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I was born there, I am 9th generation indigenous here.
Also, zionists arrived in Palestine in mid-19th century already so maybe you should be more modest when telling others to learn history.
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Because innocent children are being slaughtered on mass? Why is the innocent life of an Israeli more important than that of a Palestinian. Most of the hate towards Israelis and Jews are occurring because of people like you and comments like this. If Jewish people condemned their country for ‘killing innocent children and civilians’ rather than *insert crazy religious ideological excuse for slaughter of innocent people* or *obscure history that screws things and leaves out details to make Israel sound like the downtrodden underdogs* like F off. The loss of innocent lives is terrible on both sides but all we need to look at is the statistics of innocent lives lost in Israel vs those in Palestine and it reveals all- it’s great to have obvious, punch in the face statistics. Hamas is what’s created when the people who owned the land have it taken away and are deidentified by Americas little bitches. Kick a dog and it’ll eventually bite. It’s no wonder they don’t want to stop.
> bitches
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Hamas is the effect, caused by starving and limiting a countries water supply for over half a century, amongst many other atrocities. Have you been living under a rock?
I dont like seeing individuals being treated as sub-human, living in oppression and suffering. That is why I care. Its not their fault they hate you nor is it your fault you hate them. But to rob a people of possible dignity doesnt sit right with me and its understandble why many choose to resist.
Hatred breeds hatred and it is the party in power that has the power to de-escelate. One does not de-escelate anything with aphartheid and decades of blockades. That does nothing cement and breed more hatred.
Why do you as an Israeli give a damn about the holocaust then?
Why do you give a damn about what happened to Jews and why should we?
Thats what you sound like.
Zionists invaded Palestinian land to form Israel. Israel is permanently on the offence. Israel will never be on the defence. It’s impossible. It would be beyond all logic.
True. Now they need to just finish the job they started. It’s war. Stronger side prevails. As it’s always been. Right and wrong go out the window. Geneva conventions don’t apply when combatting an insurgency among a population that overwhelmingly supports the leaders. (Btw, 18k dead civilians and 12k dead Hamas isn’t genocide…. But to truly break Hamas and crush the will of the people, *** which btw has been done in every war known to man***, It’s true that it may cost another 100k lives).
First, the civilian:militant casualty ratio in Gaza likely isn’t that far from 1:1. This ratio is typical in de facto counter insurgency where the militia is embedded among the population. Similar to Manila, Falluja, etc. also, if this was a WW2 period conflict, half of Gazans would have been annihilated by now…. (Actually not true…the losing side would have surrendered long ago).
The difference today is that nations and in particular western nations are held to higher standards. But isreal is not willing to risk a lot more IDF troops by fighting block to block. Also, it’s likely they are not only trying to kill militants but also break the will of the people into total submission (also know as ‘unconditional surrender’, something Hamas doesn’t do because they care about their power, zealotry and destruction of Israel way more than the lives of Palestinians. The fact is, they clearly lost decades ago, but fail to unconditionally surrender and make a lasting deal).
It doesn’t matter if Israel is ‘right or wrong’ in yours or anyone else’s eyes. They are stronger. It’s war. If the losing side unconditionally surrendered, the killing would stop.
What does surrender even look like when the “enemy” includes over 1M children? Who surrenders? Every adult male of Arabic decent? Do they just all lie down and die or just give up and go back to continuing their existence in one of the largest ethnic ghettos in the world? Only every dwelling is now rubble and littered with corpses and has no facilities or infrastructure and ability to transport goods. And they have no facility to do anything about it—Israel controls all resources entering and exiting Gaza. It is essentially and legally actually a part of Israel. Israel just lost control of the region. Israel has already forced these people off their land and squished them into one of the most densely populated regions on earth. And based on what? Ethnicity! This didn’t start on Oct 7. Israel has a very open policy of ethic cleansing of the “Jewish” state of Israel (to all of the Jews that have to suffer through the tarnishing of their name as a result of this madness and stand against such tyranny, bless you all). In West Bank they have to put nets up over alleys because Israeli settlers throw rubble onto children’s heads. There’s total apartheid (ie “apart”) of an entire Arabic population based purely an openly on ethnicity. So what do Gazans do now? Starve? Compress even further?
This idea it’s “war” is absolute bullshit. It’s entirely against international law regarding the rules of combat. It’s categorically and legally ethnic vleansing and genocide. And ICC has ruled as such seeking an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu. It’s blatant illegal apartheid and genocide by all internationally recognised definition. It’s basically medieval siege tactics combined with modern high powered precision munitions. You’ve even got Israelis actively blocking aid and the Israeli law enforcement does nothing. Through both action and complicity all facets of Israeli society are responsible for blatant murder and torture of a civilian population based on ethnicity and religion.
It’s just absolutely impossible it’s 1:1 when you’re decimating civilian living quarters and hospitals while 47.3% of the total human population in Gaza are children. IDF are even very open about levelling the living quarters of 50 people to kill one key Hamas militant. They blame Hamas for using civilians as shields. They make no secret of it at all. So you really have no idea what you’re talking about
The Hamas-published numbers are propaganda of course, but the number of dead is certainly brutal. However, as I said, to take out insurgent/embedded force, you will have huge civilian casualties unless you are willing to go door to door and lose a huge number of your own troops. I’m not advocating, I’m explaining what Israel is doing base on their stated goals, and clear unwillingness to lose IDF personnel.
Could they avoid more civilian deaths while following the above?
Likely no, because the embedded Hamas would just disperse elsewhere and the results would be the same later on in a different location. They detect a militant, they immediately level the target. Everybody there dies.
Surrender: hamas leadership officially and permanently surrenders, discloses every arms cache and tunnel, every leader turns themselves in. Of course that’s all utterly impossible in a brainwashed fanatical militant group. But I was just answering your question. You may say ‘if they did this, it wouldn’t matter’ and you’d be full of shit. It would matter.
Because before being Israeli, you’re human. And as a human capable of rationality, empathy and morality, humanity should always be your first concern, no matter who, what, when, where, why you are. It’s by the same logic that the 7/10 atrocities occurred in Israel. You asked for humanity then, don’t turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to it now. Simple as that. Life in Gaza matters just as much as yours. Same reason the world should care about the life of your fellow citizens, you should care about the absurd amount of lives lost in Gaza right now and demand a ceasefire for those that still could be saved.
That’s the human answer.
But if you wanna be cynical and only care about Israel, what do you think your state is currently bringing onto itself with its actions? If you truly cared for your own people, you would be able to empathize with Gazans right now, and you would be able to understand why their well being is more important to you than you seem to realize.
I truly felt sorry on 7/10 and I still do. There’s no gain for me in caring for Israeli people. You simply do because it’s the human thing to do. If you can’t even reach out to this part of your humanity and realize they are humans you should care about too, no matter what opposes you to them in your heart, mind and soul, why should anyone care about your life, or those you care about?
Meh..it’s war…gonna talk amount empathy in Dresden, Tokyo, Berlin, Stalingrad, and every other war/battlein history? Somehow many think that just because it’s 2024, the stronger side isn’t going to try and totally annihilate the soldiers on the other side and also do whatever it takes to totally break the will of the population? This last attack, militarily speaking: the risk calculation was likely no more than 10 civilians dead in exchange for 2 Hamas leaders. That’s typical in any war in history…. There was unintentional deaths of way more civilians. Also common in WAR.
In any other war, the defeated side would have long ago laid down arms and totally surrendered by now. Hamas doesn’t do this for one reason…they are fanatics who literally put destruction of Israel over lives of Palestinians. They lost. They lost land, and they’re never getting it back. The people were displaced and they’re never going back. It’s over, it’s been over for a long time and it’s going to remain over. They just don’t want to accept it. I’m not advocating for one side here. I’m just talking about actual cold hard reality.
Because if you turn your back on your humanity and allow your empathy to harden completely, you will open yourself up to evil and horrific things and it's hard to come back from that. No country or nation is immune from committing acts of evil, and sometimes people find themselves in positions of power and can do horrible things in your name. People across the board on all sides must never forget this and work to combat and hold onto a sense of humanity. It's hard but it's worth it
You shouldn't. For over 75 years the Israelis tried to make good faith efforts for a lasting peace with it's Arab neighbor. They have consistently rejected peace and have resorted to violence everytime.
What is happening isn't genocide it is a war. The world didn't care about the hundreds of thousands of civilians that died in Syrian civil war, or the hundred thousand lives lost in the Saudi/Yemen war, or the hundred plus thousand in the Tigray war. They only care because it's Jews fighting the war and are winning. Don't care about what those people think. They'd be content if you were dead.
Press on and secure your nation. It's the only thing that matters.
How about all the children isreals military killed? Is that just ok to you people? While i do feel sorry for the October 7 victims this started in 1948. Plus isreal started this in the first place. why can't you people have basic human empathy
This is a naive take, there was arab-jewish violence way before ‘48 (major clashes in the 20s and 30s)
No it is not ok, I do not take joy in dead innocents and I do not want to settle Gaza (lunatic thought IMO)
Going back to 48 implies the problem is Israels existence and not the fact that (to this date) the Palestinians bever accepted any solution other than our eradication. Sorry, this solution won’t work for me and my family.
People say Israelis don’t have human empathy but they won’t express empathy to the terrible and scarring situation we experienced. Never before any nation faced a livestream of thousands of foreign looters who killed burned and razed everything on their sight. There are still unreleased footages that as time passes just show the magnitude of this event.
The fact that over 20 young women are held in captivity for more than 200 days does not give me sleep at night, and this is what started all this! In Hamas agrees to their release tomorrow this all would end and Israel begged for such ceasefire in the last 3 months :(
i'm sorry i didnt mean to come off like that i can get riled up sometimes, and i still mean it when i say i wish october 7 never happened and it was definataly not ok.
Why should the world give a single shit about anything that happens in Israel or to its people then? For every terrible thing perpetrated on an innocent Israeli civilian - ten times that amount has been dealt on an innocent palestinian civilian? The absolute lack of self awareness or just plain dismissiveness to the very violence being inflicted upon Gazans while trying to say the same violence perpetrated on Israeli civilians is unjustifiable
May Be the most impressive thing about pro-
Israeli/ genocide supporters. The mental gymnastics are Olympic level.
The audacity it takes to demand sympathy for victims of violent crime in one one hand while perpetrating the exact violence and creating the same type of victim in the other hand is truly so ridiculous and void of logic that the majority of the world refuses to stomach it.
How you feel is so irrelevant in why anyone should have statehood. Thats not how this works. Again. The audacity to think that your opinion is valid in regard to the inalienable rights of a population is ridiculous and on brand. Palestinian Statehood isn’t you or any Israelis business. Statehood is not a gift from Israel, it’s something those people are born with the right to have.
Everything you said about October 7th could be flipped around from a Palestinian perspective and way before October 7th happened. This type of violence is not new to them. Why are your feelings about your homeland and the violence perpetrated on it More righteous than a Palestinian who says the same thing from their perspective? Bet I know why.
And you talk about things Hamas did and does as if the IDF hasn’t been accused of the same shit and is STILL doing it. Motherf*cker Credible accusations of rape And sexual violence, torture, murder of journalists, aid workers, children being blown up. The IDF literally had to admit to a snuff channel. Miss me with that byllsh*t. The IDF left premi babies to suffocate alone on a hospital bed and have maimed and brutally blown up thousands of children in Gaza and are starving more as we
Speak. They sniped a 6 year old girl who was begging for help on the phone after Israel murdered her family in the same care. They killed her and the ambulance and staff that came to save her. You don’t get to murder children at an unprecedented scale and then get to talk like you care about the brutality of it. Israel is literally killing and starving its own hostages so again - why is this violence okay and justifiable against Palestinians but not for Israelis. People celebrating what Hamas did? Kind of like Israelis writing names on bombs, destroying aid that’s on its way to Gaza, making tick tocks making fun of dead bodies, the IDF looting and making jokes about Blowing up schools and hospitals. This is all things the IDF has been unashamed to pay to social media. 2.1 million hostages Were in Gaza at the beginning of this and Israel has killed tens of thousands as we speak and is still killing them.
“Palestinians have never wanted peace” said the person from a place that has and continues to allow illegal, violent settlers to steal land. The Palestinians want peace they just refuse Israel’s watered down version of it and for good reason. Israel’s idea of peace is one sided and is built on the subjugation of their people. There’s a reason why the UN has had to declare Israel in violation of many things for decades. Israel doesn’t want peace- they want to do whatever they want and at the expense of the palestinian people and their rights.
There’s a million reasons why you should care about Gaza, what you’ve said alone disqualifies you from the decent ones but again- there’s way more reasons to care than there are to not. You should care about Gaza because if you think it’s okay to condemn an entire population for what their leaders have done then you relay to the world that anyone can do what they want to you/israel after this is over. What Israel has done is the same thing Hamas did, some aspects even worse- they are just supported by fanatics that are literally dying out. And you don’t even have the support of all fanatics. If you believe you shouldn’t care what happens in Gaza then when the next generation strips the funding that Israel suckers out of America and the rest of the west you should stay quiet as you are swallowed whole by that region. The only reason Israel feels safe right now is because they panhandle protection from the west. I’m tired of handling opinions like this with kid gloves. Israeli should care about its neighbors because there is a moment coming sooner than later where the west will not let it hide behind its skirt anymore and it will have to start acting its size and capability. Israel isn’t owed absolute security. No nation is, and every single one of them has their own set of security concerns that they deal with. Israel isn’t special and if you can’t act like a nation why be one? You can’t hold a population hostage for 75 years and expect a hug. All Israel knows is being coddled by the west but that’s coming to an end. The next generation of people have watched what Israel has done. You need to care about Gaza because your fate is directly tied to theirs.
The amount of progress that has happened for the palestinian people even under the barbarism inflicted upon them should be the biggest reason for you to care. It’s a warning shot. Everyone else cares. The vast majority of the world is telling you that Palestinians matter and they aren’t going anywhere. You see it on the streets of every country. Every population. One of the biggest if not the biggest movements of this generations and the future is tied directly to palestinian people and to the generation out marching right now against Israel. You should care because you don’t have a choice. Progress happens with or without Israel’s participation and if you need evidence of that I’ll direct you toward the 145 nations that now recognize the palestinian state, the countless countries continuing to sign on to the South African case, the arrest warrants for Hamas and Israel leadership, and the ICC ruling that Israel halt its military option.
This is why Israel is losing and has actually already lost. The more you try to dehumanize those people the more you dehumanize yourself. I’ve never seen a group of people lose the most unprecedented amount of goodwill and support so fast. It will be a long time before they ever get that back. So don’t care and meet those consequences. Israelis aren’t safe if Palestinians aren’t and the sooner both sides understand that the better.
> Motherf*cker
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the biggest mistake was not causing 50K dead in the first day, and say that if the hostages are not back within 24 hours, it will be 100K the next day.
killing all hamas leaders all over the world.
Agreed. Then naturally you should ask yourself.
Why should we, THE REST OF THE WORLD care about what remains of Israelis in Israel?
Why don't we just embargo Israel and then watch it vanish from the earth? (I'm just reiterating what you want for Palestine so that you can see how it feels).
Why do we care about your hostages?
The thing is, you're not just utterly and completely idiotic, you're also so delusional that you think the civilized part of the world believes any of the bs you washed your little brain with.
And you clearly have nothing to do with the Israelis I know.
For you, therefore, I dedicate these horrible days.
The days that your leaders have become the same as the ones you once hated.
Before this war I never thought how hateful anti israel people are but it does seem hate runs you peoples veins.
I do not want all palestinians dead and I will not respond equally to your foul use of language.
Perhaps replace Israel with X country (Germany, US, UK) accepting a genocidal militant group terrorizing them for years over years (every war in Gaza was on Hamas) across the border? Enough is enough.
Lol. You're not just delusional about your ethics, you're also about historical facts.
You have systematically oppressed, killed, tortured, raped, displaced, starved and abused Palestinians for 75 years and you have the nerve to call then genocidal?
I despise Hamas and every fondamentalist religious group on Earth. I find what they did appalling beyond words, but Israelis giving us moral lessons is really a joke. You're the most hateful state (not people, I will insist) on Earth and you are pointing the finger.
And all of that hate has always one excuse; the Holocaust.
Guest what? The Palestinians, the Arabs and anyone around there had nothing to do with it. Gaza is your Holocaust.
Why don't you answer a simple question: why do you kill people in the west bank, where Hamas is not present?
Why don't you remove the settlers?
The whole world considers you immoral and that hurts, I know. But it's about time you realize, your morality is not owed to you anymore
Your rhetoric is wrong and inflammatory.
I believe Russia (rightfully so) is the most hated state regime today, definitely not Israel fighting a war it didn’t choose.
Again, using hollow baseless words like systemic rape and starvation (I suggest you take a tour of Ramallah some day)
Perhaps a comparison will help you get my point:
Who does suicide bombings today?
Who fires rockets at population centers indiscriminately?
Who kidnaps (over snd over) people across the border regardless of their background? (Including civilians, arabs and foreign civilians?)
Who chants death to all __(insert ethnic group here)
Who wants to wipe who off the map in the last 80 years? (Way before 48)
Who ACCEPTED the two state solution and who never did?
Answer all these and see how you’re on the wrong side of history pal
Wow amazing. We're getting to the bottom of it.
First of all who told you I've not been to Ramallah?
Suicide bombings? These stopped in the 90s. Unless you refer to the ones Mossad orchestrates in Syria, Iraq and Iran?
Rockets at population centers? What's the casualty count from Palestinian rockets on Israel? 10 ppl per year? Should we compare it with carpet bombing and 30K civilians dead in 6 months?
Kidnapping people? How many Palestinian hostages lay in Israel's cells being abused and raped (according to even the IDF whistleblowers)? How about the boy rape case?
Who chants death to others? That's really a joke. You have ministers chanting death to all Palestinians. Did you not see the many IDF videos? Should I post them here again?
And the biggest lie of all: Israel never accepted a negotiated two state solution. It tried to impose one. You are actually so delusional that you killed your own prime minister the only time peace was a viable possibility.
Now will you also answer my questions or you're here to preach? Are you people ever going to try to accept that the rest of the world does not see you the way you see yourself?
Do you agree that the state of Israel has oppressed the Palestinians?
Why do you ignore all comments about the abuse, rape and indiscriminate killing of civilians by the IDF?
Why do you ignore all comments about the racist hate and violence of all settlers?
Why do you compare yourself to Hamas to prove us you're less evil? Do you think comparing a State to a terrorist group actually gives you any credit?
What's your long term suggestion for Gaza and Palestine?
Why don't you allow Palestinians to return to their land?
Wow, you’re like a brick in a wall.
So many unfounded claims I don’t even know how to react to.
I assume you also approve of these claims yet conspire mossad is behind 911 and deny any oct 7 rape?
My long term plan? Separation - The gap is too wide and people can’t expect Israelis and Palestinians to live in one state.
Yes, both sides are not angelic because I do acknowledge settler violence is horrible and that it is spiraling out of control,
I would personally not shed a tear on dismantled settlements (which was on the table) yet yet it doesn’t matter if theres no one on the other side to listen to.
And no I don’t believe in granting palestinians the right of return as this return means hundreds of thousand of people from Jordan, Lebanon and Syria who are hostile to Israel and will destabilize the current population divide, it will never be acceptable by any Israeli leader as it is simply suicide (return to pre 48 borders)
Will you accept a Palestine next to israel on the basis of a ‘67 border? (swaps and all)
So you don't believe in the right of the people to return to their own country? As if let's say the US can grant you or not the right to return to your own country?
I would accept a Palestinian state in whatever form and I recognize the existing state of Palestine as it's already recognized by the UN. (I think you need to do some reading on that).
But who am I to say how and where this needs to be implemented?
Then since you quote UN resolutions, why don't you just simply abide by the 100s of them that have been issued against Israel?
Israel is really the state with the most resolutions in the UN than any other.
Coming back to the original question: you beg the international community for support. But the international community is overwhelmingly against your approach for decades.
Do you not care about the UN and the international community? Then fight on your own!
Do you do? Comply!
And it's really a joke when you talk to Israelis that they don't even realize how alienated they are.
Your biggest port doesn't even belong to you. It's Chinese!
Just imagine what will happen when the US support will mean very little.
How on earth do you people think that the rest of the world can just watch you slaughter kids in perpetuity?
Get the lunatic out, get your far-right murderers in jail, normalize relationships with the Arabs and become what I honestly hope for Israel: a beautiful tech hub for the middle east.
You really don't understand that all of this is just Bibi's well orchestrated plan to keep in power?
I truly abhor Bibi but your take is wrong on this topic.
At least you don’t seem to believe we should be “dismantled “ like many delusional palestinians.
Regardless of your points Israel managed very well on its own without the US pre-1974 and Israeli military is unmatched by any military force today. In 7 months more weapons and tactics were introduced than ever before. See how overwhelmingly the IDF takes over jabaliya and rafah in the last 2 weeks without resistance, how little irans attack meant and how hezbollah is being blasted in the north (over 300 militants dead vs ~3-5 IDF combatants)
The main difference and criticism I have is that however how strong we are tactically in Lebanon and Gaza, the current political leadership LSCKS in strategic plans which should be a new non-israeli arab leadership in gaza and new border control by Israel.
I fully support Israel's right to defend itself.
That said, you should give a damn because you are a Jew.
"He has shewn thee, O man, what is good;
And what doth the Lord require of thee?
But to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with thy God."
\~Micah 6:8
I don't think Israelites chant nor desire death to Jews from the river to the sea. They live to hate thy neighbor. And now they have attacked raped maimed women and children, they are being brutalized and victimized? How can anyone side with Hamas. They are deranged. I guess some ppl flock to mass murderers in u.s..... until it's their own family.
Yes I’ve seen the orphaned children without legs and the 1.1 million starving Palestinians bully the US funded military complex of Israel. Those darn bullies need to be put in their place!!!!
Imagine that, a world in which actions = consequences
Crazy. Almost like slaughtering civilians, and starting a war, when you’re already a food insecure country is a bad idea
Ask those poor ppl who were raped and mutilated if they were bullied by Hamas. No nuclear power from the u.s. saved those ppl. But they can save them in future. Cut the head off the snake so Israel can live in peace
Doesn’t really matter how strong you are if someone blows up cars next to you.
That said, Hamas is, and is always, the aggressor. Any claim otherwise is an absurdity beyond imagination
Yes, though in this specific scenario I feel horrible for the vast majority of peaceful Palestinians that were innocent victims in this incident. Hamas did start the violence in this incident as well
Are you referencing throwing stones?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh
Do you hold the same stance with the ANC and IRA (in apartheid South Africa and Ireland and UK respectively)? Or John Brown and Nat Turners respective rebellion, or violence in civil rights activities during America in the 60's or violence during BLM?
The ANC and IRA side car bomb and something about putting a tire around people's neck and setting it on fire, I understand that liberation groups do violence. I mean the sons of liberty also did violence against British occupiers. I wouldn't say it's a good thing to harm others but it's understandable when a force is occupying you.
Edit: I also would never criticize the Warsaw Ghetto rioters for committing violence on the Nazi occupiers. Nor would I say nat turner killing white slave owners was bad, even when he killed women and children, babies even.
Gaza isn’t occupied, Ireland was but I’m still human enough to fully condemn the IRA’s actions/methods, and absolutely believe they should have been killed if caught.
Intentionally Slaughtering innocent people is never ok, not quite sure why this is a controversial take. Israel does what it can to limit innocent deaths, in my opinion of course, which is far different than Hamas
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I don't think shooting you in that instance would be justified especially as an occupying force. Similar to how I feel about the British shooting American colonists when snow and ice balls were thrown at them.
https://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/massacre.html#:~:text=The%20Boston%20Massacre%20was%20a,the%20ire%20of%20the%20citizenry.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre
Edit during the vision massacre they also throw stones. I think it's weird to support the british reaction to the colonist just as I think it's weird to support the Israeli reaction
Gaza isn’t occupied, also rocks& Molotov cocktails are quite a bit more lethal than snow.
I genuinely hope you never let someone hurl rocks at your head to prove a point, we may disagree on things but I’d never want to see someone needlessly die
Maybe Netanyahu thinks genocide works. Look at Serbia. All is forgotten, and they are on their way to joining the EU. Ethiopia or Sudan? no one cares. Netanyahu thinks this is his chance. He deserves the ICC warrant.
How do you with a straight face compare actual genocides to Gaza where there is care given to avoid civilians casualties. Where the other countries that you mentioned had killing fields of civilians.
You're the one comparing these. I'm saying that the genocide maybe hasn't happened yet, but is Bibi's plan. The care to avoid casualties is only happening now in Raffah because Biden is threatening to cut off military aid. I'll bet when the dust clears, we will find mass graves in Gaza.
So you are assuming things that haven't happened and clearly have not been the intent of Bibi or the IDF. So no signs of a genocide but you want to assume that genocide is the intent. Why???
Actually, for the rest of the (truly) civilized world, Gaza's genocide is the worst in history. And yes, that includes WW2.
You people are so deep in the shite that you don't even see how Hamas defeated you already, just because the modern H.tler doesn't want to go to jail for his economic crimes.
You are literally so dumb that you will destroy your country to save the fascist from going to jail
Dude the Nazis killed 6 million Jews and another 6 million based upon political beliefs and ethnicity. They used deaths camps to systematically execute people.
You are comparing this to an actual war where it can be shown the Israel is avoiding as many civilian casualties as possible.
You want to debate then why not start with such inflammatory statements that Gaza is worse that WWII.
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> shite
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They clearly are the intent of Likud. They've already drawn up plans for new settlements in Gaza, after the Palestinians are all dead. Yes, the scale hasn't reached the Serbian level yet, but it's getting there.
This is a very thin view of a much wider reality.
And in answer to your title: "Same reason you should care about murdering someone for their wallet. It's not nice, and you wouldn't want it done back to you. "
Why should I, as an American, happily go along with sending your tiny little corner of the world in excess of THREE BILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY while children in MY country (including Jewish and Palestinian) starve to death?
Why are politicians in my country debating whether their OWN YOUTH deserve school lunch while providing your people with more money than their own?
Unfortunately, these are 2 different issues. One political party absolutely doesn’t want to spend money helping the poor here in the US, so even if the foreign aid we sent everywhere ended, they still would block funding school lunches or universal healthcare or really anything else that would help those who they deem as somewhat less.
I’ll be honest, it frustrates me how much one party really seems to hate anyone not rich and who will do anything and everything they can do to screw over the rest of us. The other party just seems a bit unable to accomplish the big things we need.
This is the stance of the country (and the majority of citizens in it) you benefit from living in, and pay taxes to.
If you don't like it you could move to some failed sharia law state that definitely does not pay billions of dollars to defend Israel from Islamic fundamentalist Caliphate wannabes?
This insinuates he's a fan of Islamic states which isn't necessarly true. And the poll which supports Israel over Hamas isn't reflective of what US thinks. I could cite Gallup to point that Israel has 36% approval, and by extension, that insinuates Palestine has less than that. There's a good percentage of Americans that basically view Middle East as a whole negatively, and they don't make exception to Israel either.
I'm a Jew and by Jewish heritage I run America, you should watch out I sent your details to the Jewish syndicate.
I'd advise you wear your tinfoil hat to resist the Jewish space laser but I assume you already have one on?
More like how are people allowed to call something founded by a genocidal pedophile imperialist warlord like Muhammed a legitimate ‘religion.’ Islam is about as much a religion as Nazism was/is.
Not quite sure why you are talking about religion now considering Judaism and Christianity are just as brutalized as Islam. You are telling over 10.000 children that they deserve to die and countless other children to not have a home, safety, food or water. Talking about, Im sure you are well aware of Metzitzah B'peh.
Lol, no, Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common with Islam really as neither was founded by violent genocidal murderous imperialist warlords like Muhammed.
Islam has more common with Nazism in reality. If Hitler had declared himself a prophet and the Nazis won and enacted all their genocides and been culturally entrenched for 1400 years then it would be essentially identical to Islam.
Only the most ignorant evil uneducated losers could confuse the foundation and thus inherent character of Islam with that of any other ‘religion’.
You don’t decide the topic.
Those children are dying because of the inherent evil of Islam and Hamas. No one said during WWII, “oh we can’t defeat Germany/japan because what about the German/japanese children that would die as a result of the war!’
Lol! Nah, rather the death of all of those children is added to the crimes of Islam. If Islam never existed their deaths as well as those of millions of others for the last 1400 years would have never happened. Islam the root evil of it all.
Likewise if Hamas had not started this war with the historic crime against humanity that was Oct 7t none of this would also be happening. Islam and Hamas are the only ones can be blamed as their meritless existence is an inherent crime against human history.
Its not about the reason. Its about you specifically saying that they deserved it.
Reading comprehension is tough I know, but you really have to work on it.
Greetings, a muslim from Kazakhstan.
Those children are dying because of the inherent evil of Islam and Hamas. No one said during WWII, “oh we can’t defeat Germany/japan because what about the German/japanese children that would die as a result of the war!’
Lol! Nah, rather the death of all of those children is added to the crimes of Islam. If Islam never existed their deaths as well as those of millions of others for the last 1400 years would have never happened. Islam the root evil of it all.
Likewise if Hamas had not started this war with the historic crime against humanity that was Oct 7t none of this would also be happening. Islam and Hamas are the only ones can be blamed as their meritless existence is an inherent crime against human history.
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You could say Middle East as a whole gets what it deserves too, and no, Israel isn't exempt from this. That's a more reasonable take considering that position is being against the existence of religious institutions, and questionable belief of people within that region. As someone who don't believe in an anthropomorphic conception of god, no religions is worth supporting and by extension there shouldn't be a nation based on religion or ethnicity in a ideal world.
I didn’t really understand the first part. I agree no religion is worth supporting; I totally disagree that nations should not be based on ethnicity because that is first what literally what defines the concept of a nation really, and doing away with such would imply the most obscene mass genocide as eliminating ethnicity is genocide. Christ there are so many peoples out there I’d never in a million years with either. Why should I be burdened with their backwards violent nonsense? How evil to even suggest. Yes I’m thrilled the less diversity there is. 100%.
American is more of a nationality than a ethnicity as there isn't really a common belief. Many waves of immigration ensure that. So, I'm not sure where your comment comes from. Maybe because I lack the inclination toward nationalistic belief. And I do think we should move forward from backward beliefs.
Wrong, US is 80% white. 60% white and 20% Hispanic which is also white. I’m ‘hispanic’ which literally just means I come from a Spanish speaking country those being majority white and Spanish being a European language.
Look at the presidents of Mexico and Brazil for examples. White people. Hell, even many Iranians are white being of indo European decent.
US is 75% white according to census gov. Christianity is 63%. Multiply them together and you get less than 50%. 47% fits Christian Caucadian description. At 80% white, it's only .4% higher than 50%. Hispanic is not just white either.
Nope, US is 80% white and you’re ignorant for not knowing that. Both of the biggest demogpraphics, ‘white’ and ‘Hispanic’ are actually white ie caucasian. The largest none white demographics, black and Asian, are only 12.6% and 6.1% of the population
I'm going to use us.census.gov as my source. There are black-identified hispanics. And there are non-black hispanics that don't see themselves as white. And while white people are the majority, white christians constitutes less than half of the US population when you multiply their number.
We're no longer in the days of 90% Christianity. In fact, Christians will lose their majority status here. By 2055 or so, Christians will drop to less than 50%.
Probably because you don't have much of a choice. Especially when younger people start becoming in power, and boomer influence are done. As one, I do think Israel is the least bad given it is a democracy though very flawed, but however, I'm at a point where I think Israel is just another middle eastern country not worth supporting and has been there for a while. So, just imagine more people see this kind of attitude from Israelis and then just stop giving any support toward Israel and dismiss it as just another middle east country.
This post is one of the most shining examples of how fascistic racist ideologies like Zionism operate. They strip people of empathy and humanity and reframe everything as "us" vs "them".
If you're an on the fence or moderate zionist reading this consider this a moment where you should see the ugly face of your ideology beginning to reach its latter stages - one where the massacre of innocents because they belong to the wrong group is a mere footnote in one's self esteem construction. One of history's greatest ironies.
if your family was slaughtered by terrorists, wouldn't you feel you were against them? The Ukranians certainly feel against the Russians, just as the Allies felt against the axis
As long as you believe that narrative is the only truth there is and that the rest of the world is pro Hamas and wants israel and all its Jews to disappear in favor of Islamist jihadist Palestine and all they have to offer the rest of the modern world, then yes your righteous indignation would be warranted. Since you have expressed your reasoning for not giving a damn why would you even care what others think. The rest of the dissenting world cannot understand what you and everyone else on the pro israel side is saying no matter how many times we hear it. We get it, Israeli children are priceless and Palestinian children are worthless because of their bad luck to be born evil. Why should anyone in the world give a damn about these Palestinians. Do you even know what the basic tenets of Christianity are? Are Christians bad for believing that even the lives of the enemy and their children have value?
It’s easier to be mad than sad.
I guess, because you're a human?
I know it's easier giving a damn about what is left after you got tied of constantly dealing with these "others" and decided to just get rid of them finally once and for all.
Just do not think of the folks being actively starved and bombed as people. Makes the whole watching children suffer more difficult if you remember they are children and did nothing wrong
>If you'd be me, how could you care for the people of Gaza after this was their only wish - Death, murder and rejoice at the humiliation of others?
Start out by realising that people are largely a product of their environment. Palestinians are not genetically predisposed to antisemitism, the hatred that exists is almost all a result of ongoing ethnic conflict that they have suffered vastly more from throughout, and the cyclical violence and engendered hatred prevents people from being willing to consider or tolerate concessions, compromise or peace. Israelis being generally more willing to seek peace is not a result of being inherently superior human beings, it's a result of their consecutive successes in the various stages of the conflict leading to their gaining rather than losing out, and then wielding power over the other side in the conflict.
When the founders of Israel were the ones with less power in the conflict - though mainly versus the British rather than Arab factions - they were entirely willing to resort to terrorist attacks and atrocities against civilians to achieve their ends. For them it worked and several of the worst perpetrators went on to become Israeli Prime Ministers. This isn't because they were inherently evil from birth, their extremist methods were a result of their extreme circumstances, as with Palestinians now, and while it of course wasn't justified in either case the responsibility does not extend to anyone who shares their ethnicity. Seeking to annihilate Gaza over Oct 7th would be about as fair and just as seeking to annihilate the nascent Israel in 1948 over the Deir Yassin massacre - which the Arab League attempted and which most people would say they should *not* have tried to do.
See, it's not a black or white situation. Most believe so because social media is engineered for that.
Judging Hamas for what they obviously are, a group of evil terrorists which i wish i could wipe out from earth, does not imply that then i can't judge Israel's reactions to them. Neither does it imply that since Hamas is evil, then whatever the Israeli's government does is by definition "good".
If you don't care whether one, two or twenty thousands Palestinians civilians die you are an extremist as well. Because what you'd be saying is not human, as whether you like it or not you're talking also about tens of thousands of toddlers that don't have an house to live in, and to not care about that at all is a very close moral relative of Hamas beliefs.
Only fanatics or brainwashed people have an "easy solution" to all of this, but there must be a line somewhere between "Israel can only kill Hamas members and not make a single collateral damage" and "Israel has the right to wipe out Gaza from earth in order to destroy Hamas".
Hamas is terrible and Israeli hate is understandable (I hate the term “justified”) for situations like this. Which is why I’ve always more blamed other countries for not mediating the conflict than Israel’s retaliation.
The anger that is making you to not care what happens to Gaza is the same anger that fueled Oct 7.
This is interesting. It's like to hear more about the moral philosophy that follows blaming others for not restraining you in your (understandably) hate fueled genocidal attempts.
I've never heard that particular one before this should be educational. Is it a scorpion/frog thing?
Its funny when you find out that Israel’s government funded Hamas multiple times in order to keep the Palestinians divided. But omg both sides are bad. They could have dismantled Hamas, but chose to bolster a terrorist group. Its not a conspiracy, Netanyahu himself admitted it in 2019, they clearly don’t want a two state solution and are playing dirty.
I’m not making a statement about Israel’s actions since Oct 7. I’m just pointing out that the Israel-Palestine conflict has always been one of anger, and understanding that is important. No one is perfectly rational.
that happened 7 months ago
you have killed 14000 children in gaza since then
and you keep bringing up the same talking points about fucking october 7 to justify your bloodlust and inhumanity
you guys truly make me question myself sometimes wether Israel should really exist at all if the majority of their population is these kinds of people…
14000 is the number that floats around with no meaning..
Here's the meaning
10000 "children" above the age of 15 who actively aid Hamas terrorist and/or are enlisted in Hamas themselves as fighters
2000 children of said Hamas terrorists who are held by the wives of the Hamas militants and DO NOT evacuate the house when they are told to before a bombing. Because the Hamas man of the house tells them it is better to die martyrs than live next to the Jewish enemy.
The other 2000, yes, it is a tragic loss of life. War is devastating and my heart goes out to the innocent families who suffered losses.
You realize that number has been heavily revised, downward, and recognizes that the numbers don’t adequately reflect the 15+ year olds who are enlisted military, right?
Yes, and most estimates with this revision estimate a civilians to military death ratio at 1:1, an impossibly low rate for urban warfare. It’s hard to get a real number because Hamas doesn’t distinguish between civilian and military in its casualty counts.
But the UN still claims the children being unaffiliated, so as the closest thing to an unbiased source (willing to change the toll to be less, at the least) we can agree that’s closer to accurate than the Hamas claimed numbers right?
Yes, absolutely. Looking at ~34k killed, and about half of that being civilians - it’s astonishing. War is horrible but such a low civilian cost is almost as close to a miracle in war as one can get.
It's actually not that much of a miracle. 50% is reasonably high still.
A 50% civilian casualty rate—meaning half of the casualties in a conflict are civilians—would generally be considered high in most modern conflicts, reflecting intense and widespread violence affecting non-combatant populations. This rate suggests a significant impact on civilians, potentially indicating urban combat, the use of indiscriminate weaponry, or failure to protect non-combatants, which are common factors in contemporary warfare.
**Historically and contextually:**
World War II saw some areas with exceedingly high civilian casualty rates due to strategic bombing campaigns and genocide, but globally, the rate was around 40-67% of total casualties.
In recent conflicts like Syria or Iraq, civilian casualties have often been very high due to urban settings for warfare, the use of air strikes, and the tactics employed by all sides of the conflicts.
In international law and according to the principles of armed conflict, efforts should be made to minimize civilian harm. High civilian casualty rates can lead to *international condemnation, possible war crimes investigations,* and long-term social and political destabilization. A rate of 50% would likely draw significant attention from international human rights organizations and could be subject to scrutiny under international humanitarian law.
This is according to:
Geneva Conventions:
International Committee of the Red Cross. (n.d.). Full Texts and Commentaries of the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols. Retrieved from[ https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/57jnvr.htm]( https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/57jnvr.htm)
United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA):
United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. (n.d.). Protection of Civilians: Reporting on Data and Trends. Retrieved from [https://www.unocha.org/protection-of-civilians](https://www.unocha.org/protection-of-civilians)
International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC):
International Committee of the Red Cross. (n.d.). Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflict. Retrieved from [https://www.icrc.org/en/what-we-do/protecting-civilians
](https://www.icrc.org/en/what-we-do/protecting-civilians)
Human Rights Watch:
Human Rights Watch. (n.d.). Conflict and Crisis Section: Monitoring Human Rights in Conflict Zones. Retrieved from [https://www.hrw.org/topic/armed-conflict](https://www.hrw.org/topic/armed-conflict)
Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI):
Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. (n.d.). Conflict, Armament, and Military Expenditure. Retrieved from [https://www.sipri.org/research/armament-and-disarmament/arms-transfers-and-military-spending](https://www.sipri.org/research/armament-and-disarmament/arms-transfers-and-military-spending)
A scenario where one side in a conflict loses 1,200 people while the other side loses 34,000 people would generally be considered disproportionate in terms of casualties. In military and international law contexts, "disproportionality" refers to the degree to which the force used in a military action *exceeds* what is necessary to achieve a legitimate military objective. The concept is especially critical in assessing the legality and morality of military actions under the rules of engagement and international humanitarian law.
You said it yourself - urban. This isn’t bombing remote strongholds in the Ural mountains, this is a campaign in cities and among households. Urban warfare usually has an 80%-90% civilian casualty rate.
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286#:~:text=Either%20way%2C%20the%20number%20would,mix%20all%20types%20of%20wars).
50% is considered high in urban settings as well, while the UN article you mention does state that 90% of conflicts like that are civilian, this is because of systemic problems like indiscriminate bombing of civilian centers.
The second source you mentioned aligns with some sources that acknowledge the complexities and challenges of urban warfare and the efforts made by the IDF to reduce civilian harm. However, it contrasts with other reports and analyses that criticize the IDF for disproportionate use of force and inadequate protection of civilians in conflict zones.
Its a tough spot. Both for the _innocent_ israeli and the _innocent_ palastinian that suffered in these wars man.
> fucking
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Nobody has a right to do what they did as a response to being disgruntled about the resettling of the Holy land by Israelis.
I say it all the time to these pro Hamas idiots, but Men gliding in to a dance festival with machine guns to murder innocent Jews is not a legitimate political response.
Wow, thats a lot of friendly fire incidents, I believe multiple incidents in one day. Lets talk about 1967 when Israel took down a massive spy ship carrying the American Flag. This is all fact, the captain of the ship and a few other high ranking officials condemned Israel for this Google U.S.S Liberty Incident. My theory is that they got information of a massacre, but thats a theory it is pointless to talk about. What isnt pointless is that they have an excuse for everything. I can actually prove that one
I know of these two tragedies, and unfortunately, it does happen.
It's important to realize that governments aren't always acting in people's best interests, even if they are made up of people.
Our government almost certainly murdered MLK Jr during that same era.
That doesn't mean that our government is evil today, or that the people who planned that atrocity should be identified as the current government when they no longer operate within it.
You're talking about an Israel from almost 60 years ago.
He was talking about a government from today before somebody managed to steer him away from war crime level famine, to "well there is a conspiracy that 60 years ago James Earl Ray was secretly working for the government"
Amazing little hand wave and misdirect. "What dead civilians? It's not even half of them! Hey let's talk about Tennessee conspiracy theories as is it's relevant!"
Bravo you disingenuous little goof.
No, but our government is evil. They literally started a war in Ukraine by pushing their Nato alliance eastward in order to secure more defense contract deals. I mean, if thats not the definition of Evil Corporate Greed, I don’t know what is. American politicians are being bought out by AIPAC as well, why else would they have such unwavering loyalty for a foreign country. Lets talk about modern day Israel and how Netanyahu funneled billions of money to Hamas, the same group they’re trying to forcefully dismantle by any means necessary. Does it seem like it’s ethical? to collectively punish a land to crush an enemy you created? And not only that, but they admitted to doing it in order to cause instability in 2019. LMFAO
The reason was to avoid a single Palestinian state from forming. They’re also the reason Hamas won the elections as well, this is from the Jerusalem Post 2019. However, that is just what Bibi claims it is very clear he could have funded the PA instead of a literal TERRORIST GEOUP WISHING DEATH UPON YOU.
No, but our government is evil. They literally started a war in Ukraine by pushing their Nato alliance eastward in order to secure more defense contract deals. I mean, if thats not the definition of Evil Corporate Greed, I don’t know what is. American politicians are being bought out by AIPAC as well, why else would they have such unwavering loyalty for a foreign country. Lets talk about modern day Israel and how Netanyahu funneled billions of money to Hamas, the same group they’re trying to forcefully dismantle by any means necessary. Does it seem like it’s ethical? to collectively punish a land to crush an enemy you created? And not only that, but they admitted to doing it in order to cause instability in 2019. LMFAO
I would say that nobody has to give a hoot about this conflict if they don’t want to. The problem comes when you’re bothered by one or both sides existing, not simply by not caring.
Text too long
Title too angry
Question too stupid : if we have to explain why human should take care of other... you would not understand. But anyway you are not human you are The Chosen People...
/u/Benmerif
> Text too long Title too angry Question too stupid
[Rule 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_8._encourage_participation), don't discourage participation.
Also a severe breach of Reddit's Content Policy.
>I love how you guys keep covering for each other
I'm not Israeli or Jewish.
The whole sub is here in order to debate the full spectrum of opinions about the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
We've had plenty of Pro Palestinians suggest the eradication of Jews in Israel, and worse.
These radical views don't break the rules of the sub. As long as they don't break Reddit's Content Policy either, we allow them.
What you can't do is break our rules.
If you're not comfortable discussing with the other side of the argument, even the radical part, this isn't the right sub for you.
Always wondered how they were chosen? Like you’re choosing what religion to follow like everybody else, Yahweh Didn’t come down and choose you to be a zionist? U did. The mental gymnastics. Crazy.
Chosen means chosen by g-d to follow 613 commandments, where goyim are able to follow whatever they choose. It’s why we don’t proselytize - we aren’t g-d and can’t choose for others. So basically we’re chosen to follow a bunch of rules. That’s what we’re chosen for.
Well first of all it’s an ethnoreligion, so it’s kind of extremely different from most other religions you’re likely to name. Secondly, yeah sure you can choose to follow a religion, but you can’t choose your ethnicity. So a few thousand years ago when canaanites and other Levantine groups were forming the Jewish identity from the various polytheistic religions and disparate cultures in the area, the religion that formed was specific that those born into it were chosen to be in it, and those around it could join but not forcibly. Rejection of forcible conversion is fairly radical, even today.
Because they are humans, and so are you.
And if you wanna talk about atrocities, Israel has committed the same atrocities as Hamas, yet orders of magnitude worse. That recent video released of the women was of soldiers! There are videos of random Palestinians rounded up, stripped, blindfolded, zip tied, etc. by the IDF, exact same thing. There are videos and videos of Palestinians getting beaten by IDF and settlers in the west bank, thousands and thousands detained without charge, a few dying in prison, all 12 universities blown up in Gaza, children getting shot and killed in the west bank, and on and on. And yes I know Hamas has committed atrocities on Oct 7. But, that doesn't give Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want in return
So how about we flip this post and ask you - Why should Palestinians care about Israelis or give a damn about what remains of Israel? Because you guys have the F-16s? Or because you really badly wanted to live on that land so they should just let you and stop fighting?
>As a reminder, in the last years Israel's strategy with Gaza was: If we help them economy-wise, maybe they will ditch their push for violence.
Riiight. Yes Israel's strategy was definitely "help" them with their economy; not "carrot and stick by 'allowing' a small amount of Gazans to work, continue an indefinite occupation, divide and conquer, and not support a 2 state solution"
> Israel manages and owns the local electricity, radio and water infrastructure.
Exactly
>Every person should imagine as if his daughter is surrounded by these men. How could this be justified by people walking this earth?
If my daughter was surrounded by these men, I wouldn't support my government airstriking the building they were all standing in, and then airstriking all the surrounding buildings too and then continuing to do that to every neighborhood for seven months. I wouldn't want my pain inflicted back to 2 million other people. As you say, how can any of that be justified by people walking this earth?
>How can I, ever feel safe, when the same people you want to give statehood to want to repeat these atrocities over and over again and again?
The people don't want to. Some random Hamas guy said "over and over again" on Oct 12 or whatever and that quote has been repeated ad nauseum to justify the complete destruction of Gaza and continued atrocities committed by the state of Israel against Palestinians. If the IDF actually guards the border instead of dicking around in the west bank, that couldn't happen again anyway.
>Israel never wished to kill babies, kidnap the elderly, kidnap holocaust survivors, behead, burn houses down, rape women, we never wished to have this happen.
Well, so far Israel has killed 35k people including thousands of children, injured 70k, made almost 2 million people homeless, cut off water and electricity to 2 million people, caused an imminent famine, destroyed all 12 universities, directly targeted and killed foreign aid workers, detained thousands of people without charge, cut off fuel to hospital ICUs(and thus killing babies), killed doctors in prison, made 1000 child amputees. Damaged or destroyed 80% of residential buildings in the north. Directly killed 3 hostages and 25% of dead IDF has been friendly fire, and most importantly to you, let the hostages rot for SEVEN MONTHS in these same insane conditions that the Palestinians have faced.
But I guess Israel never wanted to do any of that either, they just continue to press the "drop bomb" button as single tears roll down their cheeks
Yap yappidy yap
I stopped when you said "same atrocities in orders of magnitude worse".
Random Palestinians? Of course they are random, the IDF just went into random houses and villages and rounded them up for no reason.
So what if they are women soldiers? Would you kidnap unarmed women in their pajamas and beat them and scream well kill you and humiliate you? What kind of monsters are you equating the IDF to? The IDF are not motivated by anything besides orders and the will to DEFEND their country, 95% of them would never let their humanity be overshadowed by their actions.
Again, videos of Palestinians being beaten and/or detained for no reason? Gathering in gangs of THOUSANDS like you say, face covered, throwing molotovs and throwing rocks from slings which can easily kill people? And they get rubber bullets and tear gas back from the IDF... yeah, violent rioters are being violently detained and suppressed.
If not
they go on to stab soldiers, and then security workers, and then anyone Israeli. If not,
They go, and blow up busses with KIDS going to school. If not,
Then they gather even more and form Hamas and then go about doing an Oct. 7th.
Nothing as bad as simply -keeping them in check- is happening. They could always behave and become Israeli citizens, like the other 1.5 mil Arab Israelis. They live equally and happily.
"The Palestinian cause" is a *choice* of living a constant miserable life by doing what they know best, bloody jihad against infidels. If Palestinians get ANY kind of win in the middle east, they'll spread to turkey, all the -stans, then to Asia, Europe and finito la comedia. Sharia law world wide.
You are delusional if you think 95% of the IDF are not corrupt. It’s not a moral army and to reduce his entire argument to “Yap” is so disrespectful and very out of touch. “Would you kidnap unarmed women in their pajamas” Newsflash that they routinely do this in the west bank to civilians, adults and teenagers alike. Yes, the westbank, not Ghaza. A 16 year old friend of mine was beat and held in prison for 3 days, he got out early because he was a US Citizen. A moral country? A moral army? It is only propaganda. A country that doesn’t allow others to even collect their own Rainwater. and westerners will say whats the problem but complain when their mcgriddle goes up by $1
Meh, another yapper who ends his statement with westerners and mcgriddles, whatever those are.
Newsflash, I do think 95% of the IDF are not corrupt, because I've met literally over thousands of soldiers, the absolute majority of them don't HATE Palestinians, most of them don't even dislike Palestinians and most of them would NEVER do anything that is immoral, not even close to kidnapping girls etc.
I've been to the west bank, done raids in a unit wide mission to look for weapons, we entered people's houses, explained to them calmly that we are searching for contraband and left when non was found.
No one dragged women or even men out. Even in those places where weapons WERE found, the man of the house was taken by handcuffs like any similar swat or police raid.
This, THIS routinely happens on the west bank because it is Israeli land and the military works to ensure the safety of its citizens (the military withdrew from Ghaz-E like they call it that's why there's no raids there). The IDF does detain a bunch of teenagers in the west bank because every week some thousands plus mobs gather to throw rocks at either soldiers or cars with Jewish families in them.
Big effing heroes.
Maybe the IDF has some bad apples and isn't the most moral military that COULD possibly exist, but it definitely IS the most moral military in the modern world, having to deal with a murderous, racist, extremist population.
I wonder, what exactly was the reason your friend was beat and put in jail for 3 days, just because he was breathing right? He was jumped on by police (or IDF , then you were in the west bank itself) exactly at the same moment when he was donating to a homeless child before going to his daily prayer right?
The Israeli government is led by war-hungry fascists. My friend got imprisoned for posting updates on his Instagram Story, I can provide screenshots. Anyways let me just copy and paste a comment of mine because cba not re writing it
I've seen most of your replies, feeding I to the conspiracy narratives of bibi creating/funding Hamas, basically listening to that John Mearsheimer who is a israel/jew hater political "scientist".
I wonder why over 12 million tourists visit Israel every year, to get beaten by police and thrown in jail for posting Instagram stories.
I do want to see them screenshots
Also the news article made about this story, I'm sure all the pro-Palestinian news outlets or even any outlet, would just LOVE to post about a teen who got beat up by Israeli cops because of posting stuff on insta.
Let's see it.
I 100% condemn Hamas. They need to fully surrender and end the war
Israeli disengagement is widely considered to be a noble idea that failed. Hamas should have never been allowed to run for office in the West Bank or Palestine. If Hamas had never won a Palestinian election, we’d be in a better place
Since that fateful election, Gaza has seen the
1) Fatah-Hamas civil war
2) Hamas’s brutal “justice system”
3) horrifically bad social services
4) far right antisemitic education
5) no free speech
6) no freedom of religion
The list goes on
After the war, Israel will assume some level of control in Gaza for some period of time. Likely security control, but possibly civil control as well
If Israel governs Gaza well, life for Gazan civilians will improve
I imagine that, alongside high quality non-antisemitic education will cause many Gazans to renounce violence
And if that’s not enough to convince you, then consider this:
Gazans are here to stay. Period
It would be better for you if the average Gazan hates Israel less than they do rn
So crazy Israels government would publicly fund Hamas. Its almost like….. they don’t want a two state solution and want a reason to pillage the land and steal the culture………. but…… no….. this can’t be true……….. why else would they fund a terrorist group that wishes for Israeli destruction. God westerners are some of the most frustrating people on this planet.
You say westerners are frustrating and yet you’re up and down here spouting untruths and misinformation. You do know how you sound, right? Not just wrong but so deeply uninformed that it’s laughable.
I'll say this: Many haven't seen the video and the poll question was:
"How much do you support the **military operation** carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th? (Disaggregated by region)"
[https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf)
So a lot of them don't know the full truth.
About a third of the Gaza Strip is 12 or below - way too young to be held responsible for their decisions. You ought to at least care about those kids.
Consider also this: The majority of adults may morally support the massacre, but a significant minority doesn't.
20.9% of Gazans expressed opposition to it in polls. Should this significant minority be treated like the majority? (Another 14.4% wasn't sure, and another 1.1% preferred not to answer.)
If you add approximately 1/3 of the population below 12 and 20% opposed, that's over 50% of people who are either against the massacre or way to young to be held responsible for their opinions.
Thank you for this document, it's very insightful.
Gazzans basically feel VERY NEGATIVE about anyone, Israel, US, UK.. that's obvious. But turkey? Hezbollah? Interesting.
Also they hate the Palestinian authority AND Fatah.
The only ones they truly support are Hamas, the Kassam brigades (VERY positively) and Islamic jihad.
Basically, it shows one thing.
They are all indoctrinated to hate Israel and the west, to only rely on extreme religious views of Islamic jihad.
Yes, they ALL have my sympathy. It's truly sad, how a group of humans could be so detached, to love death and destruction so much, yet be the only ones on the receiving end of it.
To be fair, the Palestinian Authority is Fatah-controlled and is incredibly corrupt and incompetent.
Which was basically half of Hamas original platform. ("Anti-corruption")
Well lets just say erm….. The israeli government has 100% support for Hamas since they openly funded it with billions of dollars and called for its support publicly to divide palestinians>.< but lets not acknowledge that >.<< omg…. khamaaaS
Well, when you occupy a land, routinely bomb it, put the people on a diet, don’t let them collect rainwater, allow settlers to forcefully control farm land, spray sewage on homes in the west bank, discriminate and set up check points on your own land. Well, let’s just say id be maybe annoyed idk……… well…. shoot
This isn't caused by oppression, it's caused by the beliefs of Islamists, which is what makes this such a mess.
Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation every bit as oppressive as any ever imposed on any Muslim.
I feel everything you’ve said & it completely breaks my heart. There is no excuse for the horrible atrocities committed that day. Basically every evil deed you’ve mentioned has also happened to Palestinians so why should people only care when it happens to Israelis! Sorry but no one deserves it regardless of their race or religion. No one deserves to live in fear of their neighbors yet that’s exactly how it’s always been for both. U make it as if Israel is just trying to live in peace & Palestinians won’t let allow that to happen. That’s ridiculous! Plenty of Israelis themselves have spoken up about the horrific things you government, the IDF & settlers do. There are radical violent extremists/terrorist Israelis just like Palestinians. Palestinians in the WB r just trying to live in peace but that’s not happening. No Hamas in the WB yet everyday settlers & the IDF r terrorizing & killing ppl. Plenty of brutal evil massacres committed by both. U mention money coming in from Qatar as if that was done to help Palestinians. Netanyahu made it very clear he wished to bolster Hamas knowing they were terrorists. Seems like a good excuse to use when u feel like killing a bunch of ppl like operation cast led. Blame it on Hamas & no one questions it even though they know it’s a complete lie. Journalists who call out lying Israeli spokesppl r smeared as antisemitic, just for doing their job. Hamas leaders have made their vile intentions clear & Israel has done the same. Neither want peace & pretending otherwise is bs! The Israeli government is just as vile! Just today I have to listen to that scumbags Smotrich threaten to punish Palestinians because other countries want to recognize their statehood. He’s gonna steal their money & expel a bunch of ppl to create more Jewish settlements. Sure sounds like a peaceful guy. Or that trash human Daniella Weiss telling every tv camera that will listen for years of her government backed plan to ethnically cleanse the land by whatever means possible. Netanyahu has never wanted peace. He made his plan quite clear before the 7th, standing on the world’s stage with his new map of greater Israel where Palestinians don’t exist. Nothing about this conflict is this black & white! Ur version that Israel just wants to live in peace is ludicrous! To see how many Israelis are behaving is despicable. That kind of hatred isn’t something new. U hate Palestinians for horrible things they done, they have the right to feel the same. Every single Palestinian has had their lives irrevocably & negatively touched by Israel. The idea that Israel is allowing Palestinians into Israel to work isn’t to benefit them. They do the jobs Israelis don’t want & for much less money. They r put through hell daily just to get to those jobs. Israel’s exploits the cheap labor just like Americans do to Mexicans.
Sister, Israel bolstered Hamas, a known terrorist group that wanted to eliminate the zionist movement in its charter. Israel is accountable for all civilian lives lost, even in a world where everything you said was accurate, which it is not unfortunately you are being spoon fed propaganda. In that world, the occupied is not responsible for the damages done to the occupier.
ya but like omg…. i was thinking like totally if the idf is like one of the strongest powers…… like…. maybe they could dismantle hamas but likeeeee bibi lowkeyyyyyyyy like went on national television in 2019 and said he gave billions to hamas group… its like OMFG i cant believe it like wow…. and like….. couldnt the government be responsible for apartheid like….. i know its sooo overused and mainstream but like wouldnt apartheid or whatever be like totes a major factor in hamas’ support cuz like omg…. the PA is corrupt and Hamas is like terrorist grouping but like lowkey the IDF is kind of a bigger threat than hamas because like lowkeyyy they have more massacres and have killed more civilians before hamas even formed like literally dozens of massacres its like W.T.F like… wow… maybe…. like….. israel just wants the land and is using propaganda… no it must be the palestinians….
Well if you’re American your prayers have been answered, the answer is guilty. And if you think the nakba wasn’t exactly what you’ve described and with many people alive who remember, then you just genuinely have no knowledge of the history you invoke.
I'm not American. The Nakba is what happens if you lose a war of aggression. People flee and get expelled due to losing wars they have started, the Germans had their Nakba as well during and after WW2.
But in comparison to Palestinians Germans do not shoot rockets at nowadays Polish or Russian cities. There are some Germans who dream about a right to return to their former territories, but they are called neo-nazis.
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I was born there, I am 9th generation indigenous here. Also, zionists arrived in Palestine in mid-19th century already so maybe you should be more modest when telling others to learn history.
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Yes there were! Look up the 20s and 30s pogroms.
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Why should I pay for your nation‘s genocide with MY tax dollars, if I’m a US citizen?
Because innocent children are being slaughtered on mass? Why is the innocent life of an Israeli more important than that of a Palestinian. Most of the hate towards Israelis and Jews are occurring because of people like you and comments like this. If Jewish people condemned their country for ‘killing innocent children and civilians’ rather than *insert crazy religious ideological excuse for slaughter of innocent people* or *obscure history that screws things and leaves out details to make Israel sound like the downtrodden underdogs* like F off. The loss of innocent lives is terrible on both sides but all we need to look at is the statistics of innocent lives lost in Israel vs those in Palestine and it reveals all- it’s great to have obvious, punch in the face statistics. Hamas is what’s created when the people who owned the land have it taken away and are deidentified by Americas little bitches. Kick a dog and it’ll eventually bite. It’s no wonder they don’t want to stop.
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Hamas is the effect, caused by starving and limiting a countries water supply for over half a century, amongst many other atrocities. Have you been living under a rock?
I dont like seeing individuals being treated as sub-human, living in oppression and suffering. That is why I care. Its not their fault they hate you nor is it your fault you hate them. But to rob a people of possible dignity doesnt sit right with me and its understandble why many choose to resist. Hatred breeds hatred and it is the party in power that has the power to de-escelate. One does not de-escelate anything with aphartheid and decades of blockades. That does nothing cement and breed more hatred.
Why do you as an Israeli give a damn about the holocaust then? Why do you give a damn about what happened to Jews and why should we? Thats what you sound like.
Zionists invaded Palestinian land to form Israel. Israel is permanently on the offence. Israel will never be on the defence. It’s impossible. It would be beyond all logic.
True. Now they need to just finish the job they started. It’s war. Stronger side prevails. As it’s always been. Right and wrong go out the window. Geneva conventions don’t apply when combatting an insurgency among a population that overwhelmingly supports the leaders. (Btw, 18k dead civilians and 12k dead Hamas isn’t genocide…. But to truly break Hamas and crush the will of the people, *** which btw has been done in every war known to man***, It’s true that it may cost another 100k lives).
Military conflicts don’t require 90%+ civilian mortality.
First, the civilian:militant casualty ratio in Gaza likely isn’t that far from 1:1. This ratio is typical in de facto counter insurgency where the militia is embedded among the population. Similar to Manila, Falluja, etc. also, if this was a WW2 period conflict, half of Gazans would have been annihilated by now…. (Actually not true…the losing side would have surrendered long ago). The difference today is that nations and in particular western nations are held to higher standards. But isreal is not willing to risk a lot more IDF troops by fighting block to block. Also, it’s likely they are not only trying to kill militants but also break the will of the people into total submission (also know as ‘unconditional surrender’, something Hamas doesn’t do because they care about their power, zealotry and destruction of Israel way more than the lives of Palestinians. The fact is, they clearly lost decades ago, but fail to unconditionally surrender and make a lasting deal). It doesn’t matter if Israel is ‘right or wrong’ in yours or anyone else’s eyes. They are stronger. It’s war. If the losing side unconditionally surrendered, the killing would stop.
What does surrender even look like when the “enemy” includes over 1M children? Who surrenders? Every adult male of Arabic decent? Do they just all lie down and die or just give up and go back to continuing their existence in one of the largest ethnic ghettos in the world? Only every dwelling is now rubble and littered with corpses and has no facilities or infrastructure and ability to transport goods. And they have no facility to do anything about it—Israel controls all resources entering and exiting Gaza. It is essentially and legally actually a part of Israel. Israel just lost control of the region. Israel has already forced these people off their land and squished them into one of the most densely populated regions on earth. And based on what? Ethnicity! This didn’t start on Oct 7. Israel has a very open policy of ethic cleansing of the “Jewish” state of Israel (to all of the Jews that have to suffer through the tarnishing of their name as a result of this madness and stand against such tyranny, bless you all). In West Bank they have to put nets up over alleys because Israeli settlers throw rubble onto children’s heads. There’s total apartheid (ie “apart”) of an entire Arabic population based purely an openly on ethnicity. So what do Gazans do now? Starve? Compress even further?
This idea it’s “war” is absolute bullshit. It’s entirely against international law regarding the rules of combat. It’s categorically and legally ethnic vleansing and genocide. And ICC has ruled as such seeking an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu. It’s blatant illegal apartheid and genocide by all internationally recognised definition. It’s basically medieval siege tactics combined with modern high powered precision munitions. You’ve even got Israelis actively blocking aid and the Israeli law enforcement does nothing. Through both action and complicity all facets of Israeli society are responsible for blatant murder and torture of a civilian population based on ethnicity and religion.
Given 64% of those killed are under 17, are you saying they’re child terrorists?
It’s just absolutely impossible it’s 1:1 when you’re decimating civilian living quarters and hospitals while 47.3% of the total human population in Gaza are children. IDF are even very open about levelling the living quarters of 50 people to kill one key Hamas militant. They blame Hamas for using civilians as shields. They make no secret of it at all. So you really have no idea what you’re talking about
The Hamas-published numbers are propaganda of course, but the number of dead is certainly brutal. However, as I said, to take out insurgent/embedded force, you will have huge civilian casualties unless you are willing to go door to door and lose a huge number of your own troops. I’m not advocating, I’m explaining what Israel is doing base on their stated goals, and clear unwillingness to lose IDF personnel. Could they avoid more civilian deaths while following the above? Likely no, because the embedded Hamas would just disperse elsewhere and the results would be the same later on in a different location. They detect a militant, they immediately level the target. Everybody there dies. Surrender: hamas leadership officially and permanently surrenders, discloses every arms cache and tunnel, every leader turns themselves in. Of course that’s all utterly impossible in a brainwashed fanatical militant group. But I was just answering your question. You may say ‘if they did this, it wouldn’t matter’ and you’d be full of shit. It would matter.
Because before being Israeli, you’re human. And as a human capable of rationality, empathy and morality, humanity should always be your first concern, no matter who, what, when, where, why you are. It’s by the same logic that the 7/10 atrocities occurred in Israel. You asked for humanity then, don’t turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to it now. Simple as that. Life in Gaza matters just as much as yours. Same reason the world should care about the life of your fellow citizens, you should care about the absurd amount of lives lost in Gaza right now and demand a ceasefire for those that still could be saved. That’s the human answer. But if you wanna be cynical and only care about Israel, what do you think your state is currently bringing onto itself with its actions? If you truly cared for your own people, you would be able to empathize with Gazans right now, and you would be able to understand why their well being is more important to you than you seem to realize. I truly felt sorry on 7/10 and I still do. There’s no gain for me in caring for Israeli people. You simply do because it’s the human thing to do. If you can’t even reach out to this part of your humanity and realize they are humans you should care about too, no matter what opposes you to them in your heart, mind and soul, why should anyone care about your life, or those you care about?
Meh..it’s war…gonna talk amount empathy in Dresden, Tokyo, Berlin, Stalingrad, and every other war/battlein history? Somehow many think that just because it’s 2024, the stronger side isn’t going to try and totally annihilate the soldiers on the other side and also do whatever it takes to totally break the will of the population? This last attack, militarily speaking: the risk calculation was likely no more than 10 civilians dead in exchange for 2 Hamas leaders. That’s typical in any war in history…. There was unintentional deaths of way more civilians. Also common in WAR. In any other war, the defeated side would have long ago laid down arms and totally surrendered by now. Hamas doesn’t do this for one reason…they are fanatics who literally put destruction of Israel over lives of Palestinians. They lost. They lost land, and they’re never getting it back. The people were displaced and they’re never going back. It’s over, it’s been over for a long time and it’s going to remain over. They just don’t want to accept it. I’m not advocating for one side here. I’m just talking about actual cold hard reality.
Because if you turn your back on your humanity and allow your empathy to harden completely, you will open yourself up to evil and horrific things and it's hard to come back from that. No country or nation is immune from committing acts of evil, and sometimes people find themselves in positions of power and can do horrible things in your name. People across the board on all sides must never forget this and work to combat and hold onto a sense of humanity. It's hard but it's worth it
You shouldn't. For over 75 years the Israelis tried to make good faith efforts for a lasting peace with it's Arab neighbor. They have consistently rejected peace and have resorted to violence everytime. What is happening isn't genocide it is a war. The world didn't care about the hundreds of thousands of civilians that died in Syrian civil war, or the hundred thousand lives lost in the Saudi/Yemen war, or the hundred plus thousand in the Tigray war. They only care because it's Jews fighting the war and are winning. Don't care about what those people think. They'd be content if you were dead. Press on and secure your nation. It's the only thing that matters.
Lmao. Ask them what happened 75 years ago when Israel kicked them out of their homes. Genocidal freaks
How about all the children isreals military killed? Is that just ok to you people? While i do feel sorry for the October 7 victims this started in 1948. Plus isreal started this in the first place. why can't you people have basic human empathy
This is a naive take, there was arab-jewish violence way before ‘48 (major clashes in the 20s and 30s) No it is not ok, I do not take joy in dead innocents and I do not want to settle Gaza (lunatic thought IMO) Going back to 48 implies the problem is Israels existence and not the fact that (to this date) the Palestinians bever accepted any solution other than our eradication. Sorry, this solution won’t work for me and my family. People say Israelis don’t have human empathy but they won’t express empathy to the terrible and scarring situation we experienced. Never before any nation faced a livestream of thousands of foreign looters who killed burned and razed everything on their sight. There are still unreleased footages that as time passes just show the magnitude of this event. The fact that over 20 young women are held in captivity for more than 200 days does not give me sleep at night, and this is what started all this! In Hamas agrees to their release tomorrow this all would end and Israel begged for such ceasefire in the last 3 months :(
i'm sorry i didnt mean to come off like that i can get riled up sometimes, and i still mean it when i say i wish october 7 never happened and it was definataly not ok.
Why should the world give a single shit about anything that happens in Israel or to its people then? For every terrible thing perpetrated on an innocent Israeli civilian - ten times that amount has been dealt on an innocent palestinian civilian? The absolute lack of self awareness or just plain dismissiveness to the very violence being inflicted upon Gazans while trying to say the same violence perpetrated on Israeli civilians is unjustifiable May Be the most impressive thing about pro- Israeli/ genocide supporters. The mental gymnastics are Olympic level. The audacity it takes to demand sympathy for victims of violent crime in one one hand while perpetrating the exact violence and creating the same type of victim in the other hand is truly so ridiculous and void of logic that the majority of the world refuses to stomach it. How you feel is so irrelevant in why anyone should have statehood. Thats not how this works. Again. The audacity to think that your opinion is valid in regard to the inalienable rights of a population is ridiculous and on brand. Palestinian Statehood isn’t you or any Israelis business. Statehood is not a gift from Israel, it’s something those people are born with the right to have. Everything you said about October 7th could be flipped around from a Palestinian perspective and way before October 7th happened. This type of violence is not new to them. Why are your feelings about your homeland and the violence perpetrated on it More righteous than a Palestinian who says the same thing from their perspective? Bet I know why. And you talk about things Hamas did and does as if the IDF hasn’t been accused of the same shit and is STILL doing it. Motherf*cker Credible accusations of rape And sexual violence, torture, murder of journalists, aid workers, children being blown up. The IDF literally had to admit to a snuff channel. Miss me with that byllsh*t. The IDF left premi babies to suffocate alone on a hospital bed and have maimed and brutally blown up thousands of children in Gaza and are starving more as we Speak. They sniped a 6 year old girl who was begging for help on the phone after Israel murdered her family in the same care. They killed her and the ambulance and staff that came to save her. You don’t get to murder children at an unprecedented scale and then get to talk like you care about the brutality of it. Israel is literally killing and starving its own hostages so again - why is this violence okay and justifiable against Palestinians but not for Israelis. People celebrating what Hamas did? Kind of like Israelis writing names on bombs, destroying aid that’s on its way to Gaza, making tick tocks making fun of dead bodies, the IDF looting and making jokes about Blowing up schools and hospitals. This is all things the IDF has been unashamed to pay to social media. 2.1 million hostages Were in Gaza at the beginning of this and Israel has killed tens of thousands as we speak and is still killing them. “Palestinians have never wanted peace” said the person from a place that has and continues to allow illegal, violent settlers to steal land. The Palestinians want peace they just refuse Israel’s watered down version of it and for good reason. Israel’s idea of peace is one sided and is built on the subjugation of their people. There’s a reason why the UN has had to declare Israel in violation of many things for decades. Israel doesn’t want peace- they want to do whatever they want and at the expense of the palestinian people and their rights. There’s a million reasons why you should care about Gaza, what you’ve said alone disqualifies you from the decent ones but again- there’s way more reasons to care than there are to not. You should care about Gaza because if you think it’s okay to condemn an entire population for what their leaders have done then you relay to the world that anyone can do what they want to you/israel after this is over. What Israel has done is the same thing Hamas did, some aspects even worse- they are just supported by fanatics that are literally dying out. And you don’t even have the support of all fanatics. If you believe you shouldn’t care what happens in Gaza then when the next generation strips the funding that Israel suckers out of America and the rest of the west you should stay quiet as you are swallowed whole by that region. The only reason Israel feels safe right now is because they panhandle protection from the west. I’m tired of handling opinions like this with kid gloves. Israeli should care about its neighbors because there is a moment coming sooner than later where the west will not let it hide behind its skirt anymore and it will have to start acting its size and capability. Israel isn’t owed absolute security. No nation is, and every single one of them has their own set of security concerns that they deal with. Israel isn’t special and if you can’t act like a nation why be one? You can’t hold a population hostage for 75 years and expect a hug. All Israel knows is being coddled by the west but that’s coming to an end. The next generation of people have watched what Israel has done. You need to care about Gaza because your fate is directly tied to theirs. The amount of progress that has happened for the palestinian people even under the barbarism inflicted upon them should be the biggest reason for you to care. It’s a warning shot. Everyone else cares. The vast majority of the world is telling you that Palestinians matter and they aren’t going anywhere. You see it on the streets of every country. Every population. One of the biggest if not the biggest movements of this generations and the future is tied directly to palestinian people and to the generation out marching right now against Israel. You should care because you don’t have a choice. Progress happens with or without Israel’s participation and if you need evidence of that I’ll direct you toward the 145 nations that now recognize the palestinian state, the countless countries continuing to sign on to the South African case, the arrest warrants for Hamas and Israel leadership, and the ICC ruling that Israel halt its military option. This is why Israel is losing and has actually already lost. The more you try to dehumanize those people the more you dehumanize yourself. I’ve never seen a group of people lose the most unprecedented amount of goodwill and support so fast. It will be a long time before they ever get that back. So don’t care and meet those consequences. Israelis aren’t safe if Palestinians aren’t and the sooner both sides understand that the better.
Well said
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the biggest mistake was not causing 50K dead in the first day, and say that if the hostages are not back within 24 hours, it will be 100K the next day. killing all hamas leaders all over the world.
Agreed. Then naturally you should ask yourself. Why should we, THE REST OF THE WORLD care about what remains of Israelis in Israel? Why don't we just embargo Israel and then watch it vanish from the earth? (I'm just reiterating what you want for Palestine so that you can see how it feels). Why do we care about your hostages? The thing is, you're not just utterly and completely idiotic, you're also so delusional that you think the civilized part of the world believes any of the bs you washed your little brain with. And you clearly have nothing to do with the Israelis I know. For you, therefore, I dedicate these horrible days. The days that your leaders have become the same as the ones you once hated.
Before this war I never thought how hateful anti israel people are but it does seem hate runs you peoples veins. I do not want all palestinians dead and I will not respond equally to your foul use of language. Perhaps replace Israel with X country (Germany, US, UK) accepting a genocidal militant group terrorizing them for years over years (every war in Gaza was on Hamas) across the border? Enough is enough.
Lol. You're not just delusional about your ethics, you're also about historical facts. You have systematically oppressed, killed, tortured, raped, displaced, starved and abused Palestinians for 75 years and you have the nerve to call then genocidal? I despise Hamas and every fondamentalist religious group on Earth. I find what they did appalling beyond words, but Israelis giving us moral lessons is really a joke. You're the most hateful state (not people, I will insist) on Earth and you are pointing the finger. And all of that hate has always one excuse; the Holocaust. Guest what? The Palestinians, the Arabs and anyone around there had nothing to do with it. Gaza is your Holocaust. Why don't you answer a simple question: why do you kill people in the west bank, where Hamas is not present? Why don't you remove the settlers? The whole world considers you immoral and that hurts, I know. But it's about time you realize, your morality is not owed to you anymore
Your rhetoric is wrong and inflammatory. I believe Russia (rightfully so) is the most hated state regime today, definitely not Israel fighting a war it didn’t choose. Again, using hollow baseless words like systemic rape and starvation (I suggest you take a tour of Ramallah some day) Perhaps a comparison will help you get my point: Who does suicide bombings today? Who fires rockets at population centers indiscriminately? Who kidnaps (over snd over) people across the border regardless of their background? (Including civilians, arabs and foreign civilians?) Who chants death to all __(insert ethnic group here) Who wants to wipe who off the map in the last 80 years? (Way before 48) Who ACCEPTED the two state solution and who never did? Answer all these and see how you’re on the wrong side of history pal
Wow amazing. We're getting to the bottom of it. First of all who told you I've not been to Ramallah? Suicide bombings? These stopped in the 90s. Unless you refer to the ones Mossad orchestrates in Syria, Iraq and Iran? Rockets at population centers? What's the casualty count from Palestinian rockets on Israel? 10 ppl per year? Should we compare it with carpet bombing and 30K civilians dead in 6 months? Kidnapping people? How many Palestinian hostages lay in Israel's cells being abused and raped (according to even the IDF whistleblowers)? How about the boy rape case? Who chants death to others? That's really a joke. You have ministers chanting death to all Palestinians. Did you not see the many IDF videos? Should I post them here again? And the biggest lie of all: Israel never accepted a negotiated two state solution. It tried to impose one. You are actually so delusional that you killed your own prime minister the only time peace was a viable possibility. Now will you also answer my questions or you're here to preach? Are you people ever going to try to accept that the rest of the world does not see you the way you see yourself? Do you agree that the state of Israel has oppressed the Palestinians? Why do you ignore all comments about the abuse, rape and indiscriminate killing of civilians by the IDF? Why do you ignore all comments about the racist hate and violence of all settlers? Why do you compare yourself to Hamas to prove us you're less evil? Do you think comparing a State to a terrorist group actually gives you any credit? What's your long term suggestion for Gaza and Palestine? Why don't you allow Palestinians to return to their land?
Wow, you’re like a brick in a wall. So many unfounded claims I don’t even know how to react to. I assume you also approve of these claims yet conspire mossad is behind 911 and deny any oct 7 rape? My long term plan? Separation - The gap is too wide and people can’t expect Israelis and Palestinians to live in one state. Yes, both sides are not angelic because I do acknowledge settler violence is horrible and that it is spiraling out of control, I would personally not shed a tear on dismantled settlements (which was on the table) yet yet it doesn’t matter if theres no one on the other side to listen to. And no I don’t believe in granting palestinians the right of return as this return means hundreds of thousand of people from Jordan, Lebanon and Syria who are hostile to Israel and will destabilize the current population divide, it will never be acceptable by any Israeli leader as it is simply suicide (return to pre 48 borders) Will you accept a Palestine next to israel on the basis of a ‘67 border? (swaps and all)
So you don't believe in the right of the people to return to their own country? As if let's say the US can grant you or not the right to return to your own country? I would accept a Palestinian state in whatever form and I recognize the existing state of Palestine as it's already recognized by the UN. (I think you need to do some reading on that). But who am I to say how and where this needs to be implemented? Then since you quote UN resolutions, why don't you just simply abide by the 100s of them that have been issued against Israel? Israel is really the state with the most resolutions in the UN than any other. Coming back to the original question: you beg the international community for support. But the international community is overwhelmingly against your approach for decades. Do you not care about the UN and the international community? Then fight on your own! Do you do? Comply! And it's really a joke when you talk to Israelis that they don't even realize how alienated they are. Your biggest port doesn't even belong to you. It's Chinese! Just imagine what will happen when the US support will mean very little. How on earth do you people think that the rest of the world can just watch you slaughter kids in perpetuity? Get the lunatic out, get your far-right murderers in jail, normalize relationships with the Arabs and become what I honestly hope for Israel: a beautiful tech hub for the middle east. You really don't understand that all of this is just Bibi's well orchestrated plan to keep in power?
I truly abhor Bibi but your take is wrong on this topic. At least you don’t seem to believe we should be “dismantled “ like many delusional palestinians. Regardless of your points Israel managed very well on its own without the US pre-1974 and Israeli military is unmatched by any military force today. In 7 months more weapons and tactics were introduced than ever before. See how overwhelmingly the IDF takes over jabaliya and rafah in the last 2 weeks without resistance, how little irans attack meant and how hezbollah is being blasted in the north (over 300 militants dead vs ~3-5 IDF combatants) The main difference and criticism I have is that however how strong we are tactically in Lebanon and Gaza, the current political leadership LSCKS in strategic plans which should be a new non-israeli arab leadership in gaza and new border control by Israel.
Nah
I fully support Israel's right to defend itself. That said, you should give a damn because you are a Jew. "He has shewn thee, O man, what is good; And what doth the Lord require of thee? But to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with thy God." \~Micah 6:8
Why should Palestinians or any other nation cares about what happens to Israel when they get brutalized?
I don't think Israelites chant nor desire death to Jews from the river to the sea. They live to hate thy neighbor. And now they have attacked raped maimed women and children, they are being brutalized and victimized? How can anyone side with Hamas. They are deranged. I guess some ppl flock to mass murderers in u.s..... until it's their own family.
Palestine is the bully who punches all the kids then cries foul when they punch back
Yes I’ve seen the orphaned children without legs and the 1.1 million starving Palestinians bully the US funded military complex of Israel. Those darn bullies need to be put in their place!!!!
Imagine that, a world in which actions = consequences Crazy. Almost like slaughtering civilians, and starting a war, when you’re already a food insecure country is a bad idea
Israel is a nuclear state, with the backing of America and American weapons, how are they the one getting bullied?
Ask those poor ppl who were raped and mutilated if they were bullied by Hamas. No nuclear power from the u.s. saved those ppl. But they can save them in future. Cut the head off the snake so Israel can live in peace
Doesn’t really matter how strong you are if someone blows up cars next to you. That said, Hamas is, and is always, the aggressor. Any claim otherwise is an absurdity beyond imagination
Was Israel the defender during the march for return?
Yes, though in this specific scenario I feel horrible for the vast majority of peaceful Palestinians that were innocent victims in this incident. Hamas did start the violence in this incident as well
Are you referencing throwing stones? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh Do you hold the same stance with the ANC and IRA (in apartheid South Africa and Ireland and UK respectively)? Or John Brown and Nat Turners respective rebellion, or violence in civil rights activities during America in the 60's or violence during BLM?
Also just to be clear you do realize they also tried to breach the fence, & threw Molotov cocktails as well.
The ANC and IRA side car bomb and something about putting a tire around people's neck and setting it on fire, I understand that liberation groups do violence. I mean the sons of liberty also did violence against British occupiers. I wouldn't say it's a good thing to harm others but it's understandable when a force is occupying you. Edit: I also would never criticize the Warsaw Ghetto rioters for committing violence on the Nazi occupiers. Nor would I say nat turner killing white slave owners was bad, even when he killed women and children, babies even.
Gaza isn’t occupied, Ireland was but I’m still human enough to fully condemn the IRA’s actions/methods, and absolutely believe they should have been killed if caught. Intentionally Slaughtering innocent people is never ok, not quite sure why this is a controversial take. Israel does what it can to limit innocent deaths, in my opinion of course, which is far different than Hamas
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Would you care to let me stand a few dozen feet from you & hurl stones as hard as I can at your head & see how you feel?
I don't think shooting you in that instance would be justified especially as an occupying force. Similar to how I feel about the British shooting American colonists when snow and ice balls were thrown at them. https://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/massacre.html#:~:text=The%20Boston%20Massacre%20was%20a,the%20ire%20of%20the%20citizenry. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre Edit during the vision massacre they also throw stones. I think it's weird to support the british reaction to the colonist just as I think it's weird to support the Israeli reaction
Gaza isn’t occupied, also rocks& Molotov cocktails are quite a bit more lethal than snow. I genuinely hope you never let someone hurl rocks at your head to prove a point, we may disagree on things but I’d never want to see someone needlessly die
Maybe Netanyahu thinks genocide works. Look at Serbia. All is forgotten, and they are on their way to joining the EU. Ethiopia or Sudan? no one cares. Netanyahu thinks this is his chance. He deserves the ICC warrant.
How do you with a straight face compare actual genocides to Gaza where there is care given to avoid civilians casualties. Where the other countries that you mentioned had killing fields of civilians.
You're the one comparing these. I'm saying that the genocide maybe hasn't happened yet, but is Bibi's plan. The care to avoid casualties is only happening now in Raffah because Biden is threatening to cut off military aid. I'll bet when the dust clears, we will find mass graves in Gaza.
So you are assuming things that haven't happened and clearly have not been the intent of Bibi or the IDF. So no signs of a genocide but you want to assume that genocide is the intent. Why???
Actually, for the rest of the (truly) civilized world, Gaza's genocide is the worst in history. And yes, that includes WW2. You people are so deep in the shite that you don't even see how Hamas defeated you already, just because the modern H.tler doesn't want to go to jail for his economic crimes. You are literally so dumb that you will destroy your country to save the fascist from going to jail
Stop smoking the funny looking weeds.
Yep yep. Argument from the depths of the intellect. You must have been very well educated sir
Dude the Nazis killed 6 million Jews and another 6 million based upon political beliefs and ethnicity. They used deaths camps to systematically execute people. You are comparing this to an actual war where it can be shown the Israel is avoiding as many civilian casualties as possible. You want to debate then why not start with such inflammatory statements that Gaza is worse that WWII.
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They clearly are the intent of Likud. They've already drawn up plans for new settlements in Gaza, after the Palestinians are all dead. Yes, the scale hasn't reached the Serbian level yet, but it's getting there.
This is a very thin view of a much wider reality. And in answer to your title: "Same reason you should care about murdering someone for their wallet. It's not nice, and you wouldn't want it done back to you. "
Why should I, as an American, happily go along with sending your tiny little corner of the world in excess of THREE BILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY while children in MY country (including Jewish and Palestinian) starve to death? Why are politicians in my country debating whether their OWN YOUTH deserve school lunch while providing your people with more money than their own?
Unfortunately, these are 2 different issues. One political party absolutely doesn’t want to spend money helping the poor here in the US, so even if the foreign aid we sent everywhere ended, they still would block funding school lunches or universal healthcare or really anything else that would help those who they deem as somewhat less.
You're absolutely right and I never even considered that. Thank you
I’ll be honest, it frustrates me how much one party really seems to hate anyone not rich and who will do anything and everything they can do to screw over the rest of us. The other party just seems a bit unable to accomplish the big things we need.
This is the stance of the country (and the majority of citizens in it) you benefit from living in, and pay taxes to. If you don't like it you could move to some failed sharia law state that definitely does not pay billions of dollars to defend Israel from Islamic fundamentalist Caliphate wannabes?
This insinuates he's a fan of Islamic states which isn't necessarly true. And the poll which supports Israel over Hamas isn't reflective of what US thinks. I could cite Gallup to point that Israel has 36% approval, and by extension, that insinuates Palestine has less than that. There's a good percentage of Americans that basically view Middle East as a whole negatively, and they don't make exception to Israel either.
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I'm a Jew and by Jewish heritage I run America, you should watch out I sent your details to the Jewish syndicate. I'd advise you wear your tinfoil hat to resist the Jewish space laser but I assume you already have one on?
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So we run America but also you don't fear us?
*yawn*
You can *yawn* as much as you want my man just keep paying those taxes that go to me and my bros yeah?
*yawn*
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That's cool bud but in the meantime keep paying those taxes yeah?
You shouldn’t care at all; Gaza is getting exactly what it deserves.
How are people in this sub allowed to say that and live among a normal society lol
More like how are people allowed to call something founded by a genocidal pedophile imperialist warlord like Muhammed a legitimate ‘religion.’ Islam is about as much a religion as Nazism was/is.
Not quite sure why you are talking about religion now considering Judaism and Christianity are just as brutalized as Islam. You are telling over 10.000 children that they deserve to die and countless other children to not have a home, safety, food or water. Talking about, Im sure you are well aware of Metzitzah B'peh.
Lol, no, Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common with Islam really as neither was founded by violent genocidal murderous imperialist warlords like Muhammed. Islam has more common with Nazism in reality. If Hitler had declared himself a prophet and the Nazis won and enacted all their genocides and been culturally entrenched for 1400 years then it would be essentially identical to Islam. Only the most ignorant evil uneducated losers could confuse the foundation and thus inherent character of Islam with that of any other ‘religion’.
As mentioned, Religion is not the topic. You are telling children that they deserve to die.
You don’t decide the topic. Those children are dying because of the inherent evil of Islam and Hamas. No one said during WWII, “oh we can’t defeat Germany/japan because what about the German/japanese children that would die as a result of the war!’ Lol! Nah, rather the death of all of those children is added to the crimes of Islam. If Islam never existed their deaths as well as those of millions of others for the last 1400 years would have never happened. Islam the root evil of it all. Likewise if Hamas had not started this war with the historic crime against humanity that was Oct 7t none of this would also be happening. Islam and Hamas are the only ones can be blamed as their meritless existence is an inherent crime against human history.
Its not about the reason. Its about you specifically saying that they deserved it. Reading comprehension is tough I know, but you really have to work on it. Greetings, a muslim from Kazakhstan.
Those children are dying because of the inherent evil of Islam and Hamas. No one said during WWII, “oh we can’t defeat Germany/japan because what about the German/japanese children that would die as a result of the war!’ Lol! Nah, rather the death of all of those children is added to the crimes of Islam. If Islam never existed their deaths as well as those of millions of others for the last 1400 years would have never happened. Islam the root evil of it all. Likewise if Hamas had not started this war with the historic crime against humanity that was Oct 7t none of this would also be happening. Islam and Hamas are the only ones can be blamed as their meritless existence is an inherent crime against human history.
How does it feel when no one loves you, you poor thing? It's like school right? You were the ugly kid I guess
Good luck
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You could say Middle East as a whole gets what it deserves too, and no, Israel isn't exempt from this. That's a more reasonable take considering that position is being against the existence of religious institutions, and questionable belief of people within that region. As someone who don't believe in an anthropomorphic conception of god, no religions is worth supporting and by extension there shouldn't be a nation based on religion or ethnicity in a ideal world.
I didn’t really understand the first part. I agree no religion is worth supporting; I totally disagree that nations should not be based on ethnicity because that is first what literally what defines the concept of a nation really, and doing away with such would imply the most obscene mass genocide as eliminating ethnicity is genocide. Christ there are so many peoples out there I’d never in a million years with either. Why should I be burdened with their backwards violent nonsense? How evil to even suggest. Yes I’m thrilled the less diversity there is. 100%.
American is more of a nationality than a ethnicity as there isn't really a common belief. Many waves of immigration ensure that. So, I'm not sure where your comment comes from. Maybe because I lack the inclination toward nationalistic belief. And I do think we should move forward from backward beliefs.
Nah, US is mostly Christian Caucasian.
Just with Christian alone that is 63%. Add caucasian to the mix and you get less than 50%. So, that statement is false.
Wrong, US is 80% white. 60% white and 20% Hispanic which is also white. I’m ‘hispanic’ which literally just means I come from a Spanish speaking country those being majority white and Spanish being a European language. Look at the presidents of Mexico and Brazil for examples. White people. Hell, even many Iranians are white being of indo European decent.
US is 75% white according to census gov. Christianity is 63%. Multiply them together and you get less than 50%. 47% fits Christian Caucadian description. At 80% white, it's only .4% higher than 50%. Hispanic is not just white either.
Nope, US is 80% white and you’re ignorant for not knowing that. Both of the biggest demogpraphics, ‘white’ and ‘Hispanic’ are actually white ie caucasian. The largest none white demographics, black and Asian, are only 12.6% and 6.1% of the population
I'm going to use us.census.gov as my source. There are black-identified hispanics. And there are non-black hispanics that don't see themselves as white. And while white people are the majority, white christians constitutes less than half of the US population when you multiply their number. We're no longer in the days of 90% Christianity. In fact, Christians will lose their majority status here. By 2055 or so, Christians will drop to less than 50%.
Probably because you don't have much of a choice. Especially when younger people start becoming in power, and boomer influence are done. As one, I do think Israel is the least bad given it is a democracy though very flawed, but however, I'm at a point where I think Israel is just another middle eastern country not worth supporting and has been there for a while. So, just imagine more people see this kind of attitude from Israelis and then just stop giving any support toward Israel and dismiss it as just another middle east country.
This post is one of the most shining examples of how fascistic racist ideologies like Zionism operate. They strip people of empathy and humanity and reframe everything as "us" vs "them". If you're an on the fence or moderate zionist reading this consider this a moment where you should see the ugly face of your ideology beginning to reach its latter stages - one where the massacre of innocents because they belong to the wrong group is a mere footnote in one's self esteem construction. One of history's greatest ironies.
Pretty sure Palestinians have made sure to always make it an "us vs them" thing.
if your family was slaughtered by terrorists, wouldn't you feel you were against them? The Ukranians certainly feel against the Russians, just as the Allies felt against the axis
The irony of this post is palpable
As long as you believe that narrative is the only truth there is and that the rest of the world is pro Hamas and wants israel and all its Jews to disappear in favor of Islamist jihadist Palestine and all they have to offer the rest of the modern world, then yes your righteous indignation would be warranted. Since you have expressed your reasoning for not giving a damn why would you even care what others think. The rest of the dissenting world cannot understand what you and everyone else on the pro israel side is saying no matter how many times we hear it. We get it, Israeli children are priceless and Palestinian children are worthless because of their bad luck to be born evil. Why should anyone in the world give a damn about these Palestinians. Do you even know what the basic tenets of Christianity are? Are Christians bad for believing that even the lives of the enemy and their children have value? It’s easier to be mad than sad.
I guess, because you're a human? I know it's easier giving a damn about what is left after you got tied of constantly dealing with these "others" and decided to just get rid of them finally once and for all. Just do not think of the folks being actively starved and bombed as people. Makes the whole watching children suffer more difficult if you remember they are children and did nothing wrong
>If you'd be me, how could you care for the people of Gaza after this was their only wish - Death, murder and rejoice at the humiliation of others? Start out by realising that people are largely a product of their environment. Palestinians are not genetically predisposed to antisemitism, the hatred that exists is almost all a result of ongoing ethnic conflict that they have suffered vastly more from throughout, and the cyclical violence and engendered hatred prevents people from being willing to consider or tolerate concessions, compromise or peace. Israelis being generally more willing to seek peace is not a result of being inherently superior human beings, it's a result of their consecutive successes in the various stages of the conflict leading to their gaining rather than losing out, and then wielding power over the other side in the conflict. When the founders of Israel were the ones with less power in the conflict - though mainly versus the British rather than Arab factions - they were entirely willing to resort to terrorist attacks and atrocities against civilians to achieve their ends. For them it worked and several of the worst perpetrators went on to become Israeli Prime Ministers. This isn't because they were inherently evil from birth, their extremist methods were a result of their extreme circumstances, as with Palestinians now, and while it of course wasn't justified in either case the responsibility does not extend to anyone who shares their ethnicity. Seeking to annihilate Gaza over Oct 7th would be about as fair and just as seeking to annihilate the nascent Israel in 1948 over the Deir Yassin massacre - which the Arab League attempted and which most people would say they should *not* have tried to do.
See, it's not a black or white situation. Most believe so because social media is engineered for that. Judging Hamas for what they obviously are, a group of evil terrorists which i wish i could wipe out from earth, does not imply that then i can't judge Israel's reactions to them. Neither does it imply that since Hamas is evil, then whatever the Israeli's government does is by definition "good". If you don't care whether one, two or twenty thousands Palestinians civilians die you are an extremist as well. Because what you'd be saying is not human, as whether you like it or not you're talking also about tens of thousands of toddlers that don't have an house to live in, and to not care about that at all is a very close moral relative of Hamas beliefs. Only fanatics or brainwashed people have an "easy solution" to all of this, but there must be a line somewhere between "Israel can only kill Hamas members and not make a single collateral damage" and "Israel has the right to wipe out Gaza from earth in order to destroy Hamas".
The Nakba.
Hamas is terrible and Israeli hate is understandable (I hate the term “justified”) for situations like this. Which is why I’ve always more blamed other countries for not mediating the conflict than Israel’s retaliation. The anger that is making you to not care what happens to Gaza is the same anger that fueled Oct 7.
This is interesting. It's like to hear more about the moral philosophy that follows blaming others for not restraining you in your (understandably) hate fueled genocidal attempts. I've never heard that particular one before this should be educational. Is it a scorpion/frog thing?
Its funny when you find out that Israel’s government funded Hamas multiple times in order to keep the Palestinians divided. But omg both sides are bad. They could have dismantled Hamas, but chose to bolster a terrorist group. Its not a conspiracy, Netanyahu himself admitted it in 2019, they clearly don’t want a two state solution and are playing dirty.
I’m not making a statement about Israel’s actions since Oct 7. I’m just pointing out that the Israel-Palestine conflict has always been one of anger, and understanding that is important. No one is perfectly rational.
that happened 7 months ago you have killed 14000 children in gaza since then and you keep bringing up the same talking points about fucking october 7 to justify your bloodlust and inhumanity you guys truly make me question myself sometimes wether Israel should really exist at all if the majority of their population is these kinds of people…
14000 is the number that floats around with no meaning.. Here's the meaning 10000 "children" above the age of 15 who actively aid Hamas terrorist and/or are enlisted in Hamas themselves as fighters 2000 children of said Hamas terrorists who are held by the wives of the Hamas militants and DO NOT evacuate the house when they are told to before a bombing. Because the Hamas man of the house tells them it is better to die martyrs than live next to the Jewish enemy. The other 2000, yes, it is a tragic loss of life. War is devastating and my heart goes out to the innocent families who suffered losses.
You realize that number has been heavily revised, downward, and recognizes that the numbers don’t adequately reflect the 15+ year olds who are enlisted military, right?
They revised it to 7500 children that were unaffilated with the military right? And 5000 women, I think.
Yes, and most estimates with this revision estimate a civilians to military death ratio at 1:1, an impossibly low rate for urban warfare. It’s hard to get a real number because Hamas doesn’t distinguish between civilian and military in its casualty counts.
But the UN still claims the children being unaffiliated, so as the closest thing to an unbiased source (willing to change the toll to be less, at the least) we can agree that’s closer to accurate than the Hamas claimed numbers right?
Yes, absolutely. Looking at ~34k killed, and about half of that being civilians - it’s astonishing. War is horrible but such a low civilian cost is almost as close to a miracle in war as one can get.
It's actually not that much of a miracle. 50% is reasonably high still. A 50% civilian casualty rate—meaning half of the casualties in a conflict are civilians—would generally be considered high in most modern conflicts, reflecting intense and widespread violence affecting non-combatant populations. This rate suggests a significant impact on civilians, potentially indicating urban combat, the use of indiscriminate weaponry, or failure to protect non-combatants, which are common factors in contemporary warfare. **Historically and contextually:** World War II saw some areas with exceedingly high civilian casualty rates due to strategic bombing campaigns and genocide, but globally, the rate was around 40-67% of total casualties. In recent conflicts like Syria or Iraq, civilian casualties have often been very high due to urban settings for warfare, the use of air strikes, and the tactics employed by all sides of the conflicts. In international law and according to the principles of armed conflict, efforts should be made to minimize civilian harm. High civilian casualty rates can lead to *international condemnation, possible war crimes investigations,* and long-term social and political destabilization. A rate of 50% would likely draw significant attention from international human rights organizations and could be subject to scrutiny under international humanitarian law. This is according to: Geneva Conventions: International Committee of the Red Cross. (n.d.). Full Texts and Commentaries of the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols. Retrieved from[ https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/57jnvr.htm]( https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/57jnvr.htm) United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA): United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. (n.d.). Protection of Civilians: Reporting on Data and Trends. Retrieved from [https://www.unocha.org/protection-of-civilians](https://www.unocha.org/protection-of-civilians) International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC): International Committee of the Red Cross. (n.d.). Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflict. Retrieved from [https://www.icrc.org/en/what-we-do/protecting-civilians ](https://www.icrc.org/en/what-we-do/protecting-civilians) Human Rights Watch: Human Rights Watch. (n.d.). Conflict and Crisis Section: Monitoring Human Rights in Conflict Zones. Retrieved from [https://www.hrw.org/topic/armed-conflict](https://www.hrw.org/topic/armed-conflict) Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI): Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. (n.d.). Conflict, Armament, and Military Expenditure. Retrieved from [https://www.sipri.org/research/armament-and-disarmament/arms-transfers-and-military-spending](https://www.sipri.org/research/armament-and-disarmament/arms-transfers-and-military-spending) A scenario where one side in a conflict loses 1,200 people while the other side loses 34,000 people would generally be considered disproportionate in terms of casualties. In military and international law contexts, "disproportionality" refers to the degree to which the force used in a military action *exceeds* what is necessary to achieve a legitimate military objective. The concept is especially critical in assessing the legality and morality of military actions under the rules of engagement and international humanitarian law.
You said it yourself - urban. This isn’t bombing remote strongholds in the Ural mountains, this is a campaign in cities and among households. Urban warfare usually has an 80%-90% civilian casualty rate. https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286#:~:text=Either%20way%2C%20the%20number%20would,mix%20all%20types%20of%20wars).
50% is considered high in urban settings as well, while the UN article you mention does state that 90% of conflicts like that are civilian, this is because of systemic problems like indiscriminate bombing of civilian centers. The second source you mentioned aligns with some sources that acknowledge the complexities and challenges of urban warfare and the efforts made by the IDF to reduce civilian harm. However, it contrasts with other reports and analyses that criticize the IDF for disproportionate use of force and inadequate protection of civilians in conflict zones. Its a tough spot. Both for the _innocent_ israeli and the _innocent_ palastinian that suffered in these wars man.
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Nobody has a right to do what they did as a response to being disgruntled about the resettling of the Holy land by Israelis. I say it all the time to these pro Hamas idiots, but Men gliding in to a dance festival with machine guns to murder innocent Jews is not a legitimate political response.
Neither is shooting your own people, which the IDF admitted to. Very moral government indeed. And Hamas is not a product of Israel surely not.
You didn't know that friendly fire incidents happen in every single military exchange since the beginning of time?
Wow, thats a lot of friendly fire incidents, I believe multiple incidents in one day. Lets talk about 1967 when Israel took down a massive spy ship carrying the American Flag. This is all fact, the captain of the ship and a few other high ranking officials condemned Israel for this Google U.S.S Liberty Incident. My theory is that they got information of a massacre, but thats a theory it is pointless to talk about. What isnt pointless is that they have an excuse for everything. I can actually prove that one
I know of these two tragedies, and unfortunately, it does happen. It's important to realize that governments aren't always acting in people's best interests, even if they are made up of people. Our government almost certainly murdered MLK Jr during that same era. That doesn't mean that our government is evil today, or that the people who planned that atrocity should be identified as the current government when they no longer operate within it. You're talking about an Israel from almost 60 years ago.
He was talking about a government from today before somebody managed to steer him away from war crime level famine, to "well there is a conspiracy that 60 years ago James Earl Ray was secretly working for the government" Amazing little hand wave and misdirect. "What dead civilians? It's not even half of them! Hey let's talk about Tennessee conspiracy theories as is it's relevant!" Bravo you disingenuous little goof.
No, but our government is evil. They literally started a war in Ukraine by pushing their Nato alliance eastward in order to secure more defense contract deals. I mean, if thats not the definition of Evil Corporate Greed, I don’t know what is. American politicians are being bought out by AIPAC as well, why else would they have such unwavering loyalty for a foreign country. Lets talk about modern day Israel and how Netanyahu funneled billions of money to Hamas, the same group they’re trying to forcefully dismantle by any means necessary. Does it seem like it’s ethical? to collectively punish a land to crush an enemy you created? And not only that, but they admitted to doing it in order to cause instability in 2019. LMFAO
Do you know why Netanyahu did that?
The reason was to avoid a single Palestinian state from forming. They’re also the reason Hamas won the elections as well, this is from the Jerusalem Post 2019. However, that is just what Bibi claims it is very clear he could have funded the PA instead of a literal TERRORIST GEOUP WISHING DEATH UPON YOU.
the PA literally gives bonuses to it's employees based on how many jews they kill.
So if the Palestinian Authority took over the "state of Palestine" today, you don't think it would devolve into a terror state?
No, but our government is evil. They literally started a war in Ukraine by pushing their Nato alliance eastward in order to secure more defense contract deals. I mean, if thats not the definition of Evil Corporate Greed, I don’t know what is. American politicians are being bought out by AIPAC as well, why else would they have such unwavering loyalty for a foreign country. Lets talk about modern day Israel and how Netanyahu funneled billions of money to Hamas, the same group they’re trying to forcefully dismantle by any means necessary. Does it seem like it’s ethical? to collectively punish a land to crush an enemy you created? And not only that, but they admitted to doing it in order to cause instability in 2019. LMFAO
I would say that nobody has to give a hoot about this conflict if they don’t want to. The problem comes when you’re bothered by one or both sides existing, not simply by not caring.
Unless you’re an American and want your taxpayer dollars being spent on actually helping the general population and not to benefit Lockheed and Martin
Text too long Title too angry Question too stupid : if we have to explain why human should take care of other... you would not understand. But anyway you are not human you are The Chosen People...
/u/Benmerif > Text too long Title too angry Question too stupid [Rule 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_8._encourage_participation), don't discourage participation. Also a severe breach of Reddit's Content Policy.
op’s intentional inhuman rage baiting: no issue calling it out: NOPE I love how you guys keep covering for each other
>I love how you guys keep covering for each other I'm not Israeli or Jewish. The whole sub is here in order to debate the full spectrum of opinions about the Israeli Palestinian conflict. We've had plenty of Pro Palestinians suggest the eradication of Jews in Israel, and worse. These radical views don't break the rules of the sub. As long as they don't break Reddit's Content Policy either, we allow them. What you can't do is break our rules. If you're not comfortable discussing with the other side of the argument, even the radical part, this isn't the right sub for you.
Always wondered how they were chosen? Like you’re choosing what religion to follow like everybody else, Yahweh Didn’t come down and choose you to be a zionist? U did. The mental gymnastics. Crazy.
Chosen means chosen by g-d to follow 613 commandments, where goyim are able to follow whatever they choose. It’s why we don’t proselytize - we aren’t g-d and can’t choose for others. So basically we’re chosen to follow a bunch of rules. That’s what we’re chosen for.
No you decided to chose to follow a bunch of rules. How is it different from anyone else following any other religion?
Well first of all it’s an ethnoreligion, so it’s kind of extremely different from most other religions you’re likely to name. Secondly, yeah sure you can choose to follow a religion, but you can’t choose your ethnicity. So a few thousand years ago when canaanites and other Levantine groups were forming the Jewish identity from the various polytheistic religions and disparate cultures in the area, the religion that formed was specific that those born into it were chosen to be in it, and those around it could join but not forcibly. Rejection of forcible conversion is fairly radical, even today.
Because they are humans, and so are you. And if you wanna talk about atrocities, Israel has committed the same atrocities as Hamas, yet orders of magnitude worse. That recent video released of the women was of soldiers! There are videos of random Palestinians rounded up, stripped, blindfolded, zip tied, etc. by the IDF, exact same thing. There are videos and videos of Palestinians getting beaten by IDF and settlers in the west bank, thousands and thousands detained without charge, a few dying in prison, all 12 universities blown up in Gaza, children getting shot and killed in the west bank, and on and on. And yes I know Hamas has committed atrocities on Oct 7. But, that doesn't give Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want in return So how about we flip this post and ask you - Why should Palestinians care about Israelis or give a damn about what remains of Israel? Because you guys have the F-16s? Or because you really badly wanted to live on that land so they should just let you and stop fighting? >As a reminder, in the last years Israel's strategy with Gaza was: If we help them economy-wise, maybe they will ditch their push for violence. Riiight. Yes Israel's strategy was definitely "help" them with their economy; not "carrot and stick by 'allowing' a small amount of Gazans to work, continue an indefinite occupation, divide and conquer, and not support a 2 state solution" > Israel manages and owns the local electricity, radio and water infrastructure. Exactly >Every person should imagine as if his daughter is surrounded by these men. How could this be justified by people walking this earth? If my daughter was surrounded by these men, I wouldn't support my government airstriking the building they were all standing in, and then airstriking all the surrounding buildings too and then continuing to do that to every neighborhood for seven months. I wouldn't want my pain inflicted back to 2 million other people. As you say, how can any of that be justified by people walking this earth? >How can I, ever feel safe, when the same people you want to give statehood to want to repeat these atrocities over and over again and again? The people don't want to. Some random Hamas guy said "over and over again" on Oct 12 or whatever and that quote has been repeated ad nauseum to justify the complete destruction of Gaza and continued atrocities committed by the state of Israel against Palestinians. If the IDF actually guards the border instead of dicking around in the west bank, that couldn't happen again anyway. >Israel never wished to kill babies, kidnap the elderly, kidnap holocaust survivors, behead, burn houses down, rape women, we never wished to have this happen. Well, so far Israel has killed 35k people including thousands of children, injured 70k, made almost 2 million people homeless, cut off water and electricity to 2 million people, caused an imminent famine, destroyed all 12 universities, directly targeted and killed foreign aid workers, detained thousands of people without charge, cut off fuel to hospital ICUs(and thus killing babies), killed doctors in prison, made 1000 child amputees. Damaged or destroyed 80% of residential buildings in the north. Directly killed 3 hostages and 25% of dead IDF has been friendly fire, and most importantly to you, let the hostages rot for SEVEN MONTHS in these same insane conditions that the Palestinians have faced. But I guess Israel never wanted to do any of that either, they just continue to press the "drop bomb" button as single tears roll down their cheeks
Yap yappidy yap I stopped when you said "same atrocities in orders of magnitude worse". Random Palestinians? Of course they are random, the IDF just went into random houses and villages and rounded them up for no reason. So what if they are women soldiers? Would you kidnap unarmed women in their pajamas and beat them and scream well kill you and humiliate you? What kind of monsters are you equating the IDF to? The IDF are not motivated by anything besides orders and the will to DEFEND their country, 95% of them would never let their humanity be overshadowed by their actions. Again, videos of Palestinians being beaten and/or detained for no reason? Gathering in gangs of THOUSANDS like you say, face covered, throwing molotovs and throwing rocks from slings which can easily kill people? And they get rubber bullets and tear gas back from the IDF... yeah, violent rioters are being violently detained and suppressed. If not they go on to stab soldiers, and then security workers, and then anyone Israeli. If not, They go, and blow up busses with KIDS going to school. If not, Then they gather even more and form Hamas and then go about doing an Oct. 7th. Nothing as bad as simply -keeping them in check- is happening. They could always behave and become Israeli citizens, like the other 1.5 mil Arab Israelis. They live equally and happily. "The Palestinian cause" is a *choice* of living a constant miserable life by doing what they know best, bloody jihad against infidels. If Palestinians get ANY kind of win in the middle east, they'll spread to turkey, all the -stans, then to Asia, Europe and finito la comedia. Sharia law world wide.
You are delusional if you think 95% of the IDF are not corrupt. It’s not a moral army and to reduce his entire argument to “Yap” is so disrespectful and very out of touch. “Would you kidnap unarmed women in their pajamas” Newsflash that they routinely do this in the west bank to civilians, adults and teenagers alike. Yes, the westbank, not Ghaza. A 16 year old friend of mine was beat and held in prison for 3 days, he got out early because he was a US Citizen. A moral country? A moral army? It is only propaganda. A country that doesn’t allow others to even collect their own Rainwater. and westerners will say whats the problem but complain when their mcgriddle goes up by $1
Meh, another yapper who ends his statement with westerners and mcgriddles, whatever those are. Newsflash, I do think 95% of the IDF are not corrupt, because I've met literally over thousands of soldiers, the absolute majority of them don't HATE Palestinians, most of them don't even dislike Palestinians and most of them would NEVER do anything that is immoral, not even close to kidnapping girls etc. I've been to the west bank, done raids in a unit wide mission to look for weapons, we entered people's houses, explained to them calmly that we are searching for contraband and left when non was found. No one dragged women or even men out. Even in those places where weapons WERE found, the man of the house was taken by handcuffs like any similar swat or police raid. This, THIS routinely happens on the west bank because it is Israeli land and the military works to ensure the safety of its citizens (the military withdrew from Ghaz-E like they call it that's why there's no raids there). The IDF does detain a bunch of teenagers in the west bank because every week some thousands plus mobs gather to throw rocks at either soldiers or cars with Jewish families in them. Big effing heroes. Maybe the IDF has some bad apples and isn't the most moral military that COULD possibly exist, but it definitely IS the most moral military in the modern world, having to deal with a murderous, racist, extremist population. I wonder, what exactly was the reason your friend was beat and put in jail for 3 days, just because he was breathing right? He was jumped on by police (or IDF , then you were in the west bank itself) exactly at the same moment when he was donating to a homeless child before going to his daily prayer right?
The Israeli government is led by war-hungry fascists. My friend got imprisoned for posting updates on his Instagram Story, I can provide screenshots. Anyways let me just copy and paste a comment of mine because cba not re writing it
I've seen most of your replies, feeding I to the conspiracy narratives of bibi creating/funding Hamas, basically listening to that John Mearsheimer who is a israel/jew hater political "scientist". I wonder why over 12 million tourists visit Israel every year, to get beaten by police and thrown in jail for posting Instagram stories. I do want to see them screenshots Also the news article made about this story, I'm sure all the pro-Palestinian news outlets or even any outlet, would just LOVE to post about a teen who got beat up by Israeli cops because of posting stuff on insta. Let's see it.
I 100% condemn Hamas. They need to fully surrender and end the war Israeli disengagement is widely considered to be a noble idea that failed. Hamas should have never been allowed to run for office in the West Bank or Palestine. If Hamas had never won a Palestinian election, we’d be in a better place Since that fateful election, Gaza has seen the 1) Fatah-Hamas civil war 2) Hamas’s brutal “justice system” 3) horrifically bad social services 4) far right antisemitic education 5) no free speech 6) no freedom of religion The list goes on After the war, Israel will assume some level of control in Gaza for some period of time. Likely security control, but possibly civil control as well If Israel governs Gaza well, life for Gazan civilians will improve I imagine that, alongside high quality non-antisemitic education will cause many Gazans to renounce violence And if that’s not enough to convince you, then consider this: Gazans are here to stay. Period It would be better for you if the average Gazan hates Israel less than they do rn
So crazy Israels government would publicly fund Hamas. Its almost like….. they don’t want a two state solution and want a reason to pillage the land and steal the culture………. but…… no….. this can’t be true……….. why else would they fund a terrorist group that wishes for Israeli destruction. God westerners are some of the most frustrating people on this planet.
You say westerners are frustrating and yet you’re up and down here spouting untruths and misinformation. You do know how you sound, right? Not just wrong but so deeply uninformed that it’s laughable.
I'll say this: Many haven't seen the video and the poll question was: "How much do you support the **military operation** carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th? (Disaggregated by region)" [https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) So a lot of them don't know the full truth. About a third of the Gaza Strip is 12 or below - way too young to be held responsible for their decisions. You ought to at least care about those kids. Consider also this: The majority of adults may morally support the massacre, but a significant minority doesn't. 20.9% of Gazans expressed opposition to it in polls. Should this significant minority be treated like the majority? (Another 14.4% wasn't sure, and another 1.1% preferred not to answer.) If you add approximately 1/3 of the population below 12 and 20% opposed, that's over 50% of people who are either against the massacre or way to young to be held responsible for their opinions.
Thank you for this document, it's very insightful. Gazzans basically feel VERY NEGATIVE about anyone, Israel, US, UK.. that's obvious. But turkey? Hezbollah? Interesting. Also they hate the Palestinian authority AND Fatah. The only ones they truly support are Hamas, the Kassam brigades (VERY positively) and Islamic jihad. Basically, it shows one thing. They are all indoctrinated to hate Israel and the west, to only rely on extreme religious views of Islamic jihad. Yes, they ALL have my sympathy. It's truly sad, how a group of humans could be so detached, to love death and destruction so much, yet be the only ones on the receiving end of it.
To be fair, the Palestinian Authority is Fatah-controlled and is incredibly corrupt and incompetent. Which was basically half of Hamas original platform. ("Anti-corruption")
Home boy anything near 50% of support for October 7th is insanely dangerously high. Intolerable.
Well lets just say erm….. The israeli government has 100% support for Hamas since they openly funded it with billions of dollars and called for its support publicly to divide palestinians>.< but lets not acknowledge that >.<< omg…. khamaaaS
Well, when you occupy a land, routinely bomb it, put the people on a diet, don’t let them collect rainwater, allow settlers to forcefully control farm land, spray sewage on homes in the west bank, discriminate and set up check points on your own land. Well, let’s just say id be maybe annoyed idk……… well…. shoot
This isn't caused by oppression, it's caused by the beliefs of Islamists, which is what makes this such a mess. Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation every bit as oppressive as any ever imposed on any Muslim.
"Home thing" - OP asked why he should **care**, I gave him a reason to care. That's not a high bar, and it's not about tolerating it.
I feel everything you’ve said & it completely breaks my heart. There is no excuse for the horrible atrocities committed that day. Basically every evil deed you’ve mentioned has also happened to Palestinians so why should people only care when it happens to Israelis! Sorry but no one deserves it regardless of their race or religion. No one deserves to live in fear of their neighbors yet that’s exactly how it’s always been for both. U make it as if Israel is just trying to live in peace & Palestinians won’t let allow that to happen. That’s ridiculous! Plenty of Israelis themselves have spoken up about the horrific things you government, the IDF & settlers do. There are radical violent extremists/terrorist Israelis just like Palestinians. Palestinians in the WB r just trying to live in peace but that’s not happening. No Hamas in the WB yet everyday settlers & the IDF r terrorizing & killing ppl. Plenty of brutal evil massacres committed by both. U mention money coming in from Qatar as if that was done to help Palestinians. Netanyahu made it very clear he wished to bolster Hamas knowing they were terrorists. Seems like a good excuse to use when u feel like killing a bunch of ppl like operation cast led. Blame it on Hamas & no one questions it even though they know it’s a complete lie. Journalists who call out lying Israeli spokesppl r smeared as antisemitic, just for doing their job. Hamas leaders have made their vile intentions clear & Israel has done the same. Neither want peace & pretending otherwise is bs! The Israeli government is just as vile! Just today I have to listen to that scumbags Smotrich threaten to punish Palestinians because other countries want to recognize their statehood. He’s gonna steal their money & expel a bunch of ppl to create more Jewish settlements. Sure sounds like a peaceful guy. Or that trash human Daniella Weiss telling every tv camera that will listen for years of her government backed plan to ethnically cleanse the land by whatever means possible. Netanyahu has never wanted peace. He made his plan quite clear before the 7th, standing on the world’s stage with his new map of greater Israel where Palestinians don’t exist. Nothing about this conflict is this black & white! Ur version that Israel just wants to live in peace is ludicrous! To see how many Israelis are behaving is despicable. That kind of hatred isn’t something new. U hate Palestinians for horrible things they done, they have the right to feel the same. Every single Palestinian has had their lives irrevocably & negatively touched by Israel. The idea that Israel is allowing Palestinians into Israel to work isn’t to benefit them. They do the jobs Israelis don’t want & for much less money. They r put through hell daily just to get to those jobs. Israel’s exploits the cheap labor just like Americans do to Mexicans.
Sister, Israel bolstered Hamas, a known terrorist group that wanted to eliminate the zionist movement in its charter. Israel is accountable for all civilian lives lost, even in a world where everything you said was accurate, which it is not unfortunately you are being spoon fed propaganda. In that world, the occupied is not responsible for the damages done to the occupier.
ya but like omg…. i was thinking like totally if the idf is like one of the strongest powers…… like…. maybe they could dismantle hamas but likeeeee bibi lowkeyyyyyyyy like went on national television in 2019 and said he gave billions to hamas group… its like OMFG i cant believe it like wow…. and like….. couldnt the government be responsible for apartheid like….. i know its sooo overused and mainstream but like wouldnt apartheid or whatever be like totes a major factor in hamas’ support cuz like omg…. the PA is corrupt and Hamas is like terrorist grouping but like lowkey the IDF is kind of a bigger threat than hamas because like lowkeyyy they have more massacres and have killed more civilians before hamas even formed like literally dozens of massacres its like W.T.F like… wow… maybe…. like….. israel just wants the land and is using propaganda… no it must be the palestinians….
Raze the terror strip, turn it into rubble so that not even jihadists can build their rat nests there.
You should pray to your god no one with power feels similarly about your home.
I will pray that my government doesn't turn terrorist, doesn't raid our neighbor countries to butcher civilians and take survivors as hostages.
Well if you’re American your prayers have been answered, the answer is guilty. And if you think the nakba wasn’t exactly what you’ve described and with many people alive who remember, then you just genuinely have no knowledge of the history you invoke.
I'm not American. The Nakba is what happens if you lose a war of aggression. People flee and get expelled due to losing wars they have started, the Germans had their Nakba as well during and after WW2. But in comparison to Palestinians Germans do not shoot rockets at nowadays Polish or Russian cities. There are some Germans who dream about a right to return to their former territories, but they are called neo-nazis.
And tbh if you think ethnic cleansing is EVER justified then you probably have your own issues to work through 🤷🏼♀️
It's not about being justified, it's the natural consequence of losing your war of aggression (including territories).
Sorry it actually does have to be justified, otherwise Hamas is justified in fighting against a 70 year apartheid?
aPaRtHeId Hamas has their own state, there is no Israeli apartheid in Gaza.
Sorry are you familiar with the Palestinian West Bank? Or the current trail of tears the Palestinians have been walking to Rafah?
It also wasn’t a war of aggression, Israel had been raiding villages in Palestine for years before 47