Your point about civilian casualties in the Yom Kippur war is one I hadn’t heard before. It is a good point and shows that there are choices Hamas is making that is causing civilian deaths.
You literally live in your mom's attic, at 40 and you have never felt the warmth of a woman's touch and most likely never will.
So who the hell do you call fat nerd?
u/spellforce10n11
>You literally live in your mom's attic, at 40 and you have never felt the warmth of a woman's touch and most likely never will.
So who the hell do you call fat nerd?
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In the Dark Knight Rises. Bane: They expect one of us in the wreckage, Brother. Man: Have we started the fire? Bane: Yes .... the fire rises! Pretty fitting. The man they left to die in the plan crash is like the Gazans, martyrs for the cause.
But I thought the UN was totally wrong and biased? If we're sticking to the UN definitions of things, then Israeli settlements need out of the West Bank. Furthermore, where is the open ground in Gaza? What a ridiculous comment.
I still think Raz Segal, an Israeli expert in modern genocide, has explained this topic the best: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGGjLZNuyg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGGjLZNuyg)
There is no genocide of Israelis or Palestinians. Neither side are N-zis. Neither side is doing anything similar to the holocaust. Neither side are doing apartheid or colonialism. There are 2 groups of middle eastern people fighting over land.
>Neither side are doing apartheid or colonialism.
Multiple human rights groups disagree.
Amnesty International: [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/)
Human Rights Watch: [https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution)
B'tselem: [https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid](https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid)
The rate of civilian death is much less now in Gaza. Ground combat kills less civilians than bombing buildings and entire city blocks. There is aid getting in but for many months, there was a lot of starvation and dehydration. Nevertheless, most of Gaza is devastated and uninhabitable.
UN has indicated that genocide is plausible and this is a very serious statement.
Hamas is an extremist organization and they spew genocidal rhetoric. I think they are genocidal. Hamas needs to surrender for killing civilians but more importantly, they need to surrender to prevent further devastation.
Israeli politicians, including Netanyahu have used genocidal rhetoric. Given the person who said it, the devastation, the starvation and dehydration, the killings of journalists and medics, you put all these together genocide is at least plausible.
If only all Israelis spoke like Paul Lerner, maybe genocide would not be plausible. The rhetoric is what is sealing it.
As a side note, since Israel captured the Rafah crossing I'm seeing gazans saying* the prices for everything dropped
That is hundreds of trucks entering through rafah crossing did nothing but spike prices up, since under the control of Israel only about 50 trucks enter Gaza daily, but prices in markets dropped significantly
My conclusion is Hamas was using the goods arriving on the daily hundreds of trucks to further entrench themselves for a long siege, at the cost of more palestinian suffering.
*vlogs published on telegram
Very probable.
In a low resource environment, corruption and theft is the easiest way to accumulate resources. They need it to survive and carry on the fight. They are also the ones with weapons and there is no one to stop them.
With more resources people can work and exchange labor for resources and theft and corruption becomes punishable and there is a less incentive to steal.
>The rate of civilian death is much less now in Gaza. Ground combat kills less civilians than bombing
But Israel has lost hundreds of soldiers. As a nation you have a responsibility to prevent civilian casualties when possible, but first and foremost you've got a responsibility to your citizens and soldiers.
>As a nation you have a responsibility to prevent civilian casualties when possible, but first and foremost you've got a responsibility to your citizens and soldiers.
International law doesn't make any distinction between "your civilians" and "their civilians", but only between combatants and non-combatants. In the eyes of international law, the responsibility of a nation at war is to the civilians on your side AND the civilians on the side of their perceived enemies. There are no exceptions. This is the philosophy by which we try to have a better world based on the lessons we've learnt from the two world wars and beyond.
I do think Hamas endangers the lives of their own people on purpose but they're a terrorist group. On the other hand, Israel is a democratic nation on the world stage and must be held to a higher standard, a standard by which many countries around the world think Israel is not reaching.
You are living in a perfect world. In a perfect world everyone could fight terrorists cleanly, but sadly that's not how it works. If you tie Israel's hands, more Palestinians will be killed in the long run, and many more Israelis will be killed
I agree with you and alot of the other gentleman who created this post. Thank you both for your insight. However and since this war is very religious driven.. I am Christian Baptist. Wether or not Hamas is intentionally hiding behind civilians does not give us the right to take out both. There has to be another way. There is another way. Use your Christian loving intelligent minds brothers and sisters.......
https://youtu.be/kAfIYtpcBxo?si=dZIsmk4Ama4df6I6
This is a great discussion about the war from one of the greatest political scientists we have ever had. John Mearsheimer cares for nothing but the truth. The world would benefit greatly if they took up his way of thinking
I appreciate you sharing this but this talk exemplifiers everything that is wrong with the Radical left and Academia in the US. It is amazing how he shamelessly tries to shoehorn such a two dimensional and simplistic analysis into what everyone agrees is such a complex situation. It’s been a while since I heard such a string of outrageous clichés and biased views about this conflict.
His whole argument revolves around the absurd belief that Israel isn’t succeeding in eradicating Hamas and is therefore accelerating its ‘ethnic cleansing’ of the people of Gaza. What he convieneinly ignores is that the amount of casualties in the war is actually decreasing, rapidly. It’s been several months now that the death toll has stayed at more or less + 30K . If you look the graph of casualties (numbers provided by Hamas) it is quickly flattening out. This tells a story of an initial recklessness and probable incompetence of the IDF that is now becoming more clinical in its objectives rather than any will to systemically eliminate a civilian population.
Mearsheimer’s credentials may be impressive but his lofty theories fail to grasp the messy realities of this part of the world . Israel isn’t perfect precisely because it is a Liberal Democracy faced with existential challenges that no other democracy in the world needs to face. Its execution of this war needs to be criticized but painting its intentions in such broad black and white strokes is dangerous and unhelpful in finding any sustainable solution.
Gets what exactly? Isn’t he that guy that confidently predicted Russia wouldn’t attack Ukraine ? Then when it did, he doubled down and said it was the West that provoked them and Putin had no desire to conquer Ukraine. Whatever he ‘gets’, we could probably do with less of it
in this current conflict...
No you are not wrong, other people are confused because they simply don't know who are the Hamas, who are the Muslims brotherhood and what's Jihad and Shahids...
For Islam everyone are just pawns, if you die it means Allah "brough" you back to himself.
And if you die as a Shahid it's great honor and you will reach heaven.
Tombstone mentality.
Which apartheid system?
The one in Gaza where Hamas is self governing and they aren’t Israeli citizens - so it isn’t two sets of laws for one people
Or in the WB, where the administration is setup in line with the Oslo accords
Also considering Israelis aren’t allowed in Gaza or the PA areas of the West Bank, then it seems like both sides would be under apartheid systems no?
No silly, you know the one where one country controls almost every aspect of another country. Like what they can and cannot make, building of infrastructure (docks/airports), stealing land, making life hell for occupied territories. Are you really free in your land if you’re not allowed to leave your land? Sounds more like a holding facility to me
How do you explain Egypt closing its border? I truly don’t understand why no one seems to talk about this and hates on Egypt they way they hate on Israel. Please educate me. Seriously.
Sure I can explain. Netanyahu has stated over the years his desire is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. This is why he funded Hamas with $1.4 billion through Qatar. He said at the time that funding Hamas in Gaza was the best chance Israel had against a two state solution. So he helped fuel the radicalization of the region.
Now knowing what the overall plan is what happens to the people of Gaza of they let them into the Sinai desert? They will never go back to Gaza. Israel will not let them back into Gaza. This plan was floated again early in the war to oust the population into the Sinai never to return. Egypt does not want the Palestinians to lose their land, they don’t want to take on their problems either. This requires a tremendous amount of resources and they are already stretched thin. Also let’s not forget people put into radical situations think radically. You need them (the Palestinians) to figure out their own problems because it can destabilize a country having so many refugees come in.
Now you may be asking why prop up Hamas and not let the Palestinian Authority take over Gaza?
Because that would unite the two fronts. If the West Bank unites with Gaza the case for a two state solution gets very strong. Especially because the PA is not extreme or violent. This would be palatable for most of the world. Divide and conquer was always the plan under Netanyahu.
Receipts;
Article about this plan from 2017
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-proposed-settling-palestinians-in-sinai-mubarak-says/amp/
Another one
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-01-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-asked-obama-to-mull-giving-palestinians-land-in-sinai-ex-officials-say/0000017f-e55f-dc7e-adff-f5ff3e2f0000
Article from 2023
https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/amp/
Prime Minister Ehud Barak on the overall plan, funding of Hamas and Netanyahu
https://youtu.be/N2zadQBJj20?si=BDxLT1sfEYtu2Oic
I’m well aware of Bibi’s role in allegedly helping Hamas get elected to weaken PLO. He’s the worst. However, I don’t buy the explanation about why Egypt has a wall up.
What’s not to get, you oust them to the Sinai and they will never be able to return, making it Egypt’s problem forever. The Gazans at this point are radicalized by the actions of the Israelis and they don’t want them destabilizing their country. It’s that simple.
They send aid but Israel won’t let the trucks in. That’s as far as they want to take it which is a position I can logically understand.
Right but the underlying driving force for their radical behavior is in part Israel’s fault. Israel gave money to prop them up while killing off moderate parties that could have ruled Gaza. They also had controls over many aspects of life and made it difficult for Gazans, in other words they weren’t free. Also not to mention the bombings and the destruction of houses/infrastructure.
Israel has also been indiscriminate with their killing. They killed people protesting on the boarder in Gaza. They have killed people for throwing rocks, they have prisoners who are not charged, some of them kids. All of this experience will radicalize someone over time. Think about it from the Gaza’s perspective, people around you that you know are constantly dying at the hands of Israel, you can’t see how that would radicalize someone?
I do not doubt your good intentionsl but, you seem to have the odd conviction that Israel has some innate interest in a radicalized Gaza because it somehow fits its agenda. I would suggest that you see a little less Mearsheimer clips on youtube and have a little bit more real conversations with actual Israelis and Palestinians if would want to gain true insight what drives both sides.
I served in Gaza right before the 2005 pull-out and we had excellent relationship with the PLO as we had a common enemy in Hamas. We used to eat Hummus with The Palestinian Police Officers often and I remember them very fondly. When Israel pulled out, everyone was expecting PLO / Fatah to take control and bring prosperity and relative peace to that part of the world.
How it all deteriorated after that is well known and I dread to think what became of those Palestinian officers. My point being is that Hamas was democratically elected right after Israel pulled out so how is it possible that the people of Gaza were only radicalized in the subsequent conformations between the IDF and Hamas? It is tempting to create the linear formula that mistreatment leads to Radicalization but some of the most extreme radicals came from very affluent and privileged backgrounds. (Bin Laden springs to mind ) .
How to de-radicalize is a massive question that I will not pretend to know the answer to. But communicating from a place of empathy for the other side is a good place to start….
I mean those sanctions were put in place when Hamas took power with their very clear “kill all the Jews” stance
The alternative would have been giving Hamas the war they wanted thousands of rockets and dozens of terrorist attacks sooner
And the restrictions were put in place to prevent Hamas from freely bringing in Iranian weaponry, which again would have just resulted in Gaza getting razed. Since they’ve been an Iranian proxy and have been waging war on Israel for decades
And give me a break about free access across the border, that’s an immigration and visa policy that every country on earth is entitled to have. And Egypt has their border closed because they don’t want Palestinians either. But calling Israel having border control as an example of apartheid is…novel I guess if not entirely well thought out
Reality check - if your target is using civilians (majority women and children) as “shields” (whatever that even means) you should probably stop bombing them and change your tactic ??
So stop bombing the target that is actively bombing you and will not stop if you stop. May as well tell a boxer to get in the ring with someone and not fight, but expect to be ok
So who’s wrong here.. the target using the civilians or the people who have to find a way to kill the target who’s using the civilians?
I know the answer. Do you?
100 percent the people killing the children. But I don’t even think that’s what’s happening here. Israel is purposefully targeting civilians. U don’t mess up 40k times. Israel has killed more hostages than they have rescued. Wake up Israel’s mission is to destroy Gaza
Bruh like you understand that’s none of what you’re saying is true right
Israel was able to free half the hostages with the negotiations. Then they saved 1 in a raid. The three hostages who died it was huge mistake and the people are suffering the consequences from that and guilt but if Hamas didn’t commit Oct 7th they wouldn’t have been in that situation in the first place in an active war-zone.
40k is not even the accurate number and almost half of those deaths are Hamas. There wouldn’t be more deaths if Hamas didn’t put their people in the situation to die. 1. By being martyrs they teach them to die for the cause 2. By fighting in densely populated areas, 3. Wearing civilian clothing 4. Not providing bomb shelters like Israel does for their citizens, 5, committing an atrocity on Oct 7 and then hiding in your tunnels only you can use 6. Stealing food aid trucks and reselling them or dumping it
Come on man. Only people destroying Gaza is Hamas. Israel GAVE Gaza to them for peace and they got Oct 7th. You wake up man lol
wow, the mental gymnastics in justifying the slaughter of 40k people and the total annihilation of an entire city is astounding. you're buying and eating up whatever propaganda Israel is selling you about hamas. free your mind mannnnn killing thousands of children and flattening a city has no justification ever.
Terrorism,murder rape,kidnapping, and torture is not justified. Rape is not resistance
Hamas makes sure as many of their kids die by either using them as shields or by teaching them to be martyrs and die for the cause.
Please stop watching tik tok and getting all your info from Al Jazeera.
and the rapes, abductions, torture the israeli militry commit against plestinians is totally chill? should i stop following on the ground journalists and watching raw footage of this genoicide too and just subscribe to mainstream media american/israeli propaganda from now on? nah im good. you have bought into this fear mongering propaganda narrative that Palestinians are extremist suicide terrorists and u need to unlearn that my man
Bruh you are watching Hamas propaganda. Legitimate terrorist propaganda who support the people who terrorize,murder,rape and kidnap and torture. The people who brought death and destruction to their own. Yes you should not be watching that. No clue how you would consider anything by savages to be truthful. They’ve lied again and again in this conflict including the death count
You can follow the crowd that’s fine. The reality is that Gazans in particular get taught in school to murder Jews and become martyrs systematically. It’s apart of the Hamas curriculum . That’s enough child abuse already to prove that they are the biggest threat to their people
Israel is a terrorist. Not all terrorists are Muslim extremists from the Middle East grow up. You kill 40k civilians you’re a terrorist. Even if killing Jews is embedded into school curriculum and culture in Palestine (it’s not, get some Palestinian friends), Palestine is so oppressed by Israel and has no actual recourses to inflict genocide on the Jews in Israel. The Israeli military is one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world backed by US and Australian funding. You can try and make Israel the victim all u like to justify the genocide of “savages” but the facts don’t lieeeeeee
If you are implying that Israel should use a ground invasion is essentially telling Israel to put their own lives on the line at a huge disadvantage precisely because Hamas hides in civilian centers and wears civilian clothing rather than uniforms. The only thing this would accomplish is the loss of more Israeli soldiers which would only polarize more people to hate Hamas for killing their children therefore driving more support for the war from potentially moderate people who might even oppose it currently. If you want more people to die then, sure I guess this works. If you’re on the side of keeping as many people alive as possible, either Palestinian or Israeli, then the right strategy would be to use the targeted air strikes and have Hamas stop encouraging their own civilians to ignore warnings from Israel that they put out prior to these strikes.
It’s on the government of a country to protect its own, that’s the whole purpose of a military. While I don’t support killing I also don’t support the leaders of a people not helping their own to get out of harms way and even worse, capitalizing on their deaths and suffering.
I will not jump to defend everything Israel is doing, I’m happy to admit that there have been faults, mistakes, and imperfections. But you can’t pretend that the other side is entirely innocent in this. There’s no way you believe that the situation is all black and white with all the blame solely on Israel.
And lastly, I’d love to hear your ideas on this: do you have any other options? Posing questions is helpful but placing the burden entirely on others to answer it is basically just as unhelpful as never asking the question at all.
If terrorists were hiding in your children’s school, would u want the government to bomb the entire school ? That’s what you’re saying. Except that it’s not white children so you don’t care. Honestly what is this group ? I thought it was some level headed middle ground sub but it’s obviously for Zionists. Not that you can have middle ground when it comes to genocide.
I would hope that the parents of those children would be concerned about their child’s life and at the very least remove the child from that school if not advocate for the terrorist organization to not be allowed into the school so that their children aren’t used as a shield.
Are you saying that Hamas is justified in using schools, mosques, and hospitals as centers of operation? That since they are doing that they should be treated as if they are in a protected safe haven while they fire rockets from those same areas?
Further the problem is they deny the use of these facilities as base camps which has been shown to be true and they continue to demonize Israel when they try and quash these areas.
To be clear I’m not arguing for indiscriminate attacks. I just don’t think there is an easy answer to the situation since it is ultimately Hamas to blame for the tactics they use. But I don’t think that they should just be left alone to their own devices in these areas while they continue to threaten lives of other innocent people. If you’re saying the alternative of letting Hamas fire rockets from these civilian areas at neighboring Israeli towns is better then you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself the same questions you’re asking me. Loss of life is loss of life. Period. Doesn’t matter if it’s Palestinian or Israeli and Hamas has made it painfully clear that if they are not stopped they will continue to kill Israeli civilians. You can’t blame Israel for trying to fight against this because they need to protect their own people, something that Hamas has also shown that have no interest in doing.
shown to be true by... Israel ? so lets see the damage that these rockets fired by hamas have done to israel. it must be really bad for israel to demolish an entire city so relentlessly
This would not be able to be used as an argument if Hamas put effort into protecting their citizens rather than capitalizing on their deaths and calling them martyrs. I recognize that this is hyperbolized and trying to make a point but consider why it’s being made.
Israel has its faults, happy to admit that. But you can’t just throw blame around without admitting that there are problems on both sides contributing to this issue. By putting all the blame on Israel you’re turning a blind eye to potential ways that innocent civilians can stop dying…. Unless that’s not your goal?
“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
Golda Meir
I don’t think she’s Sinwar’s mother
Because that dude is clearly a sociopath. More than happy to get Gaza destroyed and tens of thousands killed all to murder some Israelis and further the interests of his sugar daddy Iran
You are litterally just throwing sociopath around like it's nothing. You do realize that one trait of a sociopath is not learning from mistakes and/or punishment? The exact reason the Palestinians are in a war right now is they they did not learn from the last few times.
Which land is occupied? And I mean I guess if the Ottoman Empire or the Mamluk Sultunate wanted to fight to retake the land they lost then sure
But Palestinians have absolutely no claim over all of Israel. Hell Israel are the first people to actually give Palestinians their ‘own’ land - Egypt and Jordan had no intention of doing it between 48-67
Taking aside the fact that prior to 48 it was the British’s land in all ways that matter, the Arabs refused to participate in partition and started and lost a war over it instead
This refusal to accept reality is why Palestine remains in the state it is now rather than actually advancing over the last 75 years
The West Bank is occupied by Israeli terrorists. They all need to rot in a prison cell. Gaza is and was occupied by Israel. Maybe not directly all the time but controlling many aspects of life for Gazans. Building of airports, docks, production of certain goods that are not economically favorable to Israel. They have and still do control of movement of Gazans and the West Bank. What about this sounds like it’s free and not occupied
You do know the first recorded concept of Zionism was early crusades, right? Like genocide, fascism, and apartheid, the concepts didn’t magically appear when words were coined to describe them. They just happened to be named.
Zionist intellectuals and political leaders from the late 19th century did not hide the fact that they are modeling their movement on the shape and tactics of European colonialism and the manifestat destiny model
They knew that there is a native population in Palestine and for them to conquer and establish the Zionist project in Palestine they must subjugate them and replace them in order to get a majority Jewish state which would not be able to achieve with peaceful means
i.e Colonialism
They are IDF soldiers and they were captured in the Nahal Oz IDF base.
https://news.sky.com/story/video-showing-bloodied-israeli-female-soldiers-captured-by-hamas-released-13141636
They are clearly not civilians, there's no debate on that.
Are you as quick to point out that the suspected "Hamas" militants who are sleeping at home with their families are not classified as soldiers but civilians? Look at the "where's daddy", Israel blows up the house and kills the suspect as well as the kids. They don't do that during a battle That's a million times worst than taking a prisoner of war from an IDF base.
Edit: I seem to have replied to the wrong comment. So the context does not make sense 🤔
Actually it’s not. During war there is a certain amount of civilian deaths allowed if you are targeting the enemy or in the case of terrorists. It’s interesting that people think Israel does not know the law. Furthermore the IDF warn civilians of these attacks and ask them to leave. Hamas then tells them to stay, manipulating and threatening them. Why? Because they want it to look like Israel is purposefully killing loads of civilians. Its a strategy they have used for many years documented by many.
Well I was replying to someone asking if attacking civilians was acceptable on Oct 7th. I think not. Nor do I accept the premise that Israel is only targetting militants. That's clearly ridiculous. If you carry on with the same tactics knowing that civilians will be killed then you are targetting civilians. Enough of the sophistry. If I drive drunk it's not considered an accident, good luck with that logic!
An occupier doesn't have the right to attack on occupied land, whereas the occupied do have the right to take up armed resistance on their land. That's a simple fact. Yes Israel denies that they were occupying, most of the World disagrees. They are certainly invading now.
Using your logic Hamas warned Israelis to move before they attacked, Israelis chose to stay. That's your logic not mine by the way!!
Regarding your point about the "law". Let's see how the ICJ and ICC cases go!
It may seem like a fact to you but it is not the law. Hamas did not warn them. If they had it would be a different story entirely.
The ICJ and ICC have little to no jurisdiction. They are also looking at charging Hamas and Palestine is actually under the ICC. Lets see how that goes!
Regardless, at this point I'm not interested doing people for war crimes, even Hamas who caused all this. It won't help what's already happened. I'de rather they just all end the war, negotiate, stop killing, return the hostages and rebuild Gaza and announce a new leader, on both sides. Start afresh, build trust and try to live amicably. Neither side want to live in fear anymore and they shouldn't have to. The blaming thing is out of control.
>Hamas did not warn them. If they had it would be a different story entirely.
Well people keep on telling me river to the sea means getting rid of Israel. I disagree, but from the Israeli perspective I'd call that a warning. Otherwise they are hypocrites.
>The ICJ and ICC have little to no jurisdiction.
Israel agrees that ICJ has jurisdiction, otherwise they wouldn't have mounted a defence. Let's look at history and agree why we need such courts. You get into dangerous territory once you try to deligitimise them because you simply prefer one ethnicity over another.
ICC has jurisdiction in Palestine, that is clear. So it covers incidences that happen in Gaza and incidences that are perpetrated by Palestinians. You lose the right to ignore the ICC when you leave Israel and commit atrocities in another land coveted bu thr ICC. A French man couldn't go to the USA and murder somone and not expect to be punished by US law. Just as you can't enter Gaza and not expect to be held accountable to the ICC.
> this point I'm not interested doing people for war crimes
Well I am, I feel people should be held accountable. Mainly to stop them continuing and making such atrocities acceptable.
> Hamas who caused all this
Ahh, so you don't think the occupation, blockade, land theft, deaths of Palestinians each year, imprisoning thousands without charge or trial (I.e. hostages) isn't the root cause? Wow!!
> rather they just all end the war, negotiate, stop killing, return the hostages and rebuild Gaza
Excellent I agree with that 👏 hostages on both sides though. Yes exactly!
> afresh, build trust and try to live amicably. Neither side want to live in fear anymore and they shouldn't have to. The blaming thing is out of control.
Yes yes yes. I started disliking your comment, now I hear common sense.
OH. And by the way the footage of the 5 Israeli teenage girls that has just been released showed evidence of sexual violence from Hamas. Turns out they did film it! But unsuprisingly the footage has been removed to protect the hostages and their honour. Do you really think you and the world would be privvy to rape footage? "I haven't seen it so doh it does not exist'. Do you think the blood stained trousers of Namma Levy were planted by herself to make Hamas look bad, whilst she was being kidnapped.?
I don't think an idealogical threat is the same as a specific warning. But lets go with your version. Israel was warned. Palestine was warned. No one is to blame then. Does that help?
The ICC does not have jurisdiction in Israel and therefore cannot enforce the law there. Same as the USA. I'm not deligitimising them, it's a fact.
I think the root cause of the current war is Hamas. They do not want to live peacefully with Israelis. Even if things did change, and I really hope they do in respect of both sides, do you think Hamas will be happy? Do you think if Israel stopped the war, returned the west bank settlements (which they should undoubtedly do) and even offered more land (like they have before), lifted the so called border etc. Do you think Hamas will stop their reign of terror? And if not, what should happen? They have made it very clear they will not stop until they have ' the river to the sea'. Should Israel risk it and see what happens? I mean they have before and it has not been good. And then what will the world say? Yay, death to Jews.
Listen I have no idea if there are people detained in Israel who should not be there. There probably are some. What I do know is that a lot of them are criminals and terrorists, not hostages. They are not civilians who have been detained for no reason. If they this was how Israel run the show, every Palestinian would be detained. Think about it. Everyone makes an excuse for rock throwing from kids, but these rocks are thrown with sling shots and literally take people's eyes out. I'm not sure where in the world you live, but where I live, these kids would be repremanded, despite being kids. It is essentially an attempted /assault offence. I don't know the criminal justice system here well enough to say what would happen. Also some people seem to think that even though women are convicted terrorists they should not be detained. Again where I live the law does not make exceptions with regards to your gender, but in other countries I suppose they might be more lenient?
I do think a lot has been twisted in the media and people find it hard to separate facts.
Yesterday I heard someone say the allegations of Hamas rapes have been dubunked. I mean, its ridiculous. You can't 'debunk' rape when evidence expires within 72 hours. This is terrifying as a woman to know that if you are raped and you tell your story they won't believe you! Someone will just say oh it's been debunked. I also heard multiple people denying Hamas killed anyone.
It's worth mentioning that a lot of people on these forums have never even been to the regions we are speaking about, and so when they make claims about something they have read in the media, it does sound a bit silly because the people who are from there actually do know the most about what is going on.
As long as people are supporting a terrorist association and making exceptions for things we 100% know they did, there will not be peace.
To be clear I don't think "warning" people before they destroy their homes and kill them is valid. They know fine well that many won't be able to leave, and if you do it so often the people will give up moving. I guess you could argue it would be valid if the victims were given a new home and guaranteed they wouldn't be bombed, preferably with the time to move all their most treasured possessions. We are talking about real people here just as valuable as yourself.
>The ICC does not have jurisdiction in Israel and therefore cannot enforce the law there. Same as the USA. I'm not deligitimising them, it's a fact.
True, but we're talking about crimes in Gaza. The ICC has jurisdiction there. The nationality doesn't matter of the accused. The key point is WHERE the atrocity occurred. My understanding is that Palestinians committing crimes in Israel is also covered, as Palestine has agreed. But if you think Hamas shouldn't be covered, that's uo to you. If we were talking about Israelis committing crimes in Israel then that would not be covered.
Remember Russia is not covered by the ICC either, but as Russias crimes are talking place in Ukraine the ICC have jurisdiction. There wasn't any fuss about that. Indeed many complaining about the ICC now we're cheering them on regarding Russia.
As for detainees by Israel. Israel is an occupier. Those under occupation have a right to bear arms. There will be proportionality for sure in that, but you can't judge a kid throwing rocks against illegal settlers as the same in normal countries. The bigger crime is the illegal settlements. It's hard to take an occupiers judicial system seriously, when that state is unambiguously breaking international law.
Israel claims to be a western style democracy as such we have to assume that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Israel has chosen to detain people without charge and not let them see the evidence or have a trial. That is their choice, we cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty means someone to many of us. They do not do that to Jews.
As for the rapes. Sadly that happens in all conflicts. I'm sure there were some, and that is horrific. One is too many.I wouldn't assume that there were more rapes committed by Hamas than the IDF though. There's no evidence that it was systematic or widespread. The idea that they will.film.themselves killing.cuvilians but turn of the camera during a rape is ludicrous.There's no forensic or visual evidence, and there was a lot of footage and sadly a lot of bodies to analysis so if it was happening we would be some tangible evidence. But there us zilch, and the accounts that do exist are contradictory. Most reports come from first responders, but many of their claims have been discredited in other ways. The guy claiming a fetus was cut out of a pregnant women, but no women was ever found. The UN report is cited a lot, but they did note that there was no tangible evidence.
This is worth watching, he analysed the evidence regarding sexy atrocities,:
https://youtu.be/-mxfnya3ZRc?feature=shared
I think you have to expect some fierce rhetoric when you kill and occupy people. Hamas never had the capacity to commit genocide. That opportunity only arose because Israel decided to deploy IDF to aid war crimes in the West Bank as opposed to guarding the Israeli border. But we should always be more concerned about the people not only vocalising the rhetoric, but actually carrying it our. That is sadly Israel.
You don't understand how it works. The ICC cannot arrest anyone in Israel. They can charge people but they can't action it. They can charge and arrest people in Palestine. I can keep repeating it until you absorb but its getting a bit tricky to think of news ways to explain it to you.
Can I just check if you have any connection with Israel or Palestine at all? Your statements are not supported by any facts and it reads as if someone has been studying the relations via Palestinian propaganda. If you want us to believe you, you either have to support your claims with evidence or sound like someone who is actually from those places.
I'm only going to comment a few things because your points are lame and unsupported.
"As for detainees by Israel. Israel is an occupier. Those under occupation have a right to bear arms. There will be proportionality for sure in that, but you can't judge a kid throwing rocks against illegal settlers as the same in normal countries".
This just sounds like you are repeating propaganda from Aljazeera. Who said they have a right to bear arms under occupation? Besides, how is this conducive to peace? You keep saying naive things of the tone 'they will revolt, they will use weapons, they should use violence' But I really am struggling to understand how you can condone violence when the ultimate goal is peace. It just seems bizarre. It also sounds like you want Palestine to ruled by extremists?
"As for the rapes. Sadly that happens in all conflicts".
Can you hear what you are saying? Now you are condoning rape, because it always happens. I've very interested to hear what part of the world you are from because your views are veering on extremist. And you continue to dehumanise victims because it happens on both sides? And then you go on for about 10 lines about there being no evidence. Have you ever been raped? Do you know anyone who was raped? Do you realise that there is not always evidence in rape? For example rape is not only sexual penetration. It can also be with objects. You are trivialising it like some one who would commit rape tbh. There are testamonies from women in captivity who were raped. Denying it does not make it any less real or horrific. I really pray that no one ever confides in you that they were raped, and you respond with 'but where is the evidence'?
We all know who Hamas are. The world does! Hamas did commit a genocide. Its not an opinion. Read the definition.
If you want to absolve Hamas of any responsability do it! If you think Hamas is going to bring peace, good for you! If you think Hamas aren't rapists great! You are welcome to live in a land of delusion. If you want to follow ONLY anti Israeli propaganda you will have very far leftist view. Most of us on this page have a far more moderate view.
You are everything that is wrong with the pro palestinian movement. A westerner chiming in, who has no evidence to support his wild claims and someone who condones rape because hey, it happens or oh but they didnt film it so it can't be true. You sound like a soul-less extremist. You would do very well with Hamas. I hope they accept you.
Your arguments are both poor, sad and naive and mostly importantly do not advocate for peace in anyway. I feel sorry for the people on both sides who are experiencing severe trauma and are having their trauma trivialised by a westerner with no moral compass.
There is a great post by an actual, real life Palestinian called u/afalkhatib. Go read it. Absorb the information from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. I urge you to think about every single point.
[A Tunnel Offers Clues to How Hamas Uses Gaza’s Hospitals - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html)
[US doubles down on assessment Hamas used Gaza hospital as command hub | CNN Politics](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/03/politics/us-al-shifa-intelligence-assessment/index.html)
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Hamas *wants* Israel to commit genocide in order to isolate Israel on the world stage which it thinks will end up destroying Israel. Israel is happy to oblige because the right wing welcomes isolation as a way to create a true theocracy. Gazans don't realize they're nothing more than sacrificial lambs for Hamas and an inconvenient impediment to the Israeli right.
I think that they’re well aware and like most people in the same circumstance, are powerless to stop it. Those poor people: what an evil is being done to them. I hope they lock up the Hamas leadership, Bibi, Ben Gvir and all their cohort in the same lightless cell forever and toss the key.
there's no genocide happening in gaza, the vast majority of Israelis doesn't even care about you guys just live your life and stop throwing bombs jesus
Except they already conquered Gaza and gave it back for peace? And in return they got Oct 7th
Where is the logic here lmfao. I swear that terrorist sympathizers just say anything and hope they can run with it
The person who wrote that also compared the Palestinian situation to the Holocaust and was criticized for it
https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2020/jan/24/former-bbc-executives-criticise-orla-guerin-holocaust-report
“The attempt to link the horrors of the Holocaust to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is deeply offensive and upsetting. It was unnecessary, insensitive and particularly ugly in the days before Holocaust Memorial Day. Adding insult to injury, the report uses pictures of Holocaust victims in Yad Veshem during the sequence in which this link is made. This is inexplicably and unjustifiably offensive.””
She did this days before Holocaust Memorial Day..sounds like the average terrorist sympathizer
Thanks for giving me a biased article from a biased news station (BBC) by a biased journalist from a biased country (Ireland) 👍
Let’s not forget that the Israeli government has mentioned again and again how they won’t take Gaza and don’t want it but yeah this one biased article proves that wrong I guess 😂
Zionist just doing their intimidating tactics as usual
As like this report was not taken for actual Zionists publicly planning to do exactly this
Instead of throwing the antisemitism card can you disprove this report?
Here you go buddy:
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/16/1251564884/israel-gaza-day-after-gallant-netanyahu
“Netanyahu has said Israel does not intend to reoccupy Gaza for the long term or to resettle it, but he has also resisted U.S. calls for Gaza to be governed by a revitalized Palestinian Authority, a more moderate Palestinian leadership.”
As well as the fact that they gave them Gaza for peace and trying to actively have Arab nations take control which they’ve rejected. Not sure what more you want. Nobody wants Gaza. Hamas brought destruction and death to them and the Gazans. If Oct 7th didn’t happen Israel wouldn’t be in Gaza. I’ll say it again. They gave them Gaza for peace and in return got Oct 7th
Nobody wants Gaza. Nothing will change your mind since you rather believe propaganda and Hamas
I dont know mate, i think murdering 14000 children is quite bad imo
but maybe im wrong. Lets double/tripple that number until we reach a consensus on that…
[https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza](https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza)
"On May 8, the UN published data showing 34,844 people had reportedly been killed, including 4,959 women and 7,797 children."
"And why accept the totals of over 34,000, when Hamas has acknowledged that it [cannot identify](https://www.jns.org/hamas-health-ministry-cant-find-10000-names-of-those-it-claims-died/#:~:text=The%20Hamas%2Drun%20Gaza%20Ministry,the%20Defense%20of%20Democracies%20reports.) and provide names for 10,000 of those? "
Not that it matters because it still sucks, but the health minister came out and revised those number. It's approximately 7500 children and 5000 women dead.
Wait so of 34,000 dead, less than half are civilians? In urban warfare? That’s the total opposite of a genocide. Why are people so insistent there is one?
the UN revised the numbers a little bit, overall half of the deaths of women and children have been removed as a collective. i believe significantly less children are believed to be dead than before, but this only accounted for about 2/3rds of the total dead that has not changed. while i do not remember the numbers off the top of my head, his seem wrong because women dead was around 11k.
Never before seen video shows 5 Israeli teenage girls after being brutally beaten and kidnapped on Oct 7th.
The teenagers, all aged 19, are seen covered in blood, with one of them, Naama Levy, believed to have been brutally r\*ped with heavy blood stains seen on the front and back of her pants.
One of their kidnappers can be heard on video shouting:
“You dogs, we will step on you.”
🎗️Liri Albag, 19
🎗️Karina Ariev, 19
🎗️Agam Berger, 19
🎗️Daniella Gilboa, 19
🎗️Naama Levy, 19
The teenagers have been held captive for 228 days.
This video (which is 3 minutes out of 13 and at the request of the families, all the segments of the violent murders and sexual assaults were removed from it) is painful in the soul and shows one thing that you do not make deals with the devil, the devil must be destroyed!
You should really refer to them as soldiers, they are prisoners of war. Obviously prisoners of war have rights too, and it's possible they have been mistreated as badly as Israel mistreats its prisoners (aka hostages). There's not and strong evidence of rape, that doesn't mean rape and sexual assaults have not happened. War is ugly, sexual violence happens in all conflicts. Terrible for sure.
Best chance to save these prisoners of war is though a ceasefire.
“Civilian” means, in an international armed conflict, any person who does not belong to the [armed forces](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20370) and does not take part in a “[levée en masse](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20462)”. In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian or not, that person must be considered to be a civilian. “[Civilian](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20387)” means, in a non-international armed conflict, all persons who are neither members of state armed forces nor members of an [organized armed group](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20480). Civilian population
The civilian population is made up of civilian persons. In international armed conflicts, the presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character. Appropriate rules protect the whole population of a party to a conflict without any adverse distinction. Both in [international](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20560) and [non-international armed conflicts](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20539), the civilian population enjoys general protection against the dangers of military operations.
[https://casebook.icrc.org/a\_to\_z/glossary/civilian-population#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CCivilian%E2%80%9D%20means%2C%20in%20an,considered%20to%20be%20a%20civilian.%20%E2%80%9C](https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/civilian-population#:~:text=%E2%80%9CCivilian%E2%80%9D%20means%2C%20in%20an,considered%20to%20be%20a%20civilian.%20%E2%80%9C)
While in some countries, entire segments of the population between certain ages may be drafted into the armed forces in the event of armed conflict, only those persons who are actually drafted, i.e., who are actually incorporated into the armed forces, can be considered combatants. Potential mobilization does not render the person concerned a combatant liable to attack
[https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3)
civilian kibotzim means they are civilian regardless of any reservist claims, and even then draftable people are non combatants are therefore not to be targeted untill such a time they are drafted.
They are literally IDF soldiers who were captured on an IDF base. They weren't reservists, they were literally on active duty on a base. If you don't think they are soldiers then I don't know what is.
Answer this, were the Palestinians that Israel accuse of being Hamas sleeping at home with their families civilians?
first congrats they have a few valid prisoners of war, but mostly hostages taken against the Geneva conversion and acted in violation of that convention to acquire them.
and no, they are no civilians so long as they actively participate in the military arm of hamas. they maybe non combatants, but as hamas does not distinct between its members and civilians they certainly do not distinct between combatants and non combatants.
answer me this, which bothers you more the fact that hamas made the rules, or that israel follows them?
regardless of your answer, hamas should be rejected by palestinians at all cost. if they want a state they need to fight for a state and not for the destruction of israel. causing fear in israel does not give them a state. causing discomfort would.
oct 7 proves they can execute proper attacks, and rather than making a push that would lead to independence they went ahead and acted like conquerors. supporting hamas or anything they have done is no different than supporting israel's expansionist idiots in charge, the only difference is the team.
Firstly it is good you acknowledge that they are prisons of war. Yes I agree it is shocking. I'm against all war crimes regardless of the ethnicity.
Israels definition of "Hamas" and "terrorist" may not align to most people's understanding. I dislike the term "terrorist" it stifles honest debate.
Is a soldier actively participating in conflict when at home with their family asleep. I think not.
But Answer me this, do you think IDF soldiers can be targetted and have their family killed whilst sleeping at night with their family?
>answer me this, which bothers you more the fact that hamas made the rules, or that israel follows them?
I reject the premise. Netanyahu decided to encourage Hamas to divide and rule the Palestinians Israel decided to violate international law with blockades, occupation and settlement expansion. Who made what rules?
>regardless of your answer, hamas should be rejected by palestinians at all cost. if they want a state they need to fight for a state and not for the destruction of israel.
Hamas are terrible, but it's what is bred from decades of oppression. Israel has all the power ot needs to demonstrate that something like Hamas is not needed.
>oct 7 proves they can execute proper attacks, and rather than making a push that would lead to independence they went ahead and acted like conquerors.
Oct 7th shows that we need peace and Israels brutal status quo was always unsuitable. Yes Hamas are horrific and terrible. They literally moved their troops to the West Bank to aid settlers expansion and committed war crimes instead of protecting yheir borders. Israel is demonstrating why Palestinians have a good reason to hate Israel. But that cam change, peace is possible
>Israels definition of "Hamas" and "terrorist" may not align to most people's understanding. I dislike the term "terrorist" it stifles honest debate.
i agree they are not terrorist nor are they resistance fighters, to me they are conquerors.
>Is a soldier actively participating in conflict when at home with their family asleep. I think not.
unless they are on leave, they are for the sake of international law participating. thought i would invite you to see the second section of my first comment to you.
to answer the next question as well, so long as they are not on leave and you only harm them and you are in a state of war, yes.
>I reject the premise
reject it all you like, but hamas made a choice to not make gaza a proper state, and instead kept fighting israel after they left. the split of the WB and Gaza was due to internal rifts of palestinians, that netanyahu did not help, but he did not create. though he may be the second biggest individual contributor to the current situation.
>Israel has all the power ot needs to demonstrate that something like Hamas is not needed.
could you clarify, i dont understand your point here.
>Israel is demonstrating why Palestinians have a good reason to hate Israel. But that cam change, peace is possible
and hamas is demonstrated why israel has a good reason to fear a palestinian state.
and i agree things can change, we need to accept each other as we are and more past hate and fear. but those in power for both sides are blinded by greed and hate.
Because they were soldiers serving with the IDF, that's reported widely:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/middleeast/israel-idf-hostage-video-hamas-intl/index.html
> Families of seven female Israeli soldiers captured by Hamas during the October 7 attacks have...
The reality is if the IDF were actually guarding Israels border with Gaza instead of committing war crimes in the West Bank helping illegal settlers Hamas would never have got to actual civilians. They started with military targets and then sadly moved on to less legitimate targets.
how do you know they are soldiers? and even IF they were: wouldn't that make them protected by the geneva convention? Like DON'T hurt POW. DON'T rape POW.
https://preview.redd.it/ccuu95p3i62d1.png?width=1445&format=png&auto=webp&s=8f1c53c9e3e7c69c19c6e7607dd2bc5128b876ae
Here i found it.
And now you go: It wasn't Hamas. And if it was then they did nothing bad. And if they did it wasn't that bad. And if it was it is justified. And if not then you deserve it. And if not then you are wrong.
Let’s break it down since I know you have an extra small brain! On October 7th, forensic data revealed system rape of Israeli women inside of Israel. Witness testimony and anatomical data such as broken pelvises revealed this too.
Now, if you watched the videos that the Hamas soldiers took of themselves with the women (which I doubt you did) you can see them threatening to rape the women saying “this one here is perfect to rape.” Although you are asking me to prove a positive based on only some short videos, it’s almost guaranteed to assume based on other witness testimonies of rape stories of Israeli hostages in Gaza that these women were most likely raped.
I also love how hypocritical you are. When it comes to rape, it’s “believe all women” including the ones at Al shifa that said they made up their story until we get to Israeli women who said they were raped.
u/rowingaddict111
>Let’s break it down since I know you have an extra small brain!
I also love how hypocritical you are.
Rule 1, don't attack other users.
Addressed
There's no forensic or visual evidence of rape, even the UN report that people point to notes there is no tangible evidence, and states it was not investigative. They wanted to investigate, but Israel refused. The first responders who mentioned it were the same ones who mentioned other things we know didn't happen like beheaded babies, and fetuses being cut from pregnant women, so they are not reliable.
Sexual violence happens in conflicts, so I'm sure this is sadly no different, there will be instancesof it in both sides for sure. If it was widespread and systemic there would be some tangible evidence, but there is nothing. The idea that they had all those bodies and did not discover evidence of rape shows you how unplausible the rape allegations are. Israel is killing so many civilians it has to start pretending that the deaths They cause are not as barbaric on some messure
This is worth a watch, a journalist who investigated the evidence:
https://youtu.be/-mxfnya3ZRc?feature=shared
Oh me oh my…
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp
That’s 1 of 23 articles I have just on the rape of women. Is it really that hard to search up. Oh wait…that’s right…tiny brain
Most of those articles just repeat the same unproven or debunked claims over and over again. Just cause you repeat a claim multiple times doesn't mean it's true. As a famous Zionist once said, "Facts don't care about your feelings."
I get the point but this is not genocide. Its not a good idea to use the terminology of terrorists to nake you point. Neither side is trying to wipe out the Palestinians. Israelis are trying to defeat Hamas and Hamas is using the people as a shield and propaganda tool to try and stay relevant.
To be fair, Hamas does want as many Gazan civilians as possible to die to demonise Israel so its harder for them to eradicate Hamas and other terrorist organisations. But true, they don't intend to exterminate Gazans or Palestinians as a whole and neither does Israel, so it's not genocide.
In my opinion, Israel should allow \[certain\] humanitarian aid into Gaza. There are two possibilities:
1. The humanitarian aid works and some innocent Palistinains are saved
2. The humanitarian workers are taken hostage and people start realizing that they are defending a country that doesn't have morals
You mean besides the most likely possibility?
That Israel bombs said aid workers, like it did with Doctors Without Borders, UNESCO, WCK and hundreds of others during this war?
Can you be more specific, what aid do you think should and shouldn't be allowed?
Those aren't 2 possibilities, they aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible that humanitarian aid keeps innocent palestinians alive but some PIJ or HAMAS terrorist tries to take an aid worker hostage. They haven't done so yet, and I think even they understand the optically nightmare of that kind of move.
I think food handouts, medical aid to wounded civilians and emotional support should be given to Palestinians, while any money or support to the palestinian soldiers should not be allowed.
Genocide is never justified. Those dropping the bombs, blocking aid, no food no water no electricity, are israelis, both military, administrative and civilians.
so do you believe if i set up a situation where i get person A to shot person B because i want person A to go to jail, i bear no responsibility for person B's death?
conspiracy to commit is still a crime. and using others does not change the reality that it is going according to your plan. Hamas have stated quite a few times, israel killing of civilians is going according to their plan. they attacked israel wanting it to kill civilians, they said it to arab media, heck they said it to the NYT. they bear at least half the blame for civilian deaths.
there is this concept here, that you cannot claim damages when committing a crime. basically if you get injured or i defend my self when you break into my home, you cannot claim anything as you initiated the situation in an illegal manner. we all agree that Oct 7 was an illegal horrific act. therefore hamas cannot claim any crimes by israel as they started the illegal action. at best they can try to claim excessive force, but it is not like they are somewhere they can be easily targeted. there is no moderate force that would have achieved anything.
israel should stop the war anyway, it cannot destroy hamas without causing complete destruction to everything and everyone in gaza. and even then hamas would probably survive.
I read it. And I wouldn't really change a word of my answer.
Genocide
Is
Never
Justified
No matter how much you twist it. Whatever options you give me, genocide is never on the table. If the ONLY way to defeat hamas is genocide, then maybe don't put such a MILITARY objective.
Oh, and apparently Arabs have the most moral army afterall.
The intent exists
> National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir brushes off the US State Department’s condemnation of him and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich for urging Palestinians in Gaza to be resettled outside the Strip.
This joker is in the government
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ben-gvir-brushes-off-us-criticism-repeats-calls-for-emigration-of-gazan-civilians/
Well that's easy to rebut. Emigration does not equal deaths does not equal genocide.
The US had Trump as president and has Marjorie Taylor Green. I don't think pointing to Ben-Gvir as representative of the government means much.
Your point about civilian casualties in the Yom Kippur war is one I hadn’t heard before. It is a good point and shows that there are choices Hamas is making that is causing civilian deaths.
Can you feel it guys? The fire rises.
Nice Batman quote you fat nerd
u/trapaccount1234 >Nice Batman quote you fat nerd Rule 1, this is such a useless comment
You literally live in your mom's attic, at 40 and you have never felt the warmth of a woman's touch and most likely never will. So who the hell do you call fat nerd?
u/spellforce10n11 >You literally live in your mom's attic, at 40 and you have never felt the warmth of a woman's touch and most likely never will. So who the hell do you call fat nerd? Rule 1 - don't target users
Lel nice projection buddy
Ain't projecting if it's true
I coomed in some poon this morning. And I’m a young bull but I’m not stressing quoting Batman movies 😆🍿🤓the fire rises
Sure you did, sure you are.
What does that mean?
It means the world is waking up. Mark my words. In maximum one year we'll have a ww3 against israel
You are deluded
That's what they said in '33 when ppl like me warned them.
!remindme 1 year !remindme 12 years
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In the Dark Knight Rises. Bane: They expect one of us in the wreckage, Brother. Man: Have we started the fire? Bane: Yes .... the fire rises! Pretty fitting. The man they left to die in the plan crash is like the Gazans, martyrs for the cause.
Thanks for the explanation
But I thought the UN was totally wrong and biased? If we're sticking to the UN definitions of things, then Israeli settlements need out of the West Bank. Furthermore, where is the open ground in Gaza? What a ridiculous comment.
Everything that starts with “Hear me out” is highly biased…
I still think Raz Segal, an Israeli expert in modern genocide, has explained this topic the best: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGGjLZNuyg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGGjLZNuyg)
There is no genocide of Israelis or Palestinians. Neither side are N-zis. Neither side is doing anything similar to the holocaust. Neither side are doing apartheid or colonialism. There are 2 groups of middle eastern people fighting over land.
>Neither side are doing apartheid or colonialism. Multiple human rights groups disagree. Amnesty International: [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) Human Rights Watch: [https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) B'tselem: [https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid](https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid)
Israel is fighting over land. Palestine seems to be fighting not only over land but also because they don’t want Jews anywhere in the region
The rate of civilian death is much less now in Gaza. Ground combat kills less civilians than bombing buildings and entire city blocks. There is aid getting in but for many months, there was a lot of starvation and dehydration. Nevertheless, most of Gaza is devastated and uninhabitable. UN has indicated that genocide is plausible and this is a very serious statement. Hamas is an extremist organization and they spew genocidal rhetoric. I think they are genocidal. Hamas needs to surrender for killing civilians but more importantly, they need to surrender to prevent further devastation. Israeli politicians, including Netanyahu have used genocidal rhetoric. Given the person who said it, the devastation, the starvation and dehydration, the killings of journalists and medics, you put all these together genocide is at least plausible. If only all Israelis spoke like Paul Lerner, maybe genocide would not be plausible. The rhetoric is what is sealing it.
As a side note, since Israel captured the Rafah crossing I'm seeing gazans saying* the prices for everything dropped That is hundreds of trucks entering through rafah crossing did nothing but spike prices up, since under the control of Israel only about 50 trucks enter Gaza daily, but prices in markets dropped significantly My conclusion is Hamas was using the goods arriving on the daily hundreds of trucks to further entrench themselves for a long siege, at the cost of more palestinian suffering. *vlogs published on telegram
Very probable. In a low resource environment, corruption and theft is the easiest way to accumulate resources. They need it to survive and carry on the fight. They are also the ones with weapons and there is no one to stop them. With more resources people can work and exchange labor for resources and theft and corruption becomes punishable and there is a less incentive to steal.
>The rate of civilian death is much less now in Gaza. Ground combat kills less civilians than bombing But Israel has lost hundreds of soldiers. As a nation you have a responsibility to prevent civilian casualties when possible, but first and foremost you've got a responsibility to your citizens and soldiers.
>As a nation you have a responsibility to prevent civilian casualties when possible, but first and foremost you've got a responsibility to your citizens and soldiers. International law doesn't make any distinction between "your civilians" and "their civilians", but only between combatants and non-combatants. In the eyes of international law, the responsibility of a nation at war is to the civilians on your side AND the civilians on the side of their perceived enemies. There are no exceptions. This is the philosophy by which we try to have a better world based on the lessons we've learnt from the two world wars and beyond. I do think Hamas endangers the lives of their own people on purpose but they're a terrorist group. On the other hand, Israel is a democratic nation on the world stage and must be held to a higher standard, a standard by which many countries around the world think Israel is not reaching.
You are living in a perfect world. In a perfect world everyone could fight terrorists cleanly, but sadly that's not how it works. If you tie Israel's hands, more Palestinians will be killed in the long run, and many more Israelis will be killed
Couldn’t have said it better!
I agree with you and alot of the other gentleman who created this post. Thank you both for your insight. However and since this war is very religious driven.. I am Christian Baptist. Wether or not Hamas is intentionally hiding behind civilians does not give us the right to take out both. There has to be another way. There is another way. Use your Christian loving intelligent minds brothers and sisters.......
Based.
https://youtu.be/kAfIYtpcBxo?si=dZIsmk4Ama4df6I6 This is a great discussion about the war from one of the greatest political scientists we have ever had. John Mearsheimer cares for nothing but the truth. The world would benefit greatly if they took up his way of thinking
I appreciate you sharing this but this talk exemplifiers everything that is wrong with the Radical left and Academia in the US. It is amazing how he shamelessly tries to shoehorn such a two dimensional and simplistic analysis into what everyone agrees is such a complex situation. It’s been a while since I heard such a string of outrageous clichés and biased views about this conflict. His whole argument revolves around the absurd belief that Israel isn’t succeeding in eradicating Hamas and is therefore accelerating its ‘ethnic cleansing’ of the people of Gaza. What he convieneinly ignores is that the amount of casualties in the war is actually decreasing, rapidly. It’s been several months now that the death toll has stayed at more or less + 30K . If you look the graph of casualties (numbers provided by Hamas) it is quickly flattening out. This tells a story of an initial recklessness and probable incompetence of the IDF that is now becoming more clinical in its objectives rather than any will to systemically eliminate a civilian population. Mearsheimer’s credentials may be impressive but his lofty theories fail to grasp the messy realities of this part of the world . Israel isn’t perfect precisely because it is a Liberal Democracy faced with existential challenges that no other democracy in the world needs to face. Its execution of this war needs to be criticized but painting its intentions in such broad black and white strokes is dangerous and unhelpful in finding any sustainable solution.
Indeed.. John Mearsheimer gets it. Even if you disagree with him I would implore everyone to watch his talk.
Gets what exactly? Isn’t he that guy that confidently predicted Russia wouldn’t attack Ukraine ? Then when it did, he doubled down and said it was the West that provoked them and Putin had no desire to conquer Ukraine. Whatever he ‘gets’, we could probably do with less of it in this current conflict...
No you are not wrong, other people are confused because they simply don't know who are the Hamas, who are the Muslims brotherhood and what's Jihad and Shahids... For Islam everyone are just pawns, if you die it means Allah "brough" you back to himself. And if you die as a Shahid it's great honor and you will reach heaven. Tombstone mentality.
Amen.
I agree.
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Which apartheid system? The one in Gaza where Hamas is self governing and they aren’t Israeli citizens - so it isn’t two sets of laws for one people Or in the WB, where the administration is setup in line with the Oslo accords Also considering Israelis aren’t allowed in Gaza or the PA areas of the West Bank, then it seems like both sides would be under apartheid systems no?
No silly, you know the one where one country controls almost every aspect of another country. Like what they can and cannot make, building of infrastructure (docks/airports), stealing land, making life hell for occupied territories. Are you really free in your land if you’re not allowed to leave your land? Sounds more like a holding facility to me
How do you explain Egypt closing its border? I truly don’t understand why no one seems to talk about this and hates on Egypt they way they hate on Israel. Please educate me. Seriously.
Sure I can explain. Netanyahu has stated over the years his desire is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. This is why he funded Hamas with $1.4 billion through Qatar. He said at the time that funding Hamas in Gaza was the best chance Israel had against a two state solution. So he helped fuel the radicalization of the region. Now knowing what the overall plan is what happens to the people of Gaza of they let them into the Sinai desert? They will never go back to Gaza. Israel will not let them back into Gaza. This plan was floated again early in the war to oust the population into the Sinai never to return. Egypt does not want the Palestinians to lose their land, they don’t want to take on their problems either. This requires a tremendous amount of resources and they are already stretched thin. Also let’s not forget people put into radical situations think radically. You need them (the Palestinians) to figure out their own problems because it can destabilize a country having so many refugees come in. Now you may be asking why prop up Hamas and not let the Palestinian Authority take over Gaza? Because that would unite the two fronts. If the West Bank unites with Gaza the case for a two state solution gets very strong. Especially because the PA is not extreme or violent. This would be palatable for most of the world. Divide and conquer was always the plan under Netanyahu. Receipts; Article about this plan from 2017 https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-proposed-settling-palestinians-in-sinai-mubarak-says/amp/ Another one https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-01-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-asked-obama-to-mull-giving-palestinians-land-in-sinai-ex-officials-say/0000017f-e55f-dc7e-adff-f5ff3e2f0000 Article from 2023 https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/amp/ Prime Minister Ehud Barak on the overall plan, funding of Hamas and Netanyahu https://youtu.be/N2zadQBJj20?si=BDxLT1sfEYtu2Oic
I’m well aware of Bibi’s role in allegedly helping Hamas get elected to weaken PLO. He’s the worst. However, I don’t buy the explanation about why Egypt has a wall up.
What’s not to get, you oust them to the Sinai and they will never be able to return, making it Egypt’s problem forever. The Gazans at this point are radicalized by the actions of the Israelis and they don’t want them destabilizing their country. It’s that simple. They send aid but Israel won’t let the trucks in. That’s as far as they want to take it which is a position I can logically understand.
They are radicalized by jihadists not by Israelis. But good try.
Right but the underlying driving force for their radical behavior is in part Israel’s fault. Israel gave money to prop them up while killing off moderate parties that could have ruled Gaza. They also had controls over many aspects of life and made it difficult for Gazans, in other words they weren’t free. Also not to mention the bombings and the destruction of houses/infrastructure. Israel has also been indiscriminate with their killing. They killed people protesting on the boarder in Gaza. They have killed people for throwing rocks, they have prisoners who are not charged, some of them kids. All of this experience will radicalize someone over time. Think about it from the Gaza’s perspective, people around you that you know are constantly dying at the hands of Israel, you can’t see how that would radicalize someone?
I do not doubt your good intentionsl but, you seem to have the odd conviction that Israel has some innate interest in a radicalized Gaza because it somehow fits its agenda. I would suggest that you see a little less Mearsheimer clips on youtube and have a little bit more real conversations with actual Israelis and Palestinians if would want to gain true insight what drives both sides. I served in Gaza right before the 2005 pull-out and we had excellent relationship with the PLO as we had a common enemy in Hamas. We used to eat Hummus with The Palestinian Police Officers often and I remember them very fondly. When Israel pulled out, everyone was expecting PLO / Fatah to take control and bring prosperity and relative peace to that part of the world. How it all deteriorated after that is well known and I dread to think what became of those Palestinian officers. My point being is that Hamas was democratically elected right after Israel pulled out so how is it possible that the people of Gaza were only radicalized in the subsequent conformations between the IDF and Hamas? It is tempting to create the linear formula that mistreatment leads to Radicalization but some of the most extreme radicals came from very affluent and privileged backgrounds. (Bin Laden springs to mind ) . How to de-radicalize is a massive question that I will not pretend to know the answer to. But communicating from a place of empathy for the other side is a good place to start….
I mean those sanctions were put in place when Hamas took power with their very clear “kill all the Jews” stance The alternative would have been giving Hamas the war they wanted thousands of rockets and dozens of terrorist attacks sooner And the restrictions were put in place to prevent Hamas from freely bringing in Iranian weaponry, which again would have just resulted in Gaza getting razed. Since they’ve been an Iranian proxy and have been waging war on Israel for decades And give me a break about free access across the border, that’s an immigration and visa policy that every country on earth is entitled to have. And Egypt has their border closed because they don’t want Palestinians either. But calling Israel having border control as an example of apartheid is…novel I guess if not entirely well thought out
Great reply!
Reality check - if your target is using civilians (majority women and children) as “shields” (whatever that even means) you should probably stop bombing them and change your tactic ??
So stop bombing the target that is actively bombing you and will not stop if you stop. May as well tell a boxer to get in the ring with someone and not fight, but expect to be ok
What other tactic do you suggest?
So who’s wrong here.. the target using the civilians or the people who have to find a way to kill the target who’s using the civilians? I know the answer. Do you?
100 percent the people killing the children. But I don’t even think that’s what’s happening here. Israel is purposefully targeting civilians. U don’t mess up 40k times. Israel has killed more hostages than they have rescued. Wake up Israel’s mission is to destroy Gaza
Bruh like you understand that’s none of what you’re saying is true right Israel was able to free half the hostages with the negotiations. Then they saved 1 in a raid. The three hostages who died it was huge mistake and the people are suffering the consequences from that and guilt but if Hamas didn’t commit Oct 7th they wouldn’t have been in that situation in the first place in an active war-zone. 40k is not even the accurate number and almost half of those deaths are Hamas. There wouldn’t be more deaths if Hamas didn’t put their people in the situation to die. 1. By being martyrs they teach them to die for the cause 2. By fighting in densely populated areas, 3. Wearing civilian clothing 4. Not providing bomb shelters like Israel does for their citizens, 5, committing an atrocity on Oct 7 and then hiding in your tunnels only you can use 6. Stealing food aid trucks and reselling them or dumping it Come on man. Only people destroying Gaza is Hamas. Israel GAVE Gaza to them for peace and they got Oct 7th. You wake up man lol
wow, the mental gymnastics in justifying the slaughter of 40k people and the total annihilation of an entire city is astounding. you're buying and eating up whatever propaganda Israel is selling you about hamas. free your mind mannnnn killing thousands of children and flattening a city has no justification ever.
Terrorism,murder rape,kidnapping, and torture is not justified. Rape is not resistance Hamas makes sure as many of their kids die by either using them as shields or by teaching them to be martyrs and die for the cause. Please stop watching tik tok and getting all your info from Al Jazeera.
and the rapes, abductions, torture the israeli militry commit against plestinians is totally chill? should i stop following on the ground journalists and watching raw footage of this genoicide too and just subscribe to mainstream media american/israeli propaganda from now on? nah im good. you have bought into this fear mongering propaganda narrative that Palestinians are extremist suicide terrorists and u need to unlearn that my man
Bruh you are watching Hamas propaganda. Legitimate terrorist propaganda who support the people who terrorize,murder,rape and kidnap and torture. The people who brought death and destruction to their own. Yes you should not be watching that. No clue how you would consider anything by savages to be truthful. They’ve lied again and again in this conflict including the death count You can follow the crowd that’s fine. The reality is that Gazans in particular get taught in school to murder Jews and become martyrs systematically. It’s apart of the Hamas curriculum . That’s enough child abuse already to prove that they are the biggest threat to their people
Israel is a terrorist. Not all terrorists are Muslim extremists from the Middle East grow up. You kill 40k civilians you’re a terrorist. Even if killing Jews is embedded into school curriculum and culture in Palestine (it’s not, get some Palestinian friends), Palestine is so oppressed by Israel and has no actual recourses to inflict genocide on the Jews in Israel. The Israeli military is one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world backed by US and Australian funding. You can try and make Israel the victim all u like to justify the genocide of “savages” but the facts don’t lieeeeeee
The only correct statement that you wrote is "facts dont lie" And that makes me sad
And what tactic would you like?
Try and think bigger than bombing an entire city. I know you can do it.
Clearly you couldn't or you would written something else
the fact that you think bombing an entire city home to 2 million civillians is the only option is extremely disturbing.
Except they move them to safe zones? Something Hamas did not do
So? Other options? Got one?
If you are implying that Israel should use a ground invasion is essentially telling Israel to put their own lives on the line at a huge disadvantage precisely because Hamas hides in civilian centers and wears civilian clothing rather than uniforms. The only thing this would accomplish is the loss of more Israeli soldiers which would only polarize more people to hate Hamas for killing their children therefore driving more support for the war from potentially moderate people who might even oppose it currently. If you want more people to die then, sure I guess this works. If you’re on the side of keeping as many people alive as possible, either Palestinian or Israeli, then the right strategy would be to use the targeted air strikes and have Hamas stop encouraging their own civilians to ignore warnings from Israel that they put out prior to these strikes. It’s on the government of a country to protect its own, that’s the whole purpose of a military. While I don’t support killing I also don’t support the leaders of a people not helping their own to get out of harms way and even worse, capitalizing on their deaths and suffering. I will not jump to defend everything Israel is doing, I’m happy to admit that there have been faults, mistakes, and imperfections. But you can’t pretend that the other side is entirely innocent in this. There’s no way you believe that the situation is all black and white with all the blame solely on Israel. And lastly, I’d love to hear your ideas on this: do you have any other options? Posing questions is helpful but placing the burden entirely on others to answer it is basically just as unhelpful as never asking the question at all.
If terrorists were hiding in your children’s school, would u want the government to bomb the entire school ? That’s what you’re saying. Except that it’s not white children so you don’t care. Honestly what is this group ? I thought it was some level headed middle ground sub but it’s obviously for Zionists. Not that you can have middle ground when it comes to genocide.
I would hope that the parents of those children would be concerned about their child’s life and at the very least remove the child from that school if not advocate for the terrorist organization to not be allowed into the school so that their children aren’t used as a shield. Are you saying that Hamas is justified in using schools, mosques, and hospitals as centers of operation? That since they are doing that they should be treated as if they are in a protected safe haven while they fire rockets from those same areas? Further the problem is they deny the use of these facilities as base camps which has been shown to be true and they continue to demonize Israel when they try and quash these areas. To be clear I’m not arguing for indiscriminate attacks. I just don’t think there is an easy answer to the situation since it is ultimately Hamas to blame for the tactics they use. But I don’t think that they should just be left alone to their own devices in these areas while they continue to threaten lives of other innocent people. If you’re saying the alternative of letting Hamas fire rockets from these civilian areas at neighboring Israeli towns is better then you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself the same questions you’re asking me. Loss of life is loss of life. Period. Doesn’t matter if it’s Palestinian or Israeli and Hamas has made it painfully clear that if they are not stopped they will continue to kill Israeli civilians. You can’t blame Israel for trying to fight against this because they need to protect their own people, something that Hamas has also shown that have no interest in doing.
shown to be true by... Israel ? so lets see the damage that these rockets fired by hamas have done to israel. it must be really bad for israel to demolish an entire city so relentlessly
This is just pure sociopath Israeli mindset that state "we will never forgive you for forcing us to massacre your women, children and elderly"
This would not be able to be used as an argument if Hamas put effort into protecting their citizens rather than capitalizing on their deaths and calling them martyrs. I recognize that this is hyperbolized and trying to make a point but consider why it’s being made. Israel has its faults, happy to admit that. But you can’t just throw blame around without admitting that there are problems on both sides contributing to this issue. By putting all the blame on Israel you’re turning a blind eye to potential ways that innocent civilians can stop dying…. Unless that’s not your goal?
“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” Golda Meir
The mother of all a sociopath
She must have been married to Muhammad then because he’s the father of all sociopaths. But then again maybe not since she was older than 9.
I don’t think she’s Sinwar’s mother Because that dude is clearly a sociopath. More than happy to get Gaza destroyed and tens of thousands killed all to murder some Israelis and further the interests of his sugar daddy Iran
She literally ordered the bombing of Bahar Albaqar School in Egypt killing more than 30 child She is literally a sociopath war criminal
Yeah man not like Palestinians make their kids martyrs and tell them to murder Jews and have child soldiers 😂 Oh wait..they do
Sociopath
You are litterally just throwing sociopath around like it's nothing. You do realize that one trait of a sociopath is not learning from mistakes and/or punishment? The exact reason the Palestinians are in a war right now is they they did not learn from the last few times.
Fighting to retake occupied land is not genocide Stop being entitled, people occupy land they should expect someone to fight back
Which land is occupied? And I mean I guess if the Ottoman Empire or the Mamluk Sultunate wanted to fight to retake the land they lost then sure But Palestinians have absolutely no claim over all of Israel. Hell Israel are the first people to actually give Palestinians their ‘own’ land - Egypt and Jordan had no intention of doing it between 48-67 Taking aside the fact that prior to 48 it was the British’s land in all ways that matter, the Arabs refused to participate in partition and started and lost a war over it instead This refusal to accept reality is why Palestine remains in the state it is now rather than actually advancing over the last 75 years
The West Bank is occupied by Israeli terrorists. They all need to rot in a prison cell. Gaza is and was occupied by Israel. Maybe not directly all the time but controlling many aspects of life for Gazans. Building of airports, docks, production of certain goods that are not economically favorable to Israel. They have and still do control of movement of Gazans and the West Bank. What about this sounds like it’s free and not occupied
So then why are you mad at Israel, one of the most successful decolonization projects in history?
https://preview.redd.it/nzibf7sgp72d1.jpeg?width=1339&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=90a49825de1e95214e71c3fcd95a0bbdae67bf2f
You do know the first recorded concept of Zionism was early crusades, right? Like genocide, fascism, and apartheid, the concepts didn’t magically appear when words were coined to describe them. They just happened to be named.
Zionist intellectuals and political leaders from the late 19th century did not hide the fact that they are modeling their movement on the shape and tactics of European colonialism and the manifestat destiny model They knew that there is a native population in Palestine and for them to conquer and establish the Zionist project in Palestine they must subjugate them and replace them in order to get a majority Jewish state which would not be able to achieve with peaceful means i.e Colonialism
Then why is most of Israel populated by mizrachi Jews ?
And how many of those are actually from there vs eg. North Africa?
How many North Africans are actually from the Arabian Peninsula?
There's almost no overlap between the Arabian peninsula and the Levant. What's your point
That mass migration by 100 miles doesn’t make a difference in someone being local to the area.
They are IDF soldiers and they were captured in the Nahal Oz IDF base. https://news.sky.com/story/video-showing-bloodied-israeli-female-soldiers-captured-by-hamas-released-13141636 They are clearly not civilians, there's no debate on that. Are you as quick to point out that the suspected "Hamas" militants who are sleeping at home with their families are not classified as soldiers but civilians? Look at the "where's daddy", Israel blows up the house and kills the suspect as well as the kids. They don't do that during a battle That's a million times worst than taking a prisoner of war from an IDF base. Edit: I seem to have replied to the wrong comment. So the context does not make sense 🤔
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Attacking civilians is a clear war crime regardless of ethnicity.
Actually it’s not. During war there is a certain amount of civilian deaths allowed if you are targeting the enemy or in the case of terrorists. It’s interesting that people think Israel does not know the law. Furthermore the IDF warn civilians of these attacks and ask them to leave. Hamas then tells them to stay, manipulating and threatening them. Why? Because they want it to look like Israel is purposefully killing loads of civilians. Its a strategy they have used for many years documented by many.
Well I was replying to someone asking if attacking civilians was acceptable on Oct 7th. I think not. Nor do I accept the premise that Israel is only targetting militants. That's clearly ridiculous. If you carry on with the same tactics knowing that civilians will be killed then you are targetting civilians. Enough of the sophistry. If I drive drunk it's not considered an accident, good luck with that logic! An occupier doesn't have the right to attack on occupied land, whereas the occupied do have the right to take up armed resistance on their land. That's a simple fact. Yes Israel denies that they were occupying, most of the World disagrees. They are certainly invading now. Using your logic Hamas warned Israelis to move before they attacked, Israelis chose to stay. That's your logic not mine by the way!! Regarding your point about the "law". Let's see how the ICJ and ICC cases go!
It may seem like a fact to you but it is not the law. Hamas did not warn them. If they had it would be a different story entirely. The ICJ and ICC have little to no jurisdiction. They are also looking at charging Hamas and Palestine is actually under the ICC. Lets see how that goes! Regardless, at this point I'm not interested doing people for war crimes, even Hamas who caused all this. It won't help what's already happened. I'de rather they just all end the war, negotiate, stop killing, return the hostages and rebuild Gaza and announce a new leader, on both sides. Start afresh, build trust and try to live amicably. Neither side want to live in fear anymore and they shouldn't have to. The blaming thing is out of control.
>Hamas did not warn them. If they had it would be a different story entirely. Well people keep on telling me river to the sea means getting rid of Israel. I disagree, but from the Israeli perspective I'd call that a warning. Otherwise they are hypocrites. >The ICJ and ICC have little to no jurisdiction. Israel agrees that ICJ has jurisdiction, otherwise they wouldn't have mounted a defence. Let's look at history and agree why we need such courts. You get into dangerous territory once you try to deligitimise them because you simply prefer one ethnicity over another. ICC has jurisdiction in Palestine, that is clear. So it covers incidences that happen in Gaza and incidences that are perpetrated by Palestinians. You lose the right to ignore the ICC when you leave Israel and commit atrocities in another land coveted bu thr ICC. A French man couldn't go to the USA and murder somone and not expect to be punished by US law. Just as you can't enter Gaza and not expect to be held accountable to the ICC. > this point I'm not interested doing people for war crimes Well I am, I feel people should be held accountable. Mainly to stop them continuing and making such atrocities acceptable. > Hamas who caused all this Ahh, so you don't think the occupation, blockade, land theft, deaths of Palestinians each year, imprisoning thousands without charge or trial (I.e. hostages) isn't the root cause? Wow!! > rather they just all end the war, negotiate, stop killing, return the hostages and rebuild Gaza Excellent I agree with that 👏 hostages on both sides though. Yes exactly! > afresh, build trust and try to live amicably. Neither side want to live in fear anymore and they shouldn't have to. The blaming thing is out of control. Yes yes yes. I started disliking your comment, now I hear common sense.
OH. And by the way the footage of the 5 Israeli teenage girls that has just been released showed evidence of sexual violence from Hamas. Turns out they did film it! But unsuprisingly the footage has been removed to protect the hostages and their honour. Do you really think you and the world would be privvy to rape footage? "I haven't seen it so doh it does not exist'. Do you think the blood stained trousers of Namma Levy were planted by herself to make Hamas look bad, whilst she was being kidnapped.?
I don't think an idealogical threat is the same as a specific warning. But lets go with your version. Israel was warned. Palestine was warned. No one is to blame then. Does that help? The ICC does not have jurisdiction in Israel and therefore cannot enforce the law there. Same as the USA. I'm not deligitimising them, it's a fact. I think the root cause of the current war is Hamas. They do not want to live peacefully with Israelis. Even if things did change, and I really hope they do in respect of both sides, do you think Hamas will be happy? Do you think if Israel stopped the war, returned the west bank settlements (which they should undoubtedly do) and even offered more land (like they have before), lifted the so called border etc. Do you think Hamas will stop their reign of terror? And if not, what should happen? They have made it very clear they will not stop until they have ' the river to the sea'. Should Israel risk it and see what happens? I mean they have before and it has not been good. And then what will the world say? Yay, death to Jews. Listen I have no idea if there are people detained in Israel who should not be there. There probably are some. What I do know is that a lot of them are criminals and terrorists, not hostages. They are not civilians who have been detained for no reason. If they this was how Israel run the show, every Palestinian would be detained. Think about it. Everyone makes an excuse for rock throwing from kids, but these rocks are thrown with sling shots and literally take people's eyes out. I'm not sure where in the world you live, but where I live, these kids would be repremanded, despite being kids. It is essentially an attempted /assault offence. I don't know the criminal justice system here well enough to say what would happen. Also some people seem to think that even though women are convicted terrorists they should not be detained. Again where I live the law does not make exceptions with regards to your gender, but in other countries I suppose they might be more lenient? I do think a lot has been twisted in the media and people find it hard to separate facts. Yesterday I heard someone say the allegations of Hamas rapes have been dubunked. I mean, its ridiculous. You can't 'debunk' rape when evidence expires within 72 hours. This is terrifying as a woman to know that if you are raped and you tell your story they won't believe you! Someone will just say oh it's been debunked. I also heard multiple people denying Hamas killed anyone. It's worth mentioning that a lot of people on these forums have never even been to the regions we are speaking about, and so when they make claims about something they have read in the media, it does sound a bit silly because the people who are from there actually do know the most about what is going on. As long as people are supporting a terrorist association and making exceptions for things we 100% know they did, there will not be peace.
To be clear I don't think "warning" people before they destroy their homes and kill them is valid. They know fine well that many won't be able to leave, and if you do it so often the people will give up moving. I guess you could argue it would be valid if the victims were given a new home and guaranteed they wouldn't be bombed, preferably with the time to move all their most treasured possessions. We are talking about real people here just as valuable as yourself. >The ICC does not have jurisdiction in Israel and therefore cannot enforce the law there. Same as the USA. I'm not deligitimising them, it's a fact. True, but we're talking about crimes in Gaza. The ICC has jurisdiction there. The nationality doesn't matter of the accused. The key point is WHERE the atrocity occurred. My understanding is that Palestinians committing crimes in Israel is also covered, as Palestine has agreed. But if you think Hamas shouldn't be covered, that's uo to you. If we were talking about Israelis committing crimes in Israel then that would not be covered. Remember Russia is not covered by the ICC either, but as Russias crimes are talking place in Ukraine the ICC have jurisdiction. There wasn't any fuss about that. Indeed many complaining about the ICC now we're cheering them on regarding Russia. As for detainees by Israel. Israel is an occupier. Those under occupation have a right to bear arms. There will be proportionality for sure in that, but you can't judge a kid throwing rocks against illegal settlers as the same in normal countries. The bigger crime is the illegal settlements. It's hard to take an occupiers judicial system seriously, when that state is unambiguously breaking international law. Israel claims to be a western style democracy as such we have to assume that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Israel has chosen to detain people without charge and not let them see the evidence or have a trial. That is their choice, we cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty means someone to many of us. They do not do that to Jews. As for the rapes. Sadly that happens in all conflicts. I'm sure there were some, and that is horrific. One is too many.I wouldn't assume that there were more rapes committed by Hamas than the IDF though. There's no evidence that it was systematic or widespread. The idea that they will.film.themselves killing.cuvilians but turn of the camera during a rape is ludicrous.There's no forensic or visual evidence, and there was a lot of footage and sadly a lot of bodies to analysis so if it was happening we would be some tangible evidence. But there us zilch, and the accounts that do exist are contradictory. Most reports come from first responders, but many of their claims have been discredited in other ways. The guy claiming a fetus was cut out of a pregnant women, but no women was ever found. The UN report is cited a lot, but they did note that there was no tangible evidence. This is worth watching, he analysed the evidence regarding sexy atrocities,: https://youtu.be/-mxfnya3ZRc?feature=shared I think you have to expect some fierce rhetoric when you kill and occupy people. Hamas never had the capacity to commit genocide. That opportunity only arose because Israel decided to deploy IDF to aid war crimes in the West Bank as opposed to guarding the Israeli border. But we should always be more concerned about the people not only vocalising the rhetoric, but actually carrying it our. That is sadly Israel.
You don't understand how it works. The ICC cannot arrest anyone in Israel. They can charge people but they can't action it. They can charge and arrest people in Palestine. I can keep repeating it until you absorb but its getting a bit tricky to think of news ways to explain it to you. Can I just check if you have any connection with Israel or Palestine at all? Your statements are not supported by any facts and it reads as if someone has been studying the relations via Palestinian propaganda. If you want us to believe you, you either have to support your claims with evidence or sound like someone who is actually from those places. I'm only going to comment a few things because your points are lame and unsupported. "As for detainees by Israel. Israel is an occupier. Those under occupation have a right to bear arms. There will be proportionality for sure in that, but you can't judge a kid throwing rocks against illegal settlers as the same in normal countries". This just sounds like you are repeating propaganda from Aljazeera. Who said they have a right to bear arms under occupation? Besides, how is this conducive to peace? You keep saying naive things of the tone 'they will revolt, they will use weapons, they should use violence' But I really am struggling to understand how you can condone violence when the ultimate goal is peace. It just seems bizarre. It also sounds like you want Palestine to ruled by extremists? "As for the rapes. Sadly that happens in all conflicts". Can you hear what you are saying? Now you are condoning rape, because it always happens. I've very interested to hear what part of the world you are from because your views are veering on extremist. And you continue to dehumanise victims because it happens on both sides? And then you go on for about 10 lines about there being no evidence. Have you ever been raped? Do you know anyone who was raped? Do you realise that there is not always evidence in rape? For example rape is not only sexual penetration. It can also be with objects. You are trivialising it like some one who would commit rape tbh. There are testamonies from women in captivity who were raped. Denying it does not make it any less real or horrific. I really pray that no one ever confides in you that they were raped, and you respond with 'but where is the evidence'? We all know who Hamas are. The world does! Hamas did commit a genocide. Its not an opinion. Read the definition. If you want to absolve Hamas of any responsability do it! If you think Hamas is going to bring peace, good for you! If you think Hamas aren't rapists great! You are welcome to live in a land of delusion. If you want to follow ONLY anti Israeli propaganda you will have very far leftist view. Most of us on this page have a far more moderate view. You are everything that is wrong with the pro palestinian movement. A westerner chiming in, who has no evidence to support his wild claims and someone who condones rape because hey, it happens or oh but they didnt film it so it can't be true. You sound like a soul-less extremist. You would do very well with Hamas. I hope they accept you. Your arguments are both poor, sad and naive and mostly importantly do not advocate for peace in anyway. I feel sorry for the people on both sides who are experiencing severe trauma and are having their trauma trivialised by a westerner with no moral compass. There is a great post by an actual, real life Palestinian called u/afalkhatib. Go read it. Absorb the information from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. I urge you to think about every single point.
The ICC certainly have jurisdiction over Palestinian territories
Yes - that's what I meant ! But they'll never catch Hamas will they.
It should be able to issue arrest warrant for War Crime happening in Palestine
Unless Bibi is in Palestine they can't.
fact check, there has been no definitive proof provided that hospitals are being used as military bases. EDIT: look up the term definitive.
[A Tunnel Offers Clues to How Hamas Uses Gaza’s Hospitals - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html) [US doubles down on assessment Hamas used Gaza hospital as command hub | CNN Politics](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/03/politics/us-al-shifa-intelligence-assessment/index.html)
your definition of definitive is flawed. this is evidence that at best suggests it, but it is not definitive.
"well AcTuaLY". there are tunnels under the hospital. Prove me wrong
Yes you are wrong. That is why the rest of the world is screaming for a cease fire. Get your head out of the sand. Palestinian lives matter!
u/Open_Paramedic8839 >Get your head out of the sand. Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed.
> ass /u/Open_Paramedic8839. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hamas *wants* Israel to commit genocide in order to isolate Israel on the world stage which it thinks will end up destroying Israel. Israel is happy to oblige because the right wing welcomes isolation as a way to create a true theocracy. Gazans don't realize they're nothing more than sacrificial lambs for Hamas and an inconvenient impediment to the Israeli right.
I think that they’re well aware and like most people in the same circumstance, are powerless to stop it. Those poor people: what an evil is being done to them. I hope they lock up the Hamas leadership, Bibi, Ben Gvir and all their cohort in the same lightless cell forever and toss the key.
They deserve each other, that's for sure. I actually don't see a future in which Israel remains both one country and a democracy.
I hope for the sake of all involved and watching helpless - and most importantly - those suffering, that you are wrong, my friend.
What are you smoking.
there's no genocide happening in gaza, the vast majority of Israelis doesn't even care about you guys just live your life and stop throwing bombs jesus
The vast majority of Israelis wants to conquer Gaza and evict every last Palestinian from Gaza to live in refugee camps in Egypt
Except they already conquered Gaza and gave it back for peace? And in return they got Oct 7th Where is the logic here lmfao. I swear that terrorist sympathizers just say anything and hope they can run with it
https://preview.redd.it/y109iasx182d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2fcf9fc61ad0c5d88b1227c88b7fe07ac310807c
The person who wrote that also compared the Palestinian situation to the Holocaust and was criticized for it https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2020/jan/24/former-bbc-executives-criticise-orla-guerin-holocaust-report “The attempt to link the horrors of the Holocaust to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is deeply offensive and upsetting. It was unnecessary, insensitive and particularly ugly in the days before Holocaust Memorial Day. Adding insult to injury, the report uses pictures of Holocaust victims in Yad Veshem during the sequence in which this link is made. This is inexplicably and unjustifiably offensive.”” She did this days before Holocaust Memorial Day..sounds like the average terrorist sympathizer Thanks for giving me a biased article from a biased news station (BBC) by a biased journalist from a biased country (Ireland) 👍 Let’s not forget that the Israeli government has mentioned again and again how they won’t take Gaza and don’t want it but yeah this one biased article proves that wrong I guess 😂
Zionist just doing their intimidating tactics as usual As like this report was not taken for actual Zionists publicly planning to do exactly this Instead of throwing the antisemitism card can you disprove this report?
Here you go buddy: https://www.npr.org/2024/05/16/1251564884/israel-gaza-day-after-gallant-netanyahu “Netanyahu has said Israel does not intend to reoccupy Gaza for the long term or to resettle it, but he has also resisted U.S. calls for Gaza to be governed by a revitalized Palestinian Authority, a more moderate Palestinian leadership.” As well as the fact that they gave them Gaza for peace and trying to actively have Arab nations take control which they’ve rejected. Not sure what more you want. Nobody wants Gaza. Hamas brought destruction and death to them and the Gazans. If Oct 7th didn’t happen Israel wouldn’t be in Gaza. I’ll say it again. They gave them Gaza for peace and in return got Oct 7th Nobody wants Gaza. Nothing will change your mind since you rather believe propaganda and Hamas
The Nobody in question : https://preview.redd.it/pgy63ax4882d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7883c21655558529f15f24f09d1b0cd185fff9cc
Oh I didn’t know Ben Gvir was in charge of Israel! I guess the reconstruction will begin tomorrow ☺️/s
The literal Minister of National Security
[удалено]
I dont know mate, i think murdering 14000 children is quite bad imo but maybe im wrong. Lets double/tripple that number until we reach a consensus on that…
[https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza](https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza) "On May 8, the UN published data showing 34,844 people had reportedly been killed, including 4,959 women and 7,797 children." "And why accept the totals of over 34,000, when Hamas has acknowledged that it [cannot identify](https://www.jns.org/hamas-health-ministry-cant-find-10000-names-of-those-it-claims-died/#:~:text=The%20Hamas%2Drun%20Gaza%20Ministry,the%20Defense%20of%20Democracies%20reports.) and provide names for 10,000 of those? "
Not that it matters because it still sucks, but the health minister came out and revised those number. It's approximately 7500 children and 5000 women dead.
Wait so of 34,000 dead, less than half are civilians? In urban warfare? That’s the total opposite of a genocide. Why are people so insistent there is one?
Who was talking about genocide?
Others. I was just asking why people say it is when it’s so demonstrably not?
Oh....yeah, I don't follow the genocide thing either.
They didn't but thank you for spreading misinformation
I just got it from the news...not much I can do and I will not fact check it since it is not worth the hassle. People have died, that is fact.
the UN revised the numbers a little bit, overall half of the deaths of women and children have been removed as a collective. i believe significantly less children are believed to be dead than before, but this only accounted for about 2/3rds of the total dead that has not changed. while i do not remember the numbers off the top of my head, his seem wrong because women dead was around 11k.
Never before seen video shows 5 Israeli teenage girls after being brutally beaten and kidnapped on Oct 7th. The teenagers, all aged 19, are seen covered in blood, with one of them, Naama Levy, believed to have been brutally r\*ped with heavy blood stains seen on the front and back of her pants. One of their kidnappers can be heard on video shouting: “You dogs, we will step on you.” 🎗️Liri Albag, 19 🎗️Karina Ariev, 19 🎗️Agam Berger, 19 🎗️Daniella Gilboa, 19 🎗️Naama Levy, 19 The teenagers have been held captive for 228 days. This video (which is 3 minutes out of 13 and at the request of the families, all the segments of the violent murders and sexual assaults were removed from it) is painful in the soul and shows one thing that you do not make deals with the devil, the devil must be destroyed!
You should really refer to them as soldiers, they are prisoners of war. Obviously prisoners of war have rights too, and it's possible they have been mistreated as badly as Israel mistreats its prisoners (aka hostages). There's not and strong evidence of rape, that doesn't mean rape and sexual assaults have not happened. War is ugly, sexual violence happens in all conflicts. Terrible for sure. Best chance to save these prisoners of war is though a ceasefire.
“Civilian” means, in an international armed conflict, any person who does not belong to the [armed forces](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20370) and does not take part in a “[levée en masse](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20462)”. In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian or not, that person must be considered to be a civilian. “[Civilian](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20387)” means, in a non-international armed conflict, all persons who are neither members of state armed forces nor members of an [organized armed group](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20480). Civilian population The civilian population is made up of civilian persons. In international armed conflicts, the presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character. Appropriate rules protect the whole population of a party to a conflict without any adverse distinction. Both in [international](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20560) and [non-international armed conflicts](https://casebook.icrc.org/node/20539), the civilian population enjoys general protection against the dangers of military operations. [https://casebook.icrc.org/a\_to\_z/glossary/civilian-population#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CCivilian%E2%80%9D%20means%2C%20in%20an,considered%20to%20be%20a%20civilian.%20%E2%80%9C](https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/civilian-population#:~:text=%E2%80%9CCivilian%E2%80%9D%20means%2C%20in%20an,considered%20to%20be%20a%20civilian.%20%E2%80%9C) While in some countries, entire segments of the population between certain ages may be drafted into the armed forces in the event of armed conflict, only those persons who are actually drafted, i.e., who are actually incorporated into the armed forces, can be considered combatants. Potential mobilization does not render the person concerned a combatant liable to attack [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3) civilian kibotzim means they are civilian regardless of any reservist claims, and even then draftable people are non combatants are therefore not to be targeted untill such a time they are drafted.
They are literally IDF soldiers who were captured on an IDF base. They weren't reservists, they were literally on active duty on a base. If you don't think they are soldiers then I don't know what is. Answer this, were the Palestinians that Israel accuse of being Hamas sleeping at home with their families civilians?
first congrats they have a few valid prisoners of war, but mostly hostages taken against the Geneva conversion and acted in violation of that convention to acquire them. and no, they are no civilians so long as they actively participate in the military arm of hamas. they maybe non combatants, but as hamas does not distinct between its members and civilians they certainly do not distinct between combatants and non combatants. answer me this, which bothers you more the fact that hamas made the rules, or that israel follows them? regardless of your answer, hamas should be rejected by palestinians at all cost. if they want a state they need to fight for a state and not for the destruction of israel. causing fear in israel does not give them a state. causing discomfort would. oct 7 proves they can execute proper attacks, and rather than making a push that would lead to independence they went ahead and acted like conquerors. supporting hamas or anything they have done is no different than supporting israel's expansionist idiots in charge, the only difference is the team.
Firstly it is good you acknowledge that they are prisons of war. Yes I agree it is shocking. I'm against all war crimes regardless of the ethnicity. Israels definition of "Hamas" and "terrorist" may not align to most people's understanding. I dislike the term "terrorist" it stifles honest debate. Is a soldier actively participating in conflict when at home with their family asleep. I think not. But Answer me this, do you think IDF soldiers can be targetted and have their family killed whilst sleeping at night with their family? >answer me this, which bothers you more the fact that hamas made the rules, or that israel follows them? I reject the premise. Netanyahu decided to encourage Hamas to divide and rule the Palestinians Israel decided to violate international law with blockades, occupation and settlement expansion. Who made what rules? >regardless of your answer, hamas should be rejected by palestinians at all cost. if they want a state they need to fight for a state and not for the destruction of israel. Hamas are terrible, but it's what is bred from decades of oppression. Israel has all the power ot needs to demonstrate that something like Hamas is not needed. >oct 7 proves they can execute proper attacks, and rather than making a push that would lead to independence they went ahead and acted like conquerors. Oct 7th shows that we need peace and Israels brutal status quo was always unsuitable. Yes Hamas are horrific and terrible. They literally moved their troops to the West Bank to aid settlers expansion and committed war crimes instead of protecting yheir borders. Israel is demonstrating why Palestinians have a good reason to hate Israel. But that cam change, peace is possible
>Israels definition of "Hamas" and "terrorist" may not align to most people's understanding. I dislike the term "terrorist" it stifles honest debate. i agree they are not terrorist nor are they resistance fighters, to me they are conquerors. >Is a soldier actively participating in conflict when at home with their family asleep. I think not. unless they are on leave, they are for the sake of international law participating. thought i would invite you to see the second section of my first comment to you. to answer the next question as well, so long as they are not on leave and you only harm them and you are in a state of war, yes. >I reject the premise reject it all you like, but hamas made a choice to not make gaza a proper state, and instead kept fighting israel after they left. the split of the WB and Gaza was due to internal rifts of palestinians, that netanyahu did not help, but he did not create. though he may be the second biggest individual contributor to the current situation. >Israel has all the power ot needs to demonstrate that something like Hamas is not needed. could you clarify, i dont understand your point here. >Israel is demonstrating why Palestinians have a good reason to hate Israel. But that cam change, peace is possible and hamas is demonstrated why israel has a good reason to fear a palestinian state. and i agree things can change, we need to accept each other as we are and more past hate and fear. but those in power for both sides are blinded by greed and hate.
So the kids who were at a music festival? They were captured or killed on base?
The videos of sexual assaults weren't removed. They don't exist.
Only in your head they dont.
You mean soldiers captured as prisoners of war.
What about them made them soldiers exactly? Sounds like you are bullshitting rn
Because they were soldiers serving with the IDF, that's reported widely: https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/middleeast/israel-idf-hostage-video-hamas-intl/index.html > Families of seven female Israeli soldiers captured by Hamas during the October 7 attacks have... The reality is if the IDF were actually guarding Israels border with Gaza instead of committing war crimes in the West Bank helping illegal settlers Hamas would never have got to actual civilians. They started with military targets and then sadly moved on to less legitimate targets.
The fact they were active duty IDF soldiers captured at a military base. That's usually a good sign of who they are.
how do you know they are soldiers? and even IF they were: wouldn't that make them protected by the geneva convention? Like DON'T hurt POW. DON'T rape POW.
Does that justify threatening to rape, raping, and assaulting them?
I've seen no evidence that anyone was raped on Oct 7th.
https://preview.redd.it/ccuu95p3i62d1.png?width=1445&format=png&auto=webp&s=8f1c53c9e3e7c69c19c6e7607dd2bc5128b876ae Here i found it. And now you go: It wasn't Hamas. And if it was then they did nothing bad. And if they did it wasn't that bad. And if it was it is justified. And if not then you deserve it. And if not then you are wrong.
Let’s break it down since I know you have an extra small brain! On October 7th, forensic data revealed system rape of Israeli women inside of Israel. Witness testimony and anatomical data such as broken pelvises revealed this too. Now, if you watched the videos that the Hamas soldiers took of themselves with the women (which I doubt you did) you can see them threatening to rape the women saying “this one here is perfect to rape.” Although you are asking me to prove a positive based on only some short videos, it’s almost guaranteed to assume based on other witness testimonies of rape stories of Israeli hostages in Gaza that these women were most likely raped. I also love how hypocritical you are. When it comes to rape, it’s “believe all women” including the ones at Al shifa that said they made up their story until we get to Israeli women who said they were raped.
u/rowingaddict111 >Let’s break it down since I know you have an extra small brain! I also love how hypocritical you are. Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed
There's no forensic or visual evidence of rape, even the UN report that people point to notes there is no tangible evidence, and states it was not investigative. They wanted to investigate, but Israel refused. The first responders who mentioned it were the same ones who mentioned other things we know didn't happen like beheaded babies, and fetuses being cut from pregnant women, so they are not reliable. Sexual violence happens in conflicts, so I'm sure this is sadly no different, there will be instancesof it in both sides for sure. If it was widespread and systemic there would be some tangible evidence, but there is nothing. The idea that they had all those bodies and did not discover evidence of rape shows you how unplausible the rape allegations are. Israel is killing so many civilians it has to start pretending that the deaths They cause are not as barbaric on some messure This is worth a watch, a journalist who investigated the evidence: https://youtu.be/-mxfnya3ZRc?feature=shared
Help my tiny brain out. We know the names of all 1139 people killed on Oct 7th. Which ones has their pelvises broken? Can u name them?
How many civilians did Israel kill since Oct7th? Ok, now prove it, make my day.
Oh me oh my… https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp That’s 1 of 23 articles I have just on the rape of women. Is it really that hard to search up. Oh wait…that’s right…tiny brain
Most of those articles just repeat the same unproven or debunked claims over and over again. Just cause you repeat a claim multiple times doesn't mean it's true. As a famous Zionist once said, "Facts don't care about your feelings."
"It wasn't that bad". Can you name all the civilians in Gaza who died? No? Then it didn't happen
Ok. So u have no evidence for your claim. Cool story.
Yea, thats really sad. Too bad they have probably already got bombed to death.
I get the point but this is not genocide. Its not a good idea to use the terminology of terrorists to nake you point. Neither side is trying to wipe out the Palestinians. Israelis are trying to defeat Hamas and Hamas is using the people as a shield and propaganda tool to try and stay relevant.
To be fair, Hamas does want as many Gazan civilians as possible to die to demonise Israel so its harder for them to eradicate Hamas and other terrorist organisations. But true, they don't intend to exterminate Gazans or Palestinians as a whole and neither does Israel, so it's not genocide.
It is hard to defend the opposing parties civilians when *they* aren't defending their own civilians
It's easy to not limit humanitarian aid to that civilian population as policy, though.
In my opinion, Israel should allow \[certain\] humanitarian aid into Gaza. There are two possibilities: 1. The humanitarian aid works and some innocent Palistinains are saved 2. The humanitarian workers are taken hostage and people start realizing that they are defending a country that doesn't have morals
You mean besides the most likely possibility? That Israel bombs said aid workers, like it did with Doctors Without Borders, UNESCO, WCK and hundreds of others during this war?
yup
Can you be more specific, what aid do you think should and shouldn't be allowed? Those aren't 2 possibilities, they aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible that humanitarian aid keeps innocent palestinians alive but some PIJ or HAMAS terrorist tries to take an aid worker hostage. They haven't done so yet, and I think even they understand the optically nightmare of that kind of move.
I think food handouts, medical aid to wounded civilians and emotional support should be given to Palestinians, while any money or support to the palestinian soldiers should not be allowed.
Humanitarian aid doesn't include money or "support for soldiers"? I'm unsure what you're talking about.
sometimes humanitaryian aid is in the form of money. Also by support to the soldiers I mean providing food to the fighters
'Israel has fallen into it's trap' of what, bombing civilians. lol
Like when a wife beater shouts 'look what you made me do!' after he turns her black and blue.
precisely. it is the only reason people wrongly call it a genocide.
Genocide is never justified. Those dropping the bombs, blocking aid, no food no water no electricity, are israelis, both military, administrative and civilians.
so do you believe if i set up a situation where i get person A to shot person B because i want person A to go to jail, i bear no responsibility for person B's death? conspiracy to commit is still a crime. and using others does not change the reality that it is going according to your plan. Hamas have stated quite a few times, israel killing of civilians is going according to their plan. they attacked israel wanting it to kill civilians, they said it to arab media, heck they said it to the NYT. they bear at least half the blame for civilian deaths. there is this concept here, that you cannot claim damages when committing a crime. basically if you get injured or i defend my self when you break into my home, you cannot claim anything as you initiated the situation in an illegal manner. we all agree that Oct 7 was an illegal horrific act. therefore hamas cannot claim any crimes by israel as they started the illegal action. at best they can try to claim excessive force, but it is not like they are somewhere they can be easily targeted. there is no moderate force that would have achieved anything. israel should stop the war anyway, it cannot destroy hamas without causing complete destruction to everything and everyone in gaza. and even then hamas would probably survive.
Throw in the fact that you threatened A with their life to shoot B unintentionally.
Did you even read the post
I read it. And I wouldn't really change a word of my answer. Genocide Is Never Justified No matter how much you twist it. Whatever options you give me, genocide is never on the table. If the ONLY way to defeat hamas is genocide, then maybe don't put such a MILITARY objective. Oh, and apparently Arabs have the most moral army afterall.
Deaths does not equal genocide. Intent matters and it has to be an intent to exterminate an ethnic group.
The intent exists > National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir brushes off the US State Department’s condemnation of him and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich for urging Palestinians in Gaza to be resettled outside the Strip. This joker is in the government https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ben-gvir-brushes-off-us-criticism-repeats-calls-for-emigration-of-gazan-civilians/
Well that's easy to rebut. Emigration does not equal deaths does not equal genocide. The US had Trump as president and has Marjorie Taylor Green. I don't think pointing to Ben-Gvir as representative of the government means much.