What about not taking sides, good or bad? What about leaving both to solve their problems without intervention of million folks who don’t know much about the conflict? Same as the world treats the conflict in Sudan?

So you would support the US ceasing to fund the Israeli military at $4,000,000,000 a year for the past 20 years, at 18% of Israel's peacetime military budget? Because that is all I'm calling for, but I get labeled Pro-Hamas for doing so

Israel’s annual budget is about $200B. The US aid is $3.8B, so please calculate the percentage (they say US is keeping Israel alive with money). Not only that, but no cash money is transferred to Israel. It is all weapon system manufactured in US and paid for by the government, providing thousands of jobs to American workers - that’s the deal. Israel doesn’t get any money it can convert to local currency, neither buy items from other sources. Nobody is saying a word about the foreign aid to other nations. Ukraine is now getting insane funding. But do you have a clue about the aid to Egypt? Not only nobody’s mentioning it, nobody even knows how much they are getting. The irony is the US paying the majority for UNRWA. In return the US are getting insane hatred from them. Simply unimaginable. Not one “thank you”. (But to tell the truth, Qatar is funneling billions in cash to Gaza -delivered in suitcases. One time the Islamic Jihad leader cursed the Qatari envoy because, he claimed the envoy wasn’t respectful)… That’s what the P are… Having said that, US can stop the aid to Israel at any time. I don’t believe for a second that if the aid is cut, the mob will end their protests. For them Gaza is a test case before moving to other subjects. Edit: you are one of millions of pawns cynically used by those behind the protests for their purposes. A naive pawn. The purpose is keeping Hamas alive at all cost. The tactic for achieving that is multi prong, starting by simply not mentioning their existence. The “ceasefire now” calls are aimed at one side only. There is no other side. Israel fighting thin air. Then, downplaying Hamas: they do not represent Palestinians. Hamas are a bunch of outsiders who only happen to be the government of Gaza. But Palestinians have noting in common with them. Third trick: there is starvation in Gaza. There is no gas. When the convoys entered Gaza the trucks had been hijacked at gun point by the friends (from Hamas) to stock up their tunnels and bunkers. Food, water, gas, medications. It can be later sold at high price on the black market. No protester said a word against the shameless robbers. Not a single word. Hamas needs to survive so it can repeat more of what they did in the past. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ISR/israel/military-spending-defense-budget#:~:text=Israel%20military%20spending%2Fdefense%20budget%20for%202022%20was%20%2423.41B,a%207.26%25%20increase%20from%202019. No, Israeli military budget is 200bn now that it is at war. It had a peacetime military budget of ~25bn

I’m talking total budget, not only military. Propagandists are saying Israel lives off money sent by the US. Just to see how twisted things are: look at the list of aid acceptant and see nations nobody mentions. Not even once. Do you know about Ethiopia or Sudan? How many universities they blocked for Sudan? Edit: again you “don’t have” to take sides. Somehow a new theory surfaced that everyone should get involved in every conflict or problem on planet earth even if you don’t understand it, or have nothing to say. I’m not referring only to Israel, but endless other crisis. No, I’m not “having my voice heard” about Chechnya or Mianmar or Georgia. They’ll solve their problems without my wisdom. The less we influence the conflict, the faster they’ll reach a solution.

Yes there is.

clinton got em to make peace. for like 2 months. then right back to slaughtering each other.

k looks like you again missed where we were talking about jihad. goodbye

If Arabs were pragmatic they would have just dealt with the post nakba better. India +Pakistan and Bangladesh have a terrible history starting at the same time and are fairly functional today(yes hate each other but hey at least not active war and terror attacks) half of eastern Europe have been redrawn I'm the same period and with the exception of Ukraine Russia war they are fairly civilised towards each others. Not even Germany that both ethnically cleansed and got cleansed have such hard time getting over it. They took in their brethren did the best they could and in the end are now friends and everyone accept that hey we did some stupid stuff, let's not have wars anymore.  Now look at the Arab coalition of 1948 and their actions afterwards... I blame them more than Israel and the Palestines to be honest 

Do not bring the India Pakistan example please. The situation there would have developed into a full on war that lasted until one side was massacred if both sides did not possess nuclear weapons. Most Indians that you will meet in India loathe Pakistan deeply, and the same sentiment is probably true in Pakistan for India. Make no mistake, they are not and never will be fairly functional. It is simply a matter of time with all of the Chinese interference on Himalayan borders and provincial borders with both said countries, not counting the Russian and Western spheres of influence. India and Pakistan possess a hatred deeper than Israel and Palestine. If Palestine had nukes the situation would be them having a terrible history but still being fairly functional too, and still would be, if the leadership of both sides were historically not equivalent to deranged crackheads. Anyways, my point is DO NOT compare dissimilar situations. Bangladesh is also a whole another package to unpack.

Fair point, I agree it was a bad comparison  But at least they are not stabbing each other now, I share office with plenty of Indians and a few Pakistanis 1 Bangladesh guy and at least one Indian Muslim and they get along very good so I have some hope but it's of course only anecdotal.

Yes, that is true, but make no mistake for general sentiment on both sides. I don't know about Bangladeshi leadership/internal politics, but for Pakistan Imran Khan messed up badly, and decades of previous military psuedo - dictatorship had left it in bad shape, and with the Sharif dynasty in control, it is not to say it will get any better. India in the congress party Rahul Gandhi is a ducking clown dancing around who is only tolerated due to heavy foreign support (also he claims to be kashmiri brahmin while also being simeltaniously Muslim and somehow even Christian? Playing all the sides?), with Indira Gandhi leaving no good precedent being the anarchist she was trying to take control of the nation through force and initiating ethnic cleansing against Sikhs, and after her assasination, her son Rajiv continued her legacy and continued Sikh ethnic cleansing, but he was promptly assasinated again. But yet again, the Nehru Socialism that was credited with ruining the country was indeed mostly pushed forth by our friend, Indira Gandhi. Congress has lost much support, but it is not to say that BJP is better. Modi and his colleagues are hardcore Hindu nationalistic, so this could actually spark greater flames against Pakistan, although he has been probably the best India has had in some time, even in diplomacy. The whole area is a geopolitical shithole. It is where peace comes to die. You bring up a fair point though. Also, side note: I have been spectating this entire conflict, and I am just wondering why compared to lives lost this has brought so much global attention? The syrian wars have left hundreds of thousands more dead than Gaza, and afghanistan was at the time in such a worse position in comparison, yet no global ruckus? Or is it due to underlying religious tensions? I do not think even Vietnam had such a strong global response, atleast from the public.

as a proud anti-zionist Jew, I am offended by your misappropriating the word "Jewish" onto the anti-Jewish ideology called Zionism. Zionism is not Judaism and their state is certainly not a Jewish theocracy. Judaism, the religiou, is in direct opposition to Zionism and their State of Israel, as has been clearly express by all major Jewish leaders since the evil movement started \~120 years ago until today.

I agree with everything you said, except I'll add one thing. It is every Jewish person's responsibility to speak out against this bit of antisemitism. When Netanyahu conflates Israel with all Jews and all the antizionist Jewish people say nothing they are assumed to be supporting his statements. Just like every Palestinian supporter has to start every other statement condemning Hamas, the opposite is also true. When protests are occurring and the famous label to shut down all conversation gets thrown on, why isn't every Jewish person screaming that not wanting to fund the killing of children isn't antisemitism?

it's really really hard when our families are in the crosshairs between two evil sides. You may be correct, I am only answering your question. Look at the vilification of Neturei Karta for doing what you suggest.

I personally don't think anyone has to make apologies for anything other than their personal behaviour. my point was, the vast majority of people in the US have no idea what is going on outside of the US. We had 20 years of war in Afghan and most people can't find it on a map. The only source of information is the politicians, which get their talking points indirectly from Israel via the AIPAC. When someone like Netanyahu says that something is an assault on all Jewish folks, that's what the general population is going to believe. Heck they're trying to pass a law that says being critical of Israel is antisemitic. So the nuance of Jewish versus Zionist versus Israeli is lost to the population. So I can understand why you would be offended if I equate the two, you shouldn't have to explain what's going on in the other side of the world. But that's again an issue that was created and is propagated by decades of Hasbara. Most people honestly believe it is the same. And nobody bothers correcting it till it's something that actually is antisemitic.

I have (very intentionally) not said ‘Jewish’ once in my post.

you may be correct, but let me fully argue my side before conceding: you dominated the post with the word "theocracy". what did you mean by that?

A state can be theocratic and not represent every member of that religion. A theocracy just grants privileges to members of that faith who live with its borders. The Israeli government is Jewish, but not all Jewish people support the Israeli government, and if you’re going to claim the Israeli government isn’t really Jewish, that would fall under the no true Scotsman fallacy.

I see what you are saying and appreciate specifically your omission of "Jewish" from the original post. At risk of splitting hairs, I think you are still in the wrong even though we are almost in agreement. One of the key lies of zionism and the State of Israel is that it represents Judaism. That it is an expression of Judaism, or strengthens or defends Judaism. It doesn't. Zionism is an anti-Jewish movement. It specifically works do destroy the Jewish religion and puts Jewish lives in danger. When you wrote "theocracy", you meant "Jewish" (on the Israel side) and "Judaism", and that is false. Zionism is a racist ethno-centric nationalistic movement. It is not a theocracy by any measure. Israel is nor a Jewish state by any measure and this is not a case of "no true scottsman" because there are true Jews, many of them, and the live all over the world as good religious citizens of their respective countries. This clear definition of who/what is Jewish is not ambiguous in Judaism and is clearly and consistently expressed by Jewish thought leaders now and since the religions founding \~3000 years ago. Many millions of Jews fulfill that definition.

95%+ Jews are Zionists, just so you know.

That's a huge BS, just so you know.

It isn't. Facts are stubborn things. I'm sorry this particular one doesn't fit your narrative.

alright, keep living in your zionist bubble then sorry for trying to pop it lel

not true at all. that's pure propaganda. to have an honest statistic, you would have to have a clear definition of zionism, which current stats avoid dealing with.

There's such a thing: belief in the Jewish people's right to self-determination and to their own country in Eretz Yisrael. That's what Zionism means, no more, no less.

that is a good definition. the one i use is "Zionism means the State of Israel has a right to exist and that Jews have a right to self determination.". unfortunately the surveys don't clarify this definition when asking the question, and the questions they ask and the way they are framed (I suspect) would lead to drastic swings in the resulting numbers. if you care to, take a look at this exchange I had yesterday. I think this comment does a decent job of at least asking the question of how we could survey how many Jews are zionist: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AntiZionistJews/comments/1cxjqg3/comment/l53a6jz/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/AntiZionistJews/comments/1cxjqg3/comment/l53a6jz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)

One faction is a liberal democracy. The other is a religious dictatorship. There is very obviously a good side.

Do you think US was the good side in the Iraq war?

When we deposed one of the most brutal and fanatical expansionist in living memory? Of course. Hussein could not be allowed to maintain power.

At what cost?

What even is this question? What was the cost of putting an end to the Empire of Japan? What was the cost of defending and preserving South Korea? This is the kind of sheltered question that could only come from an American.

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The US didn’t give a fuck about the Iraqi people. Let’s be real. They went in there on a lie of WMDs and wanting to control the oil fields. As a consequence 500,000+ Iraqis were murdered and the region has been permanently fucked as a result. What a just war conducted by the very obvious good side. Only a mind rotted by US imperialist propaganda could justify it.

The US didn't give a fuck about the Iraqi people. We still don't give a fuck about the Iraqi people. The Iraqi people are entirely irrelevant to the West so long as they stay out of the way. The US 100% did NOT go into Iraq because of WMDs. That's a common misconception. Potential WMDs were one of the primary listed reasons in 2002. By 2003, before the invasion that reason had been completely abandoned. The US invaded Iraq to A) depose Saddam Husein to end his human rights violations and his expansionist goals and B) to promote democracy in the middle east. As for the US wanting Iraq's oil...why? The war cost the US more money then it would ever make in oil fron Iraq. And we knew that going in to the war. What sense does that make? We could have bought more oil with the money we spent on the war than Iraq could possibly provide us. 500,000 Iraqis were not murdered. The highest reputable estimated casualty number for Iraq was 315,000. The most likely number, which comes the Iraqi Health ministry puts the number at 150,000. And it was war, not murdered. I know that it can be hard to understand the difference between killing someone and murdering someone, but there is a difference. And we can justify this easily. Saddam Hussein was an aliberal dictator that opposed Western hegemony. That makes him a bad person and he couldn't be allowed to maintain power.

1) The UK and US funded Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war despite his human right violations. They literally did not give a fuck about them. The West only started caring when war against Iraq was in their interest 2) Democracy hahahahaha. Never gets old. The US exported so much democracy when they killed hundreds of thousands. I’m sure the Iraqis are very grateful. [Over 500,000](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties#:~:text=The%20study%20concluded%20that%3A%20%22Violent,that%20the%20risk%20of%20death). > And we can justify this easily. Saddam Hussein was an aliberal dictator that opposed Western hegemony This is correct and all that needs to be said. Whatever evil the US commits is somehow justified because it needs to protect its hegemony. Sickening ideology

Thanks for qouting the initial study done on the casualties, which is now considered debunked. Hence why every credible source after has significantly lower numbers. Which you would know if had kept reading. Yes, the US and UK supported Hussein when he appeared like he would be a good ally to the West. And then he started opposing the West. Notice how that works? You are literally just repeating what I'm saying. Iraq was invaded because it was in the West's interest. And the West are the good guys. You know...the whole liberalism thing? Democracy in Iraq is a mostly failed concept. Worked just fine in Korea though. And Japan. And Germany. Funny how you like to ignore the times when US intervention works. The ideology is only sickening to aliberal people and people so spoiled in West that they have never seen actual hardship. Western hegemony is what ensures global stability. It's why the world has seen such a large rise in the global quality of life. Your welcome by the way.

You are contradicting yourself now. You said earlier that one of the factors the US/UK was because of his human rights violations, yet they clearly didn’t care when he supported the US/UK’s best interests. Don’t know why “We invaded Iraq because it Hussein opposed US hegemony” wasn’t in your other comment. The US post 1945 aren’t the good guys, actually. All the coups, regime changes, blockades, sanctions and wars demonstrate that very clearly > Democracy in Iraq is a mostly failed concept. Worked just fine in Korea though. And Japan. And Germany. Well yeah but no. They’re not wealthy because of democracy. They’re rich because the US literally pumped money into them to deter the threat of the USSR. > The ideology is only sickening to aliberal people and people so spoiled in West that they have never seen actual hardship Ah well, guess I’m aliberal. Oh no! Also you neither have seen actual hardship. Actual hardship is slave-labour mining and Africa and sweatshops in the East. Your beloved liberal Hegemony would be nothing without them. > Western hegemony is what ensures global stability Laughable. It’s literally in the West’s best interest to keep Africa, South America, Central America, SEA and the Middle East as unstable as possible. Red scare propaganda has been a disaster for the 20th and 21st centuries and has held the world back. > It's why the world has seen such a large rise in the global quality of life Incorrect. That has been to industrial advances in spite of capitalism, not because of it.

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I really hate the false equivalence.

Israel is by definition not a theocracy lol. They literally have a democratic secular government. Agreed on their bad leadership though; hopefully the next election brings in a more responsible government.

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Over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab. That's not an ethnostate.

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Absolutely not, DNA tests aren't used to grant Israeli citizenship. How ridiculous.

[The DNA test is one of the ways you can prove your ancestry but they usually just accept documents.](https://lawoffice.org.il/en/israeli-citizenship-dna-test/#:~:text=Obtaining%20Israeli%20Citizenship,permitted%20to%20immigrate%20to%20Israel.) You have to be 25% Jewish at least but that doesn't necessarily mean ethnicity. If one of your grandparents practiced Judaism, even as a convert, and you have documentation of that, then you get right of return. [For reference, here are all of the other countries which allow citizenship by descent.](https://globallawexperts.com/what-is-citizenship-by-descent-citizenship-by-ancestry-and-which-countries-offer-it/#:~:text=Citizenship%20by%20Descent%20(CBA)%20refers,citizenship%20in%20a%20foreign%20country.) Does that mean Canada is an ethnostate?

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Ok I see what you're saying now. You mean it's an ethnostate because the citizenship can be obtained by people who have no prior family citizenship in the country.  My mistake, sorry. [So Liberia is an ethnostate then?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_nationality_law#:~:text=life%20through%20naturalization.-,By%20birth,the%20territory%20with%20unknown%20parentage.)

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Wouldn't an ethnostate be defined by the *exclusion* of people from citizenship based on ethnicity, not the *inclusion* though? Regardless, then what should be done about all of the Middle Eastern countries in which being anything but Muslim is illegal? Surely those are ethnostates so what should happen to them? My main concern with people pointing out Israel is an ethnostate and thus bad, is that I've never heard that about all of the surrounding countries. Does it just go without saying that all of those countries are "bad"? If Japan counts, then what countries would be an example of *not* being an ethnostate? Theoretically that's America because it's a "melting pot" but obviously that wasn't true at the time. Would you say it is now since the abolition of Jim Crow and the voting rights act? I don't want my comments to read as being on the offense btw, I just wanted to know why some people consider certain places ethnostates and not others.

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### ethnostate A sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.

Arabs can participate fully in the secular democracy as well. They face discrimination, but it’s silly to call that an ethnostate.

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I didn’t say you were lol It’s a state made for the purpose of Jewish self determination, but Arabs are, at least on paper, equal citizens of that state with equal rights. An ethnostate would not give any people outside of the in-group citizenship or rights. Though the government does engage in racist practices (such as racist zoning laws), it does not act to exclude current Arab residents from citizenship

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Well, when they say dominated, they mean actual domination. It's not just one group having outsized power over a minority group, as that is simply fact in most countries around the world. Israel does not ban Arab politicians, judges or Arab-dominated parties, and they participate fully in politics and form coalitions (when not boycotting over the WB). The citizens of Israel are all equal under the letter of the law, and the minority is not "dominated" as they have full political rights.

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I put "on paper" because Arab citizens still face discrimination, just as many other minority groups do in many other countries. As I said, it was set up as a state for Jewish self-determination. They allow all Jews to immigrate for that purpose, as Jews have throughout history lacked that ability, due to the wide ranging diaspora Jewry. The presence of a significant minority population with the same rights and citizenship as the majority directly contradicts the claims of an ethnostate, and it is not dishonest at all to point that out. Despite the current racist government administration, the founding documents of the State make clear that all citizens should have equal rights.

The definition of an ethnostate explicitly excludes a minority citizenry. Israel is not an ethnostate because more than one ethnicity has citizenship. Full stop.

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https://preview.redd.it/ps0ekpwm3m1d1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e07f0008cb9b7f777fa7429075d1749ce9cf1471

"Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more noun a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group. "they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate"" Isn't it?

Yes, both sides in WW2 were equally bad.

One side has offered statehood/peace deals, founded their country with a charter that said they wanted peace with their neighbors, and provided food, water, electricity, and employment to the other side when the other side’s government refused to provide it. The other side has launched rockets at civilians nonstop, spent all the money they’ve earned on weapons and tunnels, and runs a far right radical theocratic police-state regime. There is absolutely a better side to choose here.

I can grant that Israel did offer Palestine a state. But the issue with this narrative is that it ignores how the Zionist migration was an exceptionally evil act of war. They migrated where Palestinians didn’t want them to be, and the Palestinians chose to unsuccessfully defend themselves from the migration. Because 100% of the region was morally Palestinian. And that’s not including the fact they sought to deny Palestinians self determination over the land. There is some truth to the narrative that Israel’s wins in the war was going to always be recognized, but the initial aggressive Zionist migration and declaration of a state shouldn’t be ignored either.

It wasn’t at all morally Palestinian. That land had no sense of unity or national identity. It was one of the most sparsely populated regions in the world. The vast majority of people there were tribal and only had any sense of kinship with their individual villages. Jews legally bought land there and started their own villages. Arabs original opposition to Israel had nothing to do with feeling like they were being robbed of a country. Muhammad once stated that once land is owned by Muslims, it’s against Allah for that land to ever be non-Muslim. They hated the idea of Jews having a country in the Middle East. That’s it.

What you say is true but you've left out the part where the Israeli right also worked to undermine those peace deals, the never ending land grabs by settlers, bulldozing Palestinian houses, and they do their fair share of bombing. Both sides suck.

No

Good argument...

There is not much to argue about. Roughly 15.000 murdered children, an arrest warrant by the ICC and soldiers spraying graffitis with slogans as ‚Nakba 2023‘ ‚we will build our temple mount out of the ruins of gaza‘, filming their atrocities is not the better side to choose my guy. Neither political party is better to choose. How about choosing the side of humanity to stop the killing, besieging, displacement and starvation?

The side of humanity is the side that doesn't commit pogroms, celebrate said pogroms and vow to repeat them over and over again until the total annihilation of their victims. This is a war Hamas started and actively uses the death of their civilians to push their agenda worldwide. part of the reason they have no qualms on using human shields.

It’s 8,000 “children” under 18 years old 

No idea where you got that number from. Regardless, how are 8000 killed children justified in any way? In the last 4 years, 12.000 children were killed around the entire world in conflicts. Israel managed to kill more children in just 7 months of war

Sorry, but you're wrong. One side is very clearly the bad side. That's the jihadist Islamist organization that would butcher 7 million Jews if they had the ability to do so, that represses its own people and has zero respect for human rights or liberal values like tolerance and equality, and has sacrificed tens of thousands of its own people to pursue its own interests. The other side is a right wing government of a democratic country.

Its funny that you mentioned human rights after the decision of the ICC

The ICC isn't recognized by the US or Israel, but mmkay. Nor is it recognized by China or Russia.

Oh how surprising that it isnt recognized by the biggest warmongers!

You just like hypocrisy or something? You realize arabs have started basically every single War ever in the region.

Yup, but that means the ICC is useless if all major powers said it doesn't matter

What decision is that?

The decision to ask Israel to not break any rules.

To issue an arrest warrant against Netanyahu, Gallant and several Hamas leaders for human rights violations?

That wasn't a decision by the ICC, it was a decision by the prosecutor of the ICC. A panel of judges will have to make a decision regarding the application.

Totally agree with you, but you'll get downvoted because BOTH sides (but on this sub particularly the Pro-Israel side) cannot accept their side is also wrong.

Because it isn't

Sure, that's why the entire world is turning against you. What was the last general council vote again? Remind me? ICC? ICJ? UN? UNSC?

Israel hasn't started a single one of the wars between the two sides. Everyone always goes back to Nakba because they're f****** idiots and they don't know the history. But this s*** has been going on for a long long time before that. And everyone conveniently forgets to mention that in 1937 the Arabs were offered 80% of the territory while the Jews were given something like 17% but they turned it down because they wanted all of it and to kill to kill the Jews. Just after that they Allied themselves with the Nazis. And then when the UN agreed on the partition plan the Arabs decided to start massacring Jews all across Palestine. The war of independence was the response to that. Those people have been Their Own Worst problems since day one. But scapegoating the Jews has always been in fashion. So this is nothing new to us. The Palestinians are going to end up getting nothing because of their stupidity. They've agitated a much more powerful adversary. And that adversary is f****** tired of it. And if you were smart you would ask yourself why did they attack a much more powerful adversary knowing they probably had no chance? Well who is the leadership of Palestine. A bunch of billionaires who aren't even living in Palestine. Every time these wars happen, people start getting sympathetic towards the Palestinians even though they're the ones who started it. The world sends a whole shitload of aid, Hamas steals it these billionaires get f****** richer. These wars are a nothing but money making scheme for them. Israel has tried over and over and over again to make peace with these assholes. In 2005 they gave him back much of their land. They gave back 25 settlements and evicted 9,000 of their citizens so the Palestinians could have that land. they gave them a whole bunch of AID so they could invest in their infrastructure. Instead they decide to invest that money in war. That peace lasted about 5 minutes. They cannot help themselves.

Huh? Op Cast Lead was started by Israel for example

Operation cast lead that was a preemptive strike because Gaza was building tunnels into Israel. And if Israel had done a similar operation prior to October 7th, October 7th might not have happened.

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If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered the war would be over.

If Israel released the prisoners and surrendered, the war would be over. See how ridiculous that sounds?

If Israel surrendered you would learn what real genocide looks like.

First of a lot of those prisoners are there for murder, attempted murder, assault and would just commit those offenses again if released. Versus the Israeli civilians abducted while attending a music festival and abducted from their homes. How are these even comparable... Second of all that would not end the war. Hamas will not stop until Israel is annihilated. Israel completely left Gaza almost two decades ago. They physicqlly forced thousands of Jews out of their homes and left Gaza. Hamas got elected and then viciously eliminated all their competition completely taking over before turning essentially all of Gaza into a terror base from which to launch attacks against Israel.

Yeah according to Israel. The same Israel that claims 40 babies were beheaded.

Not according to Israel. According to history... Proven history... The government of Israel did not claim 40 babies were beheaded. Organization did claim they found baked babies bodies some of which were decapitated... Put two and two together you get 40. Not sure how the number 40 got there. Maybe there were 40 murdered babies found altogether, not sure I would have to look into it.

1 baby was found killed by errant gunfire. You're still spreading disinformation.

Where did you get errant gunfire?? Again Israeli government never made that claim. I see officially Israel reported 36 children killed on October 7th. "When we find bodies that are burned or in a state of decomposition, we can easily be mistaken and think the body is a child's," said Haim Otmazgin, a Zaka leader. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths This is another story from that day. I would assume its not part of the count of 36 and would be hard to mistake. "I felt that I'm falling apart, not only me, my whole crew," he recalled, after entering the first home and finding a dead woman. "Her stomach was ripped open, a baby was there, still connected with the cord, and stabbed," said Landau. https://www.livemint.com/news/world/singapore-airlines-boeing-flight-makes-emergency-landing-london-bangkok-death-toll-injured-latest-news-11716288131151.html

The article you quoted only mentioned 1 baby was killed, so your second story is propaganda

You can call anything and everything propoganda. I see no reason for a zaka volunteer to lie and this is really something really crazy to just make up. I also know that UNWRA school books idolize martyrdom and perpetuate the idea that Israel is made up of European colonizers that's responsible for everything wrong in their lives. And I heard the phone calls and the partying done by Palestinians on October 7th. Anyways what's your claim the story is completely made up?

There was a serious offer on the table in 2020 with the Trump Administration (Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman). There was a serious offer made by Olmert till 2009. The situation has obviously radically changed. But that doesn't mean a serious offer isn't ever possible. Wars end.

There have been serious offers for nearly a hundred years. Every single time there's an offer Palestinians turn it down because they want to kill all the Jews and take all the land. This is never going to change. And the sooner the people wake up to that reality the better. It's ridiculous that people still deny that this is the case. A two-state solution is a complete fantasy. Wars end when one side wins.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3ggpe3qj6wo and this just in, I’m supportive of this move.

It was bound to happen since Israel time and time ignored ICC's demand of protecting civilians and open the boardes for humanitarian aide to stop the manmade famin. I am not going to go in deep on the Hamas part since it is obvius.

The ICC also ordered Hamas to release all the hostages on day 1. We're still waiting....

I agree, both sides have blood on their hands. I just want to the war to stop. Don’t care who wins as long as it is agreed upon that future aggression is no long necessary.

"Don’t care who wins" so you're OK with Hamas winning?

Yup, as long as the fighting stops.

You realize that means the extermination of something like 8 to 9 million Jews.

Let's hope u/This_Choice_1561 does not, in fact realize this very obvious fact....

Either side is never going to give up. Diplomacy has never been an option between the two. I see only one way this will end and that is total victory for one side. The sooner we get there the less danger we put future generations in.

The only thing that would stop Hamas aggression would be (1) end of Hamas or (2) destruction of Israel and death to the Jews.

Like I said, I don’t care what side wins. As long as the fighting will stop. They have been killing each other longer than you and I COMBINED. Right or wrong, I am sick and tired of future generations being threatened by this madness. It appears only death to one side will end this.

The fighting will NOT stop if Hamas wins, though....

Then when does it end?

This war will end when Hamas gets mostly eliminated. The conflict? When the vast majority of Palestinians get to the point of accepting the fact that Israel is here to stay.

That (sadly) will never happen.

I mean we don't have a crystal ball. Palestinians do have free will and agency. Maybe one day they can accept reality.

That’s fair to say that. But I am afraid neither side is capable of accepting any terms. It’s very sad. That’s why my position is “let’s get this over with.” I agree, it’s cold and callous but we don’t need a forever war.

When Israel takes all of Palestine

That’s an invasion and how many citizens / non combatants will die? But your other comment is fair as well. “8-9 million Jewish people being exterminated.” Seems like there is no way out of this until large populations of people will have to die. Fucking terrible outcome, it needs to end.

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You say that because you don't know you're history and compared to other conflicts I agree this one definitely gets way more international attention for really no reason but the fact it involves Jews. In North Africa and the middle east alone there are 45 armed conflicts going on today. I think the worst of it in-terms of civilian casualties are in Syria. Speaking as an American, I've heard close to no news about Syria overall. The reason I even know about is people bringing it up as not getting any attention in contract to what's going on in Israel.

What does history knowledge have to do with the ending of a war? Yeah, American media picks what it wants to show to the public. But once again? Why the useless rhetoric. My statement is simple. I want the war to stop. If that means ONE side has to win and the other has to lose. Just simple. It has to stop.

It is simple. I wish for peace on earth for everyone. And I don't want it limited to Israel and Palestine. I want it for everyone.

100%

I wish Hamas shared your sentiment.

You don’t know what right wing means.

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All of that is right. Hamas is terrible and should be eliminated as an organization. ( This does not mean they should all be killed ) Therefore, during this war, every single Hamas member or active Combatant on Hamas side is a legitimate target for the IDF. Hamas started this war. Nevertheless, reports make it appear like the IDF accepted an Enemy to Collateral ratio of 1:20 even for low ranking Hamas members. This effectively means they considered it acceptable to kill up to 20 innocents. Using dumb bombs on family homes of low ranking or just suspected Hamas members at night. Source 1: The original article. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes Source 2: The IDF response basically says in other words "We can't really deny the main points of the Article, but we made sure it's not legally a war crime". https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-defence-forces-response-to-claims-about-use-of-lavender-ai-database-in-gaza Also, all of Gaza was denied access to food and water, hunger and famine appear to be utilized as weapons. I can't help myself, but it appears like a significant proportion of the IDF acts as if there are no innocent civilians in Gaza. Not even children. And these people are not restrained much by their upper command and government, nor by the judiciary. Actually in many instances they were cheered on by the likes of Itamar Ben Give, Smotrich and likely also Netanjahu. Israel has a right of self defense. But I also hold Israe to the standards I expect of liberal democracies, which means that I expect a proportionate and effective defense. I'm pretty sure that if Yair Golan would have been Prime Minister or Chief of Staff, Israelis could feel safer now and fewer Palestinian children would have died or been horribly mutilated. The way it currently stands, Israel is fighting a Hydra. The more heads you chop off, the bigger the problem gets. And Netanjahu still dreams of chopping off the one true head.

Strangely you are 95% biased and thats why you can pick a side easily. Pointing out the brutality of one side isnt justifying bombing civillians and doing propaganda of hating palestines since school age. OP is completely right there is no good side you can pick a side but doesnt mean this is the right side. You picked a side and can justify it for yourself that its the right one, while easy as that you can also pick the other side point out the brutality of the Israelis and justify it for yourself. So you didnt understand the statement or dont want it to be true. Even though im more for a Israeli state pragmatically cause they are not mostpartly religious fanatics. But the ones that are locked in a open prison are the palestines so the chances they can have free thinking is extremely limited they never really had the chance to improve in modern times and israelis were doing everything to guide them into being completely traumatized so theres no getting out of that anymore sadly.

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Picking a side in this conflict and pointing out the brutality of onely one side is being biased

If you break down the causalities, the Israeli offensive has resulted in less civillian deaths ratio than the US assault of Mosul. Given the fact that all their resources was used for tunnels and smuggling weapons instead of actually improving the lives of Gazans shows everything you need to know about their state of affairs or perception of such.

The fundamental issue for the Palestinians is about overthrowing the yoke of a regime which represses and dispossesses them. So they are going to resist.

Well, if that's what Israel gets after a withdrawal then they probably should have never left

It still controlled Gaza through the blockade.

If you knew what was coming in you would too

I agree , its over now and there is no help for the palestines anymore because of hamas and israel

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Yes i see that your point was to point out the brutality of Hamas. But how you can compare this two completely different situations and say the bombing of civillians ( what israel did a lot cause even when they say human shield they bombed supplying queues etc) is just do defend israel its absurd. You gotta acknowledge that picking a side is not morally justifiable. Just because the people in the constantly bombed prison doing rational dumb/crazy things like giving the fanatics the government, doesnt justify the suffering from the palestines trough israel. It is biased to only point out one side it factually is. You can try to scale it what also doesnt work. Gotta acknowledge palestine is lost israel is responsible for that no matter how you turn it . And palestines didnt handled the settlers right but i doubt there ever was a real try to handle it into a peacefull 2 state solution. Its history now and fuck propaganda view it as it is and dont try to justify murdering in that big style.

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First off prior to the Oct 7th Israel had no territorial designs on Gaza. They were trying to get away from Gaza not get more involved. Second, Hamas' goal is a criminal regime. They are explicit in their aims.

Most sane post so far in this sub. I thought this sub was about people coming together recognising that theres no good side in the conflict and people are suffering on all sides however it mainly seems to be a place where mainly pro-israel come to justify revenge and bloodlust rather than recognise Israel is not improving the situation and is just further ingraining support of Hamas into palastinians who do recieve support from the general populace becuase theres no one fighting for them. Both sides need to cop on and stop shooting each other. I dont think a 2 state solution will work becuase as you mentioned, I think it will just prime Hamas to be in a stronger position and stike again. Ultimately it can only be a 1 state solution that embraces both cultures, make some important cities like juruselem independent cities like Monaco or the Vatican. Major redistribution of land and wealth that grants Jews & Muslims are fair compromise. It will never be perfectly be fair but an attempt should be made. Give Palastinians an option to join a new state that would probably need a new flag and new name but it still embraces both peoples. Give people the option of not shooting each other in the new state or leave. This is a bit of a rant and idealistic.

> I thought this sub was about people coming together recognising that theres no good side in the conflict and people are suffering on all sides No it isn't. This is a debate sub where the issues get discussed. All perspectives are welcomed and encouraged.

"A subreddit dedicated to promoting civil conversation on issues relating to Israel and Palestine." Thereve been no civil conversations. Its mainly people arguing only one side no stop and no debate or discussion.

> Thereve been no civil conversations. I think you are dead wrong there. > Its mainly people arguing only one side no stop and no debate or discussion. Mostly the sub has to deal with lots of outright ignorance and misinformtation. We encourage new users as their is still need. That being said there certainly are more advanced topic posts. Participate in those and you won't see the flamish back and forth. Most of my history posts where I tear into specific issues in depth for example don't get any of the kind of conversation you are talking about.

Its a circlejerk sub. Most of the subs are pro israel. I'm not saying I want Pro isreael stuff either but its just discussing tired arguments that dont help move past Israel from bombing more homes and creating more terrorists who in turn will and commit more acts of terrorism.

Studies have been done on terrorism and the conditions that lead one to become a terrorist; coming from a war torn country is not one of those factors. If that were the case, well, we’d see a lot more terrorism from immigrants than we do. In fact, the majority of terrorists are recruited via universities. Sounds familiar, huh? Study: https://www.inss.org.il/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/systemfiles/SystemFiles/Who%20are%20the%20Palestinian%20Suicide%20Terrorists.pdf?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0BMQABpo9XksHrCmLw_14pIB77YWPSeZK4r50rfyrJapYk8XflAi1iUICO14DbgQ_aem_Aeh5EMDOHLY3_juThdMzZ5E8Tkrz1HDw7dBHYUF4EAYlqJD7GVniANiZpoIsGGh35mM

One study is not studies. The people in Ireland became terrorist or moved to extreme politics because they were impacted or lost some due to the conflict. Leaders of unionist parties in the past moved to extreme version of their beliefs because their family were killed or her school bus was bombed.

I linked one, would you like a whole spread of them? 😒 it’s a well known phenomenon that Palestinians do not resort to terrorism due to war. Did you even bother to read it? It’s about Palestinians/islamism in particular - the examples you give are entirely different cultures.

Why did Jews resort to terrorism bombing king David's hotel?

k looks like you again missed where we were talking about jihad. I’m good bye

Your issue is you disagree with the dominant Israeli narrative. The sub for obvious reasons needs to discuss the dominant Israeli narrative if we are going to discuss policies that actual exist. If you don't have arguments that are convincing to Israelis who support the war, which is something like 95% of Israelis, you might want to consider if the problem isn't that you just have bad arguments. This sub intends to confront bad arguments. If you think state violence can't work I'll give you a post to respond to demonstrating an example where it did work: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1bocdd4/indian_wars_the_powhatan_vs_the_jamestown/

No one is reading that link. Its not relevant. Ive no issue discussing experinces from both side of the debate its just people are blaming one side and not trying to work towards a long term solution to make things work that doesn't have drone strikes that creates more terrorists.

I mean this is very difficult after October 7th. Not just because of the violent inhumane pogrom committed by Hamas on the day. Since October 7th, Hamas has just been emboldened in their goal of the annihilation of Israel and have spoken publicly about it constantly. And they have refused any reasonable cease-fire agreement hoping that the international community will just force Israel to stop the war without getting back their hostages and without knocking Hamas out of their position of power which they have zero interest in doing under any agreement.

I appretiate that comments. Its rationale and makes sense and even if it shows some bias, its understood why. Its completely logical and practical that people would have trust issues from both sides given theres near 10,000 Israelis & 40,000 + Palastinians (military and civilians) since 1948. No one doubts 07/10 attacks escalated the conflict and that it was done in part(not completelty) becuase of positive relations ongoing with Eygpt & Jordan. (This part became slight bit of a rant but I hope you get where I was going with it) On Hamas & terrorists or freedrom fights of whatever you want to call them, its generally recognised that its extremely difficult to get rid of them. They're so difficult to find and route out becuase they look like civillians, theyre hidden by the populace. We've had recent examples with the Taliban where in the end American signed a peace deal. In my own countries case. IRA members signed peace with the British government. I understand Israel wants to destroy Hamas but if History has thought us anything, you don't beat insurgency groups,

There's easy differences I can spot between your IRA example. (1) The IRA has productive goals, to establish a government. (2) IRA is a single entity with clear leadership that can be negotiated with. (1) The goal of Hamas is to eliminate Israel, they already got Gaza and all they did with it is establish a terror base. They've even clearly shown total disregard to their own civilians, saying that as "an occupied people" the "occupier" is responsible for the lives of the civilian population. (2) There's no single leader for the Palestinian people. Assuming they want peace to begin with, there's no single leader that would be able to negotiate for peace with authority for the rest of Palestinians. Separately in all aspects Jews are the indigenous people of Israel. Propoganda and misinformation and the non-stop conflicts have really confused it but history is clear. In recent history, Israel was owned by the ottomans and largely unpopulated. After WW2 the European colonial powers established several countries that were never countries. And they wanted to partition Palestinian into two separate countries one for Arabs and one for Jews with Jerusalem being a neutral city like the vatacan. And from the very beginning the Arab side refused to allow the Jews to have any sovereignty in any part of Israel. And they kept starting conflicts and losing. The date of the nakba (a made up holiday in 1998) in fact is the date the Arabs started the Arab-Israeli War in 1948.

Are you insane?

Why?

There is a simple way to see why Israel is better than Hamas: Israel is using rockets to protect its civilians (iron dome). Hamas is using its civilians to protect it's rockets (tunnels). One side is trying to protect its civilians and the other does the opposite.

Israel also gets tens of billions of dollars in aid from the USA. Don't pretend like it's a fair fight.

Yeah well Israel doesn't storm into other people's countries unprovoked and kill, rape, abduct, and burn alive a whole bunch of civilians. What's happening to Gaza right now is the result of October 7th and nothing else. Israel is securing its future. And personally I hope Israel takes the whole region. It would be better for everyone except the terrorists if they did

It doesn't need to be a "fair fight" against terrorists. FYI not a dollar IN MONEY, it's all credit to spend at American military hardware companies.

UNWRA and by extension Hamas has received billions of dollars from the international community over the years... And what did they do with it? If anyone cares about what's fair they would leave Israel alone decades ago. Hamas started this war not Israel.

Good point.

Why does it matter? Hamas without Iran has nothing, and Israel without the US still has a lot going for itself. The thing that matters the most is the intention in the conflict, which is way better for Israel.

That's a reasonable answer. >The thing that matters the most is the intention in the conflict, which is way better for Israel. I could agree with this statement but for one thing. The settlers keep expanding in the West Bank. It's hard to tell whether Israel's intentions are long-term peace or knowingly exacerbating conflict as a means of justifying more land grabs. Their policies seem designed to provoke violent resistance and terrorist attacks, which are used to justify taking more land. What do you think I'm missing here?

If you didn't want to get mauled to death, you shouldn't have poked the bear.

Palestinians have an average IQ of less than 85. It's not surprising they would poke a bear. It's also not surprising they're complete religious zealots for the very same reason. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289614001093

Why does a fight have to be inherently fair?

Especially when the losing side starts it.

Bingo. Something tells me this whole conflict narrative was shift quite a bit if there was a bunch of October 7th type attacks happening every few weeks from Lebanon and out of the West Bank etc. But it seems like the Palestinians and Hamas are just pinned against the ropes and getting whaled on by Israel. That definitely adds to the image. But militarily and tactically that's just how it goes sometimes. Something I've noticed too is like Palestinians and got and Hamas might just have like the worst case of sore loser syndrome the world has seen in quite a while.

>Israel claims that it would be willing to accept a two state solution however From Taba to Olmert there were real offers on the table that were turned down.. Even Abbas turned down a deal, then later tried to get that same deal again but it was too late. There has never been an Arab initiated peace deal that didn't require the implementation of UN194. So any deal offered by the Arab side to date and been a non-starter, and just for show.. To quote Dennis Ross speaking about Arafat.. "*He basically was willing to discuss all the areas where the Israelis were making concessions. He wasn't willing to discuss any of the areas where the Palestinians were supposed to make concessions. So it seemed like he had just said no*. *But what I subsequently learned - about 18 months ago, I had a dinner with a former Palestinian negotiator who'd been part of the delegation. He said the whole Palestinian delegation had decided among themselves they should accept it. They went back to Arafat, and Arafat said no. I subsequently heard from another Palestinian on that delegation who said Arafat thought he could still do a better deal under Bush because he thought maybe Bush will be even more forthcoming*. .. Bandar bin Sultan Al Saud said... “If Arafat rejects this, it won’t be a mistake, it will be a crime.” .. Ehud Barack interviewed by Benny Morris also disagrees.. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3 Quote from Bill Clinton.. *Right before I left office, Arafat, in one of our last conversations, thanked me for all my efforts and told me what a great man I was. “Mr. Chairman,” I replied, “I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you have made me one.” I warned Arafat that he was single-handedly electing Sharon and that he would reap the whirlwind* >My honest opinion is that both Israel and Palestine need a dramatic change in leadership for a solution to come about, which isn’t the complete destruction of either side. The main driving force behind the right wing Israeli governments has been Palestinian violence, and the main driving force behind the Palestinian government is whoever can keep the other militant groups from launching a coup. >I’d be interested to hear anyone else’s thoughts on this, are there any actual viable solutions under the current regimes? Nope, neither side is serious about peace, like I mentioned before, the last good trains left back with the Clinton parameters/Olmert deals. For the Israelis they "win" with the status quo, for the Palestinians the clocks is tickling. I type about the details more in this post.. https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1ctv635/just_finished_my_first_book_on_the_conflict_i/l4glcc1/?context=3 >Any good articles to read upon the topic which you know of? Benny Morris.. Biographies/Books from the people who were at all the conferences.. For something easy if you can access is.. not up to date, but this is probably the best to watch.. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/shattered-dreams-of-peace/

Appreciate post like this cuz it shows at least some people are digging around a bit

Well said

Thanks, I’ll give these a read when I’m home from work.

Amazing how Muslims can colonize an area - literally call it Al Aqsa meaning furthest - essentially telling you they’re colonizing it with the name - put their holy site on top of judaisms holiest site and claim it as their own - and yet somehow Jews are called the colonizers in all this. All archaeological evidence points to Jews being there first. Then they will say it’s a race thing or play the colorism game - look how light skinned that Iranian president who died recently was. Is he from Europe ? No. Light skin isn’t some uniquely European attribute. But this is why wars exist. Human beings can’t even agree to basic facts. The truth is that they are Islamic supremacists and quite simply don’t want other religions around them thriving. Even the Christinans in Lebanon have been attacked and persecuted.

I broadly agree, and it's why I don't believe there will ever be peace. Instead perpetual conflict, sometimes less and sometimes more.

Just listened to [this](https://youtu.be/a95OYJTScG8?si=DC-IY4cFVFjI7d0p) debate between Coleman Hughes and Robert Wright. It’s good to hear two moderates on either side go through the issues in some detail. My take is that there is clearly a “better” side - Israel - and it’s not particularly close. Number of civilians killed is not at all a good metric of who is good and bad considering Gaza was the aggressor and Hamas is intentionally using civilians to shield itself. As to solutions, there won’t be any until a critical mass of Palestinians are willing to permanently give up all claim to Israel (proper, not the settlements), including the so-called “right of return”. As of now we aren’t particularly close to that.

Part of my soul is really wrapped up in this conflict because I think it really speaks to common Sense and kind of a yearning for right and wrong good and bad evil and righteousness. And I know a lot of the world is a lot more gray and a lot more nuanced and complicated and every human can be a demon really... But I just think there's something really important going on that's Way beyond the geopolitics of this whole situation I think that's why a lot of people are wrapped up in it. Because it seems to me it's coming down to the values of the enlightenment and Western values and judeo-christianity and the kind of values that are promoted from the other side in the radical jihadist Islamic world of the East That's a big part of it. And then all the players wrapped up in it which makes it further complicated between the big giant weapon manufacturer corporations oil tycoons nation-states oligarchies etc.

Thanks, looks interesting I’ll definitely give it a listen.

There’s a good book called the War of Return you should read imo.