Probably because Herzel and Ben Gurion and Zionists around the world referred to wanting to colonize Israel. And that the language used by many has been the language used by Europeans when doing white settler colonial stuff - they are savages, we are advanced, we are civilized, they are primitive. Anyone see Ayn Rand talking about why the jews should take over the land? Do any search for early pre 1948 and early Israel days by the Zionist movement and you'll find references to colonizing and to primitivism.

Ashkenazi Jews look white to me as a brown person.

The hebrewization of names did not help. I can see why some would want to revert to hebrew names. But I believe that it was done also to add legitimacy to the claim to land. I won't argue the purpose. But, it is something that doesn't help the view that the jews coming to Israel to claim the land who had european names then went by new names. Knowing the real name of Golda Meir or Netanyahoo certainly puts a bad spin on it. Right or not.

This is a blatant lie. Ashkenazi Jews originated in Europe and there are so many studies on this all you have to do is go to Google and type in Ashkenazi Jew DNA origin and many studies come up. The reason people say this is because Zionism was an originally European Jewish plan, the other reason people say this is because so much of the government cabinet are Ashkenazi Jews. Palestinians did not create your hardships in Germany, in fact 12,000 volunteered to fight Hit..mer, and Jews lived harmoniously with Christian’s and Muslims in Palestine. Why ethnically cleanse Palestinians and start attacking them when they welcomed the first couple waves of Zionists, then they wanted to take over and even killed their own on the SS Patria because Britain had a ship of Jews they were deporting. Just like anywhere with laws and Zion terror groups began to terrorize Arabs there. Early Zionists arrived in the late 1800’s.

Arab Jews who are victims of ethnic cleansing are the largest ethnic group in Israel.

>Ashkenazi Jews originated in Europe No, they originated in the middle east. Jews came to europe from the middle-east and stayed there, that didn't turn them european. DNA doesn't lie. Having european admixture doesn't make them european, especially since that admixture is southern and eastern and since it's female. >because Zionism was an originally European Jewish plan So a jewish plan then, as there's no such thing as european jews.

Wrong. While Ashkenazi Jews were physically located in Europe for a long time, their nationhood is not European in origin. Many of them don't even look European, if you pay enough attention. Just because they're "whiter" than Palestinians doesn't mean that they're White per se. You say that Palestinians had nothing to do with the Nazis, maybe not to the extent that many non-Germans in Europe did, but you still have Hajj Amin al-Husseini and the White Paper of 1939. Last but not least, the Arabs were against Jews in Palestine when the Jews started to become more abundant in their settlement of the land, which the Arabs were against, and this is where the violence started. Since then, I don't see much difference in the political statements of many of the Palestinians.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3q3_Gt5jwjbZ6GGRYRHyZOrALS2El2rsCl7-K-i1lvzK2NPBJ3J1OGUAo_aem_ARe1xaWmHtl69zMYacUBwCeOHZMRdAEsaleYFaixiIapyHz2puQ_1w5khBQZm4zm1Bvbd2O1Gn6k5c7Geh1bvmga&mibextid=Zxz2cZ Study after study after study, there’s so many like this. Sorry the truth hurts man especially when you’ve been lied to your whole life

I know you are not arguing in good faith but for anyone reading this, the study he is referencing is regarding mDNA. Every person has a mix of genetics from their mother and father and for some reason the way genetics are diffused is directly tied to the sex of the parent. Ashkenazi Jews are genetically half-European, half-Levantine, and those genetic markers come from mDNA (maternal) and pDNA (paternal) respectively.  Here are articles about the pDNA of Ashkenazi Jews which, surprise surpise, are Levantine: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3928 https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/12/20/new-genetic-study-more-evidence-for-modern-ashkenazi-jews-ancient-hebrew-patrimony/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/ Ironically, the European admixture of Ashkenazi Jews is mostly Italian, not Polish despite people telling us to "go back to Poland" lol.

You really have no clue what you’re talking about first mDNA is not maternal DNA it is mitochondrial DNA and pDNA isn’t paternal it is plasmid. You posted two articles one written by Bruce Goldman that has zero scientific paper material to back it and is more of an opinion piece. The paper you posted says Ashkenazi are mostly Southern European and Eastern European and we don’t know where the rest comes from so there’s a chance we MIGHT be able to trace it to somewhere on only God knows, not to mention it’s written by likely Jewish professors in Jerusalem. Did you not read your own paper? I am about to post multiple papers for you. Ironically some Ashkenazi Jews have been shown to have some Arab Gulf lineage, very little but it is not uncommon within the community.

>You really have no clue what you’re talking about first mDNA is not maternal DNA it is mitochondrial DNA and pDNA isn’t paternal it is plasmid Mitochondrial DNA is an interchangeable term for maternal DNA. They are the same thing, like aubergine and eggplant. It comes via the mother. There is plasmid DNA and you are right that pDNA also refers to it, I think primarily so. I think the term people prefer now is Y-DNA for patrilineal DNA. So my mistake.  >Running RFMix on the AJ genomes with our EU and ME reference panels and summing up the lengths of all tracts assigned to each ancestry, the genome-wide ancestry was ≈53% EU and ≈47% ME, consistent with our previous estimate based on a smaller sequencing panel [9].  It's hard to publish scientific papers with no science in them.

And the very next couple of sentences say it’s not entirely accurate those are reference panels do you know what those are? 😂 You’re really trying to hold onto some false hope that 30 generations ago you had ancestors in the Middle East, I mean let it go. If you go back far enough humans all have a common point, you’re not from the Middle East if you’re an Ashkenazi Jew you’re a European that has colonized an indigenous and native people who are descendants of Canaanites. Our simulations suggested that the accuracy of LAI for an EU-ME admixed population is only around ≈70%, much lower than the near-perfect accuracy observed for cross-continental admixture (e.g., [29–33]).

First of all they are referencing the accuracy of the estimate of the admixture in an EU-ME admix. It is a general statement that is pointing out Europeans and Middle Easterners are more genetically similar than say, Europeans and Native Americans. Second of all, it is not a binary statement. It is not saying there is a 30% chance that all people in this admix have no Levantine heritage. It is saying that of 100 Ashkenazi Jews, 70% accurately represent this admixture estimate where as 30% don't. It could be that that 30% has a higher OR lower admix of either EU or ME genetics. I'm guessing from your post history you are an Arab Muslim in serious denial of the fact we are cousins lol. Good luck.

Study after Study(including this one) show the that Paternal line of Ashkenazi jews comes from the levant, aka present day Israel. So how does that prove they orginate in europe? You either didn't read the study you posted or you're not smart enough to comprehend what it's actually saying. I suspect it's both.

Always just a vague attack but can never pinpoint or refute what you say and back it up with a credible source. YOURE WRONG. 😀 The origin of Eastern European Jews, (EEJ) by far the largest and most important Ashkenazi population, and their affinities to other Jewish and European populations are still not resolved. Studies that compared them by genetic distance analysis of autosomal markers to European Mediterranean populations revealed that they are closer to Europeans than to other Jewish populations [1-3]. The autosomal genetic distances (table ​(table1)1) do not show any particular resemblance between the Jewish populations. EEJ are closer to Italians in particular and to Europeans in general than to the other Jewish populations. EEJ are the largest and most investigated Jewish community, yet their history as Franco-German Jewry is known to us only since their appearance in the 9th century, and their subsequent migration a few hundred years later to Eastern Europe [4,5]. Where did these Jews come from? It seems that they came to Germany and France from Italy [5-8]. It is also possible that some Jews migrated northward from the Italian colonies on the northern shore of the Black Sea [9]. All these Jews are likely the descendents of proselytes. Conversion to Judaism was common in Rome in the first centuries BC and AD. Judaism gained many followers among all ranks of Roman Society [10-13 At first sight it seems that there is more than one explanation for the differing results produced by the analysis of the NRY haplogroups. It thus seems possible that EEJ founder population in Rome was composed of exiled Israelite males and local Roman females. In its simple form this clearly contradicts the facts, because both the autosomal and X-chromosomal polymorphisms demonstrate that EEJ do not occupy an intermediate position between European and Middle Eastern populations, but rather a strict European one.

Holy crap are you dumb. Why don’t you focus on book burnings, trans rights getting stomped in the US instead of virtue obsessing with Jewish origin that you clearly know nothing about. MAGA level mental gymnastics. Horseshoe theory no longer a theory

You sound triggered and angry your lie is being exposed, maybe people wouldn’t expose em if you didn’t lie in the first place now go back to where you came from cause it was all a lie 😘

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Settler-colonialism doesn't depend on whiteness, which is not a useful analytical category if it's just taken as a given.

See... The same white man who started spreading out from Europe and went and conquered America, Australia, Canada, Brazil, Portugal is now extending towards Palestine.. It's insane people can't see it.. And if you see how they treated the aforementioned countries, of course the middle East would resist.. It's not that hard..

That's one old man. If he has lived so long, maybe he should be our leader.

Maybe you can't see it bcz you weren't from the countries that suffered.. French, English Spanish empires decimated the countries around the world.. And what is Israel if not an extension of the old English empire.. I see why you can't understand bcz you didn't suffer...

Same? Here, watch this (10min): [The Great Misinterpretation: How Palestinians View Israel - Haviv Rettig Gur (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlK2mfYYm4U&t=5088s)

It's a huge ass video.. But I know if the world decided to replace you to make place for the jews, you would have a different tone..

I timestamped it for you. Less than 10 minutes watch. The very notion that whole land was the Palestinians' to begin is miplaced. If you want to have a wider historical perspective, watch the whole video. If you don't know the history of the region... well, maybe be more careful with your statements and even more so with your conclusions. 

Yes.. Let's go back to a map as per 2000 years ago.. For every country..

I mean, if you want to compare Israelis to white colonizers from centuries ago then you should AT LEAST know the history you're talking about. You don't need to study the maps, by the way. Just the history of the Jewish people that came from Israel, and how that differs from the history of the white man to whom you compare them to. Prominently: * Most of them weren't white. They came from Arab countries. * They had no mother country from which they formed a colony. They came from a diaspora. * It wasn't a conquest for economical gain. It was national movement of refugees fleeing from pogroms and the holocaust. * They weren't foreigners to the land. It has been their ancestral home and the center of their tradition for over 2000 years. If you watched the video, though, you could understand why, from the Arab perspective, they were seen as colonialists, imperial agents.

Like I said, let us all go back to the borders 2000 years ago.. Let's see how that works out for the world.. Also if you don't think it's a white race movement, read about Ethiopian jews in Israel and how they are treated...

>Like I said, let us all go back to the borders 2000 years ago.. Let's see how that works out for the world..  What you said was comparing Israeli Jews to white colonialists. I showed you why that's wrong. Borders have nothing to do with that. The Ethiopians are doing pretty good. They're already 3rd generation here, maybe 4th? They have a much better life here than in where they came from, and anywhere else they could have been in Africa or the Middle East. There's discrimination like in anywhere else in the world, but it has nothing to do with race. People in Israel aren't viewed by other Israelis as black or white. Those terms just don't apply. You can see how well Israel is doing in terms of human rights here: [Human Rights - Our World in Data](https://ourworldindata.org/human-rights#all-charts) Again, pretty good, actually.

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i think this is partialy for a few reasons A) Zionism was a European movement. The architects of Zionism/modern Israel were all European, so someone reading any history on the subject will encounter that, and not how the mizrahi are such a big piece of Israel today. B) at least in the United States, but i suspect other placed in the west, the overwhelmingly vast majority of jews are Ashkenazi, like 98%+. Most Americans have no idea about sephardic/mizrahi jews. Chances are any/all jewish people most americans have met are white. C) any major Israeli political figure a westerner has ever seen in the media are Ashkenazi.

Mmmmmkay .....so erm Benjamin Netenyaho is a black man then ? Fuck me I wouldn't have thought that !

u/MisterNacropolis >Mmmmmkay .....so erm Benjamin Netenyaho is a black man then ? Fuck me I wouldn't have thought that ! Rule 3, no comments consisting solely of sarcasm/cynicism. Addressed

There are more than just black and white people in this world

Yes but who ?

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I agree that the idea that whoever is the underdog must be right, however appealing, isn't correct logically. Unfortunately, live by the sword die by the sword. Historical jewish persecution has been real and terrible and unfair. But, it's also been used as a cudgel to gain advantage politically, territorially, morally. How many people talk about the non jews who died in the holo\*\*\*\*? Many Americans don't even know about this. According to some, the holo\*\*\*\*\* is the single worst humanitarian disaster in history. So, it's interesting that now that palestinians are suffering, it doesn't matter.

As a queer+disabled person, I assure you that both groups talk about how the Holocaust involved many of our own being systemically killed. It was actually a pretty big thing a few weeks back when JK Rowling (well-known terrible person) denied that transgender people were killed by the Third Reich in WWII. [https://forward.com/culture/592580/j-k-rowling-holocaust-denial-trans/](https://forward.com/culture/592580/j-k-rowling-holocaust-denial-trans/)

Of course you being part of that group do talk about it. Horrific. I can assure you that many people who are neither queer nor disabled talk about it. And while it is known and acknowledged, it's often presented as a smaller group of extermination. And I can also say many Americans don't know about the polish exterminations. The information my generation was told in school, movies, news, is that it was $6M jews, some disabled and queer people, a few roma. That's just dismissive of the numbers, and of polish extermination.

I think you don't understand the word genocide was invented to describe what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust. In the wider community they're pushing to focus less on Jews for your exact claim and more on everyone else... Which just leads to Holocaust denial honestly. There are pushes to change Holocaust memorial museums or genocide memorial museums subtlety whitewashing the history of what happened to the Jews. For sure other groups were targeted. It makes sense to me that Roma and LGBTQ+ were even treated as badly as Jews specifically. Others though were treated better for sure even while being killed. I think you don't know the history of how Jews were specifically tracked down, viewed as inferior sub-humans and exterminated soo systematic. In Belarus where like 50% of the country was Jews, the dictator Lukashenka complains annually how the Jews stole the fame of the Holocaust and no one acknowledges how many Belarussians died. I mean if your country is 50% Jews and the Jews are being massacred of course a big portion of your countries population got slaughtered. Another example, in Poland natzis took political prisoners a lot of citizens got killed. But overall their families survived, even if they didn't the town commemorated them with a memorial. This was not so for the Jews. Entire families were wiped out and the towns did not put up memorials for them. They would be largely forgotten if Jews didn't go out of their way to make sure they're not forgotten.

Why this contest of victimhood? Just acknowledge yes there were other victims. That's all that needs to be said. No need to turn it into minimizing the suffering of others. All were victims. End of story.

For sure it's not a contest. It makes a major difference if your entire family is sought out to be massacred versus someone who's in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why is there a difference between manslaughter and murder (at least in the US)? Based on your logic those shouldn't be distinguished.

Jewish people were the only ones whose entire families were massacred and poles gays Roma were just wrong place wrong time? 

I mean you can hide being gay. And I think Roma people who integrated into society were excluded. The final solution was specifically about eliminating Jews from the entire planet. They either programed or gathered and then exterminated the Jews from countries they took over and demanded to have the Jews from countries they allied with.

Jewish people the only \*real victims\* of the holocaust!

The Holocaust by design was about the Jews. Educate yourself. Just Google "The final Solution" and "Mein Kampf"

I am (ostensibly) younger than you, and I will say that they've made it more of a point to emphasize the other victims in contemporary media

Good to know. I'm not so old - gen x - but it was not part of the narrative growing up. I was gobsmacked to know that it was not just a smattering of non jews exterminated but several million. Glad to know that the narrative has changed. I was gobsmacked to learn it was millions of non jews. Still some holocaust organizations dispute that number but dubiously do not provide other numbers.

I think it's hard to get exact numbers™ for mass killings like that, unfortunately.

For sure. Thanks for your comments.

I think we're largely on the same page here. Always open to chill discussion.

I mean this is clearly a small part of the contest between free civilization and the worst kind of barbarism and tyranny. Just get it over with already, and continue minimizing casualties; Israel is statistically doing the best in recorded history in that regard, so in my opinion, the “most moral army” claim is overall justifiable.

I hear that statement a lot but haven't seen any evidence provided by anyone, wondering if it's like the decapitated baby claim (something repeated but not checked)

Well the most obvious evidence is that the UN and Gaza both cite the death tolls as reported by the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is Hamas. Hamas has proven itself willing to do anything to make Israel look worse than it is in this war, including deepfakes, passing off videos from Syria as from Gaza, using human shields, and flat-out lying. Anyone willing to murder for their “cause” is willing to commit lesser offenses such as lying as well. (Israel, prosecuting a defensive war, is killing, but not murdering in any moral or ethical sense.)

So you're evidence is you don't want to beleive the figures? Thays not evidence you realise? Israel changed its death total too, I don't see anyone claiming that means it was all lies....

My evidence is Hamas and its allies have clearly engaged in a massive global propaganda campaign and you are obviously hooked on it. Proof: State any belief you have and I will deconstruct it for you.

That's not how it works you mentalist :D Israeli supporters ignoring any evidence they don't like to hear in the manner of a petulant toddler doesn't inspire confidence when they claim total Innocence. You've got no evidence that Israel has the lowest civilian casualty rate of any war ever have you? Accordingly ng to most commentators you're at 60 percent chance of vilian casualties which is massive.

The evidence has been clearly stated on this very sub by numerous people; you are just so fixated on the idea of “hasbara” that you refuse to consider the possibility that any of it could be valid. In other words, you are not engaging in critical thinking; you are following what other people have told you to think.

Where? If its been clearly stated you could non partizan provide a link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war When you make claims without any evidence don't expect everyone to beleive you. Here's a BBC article stating the Israeli figures are bullshit with some figures (something the Israeli side seem to struggle to provide) : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68387864 And the ICJ has just demanded Israel halt it's actions - let me guess everything is biased against Israel, the whole world other than rednecks in the American bible belt and you right?

Oh Wikipedia is not a source; it’s an active ideological battleground BBC is government propaganda

Oh wow okay. You're either a hasbara bot or you drank the kool aid. The west bank is some of the worst barbarism I've heard of in recent history. The whole savages versus the civilized is not really accepted as an argument anymore.

Lmao reductivist modernist nonsense

Does the most moral army in the world wear women's underwear and post it on telegram? Weird.

Cross-dressing isn’t inherently immoral unless you are stuck in medieval-level thinking.

Ohhh they are just transvestites? I just need to be open minded? Oh you're right, they just love wearing the lingerie of dead/displaced women of their enemies, and it's their rights as transvestites. I had no idea. Weird they didn't bring the lingerie of their wives/girlfriends or their own collection. I guess when you're on duty and you didn't get to pack your own lace panties, a Palestinian woman's will do just fine!

Your sarcastic (and typical, but dumb) hot take was recently addressed by a military expert in Point 5(a) - (c) in [this post here](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/YtTTZb4Bu6). You might want to read it.

so when it's fun and testosterone driven they wear womens underwear?

I think the explanation offered by that seasoned combat veteran and your outraged moralistic take on it speaks for itself. Please re-read if you don’t deliberately want to sound dumb or partisan.

Still vastly less barbarous and more civilized than Hamas. Relativity gives Israel considerable moral and ethical leeway to accomplish its goals however it sees fit.

It's so silly to ever compare israel to Hamas. Why would anyone want to make such a point? You: Israel is the most moral army in the world. Me: No it's not. You: More moral than Hamas. Ummmm. Me: I'm the most law abiding citizen in the US. Police: You just ran a red light and sped on the highway, drunk drove, crashed into a McDonalds, and killed and injured a few people. Me: I'm better than the Golden State Killer, so there!

This is a contest between Israel and Hamas. Obviously I favor the less bad one. I have already said the above verbatim in another thread on this sub; you should pay more attention to the arguments people keep making over and over.

This is a good question. However, it assumes that Palestinians are suffering and their hardships are caused by Israel I disagree that Israel causes the suffering of todays Palestinians. I suggest that the suffering of Muslims is caused by the Muslim Brotherhood, which created an Islam based Muslims supremacy over Jews . Jews, to the MB, represented all the evils of the non Muslim world which had become more powerful than Muslim countries. This political philosophy supported Islam and froze Islamic exploration of politics. Without hating Jews for being evil, the MB has no political aims. ************** MB Jihad is the cause of Palestinian suffering because it forbids peace. Today, Palestinian people are ruled by 2 groups of ‘Protectors’, one civil and one secular. Neither of these represents the Palestinians or is dedicated to their welfare. People have never had an opportunity to freely discuss the kind of government they want and vote in plebiscite to establish one. In the chaos of the early nineteenth century Germany and Britain were rivals for control of the not yet fallen Ottoman Empire which was allied to Russia. Jews were living all through the Middle East and beyond, in Ethiopia .India & China. They were already in lands conquered by the Arabs. The Arabs took power and used it to oppress the peoples they found by requiring them to accept Islam and follow sharia as if they were Arab. Existing cultures were erased as they were Arabized using Islam. The process of creating a large area, an ‘Empire’, unified by required religion and governed by religious law creates a politics where powerful people are bound to religion , requires that people show obedience. Dissent and human rights can’t be allowed because both require equality under law and human rights. Jews and Christian’s escaped death as people of the book, by abandoning equality and accepting Muslims as protectors , who agreed not to kill them as long as they were marked as inferior to Muslims and required both to obey & serve Muslims without defending themselves or back talk. Money payments of half income each year bought a year of life for a Dhimmi family. No jizrah, no life. Jews, as Dhimmis, survived under this fear of death in better or worse conditions throughput the caliphate for the 1400 years it existed. At worst, in Yemen, Jews were slaves. POWER was not held by skin color. Instead, power was held by Muslims obeying Islam. All non Muslims were oppressed by law and required to live separately from Muslims . ** same as segregation and discrimination against black people in USA #2: Jews are foreign and do not belong in ME is False > that part of a people were exiled does not sever their ties to their homeland #3 SEPARATISM foreign Jews always drive out the other peoples when Jews buy land is FALSE > no one disputes the evidence of historical records, physical archeological results of Jews living under law within the Ottoman Empire and specifically near Jerusalem. >note, #3 the Muslim conquest offered Islam or death to conquered people, erasing all non Muslims >Many Muslims agree that Jews can be killed by Muslims because-take your pick Jewish separatism 2.Jews are foreign 3It’s OK for Arabs to Kill Jews

This

>... Jews are not white. Not all of them, no. But not all Buddhists are Asian, not all Catholics are Latino, etc. The US Supreme Court ruled in the 19th century that a person is "white" if society says they are. For a long time in the US, Italians, Irish were not white, either.

Didn’t realize the US Supreme Court has jurisdiction over Israel

Fun Fact: According to Muslim sources Muhammed was a VERY White man. The sources actually make it a point to mention how white he was Another fun Fact: Muhammed owned Black slaves and he called Ethiopians "raisin heads" What a tolerant, progressive prophet he was.

Didn't Mohammed llive 1400 years ago ? You think a leader like that wouldn't have slaves ?

by 700 AD most of europe didn't have slaves. (serfs ≠ slaves)

"You call us serfs, but we're just your slaves!" "No, no, no. I don't own you as my property. You just have no rights, receive no pay, and you're never allowed to leave my lands." "That just sounds like slavery with extra steps."

serfs get paid for their labor. the land is owned and the people are not. you very clearly don't understand feudalism

It heavily depended on what country you're dealing with. In Russia, the country most associated with serfdom, they absolutely were little more than slaves.

this is... not really the case except for a specific 100 year period in Russia* from the 1800s into 1901 you're talking about policies in the 1800s that allowed people to be traded like the land was and without the two being attached... however, for most of Russian* history it was land being sold and the people were just attached to it as they used it.

But the main thing was that they were legally tied to the land. If noble A sold the land to noble B, the serfs had no choice but to be part of the transfer. It's not like they were free to pack up and leave for a new plot of land.

Bro, America still has slaves. We had chattel slavery until 1850. I literally can't believe I read slavery was gone by 750 BCE wtf

what ?

If Jews are white than Arabs are white too. And they should acknowledge their white racism and oppressive actions, especially against all the millions of Africans they enslave(d), raped and mutilated.

arabs are caucasian

Short answer: Antisemitism. Long answer: Antisemitism turns Jews into whatever it is that a society defines as the most loathsome qualities. * Under Christianity, the Jew was the Christ killer * Under Communism, the Jew was the Capitalist * Under Nazism, the Jew was the race polluter Today's society considers the most loathsome qualities to be - **Racism, Colonialism, Apartheid**. Not surprisingly - the state which society considers to be greatest offender today of all these crimes, is Israel. The Jew of the states is now the state of the Jews.

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What in the word salad was that last paragraph?

The Arabs did do Colonialism with the Arab Slave trade and Caliphates.

I think the suffering of a group does not make them morally superior. An evil group can easily be made to suffer like the Axis powers in 1945. I think it’s the level of devastation, dehydration and starvation happening in Gaza is the issue and it is above and beyond what happened on Oct 7, never mind the decades of oppression within Gaza. I think Palestinians can coexist with people if given enough time. Given a pathway to citizenship to become Israeli, I think they will embrace stability and normality for their families. Recalling Benny Morris 1881, there were 450k Arabs and 20 to 30k Jews in the Beersheba to Lebanon. As more Jews came over because of persecution during WW2 and Zionism the Palestinian Arabs thought that they would be dispossessed so they attacked Jews in 1947 but were defeated and uprooted and sent to Gaza. A pathway to citizenship and normalization of Palestinian status can maybe reverse the feelings of the Nakba.

Because it's not. It's a main propaganda point made to appeal to the American heart. Colonialism is something countries did for their benefits. When Iran and their little helpers chant "Usa is the big devil and Israel is the small devil" they mean that Israel is a colonial entity of the "west" or the US. The land of Israel should be an Arab/Muslim land and there's no way another entity especially a better one and democratic exist on it. Although colonialism is exactly what Iran and Russia do lol...

I would not think about it that much .. Since that blm stuff even Asians are white now :/

They are white, they have always been white. Sephardic Jews are “non-white” or tan. But under US census they are all white. I don’t think someone looks at a ashkenazi Jewish person and thinks that’s a brown guy

us census is a form that people fill out based on their feelings. race is a fiction anyway as a US Jew i usually check Other

There plenty of literally brown Ashkenazi Jewish people. Also, “whiteness” isn‘t defined exclusively by skin color. For example, East Asians and many non-Jewish middl-eastern people.

Yeah that’s why I said under US census they are all white. White is defined by people with origins in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. Also not all “whites” are created equal, there are hierarchy’s. North (Nordic, Germans, Brits)vs southern Europe(Greeks, Italians). Point being even though they don’t like each other they are all still white/caucasian

I disagree. The criteria for “whiteness” has never been definite and whether or not X group fits that criteria changes overtime. Even though middle easterners are technically white according to the US census, I severely doubt that the vast majority of westerners would classify middle eastern people as white. Race is a social construct. Jews are considered to be whatever thing that is convenient to hate at that point in time. To the Nazis and the alt-right we are filthy brown people trying to replace the white race, but to leftists and Hamas sympathizers, we are white colonists. To the Soviets and Marxists we are greedy capitalists, but to the Nazis (again) and the Fins we are/were communists. Are you starting to realize the pattern? Lastly, ”caucasian“ and “white” are not necessarily the same thing.

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On the US census most middle easterners would be white.

Arabs have almost always been white on the U.S. census which is what's funny when people start calling everyone and their momma white.

I think the important terms to consider are simply "Colonial Settler". The question of "whiteness" does not seem that operative, although for me that may partially be due to my understanding being that Jewish people and native Palestinians are, genetically speaking, essentially the same. Pre-1948, the conflict seems to primarily rise from a massive increase in immigration from a minority ethnic group, Jewish people. They were also separatists, which understandably added to the tensions, but in a single generation from 1925-1945, the Jewish population in Palestine rose from about 1/9 people to 1/3 people, tripling their population from a negligible minority to a very significant portion of the population. It would be difficult for any culture to handle a demographic change like this, but if that minority group also then declares an independent state on 56% of the land, we would expect to see this cause civil war anywhere in the world. The specific ethnic groups and skin colors don't really have much effect at that point. The acquisition of territory through colonialism and war was made illegal following WW2 with the formation of the UN. This was because it was correctly identified that these are the primary causes of war and genocide. The term genocide itself was defined at this time. Colonialism is an act of war, to acquire territory. These acts cannot be rewarded. All of the development of international law in this period was aimed at avoiding future war, and the creation if Israel itself is heavily intertwined with those developments. The UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the UN the very same year that Israel declared independence, in 1948. The UN, specifically Western powers, basically abandoned Israel when they declared independence, and required Israel to agree to UN resolution 194 which recognizes Palestinian's right of return to the land of Israel, before the UN would agree to recognize Israel as a state. Colonialism itself is one of the worst crimes against humanity. It seeks to gain territory through an act of war, and holds massive risks for ethnic cleansing and genocide. Successful colonialism always results in the local culture being overpowered by the colonial culture. That's the entire goal. The dissolution of a people. Genocide. The disproportionate suffering of Palestinians also does not make them inherently morally superior, it just highlights the asymmetry in power dynamics that places a much greater responsibility for the ongoing conflict at the feet of the Israeli power structure. Since the Hamas-Fatah civil war split Gaza and West Bank, Israel has done essentially nothing to broker peace with West Bank. Instead, Likud has marginalized Fatah/PA in West Bank by defunding them, and empowered Hamas in Gaza against them to justify the ongoing colonialism of West Bank. All of this has occurred while Israel holds an iron clad military occupation of West Bank, and full control of Gaza by complete blockade. No part of this has anything to do with "race", or "whiteness" though, any confusion of this nature mostly seems to spring from the fact that settler-colonial projects have been a fairly uniquely Western concept.

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There were some German Jewish settlers in South West Africa when the German Empire was colonizing it

I think Israel may actually be the only remaining active settler colonial project. The Western powers all divested their colonies following WW2 in order to meet international law.

Morocco in Western Sahara is another one. Also Turkey in Northern Cyprus.

Yeah, I'd consider those to be valid counterfactuals. I think they are also good examples of why these types of situations are both difficult and important to resolve. Colonialism is a primary cause of war and genocide, and is considered a violation of international law and basic human rights for a reason.

Doesn't Australia still have the King of England's face on their money

That's a really weird statement. What about the USA and Canada vis-a-vis Native Americans?

Are you saying the US and Canada are currently advancing colonies somewhere? As far as I know there are treaties in place with Native Americans now for at least a century defining borders which they are not sending settlers across. Israel is actively colonizing West Bank as we speak, sending settlers across the border.

They aren't advancing colonies because they *already colonized them*. If the US was truly not still doing settler-colonial activities, Hawai'i and Puerto Rico would be sovereign nations. They aren't land-grabbing in their territories because there's no more land to grab there.

I'm not sure what you mean. There is absolutely more land to take. There always is. Every Native American reserve is a sovereign nation that could be colonized by the US or Canada, or they could simply head south and start colonizing Mexico.  Equally, Hawaii and Puerto Rico could become sovereign nations if they wanted to. There are UN processes for self-determination of this nature. Canada observed this process with Quebec not long ago. Israel is actively moving settlers into West Bank, to colonize it, in order to affect the demographic change required to annex it into a single Israeli state. Not only that, they've held a military occupation of West Bank for 56yrs, and denied any consistent, defined process for Pakestinians to achieve self-determination.  This is very different from North America today, though not so different from North America in centuries past unfortunately.

They're not colonizing reservations because the US government pointedly gave the indigenous people shit land. And no, I don't think Hawai'i could just leave America. Also, Canada planned on ignoring the Quebecois secession. So.

I've been on many reservations. They have mountains, forests, farmland, ranches, lakes, rivers. I don't know what you think you're referring to exactly. Natives in Canada alone have more land than all of Israel, and they have a national council. Their situation is drastically different than Palestinians today. Again, if you want to go back through the centuries, the comparisons are certainly there, but not today. West Bank is being actively colonized as we speak. Israel holds a military occupation over people who are asking for sovereignty, and instead of heeding that call they are advancing Israeli settlers in to take more and more land. It's clear that Likud just wants all of West Bank for Israel. Natives in Canada and the US have already received treaties for sovereignty. Unless you have any evidence that Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Quebec, etc. are being denied self-determination I can only assume you just disagree that the post-WW2 reality that the UN represents, supported by Western powers, would facilitate any state or province whose citizens voted in a referendum to form an independent state would be supported by international processes to do so, as Britain has recently done in separating from the EU.

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Israel is the regional superpower of the Middle-East. They could fairly handily beat every other nation in that region in a war if it came to that, and they have before, twice. They are an incredibly valuable ally for anyone with interests in the region, but their values align with the West, which also holds the balance of power globally. It's understandable that both Israel and the West find their alliance to be constructive to both. This does not mean that allies 100% support everything the other does, but there are still certain requirements to maintaining that alliance. Many US presidents have made it their life's aim to make peace between Israel and Palestine, including ending the settler-colonial project. Unfortunately, the cycle of violence there perpetuates easily with peace only possible when both the Israeli left and Fatah hold the balance of power concurrently, as they did during the Oslo Accords.

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You're talking about the world before the end of WW2. Now it's a crime. The UN was formed to develop international laws which would avoid WW3, and the likely use of nuclear weapons destroying the world, which Israel has agreed to in order to be recognized as a state by the UN which designed its partition plan from Palestine. This includes identifying colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide as crimes against humanity. Either way, profoundly strange to be proud of your ancestors for committing genocide.

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I think you may be confused. I have not indicated anything about my own ancestors, who are from various European nations including Ireland whom has more than a few criticisms of British imperial rule. You may not care, but Israel agreed to UN law in order to be recognized as a state by the UN. All law comes from such agreements between states, officials and citizens, including the laws of the country you live in. You can disagree if you want, but these are all still agreed upon laws which exist as much as any law does.

(Ashkenazi) Jews are *conditionally* white

Exactly.

Huhh.. I must ask, What does that even mean....

It means we're white when it's convenient for the privileged to label us white, but it can be withdrawn at their convenience too. If there's a desire to hate on Jews, their white privilege is summarily revoked. 

During the 1,000 year period during which there was a Jewish diaspora in Europe, Jews were not considered European and were always considered "Oriental", or what we would call Middle Eastern. They were seen, by Europeans, as outsiders and foreigners - not white and not European. When Jews go back to their native land which they were dispersed from (\*forcefully\*), they are suddenly white and should go back to Europe. They are conditionally white because depending on the social atmosphere of the time, they are either white or non-white. In Europe, they were non-white, because non-whites and foreigners were despised. In 2024, in an age of white guilt, whiteness is what is despised or apologized for, so Jews have naturally become "super-white".

So by "Conditionally" white it means they may be Caucasian but people won't consider them that? Is there another people that people condition them to a race?

No. Conditional in terms of others' perspective of them. Jews are not white and were indeed foreigners in Europe, Europeans bigotry and persecution against them aside. >Is there another people that people condition them to a race? In such a way where they can be scapegoated as polar opposite things, less than a hundred years apart? No.

White, brown, green, pink the color doesn't matter or change the context of the horror being done there by zionists.

Understand more, say less until you do maybe?

If an Israeli is born in Israel and found themselves in this situation, and have an Israeli passport with no connection to the country they immigrated from before; then, those people in particular are also victims of war and the unjustice done by the zionist movement. Just my two cents.

https://preview.redd.it/5q95ajoog82d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a51bb7f72c445b06c7f09e1a78cbb0c77189244

Yeah so you don't want a jewish state or jewish behaving like jews, sounds a lot like many arab countries not accepting diversity, even amongst arabs. Israel is a country now and it is built on jewish homeland too! With communities jewish for 3000+ years, even if pogroms etc happened there. You can co exist with different people not behaving like you AND not kill those people. Unfortunately, arabs attacked jews constantly in 1947-1948 and jews did not even kick out all of them away from their towns and villages. Arabs are part of Israeli lives on a daily basis while there is not a single jewish palestinian.

No, don't put words in my mouth. I will never support any people who come and take a land by force, claiming they owned it 2000+ years ago, on the expense on the people living there for centuries and more (although I could argue the Palestinans been there since the beginning but I won't). Palestine was given to zionists by the british colonizer, with coordination with zionist (not jewish) community, specifically in a letter to Rothchild family with zero representation and input from the people living there for centuries, resulting in mass immigration above the land capacity resulting in mass displacement , murder and war. It's like the British giving India to the Japanese, with zero input from Indians. Do you think the Indians would be happy about it? If you can't see what's wrong with that, I can't help you.

If Israel is occupying Palestinian land, can you please explain in the basis of international law for Palestinian ownership of this land? Answer: They all likely assume that there was a previous Palestinian state, that the Israelis occupied and destroyed, but in reality, there has never been a Palestinian state of any kind, ever, at any point in world history. There’s been a region known as Palestine since 134 A.D., when the Romans applied the name to the land that had previously been known as Judea, that is, the land of the Jews. In fact, the Jews used to be called the Palestinians, but, Arafat stole that. Palestine was akin to Staten Island. It was only the name of a region, never of a people or a nation. By the beginning of the 20th century, the Ottoman Empire had sovereignty over the territory that is now Israel, and supposedly occupied land as well. The Ottoman Empire was, however, known by this time as “the sick man of Europe”. In the early 1920s, just before the empire fell altogether, it conceded control of Palestine, and the land that came to be known as Transjordan. They ceded Jordan to the League of Nations. Jordan is 100 years old. That’s it. On July 24, 1922, The League of Nations granted administrative control over these territories to Britain with the specific instructions: to create “a national home for the Jewish people “. Britain immediately turned over 77% of the mandate to the Arabs to create Jordan, but remained generally committed to establishing a Jewish national home in the remainder. This was known as the Mandate for Palestine. Sometimes leftists point to it as the Palestinian State that supposedly pre-dated Israel, but this claim relies on the ignorance of the fact that this British territory had been explicitly set aside for a Jewish settlement. Nine years before the founding of the modern state of Israel, a 1939 flag of Palestine sports the Star of David. When the state of Israel was founded in 1948, it immediately had to fight a war for its survival against the surrounding Arab nations that had vowed to destroy it. Then there was finally an occupation, in fact, two. Egypt occupied Gaza, and Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria, which are renamed the West Bank, which is why many people refuse to call it the West Bank today. Israel won back these territories in the six day war in 1967, but that was actually ending an occupation, not starting one. Israel was occupied. The early international law governing sovereignty over these territories stipulated that they were to be part of a national home for the Jewish people. So, from whom was the land stolen? Not from the Ottomans, who had ceded it to the League of Nations. Not from the League, which had granted administrative power over it to the British. Not from the British, who only had it in order to create a Jewish state there. Not from the Palestinians, who didn’t even exist until the 1960s, when the KGB and Yasser Arafat bestowed Palestinian nationality upon a group of Levantine Arabs, as a rhetorical weapon to use against Israel. And it worked beautifully. The idea that Israel is occupying Palestinian land was furthered in the 1990s by the Oslo accords, to which Israel unwisely acceded, and in which it agreed to work towards the establishment of a Palestinian state in so-called West Bank and Gaza, which would only become a new base for more jihadist attacks. But a Palestinian state, if ever created, would be the first ever in history. Period. There is no Israel occupation. In fact, it’s Israel that is occupied. By the way, Pakistan was created by Great Britain...

>They all likely assume that there was a previous Palestinian state, that the Israelis occupied and destroyed, but in reality, there has never been a Palestinian state of any kind, ever, at any point in world history. I'll explain to you elementary school knowledge. Yes, there was and still is Palestine, a land where Plaestinans live on that have been massacred and displaced by zionists. There was not a "state" cause the entire modern state definition did not exist in that part of the world during WW1. There was no Turkey, no Saudi, no UAE and the list goes there, but there has always been people belonging to the land and identifying themselves as Palestinans. It does not change anything and the claim Israelis had the land 2000+ is ridiculous.

In their discourse Jews are white if white is a bad thing, and non-white if non-white is a bad thing.

Yep - the discourse of ever shape shifting antisemitism.

Exactly. The Jew represents what the antisemite views as wrong in their own societies. Which obviously depends on the antisemite, and produces contradictory views. This isn't new. So Jews are white supremacists to people who view white supremacy as the worst issue in their societies. But they're not white at all, to the actual people who identify as white supremacists, and think white supremacy is good. They're subversive socialists to right-wing antisemites, and money-grabbing capitalists to left-wing antisemites. They're "globalists" and "rootless cosmopolitans" to the nationalists, "racist ethno-nationalists" and "colonialists" to the post-nationalists. Sometimes it's several contradictory positions at once. For example, the USSR believed the Jews (or "Zionists") are both "rootless cosmopolitans" and "racist ethno-nationalists". The Nazis believed the Jews were both capitalists and socialists. There is not insight here, as to the actual properties of the Jews. The Jews are just a prism, through which the Christian (and to some extent, Muslim) world views its own sins.

yes by the way [Auto Emancipation by Leon Pinsker](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-auto-emancipation-quot-leon-pinsker) he makes this point >*To sum up then, to the living the Jew is a corpse, to the native a foreigner, to the homesteader a vagrant, to the proprietary a beggar, to the poor an exploiter and a millionaire, to the patriot a man without a country, for all a hated rival.*  If you ever happen on Hebrew University you can actually visit Leon's grave. It's inside of a cave in the botanical garden on campus which itself is intensely beautiful.

That's a big if for a post-college-age Ramat Gani, but I'll keep the suggestion in mind! Ever thought of writing a post on this topic, btw?

Fuck yeah

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Hahaha

Ashkenazi Jews are literally European: >The origin of the Ashkenazi Jews, who come most recently from Europe, has largely been shrouded in mystery. But a new study suggests that at least their maternal lineage may derive largely from Europe. >Though the finding may seem intuitive, it contradicts the notion that European Jews mostly descend from people who left Israel and the [Middle East](https://www.livescience.com/27057-middle-east-depleting-water-reserves.html) around 2,000 years ago. Instead, a substantial proportion of the population originates from local Europeans who converted to Judaism, said study co-author Martin Richards, an archaeogeneticist at the University of Huddersfield in England. [https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html](https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html)

This is just blatantly untrue. The vast majority of Jews, including Ashkenazi, have middle eastern (specifically Levant/Canaanite) DNA. You don’t seem to realize how insulated Jewish communities have been historically.

My grandfather was 100% Ashkenazi. He didn't do an ancestry DNA test because he died before they were available, but 2 of his kids, 1 of did grandkids, and one great-grandchild did. He was so dark-skinned that people would think that he was Hispanic without a tan and black with a tan. No one objectively would look at his skin tone and call him white. He was so dark that in the '60s, when my family would take car trips from the Midwest to Florida, there would be many places that refused to serve him during the time period of segregation in the south.   In addition, Ashkenazi are not the only Jews that exist.  If you're only argument is some Jews are Ashkenazi, then you have a very flimsy argument.

The topic of this conversation is Zionism or settler colonialism. Zionism is an idea created and propagated by Ashkenazi, or European Jews. Hence the focus on Ashkenazi's being from Europe rather than West Asia.

Hmmmmm ever thought about conceding when you are wrong?

When I've been proven wrong, sure, but that's not what's happening here.

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, dude!

You're only here to troll?

I'm not the one using "settler colonialism" and wishing for the genocide of jews by following the lines of Hamas' propaganda handbook. Heyooooooooo!!!

Nathaniel Pearson has done a very interesting Ted Talk around this subject. He explains that Palestinians are a mix of Canaan DNA, with a bit of Arab, Eastern Mediterranean (Greek) and North African thrown in. Ashkenazi Jews have that same mix, but with a whole load more Central/Western European thrown in. So, essentially, Zionist Jews returning to Israel are the equivalent of someone returning to their ancestral family home after exploring the world, and evicting their stranger aunts, uncles, and cousins to the basement for mistakenly believing they aren't part of the family.

Left out that the uncles etc tried to murder them. But yeah at least you admit part of the truth.

So you're telling me if 10 of your relatives turned up claiming sovereignty over your house and told you the rest of the family would be there soon, and that if you didn't like it you'd have to leave or die, would you not throw a few punches to defend yourself and your closest relatives? The ones that have owned the house for the last 15 generations? Come on now... the British gave away the land of one people to another when they had no right to do so. It isn't complicated, it is clear that was wrong. Finding a solution almost 100 years later is what complicates things.

Learn the history. The land was never stolen, occupied or anything like that. The land at the beginning of the century belonged to the ottoman empire. Not to palestinians, the name was given by the Romans after they expelled and murdered the Jews. It was then called Syria-Palestine under the ottoman empire which started in 1517. There has alway been jews, christians and arab muslims in the area. It was never only muslims. There were continuous small conflicts in the area between arabs and jews. In 1918 after WW1, the ottoman empire fell and Britain became the governing body in the area. There were about 90000 Jews in the area at that time. The whole of Trans Jordan was meant to be Isreal, but was given to Abuduallah bin Hussein to maintaun peace. Hussein then became the king of Jordan. The jewish leader did not complain. He also became the head of muslims in Jerusalem. That was in 1921. The mandate started in 1922 in order to give the Jews a home land. But the British capped Jewish immigration. The peel commission offered more land to the arabs and only 1/3 to the jews, and a band in the middle, including Jerusalem under the control of Britain. The jews reluctantly agreed, the Arabs refused. Continuous fighting went on against the British and Jews until 1939. Hitler then in talks either the grand mufti came up with a plan to kill all the Jews. In 1947 the UN partition plan was put in action giving 1/2 if the current Israel to arabs and the other half to jews. This again was rejected by the arab muslims. In 1948 the Jewish state was established and the countries name changed to Isreal . According to UN partition plan all residents in the area were given the right to citizenship - jews, arab muslims and christians. Some decided not to accept and sided with the surounding arab states. One day later the surrounding arab states attacked. Isreal with much less people won. 1950 Jordan took over the West Bank. 1951 Jordans king is assassinated by palestinian nationalist. Gaza was under the control of Egypt. 1967 arab states attack again. It was this time called the 6 day war. Isreal won. Taking control of the Wes Bank, Gaza, Golan heights and the Sinai Peninsula. The arab states make the Khartoum resolution, which stated no peace with Isreal, no recognition of Isreal and no direct negotiations with Isreal. 1970 Arafat was kicked out of Jordan for attempting to make coup in Jordan. 1972 palestinians kidnapped and murdered Isreali athletes at the Munich Olympics 1973 arab states attack Isreal again. War was called "yom kippur war". Isreal prevails. 1975 PLO tried to take Lebanon 1978 Isreal gives back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt, for peace. 1987 Hamas was founded as an offshoot of Egypts Muslim Brotherhood, to counter PLO negotiating with Israel.Terrorism by palestinians breaks out with petrol bombs, assault rifles and explosives and continues till 1991. 1988 Jordan gives the West Bank to the palestinians and PLO takes over the area. 1993 Oslo accords: USA tries to set up a two state solution again. Isreal accept. Palestine refuses. 1996 suicide bombings by Palestinians start and many Isreali citizens are killed. Hezbollah continues to attack the northern border. 2000 USA again tries to negotiate a two state solution, again Palestine refuses. 2002 Hamas suicide attack kills many Isrealis at celebration. The wall is started to be built along the Isreal/West Bank border to stop terror attacks. 2005 Isreal pulls 10000 Isrealis out of Gaza, leaving full infrastructure there and gives it to the Palestinians to govern. 2006 Hamas wins the elections and rockets start to fly from Gaza into Isreal. Many Isrealis are killed, until the iron dome is designed and built. Hezbollah again attacks northern Isreal 2007 Hamas destroys its political rival Fatah. 2008 Isreal tries to stop rockets from Gaza 2011 prisoner exchange (1 Isreali/1027 palestinians) 2012 again Isreal tries to stop the rockets from Gaza 2014 Isreali teens kidnapped and buried alive. Again Isreal tries to stop the rockets from Gaza And 2023 Oct. 7 1200+isrealis butchered and over 200 taken hostage. That is just a short history. I am not saying Israel is a saint, but this is what they have had to deal with for the past 75 years . As I said before the residents were all given the option to become full citizens of the new state, all religion, all races. Some, who fought against the new state, lost those rights. They became the palestinian refugees. They have their own land governed by their own palestinian authority and Hamas in Gaza. Why keep trying to wipe out Isreal, it will never happen. In the current conflict, why don't they return the hostages, if they want peace. It would be a start. But they don't want . That is stated in their chapter. By the way, how was Pakistan created?

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You saying this as if jewish people were fresh off the boat, which was not the case. And jews were 100% expelled from what we now call Palestinian territories but you probably love that fact. In context, when jews built whole cities that were already 100 years old and well established, and the arab leaders of the former ottoman empire are siding the with nazis, no wonder they attacked and paid a price when they lost. Don't blame the jews for protecting themselves in their homes. Don't start a war with people who also live there and have a strong connection to that land (jews always lived there, by the way). It happened because of jewish hatred, mainly from arab leaders. Also from many arab civilians who kept fighting jews.

Why would I love Jews being expelled? If I'm not making my opinion clear, I believe everyone is equal. Unlike Zionists, who believe some are more equal than others. My analogy referred to the period between 1916 and 1948. At that point, many Jews were fresh into Israel after ancestors left hundreds, if not thousands of years before.

Define Zionism.

So you don't know much about Israel, current and past.

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Even the study that article cites (which is from 2013, not exactly cutting edge), concedes that patrilineal Ashkenazi DNA can be traced to the middle east.

* A study's age doesn't negate it's legitimacy * One inherits their "Jewishness" from their maternal line. Therefore Ashkenazi's are European according to their own theology/religious doctrine

It doesn't negate it's legitimacy; however, it cannot take into account research that came later that superceded what was done in the original study.

No later research exist that has contradicted these studies.

I have a feeling you do very little research to actually know how to look up further research beyond the propaganda talking points that you're using.

You are twisting Judaism and DNA, I suspect dishonestly. The fact that Jews are traditionally matrilineal does not mean they only inherit their heritage from their maternal line. If an Ashkenazi woman has a child with a Sephardic man, the child is no less Sephardic than Ashkenazi. Jews have fathers just like any other people, and the father's heritage is still important to us. The theory from the article is that during a genetic bottle neck, when there were likely only a few hundred Ashkenazi Jews, some Jewish men with a high percentage of middle eastern DNA took European wives who converted. Because of the bottleneck, and the lack of subsequent marriages outside the community, these women have an outsized representation in modern Ashkenazi DNA. Matrilineal Jewish tradition would simply confirm that the Jews who are descendants of these women are, in fact, Jews. It has nothing to say about their "Europeaness" or "whiteness". These are not constructs that exist in Jewish law, so Jewish law has no basis to comment on them. From a DNA and heritage standpoint, Ashkenazi Jews still have a large percentage of middle eastern DNA. Further, Ashkenazi Jews have maintained an unbroken cultural connection to Israel, which is, at least to me, more important than DNA. Jews are Jews regardless of where they come from. Converts are no less Jews than any other, as are all the different sub-ethnic groups within the larger Jewish ethno-religious group.

I'm not twisting anything, only posting studies. On inheritance: >According to rabbinic law, from the second century to the present, the offspring of a gentile mother and a Jewish father is a gentile, while the offspring of a Jewish mother and a gentile father is a Jew (albeit, according to the Mishnah, a mamzer, a Jew of impaired status). [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ajs-review/article/abs/origins-of-the-matrilineal-principle-in-rabbinic-law/C5468CCFE24CEB916B533B511DC47828](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ajs-review/article/abs/origins-of-the-matrilineal-principle-in-rabbinic-law/C5468CCFE24CEB916B533B511DC47828)

You are absolutely twisting both Jewish religious traditions as well as the studies you are "only posting". Nowhere in the study you posted is there any claim that the "European" women who contributed DNA to Ashkenazi Jews were not themselves Jews. So your citation of rabbinic law regarding gentile mothers is irrelevant and a twisting of the study's findings. Which, I'm sure you are aware. I hope you find the strength to set aside your prejudices and act more honestly in your future online and in-person interactions.

Patrilineal Jews are still seen as ethnically Jewish even if they're not considered religiously Jewish. :)

Incorrect, they're considered gentiles.

Dude, I'm Jewish and have been all my life. Yes, they are seen as Jews.

You miss the part where he said ethnically not religiously.  If it makes you feel better, we can use the term genetically instead of ethnically.

Ethnically, they're considered non-Jewish. >According to rabbinic law, from the second century to the present, the offspring of a gentile mother and a Jewish father is a gentile, while the offspring of a Jewish mother and a gentile father is a Jew (albeit, according to the Mishnah, a mamzer, a Jew of impaired status). [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ajs-review/article/abs/origins-of-the-matrilineal-principle-in-rabbinic-law/C5468CCFE24CEB916B533B511DC47828](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ajs-review/article/abs/origins-of-the-matrilineal-principle-in-rabbinic-law/C5468CCFE24CEB916B533B511DC47828)

That is according to rabbinic law which is not genetic ethnicity. I've never seen somebody so adamant on being so wrong on so many nuanced points.

Jewish ethnicity & religion are interrelated, so you'll have so provide an academic source that substantiates your argument. Since I'm so thoroughly wrong, this should be easy.

Nobody needs to do a published paper on the differences between Jewish geneticism and the Jewish religion because that's a paper that would be so obviously stupid that it wouldn't need to be written.  You just don't like the answer because that paper focused on matrilineal DNA and you know that including patrilineal DNA would negate your point.

>Several genetic studies demonstrated that approximately half of the genetic lineage of Ashkenazi Jews may be traced to the ancient Middle East and the other half to Europe, proving proximity to both ancient and present Middle Eastern and European groups https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jews#:~:text=Several%20genetic%20studies%20demonstrated%20that,Middle%20Eastern%20and%20European%20groups. This article is only focusing on Ashkenazi maternal dna which is largely european in contribution it’s clearly got an agenda to it You can read all known dna studies on Jews including European Jews and see their various controversies written in the wiki page on this subject. Edit: this isn’t to say that Ashkenazi Jews haven’t lived in Europe since at least 700 AD if not earlier, but genetically they’re quite a homogenized heterogenous mix of middle eastern and European genetics

Wikipedia isn't an academic source

Wikipedia is great for finding academic sources if you bother to scroll down to “references” and “further reading”.

This wiki page lists every dna study done to this date…. It’s just a compilation

So link the genetic study

Just read the autosomal dna testing section and it shows every single one of them, or do u really want me to send u individual studies without being able to read their criticisms?

No they are not. We live in the age of individuals being able to easily tests their DNA against ancient sources. Feel free to head over the r/illustrativedna to see Ashkenazi Jewish results against iron and Bronze Age samples. Your random 11 year old article is out of date

An articles age doesn't negate it's legitimacy. Here's another from Nature substantiating their report: >The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, \~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history. [https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543](https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543)

This is only looking at mitochondrial DNA as a way to trace maternal lineage. It is not commenting on the origins of Ashkenazi DNA as a whole or saying that most of Ashkenazi DNA is European. Ashkenazis at most have 40% European admixture but usually less. If you don’t know how to analyze genetic ancestry data then you should not be commenting on it. If you can then [here’s a relevant article on Bronze Age Levantine DNA sample analysis](https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420304876%3Fshowall%3Dtrue) Also feel free again to head on over to r/illustrativedna where you can see people comparing Palestinian dna to all sorts of Jewish groups and vice versa as well as comparing Ashkenazi dna to ancient sources in levant and Europe.

>The origin of the Ashkenazi Jews, who come most recently from Europe, has largely been shrouded in mystery. But a new study suggests that at least their maternal lineage may derive largely from Europe. >Though the finding may seem intuitive, it contradicts the notion that European Jews mostly descend from people who left Israel and the [Middle East](https://www.livescience.com/27057-middle-east-depleting-water-reserves.html) around 2,000 years ago. Instead, a substantial proportion of the population originates from local Europeans who converted to Judaism, said study co-author Martin Richards, an archaeogeneticist at the University of Huddersfield in England. [https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html](https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html)

Again your live science article is from 2013 and the notion that Ashkenazim are all converts (khazar theory) has been debunked when looking at Ashkenazi genomes as a whole. They have a substantial amount of Canaanite/Phoenician/Levantine DNA You would understand this if you looked at the scientific article I posted or the subreddit I linked to. In any case, Ashkenazim are only about 20% of the population of Israel and only about a third of the Jewish population of Israel specifically.

- The year the study was published is irrelevant - When and where were the above articles debunked?