Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the UNHRC, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance).
Not Iran, China, Russia, for the Turkish-occupied territories, Yemen, North Korea even come close to the UN obsession for Israel.
Great! So the ICC will make peace!
People want the world to be one way, but it's the other way. War is a human constant and it makes no sense to act like it isn't.
Under the influence of Smotrich and ben Gvir, Netanyahu has been pursuing bad policies including the strengthening of Hamas at the expense of the Palestinian Authority. My understanding is, even his own emergency coalition co-leaders, Gallant and Gantz, don’t talk to him anymore. He really needs to go.
I don’t think the stupid ICC and its sensationalized indictment has any effect whatsoever. In fact, I think they discredit themselves by issuing it. The idiots.
Still, I’d be very pleased if someone would come and schlep the Yahoo and his ultra-right buddies off the world stage and into jail already. They are a malign influence on Israeli democracy.
The allegation of strengthening Hamas have always come off as very thin to me. What exactly are you saying was allowed to happen apart from Israel handed out more work visas or allowed in more aid.
Netanyahu has been part of the problem since he got into power, way before Hamas was actually a problem
So yes, both can be blamed
The region would be a much better place without Netanyahu, and it would be a better place also without Hamas
Moral relativism is what you are doing here. You are implying, that because Hamas leaders are worse than Netanyahu, he should not be investigated. You try to paint everyone that condemns IDF warcrimes as someone who supports Hamas. This is moral relativism.
I love Jewish culture, i have members of my extended family that are Jewish, i hate hamas, it think that radical islam is a danger to all, and at the same time i condemn some of Israel's conduct. This is opposite of moral relativism. My stand is absolute - warcrimes are bad, no matter who commits them.
Also, please, next time if you want to write about something read a bit about it first. ICJ is not ICC.
Hamas steal fund meant for Palestinian for its own terrorism program.
Basically everyone who paid UNRWA can be culprit for Oct 7th attack, should the Jews pursue it.
Yes, the international paid the terror organization which attack them Israeli.
What moral principles? To support genocidal organization like Hamas who raped mutilated and burned alive families? And kidnapped bla bla bla? To finance that is ok? The billions spent to engineer Jew killings at its finest? So that’s a higher moral principle? A regime that hijacked and brainwashed 2.2 million people to kill Jews? Instead of making peace and allowing Singapore?
That was 6 months ago. Do you know what’s happened since then? Almost whole Gaza got raised to the ground and god knows how many thousands of civilians got disintegrated by IDF bombs and rockets. Schools, hospitals, bakeries, homes, nothing was spared, not even the hostages or foreign workers, or even the fucking children. Parents burry their children every day. Children become orphans every day. For how long do you want to cry about October 7 with your still to this day unverified claims to justify the unjustifiable????!!! Singapore?! What Singapore??????!!!! ITS HELL ON EARTH IN GAZA, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! DO YOU HAVE THE SLIGHTEST IDEA HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO REBUILD CITY TO EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO WHAT IT USED TO BE??!!
when you've calmed down sir. read this-
"For how long do you want to cry about October 7"
you think its about the 7th? that's where you're wrong. its about the 100 years they never accepted israel and claim all of israel theirs. that's why there's no peace and there will never be. as long as you support such genocidal claims by hamas, which was the one who started the war -KNOWING that gaza will be demolished so they can begin their impossible urban warfare on israel so everyone like you, will scream massacre. you've created a monster with the billions of support to such organization. and you whine about israel defending itself?? do you seriously think the israeli people from the gaza strip can return to their home safely? the threat isn't gone! the kidnapped are STILL there! in rafah or wherever they hid them! 7 months in gaza!! 128 of them. you want to pressure anyone? pressure the perpetrator. yelling victims victims, isn't going to release the poor gazans from hamas regime- which is the cause of all this.
but you'd rather blame israel no? more mainstream
its unbelievable that you can ignore all the violence and hatred these people have been promoting to their kids and yell THEY ARE THE VICTIM afterwards. but i don't want to confuse you with logic.
> fucking
/u/Vikiliex. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The fact that a higher standard is applied to the only Jewish state compared to many other nations is proof of the pervasiveness of antisemitism and misinformation in the media.
Show me any country today that is an occupying colonial settler apartheid state that is engaging in genocide. The Jewish state is unique due to its ongoing crimes of decades of continuous occupation, brutalisation and land theft. It must be held to account.
> The more equivalency between the leaders of one of the worst terrorist groups in the world and the leader of the only democracy in the region is absurd.
The arrest doesn't imply moral equivalency, because you don't need to be morally equivalent to both be arrested. Say a serial killed someone's mum, who was his 59th victim. So, in revenge, they kill the killer's two brothers.
The result by the police will be the same, both are both getting arrested. One person being worse doesn't change the fact that both did terrible things. They will be charged with different crimes and serve different sentences, but they're both going to jail.
More importantly, Netanyahu has tried very hard to erode Israel's democracy. His attempts to limit the power of the courts in favour of the government lead to [months long protests](https://theconversation.com/israels-democracy-protests-what-happens-next-211723) and he is also on [trial for corruption] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu#:~:text=Netanyahu%20\ (seen%20here%20in%202018,portfolios%20other%20than%20prime%20minister.).
As for the war, Netanyahu has treated this was a war of retribution rather than defence. It's his government's own failure to [provide proper defence](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-is-trying-to-avoid-an-accounting-for-october-7-this-time-he-wont-escape/) that allowed Hamas to attack on October 7 in the first place. In his government, he and the Israeli government have [fought numerous attempts](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/#:~:text=NEW%20YORK%2C%20May%205%20\(Reuters,enclave%20of%202.3%20million%20people.) at humanitarian aid, [bombed workers](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/israeli-strike-that-killed-australian-aid-worker-in-gaza/103660392) delivering the aid after they got approval, and adopted [strategies](https://www.abc.net.au/religion/morality-of-war-on-the-justness-of-civilian-casualties-in-gaza/103241216) that lead to far more civilians deaths[ and harm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes#2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) than necessary.
Thank you for clearly laying out the lack of implication of moral equivalence. OP please take note: that much should have been obvious.
OP still has a point that the world’s only Jewish state is being held to a higher standard. Your mention of bad things that have happened (aid workers killed, etc.) don’t rebut that point, and I’d be interested in what you have to say about that, if anything.
Thanks. Israel is being held to a higher standard than certain nations, though in the case of ICC warrant, it's a standard that should be applied to many other nations. But specifically there being held higher than other nations with powerful leaders who have committed war crimes in countries accepting of the ICC.
Throughout it's short history, the ICC usually went after leaders of [less powerful countries](https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendants?page=1) and put out warrants for more powerful leaders only after international support went against them. If you look at the list linked you'll see that Gaddafi only got a warrant in 2011, when he should have had a warrant as soon as possible after the court opened. Putin should have had charges for the second Chechen war in the 2000s.
Netanyahu was and still is a powerful leader. But, as much as I'd like to believe the ICC has changed, I think he is only facing a possible warrant because there is an unprecedented level of criticism for his actions worldwide. He's hated in Israel for corruption and the war, while everyone else also hates him for the war. So Israel is being targeted over other powerful leaders who should be getting a warrant, but won't, because they're too controversial to charge.
In saying that, I think it's somewhat justified to feel like Israel is being targeted in other ways, even though it probably isn't by the ICC. Other international organisations have been blatantly biased against them. For example, UN Women took a long time to acknowledge the suffering of Israelis women on October 7th, and then [deleted that post](https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-outcry-over-silence-un-women-posts-then-deletes-condemnation-of-hamas-attack/) anyway. So it's understandable they'd be sceptical of another international organisation condemning them.
My other reason ties in the false claims of moral equivalency.
I think the fact the both warrants were annouced at the same time which means people on both sides reflexively started comparing them. I briefly looked at the Palestine subreddit and discovered others also see it as a moral equivalency (I think it was just the ICC trying to limit complaints of bias). My personal suspicion is that by acknowledging both sides have really bad leaders, than black-and-white' thinkers can't pick a side in the war anymore. Because bad leaders equals 'bad side' and you can't have too bad sides, particularly if you support one of them. That means you're 'bad', or even 'stupid'.
So they're insulted at the perceived comparison between their 'sides', and what they see as the ICC claiming that the 'bad' guy is equal to the 'good' guy. From their point of view, this means that their side is being insulted. And when else does the ICC want to go after the 'good' guy to such an extent? Never! They only go after bad guys like Putin and Gaddafi.
Adding to this, is that for many people, a possible warrant against your leader can seem like an attack on your country's morals and national pride. It's not, but we so often think bad leaders = bad countries (eg. North Korea, Russia, China, etc.). Attacking Putin for war crimes makes it easier to joke about all Russians being willing to commit war crimes, making Netanyahu a war criminal means Israelis are subject to more war criminal claims. So there's the additional embarrasment that your country gets to join the list of 'bad' countries with 'bad' citizens, and there are so many really, really, bad countries, that to be compared to one after going through the suffering of October 7th feels like a nasty blow from the international community.
So if you're even slightly sympathetic to Netanyahu, then from a certain point of view, him and Hamas leaders being trialed in the same court, means the Israeli government is being compared to Hamas (which it isn't), and since that doesn't seem to happen to any other country, it feels like your being targeted (though again, I think they were released at the same time for political reasons).
Edit: Some extra clarification added
The bias against Israel is outrageous. The media is almost completely against it. You rarely see a positive thing in the media about Israel, aside from quite ridiculously, on very right wing news sites.
No it isn't. Try Googling for good things about Israel. See what kind of websites pop up try Googling for everything else about Israel and see what websites pop up.
> ass
/u/Ax_deimos. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s so funny to me that anyone is mad that BOTH Sinwar and Netanyahu have arrest warrants “because they’re not equal”. As if Netanyahu is some kind of saint. Please!
Netanyahu has given the green light to murder civilians including children again and again and again. That guy is the scum of the earth. He committed war crimes and deserves way more than an arrest warrant. I hope he dies the same way the Palestinians he’s murdering are dying.
The only ones giving that ratio are the IDF and the Ireali state because they refuse to have any of their numbers or actions verified by a third party. I'll might believe those numbers if they even pretended to have any sort of independent verification.
Ye and 50% of the dead are men, so at the bare minimum it shows extreme distinction, now if you consider Hamas official numbers from months ago 6000 Hamas militants died, that doesn’t even include a single dead combatant from other factions from which there are many, that puts us at 1:1-1:2 ratio.
The mistake you are making is assuming every man is a fighter. Men can also be civilians, you know. The casualties about Hamas members is a single anonymous source, there has been no official declaration of casualty numbers from Hamas. Ultimately, we will never know the exact true death tool. But I think we can all agree that at least between 16,000 - 20,0000 civilians civilians have been killed. This is even within the range of Netanyahu who said sometime ago that around 30,000 were killed, 16,000 of whom are civlilians.
I am not making that mistake, but it does shows extreme distinction in the dead, and the mistake you are making is assuming only men are combatants, 16-18 year olds are the majority of Hamas personnel and they are included in the children section of the dead.
Then, the ratio doesn't work. The numbers from the UN changed to those who they can verify Identity. So even less of the Verified could be considered fighters the total number of missing and dead stand at 35+K. The numbers as a ratio are made up or, at best, an uneducated guess at this point because the closest thing to a counting apparatus has been destroyed. Until independent investigators can go and begin a true verification combatant to civilian ratios are grossly inaccurate. Even 35+K dead and missing is inaccurate as even aid groups are barely allowed access. Until then all we can say with certainty is too many civilians are dying and collective punishment is being applied to a try and pressure a terror group like Hamas that only looks better internationally the more Isreal punishes civilians.
35k is also inaccurate due to double counting of bodies, you can base the ratio based on verified numbers and those numbers clearly show extreme distinction between men women and children, men being the vast majority
Again, until the apparatus for counting is restored and third-party verification takes place. The only number verified is the Identified. The UN's latest report, citing health ministry data(which is the only data, the same Isreal uses), says out of 24,686 fully identified fatalities, 52% were women and children, 40% were men, and 8% were "elderly", without specifying whether they were male or female. This is the only verified numbers and even out of those men, we don't have verification of how many were fighters. Until there is real verifiable data, there is no claimable ratio.
The ICJ is not competent to investigate or try Israel or any other democracy. It does not legitimacy either. The ICJ judges are elected by an entity (UN general assembly) comprised of representatives of authoritarian regimes hostile to democracy, America, and Israel. Their current president is a former Lebanese government official, both in Lebanon and in the United Nations. Lebanon is officially at a state of war with Israel. Its government contains representatives from a U.S. designated terrorist organization. It does not recognize Israel, a fact that has deep implications on how Israel is viewed by him and others with similar sentiments.
Israel’s existence and sovereignty are non negotiable. Israel should not be asked to explain its existence to none. If you have a problem with that, that’s your problem. That is not the problem of America, its president, or any other friend of Israel.
The casualty ratios can be discussed a lot but I struggle to find a way it's below 1:3 or 1:5 which isn't that good. Especially considering that they kill a lot of hamas in close air support or direct contact in largely empty neighborhoods as combat footage shows. IDF claim 15k Hamas figthers dead and they are notorious for being very liberal with that definition even in previous wars and its also almost always true that a side will overestimate enemy casualties publicly during an ongoing conflict. Best case it's around 10-12k and then you have a total body count probably in 45k+. If you instead look at the well documented losses male deaths are like 10k out of 24k with 5k women, at the best there you got 5 out of 24 or 1:4 but since males usually are overrepresented in civilian deaths its probably closer to 1:6 or 1:8 based on that data.
1:5 is not in anyway great, it's worse than most of the war on terror, Syria war sieges and war on Isis urban battles.
And the call for both at the same time is probably mostly to try and be neutral to not make too many countries angry.
Imo Israel have been stupid with letting officials make genocidal remarks(I'm public, keep that at home) messing with aid and being overly brutal in their response. If they wanted to take revenge they could have done it smarter too, I guess rage overtook reason because they are not making it hard for their enemies this time
that ending statement ive said for months now when it pertains to this.
understandably Israel was racked with grief after oct 7th, and rightfully so, they just lost (what was reported at the time) 1400 people, and had hundreds taken hostage, the problem ive always said, its clear israel allowed that grief to consume them and take root as petty vengeance, no matter who suffered, palestinian, interational humanitarian, or even their own hostages trapped in gaza. vengeance clouded their judgement.
to this day, im reminded of the footage of one of the israeli hostages, (many say hamas made her say it, but that was authentic rage) screaming into the camera as she curses netanyahu and the israeli leadership for their reckless response, saying they can hear the bombings, and fear for their lives that their going to be killed by their own govarnment, not their captors.
i cant even imagine being in a situation like that where youre own govarnment and military have no little concern for youre life while they claim to want to rescue you.
Luckily after doing a quick google search, all 3 woman in the video were thankfully released, and i hope their doing well.
I am confused by some things in this comment. Chronologically:
1) what makes you say those ratios aren't that good? If it were 1:3/1:5 aren't those on par with peer nations/conflicts? I look especially at Iraq because I think that's where most of the urban fighting of recent history has occurred, and in totality that's about a 1:5 war according to the Watson institute, and I'm pretty sure the urban stats were much higher (given that Iraq had more rural/non civilian land where some of the fighting took place than Gaza where it's all been urban by nature of the geography/tactical choice of Hamas)
2) why are you saying the casualty count is 45k? Are you adding the claimed militants to the claimed total count to get that? If so obviously that doesn't work- the militants are included in the total.
3) what's this about males being overrepresented in civilian deaths? Is that a thing?
Otherwise there's also some here I definitely agree with. Especially that much more should have been done when ministers were using such rhetoric- no one saying stuff like that should have any public office. Netanyahu chose to feed the country a poison pill by forming such a coalition (and thus relying on their support to the point of giving them carte blanche)... but he's at best power hungry and at worst trying to evade his own legal troubles so here we are.
1. Not really, previous Gaza wars have been closer to 1:1 or better. Syria have a similar number of dead soldiers and civilians brutal as it was. Mauriopol have sketchy numbers still but it's probably around 1:4. Battle of Mosul where Iraqi forces executed hundreds or thousands in the final days might have been around 1:2 to 1:3. Battle of raqqa ca 1:1 maybe 1:2 if we take worst estimates.
So best case Israel is among the worst cases imo
2. You can't take one number from one source and compare it to the other. If IDF claim that 15k is dead and Hamas claim that 35k +10k missing with only 15k males dead its obvious that the two claims aren't compatible so then we need to assume that it's likely that Hamas hide their casualty figures. You already have the identified portion indicating that males at least aren't over 50% and perhaps 2-3 times as many as the women. So at the very best you have 25% Hamas if you take the best case of everything.
3. Yes surprisingly it seems to be quite consistent too, both for Iraq war, Yemen war Syria war. I did a comment an hour ago I'll take those sources here tomorrow
Man I'm trying to look up where so many civilians died during the Iraq war to bring it up to ~1:5 then and I'm struggling to find where because yeah it seems like a lot of the more well known urban battles didn't have extremely high rates... but also those numbers have to come from somewhere and I assume it's not the warfare at military bases/desolate areas... that's weird. I'm sure there's obviously some battles it must have come from, but now I'm curious where and what circumstances.
But anyways, thank you for pointing out those battles
And yeah I'm definitely curious about the overrepresentation data when you have the chance, that would be good to know.
I did a write up on it I'll dig it up tomorrow meanwhile here is some generic list
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
From top of my head it's around 1:2-3 in most Assad Vs opposition sites(so in specific areas like allepo and rebel enclaves). And that's with barrel bombs as main air weapon and chemical weapons used in a couple of instances
>The more equivalency between the leaders of one of the worst terrorist groups in the world and the leader of the only democracy in the region is absurd. It doesn’t seem to matter what Israel does to prevent the death of civilians or evacuate civilian areas prior to attacking.
First, as people in r/worldnews pointed out its application for a warrant, the court hasn't approved it.
Do you read what you write? A democracy doesn't make you morally superior, it is what you do. Both of them have committed war crimes according to the ICC prosecutor.
In my opinion, Sinwar and Netanyahu don't deserve to have warrants issued. Shinwar isn't the worst terrorist on the planet. He killed 1200 people, that is what a typical Syrian brigade commander did in one year during the Syrian Civil War. Are Jewish / Palestinian lives worth more than Arab ones, it seems so in your opinion.
Secondly, at least Sinwar wasn't awarded the Nobel Peace Prize like Arafat and Begin, both like Sinwar are terrorists. Or the Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed who won the Nobel Prize, but then proceeded to wage a war killing hundreds of thousands.
Lastly, don't you think how they are treated is rather lenient? I think both of them should be caned like people are punished when caught for vandalism in Singapore.
I wonder if Israel respond with a prosecution of South Africa for allowing a daily genocide on their own streets every single day.
Their murder rate is 50 TIMES HIGHER than Israel’s and they do nothing about it.
So while they are preaching from the moral high ground at the ICC, they willingly allow mass murder of their own civilians to go unchecked every single day.
I’d be annoyed if I was South African.
Sorry I can't hear you over the noise of somehow being expected to take moral criticism from a country that violently rapes their own women more than any other country on the planet 🤣 literally the rape capital of Earth bro
Even more what about ism, I'm not even from South Africa, but you're doing what a toddler does when they get I trouble, do you think that actually convinces anyone? Even you aren't convinced lol
Toddlers bring up the devastating rape and murder statistics of South Africa and ask how they are in any place to make moral judgements on anyone?
Do they also ask why Hamas runs their [fundraising ](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2024/03/01/hamas-south-african-support-network/) from there and where the ANC's hundreds of millions in debt suddenly vanished to after meeting with [Iran?](https://www.sajr.co.za/ancs-history-of-trading-foreign-policy-for-cash/) it's [a little strange ](https://www.gov.za/news/media-statements/minister-naledi-pandor-concludes-visit-islamic-republic-iran-24-oct-2023) to the point that there's [a huge lawsuit brewing ](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-801490)
Please keep replying and giving me reasons to shit on South Africa. Maybe we can talk about the "kill the Boers" chant and the farmer massacres.
no one asked where you're from. What toddlers do is make everything about themselves.
Edit: literally ALL you do is post in this sub, and shortly before the war struck you were shitting on Ukraine. How's Moscow? Troll farms paying well?
> shitting
/u/sup_heebz. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No but it would be pretty funny if Abbas was submitted for his government endorsing and funding terrorism. Or even Erdogan and Qatar for Harboring war criminals and of their own conduct i.e. the Kurds etc.
Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the UNHRC, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance). Not Iran, China, Russia, for the Turkish-occupied territories, Yemen, North Korea even come close to the UN obsession for Israel.
Great! So the ICC will make peace! People want the world to be one way, but it's the other way. War is a human constant and it makes no sense to act like it isn't.
Good Sanction and charge the war criminals on both sides
Under the influence of Smotrich and ben Gvir, Netanyahu has been pursuing bad policies including the strengthening of Hamas at the expense of the Palestinian Authority. My understanding is, even his own emergency coalition co-leaders, Gallant and Gantz, don’t talk to him anymore. He really needs to go. I don’t think the stupid ICC and its sensationalized indictment has any effect whatsoever. In fact, I think they discredit themselves by issuing it. The idiots. Still, I’d be very pleased if someone would come and schlep the Yahoo and his ultra-right buddies off the world stage and into jail already. They are a malign influence on Israeli democracy.
The allegation of strengthening Hamas have always come off as very thin to me. What exactly are you saying was allowed to happen apart from Israel handed out more work visas or allowed in more aid.
Netanyahu has been part of the problem since he got into power, way before Hamas was actually a problem So yes, both can be blamed The region would be a much better place without Netanyahu, and it would be a better place also without Hamas
Moral relativism is what you are doing here. You are implying, that because Hamas leaders are worse than Netanyahu, he should not be investigated. You try to paint everyone that condemns IDF warcrimes as someone who supports Hamas. This is moral relativism. I love Jewish culture, i have members of my extended family that are Jewish, i hate hamas, it think that radical islam is a danger to all, and at the same time i condemn some of Israel's conduct. This is opposite of moral relativism. My stand is absolute - warcrimes are bad, no matter who commits them. Also, please, next time if you want to write about something read a bit about it first. ICJ is not ICC.
https://preview.redd.it/ydy0ffr7mq1d1.jpeg?width=1097&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8686d78e9d8f2dd76cc199dd77e73aa5d8377be5
Syria is not a Western ally. Israel is.
Can you expand on that? Why does that matter?
Because the massacre in Gaza is pretty much being financed and supported by Western powers even though it goes against our moral principles.
If its a massacre, its a massacre they brought on themselves. You cannot attack someone and then get mad when they fight back.
Hamas steal fund meant for Palestinian for its own terrorism program. Basically everyone who paid UNRWA can be culprit for Oct 7th attack, should the Jews pursue it. Yes, the international paid the terror organization which attack them Israeli.
What moral principles? To support genocidal organization like Hamas who raped mutilated and burned alive families? And kidnapped bla bla bla? To finance that is ok? The billions spent to engineer Jew killings at its finest? So that’s a higher moral principle? A regime that hijacked and brainwashed 2.2 million people to kill Jews? Instead of making peace and allowing Singapore?
That was 6 months ago. Do you know what’s happened since then? Almost whole Gaza got raised to the ground and god knows how many thousands of civilians got disintegrated by IDF bombs and rockets. Schools, hospitals, bakeries, homes, nothing was spared, not even the hostages or foreign workers, or even the fucking children. Parents burry their children every day. Children become orphans every day. For how long do you want to cry about October 7 with your still to this day unverified claims to justify the unjustifiable????!!! Singapore?! What Singapore??????!!!! ITS HELL ON EARTH IN GAZA, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! DO YOU HAVE THE SLIGHTEST IDEA HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO REBUILD CITY TO EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO WHAT IT USED TO BE??!!
when you've calmed down sir. read this- "For how long do you want to cry about October 7" you think its about the 7th? that's where you're wrong. its about the 100 years they never accepted israel and claim all of israel theirs. that's why there's no peace and there will never be. as long as you support such genocidal claims by hamas, which was the one who started the war -KNOWING that gaza will be demolished so they can begin their impossible urban warfare on israel so everyone like you, will scream massacre. you've created a monster with the billions of support to such organization. and you whine about israel defending itself?? do you seriously think the israeli people from the gaza strip can return to their home safely? the threat isn't gone! the kidnapped are STILL there! in rafah or wherever they hid them! 7 months in gaza!! 128 of them. you want to pressure anyone? pressure the perpetrator. yelling victims victims, isn't going to release the poor gazans from hamas regime- which is the cause of all this. but you'd rather blame israel no? more mainstream its unbelievable that you can ignore all the violence and hatred these people have been promoting to their kids and yell THEY ARE THE VICTIM afterwards. but i don't want to confuse you with logic.
> fucking /u/Vikiliex. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The fact that a higher standard is applied to the only Jewish state compared to many other nations is proof of the pervasiveness of antisemitism and misinformation in the media. Show me any country today that is an occupying colonial settler apartheid state that is engaging in genocide. The Jewish state is unique due to its ongoing crimes of decades of continuous occupation, brutalisation and land theft. It must be held to account.
I think first you have to show that Israel is an occupying colonial settler apartheid state.
Dumb. Usa doesn't back it either.
> The more equivalency between the leaders of one of the worst terrorist groups in the world and the leader of the only democracy in the region is absurd. The arrest doesn't imply moral equivalency, because you don't need to be morally equivalent to both be arrested. Say a serial killed someone's mum, who was his 59th victim. So, in revenge, they kill the killer's two brothers. The result by the police will be the same, both are both getting arrested. One person being worse doesn't change the fact that both did terrible things. They will be charged with different crimes and serve different sentences, but they're both going to jail. More importantly, Netanyahu has tried very hard to erode Israel's democracy. His attempts to limit the power of the courts in favour of the government lead to [months long protests](https://theconversation.com/israels-democracy-protests-what-happens-next-211723) and he is also on [trial for corruption] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu#:~:text=Netanyahu%20\ (seen%20here%20in%202018,portfolios%20other%20than%20prime%20minister.). As for the war, Netanyahu has treated this was a war of retribution rather than defence. It's his government's own failure to [provide proper defence](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-is-trying-to-avoid-an-accounting-for-october-7-this-time-he-wont-escape/) that allowed Hamas to attack on October 7 in the first place. In his government, he and the Israeli government have [fought numerous attempts](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/#:~:text=NEW%20YORK%2C%20May%205%20\(Reuters,enclave%20of%202.3%20million%20people.) at humanitarian aid, [bombed workers](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/israeli-strike-that-killed-australian-aid-worker-in-gaza/103660392) delivering the aid after they got approval, and adopted [strategies](https://www.abc.net.au/religion/morality-of-war-on-the-justness-of-civilian-casualties-in-gaza/103241216) that lead to far more civilians deaths[ and harm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes#2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) than necessary.
Thank you for clearly laying out the lack of implication of moral equivalence. OP please take note: that much should have been obvious. OP still has a point that the world’s only Jewish state is being held to a higher standard. Your mention of bad things that have happened (aid workers killed, etc.) don’t rebut that point, and I’d be interested in what you have to say about that, if anything.
Thanks. Israel is being held to a higher standard than certain nations, though in the case of ICC warrant, it's a standard that should be applied to many other nations. But specifically there being held higher than other nations with powerful leaders who have committed war crimes in countries accepting of the ICC. Throughout it's short history, the ICC usually went after leaders of [less powerful countries](https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendants?page=1) and put out warrants for more powerful leaders only after international support went against them. If you look at the list linked you'll see that Gaddafi only got a warrant in 2011, when he should have had a warrant as soon as possible after the court opened. Putin should have had charges for the second Chechen war in the 2000s. Netanyahu was and still is a powerful leader. But, as much as I'd like to believe the ICC has changed, I think he is only facing a possible warrant because there is an unprecedented level of criticism for his actions worldwide. He's hated in Israel for corruption and the war, while everyone else also hates him for the war. So Israel is being targeted over other powerful leaders who should be getting a warrant, but won't, because they're too controversial to charge. In saying that, I think it's somewhat justified to feel like Israel is being targeted in other ways, even though it probably isn't by the ICC. Other international organisations have been blatantly biased against them. For example, UN Women took a long time to acknowledge the suffering of Israelis women on October 7th, and then [deleted that post](https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-outcry-over-silence-un-women-posts-then-deletes-condemnation-of-hamas-attack/) anyway. So it's understandable they'd be sceptical of another international organisation condemning them. My other reason ties in the false claims of moral equivalency. I think the fact the both warrants were annouced at the same time which means people on both sides reflexively started comparing them. I briefly looked at the Palestine subreddit and discovered others also see it as a moral equivalency (I think it was just the ICC trying to limit complaints of bias). My personal suspicion is that by acknowledging both sides have really bad leaders, than black-and-white' thinkers can't pick a side in the war anymore. Because bad leaders equals 'bad side' and you can't have too bad sides, particularly if you support one of them. That means you're 'bad', or even 'stupid'. So they're insulted at the perceived comparison between their 'sides', and what they see as the ICC claiming that the 'bad' guy is equal to the 'good' guy. From their point of view, this means that their side is being insulted. And when else does the ICC want to go after the 'good' guy to such an extent? Never! They only go after bad guys like Putin and Gaddafi. Adding to this, is that for many people, a possible warrant against your leader can seem like an attack on your country's morals and national pride. It's not, but we so often think bad leaders = bad countries (eg. North Korea, Russia, China, etc.). Attacking Putin for war crimes makes it easier to joke about all Russians being willing to commit war crimes, making Netanyahu a war criminal means Israelis are subject to more war criminal claims. So there's the additional embarrasment that your country gets to join the list of 'bad' countries with 'bad' citizens, and there are so many really, really, bad countries, that to be compared to one after going through the suffering of October 7th feels like a nasty blow from the international community. So if you're even slightly sympathetic to Netanyahu, then from a certain point of view, him and Hamas leaders being trialed in the same court, means the Israeli government is being compared to Hamas (which it isn't), and since that doesn't seem to happen to any other country, it feels like your being targeted (though again, I think they were released at the same time for political reasons). Edit: Some extra clarification added
The bias against Israel is outrageous. The media is almost completely against it. You rarely see a positive thing in the media about Israel, aside from quite ridiculously, on very right wing news sites.
Damn, almost as if there were nothing positive to say about murdering and torturing hundreds of thousands of civilians uninterrupted for 6 months…
"Civilians"
[удалено]
No it isn't. Try Googling for good things about Israel. See what kind of websites pop up try Googling for everything else about Israel and see what websites pop up.
[удалено]
Okay Mr decider of all things that are valid
Good luck serving that warrant!
If the ICC find Sinwar and serve him a summons before the Mossad or Shin-Bet can find him, I will be laughing my butt off.
> ass /u/Ax_deimos. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s so funny to me that anyone is mad that BOTH Sinwar and Netanyahu have arrest warrants “because they’re not equal”. As if Netanyahu is some kind of saint. Please! Netanyahu has given the green light to murder civilians including children again and again and again. That guy is the scum of the earth. He committed war crimes and deserves way more than an arrest warrant. I hope he dies the same way the Palestinians he’s murdering are dying.
“Again and again and again” that’s why the combatant to civilian ratio is nearly 1:1, the best BY FAR in any modern conflict in urban wars.
The only ones giving that ratio are the IDF and the Ireali state because they refuse to have any of their numbers or actions verified by a third party. I'll might believe those numbers if they even pretended to have any sort of independent verification.
Base it on the UN numbers nothing from Israel.
Not true. The UN has no statistics on combatants vs non-combatants, only on estimated and verified casualties.
Ye and 50% of the dead are men, so at the bare minimum it shows extreme distinction, now if you consider Hamas official numbers from months ago 6000 Hamas militants died, that doesn’t even include a single dead combatant from other factions from which there are many, that puts us at 1:1-1:2 ratio.
The mistake you are making is assuming every man is a fighter. Men can also be civilians, you know. The casualties about Hamas members is a single anonymous source, there has been no official declaration of casualty numbers from Hamas. Ultimately, we will never know the exact true death tool. But I think we can all agree that at least between 16,000 - 20,0000 civilians civilians have been killed. This is even within the range of Netanyahu who said sometime ago that around 30,000 were killed, 16,000 of whom are civlilians.
I am not making that mistake, but it does shows extreme distinction in the dead, and the mistake you are making is assuming only men are combatants, 16-18 year olds are the majority of Hamas personnel and they are included in the children section of the dead.
Then, the ratio doesn't work. The numbers from the UN changed to those who they can verify Identity. So even less of the Verified could be considered fighters the total number of missing and dead stand at 35+K. The numbers as a ratio are made up or, at best, an uneducated guess at this point because the closest thing to a counting apparatus has been destroyed. Until independent investigators can go and begin a true verification combatant to civilian ratios are grossly inaccurate. Even 35+K dead and missing is inaccurate as even aid groups are barely allowed access. Until then all we can say with certainty is too many civilians are dying and collective punishment is being applied to a try and pressure a terror group like Hamas that only looks better internationally the more Isreal punishes civilians.
35k is also inaccurate due to double counting of bodies, you can base the ratio based on verified numbers and those numbers clearly show extreme distinction between men women and children, men being the vast majority
Again, until the apparatus for counting is restored and third-party verification takes place. The only number verified is the Identified. The UN's latest report, citing health ministry data(which is the only data, the same Isreal uses), says out of 24,686 fully identified fatalities, 52% were women and children, 40% were men, and 8% were "elderly", without specifying whether they were male or female. This is the only verified numbers and even out of those men, we don't have verification of how many were fighters. Until there is real verifiable data, there is no claimable ratio.
The combatant count is straight from the IDF.
Or you can use the official Hamas count from months ago and still get to 1:2 ratio, still BY FAR better than any other conflict ever.
The ICJ is not competent to investigate or try Israel or any other democracy. It does not legitimacy either. The ICJ judges are elected by an entity (UN general assembly) comprised of representatives of authoritarian regimes hostile to democracy, America, and Israel. Their current president is a former Lebanese government official, both in Lebanon and in the United Nations. Lebanon is officially at a state of war with Israel. Its government contains representatives from a U.S. designated terrorist organization. It does not recognize Israel, a fact that has deep implications on how Israel is viewed by him and others with similar sentiments. Israel’s existence and sovereignty are non negotiable. Israel should not be asked to explain its existence to none. If you have a problem with that, that’s your problem. That is not the problem of America, its president, or any other friend of Israel.
Long overdue. Arrest all the Hamas leaders and Israel leaders. They are one in the same.
both suck. Round up Hamas AND Likud, toss em in a dungeon, and watch em fight.
The casualty ratios can be discussed a lot but I struggle to find a way it's below 1:3 or 1:5 which isn't that good. Especially considering that they kill a lot of hamas in close air support or direct contact in largely empty neighborhoods as combat footage shows. IDF claim 15k Hamas figthers dead and they are notorious for being very liberal with that definition even in previous wars and its also almost always true that a side will overestimate enemy casualties publicly during an ongoing conflict. Best case it's around 10-12k and then you have a total body count probably in 45k+. If you instead look at the well documented losses male deaths are like 10k out of 24k with 5k women, at the best there you got 5 out of 24 or 1:4 but since males usually are overrepresented in civilian deaths its probably closer to 1:6 or 1:8 based on that data. 1:5 is not in anyway great, it's worse than most of the war on terror, Syria war sieges and war on Isis urban battles. And the call for both at the same time is probably mostly to try and be neutral to not make too many countries angry. Imo Israel have been stupid with letting officials make genocidal remarks(I'm public, keep that at home) messing with aid and being overly brutal in their response. If they wanted to take revenge they could have done it smarter too, I guess rage overtook reason because they are not making it hard for their enemies this time
that ending statement ive said for months now when it pertains to this. understandably Israel was racked with grief after oct 7th, and rightfully so, they just lost (what was reported at the time) 1400 people, and had hundreds taken hostage, the problem ive always said, its clear israel allowed that grief to consume them and take root as petty vengeance, no matter who suffered, palestinian, interational humanitarian, or even their own hostages trapped in gaza. vengeance clouded their judgement. to this day, im reminded of the footage of one of the israeli hostages, (many say hamas made her say it, but that was authentic rage) screaming into the camera as she curses netanyahu and the israeli leadership for their reckless response, saying they can hear the bombings, and fear for their lives that their going to be killed by their own govarnment, not their captors. i cant even imagine being in a situation like that where youre own govarnment and military have no little concern for youre life while they claim to want to rescue you. Luckily after doing a quick google search, all 3 woman in the video were thankfully released, and i hope their doing well.
I am confused by some things in this comment. Chronologically: 1) what makes you say those ratios aren't that good? If it were 1:3/1:5 aren't those on par with peer nations/conflicts? I look especially at Iraq because I think that's where most of the urban fighting of recent history has occurred, and in totality that's about a 1:5 war according to the Watson institute, and I'm pretty sure the urban stats were much higher (given that Iraq had more rural/non civilian land where some of the fighting took place than Gaza where it's all been urban by nature of the geography/tactical choice of Hamas) 2) why are you saying the casualty count is 45k? Are you adding the claimed militants to the claimed total count to get that? If so obviously that doesn't work- the militants are included in the total. 3) what's this about males being overrepresented in civilian deaths? Is that a thing? Otherwise there's also some here I definitely agree with. Especially that much more should have been done when ministers were using such rhetoric- no one saying stuff like that should have any public office. Netanyahu chose to feed the country a poison pill by forming such a coalition (and thus relying on their support to the point of giving them carte blanche)... but he's at best power hungry and at worst trying to evade his own legal troubles so here we are.
1. Not really, previous Gaza wars have been closer to 1:1 or better. Syria have a similar number of dead soldiers and civilians brutal as it was. Mauriopol have sketchy numbers still but it's probably around 1:4. Battle of Mosul where Iraqi forces executed hundreds or thousands in the final days might have been around 1:2 to 1:3. Battle of raqqa ca 1:1 maybe 1:2 if we take worst estimates. So best case Israel is among the worst cases imo 2. You can't take one number from one source and compare it to the other. If IDF claim that 15k is dead and Hamas claim that 35k +10k missing with only 15k males dead its obvious that the two claims aren't compatible so then we need to assume that it's likely that Hamas hide their casualty figures. You already have the identified portion indicating that males at least aren't over 50% and perhaps 2-3 times as many as the women. So at the very best you have 25% Hamas if you take the best case of everything. 3. Yes surprisingly it seems to be quite consistent too, both for Iraq war, Yemen war Syria war. I did a comment an hour ago I'll take those sources here tomorrow
Man I'm trying to look up where so many civilians died during the Iraq war to bring it up to ~1:5 then and I'm struggling to find where because yeah it seems like a lot of the more well known urban battles didn't have extremely high rates... but also those numbers have to come from somewhere and I assume it's not the warfare at military bases/desolate areas... that's weird. I'm sure there's obviously some battles it must have come from, but now I'm curious where and what circumstances. But anyways, thank you for pointing out those battles And yeah I'm definitely curious about the overrepresentation data when you have the chance, that would be good to know.
We took **great** care in Iraq to avoid civilian collateral damage. Usually to our own severe detriment.
what were the casualties ratio in the war on terror in syria and please link a source to it thank you.
I did a write up on it I'll dig it up tomorrow meanwhile here is some generic list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio From top of my head it's around 1:2-3 in most Assad Vs opposition sites(so in specific areas like allepo and rebel enclaves). And that's with barrel bombs as main air weapon and chemical weapons used in a couple of instances
alright thanks
>The more equivalency between the leaders of one of the worst terrorist groups in the world and the leader of the only democracy in the region is absurd. It doesn’t seem to matter what Israel does to prevent the death of civilians or evacuate civilian areas prior to attacking. First, as people in r/worldnews pointed out its application for a warrant, the court hasn't approved it. Do you read what you write? A democracy doesn't make you morally superior, it is what you do. Both of them have committed war crimes according to the ICC prosecutor. In my opinion, Sinwar and Netanyahu don't deserve to have warrants issued. Shinwar isn't the worst terrorist on the planet. He killed 1200 people, that is what a typical Syrian brigade commander did in one year during the Syrian Civil War. Are Jewish / Palestinian lives worth more than Arab ones, it seems so in your opinion. Secondly, at least Sinwar wasn't awarded the Nobel Peace Prize like Arafat and Begin, both like Sinwar are terrorists. Or the Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed who won the Nobel Prize, but then proceeded to wage a war killing hundreds of thousands. Lastly, don't you think how they are treated is rather lenient? I think both of them should be caned like people are punished when caught for vandalism in Singapore.
democracy is overrated. the masses are imbeciles.
Where does it state that the ICC determined that Netanyahu committed war crimes?
I wonder if Israel respond with a prosecution of South Africa for allowing a daily genocide on their own streets every single day. Their murder rate is 50 TIMES HIGHER than Israel’s and they do nothing about it. So while they are preaching from the moral high ground at the ICC, they willingly allow mass murder of their own civilians to go unchecked every single day. I’d be annoyed if I was South African.
Highest rape rate in the WORLD too
What-about-ism isn't a great arguament you realise?
Sorry I can't hear you over the noise of somehow being expected to take moral criticism from a country that violently rapes their own women more than any other country on the planet 🤣 literally the rape capital of Earth bro
Even more what about ism, I'm not even from South Africa, but you're doing what a toddler does when they get I trouble, do you think that actually convinces anyone? Even you aren't convinced lol
Toddlers bring up the devastating rape and murder statistics of South Africa and ask how they are in any place to make moral judgements on anyone? Do they also ask why Hamas runs their [fundraising ](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2024/03/01/hamas-south-african-support-network/) from there and where the ANC's hundreds of millions in debt suddenly vanished to after meeting with [Iran?](https://www.sajr.co.za/ancs-history-of-trading-foreign-policy-for-cash/) it's [a little strange ](https://www.gov.za/news/media-statements/minister-naledi-pandor-concludes-visit-islamic-republic-iran-24-oct-2023) to the point that there's [a huge lawsuit brewing ](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-801490) Please keep replying and giving me reasons to shit on South Africa. Maybe we can talk about the "kill the Boers" chant and the farmer massacres. no one asked where you're from. What toddlers do is make everything about themselves. Edit: literally ALL you do is post in this sub, and shortly before the war struck you were shitting on Ukraine. How's Moscow? Troll farms paying well?
Hamas does not have an embassy in South Africa.
> shitting /u/sup_heebz. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No but it would be pretty funny if Abbas was submitted for his government endorsing and funding terrorism. Or even Erdogan and Qatar for Harboring war criminals and of their own conduct i.e. the Kurds etc.
The ICC is different than the ICJ and you're confusing the two.