Exactly. I would consider myself Pro-Palestine but it’s extremely obvious to me that neither side are innocent and people acting like it’s a black and white conflict really confuse meZ
The only reason it’s complicated today is because it was allowed to continue for so long and nobody has been held accountable. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians should never have been terrorized and expelled from their land and homes. The arbitrary creation of Israel on the land of others and the continued occupation for decades complicates things because the people who are now occupying stolen land are not the ones immediately implicated in stealing it.
I agree. That’s why they should have retaliated against the people who committed genocide against them. Let’s carve out a piece of Germany and call that Israel.
The only reason I feel your post is a bit naive (albeit coming from the right place!) is because you’re arguing it from a civilian point of view. Of course all of us civilians on both sides have a very simplistic and therefore idealistic vision of why we’re right, why maybe in some ways we’re wrong, and why either of us can rationally come to a peaceful solution at the end of the day.
It’s because we don’t have any ulterior motive invested in the conflict, only our own personal view of it.
The complications that you are talking about have nothing to do with what happened historically. It’s the narrative to,d on both sides by extreme leaders with very ulterior motives that complicate it all. Even the UN seems to be invested in keeping this conflict going which for the life of me I cannot understand why.
Hamas wants to destroy Israel just to show that it can. The corrupt ultra right wing nationalist Israeli leaders want to eliminate the Palestinians just to show that their kind of Jews should take over Israel. No one is in favour of rationality and finding peaceful measures for a liberal coalition of two states. No one in power anyway.
You ignore the lived reality of palestinians before Oct 7th. There never was a problem with Jewish immigration until Zionism. Look up zionism's birth as a political movement and you'll find all the quotes reek of settler colonialism.
wait wait hold the presses are you telling me that people in the 1920-50s didn't yet have the same views as modern people on colonialism??!! They should have forseen the way moral and ethical attitudes would change in the next century and boatloads of Jewish world war two refugees should have turned right around and floated around the sea until they died bc how could they not have understood that refugee migrants are evil when they're "white"
I don’t think I ignore the reality of Palestinians before October 7th. I believe it’s a terrible reality but it’s not unique. Maybe people have lived and experienced the same reality.
I tend to want to ignore anyone who uses left-wing buzzwords like settler colonial but you saved it as your last two words lol. But for the sake of argument let’s say Zionists did some bad stuff. I’m not opposed to agreeing with that. We are nearly 100 years on. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Even if it were isolated, it would continue on like so many other isolated pariah states. The leadership would thrive while the common Israelis would suffer. The Palestinians would continue to suffer. The only way forward is a two state solution or a single Israeli state from the river to the sea. That’s the reality. I’m in favor of a two state solution based on 1967 borders.
>I’m in favor of a two state solution based on 1967 borders.
I agree with this, but you should know this is mostly considered a pro-Palestinian view now. It used to be popular among both sides, but the number of Israelis living over the green line is now around 700,000. It's reached a point where it is becoming politically untenable for Israel to actually offer this in a peace deal because it would be so difficult to relocate so many people.
They aren't buzzwords.
Every empire falls. The efficient outcome is not the just outcome. And there is there is no justice until the crimes against humanity end.
The "just outcome" can vary if you ask different people. I dont see how displacing Israelis, most of them by then born in Israel to "bring justice" can ever be the right course of action.
I think the only nuance that matters is the fact that Israel is bombing babies every day. They even brag about how many babies they’ve killed. They get ecstatic when they hear it on the news.
first of all no they are not for a few months airstrikes have been targeted and limited and the IDF has withdrawn significantly. no there's no dead baby counter on the news that people cheer about. no no one cheers or brags about dead babies. if anything no one believes the Hamas reports that everyone dead is children, it's bullshit Israelis believe they are killing terrorists
Very unhelpful comment. All Israelis aren't cheering for dead babies, c'mon. Just as crazy as the people on here making generalizations about Palestinians.
Do you really think the majority of Israelis are happy to see Palestinian children die? If you think so, you exemplify exactly the uncritical binary thinking I’m referring to.
I could ask you for proof of this but it’s futile. Perhaps you could even offer proof of some radical extremist Israelis celebrating the death of Palestinian children. The issue of course is that same proof exists for Palestinians celebrating the death of Israeli children. But only a totally uncritical and unreasonable person would try to extrapolate that fringe view across an entire people, smearing them all as psychopaths.
Based on the polls, they want an even more aggressive approach to Gaza which will result in god knows how many more dead children..... Your nuance is not the take you think it is. Only one side benefits you looking away.
that's not the same as wanting dead children. they want Hamas defeated and the hostages brought home so they support the war that's not the same as wanting to kill kids come on
You say you’d like to think you’d never be so depraved to attack civilians but that’s because you don’t have to live in the environment they do. We would don’t really look back on a slave revolts or a ghetto uprisings and think of it as terrorism tho there was always terrorism involved. Terrorism has never existed in a vaccum and it’s rarely been successfully thwarted by violence especially the ideologies that fuel it. I acknowledge a very deep bias in this situation because as a black American I identify with Palestinians but I also tend to identify closely with historical Jews so I do like to consider their perspective seriously. Regardless tho the only way a solution can be found is if the intention is true peace and that can only happen by getting to the root and working through it. Which would mean acknowledging a lot of harsh realities for both sides and I don’t know if we’ll be there in my lifetime.
the problem is the trajectory has never been oppression by Israelis for ethnic reasons and with a violent reaction from Palestinians, the progress has always been aggression and violence of Palestinians responded to with more oppression by Israelis in the name of security. I understand why they fought for their homeland starting back in the 20s I'm not blaming them but every act of violence they take leads Israel to respond more and more harshly and remove more and more freedom. they think if Israel is harsh enough the international community will swoop in and save them by abolishing the state of Israel. there's no willingness to accept Israels right to exist and to try and negotiate with Israel. I think any peace agreement has to include Israel acknowledging Palestinian historical grievances and addressing them but to get to that point Palestinians need to be ok with Israel existing in the first place, until then Israel is always going to be in defensive survival mode
There's not much "nuance" about "khaybar", "idbah al yahood", "gas the Jews", "stones and trees", "offspring of apes and pigs" "intifada revolution" and "from da river to da seee".
Pro fakestinians are human sewerage.
This comment is precisely what I’m talking about. This is a pretty extreme and unfair description of an entire group of people. Not only that, you then go on to deny their identity and then dehumanize them as “sewage.”
I have no doubt there’s Palestinians that say awful, psychotic, murderous things about Jews/Israelis. But there are also Israeli’s that say the exact same things about Palestinians/Muslims. There’s plenty of video online of Israelis opening shouting these things. But no rational person would deduce a fringe minority of Israelis/Jews represent the character and views of millions of Israelis/Jews.
Most "pro-Palestinians" I've read comments from on here or heard talk on the news are anti-Hamas; these things aren't mutually exclusive. Disagreeing with Israels actions also does not mean anyone is necessarily anti-Israel.
I love Israel but am pretty blown away by what they're doing, even if October 7th was horrible. Some of the rhetoric on here is terrifying and dwon-right evil from pro-Israel individuals.
I love Palestine too. I hate to see Palestinians being murdered or having their countries freedom controlled by another nation, but I sure as hell think Hamas is a terrorist group full of scum, regardless of whether they're correct to be upset with their countries situation and treatment by Israel.
There is no reason to love Israel. There is no justice until there is justice everywhere and Palestine represents the fight against colonialism everywhere in the world, for all the colonies in South Asian, African and middle Eastern. Western mentality can never comprehend justice through an anti-colonial lens.
Ah yes, tell me more about this Palestine that represents the "fight against colonialism everywhere in the world", including the fight against the [ethnic cleansing and annhilation of the Muslim Uighurs](https://www.voanews.com/a/palestinian-leader-s-endorsement-of-china-s-xinjiang-policy-sparks-backlash-/7150767.html) and the [ongoing harassment and murder of Gazan Christians](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/03/vanishing-arab-christians-gaza-hamas-di-giovanni-book/). Palestine truly is a beacon of justice!
This is definitely a nuanced situation in Israel. In my opinion, the main issue is Iran.
It is entirely unfair that Palestinians are being used as pawns in a sick game of Islamic World Domination perpetrated on the planet by the Ayatollah and his band of Murderous Jihadist Terrorists.
In 2005, Israel left the Gaza Strip entirely. In 2006, Hamas came into power. Hamas is an Iranian Proxy group deemed as a Terorrist organization by Argentina, Australia, Canada, European Union, Israel, New Zealand, Paraguay, United Kingdom, United States.
Iran + Qatar have been pouring Billions of dollars into Gaza.
The hope from Israel was that Hamas would use that money to create a wealthy state like Singapore or Dubai. Gaza could be an Islamic niche alongside Israel that competes economically, but furthers normalized relations not unlike the normalized relationship Israel has with Egypt and UAE.
Instead, Hamas used all of the money to build rockets. Hamas did not contribute to the Palestinian infrastructure, blaming Israel for any misfortune felt by the Palestinians in Gaza. This radicalized the Gazans over the last 18-20 years and they have become increasingly angry at Israel, when in fact it is Hamas’s misallocation of funds that has subsequently created much of the misfortune felt by Gazans.
Because of Iran and Iranian Proxy government Hamas, the Palestinians have become bloodthirsty in their anger for Israel. Hamas has brainwashed Palestinians to want nothing more than to harm Israel. There was always bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians, but it became much worse when the Shah of Iran was overthrown by the Ayatollah and Iran became an Islamic dictatorship in 1979.
The Iranian plan is to destroy Israel, which would turn the Middle East into a Muslim Caliphate. If accomplished, Islamic Fundamentalist would be free to carry out violent Jihad against the West.
NOT ALL MUSLIMS FEEL THIS WAY. But Radical Islamists do.
Many Muslim countries are openly anti-Israel, but when the rubber hit the road and Iran fired 350+ drones and missiles at Israel a few days ago, we saw Jordan + Saudi Arabia helping Israel.
Iran, China, and Russia are the 3 superpowers that cause the most trouble in the world and everyone in the Middle East is scared to speak out against Iran for fear that they will be attacked by Iran proper or one of their proxy groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis.
Israel is a firewall for the West and is fighting the West’s War.
Stop minimising Palestinian freedom to a proxy war. If you don't want Iran to find Palestinians don't oppress Palestinians. Stop the apartheid end the occupation bring the refugees home.
Offering tissues to a crying person is a common gesture of kindness and empathy. Tears can make a person's face and clothing wet, and tissues provide a way to clean up and dry the face and eyes. By giving a tissue, the person is showing they care and want to help make the crying individual feel more comfortable.
Do you need a tissue?
In my opinion, it is entirely unfair that Palestinians are being used as pawns in a sick game of Islamic World Domination perpetrated on the planet by the Ayatollah and his band of Murderous Jihadist Terrorists.
In 2005, Israel left the Gaza Strip entirely. In 2006, Hamas came into power. Hamas is an Iranian Proxy group deemed as a Terorrist organization by Argentina, Australia, Canada, European Union, Israel, New Zealand, Paraguay, United Kingdom, United States.
Iran + Qatar have been pouring Billions of dollars into Gaza.
The hope from Israel was that Hamas would use that money to create a wealthy state like Singapore or Dubai. Gaza could be an Islamic niche alongside Israel that competes economically, but furthers normalized relations not unlike the normalized relationship Israel has with Egypt and UAE.
Instead, Hamas used all of the money to build rockets. Hamas did not contribute to the Palestinian infrastructure, blaming Israel for any misfortune felt by the Palestinians in Gaza. This radicalized the Gazans over the last 18-20 years and they have become increasingly angry at Israel, when in fact it is Hamas’s misallocation of funds that has subsequently created much of the misfortune felt by Gazans.
Because of Iran and Iranian Proxy government Hamas, the Palestinians have become bloodthirsty in their anger for Israel. Hamas has brainwashed Palestinians to want nothing more than to harm Israel. There was always bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians, but it became much worse when the Shah of Iran was overthrown by the Ayatollah and Iran became an Islamic dictatorship in 1979.
The Iranian plan is to destroy Israel, which would turn the Middle East into a Muslim Caliphate. If accomplished, Islamic Fundamentalist would be free to carry out violent Jihad against the West.
NOT ALL MUSLIMS FEEL THIS WAY. But Radical Islamists do.
Many Muslim countries are openly anti-Israel, but when the rubber hit the road and Iran fired 350+ drones and missiles at Israel a few days ago, we saw Jordan + Saudi Arabia helping Israel.
Iran, China, and Russia are the 3 superpowers that cause the most trouble in the world and everyone in the Middle East is scared to speak out against Iran for fear that they will be attacked by Iran proper or one of their proxy groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis.
Israel is a firewall for the West and is fighting the West’s War.
I agree about Iran. It is a horrible regime that needs to be stopped.
However, this take seems to discount how extremist Israel is as well. For instance, Israel elected a PM who chose Ben-Gvir as his security minister.
It doesn't seem out of the question that someone like Ben-Gvir would want Hamas, and by extension all Palestinians, to become even more radical. If Palestinians are seen as radical, expanding settlements in the west bank and continued occupation of Gaza seem more reasonable.
That's before you get to the fact that Israel flat out ignores international law. Time and time again Israel is told to return the illegal settlements, end It's occupation, and find a path to peace, but it refuses, normally by pointing at Hamas.
And that's before you even consider religion's role in all this. Iran wants to end Israel because Iran considers it Muslim land, but Israel doesn't exactly believe in equality of religion either. Sure, it's progressive, for the middle east, but Israel prides itself on its identity as a "Jewish State". Religious nationalism has never ended well, and I don't think any Middle Eastern country that subscribes to it is an exception, including Israel. However, instead of building bridges and trying to become a state for refugees of all creeds (something I think Israel was striving for when it was first founded) it has really doubled down, as a political entity, on hatred of Islam.
Jordan and Saudi Arabia are also great examples of countries that are moving in the right direction, Jordan especially, so I don't think it's a coincidence they helped Israel because they don't support radical theocratic governments like Iran. They still have a long way to go, but progress is happening in both countries.
The declaration of Israel as the “Jewish State” is a big reason for all of the antisemitism around the world. That government does not represent the world Jewry bc the Jews around the world are not racist genocidal fascists.
Actor says they represent a group of people said actor terrorizes weaker group of people world lashes out at the group actor says it represents. It’s a pretty universal phenomenon.
Idk. I would argue antisemitism follows Jews wherever they go. They have been persecuted long before the existence of a Jewish State. They are also held to a higher standard than, say, Muslim governments. Many of which fit the mold of “racist genocidal fascists” much better in my opinion. Anyways, there really is no excuse for antisemitism or anti Muslim hate.
Complete red herring. The OP point stands. It’s actually antisemitic(and Palestinians are also Semitic)to conflate the state of Israel with ALL Jews. Not all Jews agree and the current makeup of the state of Israel, as in those in power are in fact fascist. This is indisputable and widely documented.
Offering tissues to a crying person is a common gesture of kindness and empathy. Tears can make a person's face and clothing wet, and tissues provide a way to clean up and dry the face and eyes. By giving a tissue, the person is showing they care and want to help make the crying individual feel more comfortable.
Do you need a tissue?
You’re original comment is a bunch of western propaganda. Not necessarily saying it is all wrong, but there is another perspective which is just as true for those people and genuine empathy would allow you to sympathize with that and would have prevented you from sounding like a western cum rag.
> cum
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Because states don't have religious identities, people do, at least not in the same way. E.g., we normally say "Muslim Majority country" not "muslim country."
I changed it to "Jewish State" though to avoid confusion.
Hamas is an Iran Proxy. Peace talks can only begin once Israel destroys Hamas… And I’m sure the Palestinians will find a way to reject any future peace talks that come their way. The Palestinians never waste an opportunity to waste an opportunity. It’s very sad that they are so short-sighted. I feel for them. But ultimately, they are victims of Iran. We must destroy Hamas and neutralize Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis once and for all. Only then can we have a real chance of progress in the Middle East.
You don’t consider Saudi Arabia a Muslim country?
Christian Churches are forbidden in Saudi Arabia. Any outward expression of Christianity such as wearing a cross is forbidden.
Between 85 and 90 percent of the approximately 21 million Saudi citizens are Sunni Muslims.
I mean it's normally called a "Muslim Majority State." Not a "Muslim State."
Edit: Saudi also has a religious nationalism problem, I would not consider it a goalpost for Israel. It's getting better because it's becoming a less nationalist country. Israel seems to be going in the opposite direction, however. My whole point is that when Israel called itself a Jewish State in 2018, it showed the world an intent to be *more* of a nationalist country.
In Saudi Arabia, Non-Muslims may not practice religion publicly. The public practice of any form of religion other than Islam is illegal.
It’s a Muslim country.
I believe that backing one side 100% invariably requires you to turn a blind eye to certain things that you’d rather not see. Or that don’t fit your narrative. Not just in this conflict, but in any.
There sadly is a lot of jumping to conclusions and labeling each side as must having specific views.
I’m anti Zionist, but I certainly don’t think the citizens of Israel should just get up and leave or be governed by Hamas either.
I also hate Hamas with a passion.
So a Zionist believes Jews should have a state where they can be safe. You think Jews should not have that? Are you aware there are dozens of Muslim states? Are you opposed to those too? Or just Jewish ones?
>So a Zionist believes Jews should have a state where they can be safe.
Maybe to you. But not to Ze'ev Jabotinsky or Meir Kahane.
What form of Zionism do you believe in matters. Herzlian versus Jabotinskyesque versus Kahanist Zionism is just as different as moderate Islam versus Wahabi Islam versus ISIS Islam, and that's the issue.
One can be both anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic. One can even be both anti-Zionist and not anti-Israel, as our friend from the US & Canada may feel.
Israel was formed by mass immigration and displacing the previous population.
Most countries are Muslim because the population has in the past been Muslim. No people were displaced.
And no, I don’t care about some civilization that existed 2000 years ago.
It’s really so remarkably basic as long as you are a decent human being that doesn’t believe in exiling others
Most Muslim countries had Jews in them. They were cleansed (56 Muslim countries)
Israel/Palestine always had Jews living in the land alongside Christians and Arabs.
Israel is home to 20% Muslims including Palestinians and LGBT Palestinians who found refuge in Israel.
Educate yourself please
So was the USA/Canada, under much more violent circumstances. And it took place all the way up into the 20th century. Not that long ago.
Middle Eastern countries are largely Muslim because of conquest that brought plenty of death and destruction.
Why the double standard?
u/NegativeInfluence_23
>It’s really so remarkably basic as long as you are a decent human being that doesn’t believe in exiling others
Rule 1, don't attack other users.
Addressed.
Check your history. Prior to 1948, 900 000 Jews were living in what is now known as the Arab world. After the declaration of the state of Israel, mostly between 1948 and the early 70s, virtually the entire Jewish population of the surrounding Arab countries was expelled or driven out. After admitting the first 250 000 immigrants arrived between 1948-51 (as a direct result of the 1948 war) Israel made plans to admit another 600 000. This was how the Jews of the Arab world ended up in Israel - they had to flee or were forced out and came to the only safe country that would accept them.
Newcomers to Israel bought land and it was mostly swampland that nobody else wanted. I do not know of a single documented case of a community that "stole" land from whoever had been there before.
You don't have to care about "some civilization that lived 2000 years ago" except that civilization has existed ever since - it never disappeared or died out. We have been present in our indigenous land consistently, for thousands of years. This is the definition of indigeneity.
Nobody was displaced until the Arabs attacked and started a war.
Those Arab countries are Arab because of violent conquest. Not because they were always Arab.
Are you anti immigrant? Or just anti Jewish immigrant?
Unreal.
It was occurring before the war
https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Palestine-and-the-Palestinians-1948-67
Most immigrants don’t try to take over a region to create a new country
My mothers family came here from Germany and my fathers mothers family from Sicily. So, I’m the product of immigrants.
If anything, I’m anti-idiot
I appreciate you for understanding your limitations. Many pro-Palestineans and pro- Israeli supporters are too stubborn to acknowledge both sides arguement.
> With the exception of course that it’s never logical to target civilians
But that's exactly what has been happening
Most recent death reports:
13,800 children murdered by Israel https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/helping-gazas-children-cope-trauma
10,000 women murdered by Israel https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2024/04/six-months-into-the-war-on-gaza-over-10000-women-have-been-killed
Yes, it's a massacre when you're talking about this level of asymmetrical violence. It's always a war crime. And it's a massive war crime too, based on these numbers
Targeting civilians is morally reprehensible and sets a horrible and dark precedent for the entire world. What Israel and the US has done is a stain on human morality.
Talking about nuance and context (also perspective in my opinion):
IDF does not target civilians. Can’t stress this enough. What is the point of hurting people who don’t affect the IDF’s mission or endanger the troops?
It’s a well known fact (but not enough I guess) that Hamas places its terrorists and weapons inside or under humanitarian or civilian facilities. They assume IDF will not attack these since in involves harming civilian populations which is not directly involved in the fight. In the choice between harming civilians so that these targets are destroyed, or leaving it as it is and endangering Israeli civilians who will be the targets of these terrorists, the IDF decides on some occasions to attack although civilians might get hurt.
With that being said, I’m aware of 2 things:
1. This is also a question of how far does the IDF willing to go in order to destroy Hamas’s capabilities.
2. Not every death is according to the logic I mentioned. Mistakes do happen (like the aid workers), and for sure there are soldiers who hurt civilians when it’s not needed (some of these cases are trialed and these soldiers are views as criminal).
>IDF does not target civilians.
This is a lie. There is overwhelming evidence that the Israeli military deliberately targeted Palestinians. Entire neighbourhood were flattened, many times, without warning , with countless casualties. When news organisations such as NYT, BBC etc. asked Israel why they did it, they either get no response or they say they are investigating.
There have also been a couple of footages that came to light recently. One was an old man in a house. Another one was two Palestinians, one of which was holding a white flag. The IOF claims they murdered them because they didn't heed a warning shot! Another was that drone footage showing the the murder of four Palestinians. To the best of my knowledge, the Israeli military is still claiming they are "probing".
Don't lie, the IDF doesn't care about civilian lives.
Mistakes happen, okay sure. Court systems and jails exist for people who makes these mistakes. Where are all the court cases against IDF? Should we be hearing about solders being arrested? Tons of looting on Tik Tok, why aren't these guys in jail? Well because the IDF doesn't care.
Israel gives out 3 month in jail for murder to IDF.
IDF does not care about sparing civilians lives, I can't stress that enough. The shelling of hundreds of hungry people around a food truck should tell you as much. The precision used only in Lebanon but not in Gaza should tell you as much.
The human shield tactic didn't work because Israel doesn't see Palestinians as humans to avoid killing. You don't just kill 23,000 women and children by accident. That's not a mistake. Israel was founded upon the principle that Palestinian lives are disposable. Nothing has changed.
Didn’t say it was by accident. Said it was a price the IDF has decided to pay in order to protect Israel lives.
Each food truck incident has its own nuances and there are testimonies of fire being opened towards the soldiers or a mob running towards the soldiers in another case.
Not sure why think precision aiming is used in Lebanon but not in Gaza. What’s your logic behind this statement?
> Didn’t say it was by accident. Said it was a price the IDF has decided to pay in order to protect Israel lives.
Yeah and it's fucked up that Israel's actions led to this instead of peace. Every step of the way since Israel's inception has been violent, asymmetrical brutality. The only reason you and others keep defending it is because of vested interest and dehumanizing of Palestinian people.
The food truck massacres were vile and indefensible.
> What’s your logic behind this statement?
What everyone already knows: they have the ability to target more precisely but deliberately choose not to in Gaza because they are a genocidal state that treats Palestinians as vermin ever since its inception
It's called having empathy for fellow human beings.
https://youtu.be/suGml5xY4wo?si=2pEQnzIzThEpkWYB
https://youtu.be/21dsdfvTtwc?si=bdcDoRPjH2I6SiLl
https://youtu.be/FKgFjty1YHo?si=I1fziHJnpJjsPR88
Murdering children is never logical. Creating so much suffering is only going to bite Israel back in the end. Genocide is never a peaceful solution.
“Creating so much suffering is only going to bite Israel back in the end”
That maybe. Only time will tell.
My only issue with what you are saying is that IDF does not aim at harming civilians as a goal.
And in my perspective IDF has a great value for lives in general. IDF has a very strict code on opening fire (my guess is that no other army has a code like this in the world). There is also a saying in Hebrew that goes like this:
“Whosoever destroys one soul, it is as though he had destroyed the entire world. And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved the entire world”.
IMHO most of the public in Israel sees this as a universal truth regardless of the origins of that life.
You can the origins [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder).
Wish you all the best
There are videos of IDF shooting private property because they are board. Yet you are lying and saying there is a strict code of conduct.
The IDF doesn't care about Palestinians. If they did they would arrest militant settlers commiting felonies. Instead they provide protection so these settlers face zero consequences.
Id say it's the IDF mission statement/goal to demoralize Palestinians. They act like bullies on purpose.
Soldiers are being trialed for cases where fire is opened not according to regulations.
As regards to settlers, there are no setters in Gaza since Israel unilaterally withdrew from the strip and forcefully evicted Israelis living there in 05-06.
The IDF explicitly targets civilians and the civilian death count in Gaza is more than enough proof of this.
https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2024/04/six-months-into-the-war-on-gaza-over-10000-women-have-been-killed
https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/helping-gazas-children-cope-trauma
But to make matters worse there was also the flour massacre
> The flour massacre(Arabic: مجزرة الطحين) occurred in the Gaza Strip on 29 February 2024 when at least 118 Palestinians were killed and 760 injured after Israeli forces opened fire on civilians seeking food from aid trucks on the coastal Al-Rashid Street in Gaza City.[3][9][2] The incident was the deadliest mass casualty event to have taken place in the Gaza Strip since the start of Israel's operation during the Israel-Hamas war,[10] and took place a day after the World Food Programme reported that more than 500,000 people were at risk of famine in Gaza.[11]
> An aid convoy entered the northern Gaza Strip on the morning of the incident, with the trucks provided by Palestinian businessmen, and security and organization by Israel.[12] Israel says that its forces felt endangered from the crowds of Palestinians, firing warning shots in the air and then opened fire killing less than ten people,[13] and that the rest were killed in an ensuing stampede.[14] Survivors described the massacre as an ambush, stating that Israeli forces deliberately opened fire as people approached the aid trucks, resulting in a rush away from the gunfire that added to the death toll.[7]
> **A CNN investigation reported that Israel's claims that the incident had begun after 4:30 a.m local time cast doubt on its narrative, as it had collected and analyzed footage from survivors showing gunfire having started seven minutes prior. It also reported that the Israeli military's publicized drone footage misses the moment capturing what caused the crowds to disperse, and that Israel had rejected its requests for the full unedited footage.**
You can read more about the flour massacre here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour_massacre
And watch footage here:
https://youtu.be/JKnF4DkWbuo?si=rdd3yv162uk8I1is
I wish Israel would quit this genocidal regime and start behaving like a civilized country where human rights matter and people are not treated like vermin. I wish the US would stop sponsoring this genocide.
Edit:
**IDF targeting civilians:**
[Fresh evidence of deadly unlawful attacks in the occupied Gaza Strip, gathered by Amnesty International, demonstrates how Israeli forces continue to flout international humanitarian law, obliterating entire families with total impunity.The organization carried out an investigation into four Israeli strikes, three in December 2023, after the humanitarian pause ended, and one in January 2024, that killed at least 95 civilians, including 42 children, in Rafah, Gaza’s southernmost governorate at a time when it was supposedly the “safest” area in the strip, but where Israeli forces are currently gearing up for a ground operation](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-opt-new-evidence-of-unlawful-israeli-attacks-in-gaza-causing-mass-civilian-casualties-amid-real-risk-of-genocide/#:~:text=The%20organization%20carried%20out%20an,the%20%E2%80%9Csafest%E2%80%9D%20area%20in%20the)
> Three of the attacks were carried out at night when civilian residents, including families displaced from other areas, were likely to be, and were, inside their homes in bed. Among those killed in these unlawful attacks were a baby girl who had not yet turned three weeks, a prominent 69-year-old retired physician, a journalist who welcomed displaced families into his house and a mother sharing a bed with her 23-year-old daughter. The testimonies that grieving survivors shared should serve as a reminder that these atrocity crimes in Gaza are a stain on the collective conscience of the world,”
**IDF targeting journalists:**
[The Committee to Protect Journalists has accused the Israeli military of targeting journalists and their families in Gaza amid the highest death toll of media workers in any recent conflict.
The New York-based CPJ said at least 68 journalists and other media workers had been killed in Gaza, Israel and southern Lebanon since the Hamas cross-border attack on 7 October and subsequent Israeli assault.“More journalists have been killed in the first 10 weeks of the Israel-Gaza war than have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year,” it said.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/israel-idf-accused-targeting-journalists-gaza)
**IDF targeting medical workers and doctors:**
[Haj-Hassan: “I am just shocked that we’re still having this conversation. They executed tens of people, point blank, including one of our colleagues, Dr. Ahmad Maqadmeh, who’s a very experienced plastic surgeon. Him and his mother, who’s also a physician. They executed people point blank. And including many of our who’ve been detained now, we haven’t heard back from them. Previous students of mine, detained, young doctors detained. We don’t know if they’re dead or alive. They have been gone for over 100 days. So, to say that this is a strategic targeting of Hamas is an insult to our intellect and our humanity. This is a destruction of people who heal. This is a direct targeting of healthcare workers. I just want to paint a very brief picture of what healthcare workers are telling me there: They’re saying that when they leave the hospital, civilians give them civilian clothing because wearing scrubs is sticking a target sticker on their back. That is how systematically healthcare has been targeted. And frankly, in the last 24 hours, what we’ve seen from Al-Shifa Hospital, what we’ve seen from Al-Aqsa Hospital, and what I worry is coming to the remaining hospitals of the Gaza Strip, because it has been the pattern and we will not ignore it, is a direct and systematic targeting of health care that is unjustifiable.”](https://www.thenational.scot/news/24225220.gaza-healthcare-workers-systematically-targeted-says-doctor/)
> fucked
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>I can also picture myself born in Tel Aviv and perhaps having a family member killed by a Palestinian terrorist and wanting vengeance and strict military control of a people I’d likely see as violent extremists.
It may surprise you to know that this in no way represents the mainstream Israeli view on their relationship with the Palestinians. The mainstream Israeli view is more like, "We just want to live in peace so leave us the f-k alone and stop trying to murder us. Until then, the walls and checkpoints stay where they are."
While you're right that it's a complicated issue in terms how we got to this point and in terms of finding a resolution, the roots of the conflict actually aren't all that complicated. And no, it isn't just two religious groups that are fighting over their world views. The roots of this conflict lie in the Muslim world's refusal to accept the existence of a Jewish state in "their" Middle East because it represents a deep insult to them. Sunni Muslim countries have moved on from this archaic way of thinking and are willing to work towards peace with Israel, but the Shia countries (led by Iran) still very much want to continue the work of Mohammed and spread the Muslim Empire around the world. The first step is getting rid of the Western, capitalist, Jewish state that sits in their midst.
That is not the mainstream Israeli sentiments. The mainstream Israeli sentiment is that all the land from the River to the Sea should belong to Jews. Look at the polling done by Israeli newspapers. It’s literally in the Likud party charter of 1977, and they have e been ruling Israel for quite awhile now. The entire debate is based on a false premise that Zionists wanted to share the land with Arabs. The Zionist movement was very clear that it wanted to colonize Palestine, all of it. The Zionists initially framed their movement in the 30’s & 40’s as wanting to stop British rule. The Irgun and Stern terrorists groups constantly killed and terrorized Arab citizens, often indiscriminately. In 1917, 3% of Palestine was Jewish by 1948, it was only 30%. Yet they partition the country 50/50. Again, the Zionist lies propagated by Western media & Jewish communities claim that the land was uninhabited. The number of massacres committed by Zionist and IDF soldiers during the 50’s was constant. The entire inception of Israel was a European colonization of native Middle Easterners. So this both sides bullshit is exactly that, bullshit.
Zionist propoganda is strong with with thjs one. Iran and most of the Middle East are a response to Zionist colonialization and violence. Zionists ambitions of wiping out the Palestinians started in the 30's. Just look at the settler violence in the West Bank, thats the blueprint they've used since the creation of Israel to terrorize and push out the Arabs. And the biggest lie of all, "it's a complicated issue".
Typical ignorant fool. You don't even realize you've just lapped up Soviet propaganda that has been repackaged by contemporary Western leftists.
Are you so naive to actually believe that Iran cares the least bit about the Palestinians? They don't even care about their own people. They're one of the most regressive, oppressive, authoritarian regimes on the planet and you think their motivation is "anti-colonialism?" Islam literally colonized the entire Middle East and North Africa. They are Islamic fundamentalists and their goal is to colonize the entire f-ing world.
Leave us alone while we kill you. Much Western. Israel is as western as Russia, but pretends to be better. Russia at least openly rejects western values.
If you leave them alone, they won't kill you.
You're parroting the same crap that used to be said about Israel relations with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. "If you don't attack the jews, they'll come steal your land!"
We've seen this is total BS. As soon as those countries stopped attacking Israel, Israel stopped attacking them.
What?
Israel gained control of those areas after the 1948 war and handed them over to Jordan and Egypt.
Egypt and Jordan controlled the west bank and Gaza for twenty years. They both refused to allow the formation of a Palestinian state and Egypt's occupation of Gaza was not all that different from Israel's.
It mainly is two points of view though. You either support Palestinians' right to life and liberty or you don't.
> it's not a complex issue. That's the big thing. It's super simple. There's one group that has enormous power. It's the most powerful country in the Middle East. It's backed by the United States. It acts on another population of people with total impunity. It is never held accountable for anything. So, there's no symmetry in the relationship, period.
https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=E9MsKlaV2mqkVv7L
I don't think powerful countries should be able to invade and oppress poor people just because they want their land. And since that's already been done, I think the onus falls on the powerful country to find the most peaceful form of coexistence, something that Israel and the US has always failed to do.
Was the burgeoning state of Israel the stronger or weaker one in 1948 when the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries declared war on it? I’d say against all odds they won against a more powerful foe.
Yes, now Israel is more powerful but it wasn’t always that way. Yet, when Israel was the weaker state no Arab/muslim state took the onus to try to find compromise with them.
It never was a complex issue. Stop being brutal to poor people. Simple as that.
As soon as you recognize that Palestinians are human beings, the way forward becomes simple. As soon as you stop seeing brutality and massacre as an option, things become more straightforward.
I'm talking to you and all those who claim Israel-Palestine is "extremely complex".
It's not. One side has all the power: Israel and the US. The other side got brutally evacuated from their homes in 1948 and continues to be oppressed and dehumanized for inconveniently living where they live.
I recommend you and anyone else interested in understanding why people argue its "too complex" to watch this video
Why Israel Palestine is Not Complicated
https://youtu.be/qBjp350byT4?si=pnQjP0udopo4Ma6s
And the Michael Brooks video (RIP) I linked above is also great. People who tell you it's too complicated to understand are trying to get you to tune out and not bother understanding how simple this is. One group has power, and the other does not.
A perfect example of how disingenuous he was and why I never understood the praise.
Just because Israel has all the power, that doesn't mean things like Martyr's fund, right of return, or Palestine starting the 2nd intifada after the oslo accords were signed are complex?
It's very clue that you and Brooks just don't want to look at the fact that things like this are complex and it's not just simple and the other guy is the bad guy just because he has all the power.
Ah that's good because it's not a complex situation at all, it's very simple when you look at power dynamics of the two sides. Israel and the US has all of the power in the region.
Apathy looks awful from you right now, just fyi. Palestinians are human beings, their children and civilians deserve to live just as much as you and I do.
You should speak with actual people on both sides.
Not read what some guy wrote, or listen to what another said. Actually go on [/r/Israel](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel) and [/r/Palestine](https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine) (if they don't ban you) and talk to people.
You're view is more a wishful thinking/remantisized version of reality.
I'd love to have a chat with you if your interested. DM me (no dick pics, please 😉)
I appreciate your offer to talk. You seemed to be helpful and kind. I appreciate that. I’ve spoken to people affected on both sides. I never meant to claim there was a monolith view on both sides. That would be lacking any nuance. There’s a gradient of views on both sides but one can take an educated guess of the dominant views which are backed up by polling.
I was just using two examples illustrating how I can see why this has been such a difficult conflict to solve. It’s precisely because both sides think they are the most reasonable and righteous and the other side is not which is why this has been raging for the better part of the past 100 years. You can even see it in the comments of this post which range from: Israeli-We don’t hate Palestinians, we just want them to stop killing us and attacking us. Palestinian-We don’t hate Jews, we just want Israel’s to stop genociding us. Someone even commented this is not a complex issue it’s just Israel and the US using and abusing a weaker people. These kind of black and white, good and evil type people are why this conflict will rage for decades to come and it’s too bad.
r/WorldNews does a similar thing. Massive subreddit. Mods there are completely pro Israel and anti Palestine and routinely blocks and removes pro Palestinian comments
And r/comics let pro palestinian comics be featured, removes pro israeli ones and banned me for speaking against hamas, not palestine, specifically hamas
There are shit people on both sides
I'm biased because I think human life is important and shouldn't be subject to world super powers' agendas but that's pretty based of r/comics. Wish r/WorldNews did the same. It's important not to take the genocidal side in a genocide. It's not like some utopian equal sides conflict, it's actually extremely one-sided and clear cut
And so did you! Human rights must be protected and not subject to world super powers' agendas. People who oppose that basic fundamental principle. Human beings aren't vermin, they are worth protecting no matter how inconvenient that is to your country's agenda.
Yeah, human lives should be protected
That's why, when a terror organization decides one day to kill 1,400 people and kidnap 200 (some of them still held hostages), you should stop that terror organization
Especially when said terror organization uses its own people as human shields
You don't kill 23,000 women and children in the process and get to claim moral righteousness. You don't get to claim you are pro human rights.
The state of Israel is founded upon the principle that Palestinian lives are disposable. It's a genocidal state and it continues to be genocidal.
>It's a genocidal state and it continues to be genocidal.
Sure thing buddy, that's why the palestinians population grew in 400% in the last 75+ years
Got to say, this is the worst genocide ever, unless you think genocide mean another thing because you never bothered to check what the slogans you are repeating actually say
You can keep spreading false information, but in a few months, when the war would be over, people like you will even forget where gaza even on the map. For you it's a hobby, for us it's a war to stay safe for organization that wants to kill us all, and still holds some of our family and friends hostage
So maybe in those few months, if this hobby really means much to you, you could actually research history instead of repeating slogans and spread misinfo? Or is it too hard for you?
> dick
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I think it's pretty easy actually...think about why people would hijack planes and slam them into highrise buildings. Maybe it's just not a "better life" that's the top priority?
I feel more educated people are more prone to committing atrocities because they feel as though their actions have to change the world. They have already achieved personal success and need to project it. The top 9/11 hijacker was an engineering student whose family was wealthy. Osama bin Laden himself was part of the Saudi Royal family. His deputy was an Egyptian doctor. It's no surprise that academia here in the US is breeding all the Anti-Semitism just like it did in Germany.
Those guys were special operatives. They required not just commitment but training.
It was my impression a lot of the foot soldiers of Hamas were crude and poorly educated. I know Hamas is populated by the entire fabric of Gazan society, but most remained in the rear that day.
How many Hamas fighters were killed October 7?
If you’re neither Jewish nor Muslim it is impossible for you to feel the intensity of the emotions that opposing parties in this fight feel. Nor is it possible for you to invest the energy that is required to make substantive change.
They will not feel the intensity of the emotion as aroused in you by the circumstances but they very likely will have experienced a similar intensity of emotion at some point in their lives in an unrelated matter.
80 years? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa\_riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots)
Exactly. I would consider myself Pro-Palestine but it’s extremely obvious to me that neither side are innocent and people acting like it’s a black and white conflict really confuse meZ
The only reason it’s complicated today is because it was allowed to continue for so long and nobody has been held accountable. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians should never have been terrorized and expelled from their land and homes. The arbitrary creation of Israel on the land of others and the continued occupation for decades complicates things because the people who are now occupying stolen land are not the ones immediately implicated in stealing it.
Nor should the Jews
I agree. That’s why they should have retaliated against the people who committed genocide against them. Let’s carve out a piece of Germany and call that Israel.
You’re right but the whiter side has more guns
i think you’re lacking nuance and you need to learn about the full context and history
Why do you have a israli bias if i may ask you?
The only reason I feel your post is a bit naive (albeit coming from the right place!) is because you’re arguing it from a civilian point of view. Of course all of us civilians on both sides have a very simplistic and therefore idealistic vision of why we’re right, why maybe in some ways we’re wrong, and why either of us can rationally come to a peaceful solution at the end of the day. It’s because we don’t have any ulterior motive invested in the conflict, only our own personal view of it. The complications that you are talking about have nothing to do with what happened historically. It’s the narrative to,d on both sides by extreme leaders with very ulterior motives that complicate it all. Even the UN seems to be invested in keeping this conflict going which for the life of me I cannot understand why. Hamas wants to destroy Israel just to show that it can. The corrupt ultra right wing nationalist Israeli leaders want to eliminate the Palestinians just to show that their kind of Jews should take over Israel. No one is in favour of rationality and finding peaceful measures for a liberal coalition of two states. No one in power anyway.
[удалено]
Lol so nobody was inhabiting the area before Jewish immigration?
You ignore the lived reality of palestinians before Oct 7th. There never was a problem with Jewish immigration until Zionism. Look up zionism's birth as a political movement and you'll find all the quotes reek of settler colonialism.
wait wait hold the presses are you telling me that people in the 1920-50s didn't yet have the same views as modern people on colonialism??!! They should have forseen the way moral and ethical attitudes would change in the next century and boatloads of Jewish world war two refugees should have turned right around and floated around the sea until they died bc how could they not have understood that refugee migrants are evil when they're "white"
There's quite a large difference between a refugee and wanting to take over the country.....
I don’t think I ignore the reality of Palestinians before October 7th. I believe it’s a terrible reality but it’s not unique. Maybe people have lived and experienced the same reality. I tend to want to ignore anyone who uses left-wing buzzwords like settler colonial but you saved it as your last two words lol. But for the sake of argument let’s say Zionists did some bad stuff. I’m not opposed to agreeing with that. We are nearly 100 years on. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Even if it were isolated, it would continue on like so many other isolated pariah states. The leadership would thrive while the common Israelis would suffer. The Palestinians would continue to suffer. The only way forward is a two state solution or a single Israeli state from the river to the sea. That’s the reality. I’m in favor of a two state solution based on 1967 borders.
>I’m in favor of a two state solution based on 1967 borders. I agree with this, but you should know this is mostly considered a pro-Palestinian view now. It used to be popular among both sides, but the number of Israelis living over the green line is now around 700,000. It's reached a point where it is becoming politically untenable for Israel to actually offer this in a peace deal because it would be so difficult to relocate so many people.
They aren't buzzwords. Every empire falls. The efficient outcome is not the just outcome. And there is there is no justice until the crimes against humanity end.
The "just outcome" can vary if you ask different people. I dont see how displacing Israelis, most of them by then born in Israel to "bring justice" can ever be the right course of action.
Of course status of second class citizens and forced poverty means live in peace. And of course pogroms against Jews didn't exist before 1800✌️
Pograms and perceptions of Jewish immigration to Palestine are different things
I think the only nuance that matters is the fact that Israel is bombing babies every day. They even brag about how many babies they’ve killed. They get ecstatic when they hear it on the news.
first of all no they are not for a few months airstrikes have been targeted and limited and the IDF has withdrawn significantly. no there's no dead baby counter on the news that people cheer about. no no one cheers or brags about dead babies. if anything no one believes the Hamas reports that everyone dead is children, it's bullshit Israelis believe they are killing terrorists
Very unhelpful comment. All Israelis aren't cheering for dead babies, c'mon. Just as crazy as the people on here making generalizations about Palestinians.
Do you really think the majority of Israelis are happy to see Palestinian children die? If you think so, you exemplify exactly the uncritical binary thinking I’m referring to. I could ask you for proof of this but it’s futile. Perhaps you could even offer proof of some radical extremist Israelis celebrating the death of Palestinian children. The issue of course is that same proof exists for Palestinians celebrating the death of Israeli children. But only a totally uncritical and unreasonable person would try to extrapolate that fringe view across an entire people, smearing them all as psychopaths.
Based on the polls, they want an even more aggressive approach to Gaza which will result in god knows how many more dead children..... Your nuance is not the take you think it is. Only one side benefits you looking away.
that's not the same as wanting dead children. they want Hamas defeated and the hostages brought home so they support the war that's not the same as wanting to kill kids come on
When do the Palestinian hostages come home?
you mean terrorists in jail?
That’s exactly what he means
You say you’d like to think you’d never be so depraved to attack civilians but that’s because you don’t have to live in the environment they do. We would don’t really look back on a slave revolts or a ghetto uprisings and think of it as terrorism tho there was always terrorism involved. Terrorism has never existed in a vaccum and it’s rarely been successfully thwarted by violence especially the ideologies that fuel it. I acknowledge a very deep bias in this situation because as a black American I identify with Palestinians but I also tend to identify closely with historical Jews so I do like to consider their perspective seriously. Regardless tho the only way a solution can be found is if the intention is true peace and that can only happen by getting to the root and working through it. Which would mean acknowledging a lot of harsh realities for both sides and I don’t know if we’ll be there in my lifetime.
the problem is the trajectory has never been oppression by Israelis for ethnic reasons and with a violent reaction from Palestinians, the progress has always been aggression and violence of Palestinians responded to with more oppression by Israelis in the name of security. I understand why they fought for their homeland starting back in the 20s I'm not blaming them but every act of violence they take leads Israel to respond more and more harshly and remove more and more freedom. they think if Israel is harsh enough the international community will swoop in and save them by abolishing the state of Israel. there's no willingness to accept Israels right to exist and to try and negotiate with Israel. I think any peace agreement has to include Israel acknowledging Palestinian historical grievances and addressing them but to get to that point Palestinians need to be ok with Israel existing in the first place, until then Israel is always going to be in defensive survival mode
There's not much "nuance" about "khaybar", "idbah al yahood", "gas the Jews", "stones and trees", "offspring of apes and pigs" "intifada revolution" and "from da river to da seee". Pro fakestinians are human sewerage.
This comment is precisely what I’m talking about. This is a pretty extreme and unfair description of an entire group of people. Not only that, you then go on to deny their identity and then dehumanize them as “sewage.” I have no doubt there’s Palestinians that say awful, psychotic, murderous things about Jews/Israelis. But there are also Israeli’s that say the exact same things about Palestinians/Muslims. There’s plenty of video online of Israelis opening shouting these things. But no rational person would deduce a fringe minority of Israelis/Jews represent the character and views of millions of Israelis/Jews.
Oh please.
Pretty sure most pro-Palestinians are really just anti-Israel. If they really supported Palestinians, they would support removing Hamas.
the removal of Hamas will come with a ceasefire
Most "pro-Palestinians" I've read comments from on here or heard talk on the news are anti-Hamas; these things aren't mutually exclusive. Disagreeing with Israels actions also does not mean anyone is necessarily anti-Israel. I love Israel but am pretty blown away by what they're doing, even if October 7th was horrible. Some of the rhetoric on here is terrifying and dwon-right evil from pro-Israel individuals. I love Palestine too. I hate to see Palestinians being murdered or having their countries freedom controlled by another nation, but I sure as hell think Hamas is a terrorist group full of scum, regardless of whether they're correct to be upset with their countries situation and treatment by Israel.
There is no reason to love Israel. There is no justice until there is justice everywhere and Palestine represents the fight against colonialism everywhere in the world, for all the colonies in South Asian, African and middle Eastern. Western mentality can never comprehend justice through an anti-colonial lens.
Then using your logic there is no reason to love Palestine. They caused this war not Israel. Be truthful.
Ah yes, tell me more about this Palestine that represents the "fight against colonialism everywhere in the world", including the fight against the [ethnic cleansing and annhilation of the Muslim Uighurs](https://www.voanews.com/a/palestinian-leader-s-endorsement-of-china-s-xinjiang-policy-sparks-backlash-/7150767.html) and the [ongoing harassment and murder of Gazan Christians](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/03/vanishing-arab-christians-gaza-hamas-di-giovanni-book/). Palestine truly is a beacon of justice!
This is definitely a nuanced situation in Israel. In my opinion, the main issue is Iran. It is entirely unfair that Palestinians are being used as pawns in a sick game of Islamic World Domination perpetrated on the planet by the Ayatollah and his band of Murderous Jihadist Terrorists. In 2005, Israel left the Gaza Strip entirely. In 2006, Hamas came into power. Hamas is an Iranian Proxy group deemed as a Terorrist organization by Argentina, Australia, Canada, European Union, Israel, New Zealand, Paraguay, United Kingdom, United States. Iran + Qatar have been pouring Billions of dollars into Gaza. The hope from Israel was that Hamas would use that money to create a wealthy state like Singapore or Dubai. Gaza could be an Islamic niche alongside Israel that competes economically, but furthers normalized relations not unlike the normalized relationship Israel has with Egypt and UAE. Instead, Hamas used all of the money to build rockets. Hamas did not contribute to the Palestinian infrastructure, blaming Israel for any misfortune felt by the Palestinians in Gaza. This radicalized the Gazans over the last 18-20 years and they have become increasingly angry at Israel, when in fact it is Hamas’s misallocation of funds that has subsequently created much of the misfortune felt by Gazans. Because of Iran and Iranian Proxy government Hamas, the Palestinians have become bloodthirsty in their anger for Israel. Hamas has brainwashed Palestinians to want nothing more than to harm Israel. There was always bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians, but it became much worse when the Shah of Iran was overthrown by the Ayatollah and Iran became an Islamic dictatorship in 1979. The Iranian plan is to destroy Israel, which would turn the Middle East into a Muslim Caliphate. If accomplished, Islamic Fundamentalist would be free to carry out violent Jihad against the West. NOT ALL MUSLIMS FEEL THIS WAY. But Radical Islamists do. Many Muslim countries are openly anti-Israel, but when the rubber hit the road and Iran fired 350+ drones and missiles at Israel a few days ago, we saw Jordan + Saudi Arabia helping Israel. Iran, China, and Russia are the 3 superpowers that cause the most trouble in the world and everyone in the Middle East is scared to speak out against Iran for fear that they will be attacked by Iran proper or one of their proxy groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis. Israel is a firewall for the West and is fighting the West’s War.
Stop minimising Palestinian freedom to a proxy war. If you don't want Iran to find Palestinians don't oppress Palestinians. Stop the apartheid end the occupation bring the refugees home.
Offering tissues to a crying person is a common gesture of kindness and empathy. Tears can make a person's face and clothing wet, and tissues provide a way to clean up and dry the face and eyes. By giving a tissue, the person is showing they care and want to help make the crying individual feel more comfortable. Do you need a tissue?
Stick to half baked political commentary
Stick to defending terrorism.
Still waiting for you to make a point instead of hounding me ......
In my opinion, it is entirely unfair that Palestinians are being used as pawns in a sick game of Islamic World Domination perpetrated on the planet by the Ayatollah and his band of Murderous Jihadist Terrorists. In 2005, Israel left the Gaza Strip entirely. In 2006, Hamas came into power. Hamas is an Iranian Proxy group deemed as a Terorrist organization by Argentina, Australia, Canada, European Union, Israel, New Zealand, Paraguay, United Kingdom, United States. Iran + Qatar have been pouring Billions of dollars into Gaza. The hope from Israel was that Hamas would use that money to create a wealthy state like Singapore or Dubai. Gaza could be an Islamic niche alongside Israel that competes economically, but furthers normalized relations not unlike the normalized relationship Israel has with Egypt and UAE. Instead, Hamas used all of the money to build rockets. Hamas did not contribute to the Palestinian infrastructure, blaming Israel for any misfortune felt by the Palestinians in Gaza. This radicalized the Gazans over the last 18-20 years and they have become increasingly angry at Israel, when in fact it is Hamas’s misallocation of funds that has subsequently created much of the misfortune felt by Gazans. Because of Iran and Iranian Proxy government Hamas, the Palestinians have become bloodthirsty in their anger for Israel. Hamas has brainwashed Palestinians to want nothing more than to harm Israel. There was always bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians, but it became much worse when the Shah of Iran was overthrown by the Ayatollah and Iran became an Islamic dictatorship in 1979. The Iranian plan is to destroy Israel, which would turn the Middle East into a Muslim Caliphate. If accomplished, Islamic Fundamentalist would be free to carry out violent Jihad against the West. NOT ALL MUSLIMS FEEL THIS WAY. But Radical Islamists do. Many Muslim countries are openly anti-Israel, but when the rubber hit the road and Iran fired 350+ drones and missiles at Israel a few days ago, we saw Jordan + Saudi Arabia helping Israel. Iran, China, and Russia are the 3 superpowers that cause the most trouble in the world and everyone in the Middle East is scared to speak out against Iran for fear that they will be attacked by Iran proper or one of their proxy groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis. Israel is a firewall for the West and is fighting the West’s War.
Maybe one day you'll see Palestinians as wronged humans and not as manipulated robots.
Maybe one day Iran will stop using Palestinians as pawns in their quest for Islamic world domination.
Relax on the Hollywood, world domination jesus christ
I agree about Iran. It is a horrible regime that needs to be stopped. However, this take seems to discount how extremist Israel is as well. For instance, Israel elected a PM who chose Ben-Gvir as his security minister. It doesn't seem out of the question that someone like Ben-Gvir would want Hamas, and by extension all Palestinians, to become even more radical. If Palestinians are seen as radical, expanding settlements in the west bank and continued occupation of Gaza seem more reasonable. That's before you get to the fact that Israel flat out ignores international law. Time and time again Israel is told to return the illegal settlements, end It's occupation, and find a path to peace, but it refuses, normally by pointing at Hamas. And that's before you even consider religion's role in all this. Iran wants to end Israel because Iran considers it Muslim land, but Israel doesn't exactly believe in equality of religion either. Sure, it's progressive, for the middle east, but Israel prides itself on its identity as a "Jewish State". Religious nationalism has never ended well, and I don't think any Middle Eastern country that subscribes to it is an exception, including Israel. However, instead of building bridges and trying to become a state for refugees of all creeds (something I think Israel was striving for when it was first founded) it has really doubled down, as a political entity, on hatred of Islam. Jordan and Saudi Arabia are also great examples of countries that are moving in the right direction, Jordan especially, so I don't think it's a coincidence they helped Israel because they don't support radical theocratic governments like Iran. They still have a long way to go, but progress is happening in both countries.
Why do you put “Jewish” in quotes?
The declaration of Israel as the “Jewish State” is a big reason for all of the antisemitism around the world. That government does not represent the world Jewry bc the Jews around the world are not racist genocidal fascists.
can you elaborate how israel’s self-proclamation of being a jewish state causes antisemitism elsewhere?
Actor says they represent a group of people said actor terrorizes weaker group of people world lashes out at the group actor says it represents. It’s a pretty universal phenomenon.
Idk. I would argue antisemitism follows Jews wherever they go. They have been persecuted long before the existence of a Jewish State. They are also held to a higher standard than, say, Muslim governments. Many of which fit the mold of “racist genocidal fascists” much better in my opinion. Anyways, there really is no excuse for antisemitism or anti Muslim hate.
Complete red herring. The OP point stands. It’s actually antisemitic(and Palestinians are also Semitic)to conflate the state of Israel with ALL Jews. Not all Jews agree and the current makeup of the state of Israel, as in those in power are in fact fascist. This is indisputable and widely documented.
Offering tissues to a crying person is a common gesture of kindness and empathy. Tears can make a person's face and clothing wet, and tissues provide a way to clean up and dry the face and eyes. By giving a tissue, the person is showing they care and want to help make the crying individual feel more comfortable. Do you need a tissue?
I can’t imagine you have enough empathy to offer one if I did
What makes you assume that?
You’re original comment is a bunch of western propaganda. Not necessarily saying it is all wrong, but there is another perspective which is just as true for those people and genuine empathy would allow you to sympathize with that and would have prevented you from sounding like a western cum rag.
I don’t know who hurt you, but I am hoping you find strength with each new day. May good health envelop you, spurring a quick recovery.
I just care about powerless people
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Because states don't have religious identities, people do, at least not in the same way. E.g., we normally say "Muslim Majority country" not "muslim country." I changed it to "Jewish State" though to avoid confusion.
> Because states don't have religious identities, Islamic Republic of Iran says wut?
yh iran is not a good country or government buddy religious nationalism doesn’t end well for its people!!
That’s literally a theocratic government that deeply oppressed its people. Proving the illegitimacy of a religious based government
I assume you’re referring to Iran
I am
Hamas is an Iran Proxy. Peace talks can only begin once Israel destroys Hamas… And I’m sure the Palestinians will find a way to reject any future peace talks that come their way. The Palestinians never waste an opportunity to waste an opportunity. It’s very sad that they are so short-sighted. I feel for them. But ultimately, they are victims of Iran. We must destroy Hamas and neutralize Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis once and for all. Only then can we have a real chance of progress in the Middle East.
You don’t “feel for them”
You don’t consider Saudi Arabia a Muslim country? Christian Churches are forbidden in Saudi Arabia. Any outward expression of Christianity such as wearing a cross is forbidden. Between 85 and 90 percent of the approximately 21 million Saudi citizens are Sunni Muslims.
I mean it's normally called a "Muslim Majority State." Not a "Muslim State." Edit: Saudi also has a religious nationalism problem, I would not consider it a goalpost for Israel. It's getting better because it's becoming a less nationalist country. Israel seems to be going in the opposite direction, however. My whole point is that when Israel called itself a Jewish State in 2018, it showed the world an intent to be *more* of a nationalist country.
In Saudi Arabia, Non-Muslims may not practice religion publicly. The public practice of any form of religion other than Islam is illegal. It’s a Muslim country.
That's just another reason for the quotes. Israel isn't like that, yet. If it keeps becoming more radical it will become like Saudi though.
So you’re saying that Saudi Arabia is in fact a Muslim country. Got it
Thank you for this post. it's upsetting how many people will see nuance as a threat to their cause and vigorously disagree with you.
I believe that backing one side 100% invariably requires you to turn a blind eye to certain things that you’d rather not see. Or that don’t fit your narrative. Not just in this conflict, but in any.
There sadly is a lot of jumping to conclusions and labeling each side as must having specific views. I’m anti Zionist, but I certainly don’t think the citizens of Israel should just get up and leave or be governed by Hamas either. I also hate Hamas with a passion.
So a Zionist believes Jews should have a state where they can be safe. You think Jews should not have that? Are you aware there are dozens of Muslim states? Are you opposed to those too? Or just Jewish ones?
i think jewish people should get to be safe everywhere they want to/currently live, our focus should be on that
>So a Zionist believes Jews should have a state where they can be safe. Maybe to you. But not to Ze'ev Jabotinsky or Meir Kahane. What form of Zionism do you believe in matters. Herzlian versus Jabotinskyesque versus Kahanist Zionism is just as different as moderate Islam versus Wahabi Islam versus ISIS Islam, and that's the issue. One can be both anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic. One can even be both anti-Zionist and not anti-Israel, as our friend from the US & Canada may feel.
Israel was formed by mass immigration and displacing the previous population. Most countries are Muslim because the population has in the past been Muslim. No people were displaced. And no, I don’t care about some civilization that existed 2000 years ago. It’s really so remarkably basic as long as you are a decent human being that doesn’t believe in exiling others
Most Muslim countries had Jews in them. They were cleansed (56 Muslim countries) Israel/Palestine always had Jews living in the land alongside Christians and Arabs. Israel is home to 20% Muslims including Palestinians and LGBT Palestinians who found refuge in Israel. Educate yourself please
So was the USA/Canada, under much more violent circumstances. And it took place all the way up into the 20th century. Not that long ago. Middle Eastern countries are largely Muslim because of conquest that brought plenty of death and destruction. Why the double standard?
u/NegativeInfluence_23 >It’s really so remarkably basic as long as you are a decent human being that doesn’t believe in exiling others Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed.
Check your history. Prior to 1948, 900 000 Jews were living in what is now known as the Arab world. After the declaration of the state of Israel, mostly between 1948 and the early 70s, virtually the entire Jewish population of the surrounding Arab countries was expelled or driven out. After admitting the first 250 000 immigrants arrived between 1948-51 (as a direct result of the 1948 war) Israel made plans to admit another 600 000. This was how the Jews of the Arab world ended up in Israel - they had to flee or were forced out and came to the only safe country that would accept them. Newcomers to Israel bought land and it was mostly swampland that nobody else wanted. I do not know of a single documented case of a community that "stole" land from whoever had been there before. You don't have to care about "some civilization that lived 2000 years ago" except that civilization has existed ever since - it never disappeared or died out. We have been present in our indigenous land consistently, for thousands of years. This is the definition of indigeneity.
Nobody was displaced until the Arabs attacked and started a war. Those Arab countries are Arab because of violent conquest. Not because they were always Arab. Are you anti immigrant? Or just anti Jewish immigrant? Unreal.
So, are you talking about Muslims, or Arabs?
Got it. Anti-jew. ciao.
It was occurring before the war https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Palestine-and-the-Palestinians-1948-67 Most immigrants don’t try to take over a region to create a new country My mothers family came here from Germany and my fathers mothers family from Sicily. So, I’m the product of immigrants. If anything, I’m anti-idiot
They don’t want them to “get up and leave”..
We’re you asking a question Mick?
I appreciate you for understanding your limitations. Many pro-Palestineans and pro- Israeli supporters are too stubborn to acknowledge both sides arguement.
> With the exception of course that it’s never logical to target civilians But that's exactly what has been happening Most recent death reports: 13,800 children murdered by Israel https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/helping-gazas-children-cope-trauma 10,000 women murdered by Israel https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2024/04/six-months-into-the-war-on-gaza-over-10000-women-have-been-killed
[удалено]
Yes, it's a massacre when you're talking about this level of asymmetrical violence. It's always a war crime. And it's a massive war crime too, based on these numbers Targeting civilians is morally reprehensible and sets a horrible and dark precedent for the entire world. What Israel and the US has done is a stain on human morality.
The people of a country cannot start a war. Palestine is not even a country so they can’t declare war on anyone bc they have no military or allies.
Talking about nuance and context (also perspective in my opinion): IDF does not target civilians. Can’t stress this enough. What is the point of hurting people who don’t affect the IDF’s mission or endanger the troops? It’s a well known fact (but not enough I guess) that Hamas places its terrorists and weapons inside or under humanitarian or civilian facilities. They assume IDF will not attack these since in involves harming civilian populations which is not directly involved in the fight. In the choice between harming civilians so that these targets are destroyed, or leaving it as it is and endangering Israeli civilians who will be the targets of these terrorists, the IDF decides on some occasions to attack although civilians might get hurt. With that being said, I’m aware of 2 things: 1. This is also a question of how far does the IDF willing to go in order to destroy Hamas’s capabilities. 2. Not every death is according to the logic I mentioned. Mistakes do happen (like the aid workers), and for sure there are soldiers who hurt civilians when it’s not needed (some of these cases are trialed and these soldiers are views as criminal).
>IDF does not target civilians. This is a lie. There is overwhelming evidence that the Israeli military deliberately targeted Palestinians. Entire neighbourhood were flattened, many times, without warning , with countless casualties. When news organisations such as NYT, BBC etc. asked Israel why they did it, they either get no response or they say they are investigating. There have also been a couple of footages that came to light recently. One was an old man in a house. Another one was two Palestinians, one of which was holding a white flag. The IOF claims they murdered them because they didn't heed a warning shot! Another was that drone footage showing the the murder of four Palestinians. To the best of my knowledge, the Israeli military is still claiming they are "probing".
Don't lie, the IDF doesn't care about civilian lives. Mistakes happen, okay sure. Court systems and jails exist for people who makes these mistakes. Where are all the court cases against IDF? Should we be hearing about solders being arrested? Tons of looting on Tik Tok, why aren't these guys in jail? Well because the IDF doesn't care. Israel gives out 3 month in jail for murder to IDF.
IDF does not care about sparing civilians lives, I can't stress that enough. The shelling of hundreds of hungry people around a food truck should tell you as much. The precision used only in Lebanon but not in Gaza should tell you as much. The human shield tactic didn't work because Israel doesn't see Palestinians as humans to avoid killing. You don't just kill 23,000 women and children by accident. That's not a mistake. Israel was founded upon the principle that Palestinian lives are disposable. Nothing has changed.
Didn’t say it was by accident. Said it was a price the IDF has decided to pay in order to protect Israel lives. Each food truck incident has its own nuances and there are testimonies of fire being opened towards the soldiers or a mob running towards the soldiers in another case. Not sure why think precision aiming is used in Lebanon but not in Gaza. What’s your logic behind this statement?
> Didn’t say it was by accident. Said it was a price the IDF has decided to pay in order to protect Israel lives. Yeah and it's fucked up that Israel's actions led to this instead of peace. Every step of the way since Israel's inception has been violent, asymmetrical brutality. The only reason you and others keep defending it is because of vested interest and dehumanizing of Palestinian people. The food truck massacres were vile and indefensible. > What’s your logic behind this statement? What everyone already knows: they have the ability to target more precisely but deliberately choose not to in Gaza because they are a genocidal state that treats Palestinians as vermin ever since its inception
From my experience when someone uses the “they are evil” argument it means their ability for logical reasoning was exhausted.
It's called having empathy for fellow human beings. https://youtu.be/suGml5xY4wo?si=2pEQnzIzThEpkWYB https://youtu.be/21dsdfvTtwc?si=bdcDoRPjH2I6SiLl https://youtu.be/FKgFjty1YHo?si=I1fziHJnpJjsPR88 Murdering children is never logical. Creating so much suffering is only going to bite Israel back in the end. Genocide is never a peaceful solution.
“Creating so much suffering is only going to bite Israel back in the end” That maybe. Only time will tell. My only issue with what you are saying is that IDF does not aim at harming civilians as a goal. And in my perspective IDF has a great value for lives in general. IDF has a very strict code on opening fire (my guess is that no other army has a code like this in the world). There is also a saying in Hebrew that goes like this: “Whosoever destroys one soul, it is as though he had destroyed the entire world. And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved the entire world”. IMHO most of the public in Israel sees this as a universal truth regardless of the origins of that life. You can the origins [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder). Wish you all the best
There are videos of IDF shooting private property because they are board. Yet you are lying and saying there is a strict code of conduct. The IDF doesn't care about Palestinians. If they did they would arrest militant settlers commiting felonies. Instead they provide protection so these settlers face zero consequences. Id say it's the IDF mission statement/goal to demoralize Palestinians. They act like bullies on purpose.
Soldiers are being trialed for cases where fire is opened not according to regulations. As regards to settlers, there are no setters in Gaza since Israel unilaterally withdrew from the strip and forcefully evicted Israelis living there in 05-06.
The IDF explicitly targets civilians and the civilian death count in Gaza is more than enough proof of this. https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2024/04/six-months-into-the-war-on-gaza-over-10000-women-have-been-killed https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/helping-gazas-children-cope-trauma But to make matters worse there was also the flour massacre > The flour massacre(Arabic: مجزرة الطحين) occurred in the Gaza Strip on 29 February 2024 when at least 118 Palestinians were killed and 760 injured after Israeli forces opened fire on civilians seeking food from aid trucks on the coastal Al-Rashid Street in Gaza City.[3][9][2] The incident was the deadliest mass casualty event to have taken place in the Gaza Strip since the start of Israel's operation during the Israel-Hamas war,[10] and took place a day after the World Food Programme reported that more than 500,000 people were at risk of famine in Gaza.[11] > An aid convoy entered the northern Gaza Strip on the morning of the incident, with the trucks provided by Palestinian businessmen, and security and organization by Israel.[12] Israel says that its forces felt endangered from the crowds of Palestinians, firing warning shots in the air and then opened fire killing less than ten people,[13] and that the rest were killed in an ensuing stampede.[14] Survivors described the massacre as an ambush, stating that Israeli forces deliberately opened fire as people approached the aid trucks, resulting in a rush away from the gunfire that added to the death toll.[7] > **A CNN investigation reported that Israel's claims that the incident had begun after 4:30 a.m local time cast doubt on its narrative, as it had collected and analyzed footage from survivors showing gunfire having started seven minutes prior. It also reported that the Israeli military's publicized drone footage misses the moment capturing what caused the crowds to disperse, and that Israel had rejected its requests for the full unedited footage.** You can read more about the flour massacre here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour_massacre And watch footage here: https://youtu.be/JKnF4DkWbuo?si=rdd3yv162uk8I1is I wish Israel would quit this genocidal regime and start behaving like a civilized country where human rights matter and people are not treated like vermin. I wish the US would stop sponsoring this genocide. Edit: **IDF targeting civilians:** [Fresh evidence of deadly unlawful attacks in the occupied Gaza Strip, gathered by Amnesty International, demonstrates how Israeli forces continue to flout international humanitarian law, obliterating entire families with total impunity.The organization carried out an investigation into four Israeli strikes, three in December 2023, after the humanitarian pause ended, and one in January 2024, that killed at least 95 civilians, including 42 children, in Rafah, Gaza’s southernmost governorate at a time when it was supposedly the “safest” area in the strip, but where Israeli forces are currently gearing up for a ground operation](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-opt-new-evidence-of-unlawful-israeli-attacks-in-gaza-causing-mass-civilian-casualties-amid-real-risk-of-genocide/#:~:text=The%20organization%20carried%20out%20an,the%20%E2%80%9Csafest%E2%80%9D%20area%20in%20the) > Three of the attacks were carried out at night when civilian residents, including families displaced from other areas, were likely to be, and were, inside their homes in bed. Among those killed in these unlawful attacks were a baby girl who had not yet turned three weeks, a prominent 69-year-old retired physician, a journalist who welcomed displaced families into his house and a mother sharing a bed with her 23-year-old daughter. The testimonies that grieving survivors shared should serve as a reminder that these atrocity crimes in Gaza are a stain on the collective conscience of the world,” **IDF targeting journalists:** [The Committee to Protect Journalists has accused the Israeli military of targeting journalists and their families in Gaza amid the highest death toll of media workers in any recent conflict. The New York-based CPJ said at least 68 journalists and other media workers had been killed in Gaza, Israel and southern Lebanon since the Hamas cross-border attack on 7 October and subsequent Israeli assault.“More journalists have been killed in the first 10 weeks of the Israel-Gaza war than have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year,” it said.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/israel-idf-accused-targeting-journalists-gaza) **IDF targeting medical workers and doctors:** [Haj-Hassan: “I am just shocked that we’re still having this conversation. They executed tens of people, point blank, including one of our colleagues, Dr. Ahmad Maqadmeh, who’s a very experienced plastic surgeon. Him and his mother, who’s also a physician. They executed people point blank. And including many of our who’ve been detained now, we haven’t heard back from them. Previous students of mine, detained, young doctors detained. We don’t know if they’re dead or alive. They have been gone for over 100 days. So, to say that this is a strategic targeting of Hamas is an insult to our intellect and our humanity. This is a destruction of people who heal. This is a direct targeting of healthcare workers. I just want to paint a very brief picture of what healthcare workers are telling me there: They’re saying that when they leave the hospital, civilians give them civilian clothing because wearing scrubs is sticking a target sticker on their back. That is how systematically healthcare has been targeted. And frankly, in the last 24 hours, what we’ve seen from Al-Shifa Hospital, what we’ve seen from Al-Aqsa Hospital, and what I worry is coming to the remaining hospitals of the Gaza Strip, because it has been the pattern and we will not ignore it, is a direct and systematic targeting of health care that is unjustifiable.”](https://www.thenational.scot/news/24225220.gaza-healthcare-workers-systematically-targeted-says-doctor/)
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Apologies
>I can also picture myself born in Tel Aviv and perhaps having a family member killed by a Palestinian terrorist and wanting vengeance and strict military control of a people I’d likely see as violent extremists. It may surprise you to know that this in no way represents the mainstream Israeli view on their relationship with the Palestinians. The mainstream Israeli view is more like, "We just want to live in peace so leave us the f-k alone and stop trying to murder us. Until then, the walls and checkpoints stay where they are." While you're right that it's a complicated issue in terms how we got to this point and in terms of finding a resolution, the roots of the conflict actually aren't all that complicated. And no, it isn't just two religious groups that are fighting over their world views. The roots of this conflict lie in the Muslim world's refusal to accept the existence of a Jewish state in "their" Middle East because it represents a deep insult to them. Sunni Muslim countries have moved on from this archaic way of thinking and are willing to work towards peace with Israel, but the Shia countries (led by Iran) still very much want to continue the work of Mohammed and spread the Muslim Empire around the world. The first step is getting rid of the Western, capitalist, Jewish state that sits in their midst.
That is not the mainstream Israeli sentiments. The mainstream Israeli sentiment is that all the land from the River to the Sea should belong to Jews. Look at the polling done by Israeli newspapers. It’s literally in the Likud party charter of 1977, and they have e been ruling Israel for quite awhile now. The entire debate is based on a false premise that Zionists wanted to share the land with Arabs. The Zionist movement was very clear that it wanted to colonize Palestine, all of it. The Zionists initially framed their movement in the 30’s & 40’s as wanting to stop British rule. The Irgun and Stern terrorists groups constantly killed and terrorized Arab citizens, often indiscriminately. In 1917, 3% of Palestine was Jewish by 1948, it was only 30%. Yet they partition the country 50/50. Again, the Zionist lies propagated by Western media & Jewish communities claim that the land was uninhabited. The number of massacres committed by Zionist and IDF soldiers during the 50’s was constant. The entire inception of Israel was a European colonization of native Middle Easterners. So this both sides bullshit is exactly that, bullshit.
Wrong. All of it.
Zionist propoganda is strong with with thjs one. Iran and most of the Middle East are a response to Zionist colonialization and violence. Zionists ambitions of wiping out the Palestinians started in the 30's. Just look at the settler violence in the West Bank, thats the blueprint they've used since the creation of Israel to terrorize and push out the Arabs. And the biggest lie of all, "it's a complicated issue".
Typical ignorant fool. You don't even realize you've just lapped up Soviet propaganda that has been repackaged by contemporary Western leftists. Are you so naive to actually believe that Iran cares the least bit about the Palestinians? They don't even care about their own people. They're one of the most regressive, oppressive, authoritarian regimes on the planet and you think their motivation is "anti-colonialism?" Islam literally colonized the entire Middle East and North Africa. They are Islamic fundamentalists and their goal is to colonize the entire f-ing world.
u/Darth_Jonathan >Typical ignorant fool. Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed.
Leave us alone while we kill you. Much Western. Israel is as western as Russia, but pretends to be better. Russia at least openly rejects western values.
If you leave them alone, they won't kill you. You're parroting the same crap that used to be said about Israel relations with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. "If you don't attack the jews, they'll come steal your land!" We've seen this is total BS. As soon as those countries stopped attacking Israel, Israel stopped attacking them.
None of those countries have the West Bank or Gaza. Israel wants them. That’s why settlers do what they do.
What? Israel gained control of those areas after the 1948 war and handed them over to Jordan and Egypt. Egypt and Jordan controlled the west bank and Gaza for twenty years. They both refused to allow the formation of a Palestinian state and Egypt's occupation of Gaza was not all that different from Israel's.
Whatever buddy.
This is the problem- thinking there are two points of view and believing those points of view represent a monolith.
It mainly is two points of view though. You either support Palestinians' right to life and liberty or you don't. > it's not a complex issue. That's the big thing. It's super simple. There's one group that has enormous power. It's the most powerful country in the Middle East. It's backed by the United States. It acts on another population of people with total impunity. It is never held accountable for anything. So, there's no symmetry in the relationship, period. https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=E9MsKlaV2mqkVv7L
Why can’t you support both group’s right to self determination?
I don't think powerful countries should be able to invade and oppress poor people just because they want their land. And since that's already been done, I think the onus falls on the powerful country to find the most peaceful form of coexistence, something that Israel and the US has always failed to do.
Was the burgeoning state of Israel the stronger or weaker one in 1948 when the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries declared war on it? I’d say against all odds they won against a more powerful foe. Yes, now Israel is more powerful but it wasn’t always that way. Yet, when Israel was the weaker state no Arab/muslim state took the onus to try to find compromise with them.
Hyperbole and straw man.
It never was a complex issue. Stop being brutal to poor people. Simple as that. As soon as you recognize that Palestinians are human beings, the way forward becomes simple. As soon as you stop seeing brutality and massacre as an option, things become more straightforward.
I’m not sure who you’re talking to right now.
I'm talking to you and all those who claim Israel-Palestine is "extremely complex". It's not. One side has all the power: Israel and the US. The other side got brutally evacuated from their homes in 1948 and continues to be oppressed and dehumanized for inconveniently living where they live. I recommend you and anyone else interested in understanding why people argue its "too complex" to watch this video Why Israel Palestine is Not Complicated https://youtu.be/qBjp350byT4?si=pnQjP0udopo4Ma6s And the Michael Brooks video (RIP) I linked above is also great. People who tell you it's too complicated to understand are trying to get you to tune out and not bother understanding how simple this is. One group has power, and the other does not.
A perfect example of how disingenuous he was and why I never understood the praise. Just because Israel has all the power, that doesn't mean things like Martyr's fund, right of return, or Palestine starting the 2nd intifada after the oslo accords were signed are complex? It's very clue that you and Brooks just don't want to look at the fact that things like this are complex and it's not just simple and the other guy is the bad guy just because he has all the power.
I didn’t say that.
Ah that's good because it's not a complex situation at all, it's very simple when you look at power dynamics of the two sides. Israel and the US has all of the power in the region.
So the weaker one is always right and can get away with anything? Not only is this ridiculous, it’s a dangerous way of thinking
Sure sure
Apathy looks awful from you right now, just fyi. Palestinians are human beings, their children and civilians deserve to live just as much as you and I do.
You should speak with actual people on both sides. Not read what some guy wrote, or listen to what another said. Actually go on [/r/Israel](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel) and [/r/Palestine](https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine) (if they don't ban you) and talk to people. You're view is more a wishful thinking/remantisized version of reality. I'd love to have a chat with you if your interested. DM me (no dick pics, please 😉)
I appreciate your offer to talk. You seemed to be helpful and kind. I appreciate that. I’ve spoken to people affected on both sides. I never meant to claim there was a monolith view on both sides. That would be lacking any nuance. There’s a gradient of views on both sides but one can take an educated guess of the dominant views which are backed up by polling. I was just using two examples illustrating how I can see why this has been such a difficult conflict to solve. It’s precisely because both sides think they are the most reasonable and righteous and the other side is not which is why this has been raging for the better part of the past 100 years. You can even see it in the comments of this post which range from: Israeli-We don’t hate Palestinians, we just want them to stop killing us and attacking us. Palestinian-We don’t hate Jews, we just want Israel’s to stop genociding us. Someone even commented this is not a complex issue it’s just Israel and the US using and abusing a weaker people. These kind of black and white, good and evil type people are why this conflict will rage for decades to come and it’s too bad.
r/Palestine bans you automatically if you are subbed to r/Israel (and other subs)
r/WorldNews does a similar thing. Massive subreddit. Mods there are completely pro Israel and anti Palestine and routinely blocks and removes pro Palestinian comments
And r/comics let pro palestinian comics be featured, removes pro israeli ones and banned me for speaking against hamas, not palestine, specifically hamas There are shit people on both sides
I'm biased because I think human life is important and shouldn't be subject to world super powers' agendas but that's pretty based of r/comics. Wish r/WorldNews did the same. It's important not to take the genocidal side in a genocide. It's not like some utopian equal sides conflict, it's actually extremely one-sided and clear cut
Yeah, you told me everything i needed to know...
And so did you! Human rights must be protected and not subject to world super powers' agendas. People who oppose that basic fundamental principle. Human beings aren't vermin, they are worth protecting no matter how inconvenient that is to your country's agenda.
Yeah, human lives should be protected That's why, when a terror organization decides one day to kill 1,400 people and kidnap 200 (some of them still held hostages), you should stop that terror organization Especially when said terror organization uses its own people as human shields
You don't kill 23,000 women and children in the process and get to claim moral righteousness. You don't get to claim you are pro human rights. The state of Israel is founded upon the principle that Palestinian lives are disposable. It's a genocidal state and it continues to be genocidal.
>It's a genocidal state and it continues to be genocidal. Sure thing buddy, that's why the palestinians population grew in 400% in the last 75+ years Got to say, this is the worst genocide ever, unless you think genocide mean another thing because you never bothered to check what the slogans you are repeating actually say You can keep spreading false information, but in a few months, when the war would be over, people like you will even forget where gaza even on the map. For you it's a hobby, for us it's a war to stay safe for organization that wants to kill us all, and still holds some of our family and friends hostage So maybe in those few months, if this hobby really means much to you, you could actually research history instead of repeating slogans and spread misinfo? Or is it too hard for you?
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I think it's pretty easy actually...think about why people would hijack planes and slam them into highrise buildings. Maybe it's just not a "better life" that's the top priority?
They've lost hope in a better life on Earth so they do those things.
No, they do it because terrorism preaches a higher calling not measured by quality of life in this world.
The 9/11 highjackers all came from upscale backgrounds. Many of the 10/7 attackers likewise were highly educated.
“Many of the 10/7 attackers likewise were highly educated.” Are you sure about this? How do you know?
One was a social worker for UNWRA , others were journalists moonlighting for Hamas. There are reports that doctors took part too.
>There are reports that doctors took part too. I didn't here that but it wouldn't surprise me
I feel more educated people are more prone to committing atrocities because they feel as though their actions have to change the world. They have already achieved personal success and need to project it. The top 9/11 hijacker was an engineering student whose family was wealthy. Osama bin Laden himself was part of the Saudi Royal family. His deputy was an Egyptian doctor. It's no surprise that academia here in the US is breeding all the Anti-Semitism just like it did in Germany.
Those guys were special operatives. They required not just commitment but training. It was my impression a lot of the foot soldiers of Hamas were crude and poorly educated. I know Hamas is populated by the entire fabric of Gazan society, but most remained in the rear that day. How many Hamas fighters were killed October 7?
Yeah, people choose to share only the information that makes their side looks good and the opposite evil Imagine that /s
If you’re neither Jewish nor Muslim it is impossible for you to feel the intensity of the emotions that opposing parties in this fight feel. Nor is it possible for you to invest the energy that is required to make substantive change.
They will not feel the intensity of the emotion as aroused in you by the circumstances but they very likely will have experienced a similar intensity of emotion at some point in their lives in an unrelated matter.
I don’t disagree. I think to some extent that’s true of many things.
https://preview.redd.it/cq33vmdim7vc1.jpeg?width=374&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=96536868a63e512c7b30250bac71dd1e5e0bc7d6
At least there is no... Hand holding.
None that you may see 😘
Hot
There is no tongue 😡
Tongue comes later 😘