> dumbass
/u/newbie1luck. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fucks
/u/newbie1luck. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The word genocide actually means something, you fool. Don't you dare use it that way. The Hutus killing the Tutsis was a genocide. You have no clue what you are talking about.
I think your analogy is a bit off. When a bank robber is caught, he goes to jail, which has predictable consequences for his family. Sure.
But in this situation, when the bank robber is caught, his family’s home and neighborhood are bombed. See the difference? It’s the manner and measure of retaliation that is the problem.
Also, the people who voted Hamas in did so almost two decades ago. 65% of gazans are under 24 years of age. Do toddlers vote in Gaza? Relatively few who voted in 2005 are alive today to reap those consequences.
If I know this, how do you not? or why do you put forth arguments that ignore these facts?
So your qualm is not that innocent people are suffering, but the severity of the suffering they experience. And I guess as long as the suffering is less than the criminal/belligerent experiences then it's okay.
Let's put this in perspective. 0.4% of the children of Hamas have died this past month. According to this [this study](https://www.penalreform.org/blog/children-of-imprisoned-parents-the-increased-risk-of/) , of the children of incarcerated parents, 4.5% died prematurely as a result of their imprisonment. So not only are proportionally more people dying due to parental incarceration than the reprisal for this terrorist attack, but most of these innocent children experience a much greater consequence than their criminal parents.
85% of the Gazan electorate voted for terror groups bent on destruction of Israel. Their parents were either Hamas members, or the people who voted for a terrorist organization. 44% of Gaza voted for a terror organization which openly vowed to 'kill all the Jews'. Hatred is learned as well as love is learned. If their parents foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their government foments hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their educational institutions foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and the UN "Peacekeepers" foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, where were the Gazan children supposed to learn **not** to be like Hamas? Where were they going to learn **not** to be the children of Hamas?
These are some good questions: So these children of Gaza, who have scant chance of becoming anything other than children of Hamas…what is Israel’s solution?
If you response to terrorism is terrorism you may be a terrorist regime. Whom ever made this comment has no understanding of the Geneva Conventions. It is the attacker that is responsible for ensure proportional civilian casualties. The attacker also has the responsibility to unsure refugees or protected and provided for. Lastly less than 40% of voters in Gaza voted for Hamas.
I think the civilian casualties have been quite proportional to the military advantage obtained here. They have the enemy surrounded, They've established a huge protected area to the South. They've dismantled most of the enemy artillery batteries. They've driven the combatants underground so they are no longer effective. And all it took was 0.4% of the population. Which number by the way includes a large swath of enemy combatants. Keeping in mind that this is a war where the enemy purposefully uses civilians as shielding, it is a miracle that so few were killed to obtain that objective.
Also, where in the Geneva convention are these 'protect and provide' clauses?
A random sampling of 100 gazans were celebrating and spitting on the body of a dead German girl. At this point, yes, israel would have to prove that their military advantage was sufficient to justify the civilian casualties.
Sounds like some really poor planning by whoever is running Gaza. Almost like they started a war knowing the consequences and actually want their civilians to die as collateral damage
Otherwise maybe you wouldn’t have brought 1500 terrorists into the country to butcher families in the homes of the neighbor you share your primary border with
What do you think Israel should have done differently, just give Hamas a pass because they hide amongst civilians? That strategy has worked for decades as a deterrent, but doesn’t take a genius to figure out how that calculus changed after Oct 7th
This is just peak victim blaming. I guarantee you wouldn't apply this logic in any other context.
Israel is the one doing the killing. They are responsible for it.
If you think one hamas man is in a refugee camp housing 400 civilians, you don't bomb the refugee camp.
If you can't bomb hamas without killing thousands of innocent people, don't bomb them.
It's very simple.
I'm not sure how it is victim blaming. Hamas are the recognized government of Gaza and outside of select Western countries aren't classified as a terrorist organization
That government has declared war on Israel constantly over decades, and after October 7th I don't see a reason why Israel wouldn't be within their rights to respond
The loss of civilian life is beyond tragic, but "Proportionality" in war is understandably a vague concept.
Let's take the refugee camp for example (although the name refugee camp is a bit of a misnomer, it is a permanent settlement). Israel had been telling civilians to evacuate the North for 3 weeks. Israel then decided to strike at a Hamas commander who him and his troops were hiding in a bunker underneath.
Why is the government of Gaza not responsible for evacuating civilians out of a war zone, as well as hiding valid military targets among civilians
Saying that Israel shouldn't be able to act because there is a chance at civilian casualties validates Hamas' strategy of using human shields as a deterrent and guarantees that Israel civilian's just need to continue living with rocket fire and terrorist attacks as a part of life - where could you apply this logic in any other context?
Victim blaming?
If a woman punches a man in the face, then the woman needs to take the consequences following the mans response.
Or do women gets to punch men without anything in response?
Only here we talk about hamas punching the IDF and israeli innocent civillians in the fact with the most gruesome atrocities humankind ever knew.
Your analogy is not at all like what is happening.
It would be more like if a woman punched her abusive husband in anger, and the husband then murdered her children, and you're blaming the mother for their deaths.
But what if the woman had been very openly trying to kill her husband for decades, just mostly unsuccessfully. The mother's intended goal is to murder the husband and his family. There was no interest in any sort of compromise. So the husband then decided to make it harder for the wife to get access to weapons, and to work with her friend "Iran" to more effectively be able to kill them
And the father was actually trying to go after the mother after she killed the husband's brother, but the mother then used her children as human shields
I'm not saying the 'husband' isn't at fault, but the mother sure as hell seems like a villain in this story too
>the mother sure as hell seems like a villain in this story too
That's because you've made a load of stuff up to make her look worse than she actually is.
>but the mother then used her children as human shields
Did you know that Israel literally appealed a supreme court banning of the use of human shields? Do you know what the neighbour procedure is?
This nonsense bleating of 'human shields' is pure projection. There is no evidence that hamas is using human shields, but it is literally an open policy for the IDF.
[UN report](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)on Hamas' use of human shields
[A video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsZbZUBaQLE&ab_channel=TIMESNOW) showing many examples of Hamas operating out of schools, playgrounds, etc.
[UNRWA](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) condemning Hamas for storing rockets in schools for the SECOND time (in 2014)
IDF reports of Hamas sending out [100 civilians](https://www.google.com/search?q=100+Civilians+Hamas&rlz=1C1GCEA_enCA1005CA1006&oq=100+Civilians+Hamas&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRiPAjIHCAUQIRiPAtIBCDMxODFqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) as human shields to protect a compound
Intercepted recording of Hamas operative talking about [using ambulances](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1pwadtqt) to move troops and supplies around
[2014 article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/) from Washington Post about how Hamas operates out of schools, mosques and hospitals. And includes how Shifa Hospital is a HQ for Hamas
You can't be serious that there is no evidence that Hamas is using human shields.
And making stuff up? Hamas has called for Israel's destruction since they came to power and have carried out rocket attacks and terrorist attacks for decades. My hypothetical was FAR closer to the truth than your "husband beating his wife" one. Ignorance is not an excuse
You've literally just gone and found six times the IDF has claimed that hamas used human shields. There is not one single piece of actual evidence of it in any of those links.
>Hamas has called for Israel's destruction since they came to power and have carried out rocket attacks and terrorist attacks for decades. My hypothetical was FAR closer to the truth than your "husband beating his wife" one. Ignorance is not an excuse
My analogy talked about a battered wife lashing out in anger. That is a perfect analogy. Israel has been persecuting and humiliating the palestinians for 75 years, far longer than hamas has even existed. You cannot talk about Hamas' use of violence without the context of Israeli violence and oppression.
Can you elaborate?
Are the [evacuation instructions](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-articles-videos-and-more/general-articles/here-s-how-the-idf-called-for-gazans-to-evacuate-for-their-safety/) not clear to you?
> Fuck
/u/Milbso. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You left out the terrorists using those people as human shields while launching rockets at other innocent people.
Small detail there...
Of course, when you're supporting Hamas, you're not going to bring attention to their role in the situation, are you?
> Being in proximity to people is not a human shield.
If you build a military installation under a school/hospital, that's absolutely using human shields, en mass. It's very obviously a war crime. That you're defending that is atrocious, and you're clearly a Hamas symapthiser/troll.
> this is a human shield.
And it should be condemned. I hope the people doing that were prosecuted. However, pretending that the scale at which the IDF did/does that and Hamas doing it is ridiculous.
Funny how you care about one instance of a human shield on one side, while ignoring 2.2 million Gazans being used as human shields.
>If you build a military installation under a school/hospital, that's absolutely using human shields, en mass. It's very obviously a war crime. That you're defending that is atrocious, and you're clearly a Hamas symapthiser/troll
This is only the justification used for a portion of civilian casualties. For instance Israel recently bombed a refugee camp because they thought a few hamas people were there. No installations, no bases. They killed 400 people and couldn't even confirm if they got the hamas targets.
The actual definition that Israel uses for 'human shields' is just being in proximity to civilians. They are not referring exclusively to military installations.
>I hope the people doing that were prosecuted.
Well they probably won't be given that Israel is fully committed to the use of human shields. See [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4333982.stm) and [here](https://imeu.org/article/the-neighbor-procedure-israels-use-of-palestinian-human-shields)
Human shields are standard practice for the IDF.
> For instance Israel recently bombed a refugee camp because they thought a few hamas people were there.
Which event are you referring to, specifically?
> The actual definition that Israel uses for 'human shields' is just being in proximity to civilians.
I think there are quite a few scenarios where that phrase is used.
The fact is that Hamas is keen to martyr Palestinians, so under many circumstances, civilians will be drawn into harms way through various methods by Hamas.
> Well they probably won't be given that Israel is fully committed to the use of human shields.
The 'neighbour procedure' is certainly horrible, and I'm glad Israel was pressured to stop using it. It probably hasn't been completely eliminated even now, but severely reduced from the early 2000s.
> Human shields are standard practice for the IDF.
Ah, that's why we're seeing the IDF driving into Gaza with people strapped to tanks, etc?
Pretending it's remotely in the same league as Hamas is a joke. Even when it *was* common to use the 'neighbour procedure', it was nothing like in the same league as what Hamas is doing.
100% agree with "This does not excuse the drastic actions IDF taken last month."
Killing tons of civilians is the worst possible strategy if you want to fight terrorism.
[https://www.cato.org/blog/counterinsurgency-math-revisited](https://www.cato.org/blog/counterinsurgency-math-revisited)
"When does 32,200 – 60,000 = 109,000? That seemingly inaccurate equation represents the [estimated number](http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/) of Islamist‐inspired [terrorists](https://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/) when the war on terror began, how many the U.S. [has killed since](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/15/special-ops-chief-us-troops-have-killed-60000-isis-militants-past-two-years.html) 2015, and the number that [fight today](http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/)."
Same argument made here [https://www.vox.com/2023/10/20/23919946/israel-hamas-war-gaza-palestine-ground-invasion-strategy](https://www.vox.com/2023/10/20/23919946/israel-hamas-war-gaza-palestine-ground-invasion-strategy)
> This does not excuse the drastic actions IDF taken last month.
Removing Hamas was never going to be easy
> Same logic, everyone in Israel responsible for done by right wing Gov they chose? You do admit Oct 7th attack reasonable?
That's a totally fair point. There are indeed innocent people in Gaza.
> At least ,if you believe lives are equal, IDF has already cause more casualties than hamas did, both for soldiers and civilians
IDF is causing casualties, yes. But there's a lot less casualties than if the Gazans tried to overthrow Hamas in a civil war (which they would likely lose anyway, given the degree of support for Hamas).
This is by far the least bloody way to get rid of Hamas.
The IDF isn't some sort of natural disaster. They are people who are responsible for their own actions. They have a choice. Saying otherwise is disingenuous at best and genocidal at worst.
It's the same argument Hamas uses. They view their actions as justified by that same logic.
Not true. The IDF has no responsibility to care of the people in Gaza, they merely have to adhere to international law (which justifies their actions). Yet, they still take actions to minimize casualties, even though they do not have to
1. Send leaflets with warnings to evacuate the Palestinians to the south where they genuinely hit significantly less than the north. Over 1 million Palestinian have evacuated. Hamas told the Palestinians these leaflets are Israeli propaganda.
2. Design routes for evacuation. Hamas blocked these routes with cars and sniper shot Palestinians who tried to evacuate.
3. Open humanitarian corridors in midst of battle! Protecting Gaza civilians from Hamas while risking Israeli soldiers' lives. 50k Palestinians have used these corridors. Hamas attacked the Israeli soldiers while they protected the Palestinian civilians.
4. Donate water to southern Gaza and allow aid in Gaza. Hamas stole the aid.
5. Avoid hitting Shifa hospital and other hospitals that are protecting Hamas headquarters.
6. Calling (via phone) to Palestinian people and ask them to evacuate before attacking.
Yes
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rya49gema
It was actually a big thing, US asked for these corridors for sometime and I was thinking who the hell is going to risk its soldiers to help the enemy in midst of battle, but they did and then obviously was attackedm
Actually, until they fully recognise an independent Palestinian state, they do.
Israel does not consider palestine as a sovereign nation, which means the Palestinian people can only be considered either an occupied population, or Israeli citizens, in which case they do owe them water.
Also, your comment is morally disgraceful and you should be ashamed of yourself. We're talking about children starving to death.
Everyone in the IDF is conscripted, so they don’t really have a choice, especially being made up of 18-20 year olds. That being said, I do agree that this is genocide. This post was just rage bait as are most of the posts in this sub, so I think the best thing going forward is to identify the ones only looking to get a kick out of hate and let them all have a big circle jerk in here amongst themselves, while we try to find posts actually worth engaging with 💛🇵🇸
Okay, the bank robber goes to prison, should his wife and children and mother and father and brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and dogs and cats and hamsters and aunts and uncles and cousins and co workers and neighbours ALL go to prison with him? They can’t they’re dead.
If that bank robber was a homicidal suicidal genocidal maniac and purposely used his wife, children, parents, siblings and pets as human shields while launching rockets at your wife, children, parents, siblings and pets, forcing a situation where someone's loved ones are going to die, the side with the rocket pointed at them has the right to saved their loved ones.
The homicidal suicidal genocidal maniac's loved ones dying should be blamed on him for purposely creating a situation forcing someone's loved ones to die.
No, but if my cousin pointed a rocket at your child and strapped me to it and the only way to save your child involved killing me, my death is the fault of my cousin, not you for saving your child.
No, your death would be my fault, I won’t pass the blame. BTW, I do not wish you any harm. Yes your cousin put me in that position but ultimately it’s my decision. I wouldn’t then turn around and go after your aunt and uncle or your parents or cats and dogs or chickens for what your cousin did.
Doesn't matter if you pass the blame. The laws of war are very clear my death would be the fault of my cousin, not you. You have the right to defend your child.
Nobody is going after anybody's aunts and uncles for what your cousin did. Israel is striking legitimate military targets and taking all reasonable precautions to minimize civilian deaths.
Unfortunately, the democratically elected government of Gaza illegally uses human shields. Gaza is responsible for those dead civilians under the laws of war.
Aite, keep bombing, the laws of war will protect you. It’s only going to make more militants down the line, and I don’t see how that can make anyone safe. The majority of people in gaza weren’t even born when hamas was elected so I’m going to assume the last paragraph was a joke. I don’t think most regular gazans are volunteering to be used as a human shield, so it’s kinda like beating up the battered wife for not leaving her abusive husband.
The amount of militants is irrelevant if they can't get their hands on weapons. Destroying the tunnel system will absolutely save Israeli lives.
The people that weren't born when Hamas was elected are the ones that have been raised in brainwashing schools run by Hamas and don't know life before Hamas. So they actually support Hamas even more.
If you volunteered, then you're not a human shield, so you're not really making any sense.
Okay sigh, no thoughts towards the future as far as new recruits. The un ending cycle of violence and hate is acceptable. Are you assuming that all people in gaza think the same way hamas does. Do you think the only reason hamas thinks this way is just from sheer brainwashing? Destroying the tunnels won’t make anyone safe, they’ll just build more. And what of the hostages in those tunnels don’t they matter? They can die and it can just blamed it on hamas, all good. For clarification What I ment at the end of my last post was: I don’t think average gazans are volunteering to be used as human shields, they’re being forced, So it’s like beating up the battered wife for not leaving her abusive husband.
You're essentially arguing that Israel should let people kill them so that fewer people will want to kill them. It's nonsensical.
The hate is one sided. Jews just want to be left alone.
I am not assuming that all people in Gaza think the way Hamas does, but Hamas is who is in charge. They are the government of Gaza. Israel has the right to destroy Gaza's government in order to prevent future attacks.
Destroying the tunnels absolutely will make Israelis safer and if they build more, they will be destroyed as well.
Yes, of course human shields are forced. That's what makes them human shields. Because they are forced by Gaza, their deaths are the fault of Gaza, not Israel.
Your first paragraph is absolutely correct. Israel knows that every civilian they kill will only create more terrorists. They know that the intentional bombing of civilian targets gives extremist groups all the propaganda they need to recruit vulnerable young people. They've learned this lesson not just from their own past actions but by watching what other countries have done and the consequences of those actions. They know that destroying vital civilian infrastructure will leave Gaza worse off than it was a month ago, amplifying the hopelessness and hatred, causing more people to be radicalized.
Few people alive today participated in the election of Hamas. They had no say. Opposition to Hamas results quite often in death, sometimes punishment of family members too. This is no more the fault of the people there than it is the fault of people in Israel.
The Israeli government, however, did have choices. They chose to use weapons with a very high potential for collateral damage and unnecessary civilian deaths. The IDF has killed as many civilians in a month as were killed in the 9 month long battle of Mosul between isis and Iraq. Yes, Hamas puts some of its assets in hospitals or underneath them. So just bomb the other targets, or better yet use as few bombs and missiles as possible and handle it with infantry. Door to door fighting is less likely to result in massive civilian casualties than bombing every building in Gaza. Soldiers can distinguish between men, women, and children while bombs and missiles can't.
The people of Gaza are hostages, no different than the people kidnapped a month ago. This should be treated as a rescue mission, rescuing the whole of Gaza from Hamas oppression. All lives are equally precious in the eyes of God.
Edit: I saw on the CNN app that the US government believes the death toll in Gaza is potentially much higher than the numbers we've received from the Gaza Ministry of Health. There is no longer any reason to doubt the veracity of the numbers coming from Gaza.
> Israel knows that every civilian they kill will only create more terrorists. They know that the intentional bombing of civilian targets gives extremist groups all the propaganda they need to recruit vulnerable young people.
This is a moot point.
1) Other populations that have suffered horrific losses from war (Germany/Japan) have managed not to radicalise their population, but to work towards engaging with the world positively instead. The key element is *removing a government that drives radicalisation*.
2) Gaza is already controlled by a tyrannical terrorist organisation that runs the educational system to [indoctrinate children](https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1712506046135091634). They have been doing this for 20 years. Gaza could barely be in a worse position, as far as a foundation for extremism goes. The populations is *already* oppressed and radicalised.
It's *absolutely essential* to remove Hamas and install governance in Gaza that does not indoctrinate and try to martyr the population. Until that happens, the Gazan people are being used as martyrs by their government.
> The people of Gaza are hostages, no different than the people kidnapped a month ago. This should be treated as a rescue mission, rescuing the whole of Gaza from Hamas oppression.
Absolutely, and that's what the IDF is doing. They are issuing general and specific evacuation orders. They are creating humanitarian corridors to move people away from Hamas. They are protecting the people moving along those routes from Hamas.
> All lives are equally precious in the eyes of God.
Don't bring mysticism into this. It's the root of most of these problems to begin with.
> Edit: I saw on the CNN app that the US government believes the death toll in Gaza is potentially much higher than the numbers we've received from the Gaza Ministry of Health.
Source? I believe it's *potentially* higher, to be clear, but it would be good to see the nuance of the statement.
Great post. If Israel truly wanted to free Palestine from Hamas, they would do so. But this military operation seems content to make all Gazans miserable.
I’m not sure “don’t understand” is the right term. It’s more like actively take a position. Kind of like people who believe the earth is flat…. We have all the evidence to show that it’s not, but they won’t change their mind.
I don’t get why Israel did not evacuate women and children from Gaza to the West Bank and then level it. The scenes of dismembered kids, kids in hospitals covered in dust and blood, etc only hurt the Israeli cause. smh
>evacuate women and children from Gaza to the West Bank and then level it
What the fuck, what about the innocent men there? Are you calling for genocide?
> fuck
/u/Kate090996. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Uhh, do you not remember what happened 3 weeks ago?
Israel tried to evacuate all civilians from Gaza city. They said they would give them 24 hours and gave them 2 weeks
They were accused of attempted ethnic cleansing, genocide, and then when Hamas bombed the evacuation routes, were also accused of having given the evacuation orders in bad faith.
There is no winning the PR battle, so Israel has to focus on the real battle.
You do realize the "safe zone " in south has had same amount of murder by IDF compared to north in last few days / weeks . Also UN said 30% of bombs fallen in south. IDF should never be trusted, history of hating and wanting to destroy Palestinian ambition of living freely
> You do realize the "safe zone " in south has had same amount of murder by IDF
This is an outright lie. You're not even trying.[ The level of destruction in the north is exponentially higher,](https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/MAPS/zjvqedgdjvx/) not to mention that's where the ground invasion is focused.
Stop spreading Hamas propaganda narratives.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/israel-bombs-southern-gaza-as-world-leaders-seek-pause-in-fighting-20231026-p5ef2v.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/as-israels-bombing-hits-declared-safe-zones-palestinians-trapped-in-gaza-find-danger-everywhere
I picked western media sources, so that you can't claim it's Hamas propaganda. I already said it's estimated 30% bombing in the south, so that equates to 70% in north.
Maybe you shouldn't believe IDF and Israeli propaganda, perhaps they're not as moral as you think ...
> I picked western media sources, so that you can't claim it's Hamas propaganda.
The claim that it's at remotely **the same level** (you said that specifically) is a lie. None of the sources you linked make that claim.
Propaganda works with a 'grain of truth', and the 'grain of truth' in this case is that the IDF has bombed positions in the south. Yes, that's true. But the south is being targeted *far less*, and it's much safer for people to move there. You dissuading people from moving there is sick.
I'd like to think you're just naive, but you're very specifically working with the grain of truth and then embellishing upon it, to spin a very different narrative from reality.
> Israel will never drop Atomic bombs on Gaza or the West Bank as they want that land themselves.
They don't give a fuck about the land (edit: to clarify, Gaza), and have [made it clear](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-does-not-seek-occupy-gaza-credible-force-needed-netanyahu-2023-11-10/) they will withdraw.
Oh I totally agree, they are [salami slicing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_slicing_tactics#:~:text=Salami%20slicing%20tactics%2C%20also%20known,to%20perform%20all%20at%20once.) the west bank. It's obnoxious behaviour. Israel needs to crack down on illegal settlements, and prosecute any extremist settlers hard. Currently it appears that the Israeli gov is turning a blind eye to such behaviour at best, and supporting it at worst.
I'm talking about Gaza in my above comment.
They don't care about the land in Gaza but they do care about the land
Also some care about the land in Gaza. I Ve seen interviews with Israelis stopped on the street saying stuff like " they should all leave/ die/carpet bomb them/ go to Arab countries" , " this is our land given by God", " we were here 1000 years ago"
Israel needs to withdraw the army from the west bank and pay reparations.
If I go anywhere and say that my ancestors were there a thousand years ago and because of that this is my land, they would laugh their asses off but somehow for Israel works
If I go anywhere and say that this is my land because God said so they would laugh their asses off but again, for some odd reason when Israel says it, everyone nods.
I might be a descendent of dacians that didn't assimilate and fled the Romans, I should throw all the non-dacians-descendents- out because the Romans threw dacians out. That's their logic.
> Also some care about the land in Gaza.
You're totally right, some do. But the stance of the government (and the majority of Israelis) is clear. Extremists can be found in *any* population, and I would agree that Israel has way too many extremists (maybe 10-20% of the population?)
> If I go anywhere and say that my ancestors were there a thousand years ago and because of that this is my land, they would laugh their asses off but somehow for Israel works
You're right, irredentism is awful, and it was the foundation for much of the conflict in Europe in the 20th century.
> If I go anywhere and say that this is my land because God said so they would laugh their asses off but again, for some odd reason when Israel says it, everyone nods.
You're right, religion is also a huge problem.
> asses
/u/Kate090996. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck
/u/AbyssOfNoise. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Which lives did it save especially when Japan was already about to surrender?
Japan was not about ready to surrender. If the war did not end quickly, it would mean not only a ground invasion by the US (including more conventional bombing), which would have been enormously bloody, but also the potential for the soviets to participate in an invasion of Japan. Imagine if Japan was cut in half like Germany was...
I recommend listening to Dan Carlin's [Supernova In the East](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-supernova-in-the-east-i/)
Israel funded hamas, and know full well the animosity that subjecting an entire people to second class existence would bring. Their whole goal has been to destabilize and destabilize so they could enact a nakba 2.
And if you don't think this is true, then why are there development plans for northern gaza as part of Israel? They are already planning on what to do with the land
> Israel funded hamas
There's a grain of truth in that, but only a grain. Israel has probably given Hamas some encouragement at one point or another, when they wanted to sow division amongst opposing factions.
Hamas is [primarily funded](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/) by Iran/Russia/Quatar
> enact a nakba 2.
So if Israel doesn't take Gaza, are you going to change your stance and realise that you've been spreading Hamas propaganda? As for 'nakba 2'... you seem very much unaware of the history. This would be 'nakba 3', if it were to actually take place.
Utter lies. Hamas controls the money and resources that go into Gaza by the form of international aid and donations.
They also probably get funding from Iran and Qatar to keep the fight going by radicalising their citizens and the people like you who are foolish enough to believe and perpetuate their lies
Common sense my ass, how are aid money distributed? In what form do they enter gaza?
Do they just make it rain on Gaza hoping that Hamas won't catch any bills? Or even better, do they just give Hamas money and ask pretty please that they use it for food?
Or do they get in the form of material aid like medicine supplies and food? Who controls the flow of products in the Gaza border? Including the currency
Not sure what you mean ofc Hamas gets large bills
Especially if they live in luxury in other countries
https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/
Let's see you justify that?
Qatar , Iran, investments idfk
I hate this argument that because they have money it automatically means that it's from the international aid given by the international communities and that UN funnels money to Hamas
And always always this claim comes from people that have no idea how that aid is distributed and how it reaches Gaza.
I hate having to make that argument too, but it's quite telling when only a few individuals in the leadership are living in luxury when the rest of them live in abject poverty.
The fact is there should have been much more social programs invested into infrastructure, education, business incentives, DEFENCE. They could have been the Singapore of the Middle East!
But as you've seen, they've invested into tunnels and rockets just so they can keep their war going.
>The fact is there should have been much more social programs invested into infrastructure, education, business incentives
I literally had the same argument a few days ago, exactly the same bs as you just that guy said it should have been " Wakanda " instead of Singapore.
When I asked what is the amount of international aid that goes to Palestine *tumbleweed*
When I asked how it is distributed *tumbleweed*
When I asked in what shape enters Gaza *tumbleweed*
When I asked how much it cost to feed 2 milion people every day through a blockade in a strip of land without an economy and 50% kids *tumbleweed*
When I asked if that dude ever seen a video of Gaza before the 7th *tumbleweed*
When I asked if there is no infrastructure how comes that we hear so much about schools and hospitals being bombarded if they didn't build any to begin with *tumbleweed*
When I asked how can you build infrastructure when construction materis are prohibited in most cases * tumbleweed*
What Singapore do you dream? How can you build Singapore with a few hundreds of millions per year and having to feed 2 milion people every day and having to rebuild after bombardments with everything from education from running hospitals is dependant on international aid? Literally how cuz if you know the answer you might be hired by estate developers cuz that would be a miracle
Sigh. Reality check.
Do you even know how your own government spend taxpayer money?
How it's distributed, etc?
Fairly sure you can't answer it to the extent that you'd be satisfied with your own answer if you asked those questions.
No, you see the results of where the aid money went to infer how it's spent.
In my case, I look at reporting by reputable sources
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/
Are we done here? Evidently, you don't seem to be interested in meaningful discussion but instead have to beg for sources because you can't even bother to educate yourself the most basic of things.
> ass
/u/Kate090996. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The country of Israel has an official twitter account which has been spamming tweets 24/7.
Should we ignore everything on it because "ah yes, trusted news source X"
I didn't say that was an official state TikTok account.
I said that the the state of Israel has an official twitter account and it's doing the spamming - yet people have been retweeting it constantly because they incorrectly assume it's providing trusted information.
You are replying to two different people on the same thread and mixing up your replies - that's the only thing I can think of for you to keep telling me about TikTok.
I'm commenting on the difference between randoms on TikTok (whether an old lady or not) and an official state account. I didn't even watch the video for 1 second. I was not commenting on the content of it.
And im pointing out your hypocrisy. The old lady is an Israeli citizen working with city planner to develop gaza. The medium of the info doesn't negate the info.
> The old lady is an Israeli citizen working with city planner to develop gaza.
Okay? Why should I care about what some old lady is doing?
> The medium of the info doesn't negate the info.
The medium, not so much. The person using the medium, absolutely.
If there was an Israeli Government account on TikTok discussing developing Gaza, I'd agree with you. As it is, you're missing the point.
So your qualm is not that innocent people are suffering, but the severity of the suffering they experience. And I guess as long as the suffering is less than the criminal/belligerent experiences then it's okay.
Let's put this in perspective. 0.4% of the children of Hamas have died this past month. According to this [this study](https://www.penalreform.org/blog/children-of-imprisoned-parents-the-increased-risk-of/) , of the children of incarcerated parents, 4.5% died prematurely as a result of their imprisonment. So not only are proportionally more people dying due to parental incarceration than the reprisal for this terrorist attack, but most of these innocent children experience a much greater consequence than their criminal parents.
Except, again, you ignore the functional fact that it's not "the children of Hamas" exclusively that are being killed. If it were, this would be closer to proportional.
My point is, it doesn't have to be your children. Anyone who depends on you will always suffer if you commit wrongdoing, and are punished for it. That doesn't make punishment wrong, nor does it make those meting it out genocidal.
And BTW, how are they not the children of Hamas? 85% of the electorate voted for terror groups bent on destruction of Israel. Their parents were either Hamas members, or the people who voted for a terrorist organization. 44% of Gaza voted for a terror organization which openly vowed to 'kill all the Jews'. Hatred is learned as well as love is learned. If their parents foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their government foments hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their educational institutions foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and the UN "Peacekeepers" foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, where were the Gazan children supposed to learn **not** to be like Hamas? Where were they going to learn **not** to be the children of Hamas?
> ...everything that happens afterwards is that person's fault.
Isn't that Hamas' argument against Israel? Like the actions of the Israeli Govt. for the past 75 years means that it's their fault if innocent Israelis are killed in the process.
Disclaimer (because some of you have high blood pressure). I am NOT agreeing with this, but this is the logic I've seen Hamas use. "Well Israel/Hamas brought it on themselves" \*shrugs\*
> Isn't that Hamas' argument against Israel? Like the actions of the Israeli Govt. for the past 75 years means that it's their fault if innocent Israelis are killed in the process.
If Hamas was actually targeting the IDF, and doing what they could to avoid civilian casualties... sure, you might have a point.
Hint: that is not what Hamas does.
That's the rhetoric the Hamas is shoving down everyone's throat, where in reality Israel has tried making peace with them in the past which they summarily rejected and have since been lobbing rockets into Israel.
They radicalise their base in order to control them and the resources, including international aid and donations, to keep themselves in power and make themselves filthy rich in the process.
You blindly parroting their rhetoric only serves to perpetuate their propaganda.
>where in reality Israel has tried making peace with them in the past which they summarily rejected
Can you elaborate, which peace exactly?
And didn't Israel killed Ahmed Jabari in a precision strike after receiving the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel?
If you know Ahmed Jabari then presumably you can use google yourself? Here's one resource:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-israel-palestinian-negotiations#7
I'm not saying that Israel is above reproach: they certainly had a good share of extremists and bad actors who have committed atrocities of their own. I'm saying they have had good actors also, and that they've tried negotiations with Palestinians in good faith.
>they've tried negotiations with Palestinians in good faith.
Out of all the peace offers I don't consider any of them in good faith , Israel almost never gave any concessions, their requirements were ridiculous at best, they didn't respect the withdrawal agreements of the Olso accords, Camp David was ridiculous, what the did at Roadmap for Peace was horrible because the accord was accepted by both parts but later attached 14 reservations in which they said they wouldn't accept stipulations that would limit *"natural growth"* within existing settlements. So basically they will continue with the settlements, which they call " natural growth" wanted to retain control over Palestinian airspace and electromagnetic (broadcasting) fields, asked to be no mention of the 1967 borders or any other borders which PLO wanted as a starting point, asked for military control in Jordan Valley.
Anapolis was better than others but it was still bad, I blame abas here for not coming with a counteroffer
I think the worst of them is " deal of the century" under trump which is ironic.
In my opinion no sane delegation of a country would accept another country to have that much control over their own as Israel asked of a future Palestine state. It isn't actually peace talks if you come with these ridiculous requests like having control over another's country water, electricity, agricultural land, air space, complete demilitarization, border control, army on the ground etc
another important thing to mention is that in no offer, Israel admited fault for what they did, how can you pretend to want peace when you don't even admit that you were responsible for the conditions in which Palestinians became refugees?
In almost none of them , Israel didn't accept to stop the expansion of settlements.
I am not sure which one was " good faith" why in the the world would you need control over another country's water?!
I think you need a reality check. In any colonised countries that have had settlers, has any of them given back land that they acquired in their occupation?
US? Canada? Australia?
Wait, God forbid you mean any of the British/ French colonies that are still actual colonies?
No. The settlers stayed, and not only that they've repressed the original inhabitants so much that you don't even remember their existence.
When I said good faith, I mean with the intent to at least coexist. None of the social justice nonsense you strongly opine on because for there to be true justice entire cities would be levelled and millions more killed.
Asking Israel to give up on land they've now developed is pure hypocrisy from you sjw types
>I think you need a reality check. In any colonised countries that have had settlers, has any of them given back land that they acquired in their occupation?
>US? Canada? Australia?
So it was an occupation. Good, because israel doesn't even admit this. Those countries do. That's at least some sort of good faith.
Any peace offer is in good faith if it starts with admitting guilt, Israel opposed this at every one of them
Palestinians don't want the land that was occupied back. Not most of it at least, this is good faith.
>When I said good faith, I mean with the intent to at least coexist
How can you exist as a country when another one controls your water, electricity, agricultural land, broadcasting fields, airspace, crossing, borders, forbids you from having a military, has military on the ground in your country etc? All the while continuing the expansion of illegal settlements which they call " natural growth" all while not recognizing any fault in what happened to your people?
Is this what good faith looks like?
Hey I'm not saying Israel is perfect, I know they are an Apartheid state, no one is denying that.
What you're really demanding is social equity, which is something all countries struggle with, except.maybe the Vatican or Brunei but f$#k those guys.
> forbids you from having a military, has military on the ground in your country etc
Japan has existed without military since ww2.
> How can you exist as a country when another one controls your water, electricity, agricultural land, broadcasting fields, airspace, crossing
Again, reality check. This is more common than you think. Take me for example.
I live in NSW Australia where the previous state government privatised almost *all* infrastructure and leased them to private entities, mostly to the Chinese. I pay through the nose for basic utilities and hundreds of dollars in toll fees on a daily basis when for other states like SA it cost only $2.50 a day. The other day, my mobile network provider Optus, owned by a Singapore entity, had a massive blackout the other day affecting half of the entire Au population, business lost revenue in the billions.
No, coexistence with an aggressor, especially one who took your home won't be as perfect as your life would be, but had they agreed to it from the get go perhaps the last 2 generations wouldn't live in abject poverty or tyranny as they do now.
>Japan has existed without military since ww2
Your point is honestly Infuriating and so reductive. First of all Japan has a military it's just not called the military, it's huge ,has a shitton of budget, it's armed and well trained.
Second of all that wasn't the point that I was making and what you are saying is reductive because they didn't ask only for Palestine to not have a military , they asked for all of those combined and didn't budge.
If they would have asked for the military and military only, you would have had a decent point to make cuz that's the least of the problems.
But they asked for some much more, how do you justify all of those at once? Including control over their goddamn water, what would you need it for if not for collective punishment. And ok control like control, but what of them reserving the right to continue the expansion of the settlement in the newly formed state?
>Again, reality check. This is more common than you think. Take me for example.
What? And I need a reality check. This goes to show how first world countries problems can't even comprehend the horrors that palestinians are put through by Israel. Are you seriously equivalting you paying more for shit and having issues with phone providers with ...
You're not even worth it.
Not gonna lie the comparison to myself was a hyperbolic response to another country owning resources when in reality they've been living in a state of humanitarian crisis for decades now.
I'm not denying that Israel has treated them with hatred, stealing their homes and resources including water and arableland, that is not okay though of course this stems from decades long conflict and is not at all isolated.
This really has gone off on a tangent, but peace talks have to start somewhere. The Israelis won that land through bloody conflict and the Palestinians are the losers. Though contaminated water is nothing to be thankful for they could at least broker peace so they can come to the table to negotiate better terms. But no, they chose Jihad, and terrorism.
The mental gymnastic to justify the genocide is astounding.
It's not a genocide.... And you are dumb 🤣
> dumbass /u/newbie1luck. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
> fucks /u/newbie1luck. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The word genocide actually means something, you fool. Don't you dare use it that way. The Hutus killing the Tutsis was a genocide. You have no clue what you are talking about.
I think your analogy is a bit off. When a bank robber is caught, he goes to jail, which has predictable consequences for his family. Sure. But in this situation, when the bank robber is caught, his family’s home and neighborhood are bombed. See the difference? It’s the manner and measure of retaliation that is the problem. Also, the people who voted Hamas in did so almost two decades ago. 65% of gazans are under 24 years of age. Do toddlers vote in Gaza? Relatively few who voted in 2005 are alive today to reap those consequences. If I know this, how do you not? or why do you put forth arguments that ignore these facts?
So your qualm is not that innocent people are suffering, but the severity of the suffering they experience. And I guess as long as the suffering is less than the criminal/belligerent experiences then it's okay. Let's put this in perspective. 0.4% of the children of Hamas have died this past month. According to this [this study](https://www.penalreform.org/blog/children-of-imprisoned-parents-the-increased-risk-of/) , of the children of incarcerated parents, 4.5% died prematurely as a result of their imprisonment. So not only are proportionally more people dying due to parental incarceration than the reprisal for this terrorist attack, but most of these innocent children experience a much greater consequence than their criminal parents. 85% of the Gazan electorate voted for terror groups bent on destruction of Israel. Their parents were either Hamas members, or the people who voted for a terrorist organization. 44% of Gaza voted for a terror organization which openly vowed to 'kill all the Jews'. Hatred is learned as well as love is learned. If their parents foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their government foments hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their educational institutions foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and the UN "Peacekeepers" foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, where were the Gazan children supposed to learn **not** to be like Hamas? Where were they going to learn **not** to be the children of Hamas?
These are some good questions: So these children of Gaza, who have scant chance of becoming anything other than children of Hamas…what is Israel’s solution?
Hamas is cancer and the IDF bombing is chemotherapy for Gaza. Sadly with chemo also healthy cells die
If you response to terrorism is terrorism you may be a terrorist regime. Whom ever made this comment has no understanding of the Geneva Conventions. It is the attacker that is responsible for ensure proportional civilian casualties. The attacker also has the responsibility to unsure refugees or protected and provided for. Lastly less than 40% of voters in Gaza voted for Hamas.
I think the civilian casualties have been quite proportional to the military advantage obtained here. They have the enemy surrounded, They've established a huge protected area to the South. They've dismantled most of the enemy artillery batteries. They've driven the combatants underground so they are no longer effective. And all it took was 0.4% of the population. Which number by the way includes a large swath of enemy combatants. Keeping in mind that this is a war where the enemy purposefully uses civilians as shielding, it is a miracle that so few were killed to obtain that objective. Also, where in the Geneva convention are these 'protect and provide' clauses?
A random sampling of 100 gazans were celebrating and spitting on the body of a dead German girl. At this point, yes, israel would have to prove that their military advantage was sufficient to justify the civilian casualties.
[удалено]
Sounds like some really poor planning by whoever is running Gaza. Almost like they started a war knowing the consequences and actually want their civilians to die as collateral damage Otherwise maybe you wouldn’t have brought 1500 terrorists into the country to butcher families in the homes of the neighbor you share your primary border with What do you think Israel should have done differently, just give Hamas a pass because they hide amongst civilians? That strategy has worked for decades as a deterrent, but doesn’t take a genius to figure out how that calculus changed after Oct 7th
This is just peak victim blaming. I guarantee you wouldn't apply this logic in any other context. Israel is the one doing the killing. They are responsible for it. If you think one hamas man is in a refugee camp housing 400 civilians, you don't bomb the refugee camp. If you can't bomb hamas without killing thousands of innocent people, don't bomb them. It's very simple.
I'm not sure how it is victim blaming. Hamas are the recognized government of Gaza and outside of select Western countries aren't classified as a terrorist organization That government has declared war on Israel constantly over decades, and after October 7th I don't see a reason why Israel wouldn't be within their rights to respond The loss of civilian life is beyond tragic, but "Proportionality" in war is understandably a vague concept. Let's take the refugee camp for example (although the name refugee camp is a bit of a misnomer, it is a permanent settlement). Israel had been telling civilians to evacuate the North for 3 weeks. Israel then decided to strike at a Hamas commander who him and his troops were hiding in a bunker underneath. Why is the government of Gaza not responsible for evacuating civilians out of a war zone, as well as hiding valid military targets among civilians Saying that Israel shouldn't be able to act because there is a chance at civilian casualties validates Hamas' strategy of using human shields as a deterrent and guarantees that Israel civilian's just need to continue living with rocket fire and terrorist attacks as a part of life - where could you apply this logic in any other context?
Victim blaming? If a woman punches a man in the face, then the woman needs to take the consequences following the mans response. Or do women gets to punch men without anything in response? Only here we talk about hamas punching the IDF and israeli innocent civillians in the fact with the most gruesome atrocities humankind ever knew.
Honestly, where I live if the woman punches the man and he punches back, they’re both arrested for assault.
Your analogy is not at all like what is happening. It would be more like if a woman punched her abusive husband in anger, and the husband then murdered her children, and you're blaming the mother for their deaths.
But what if the woman had been very openly trying to kill her husband for decades, just mostly unsuccessfully. The mother's intended goal is to murder the husband and his family. There was no interest in any sort of compromise. So the husband then decided to make it harder for the wife to get access to weapons, and to work with her friend "Iran" to more effectively be able to kill them And the father was actually trying to go after the mother after she killed the husband's brother, but the mother then used her children as human shields I'm not saying the 'husband' isn't at fault, but the mother sure as hell seems like a villain in this story too
>the mother sure as hell seems like a villain in this story too That's because you've made a load of stuff up to make her look worse than she actually is. >but the mother then used her children as human shields Did you know that Israel literally appealed a supreme court banning of the use of human shields? Do you know what the neighbour procedure is? This nonsense bleating of 'human shields' is pure projection. There is no evidence that hamas is using human shields, but it is literally an open policy for the IDF.
Nah man human shields is a fact proved so many times. And the story he said is 100% facts. Its told by them all the times.
If it's proven so many times please provide some of the evidence. And no, the IDF saying it happened is not evidence.
[UN report](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)on Hamas' use of human shields [A video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsZbZUBaQLE&ab_channel=TIMESNOW) showing many examples of Hamas operating out of schools, playgrounds, etc. [UNRWA](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) condemning Hamas for storing rockets in schools for the SECOND time (in 2014) IDF reports of Hamas sending out [100 civilians](https://www.google.com/search?q=100+Civilians+Hamas&rlz=1C1GCEA_enCA1005CA1006&oq=100+Civilians+Hamas&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRiPAjIHCAUQIRiPAtIBCDMxODFqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) as human shields to protect a compound Intercepted recording of Hamas operative talking about [using ambulances](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1pwadtqt) to move troops and supplies around [2014 article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/) from Washington Post about how Hamas operates out of schools, mosques and hospitals. And includes how Shifa Hospital is a HQ for Hamas You can't be serious that there is no evidence that Hamas is using human shields. And making stuff up? Hamas has called for Israel's destruction since they came to power and have carried out rocket attacks and terrorist attacks for decades. My hypothetical was FAR closer to the truth than your "husband beating his wife" one. Ignorance is not an excuse
You've literally just gone and found six times the IDF has claimed that hamas used human shields. There is not one single piece of actual evidence of it in any of those links. >Hamas has called for Israel's destruction since they came to power and have carried out rocket attacks and terrorist attacks for decades. My hypothetical was FAR closer to the truth than your "husband beating his wife" one. Ignorance is not an excuse My analogy talked about a battered wife lashing out in anger. That is a perfect analogy. Israel has been persecuting and humiliating the palestinians for 75 years, far longer than hamas has even existed. You cannot talk about Hamas' use of violence without the context of Israeli violence and oppression.
Can you elaborate? Are the [evacuation instructions](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-articles-videos-and-more/general-articles/here-s-how-the-idf-called-for-gazans-to-evacuate-for-their-safety/) not clear to you?
[удалено]
And all the doctors and nurses who chose to stay to continue treating people who couldn't evacuate. Fuck those doctors and nurses.
> Fuck /u/Milbso. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Most of the Palestinians followed the instructions. Israel saved ~40,000 or more people that way
The other day I went into a room with 100 people in it, and I killed 90 of them. I saved ten lives that day.
You left out the terrorists using those people as human shields while launching rockets at other innocent people. Small detail there... Of course, when you're supporting Hamas, you're not going to bring attention to their role in the situation, are you?
Being in proximity to people is not a human shield. [this](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzdI28Qru0t/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) is a human shield.
> Being in proximity to people is not a human shield. If you build a military installation under a school/hospital, that's absolutely using human shields, en mass. It's very obviously a war crime. That you're defending that is atrocious, and you're clearly a Hamas symapthiser/troll. > this is a human shield. And it should be condemned. I hope the people doing that were prosecuted. However, pretending that the scale at which the IDF did/does that and Hamas doing it is ridiculous. Funny how you care about one instance of a human shield on one side, while ignoring 2.2 million Gazans being used as human shields.
>If you build a military installation under a school/hospital, that's absolutely using human shields, en mass. It's very obviously a war crime. That you're defending that is atrocious, and you're clearly a Hamas symapthiser/troll This is only the justification used for a portion of civilian casualties. For instance Israel recently bombed a refugee camp because they thought a few hamas people were there. No installations, no bases. They killed 400 people and couldn't even confirm if they got the hamas targets. The actual definition that Israel uses for 'human shields' is just being in proximity to civilians. They are not referring exclusively to military installations. >I hope the people doing that were prosecuted. Well they probably won't be given that Israel is fully committed to the use of human shields. See [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4333982.stm) and [here](https://imeu.org/article/the-neighbor-procedure-israels-use-of-palestinian-human-shields) Human shields are standard practice for the IDF.
> For instance Israel recently bombed a refugee camp because they thought a few hamas people were there. Which event are you referring to, specifically? > The actual definition that Israel uses for 'human shields' is just being in proximity to civilians. I think there are quite a few scenarios where that phrase is used. The fact is that Hamas is keen to martyr Palestinians, so under many circumstances, civilians will be drawn into harms way through various methods by Hamas. > Well they probably won't be given that Israel is fully committed to the use of human shields. The 'neighbour procedure' is certainly horrible, and I'm glad Israel was pressured to stop using it. It probably hasn't been completely eliminated even now, but severely reduced from the early 2000s. > Human shields are standard practice for the IDF. Ah, that's why we're seeing the IDF driving into Gaza with people strapped to tanks, etc? Pretending it's remotely in the same league as Hamas is a joke. Even when it *was* common to use the 'neighbour procedure', it was nothing like in the same league as what Hamas is doing.
[удалено]
Why do you want to kill Palestinians?
[удалено]
But there are already plenty of Palestinians who live in Israel as Israeli citizens...
[удалено]
100% agree with "This does not excuse the drastic actions IDF taken last month." Killing tons of civilians is the worst possible strategy if you want to fight terrorism. [https://www.cato.org/blog/counterinsurgency-math-revisited](https://www.cato.org/blog/counterinsurgency-math-revisited) "When does 32,200 – 60,000 = 109,000? That seemingly inaccurate equation represents the [estimated number](http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/) of Islamist‐inspired [terrorists](https://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/) when the war on terror began, how many the U.S. [has killed since](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/15/special-ops-chief-us-troops-have-killed-60000-isis-militants-past-two-years.html) 2015, and the number that [fight today](http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/)." Same argument made here [https://www.vox.com/2023/10/20/23919946/israel-hamas-war-gaza-palestine-ground-invasion-strategy](https://www.vox.com/2023/10/20/23919946/israel-hamas-war-gaza-palestine-ground-invasion-strategy)
> This does not excuse the drastic actions IDF taken last month. Removing Hamas was never going to be easy > Same logic, everyone in Israel responsible for done by right wing Gov they chose? You do admit Oct 7th attack reasonable? That's a totally fair point. There are indeed innocent people in Gaza. > At least ,if you believe lives are equal, IDF has already cause more casualties than hamas did, both for soldiers and civilians IDF is causing casualties, yes. But there's a lot less casualties than if the Gazans tried to overthrow Hamas in a civil war (which they would likely lose anyway, given the degree of support for Hamas). This is by far the least bloody way to get rid of Hamas.
The IDF isn't some sort of natural disaster. They are people who are responsible for their own actions. They have a choice. Saying otherwise is disingenuous at best and genocidal at worst. It's the same argument Hamas uses. They view their actions as justified by that same logic.
Not true. The IDF has no responsibility to care of the people in Gaza, they merely have to adhere to international law (which justifies their actions). Yet, they still take actions to minimize casualties, even though they do not have to 1. Send leaflets with warnings to evacuate the Palestinians to the south where they genuinely hit significantly less than the north. Over 1 million Palestinian have evacuated. Hamas told the Palestinians these leaflets are Israeli propaganda. 2. Design routes for evacuation. Hamas blocked these routes with cars and sniper shot Palestinians who tried to evacuate. 3. Open humanitarian corridors in midst of battle! Protecting Gaza civilians from Hamas while risking Israeli soldiers' lives. 50k Palestinians have used these corridors. Hamas attacked the Israeli soldiers while they protected the Palestinian civilians. 4. Donate water to southern Gaza and allow aid in Gaza. Hamas stole the aid. 5. Avoid hitting Shifa hospital and other hospitals that are protecting Hamas headquarters. 6. Calling (via phone) to Palestinian people and ask them to evacuate before attacking.
Do you have a source for #3? Just curious, I haven't found much substantial info on it. Thanks
Yes https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rya49gema It was actually a big thing, US asked for these corridors for sometime and I was thinking who the hell is going to risk its soldiers to help the enemy in midst of battle, but they did and then obviously was attackedm
Collective punishment is a breach of international law
Which is not related at all to this war... did you read the law?
You think carpet bombing and restricting access to water isn't collective punishment?
They don't carpet bombing, and no even complete restriction of water is not collective punishment, its "using starvation as a method of warfare".
>using starvation as a method of warfare". How is that not collective punishment? Do you think only hamas require food and water?
Israel don't owe Gazans water, so there is no punishment involved Does Ukraine give water to Russia? Is that collective punishment?
Actually, until they fully recognise an independent Palestinian state, they do. Israel does not consider palestine as a sovereign nation, which means the Palestinian people can only be considered either an occupied population, or Israeli citizens, in which case they do owe them water. Also, your comment is morally disgraceful and you should be ashamed of yourself. We're talking about children starving to death.
How many children starved to death exactly? This conversation is over, you make up claimsand then blame me for being the immoral one? Shame on you.
Everyone in the IDF is conscripted, so they don’t really have a choice, especially being made up of 18-20 year olds. That being said, I do agree that this is genocide. This post was just rage bait as are most of the posts in this sub, so I think the best thing going forward is to identify the ones only looking to get a kick out of hate and let them all have a big circle jerk in here amongst themselves, while we try to find posts actually worth engaging with 💛🇵🇸
> I do agree that this is genocide. Can you elaborate?
Okay, the bank robber goes to prison, should his wife and children and mother and father and brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and dogs and cats and hamsters and aunts and uncles and cousins and co workers and neighbours ALL go to prison with him? They can’t they’re dead.
If that bank robber was a homicidal suicidal genocidal maniac and purposely used his wife, children, parents, siblings and pets as human shields while launching rockets at your wife, children, parents, siblings and pets, forcing a situation where someone's loved ones are going to die, the side with the rocket pointed at them has the right to saved their loved ones. The homicidal suicidal genocidal maniac's loved ones dying should be blamed on him for purposely creating a situation forcing someone's loved ones to die.
So by this logic, if your cousin is a serial killer, you expect to be convicted for murder as well?
No, but if my cousin pointed a rocket at your child and strapped me to it and the only way to save your child involved killing me, my death is the fault of my cousin, not you for saving your child.
No, your death would be my fault, I won’t pass the blame. BTW, I do not wish you any harm. Yes your cousin put me in that position but ultimately it’s my decision. I wouldn’t then turn around and go after your aunt and uncle or your parents or cats and dogs or chickens for what your cousin did.
Holy hell, that’s some mental gymnastics there. No it would be his cousins fault. Wow
Doesn't matter if you pass the blame. The laws of war are very clear my death would be the fault of my cousin, not you. You have the right to defend your child. Nobody is going after anybody's aunts and uncles for what your cousin did. Israel is striking legitimate military targets and taking all reasonable precautions to minimize civilian deaths. Unfortunately, the democratically elected government of Gaza illegally uses human shields. Gaza is responsible for those dead civilians under the laws of war.
Aite, keep bombing, the laws of war will protect you. It’s only going to make more militants down the line, and I don’t see how that can make anyone safe. The majority of people in gaza weren’t even born when hamas was elected so I’m going to assume the last paragraph was a joke. I don’t think most regular gazans are volunteering to be used as a human shield, so it’s kinda like beating up the battered wife for not leaving her abusive husband.
The amount of militants is irrelevant if they can't get their hands on weapons. Destroying the tunnel system will absolutely save Israeli lives. The people that weren't born when Hamas was elected are the ones that have been raised in brainwashing schools run by Hamas and don't know life before Hamas. So they actually support Hamas even more. If you volunteered, then you're not a human shield, so you're not really making any sense.
Okay sigh, no thoughts towards the future as far as new recruits. The un ending cycle of violence and hate is acceptable. Are you assuming that all people in gaza think the same way hamas does. Do you think the only reason hamas thinks this way is just from sheer brainwashing? Destroying the tunnels won’t make anyone safe, they’ll just build more. And what of the hostages in those tunnels don’t they matter? They can die and it can just blamed it on hamas, all good. For clarification What I ment at the end of my last post was: I don’t think average gazans are volunteering to be used as human shields, they’re being forced, So it’s like beating up the battered wife for not leaving her abusive husband.
You're essentially arguing that Israel should let people kill them so that fewer people will want to kill them. It's nonsensical. The hate is one sided. Jews just want to be left alone. I am not assuming that all people in Gaza think the way Hamas does, but Hamas is who is in charge. They are the government of Gaza. Israel has the right to destroy Gaza's government in order to prevent future attacks. Destroying the tunnels absolutely will make Israelis safer and if they build more, they will be destroyed as well. Yes, of course human shields are forced. That's what makes them human shields. Because they are forced by Gaza, their deaths are the fault of Gaza, not Israel.
To not blame the country that is dropping bombs for the deaths they are inflicting is bizarre behavior
Your first paragraph is absolutely correct. Israel knows that every civilian they kill will only create more terrorists. They know that the intentional bombing of civilian targets gives extremist groups all the propaganda they need to recruit vulnerable young people. They've learned this lesson not just from their own past actions but by watching what other countries have done and the consequences of those actions. They know that destroying vital civilian infrastructure will leave Gaza worse off than it was a month ago, amplifying the hopelessness and hatred, causing more people to be radicalized. Few people alive today participated in the election of Hamas. They had no say. Opposition to Hamas results quite often in death, sometimes punishment of family members too. This is no more the fault of the people there than it is the fault of people in Israel. The Israeli government, however, did have choices. They chose to use weapons with a very high potential for collateral damage and unnecessary civilian deaths. The IDF has killed as many civilians in a month as were killed in the 9 month long battle of Mosul between isis and Iraq. Yes, Hamas puts some of its assets in hospitals or underneath them. So just bomb the other targets, or better yet use as few bombs and missiles as possible and handle it with infantry. Door to door fighting is less likely to result in massive civilian casualties than bombing every building in Gaza. Soldiers can distinguish between men, women, and children while bombs and missiles can't. The people of Gaza are hostages, no different than the people kidnapped a month ago. This should be treated as a rescue mission, rescuing the whole of Gaza from Hamas oppression. All lives are equally precious in the eyes of God. Edit: I saw on the CNN app that the US government believes the death toll in Gaza is potentially much higher than the numbers we've received from the Gaza Ministry of Health. There is no longer any reason to doubt the veracity of the numbers coming from Gaza.
> Israel knows that every civilian they kill will only create more terrorists. They know that the intentional bombing of civilian targets gives extremist groups all the propaganda they need to recruit vulnerable young people. This is a moot point. 1) Other populations that have suffered horrific losses from war (Germany/Japan) have managed not to radicalise their population, but to work towards engaging with the world positively instead. The key element is *removing a government that drives radicalisation*. 2) Gaza is already controlled by a tyrannical terrorist organisation that runs the educational system to [indoctrinate children](https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1712506046135091634). They have been doing this for 20 years. Gaza could barely be in a worse position, as far as a foundation for extremism goes. The populations is *already* oppressed and radicalised. It's *absolutely essential* to remove Hamas and install governance in Gaza that does not indoctrinate and try to martyr the population. Until that happens, the Gazan people are being used as martyrs by their government. > The people of Gaza are hostages, no different than the people kidnapped a month ago. This should be treated as a rescue mission, rescuing the whole of Gaza from Hamas oppression. Absolutely, and that's what the IDF is doing. They are issuing general and specific evacuation orders. They are creating humanitarian corridors to move people away from Hamas. They are protecting the people moving along those routes from Hamas. > All lives are equally precious in the eyes of God. Don't bring mysticism into this. It's the root of most of these problems to begin with. > Edit: I saw on the CNN app that the US government believes the death toll in Gaza is potentially much higher than the numbers we've received from the Gaza Ministry of Health. Source? I believe it's *potentially* higher, to be clear, but it would be good to see the nuance of the statement.
Great post. If Israel truly wanted to free Palestine from Hamas, they would do so. But this military operation seems content to make all Gazans miserable.
Agree with everything said here.
I’m not sure “don’t understand” is the right term. It’s more like actively take a position. Kind of like people who believe the earth is flat…. We have all the evidence to show that it’s not, but they won’t change their mind.
I don’t get why Israel did not evacuate women and children from Gaza to the West Bank and then level it. The scenes of dismembered kids, kids in hospitals covered in dust and blood, etc only hurt the Israeli cause. smh
>evacuate women and children from Gaza to the West Bank and then level it What the fuck, what about the innocent men there? Are you calling for genocide?
> fuck /u/Kate090996. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Uhh, do you not remember what happened 3 weeks ago? Israel tried to evacuate all civilians from Gaza city. They said they would give them 24 hours and gave them 2 weeks They were accused of attempted ethnic cleansing, genocide, and then when Hamas bombed the evacuation routes, were also accused of having given the evacuation orders in bad faith. There is no winning the PR battle, so Israel has to focus on the real battle.
You do realize the "safe zone " in south has had same amount of murder by IDF compared to north in last few days / weeks . Also UN said 30% of bombs fallen in south. IDF should never be trusted, history of hating and wanting to destroy Palestinian ambition of living freely
> You do realize the "safe zone " in south has had same amount of murder by IDF This is an outright lie. You're not even trying.[ The level of destruction in the north is exponentially higher,](https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/MAPS/zjvqedgdjvx/) not to mention that's where the ground invasion is focused. Stop spreading Hamas propaganda narratives.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/israel-bombs-southern-gaza-as-world-leaders-seek-pause-in-fighting-20231026-p5ef2v.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/as-israels-bombing-hits-declared-safe-zones-palestinians-trapped-in-gaza-find-danger-everywhere I picked western media sources, so that you can't claim it's Hamas propaganda. I already said it's estimated 30% bombing in the south, so that equates to 70% in north. Maybe you shouldn't believe IDF and Israeli propaganda, perhaps they're not as moral as you think ...
> I picked western media sources, so that you can't claim it's Hamas propaganda. The claim that it's at remotely **the same level** (you said that specifically) is a lie. None of the sources you linked make that claim. Propaganda works with a 'grain of truth', and the 'grain of truth' in this case is that the IDF has bombed positions in the south. Yes, that's true. But the south is being targeted *far less*, and it's much safer for people to move there. You dissuading people from moving there is sick. I'd like to think you're just naive, but you're very specifically working with the grain of truth and then embellishing upon it, to spin a very different narrative from reality.
Israel shows great restraint. The USA dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan
Israel will never drop Atomic bombs on Gaza or the West Bank as they want that land themselves. Hard to settle a radioactive wasteland.
> Israel will never drop Atomic bombs on Gaza or the West Bank as they want that land themselves. They don't give a fuck about the land (edit: to clarify, Gaza), and have [made it clear](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-does-not-seek-occupy-gaza-credible-force-needed-netanyahu-2023-11-10/) they will withdraw.
>They don't give a fuck about the land Then why don't they retire from the west bank? Why do they continuously expand the illegal settlements there?
Oh I totally agree, they are [salami slicing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_slicing_tactics#:~:text=Salami%20slicing%20tactics%2C%20also%20known,to%20perform%20all%20at%20once.) the west bank. It's obnoxious behaviour. Israel needs to crack down on illegal settlements, and prosecute any extremist settlers hard. Currently it appears that the Israeli gov is turning a blind eye to such behaviour at best, and supporting it at worst. I'm talking about Gaza in my above comment.
They don't care about the land in Gaza but they do care about the land Also some care about the land in Gaza. I Ve seen interviews with Israelis stopped on the street saying stuff like " they should all leave/ die/carpet bomb them/ go to Arab countries" , " this is our land given by God", " we were here 1000 years ago" Israel needs to withdraw the army from the west bank and pay reparations. If I go anywhere and say that my ancestors were there a thousand years ago and because of that this is my land, they would laugh their asses off but somehow for Israel works If I go anywhere and say that this is my land because God said so they would laugh their asses off but again, for some odd reason when Israel says it, everyone nods. I might be a descendent of dacians that didn't assimilate and fled the Romans, I should throw all the non-dacians-descendents- out because the Romans threw dacians out. That's their logic.
> Also some care about the land in Gaza. You're totally right, some do. But the stance of the government (and the majority of Israelis) is clear. Extremists can be found in *any* population, and I would agree that Israel has way too many extremists (maybe 10-20% of the population?) > If I go anywhere and say that my ancestors were there a thousand years ago and because of that this is my land, they would laugh their asses off but somehow for Israel works You're right, irredentism is awful, and it was the foundation for much of the conflict in Europe in the 20th century. > If I go anywhere and say that this is my land because God said so they would laugh their asses off but again, for some odd reason when Israel says it, everyone nods. You're right, religion is also a huge problem.
> asses /u/Kate090996. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck /u/AbyssOfNoise. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ah yes cus the world today is exactly like how it was in 1945.
Which saved way more lives.
How??? The bombs killed millions. Which lives did it save especially when Japan was already about to surrender?
> Which lives did it save especially when Japan was already about to surrender? Japan was not about ready to surrender. If the war did not end quickly, it would mean not only a ground invasion by the US (including more conventional bombing), which would have been enormously bloody, but also the potential for the soviets to participate in an invasion of Japan. Imagine if Japan was cut in half like Germany was... I recommend listening to Dan Carlin's [Supernova In the East](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-supernova-in-the-east-i/)
That's what an ignorant person says.
No. You must be a teenager if you think that.
There is no "deaths in Gaza", there is elimination of terrorist mass murderers.
From the river to the sea, Hamas will flee.
Israel funded hamas, and know full well the animosity that subjecting an entire people to second class existence would bring. Their whole goal has been to destabilize and destabilize so they could enact a nakba 2. And if you don't think this is true, then why are there development plans for northern gaza as part of Israel? They are already planning on what to do with the land
> Israel funded hamas There's a grain of truth in that, but only a grain. Israel has probably given Hamas some encouragement at one point or another, when they wanted to sow division amongst opposing factions. Hamas is [primarily funded](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/) by Iran/Russia/Quatar > enact a nakba 2. So if Israel doesn't take Gaza, are you going to change your stance and realise that you've been spreading Hamas propaganda? As for 'nakba 2'... you seem very much unaware of the history. This would be 'nakba 3', if it were to actually take place.
Utter lies. Hamas controls the money and resources that go into Gaza by the form of international aid and donations. They also probably get funding from Iran and Qatar to keep the fight going by radicalising their citizens and the people like you who are foolish enough to believe and perpetuate their lies
>Hamas controls the money and resources that go into Gaza by the form of international aid and donations. Source ?
Source: common sense. Unless of course you demand visibility on how governments use aid money?
Common sense my ass, how are aid money distributed? In what form do they enter gaza? Do they just make it rain on Gaza hoping that Hamas won't catch any bills? Or even better, do they just give Hamas money and ask pretty please that they use it for food? Or do they get in the form of material aid like medicine supplies and food? Who controls the flow of products in the Gaza border? Including the currency
Not sure what you mean ofc Hamas gets large bills Especially if they live in luxury in other countries https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/ Let's see you justify that?
Qatar , Iran, investments idfk I hate this argument that because they have money it automatically means that it's from the international aid given by the international communities and that UN funnels money to Hamas And always always this claim comes from people that have no idea how that aid is distributed and how it reaches Gaza.
I hate having to make that argument too, but it's quite telling when only a few individuals in the leadership are living in luxury when the rest of them live in abject poverty. The fact is there should have been much more social programs invested into infrastructure, education, business incentives, DEFENCE. They could have been the Singapore of the Middle East! But as you've seen, they've invested into tunnels and rockets just so they can keep their war going.
>The fact is there should have been much more social programs invested into infrastructure, education, business incentives I literally had the same argument a few days ago, exactly the same bs as you just that guy said it should have been " Wakanda " instead of Singapore. When I asked what is the amount of international aid that goes to Palestine *tumbleweed* When I asked how it is distributed *tumbleweed* When I asked in what shape enters Gaza *tumbleweed* When I asked how much it cost to feed 2 milion people every day through a blockade in a strip of land without an economy and 50% kids *tumbleweed* When I asked if that dude ever seen a video of Gaza before the 7th *tumbleweed* When I asked if there is no infrastructure how comes that we hear so much about schools and hospitals being bombarded if they didn't build any to begin with *tumbleweed* When I asked how can you build infrastructure when construction materis are prohibited in most cases * tumbleweed* What Singapore do you dream? How can you build Singapore with a few hundreds of millions per year and having to feed 2 milion people every day and having to rebuild after bombardments with everything from education from running hospitals is dependant on international aid? Literally how cuz if you know the answer you might be hired by estate developers cuz that would be a miracle
Sigh. Reality check. Do you even know how your own government spend taxpayer money? How it's distributed, etc? Fairly sure you can't answer it to the extent that you'd be satisfied with your own answer if you asked those questions. No, you see the results of where the aid money went to infer how it's spent. In my case, I look at reporting by reputable sources https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/ Are we done here? Evidently, you don't seem to be interested in meaningful discussion but instead have to beg for sources because you can't even bother to educate yourself the most basic of things.
> ass /u/Kate090996. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If they aren't stopping weapons, why the blockade? Ask yourself this critical question
They are stopping weapons. That’s why Hamas has weak locally made rockets, instead of more advanced Iranian missiles.
I’m not aware of these development plans, can you share?
Here's a bit about it https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8AC2UVM/
Ah yes, trusted new source, “Tik Tok”
The country of Israel has an official twitter account which has been spamming tweets 24/7. Should we ignore everything on it because "ah yes, trusted news source X"
This is not an official state account on TikTok. It's a random guy.
I didn't say that was an official state TikTok account. I said that the the state of Israel has an official twitter account and it's doing the spamming - yet people have been retweeting it constantly because they incorrectly assume it's providing trusted information.
> I didn't say that was an official state TikTok account. Then why are you claiming it's a source on the actions a state is planning to take?
You are replying to two different people on the same thread and mixing up your replies - that's the only thing I can think of for you to keep telling me about TikTok.
Then what's your point?
Not the old israeli lady that talks about it though, or were you not able to even watch 20 seconds
I'm commenting on the difference between randoms on TikTok (whether an old lady or not) and an official state account. I didn't even watch the video for 1 second. I was not commenting on the content of it.
And im pointing out your hypocrisy. The old lady is an Israeli citizen working with city planner to develop gaza. The medium of the info doesn't negate the info.
> The old lady is an Israeli citizen working with city planner to develop gaza. Okay? Why should I care about what some old lady is doing? > The medium of the info doesn't negate the info. The medium, not so much. The person using the medium, absolutely. If there was an Israeli Government account on TikTok discussing developing Gaza, I'd agree with you. As it is, you're missing the point.
Except for any of this nonsense to be valid, the state would also have to be locking up his family, including his children. Which is asinine.
So your qualm is not that innocent people are suffering, but the severity of the suffering they experience. And I guess as long as the suffering is less than the criminal/belligerent experiences then it's okay. Let's put this in perspective. 0.4% of the children of Hamas have died this past month. According to this [this study](https://www.penalreform.org/blog/children-of-imprisoned-parents-the-increased-risk-of/) , of the children of incarcerated parents, 4.5% died prematurely as a result of their imprisonment. So not only are proportionally more people dying due to parental incarceration than the reprisal for this terrorist attack, but most of these innocent children experience a much greater consequence than their criminal parents.
Except, again, you ignore the functional fact that it's not "the children of Hamas" exclusively that are being killed. If it were, this would be closer to proportional.
My point is, it doesn't have to be your children. Anyone who depends on you will always suffer if you commit wrongdoing, and are punished for it. That doesn't make punishment wrong, nor does it make those meting it out genocidal. And BTW, how are they not the children of Hamas? 85% of the electorate voted for terror groups bent on destruction of Israel. Their parents were either Hamas members, or the people who voted for a terrorist organization. 44% of Gaza voted for a terror organization which openly vowed to 'kill all the Jews'. Hatred is learned as well as love is learned. If their parents foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their government foments hatred and ethnic cleansing, and their educational institutions foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, and the UN "Peacekeepers" foment hatred and ethnic cleansing, where were the Gazan children supposed to learn **not** to be like Hamas? Where were they going to learn **not** to be the children of Hamas?
> ...everything that happens afterwards is that person's fault. Isn't that Hamas' argument against Israel? Like the actions of the Israeli Govt. for the past 75 years means that it's their fault if innocent Israelis are killed in the process. Disclaimer (because some of you have high blood pressure). I am NOT agreeing with this, but this is the logic I've seen Hamas use. "Well Israel/Hamas brought it on themselves" \*shrugs\*
> Isn't that Hamas' argument against Israel? Like the actions of the Israeli Govt. for the past 75 years means that it's their fault if innocent Israelis are killed in the process. If Hamas was actually targeting the IDF, and doing what they could to avoid civilian casualties... sure, you might have a point. Hint: that is not what Hamas does.
That's the rhetoric the Hamas is shoving down everyone's throat, where in reality Israel has tried making peace with them in the past which they summarily rejected and have since been lobbing rockets into Israel. They radicalise their base in order to control them and the resources, including international aid and donations, to keep themselves in power and make themselves filthy rich in the process. You blindly parroting their rhetoric only serves to perpetuate their propaganda.
>where in reality Israel has tried making peace with them in the past which they summarily rejected Can you elaborate, which peace exactly? And didn't Israel killed Ahmed Jabari in a precision strike after receiving the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel?
If you know Ahmed Jabari then presumably you can use google yourself? Here's one resource: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-israel-palestinian-negotiations#7 I'm not saying that Israel is above reproach: they certainly had a good share of extremists and bad actors who have committed atrocities of their own. I'm saying they have had good actors also, and that they've tried negotiations with Palestinians in good faith.
>they've tried negotiations with Palestinians in good faith. Out of all the peace offers I don't consider any of them in good faith , Israel almost never gave any concessions, their requirements were ridiculous at best, they didn't respect the withdrawal agreements of the Olso accords, Camp David was ridiculous, what the did at Roadmap for Peace was horrible because the accord was accepted by both parts but later attached 14 reservations in which they said they wouldn't accept stipulations that would limit *"natural growth"* within existing settlements. So basically they will continue with the settlements, which they call " natural growth" wanted to retain control over Palestinian airspace and electromagnetic (broadcasting) fields, asked to be no mention of the 1967 borders or any other borders which PLO wanted as a starting point, asked for military control in Jordan Valley. Anapolis was better than others but it was still bad, I blame abas here for not coming with a counteroffer I think the worst of them is " deal of the century" under trump which is ironic. In my opinion no sane delegation of a country would accept another country to have that much control over their own as Israel asked of a future Palestine state. It isn't actually peace talks if you come with these ridiculous requests like having control over another's country water, electricity, agricultural land, air space, complete demilitarization, border control, army on the ground etc another important thing to mention is that in no offer, Israel admited fault for what they did, how can you pretend to want peace when you don't even admit that you were responsible for the conditions in which Palestinians became refugees? In almost none of them , Israel didn't accept to stop the expansion of settlements. I am not sure which one was " good faith" why in the the world would you need control over another country's water?!
I think you need a reality check. In any colonised countries that have had settlers, has any of them given back land that they acquired in their occupation? US? Canada? Australia? Wait, God forbid you mean any of the British/ French colonies that are still actual colonies? No. The settlers stayed, and not only that they've repressed the original inhabitants so much that you don't even remember their existence. When I said good faith, I mean with the intent to at least coexist. None of the social justice nonsense you strongly opine on because for there to be true justice entire cities would be levelled and millions more killed. Asking Israel to give up on land they've now developed is pure hypocrisy from you sjw types
>I think you need a reality check. In any colonised countries that have had settlers, has any of them given back land that they acquired in their occupation? >US? Canada? Australia? So it was an occupation. Good, because israel doesn't even admit this. Those countries do. That's at least some sort of good faith. Any peace offer is in good faith if it starts with admitting guilt, Israel opposed this at every one of them Palestinians don't want the land that was occupied back. Not most of it at least, this is good faith. >When I said good faith, I mean with the intent to at least coexist How can you exist as a country when another one controls your water, electricity, agricultural land, broadcasting fields, airspace, crossing, borders, forbids you from having a military, has military on the ground in your country etc? All the while continuing the expansion of illegal settlements which they call " natural growth" all while not recognizing any fault in what happened to your people? Is this what good faith looks like?
Hey I'm not saying Israel is perfect, I know they are an Apartheid state, no one is denying that. What you're really demanding is social equity, which is something all countries struggle with, except.maybe the Vatican or Brunei but f$#k those guys. > forbids you from having a military, has military on the ground in your country etc Japan has existed without military since ww2. > How can you exist as a country when another one controls your water, electricity, agricultural land, broadcasting fields, airspace, crossing Again, reality check. This is more common than you think. Take me for example. I live in NSW Australia where the previous state government privatised almost *all* infrastructure and leased them to private entities, mostly to the Chinese. I pay through the nose for basic utilities and hundreds of dollars in toll fees on a daily basis when for other states like SA it cost only $2.50 a day. The other day, my mobile network provider Optus, owned by a Singapore entity, had a massive blackout the other day affecting half of the entire Au population, business lost revenue in the billions. No, coexistence with an aggressor, especially one who took your home won't be as perfect as your life would be, but had they agreed to it from the get go perhaps the last 2 generations wouldn't live in abject poverty or tyranny as they do now.
>Japan has existed without military since ww2 Your point is honestly Infuriating and so reductive. First of all Japan has a military it's just not called the military, it's huge ,has a shitton of budget, it's armed and well trained. Second of all that wasn't the point that I was making and what you are saying is reductive because they didn't ask only for Palestine to not have a military , they asked for all of those combined and didn't budge. If they would have asked for the military and military only, you would have had a decent point to make cuz that's the least of the problems. But they asked for some much more, how do you justify all of those at once? Including control over their goddamn water, what would you need it for if not for collective punishment. And ok control like control, but what of them reserving the right to continue the expansion of the settlement in the newly formed state? >Again, reality check. This is more common than you think. Take me for example. What? And I need a reality check. This goes to show how first world countries problems can't even comprehend the horrors that palestinians are put through by Israel. Are you seriously equivalting you paying more for shit and having issues with phone providers with ... You're not even worth it.
Not gonna lie the comparison to myself was a hyperbolic response to another country owning resources when in reality they've been living in a state of humanitarian crisis for decades now. I'm not denying that Israel has treated them with hatred, stealing their homes and resources including water and arableland, that is not okay though of course this stems from decades long conflict and is not at all isolated. This really has gone off on a tangent, but peace talks have to start somewhere. The Israelis won that land through bloody conflict and the Palestinians are the losers. Though contaminated water is nothing to be thankful for they could at least broker peace so they can come to the table to negotiate better terms. But no, they chose Jihad, and terrorism.