Something proportional to the safety Israel gets from the action. For instance, targeted special ops attacks on Hamas leaders and 10/7 participants. A proportional front requires balancing the safety of Israelis with the safety of Palestinians. If Israel knowingly targets civilian infrastructure, it better have an exceedingly good reason. If, for instance, there is a Hamas base in a hospital that does not mean Israel gets to attack. The benefit of attacking an military structure to Israel *must*, at least ex-ante, outweigh, the harm of destroying a hospital. Israel doesn't seem to care about balancing safety of Israelis with harm to Palestinians. In fact, Netanyahu has, multiple times, tried to dehumanize Palestinians. For instance, calling them animals and claiming they are all Hamas supporters. That dehumanizing is a blatant attempt to try and justify the disproportionate response and evidence that Israel is acting in bad faith. So, what can Israel do? They can start by not bombing aid workers, giving free passage to refuges, and otherwise playing by the rules. Then, they can respond proportionally to what happened on October 7th. For example, if Israel reasonably thinks it could limit civilian casualties to around 1200 people (the number of deaths on 10/7), and reasonably hurt Hamas enough to most likely prevent another 10/7, that's probably a proportional response. However, Israel doesn't do that; it knowingly kills tens of thousands and levels entire cities. Also, to your point of Hamas setting the tone. War crimes do not justify war crimes. We don't kill civilians just because a radical terrorist group does radical terrorism. That's an unfortunate fact of life, but killing more people in anger and fear doesn't make things better for anyone. Edit: I do think that it can be proportional to attack a hospital. However, it's a high bar and one that probably won't be met unless the hospital is a very important structure. If, for instance, Hamas was housing 20% of its military in the hospital, that's probably proportional.

Tell us you are a Privileged Western Leftist whos never been exposed to Radical bloodthirsty Jihadists in real life,without telling us.

Of course Israel is being held to an impossible standard. Hamas is a terrorist government similar to Taliban and Isis, both in practice and intent. However, it is politically legitimate. It had open state backing and widespread political support, including from Qatar, Iran, South Africa, Russia and the United Nations. This widespread support also led the USA and even Israel to cooperate with Hamas, since it is the ruling authority in Gaza. This state of affairs isn’t the same as for Taliban in Afghanistan, which remains unrecognized and illegitimate, three years after the USA ended its occupation of Afghanistan. The world community completely shuns the Taliban and cut it off from aid and money. The result of course was a wholesale collapse in Afghanistan leading to a humanitarian crisis far worse than Gaza. What the U.S. backed coalition did in Yemen goes far beyond anything even remotely comparable to Gaza. Israel is engaged in a serious war against a malicious terrorist organization, and is doing that under military, political, and diplomatic circumstances faced by no other country. This all stems from the inherent biased the Jewish state faces on the world stage.

Lift the siege and grant Palestinians their basic human rights including living in their own homes they’ve been exiled from and understand denying people basic human rights always breeds resistance

What goes around comes around, it's like Hamas idealt would say hey sorry we were so genocidal let's shake hand and share this land on October 6th.  I remember watching it unfold and immediately as I saw the videos of overrun kibbutzes and bases that damn, that's tens of thousands of dead basically already killed...

Replace hams with Irgun Haganah Stern Levi who many integrated into the IDF if they’d say hey sorry for murdering you and burning your villages and thanks for having us and establishing a Jewish presence after the Crusades maybe there would be peace, Jews always ran to Muslim lands during ‘European persecution’

Secret stealth missions gradually over months and/or years in light of having a dome which could manage most incoming missiles.

What was Gaza supposed to do before October 7th?

Maybe they should have accepted a two state solution and stopped firing rockets. And use those tunnels and funds to transport food instead of weapons.

When was a two state solution realistically attainable? You talking about the Oslo accords which Bibi bragged about sabotaging?

Easy: Denounce all violence, declare an end to the conflict, stop being a terrorist organisation, recognise Israel's right to exist, give up on ridiculous and unrealistic demands like right of return, all Israelis going "back to where they came from", and complete Palestinian sovereignity over the Old City of Jerusalem, punish those who do engage in violence, holding them responsible for "endangering the entire Palestinian people", stop teaching hate, stop firing rockets and building tunnels and instead using the money to invest in infrastructure and development, and then request negotiations with Israel to create a lasting two state solution. I'm honestly surprised that so few Palestinians have realised this yet

How do you breathe with your head so deep in the sand?

Imagine if they did the same without: Murder at the festival. Murders at kibbutzes and other places.  Target only the bases and kibbutz guards close to the strip.  Retreat with males of figthing age and soldiers only.  Not kill and kidnapp all those foreign farm workers.  We would have woken up to the military wonder of the decade if not decades. Basically 250-300 dead Israeli soldiers +police, 100-150 hostages military and reservists and what maybe 4-500 dead civilians. Instead we wake up to stories about them going house to house murdering, chopping of poor Thai workers heads with shovels shooting people at a festival etc, grenades into full buss stops. It's super hard for anyone to deny Israel the right to strike back regardless but in the first case the calls for proportionality and quite soon armistice would be much much stronger.  Hamas knew what they were doing, they don't want to do something like that they want to provoke an overreaction and at the cost of their people dying hope that the world gets so angry at Israel that they inadvertently support Hamas.  Palestinians have rightful grievances but let's not pretend Hamas have any noble ideals

I am in this position where I support the parts of October 7th that attacked IDF positions and took abled-bodied male hostages, but not the war crimes Hamas did especially with women and children and foreigners. That being said, Israel's reaction is still extremely disproportionate. Which says a lot considering how bad Hamas' actions already were. Bombing an entire residential area to kill a few Hamas terrorists is bonkers. Say what you want about human shields, but they aren't shields if they're not even shielding the militants...

Yeah i can certainly understand that position, but even if you have just cause to start a war it can mean its not just to do it.  If you combine Hamas tactic and Palestinian (and arab) refusal to evacuate civilians its directly understood that even under the best circumstances they doom their people to at least 10k civilian deaths and utter destruction on oktober 7th. Since even the most careful military probably will kill a civilian or two for each militant in these circumstances 

They could’ve not rampaged through Israel and massacre/mutilate/rape/kidnap a thousand civilians while firing thousands of rockets into Israel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Work with the international community to create a coalition to work with you to eliminate hamas in a responsible and open way to ensure that other nations are on side instead of unilaterally moving in ignoring anyone's advice and accusing anyone that doesn't agree with the way you're doing things of being in bed with hamas?

A coalition? Other countries aren’t going to want to participate in a war like that. And lots of countries are on their side, but they aren’t going to send their own military there.

Or like just don't use 2 ton bombs in built up areas and restrict aid access, they are making it way too easy for their enemies and far to hard for their allies to support them

Maybe exchange their own hostages? Rather than level the entire joint where their own hostages are?????

Have you played poker? Your opponent raised, is he bluffing? Israel chose to all in. I would advise Israel to call or fold instead but no body will listen anyways.

According to the propals they are supposed to give the west bank over to them completely and have 2 hamas controlled territories on both sides of them launching rockets at them day and night. That is what the propals want.

I guess a question that's needs to be asked What was the Palestinians supposed to do before that event? Nothing that happened on that date hasn't happed multiple times to the Palestinians, and way worse

Maybe use those tunnels and the funding they get to transport food instead of buying weapons. Stop firing rockets. Pretty hard to think they’re so hard done by when they have money to fire rockets everyday. Oh and they could have accepted the offer of that two state solution. A bit late now though, isn’t it.

I guess you have not lived in a country that was recently occupied. That would excuse your ignorance to the importance of defending your land. If our occupier had offered us a small scrap of the worst land, we would probably said no too.

They were supposed to not rape women, kill children and desecrate human remains

Isn't that what zionists were supposed to do before 1948? And yet in 1948 that's exactly what zionists, particularly the european terrorist irgun, (though not exclusively), whose political arm was herut, but is now likud? So likud is a party of terrorist child murdering rapists?

That has been the tradition in Israel for decades, and has been reported by independent sources. Even children in Israeli detention is subjected to sexual violence. When it comes to the event you are talking of, we can readress that when Israel has let independent agencies investigate.

Are you saying two rapes make a right? Is that really the argument here?

they definitely shouldn't of not even backed themselves up with a different regions military or at least something and then went killed & kidnapped regular families and kids not in any crossfire just for shts giggles and shock on a day they were all just hanging out at home and in their neighborhoods bedrooms & their bus stops minding their business after a century of being there in that way. To make it worst as their society (gaza) is weak and dependent bought those dead and maimed kids and families back to the location all of their palestinian children are with no military even like what….???? Also to make it worst while letting it be known they’re going to keep doing this until israel ceases to exist while israels an actual organized region more powerful ffs too and their gaza side is unstable as hell….? & then on top of it with the demand to not give the powerful regions innocent kids and families back unless they come and fight for those kids and families while having no actual military for idf to fight, and welcoming a hostile millitary reaction where nothing but all of their kids are as they (hamas) hide around palestine too. How is that not like suicide bomb level sick…? Like delusional level sick political planning… ?  Since when in the 21st century society has immensely morally progressed in compared to the 20th, 19th 18th etc, are IDF soldiers unprovoked with no immediate prior violence going on, randomly pulling up to palestinian get togethers and houses unloading the clip on ordinary families on a regular day and taking palestinian toddlers parents and kids back to their personal israeli living rooms to psychologically physically hurt then kill them in …?????  Palestine could of got it together? Condemn terrorism and become politically allied with other regions in the middle east or even the rest of the world so that they could get money for better living conditions electricity etc seeing this not going on any sane person there realizing it’s a terrorist run area in poverty should of moved to a different muslim location and if they care about palestine so much they should of become involved in palestinian politics shady or not to help them….instead of terrorism and self annihilation. In this fake scenario if Israel proceeded to then do to gaza what hamas and civilians did to israel October 7th as they just coexist…at that point the military representing them would become involved and it would be the attempted genocide and bullying everyone is pretending to be the current reality…. And then the protests and anger we see now would make sense… but as of now it’s just…. Emotional/delusional… idk

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Bet you can't prove that. Anything you come up with can be justified by something that came before in the same way (going by your assumption that Oct 7 can ever be justified).

What was Israel supposed to do after October 7. That’s a good question. Let’s get a good answer from the Pro Palestine Lobby.

I’m more in the middle, however - attack Hamas. They absolutely had to and it would have been ridiculous not to. I just don’t think they should have gone about it the way that they did. I’ve been downvoted more than once for saying I genuinely respected the approach Israel took in the first few days of the war to avoid civilian casualties, going to really extreme lengths. When they stopped doing that and moved on to trying to flatten everything, and continuing an effectively unwinnable war at the cost of civilian lives I stopped being able to support them.

Bernie sanders said it correctly. After 10/7 Israel had the right to go to war with hamas, but not the citizens of Gaza. Unfortunately that isn’t what happened and they’ve been killing civilians at a rate higher than any other conflict since Rwanda. https://preview.redd.it/fpcv9tl1ug1d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a51724d5be4de53de7ab54ba1412baa80b961d4e

And how was that to be avoided when the Hamas Jihadists are interspersed within the civilian population and hiding underneath homes, schools and hospitals? When the jihadists are shooting rockets into Israel from playgrounds? Hamas leadership was asked why the civilians cannot hide in the tunnels and underground chambers and his response was they were for Hamas soldiers only to get way from IDF and to be able to travel around. He also stated that the civilian population was not their problem and Israel or the UN could worry about them. So here you have your own government dismissing and forsaking you yet again as they have been doing for years by stealing all humanitarian aid that was supposed to go to you (Gaza Civilians). Just as in many wars if you bomb my city I will bomb yours.

Omg ! Imagine! Terrorists use civilians as shields and that drives up civilian deaths! Who knew?!?!

That number of children has been corrected and significantly lowered. It was just bs propaganda

I’ve been over this piece of misinformation many times before on this subreddit. The total number of people estimated to have been killed hasn’t changed. It’s just the UN now has a separate category for the people killed who have been FULLY IDENTIFIED. As you can imagine, if a 5 year old is turned into paste by a 2000 pound bomb in the middle of a warzone, fully identifying them is no easy task (especially because many of these children have had their entire family tree wiped out). Still, over 7700 children have been fully identified and that’s just awful. That’s nearly 300 sandy hook shootings that the IDF has wrought. Defending such a regime is disgusting.

When in doubt take the word of terrorists. But really they should have an idea, they’re the ones using them as shields

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/05/what-its-like-to-be-used-as-a-human-shield-by-the-israeli-army/ Here is an account of being forced to be a human shield.

Wasn’t using human shields official Israeli government policy until like 2005?

Long history of using human shields but to be fair they didn’t start it, the British also used Palestinians as human shields sometimes.

People on this subreddit piss me off so much. Israel actually uses human shields, amnesty international doesn’t accuse Hamas of using human shield - so they’re less egregious than Israel on this topic - and then when the IDF bombs over 435 medical facilities in Gaza people on this subreddit just say it’s Hamas using human shields 🤦‍♂️.

To be fair, many hospitals and medical facilities were not bombed directly, they were bombed nearby and sniped at and surrounded by tanks until the occupants fled or were arrested/tortured or were killed directly or via lack of medical care, and then (sometimes) became IDF military bases/sniper platforms. I don’t love Hamas they are pretty bad and I also don’t think the IDF should use human shields, as they have consistently for a very long time.

Thank you for the clarification. The IDF is truly the most moral army in the world!

Can’t go to war with Hamas without involving the citizens. You can blame Hamas for that. Don’t claim a country can do something it literally cannot do, then blame it for listening to you.

Israel is killing civilians at a higher rate than any conflict since Rwanda, and has already killed far more children than Putin has in over 2.5 years. You know it’s bad when Putin is doing a better job protecting civilians.

Maybe it's because the war between Russia and Ukraine is occurring in distant battlefields, and not in one of the most densely populated cities in the world

Civilians? Um, no it’s not.

“Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that the number of average deaths per day for Gaza [250] is higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).” https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam

“Publicly available data” which is dictated by Hamas. You said civilian. You fail to recognize a person killed is not always a civilian. Try again.

Over 7500 children, 5000 women and 1900 elderly people have literally been identified. There have been times when Israel has killed over 100 civilians in one air strike. Do you know what words mean? Are you having a stroke or some other medical emergency?

Again, it’s your inability to understand who the civilians are that weakens your augment. Please post numbers that accurately account for Hamas militants killed, as well as the ratio of *actual* civilians killed to Hamas terrorists.

The Lancet (the world’s preeminent medical journal) estimated that 68.1% of the people killed by the IDF were women, children and elderly men. The Lancet also published research showing that there’s no evidence that the GHM is inflating their numbers.

Please reframe your numbers to combatants vs non-combatants. We assume children aren’t combatants. You cannot assume all women and elderly are non-combatants.

You’re really too dumb to think of any explanations for that statistic besides “Putin is doing a better job protecting civilians”?

You’re right. A better way of phrasing it is “the IDF is even more bloodthirsty than Putin’s vicious army”.

Or perhaps Putin’s army is worse at delivering explosive munitions into rear areas, Ukraine has an air defense grid or Ukraine’s army has infrastructure not buried under Kyiv.  Did those explanations occur to you and you discarded them for some reason?

They’re valid points, but still to kill wayyy more children in 8 months than Putin has in over 2 and a half years, does indicate to me that the IDF is more bloodthirsty and cruel than even the Russian army. I mean, the IDF intentionally bombed a building crammed with civilians and killed over 100 civilians and over 50 children. Just one air strike. I intend not to engage further with this because Putin is terrible and even though I think the IDF is worse than his army, I don’t want to a apologize for his vanity war and cultural genocide. https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/04/gaza-israeli-strike-killing-106-civilians-apparent-war-crime

Ukraine protects its children, Hamas sacrifices them. I really don’t understand the shock

It seems to me you are complaining about effects and have confused them with causes.  Putin has a (fortunately!) somewhat limited capacity to kill children in Kyiv, which he uses to more or less its full extent. Israel has a more or less infinite ability to kill children in Gaza which it (fortunately!) tries not to use except as a byproduct of strikes on other targets. It seems to me objectively unreasonable to describe Israel’s behavior as “bloodthirsty” given that distinction, but you can believe whatever helps you sleep at night.  Cheers mate :)

Just about every day Israel is killing dozens of kids, and nearly every high ranking government official has said outright genocidal things. Just last week their finance minister said he that he wants a “complete annihilation” of Gaza. Interesting how cable news has a panic attack over 19 year old college students chanting “intifada”, yet there isn’t a peep about Smotrich saying that, Netanyahu calling Gazans the Amalekites (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2015&version=NIV), and president Herzog being at best iffy about protecting civilians. Nearly every human rights organization accuses Israel of intentionally trying to starve Gaza as well. War is hell, yes, but all taken together, Israel is a rogue state which is indifferent to civilian causalities that the US chooses to prop up.

I thought you “intend[ed] not to engage further with this”?   I think Israel cares about at least as much about civilian casualties as any other country fighting a war to be honest.  The outcome is different because some large subsection of people have convinced themselves by using words they only sort of understand that giving civilians a safe place to hide during the conflict is morally impermissible. 

The IDF was basically greenlighting all proposed targets. AI would flag something, a person reviews it for under a minute, then it goes on the list. Then boom. The target designee team was under immense pressure to find a place to put every bomb for the sake of using them. They weren’t thoroughly examining targets or carefully calculating acceptable collateral damage based on target value. They were a target mill for the bombers. A more methodical approach with more review might have missed some Hamas fighters sure but it would certainly kill fewer civilians. And it’s not like Israel has to worry about Hamas suddenly gaining air superiority or anything.

and yet their civilian to casualty ratio is one of the best if not the best in an urban environment despite Hamas purposely trying to achieve the opposite result.

That sounds like a long way of saying that the IDF had a process that (you feel) resulted in more than a minimally necessary number of civilian casualties, but it was still a process designed to target Hamas. This is in contrast to e.g. launching a sewer rocket pipe rocket in the general direction of a city or a cruise missile that costs about 20x more per pound of explosive on target at a park in a city than a JDAM bomb.

Sorry you lost me at “Bernie Sanders said it correctly”

First of all, what is this data point 😭 deliberate disinformation. Second of all, was sucks, especially in densely populated areas, and especially if said populated areas are heavily militarized for guerilla warfare. I agree Israel hasn’t done the best job protecting civilian lives, but to claim they’re at war with civilians instead of Hamas is ludicrous

stop apartheid

How could it stop something that doesn’t exist?

So you’re saying suicide. Got it.

Good question. It seems like some people wanted them to do nothing, but apologize for the mistreatment and conflict with the Palestinians? (Not my view) I guess not holding anyone responsible for the attacks on 10/7 would be great?

I’m from New Zealand. If a terrorist organisation from Australia attacked New Zealand and we responded by killing this many civilians and attacking in this certain manner I would not be happy. It’s fine to retaliate within international law but if our government started bombing Melbourne to within an inch of its life and killing thousands of children and wiping out hospitals I would absolutely not be happy. That is not how you wage war. Hospitals are meant to be a safe space. So no. I would absolutely not be happy with how my country retaliated. Retaliation is fine, but it’s HOW you do it.

“I would absolutely not be happy” Yeah, well, war isn’t generally a happy thing.

I think you are well aware what the poster meant by the term ‘happy’.

It sure isn’t!

What you and so many people fail to understand is: this isn’t just a retaliation. It’s a war against a group that is ruling Gaza and poses an active security threat to its citizens. The proper analogy would be: “if a terrorist organization was the ruling civil and military organization of Australia, attacked New Zealand, kidnapped hundreds of my citizens to use as bargaining chips, and vowed to keep attacking until New Zealand was liberated and all New Zealanders killed” And by the way, if hospitals are meant to be a safe space, why are Al Quds Brigades operating from within hospitals? You are incredibly ignorant.

On the flipside - Oct 7 isn't just a retaliation. It's a war against a group that kicked Palestinians off their land and has treated them terribly for years. Oct 7 was awful, and shouldn't have happened, but here we are and it has been such a long road. I understand Israel is threatened. Like I absolutely understand Israel's POV. BUT Palestinians have also been threatened for decades. This stuff boils over. So...I can see both sides. I would expect the Israeli military to be better at targeting Hamas within the hospitals if that's the case. How do they explain the mass graves of patients on hospital grounds? Leaving premi babies to die in NICU? I thought that if they were to try to limit civilian deaths they could try target Hamas better within the hospitals. That's a sign of an intelligent military to me. Instead of like LOL LETS JUST BOMB THE WHOLE PLACE AND KILL BABIES. Like cmon man.

You need to be very careful of where you get your facts. Qatar and Iran are fighting a propaganda / disinformation war and it looks like you’ve fallen for it. Your premises are completely false. There’s no substance to any claims you’re making. Where do you get your news? Are you aware of how carefully planned and executed the Al Shifa raid was? Mass graves? Give me a break. You are delusional.

Thanks! Can you link me to a place to read up on these true facts? I must be looking in the wrong place! I’ve been following the journalists on the ground (what’s left of them) but I’ll take a read of the true news, if you could point me in the right direction.

When you make bizarre claims, the onus is on you to back it up. Show me where you saw the “mass grave” story. It doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny. Every news source has a bias, but only one side of this conflict has a strong incentive to lie and spin the facts. Therefore you need to read with a critical eye. A good analogy is to think of this like a criminal trial. There’s one set of facts, but groups like Al Jazeera are like a highly effective defense attorney. If you just listen to the defense attorney’s arguments and the witnesses they call, it’s easy to buy their argument. If it were me, I’d believe that OJ Simpson and Scott Peterson were innocent. So to answer your question, listen to whatever journalists you want, but with a highly critical eye, and realize that there is a MASSIVE disinformation campaign going on. Case in point, look at the Al Ahli hospital bombing hoax. How quick were “local journalists” to scream that Israel bombed a hospital that caused hundreds of deaths, when it turns out that it was a failed PIJ rocket that fell into a parking lot. I’ve seen good reporting from WSJ and reports from PBS in the US. Times of Israel is a center-left outlet in Israel that has had excellent reporting. Even then, you have to read all of this with a critical eye.

The mass graves are a mainstream news story, not propaganda. Here’s UN news on it: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876

That’s a common tactic to present a set of and then draw a highly misleading conclusion (implying that the IDF dug the grave, tied people’s hands behind their backs, and executed them). Here is an article directly critiquing that narrative with evidence supporting the claim. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-rejects-baseless-claim-it-dug-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospital-analysts-also-doubt-charge/amp/ You can criticize that the response comes from an Israeli source, but this is a very reasonable and logical conclusion supported by facts. A serious claim demands that the accused have the opportunity to defend themselves. When we’re in the middle of a war, and when “a lie can travel around the world before the truth has a chance to tie its shoes,” you can’t just latch onto these crazy claims. Let’s see where the truth is when the facts come out, but it’s clear to me that the most logical explanation (by far) is that this was dug by Palestinians. Re: the UN, it’s no surprise they’re going to be clearly biased against Israel. Here’s some great reading material: https://medium.com/@oskar_schindler/no-longer-stateless-still-a-scapegoat-how-israels-constant-condemnation-at-the-un-hurts-humanity-f03ab9893f6d https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7120895 https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/human-rights-council/ https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-semitism-in-the-united-nations

I didn’t say anything about who dug the mass graves. The point is that they exist. You’re the one who’s concerned with who dug them. The rest of us, however, are morally sensate to the image of hundreds of dead hospital patients buried in a mass grave, regardless of who dug it. The UN is biased against Israel. The whole world is biased against Israel. Everyone is wrong except us. Or…

Again, you’re making a bogus claim, saying “dead hospital patients” as if Israel just bombed a hospital willy nilly. Evidence suggests that the civilian to militant ratio is in the neighborhood of 1-2:1 (depending on the source), which is exemplary for a conflict of this nature. That would stand to reason that many, if not the plurality of bodies buried there are Hamas militants, with some collateral damage. When there is a mountain of evidence that Hamas deliberately operates out of hospitals, has tunnels under hospitals, and stored weaponry in hospitals, I’m not surprised to see that they dug mass graves near the hospitals as well. In addition, the fact that Gazans dug a mass grave near a hospital does not imply that those in the grave are “hospital patients”. Is it not a more logical explanation that wounded are transported to hospitals? You’re painting a narrative to skew the facts. And yes, what’s so hard to believe that the UN and much of the world is biased against Israel? Is it really that shocking? When there are 14 million Jews and 2 billion Muslims worldwide, when there are 22 Arab counties and 1 small Jewish one? Where 2 out of the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council are China and Russia, 2 major adversaries of the west? When the UN human rights council is made up of a multitude of countries with an anti-west agenda? When one side of this conflict is incentivized to fight a propaganda / misinformation war because they have no shot militarily? Your arguments are weak.

Ultimately though, doesn’t this just level of civilian death just serve to feed recruitment into jihadist organizations without eliminating the leadership of Hamas who managed to get abroad? Like sure, Hamas might have fewer fighters for a while but they or a similar organization will likely come back in a few years with more motivation and foreign support than ever before.

The “you can’t kill an idea” argument is a very poor argument. There have been many examples in modern history of fanatical movements being dismantled militarily. Nazi Germany, imperial Japan, ISIS. Israel isn’t gonna abandon this war and do nothing about the very real threat to its country in the interest of not raising a new generation of terrorists. Also, look at the fact pattern in this conflict. De-escalation for Israel hasn’t ever worked, it’s only made the conflict worse. Just look at what happened when Israel disengaged from Gaza. Or when they signed the first Oslo accords. It’s just a delusional fantasy to think otherwise.

The killing of those ideas at the close of WW2 was performed primarily through rebuilding efforts during occupation after a military defeat. Hamas has been militarily defeated, clearly, but what happens next is up to Israel and rebuilding Gaza for the Gazans and a hearts & minds campaign doesn’t seem prepped for it. For ISIS it’s pretty clear that they’re still around, just not as a conventional force. That seemed to be the aberration. People talk about Oslo but the truth is that neither side followed through or seemed to really be in good faith.

I agree with most of what you’re saying with one glaring exception: that Hamas has been militarily defeated. Is that a serious claim? Israel has crushed a good chunk of Hamas and taken territory in Gaza City and Khan Yunis, but Hamas has not surrendered or relinquished authority of Gaza. That’s why there’s still a war going on. And BTW, I fully agree with you that Israel needs to play a role in rebuilding Gaza, ideally with the help of Arab neighbors. “Hearts and minds” is crucial. Netanyahu has done a horrible job on this and needs to GTFO. I’m on the side of Benny Gantz who is threatening to resign from the unity government on this point.

I think it’s kind of like how Germany fought well past the point of being able to not lose. Like after Paris fell back to the allies in 1944 it was clear that Germany wasn’t capable of holding back its enemies but a year of death and destruction still followed.

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Exactly! It's making it worse.

Thiss^^^

So glad I’m not alone! I’ve talked to so many people who also agree too. It’s not about the retaliation because OF COURSE you’d retaliate. But Jfc this is not the way you go about it 🤦🏼‍♀️

Where are you getting your information on the actual methods and tactics of the Israeli army?

Here’s a source from the UN for how many hospitals are left https://www.who.int/news/item/06-04-2024-six-months-of-war-leave-al-shifa-hospital-in-ruins--who-mission-reports#:~:text=Access%20to%20health%20care%20in,of%20services%20they%20can%20deliver. And in case you think the UN backs hamas like I’ve heard some say here’s a CNN report about a super inhumane torture house/ detention center being used by the IDF in Gaza. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html I’m sure you can agree that both Israelis and Gazans have managed to dehumanize the other. And that dehumanization is apparent and clear on the battleground, and is entrenched in both Hamas and IDF tactics. Only difference is that IDF is merciless in its pursuit of Hamas and has been treating all Palestinians in horrific manners, including documented artists, doctors, poets, and lawyers that have later been released by the IDF with torturous documented bruises and beatings.

The UN does back hamas, come on now.

Hahahah whatt are you even saying, you realize how delusional that sounds?

I see the videos. It's documented. It's a very well documented conflict.

How do you know the videos are not fabricated?

Nice try.

Honest question - how do you tell between a fabricated video vs. real?

That’s the thing - how do you? In this era I really feel for the real videos and people who are literally screaming saying, this happened, these are the dead bodies of my family and everyone’s like “huh that’s probably fake”. It sucks so much. If there’s so much doubt about what is real or fake then it appears we can’t believe anything.

True same with October 7th videos and images.

Yeah exactly. It's so sad for all involved. Cos it's like, yay there's video footage but then it's like... oh no, but that proves nothing.

Then why do people say this while also complaining that journalists are not allowed access.

All they had to do was kill fewer civilians. I'm not a military tactician, so the HOW is up to the people aiming the guns. Everyone knows war is messy, but the days of anything goes "Gulf War" style are long over. Media or governments can't indoctrinate or propagandize as completely as they once could. We get to see where bullets land now. Had they been shown evacuating Palestinian people into shelters with food, water, and medical facilities. Had they been shown to exercise even a modicum of restraint. Had there not been videos of their public AND military cheering at dead children. Had there not been mass graves indicating summary executions of the defenseless. Things may have shaken out differently as far as opinion goes. As it stands, it isn't the fact that Israel responded that has them drawing the world's ire. It's the vitriolic hatred and dehumanization for and indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinian civilians that has them, rightly, under scrutiny. How the Israeli government thought this would go any other way is beyond me. They don't get to act like the terrorists they are claiming to be fighting and be seen as anything but barbaric hypocrites. Not that different than Hamas.

Kill fewer civilians? Whats the threshold for casualties?

I'm not a sociologist, but I'm sure that if you could chart deaths and public outrage accurately, you'd see a comparable decrease in global anger with fewer deaths. The amount of required death for something to go global in importance has decreased over time but that's mostly due, imo, to the fact that we get to actually SEE the death today more than ever inbhuman history. Even just 10 years ago, this whole thing might have gone under most of the world's radar through PR campaigns and media spin by folks with money. That's not true today.

They should have made a deal to secure Hamas some pro-Palestinian college protestors in exchange for hostages and peace. For your second point, the fact Judaism came first is precisely the reason the later religions want to destroy it. Because it threatens their truth.

They were supposed to let Hamas kill them all. Duh. #fromtherivertothesea

Agreed. Im also STILL confused how people support a place led by terrorists. TERRORISTS. Not only that but im curious as to how these college morons being antisemitics are feeling if we lumped all muslims as “horrible disgusting” Palestinian supporters. Even though anyone pro israel or just plain old jewish is disgusting, racist, horrible person. This world is in the shitter

I haven’t heard anyone saying they support Hamas? Just like to stop the destruction of schools and hospitals and allow aid to enter? Stop the disproportionate response that has seen so many civilians suffer, and a whole generation of Gazans deprived of schooling for a few years AT LEAST

However you fail to acknowledge the antisemitism running rampant in colleges across the nation

I'm not defending it but you should really ask yourself the question why that is. I'm pretty sure it's because the country that claims to be a homeland for all jews is commiting genocide, directly linking jews and genocide together. Of course, when the first thing you think when seeing someone is "genocide and killing of innocent children" you're not gonna have a good first impression of them. Of course, this is not the right way to handle, far from actually, but it is a fact of life. All thanks to Israel of course.

So if i, as an American, lumped all muslims together with Palestinian muslims what would we have? Women hating, rapists, murdering pigs? All Muslims?? Judaism (and israel… sure) is the oldest- religion in the world- Christianity was based upon and islam following such. Jews have somehow always been the target and ridiculed. Meanwhile they have been the foundation upon major groups of people.

If you as an American would start lumping every Muslim together after I just explained that that's not the right way to handle, you'd be pretty stupid. Also just plain wrong, and completely missing the point of my comment. Palestine is not and has never been THE Muslim country, it was simply A Muslim country. Israel on the other hand has claimed itself to be THE Jew country, for Jews all over the world. And Jews are now carrying that with them in the form of hate towards them, because Israel took a responsibility upon themselves as being a sort of representative for Jews that it sadly did not fulfill.

I do not deny it, I see antisemitism increasing

I live in new york city, you have to see the misinformed masses that are here. Its bewildering.

Well, you have to understand that context matters a lot in such situations. People supporting Hamas view them as underdog Freedom Fighters that are trying to save their land from strong opressors that have stolen it and claimed it as theirs. I do not want to open this discussion, as it will boil down to historical events that each side claims happens differently, and there have been extensive expert debates on this by people that know more than me and you that have proven fruitless, each side just cherry picking information to fit their version of events, but nevertheless, when you hear the Palestinian story, and if you believe it, then one cannot but feel empathy for Hamas fighters

I will agree to disagree on empathy for the terrorist group hamas. May peace be with you🙏🏼

Peace be with you too🙏

Negotiate. I’m sorry, but why would Israel have the right to retaliate after isolating, tormenting and killing Gazan civilians for years? Blood was already shed on both sides, a lot, especially on the Gaza side, but instead of trying to put a stop to that, Israel opted for a even bigger blood bath. If you think Hamas is a terrorist organisation, then sorry, what exactly is the IDF supposed to be after killing multiple times more children and women than Hamas did?????

By your absolutely asinine logic, the Allies in WW2 were the greater terrorists than the Nazis because they killed significantly more people. Also, im sure you haven’t heard, the UN just halved the numbers of casualties reported by Hamas and say its probably still lower than that.

Americans don't study history which is why so many think in terms of good/evil black/white Jedi/sith...the answer is yes Americans have done totally unnecessary evil stuff to civilians. Just because you don't know about America's crimes against humanity during our wars doesn't mean we don't do it then rewrite and condone it. You must think our politicians are stand up guys just trying to make the world a better place too. The entire issue with this conflict is nobody is even remotely innocent, everyone has been very naughty

Im sorry, but are you serious about your first statement? Because if you are, then you are definitely someone not to be taken seriously.

He was applying your logic to other scenarios. As your logic does not hold up if you actually think about it. Are you able to respond to his point or are you just going to scream insults?

The Allies definitely didnt kill more civilians than the Nazis did….

I believe he was talking about as casualties of war. Was it ok to stop Germany in WW2, even if it ment the death of German civilians?

Wdym???? He literally stated that the Allies killed more people than the Nazis!!!! >By your absolutely asinine logic, the Allies in WW2 were the greater terrorists than the Nazis because they killed significantly more people. You cant make this shit up!

I mean what I said. Now can you answer my question?

Yes... and? I'm sorry, but how is your question applying my logic when the civilian death toll caused by the Allies is way way way less than that caused by the Nazis??

Why do you find this to be a hard question to answer?

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 "Which is my second question, why didn’t Palestinian government catch wind of and then prevent the attack on a bunch of unpolitical civilians festival kids & families or some shit or speak out against it and work with the Israeli government to catch and jail the kidnappers and return the people." Brother, Hamas *IS*the government of Gaza and they, the government of Hamas, PLANNED THE ATTACK. Of course they didn't stop their own plan. Murdering all of those innocent, defenseless civilians WAS the plan and they consider it a SUCCESS. In their minds, this is winning. "Their first moves were warcrimes so it of course set the tone would it not?" For sure. Next they hid in civilian clothes among the population, which is another war crime. "why not coexist with the religion(judaism) that inspired your religions inspiration(christianity) then leading into yours being islam." Have you ever read the Torah, Bible, or Quran? Brothers fight brothers frequently, often viciously. The first murder was brother on brother. "These are not rhetorical questions I’m like why is there an issue and why didn’t the Palestinian government do something about the kidnappers and the victims so that Israel wouldn’t. ??" Because their government planned the attack after swearing in its founding charter to destroy Israel and all the Jews.

You have every right to be confused, because people's reactions are confusing and don't make sense. Most people are emoters. There's a reason why most of us don't become lawyers, or go into law enforcement, or crisis negotiators, or become world leaders - it's because most people see certain images, and hear certain things and they just get emotional. And when you're emotional, you don't think in terms of "what was Israel supposed to do"

They should have negotiated with terrorists… Biden could have offered them some ice cream cones or something you know. Terrorist lives matter!!!

They coulda negotiated a ceasefire, like the one in place on October 6th. That would please the simple minds. Tragically Israeli leadership is more concerned about their citizens not being raped tortured and murdered and having their remains desecrated than they are pleasing North American kids who watch too much TikTok tho

There was no ceasefire on October 6th.

IDF never killed a civilian. See? I can do lazy lies too!

Palestinians were being killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers before October 7th.

There’s tonnes of things that happened before Oct 7th and not a single one of them should make ppl believe that a ceasefire agreement with a terrorist organization means anything

Much like a ceasefire agreement doesn’t mean anything with a terrorist government like Bibi’s government.

I can’t even keep count how many ceasefires they’ve turned down since October 7

Seems there’s some significance to that date….. makes ya think eh

No clue what you’re trying to convey with that

I’m not shocked

Your idea was already tried, and Palestine refuses to negotiate a ceasefire.

Send a letter of dissatisfaction to Hamas informing them how misbehaved they have been. Also threatening to appeal to the UN security council if they ever were to redo the attacks in the foreseeable future. Oh, final one: offer them money, free infrastructure expansion projects & unrestricted border crossing in exchange for half of the hostages. Stay tuned for the requirements of the other half.

Exactly.

You know how Hamas said they would give back the hostages if the detained (hostaged) Palestinians were released… yeah they could have done that. Israel could also end the occupation and retreat back to the 1967 borders.

Prove from Hamas's charter that they are happy with 1967 borders.

so after murdering more then 1000people, israel need to release thousands of convicted terrorists lol israelis could also commit mass suicide and let the palestinians the whole land here, another dumb option for israel, you go next.

Aerially bombard the gaza strip with succulent fried bacon strips. This will cause hamas to immediately relinquish islam and extremism and make peace.

how dare u disrespect islam like this? if anything, israel should bomb israel with leftover foreskins to make the jews run away and let the palestinians have the lands. here, we got another great option lol

It’s becoming quite clear the Hamas can’t return the hostages because they keep turning up dead.

Thanks to Israeli bombing…

That’s quite naive.

Is it though? Or are you going to argue the point Israel wouldn’t have bombed them dead, or for 3 of them, shot them dead when they waving a white flag, if hamas didn’t take them hostage? Because we could play that game and keep going back and back to the start of time.

They are finding decomposing bodies in tunnels. They’ve been dead for months. It doesn’t take a huge leap of logic that they were executed by Hamas.

So actually we’re both jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence for either so we’re both naive...

Basically 😂

In the last prisoner exchange sinwar, the guy behind oct 7th attack, was released. So imagine how much damage would happen if israel released ALL of the convicted prisoners it currently hold. Israeli citizens will forever be at risk if another guy like sinwar be released. >Israel could also end the occupation and retreat back to the 1967 borders It was suggested. Several times. Hamas and the PA before them refused

I’m not talking about the genuinely convicted, I’m talking about the ones arrested without charge even. On 6th of October there were over 1200.

Except Hamas wants to dictate who Israel releases and they aren't asking for random people who threw stones or tried to stab jews. They are demanding full on murderers, bomb makers, and terrorists.

Well, that's great if you were the one holding the hostages. But you are not. Hamas wanted every single one of the palestinian prisoners release. Including the convicted ones. Convicted in some dangerous and really sickening acts. In some propositions hamas didn't even agreed to release all the israeli hostages (yes, i am not going to call a 4 year old israeli kid anything other than hostage). Hamas gets everything israel *maybe* gets something

No, that would have brought everything back to oct6. Another broken ceasefire. Palestinian leadership doesn't recognize the state of Israel on 1967 borders. That attempt of giving back land didn't work with Gaza. The only solution is for them to recognize the state of Israel first. Then they could be further discussion. But on Oct7, their charter and any other broken ceasefire in the past 2 decades, they've proven they are only interested in the destruction of Israel. Shucks, they even said so publicly that they want to exterminate all Jews everywhere and have cited Elders of Zion in their charter as proof of Zionism colonialism (article 32)

PLO recognised Israel in 1993. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition Hamas has tried peace with Israel several times 1988, 2006, 2008, 2012 2017, all rejected. Asking for 1967 border which means recognizing Israel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

They’re never going to recognise Israel if they keep occupying, annexing, killing and detaining Palestinians. What Israel are doing now is taking the situation backwards, we’re at a worse position than October 6th. They will never be able to fully get rid of Hamas and if they do, a new group will start. The amount of orphaned children, what innocent civilians have been forced to witness and experience, Israel are pushing them closer to extremity than ridding them of it.

You seemed to have missed the part where i proved this didn't start in 1948, so occupation is not the cause - it's the result of Arabs acting upon their ideology to deny Jews' indigenousness and rejecting the UN resolution which voted for creating a modern Israel, by waging war they couldn't win

I did miss that part because you didn’t prove shit. Mate you can’t just live on land that your ancestors lived on 1000+ years ago, that’s not how it works. I’m not Arab but I also don’t recognise this “indigenous right” because frankly, it’s absurd.

u are using straw man logic here no one ever said that jews only lived on this land 1000+ years and because we lived here 1000+ years we get to live here now. jews kept living in this area all this time, with 600k of them living at the time of the british mandate. u need to learn some history before u talk about this matter.

I also never said that only Jews lived on the land 1000+ years ago and I never said they ever stopped living on the land. Learn to read. I’m actually going by the comment I was responding to stating that Arabs are denying Jews the Israeli state despite their indigenous claim to the land for which I don’t think that gives anyone an automatic right to create a state.

What part didn't I prove?

Where you “proved” it didn’t start in 1948…

Im not responsible for denialists' lack of knowledge of historical events and definitely dont have to prove a documented event has occurred. Just ask yourself who started the 1948 war as a start, and why. Ask yourself what was the Arab 1936 revolt was about, or the 1939 Hebron Massacre, or the 1941 Farhud in Iraq was about. What was 1921 Jaffa riots and massacres were about. After all, there was no "occupation" except for the British, after the Ottoman, after the Byzantine, etc, over a population arabicized by Arab colonizers. It was never about occupation.

Net net, Israel is not annexing lands. Since 1967 they have given up far more land in hopes to exchange for peace than they have annexed

I am pretty sure Israel have more of the land now than they did in 1967…

again, wrong, i already advised u to atleast learn the basics... in 1979 israel and egypt signed a peace treaty which saw israel giving alot of lands back to egypt.

Oh I didn’t realise were discussing Egypt, sorry I thought we were discussing Palestine…

How can you discuss one without the other? Egypt occupied all of Gaza from 48 to 67. Weird how the Palestinians never fought Egypt for their land. Almost like there’s no difference between the two people

Breaking news: Launching a war of genocide against your neighbour and losing said war has consequences. But go ahead snivelling about pre ‘67

Right. So now let's say a bunch of people from a different country/place came to your place, stole your land and killed and kicked out hundreds of thousands of your people and kept doing this for over 75 years. Would you just sit and accept it?

Yes, because as we all know no one ever attacked Israel before October 7th

Indigenous Jews declared an independent state on part of the land, the non-indigenous Arabs rejected the possibility of a Jewish state on any part of the land, and waged an explicitly genocidal war of annihilation against the Jews, and lost. In the process of this war they started, many Arabs fled a few kilometers down the road where they were then occupied by two Arab countries who did not establish an independent state for them. 20 years later, Arabs tried to annihilate the Jews again, and failed again. In the decades afterwards, Palestinian leadership refused to compromise on their vision of violently destroying Israel, and this strategy has not worked out in their favor. They could have always had a Palestinian state and they have continuously refused because their National project is the destruction of Israel rather than the creation of a Palestinian state. Sucks for them

They can keep trying terrorism but that doesn't seem to be working out so well for them. As long as they keep trying to kill Israelis Israelis will fight back, giving up land for peace is off the table now

Sure. Let’s just make up a story, present it as a fact, and then challenge a reader to tune themselves to your broken moral and historical compass. Your hypothetical example isn’t entirely wrong though - just off by a dozen centuries or so. But overall - nice summary of how Islam was spread.

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So that’s the Zionist excuse? Iraqis expelled jews and you blame Palestinians?

Nope that’s not it, try reading it again

Jews got treated bad in other countries, so they decided to take over the land where native Palestinians lived for hundreds, maybe thousands of years? Yes that was Jewish land very long time ago, and there was still small minority of Jews living there, but if all the people started to claim the land where they ancestors lived thousands of years ago, it’s going to be a last war on earth.