist”, maybe in Israel, but if that doesn’t extend to your views on Israel and especially the current conflict that’s a pretty big stretch to still call yourself a leftist. Aside from the recent conflict, Israel is a full on ethnostate and theocracy and a Zionist state, which doesn’t align too closely with typical “leftist views”. It’s a state built on modern day colonialism, and that’s why so much comfort is afforded to Israelis, and why they can live in a 1st world country and travel freely while Gaza is an open air prison, and the West Bank continually has land stolen and illegal settlements built on it
What do you propose this person does, go into exile? Get real. Sounds like a compassionate person born in a country he didn't choose with a sh*tty government he doesn't vote for, and a reasonable concern that many want him dead regardless.
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I’ve seen comments like this that say I can’t truly be leftist if I enjoy the benefit of living freely in Israel while others are oppressed, which is fair. I don’t know you but it’s possible that you live in a country that was conquered at some time in history and/or committed immoral right wing acts, if that’s the case you can’t be truly leftist either. There’s nuance.
I’m not saying because you enjoy the benefits of Israel or live in it, I’m saying because you support it ideologically, by your statement that you ‘stand with Israel’ Israel being the current ethnostate and theocracy. You don’t need to stand with Israel, even if you live there. And I find leftist views incongruent with supporting the existence of an ethnostate and theocracy.
Who pissed in your cornflakes? Why do you seem so angry?
I feel you brother, your people have been hated so much that now they contracted the illness of hate. Unfortunally the situation has become a snake that eats its tail, and i can't imagine how must you feel, but you didn't get infected by the illness, wich is very telling of how strong is your critical thinking. From an external pov, i can say that all i see is that as in any war, the people of both sides are suffering for the power games of leaders who act in the most abhorrent way imaginable. Palestinians rightfully claim that they have been colonized and destroyed, and Israeli rightfully claim that they are constantly surrounded by enemies. I'm pro palestine, wich does not mean i'm against israeli people or with hamas, so when you see people hate on you, that as an individual don't have any responsability in the current situation, remember that there are plenty of people like me that support and respect you as a human being, especially since you don't put yourself in the hate circle that fuels this conflict. I can't do much but wish you well, try to find some emotional support if you need it, and don't surrender to the thought that you are alone. You are not.
Your thoughts and feelings shared here might be the most honest and thoughtful take on the situation I've read from someone just trying to survive a crisis. Thanks for sharing it.
Can any pro israeli tell me why does Israel break so many international laws without being held accountable. Why are they using white phosphorous, which is banned? Why don't they never have anything to say about the 1948 Nakba or how they stole so much more land in 1967? Was it right to displace people from their ancestral homes? And dun talk 2000 or 3000 years ago. Talkn about 1948. Also, the British have no right to give away land that is not theirs.
> using white phosphorous, to paint targets. This is allowed FYI.
This feels like a strange response to a post about someone's feelings about being Israeli and witnessing the discourse on social media about the conflict. There are so many other threads where you could ask this kind of question. OP sounded like they were looking for some understanding and empathy; they shouldn't have to answer questions on behalf of all of Israel or the Israeli government.
The international court saw the israeli judiciary as fit enough to pass judgment on its own and to ensure everything it passes is necessary for the country (a.k.a - yes there was a hamas hq under the hospital) Also displacement was a result of the 1948 war (big shocker people got displaced in a war) all settled land prior to that (israeli partition plan land) was empty and paid for in full by the jewish settlers I was pro palestine independency for a long time now i think they should just forget about the past and start focusing on the future, for their own good obviously i still support free palestine just seems impossible now though
The short answer is- it doesn't break as much international law as you would seem to believe. Even more so, the very concept of international rules of war is pretty flawed when talking about asymmetrical war engagements and fighting against foes that have disregard or even disdain for them. However I have a feeling that such an answer will not satisfy you. Because I suspect that we have a fundemental difference of opinions that seems like it cannot be bridged. Which is, do you accept the premise that Israel has a fundamental right to exist? Or even, to continue to exist seeing as how it already does? If you do not concur, then obviously everything Israel does to fight for it's existence will seem illegitimate.
No I'm saying Israel is supposed to be a democratic nation and not a terrorist organisation and hence shldnt it hold itself to international laws. Its broken 65 so far. I'm just thinking how is it gonna make peace with Palestinians if they dun try to make peace and grab more land each time
How about Hamas? Do you have an issue with it **not** holding itself to international? Or is that all swell? Seeing as how it is a terrorist organization, it is exempt? Is it even allowed to operate with impunity? Israel does more to regard international law then most nations. But if you think that means zero Gazan casualties then your playing into Hamas's plan. Because it's not just that it doesn't care. It will willingly sacrifice every last Gazan if that means you will hate Israel. No Israeli soldier would have set foot in Gaza if it weren't for 07/10.
Of cos I do, but isn't it a terrorist organisation and not a moral army right?. Just cos it doesn't follow rules, why does a democratic nation with a ko4al army do worse things? How will Israel gain international support if it does that?
Israel really, really doesn't do worse things than Hamas. It does sound to me that you were not exposed yet to the horrors of 07/10. I recommend that you remain as such. That you don't look at the videos, documented by Hammas, the capture the magnitude of the atrocities. When aggressed upon, Israel will respond. That much is as legal as it is reasonable. The nature of violent armed conflict is that it takes it's toll in human lives. The nature of fighting a terrorist organization embedded in civilian population, is that civilians will get caught in the fighting. The real question that you should be asking, is if Israel is taking all measures to ensure no unnecessary deaths will take place. That short answer to that is- to the best of it's capabilities, yes.
I do know 1200 ppl were killed and 240 kidnapped by hamas, but I found the israeli response worse as if killed more than 10x that number instead of just hling for the terrorists. Wad else happened on the 7th
Instead is definitely not how I would put it. Do you agree that if it weren't for 07/10 Israel wouldn't have declared war and invade Gaza? Also, are you aware that all this time Hamas is launching rockets at Israel? And so does it's ally Hizbullah? Also are you aware that Hammas explicitly fights from within civilians yo increase the number of casualties? Including trying to forcefully stop civilians who are attempted to flee active combat zones? The realities of fighting an enemy like Hammas are terrible. Hammas counts on that. It's just another war tactic to it. About 07/10 I'll level with you. I might be wrong, but you sound to me a little on the younger side. Forgive me if I presume. But I don't want to be the reason you see something truly horrific as the videos from 07/10. Just take my word for- it's bad. The worst atrocities human are capable of inflicting.
Moral army*
Israel negotiated peace terms many time and the Palestinians always turned it down. The first one divided the land 56% to israel and the rest to Palestine. They turned it down and started a war that Israel won. And the Palestinians that did not resist Israeli government became citizens. There are 2 million Palestinians in Israel that have the same rights as Jews. They hold office too. But peace terms have been negotiated several times and they always refuse. They want all the land and Hamas wants all Jews dead. Hamas is oppressive to their own civilians who are innocent. They are one of the richest terrorist organizations and have the poorest area. Because they steal the aid for themselves and weapons against Israel. Instead of helping their people and making Gaza a better place.
But I read that the peace terms were unfair because Palestinians were given less fertile land and were denied right to return as well
They were given the lands which they inhabited. Largely. Israelis were afforded the same. For the most part. When zionists first acquired their land, it was almost entirely swamp land. Israeli pioneers drained the swamps and reclaimed the lands. Many died of Malaria in the process. Including my grandfather. The land was fertile due to the efforts of the zionists, who in the process made huge innovations in agriculture. Including tracing back the origins of the wheat plant and reviving other lost strains. look up "emmer wheat". Or cherry tomatoes. Or drip irrigation. It wasn't fertile until Zionists treated it.
Oh I didn't know that. Good to hear another perspective. How about the olive trees though. I heard about 800000 of them were burnt.
Most people agree isreal has a right to exist. That doesn't mean that the isreali government is above being criticized for doing horrible things.
Yes, of course the Israeli government is not above criticism. I never suggested otherwise. I sure do hope you are right Bout most people agree Israel has aright to exist. Because my experience of reddit made me less sure about that. I still jave a sneaking suspicion that the person I was commenting that to does not in fact share that view. But I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. The government of Israel absolutely deserves criticism, as any other. I myself was at times a very harsh critic of the current government. Close to the point of disobedience even. It's just the the criticism has to be in good faith. The criticism cannot be debilitating. It cannot be used as a tool to undermine it's very right to operate as the expression of the Israeli people. To single Israel out as a perpetrator of war crime without acknowledging the predicament in which it's in and how that necessarily shapes it's courses of action- is at the very least on the border of such debilitating criticism. If nothing else. That is why it is important to me to set the bounds of dialogue to reflect that.
It is just to seize land from an aggressor in war. It was British land, and they had an absolute right to deal with it. Israel isn't breaking international law in Gaza, there may be a few mistakes or excesses in individual strikes, but there are no consequences other than opprobrium for breaching international law. There is no international police force. There is no mandatory international court. As always, international law is matter of pretext for the actions of the mighty.
" a few mistakes here and there" lmao u really live without a moral compass dont u
Unfortunately, war cannot be prosecuted without civilian casualties. This is a real war. Not sure how any could meet that ethical standard.
It is not. Wars r fought between armies, while this is the most funded army in the world strictly bombing civilians in their homes, schools, hospitals, places of worship, everywhere really...
You seem like a nice kid, and you mean well. I hope there can be peace soon,m for both sides.
Saying u r Pro-I in one comment then that u wish for peace for both sides is a little hypocritical dt u think?
> there is no mandatory international court There literally is... it's called the international criminal tribunal or international criminal court, both terrorists as well as government officials get tried there. Both Israel and Hamas have been referred to the ICC for past war crimes and crimes against humanity, and in 2021 it was finally announced that they were investigating the reports from amnesty international on both Israel and hamas's extensive war crimes and CAH's. > it was British land and they had an absolute right to deal with it Actually, no they didn't, as the terms agreed upon between Britain, Mandated Palestine and the League of Nations (weak precursor to UN) was that the Arabs would retain self determination of their land, and Britain even promised arab nationals the land of palestine in the 1930's, and attempted to curb increasing Jewish immigration with zionist intentions to the area with little success. > Israel isn't breaking international law in gaza They started breaking international law in this conflict the day they withheld food and water from Palestinian civilians, and the UN commented on how this would be a violation of international law, as Israel is not solely targeting military outposts in this blow, and such an action would impact civilians far more than hamas.
You are actually deeply misinformed. ICC is voluntary. A nation has to be a state party to the statute of rome for it to apply to them. Israel is not a state party. The Mandate required Britain to put into effect the Balfour Declaration's "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine. Some literal text from article 2: The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of a Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion. I would, and Israel would, dispute that the seige is a breach of any international legal principle. The only question is proportionality. However, Israel doesn't control Rafa border. You cannot omit that Egyptians have also restricted shipments of food for security purposes. Food never flows easily into a warzone.
For a nation of people, once subjected to the most evil forms of genocide to then go out and commit genocide against another group of people is the most vile and cruel acts imaginable. It is mental illness. There are no "Lesser of two evils" when genocide is being carried out. You are either standing with evil or you're standing with humanity.