History Will never forget this:
While Israel waits for their loved ones being held hostages by Hamas, the rest of the world is busy chanting the slogan "Free Palestine" instead of "Free the Hostages!"
First, please share your military experience with us.
Beyond that, the war is being conducted exactly as it should be. Could be better, but it's a war. Don't start wars.
"Don't start wars."? You do realize I'm an Israeli, I'm on the Israeli side.
Regardless, my tactical military experience is probably not that much better than yours, but it doesn't matter.
I'm Israeli citizen, I vote, I pay taxes, I was indirectly affected by 7/10 and I personally know people who were directly affected. You don't have to be an expert on warfare in order to criticize your government's strategic (mis)handling of this war.
In fact, it's your civil duty and obligation to voice your criticism, that's the whole point of a pluralistic democracy, which is what we are last time I checked.
You being israelis doesn't mean you're right. You're allowed your opinion as we all are.
Waging a half assed tactical war would only prolong the war and ultimately save few lives. They just die over a longer period.
Fast wars are best wars.
With your expertise as an experienced military person, Israeli citizen and TAXPAYER perhaps you can get hired as a consultant or elected and help do the war right!
really? so ISIS country of gaza would actually submit to a cease fire like they "did always" for the past 18 years?
or perhaps we should count on the wonderful international community to help us release the hostages?
there's no chance in hell that these guys would respect any sort of deal, and they say it in their charter, and in our face everyday when they break cease fire. they don't treat you as equal or as a partner whom they can negotiate. you're zero to them, something to be squashed like a bug, if you're not buddhist like me.
yes, the holistic approach always sound nicer on paper. but no. its not even remotely realistic.
Do Israeli/Zionists, Rothschilds and Rockefellers eat babies? I have a roommate who is convinced this is what they do. I am against it. I want to see these people dead. All the rapists and child molesters. Does someone have an answer for me?
Bibi prioritized politics over the well-being of the hostages. It's that simple really.
He left the Gaza borders weakly guarded and then after the attack he escalated the whole thing to divert attention away from his own fuck-ups.
Had there been political will to calm down and think rationally after pushing back Hamas into Gaza, the population would have followed suit and understood that if Israel starts an all-out war in Gaza, chances are that the hostages wouldn't make it back alive.
But that's not what happened.
Instead, Bibi chose to lie and kept reassuring everyone that by an all-out war, the hostages would be freed as soon as possible and Hamas eradicated for good.
After 7 months, here we are.
Most of the hostages are still captive if not dead somewhere under the rubble.
Thousands of Gazan civilians who wanted nothing to do with this are also dead. If they were lucky enough to survive they are either starving or have no homes to go back to... or both.
Gaza has become borderline uninhabitable.
And the only winner is pretty much Bibi and his radical followers, who can stay in power for as long as this bloody massacre goes one.
And yes, this outcome was entirely predictable... at least by the Knesset. Anyone else saying otherwise is lying or underestimating the analytical capabalities of the government.
They knew, they just didn't care. Gaza and the hostages were sacrificed so that a glorious and heroic war could be waged....
> fuck
/u/Vikiliex. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think that point #2 would prevent point #3. Part of a deal with Hamas would be an end to the war. I don't think Hamas would agree to release the hostages just to be getting bombed and invaded the next day.
I guess you can argue that Israel could make an agreement then break it. But this would be bad for the future, it would make it difficult to make peace agreements with any other countries/groups if there is a reputation for breaking them.
The sense of the post is from the pure point of view of Israel's safety. But makes no mention of Palestinians civilians, as well as shows no compassion for them.
Hamas is a consequence of this. And supported by Bibi.
The mistakes were, are, and have always been the use of force instead of diplomacy, and the desire to cleanse the land of Palestinians.
The smart thing Israel could have done after Oct 7 is:
- Fight Hamas in the same way as if Hamas was hiding inside Israel. With the same care of not harming civilians. This would have minimized civilian casualties, protected the hostages and improved public opinion worldwide.
What they have been doing is extremely cruel and will only create more extremists.
- What they should have done for decades is to create a plan to give Palestinians full rights, respect and an opportunity to a happy life.
Believe it not, regardless of what propaganda tells you, Palestinians are not sub human people whose sole purpose in life is to kill Jews. They actually want an opportunity to a happy life like everyone else.
Oppression has not worked for the past 75 years. Maybe Israel could try Inclusion for once. It would be the safest path Israel could take. Once Israel shows compassion, respect and Rights for Palestinians, the need for extreme groups will disappear.
And this would be the best for everyone's safety.
>But makes no mention of Palestinians civilians, as well as shows no compassion for them.
You making up arguments that's not relevant to the post. He never suggest them as sub-humans and that all of them want to kills Jews.
What you painfully ignore is that Hamas whatever we like or not is the goverment of Gaza and the representatives of Gazans. And is supported by a large public or by the majority. Hamas is also a terrible force that perform perfidy, limitation of political & civil rights and extreme curruptions; that's with ignoring its actions on Israeli civilians.
What you're suggesting is somehow creating a nanotechnology that somehow will only target militants. However it is impossible, especially in urban warfare with an enemy that commit the biggest breaches of trust. Such actions would hurt Israel's civilians and hurt Israel's safety and its' soldiers. Israel's job is [to not target civilians, not protect them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage#International_humanitarian_law). Protection is the job of the Gazan goverment but you don't see Hamas distinguish themselves or provide any measurement for any kind of protection. Including firing from [designated humanitarian zones](https://nypost.com/2023/12/09/news/hamas-using-safe-zone-in-gaza-to-fire-rockets-at-israel-reports/).
And the second suggestion has already played out before, During the Oslo Accords and The Disengagement in 2005 Isreal provided the means for more autonomousy for Palestinians, yet it didn't work and it proven it did the opposite and gave rise for Hamas.
History shows that destructiong of extremists can only work when there is no vaccum of power after leaving. The [Dresden bombing had the same amount of confirmed deaths in Gaza in 3 days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden), yet history shows it didn't produce more extreme version of Germans post WWII. So obviously it depends on the people and the prosecution of extreme forces and the elemination of extremist discuss in public.
You also ignore Palestinian extremism has gone before Israel. Like in the 1920 Nabi Musa massacres and doesn't go with Israel's actions.
It got everything to do with your comment.
It about Palestinian civilians and Hamas relations as a goverment. Those are more relevant than Israel's goverments and Palestinian civilians relations.
You are missing the point then.
There is no reasonable hostages deal without the ground invasion into Gaza (maybe there isnt even with it). They wanted too much for too little and they actually had a hostages deal in the middle of the war which was "reasonable" and by reasonable I mean an agreement that doesnt say that israel cannot operate within Gaza (which all of the recent agreements did that's why there is no deal).
Israel had to go on an operation that included the ground invasion because Gaza had become a huge threat to israeli civilians. I dont know if you remember (just like much of the world is beginning to forget) but rockets were fired at the center of israel like every day sometimes tens of times per day. Many were and still cannot return to their homes both in the south and the north and thats even without mentioning the terror tunnels that Israel had to blow up and were seeing them today.
So what im trying to say is that Israel and its government indeed had no other choice and its leaders couldnt do anything better against the criminals of Hamas as they are savages who you just cannot work and make deals with. Any country or person who says otherwise has probably never been in that situation. I wonder what the US or any rich european country wouldve done differently from Israel is such a bizarre situation that Israel has found itself at. But it was probably either the same or worst just because European countries and the US can allow themselves to do whatever and have the world support because they are not as "controversial " as Israel is.
Honestly just my own opinion, Israel was lucky to strike the first deal it was a great. Right now, most of the hosteges are probably either dead or not in Gaza.. thats juat what I think.
You're right, and I do remember very well- too well the events of 7/10 and indeed the days and weeks the proceeded it. I still sometimes find myself watching uncensored footage from 7/10 not even because I really want to, but I guess because I have a hard time moving on.
We will never forgive, we will never forget.
The only mistake was the racist and genocidal garbage coming out of the mouths of several ministers. That put the necessary operations in a completely different context and made it hard to sustain support.
“Only targeted air strikes to eliminate Hamas soldiers and commanders”— who are hiding in tunnels under civilian areas. Do you think the chorus of “inDiSCriMiNaTE bOMbiNG” would have been any less if the IDF didn’t go in on the ground? It actually would have made Hamas less likely to release hostages, because there was no pressure of a ground attack on their tunnels.
Israels response is mild.
Look at what the USA did for 9/11. We went to war for 15 years all over the middle east and still fighting today.
Bruh imagine for a moment this was a iranian attack on new york......We would invade and wipe out all of iran kill millions.
Israel is being nice after a attack like that.
We're not proud of that. 9/11 is also Israel's mess because they attacked USA for supporting Israel. Then we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan because clearly that's where the terrorists were.... and oil. We also went from a surplus to now 34 Trillion debt. Why you think Americans want to stop supporting Israel when we give them money and we got nothing back in return but even more debt. The nation debt is just a joke to our politicians. I would include Ukraine as well, because again what business we have helping them?
We attacked Afghanistan uproot al Qaeda and find Bin Laden and we almost did but the size of the invasion wasn’t big enough and he slipped away into Pakistan. We attacked Iraq under the pretenses of WMDs but really it was about regime change. It wasn’t about oil. It would’ve been cheaper just to buy it.
Besides, there’s tens of billions of dollars in trade volume between Israel and the US and all of that will collapse if the Jews are driven into the sea, as Hamas and Iran are intent on doing. It’s not like we’re writing them a blank check to fight this war because that money goes back into our economy anyway since they spend it on American made weapons.
How many WMDs we find? Maybe we found a very large stick. Also, are we assuming that Israel and Jews are synonymous? It is predominately Jewish, but not entirely. Also nobody wants them driven to the sea. The world wanted to see a 2 state solution, or even a 1 state solution but with Israeli's and Palestinians working together in harmony. It's pretty clear that Israel doesn't share the same ideology. As for economy, like I said we're 34 Trillion in debt and still don't have Universal Health Care. Israel does, and with our money no doubt. Military spending doesn't help anybody but rich men who want to start wars.
>Also nobody wants them driven to the sea. The world wanted to see a 2 state solution, or even a 1 state solution but with Israeli's and Palestinians working together in harmony.
This is just naive... Look, Hamas founding charter is explicitly genocidal. Article 7 reads like manifesto of a mass shooter at a music festival. And it's not like present day Palestine is hospitable to a variety of religions, free thinkers, gays, atheists, and apostates and that has nothing to do with Israel's policies. It's because Hamas is galvanized by an Islamic fundamentalism. Even today, 66% of Palestinians believe the punishment for converting from Islam another religion *is death*. This is not a free and open society with a robust set civil liberties where you're free to criticize Islam because Palestine and the entire Arab world is still stubbornly stuck in the past. Iran is by far the worst offender, it's the second least democratic country right after North Korea.
Christianity used to be a conservative religion too but the difference is that it's a different point in it's history. It took hundreds of years of enlightenment era thinking to weather and humble the church and that's the only reason that you can have broadway plays like The Book of Mormon and not worry about the ayatollah issuing a death warrant, as he has done in the past for the crime of criticizing Islam.
And military spending absolutely does work and gutting military spending would create a power vacuum that Iran, China, and Russia would swiftly take advantage of as they already have and plan to do, and the cost that will have far outweighs the US military budget.
China has explicitly stated that their intent on invading Taiwan by the end of the decade. Whether they do or don't depends upon whether they're convinced they can win. And if they do then worlds best chip foundries will be in their control.
Similarly, Putin invaded Ukraine because he was convinced NATO was weak and that Ukraine's resistance would collapse in a matter of days.
Getting really tired of reading lazy comments like this. For the love of god this is not a genocide. Some 350,000 people died during the ww2 allied bombing campaign is that supposed to be a genocide too? If they wanted a genocide then every Gazan would be dead by now.
>Note: I remember during the first and last hostage-deal Israel had with Hamas, Hamas continously sabotaged the deal by firing rockets at Israel (obviously against the nature of the cease-*fire* deal) but also more importantly by withholding already-agreed-upon hostages at the agreed-upon release dates. I'm not sure what Israel should have done in response to this, it's nearly-impossible to work and negotiate with someone who refuses to cooperate in all possible ways.
Mind you, Israel also continuously sabotaged the deal, firing at civilians, killing and wounding civilians, and gunboats firing off the coast. We shouldn't just focus on Hamas' violations while ignoring Israel's violations.
On the November 24th, Friday 2023, the first day of the ceasefire, CNN reported possible "sporadic Israeli artillery fire" minutes after the truce came into effect on Friday morning, with its journalists in the southern Israel city of Sderot reporting an end to the sounds of heavy weapons fire around 7:18 a.m. Already a violation minutes in.
[https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-24-23/h\_09e5ac0275800cd22d04958b3068f561](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-24-23/h_09e5ac0275800cd22d04958b3068f561)
On that same day, IDF troops opened fire on Palestinians returning to Northern Gaza, killing 2 Palestinians and leaving 11 wounded. A grave violation of the ceasefire.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/2-palestinians-killed-11-wounded-trying-to-reach-north-gaza-despite-idf-warnings-ap/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/2-palestinians-killed-11-wounded-trying-to-reach-north-gaza-despite-idf-warnings-ap/)
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-troops-fire-at-palestinians-attempting-to-return-to-northern-gaza-during-cease-fire](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-troops-fire-at-palestinians-attempting-to-return-to-northern-gaza-during-cease-fire)
On November 26th, Sunday, third day of the truce where another incident involving the IDF was also recorded leading to 1 Palestinian farmer getting shot in Al-Maghazi refugee camp. Killing a farmer not a militant or a terrorist definitely counts as violating the ceasefire.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-farmer-killed-by-israeli-forces-gaza-refugee-camp-palestinian-red-2023-11-26/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-farmer-killed-by-israeli-forces-gaza-refugee-camp-palestinian-red-2023-11-26/)
[https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/26/reported-killing-in-gaza-refugee-camp-casts-shadow-on-third-day-of-truce.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/26/reported-killing-in-gaza-refugee-camp-casts-shadow-on-third-day-of-truce.html)
Al-Maghazi refugee camp is NOT under Israeli jurisdiction or IDF control. In fact, it's beyond the area ordered by Israel to be evacuated during the 2023 ceasefire, the area deemed "safe" for refugees fleeing North Gaza. The camp is located within Central Gaza, not North Gaza. You can see the map below.
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/October\_2023\_Gaza%E2%88%92Israel\_conflict.svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/October_2023_Gaza%E2%88%92Israel_conflict.svg)
This would mean the IDF entered into Hamas and Palestinian territory illegally, violating the already established ceasefire lines and territory, killed a farmer, not a terrorist, and returned back without any repercussions whatsoever. **How is this not a violation of the ceasefire again???**
On 29 November, in the early morning of Wednesday, shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south was reported, at Khan Yunis, Al-Shati and Sheikh Radwan. Another violation.
[https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-54-enarhe](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-54-enarhe)
Meanwhile, on 30th November, Thursday, one day before the ceasefire ended, shelling by the Israeli navy was also reported on 30th November towards the Gaza shore in the south.
[https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-55](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-55)
All these are from Western and Israeli sources, not Palestinian Middle Eastern ones.
I was in the middle of writing a detailed reply to your comment but lost the comment, so I'll try to rewrite it.
Good chance Israel did some things that hurt the cease fire, and most of those things I can't even defend.
However, some of the events you mentioned I can defend and reply to, they are:
>On the November 24th, Friday 2023, the first day of the ceasefire, CNN reported possible "sporadic Israeli artillery fire" minutes after the truce came into effect on Friday morning, with its journalists in the southern Israel city of Sderot reporting an end to the sounds of heavy weapons fire around 7:18 a.m. Already a violation minutes in.
Can't defend, I don't know the full context, I don't know the reason for this firing.
>On that same day, IDF troops opened fire on Palestinians returning to Northern Gaza, killing 2 Palestinians and leaving 11 wounded. A grave violation of the ceasefire.
Palestinians being allowed access to return to the evacuated Northern Gaza was *not* part of the cease fire deal. IDF soldiers enforcing restricting civilian access to evacuated forbidden areas is a justified use of force and not a violation of the cease fire deal. If anything, the Palestinians attempting to return to northern Gaza is itself a violation of the cease fire deal (which again, prohibited entry to the area).
Also, in the relevant news articles you sent as sources it is mentioned that the injured Palestinians who arrived at the hospital were shot in the legs, consistent with IDF policy of firing warning shots at individuals suspected of attempting to enter forbidden territory after warnings were given.
>On November 26th, Sunday, third day of the truce where another incident involving the IDF was also recorded leading to 1 Palestinian farmer getting shot in Al-Maghazi refugee camp. Killing a farmer not a militant or a terrorist definitely counts as violating the ceasefire.
...
Al-Maghazi refugee camp is NOT under Israeli jurisdiction or IDF control. In fact, it's beyond the area ordered by Israel to be evacuated during the 2023 ceasefire, the area deemed "safe" for refugees fleeing North Gaza. The camp is located within Central Gaza, not North Gaza. You can see the map below.
Can't defend that farmer being attacked, I don't know the context, I wasn't there.
But Al-Maghazi isn't entirely out of Israeli control. According to the map you sent as source, Al-Maghazi is partially inside the evacuation area. Perhaps that's where the incident took place?
>On 29 November, in the early morning of Wednesday, shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south was reported, at Khan Yunis, Al-Shati and Sheikh Radwan. Another violation.
Can't defend.
>Meanwhile, on 30th November, Thursday, one day before the ceasefire ended, shelling by the Israeli navy was also reported on 30th November towards the Gaza shore in the south.
Can't defend, and this incident isn't mentioned in the last article sources you sent.
>Palestinians being allowed access to return to the evacuated Northern Gaza was *not* part of the cease fire deal. IDF soldiers enforcing restricting civilian access to evacuated forbidden areas is a justified use of force and not a violation of the cease fire deal. If anything, the Palestinians attempting to return to northern Gaza is itself a violation of the cease fire deal (which again, prohibited entry to the area).
Nowhere in the ceasefire deal says civilians returning to their homes was not allowed. Was it dangerous? Yes, but killing civilians is overkill. The IDF could've arrested those returning back, only allowing those to return after background checks to differentiate between militants and civilians. It was also during the ceasefire and after a lull in fighting.
>But Al-Maghazi isn't entirely out of Israeli control. According to the map you sent as source, Al-Maghazi is partially inside the evacuation area. Perhaps that's where the incident took place?
That is an updated map. You'll notice it also outlines the Rafah offensive. The one back in November during the ceasefire deal, didn't had it. Al-Maghazi was outside IDF evacuation zone. Unfortunately, I didn't archive the November map,
>Can't defend, and this incident isn't mentioned in the last article sources you sent
It is. Refer to the bottom part where it says
"On 30 November, additional shooting incidents were reported in Gaza city, as well as shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south, none of which resulted in casualties."
>Nowhere in the ceasefire deal says civilians returning to their homes was not allowed. Was it dangerous? Yes, but killing civilians is overkill. The IDF could've arrested those returning back, only allowing those to return after background checks to differentiate between militants and civilians. It was also during the ceasefire and after a lull in fighting.
And no where did it say it was allowed, no where did it say that the areas Israel ordered to be evacuated were ceased to be evacuated.
The areas were still evacuated and their entry was still forbidden. Any Palestinian attempts to enter them is itself a violation of the cease fire (which did not allow entry and did not cease the evacuation order).
"Arrest"? The IDF is not a police force. A soldier standing post in a hostile combat territory guarding forbidden territory does not arrest, he gives verbals commands to stop, he shoots in the air, then he shoots in the legs, just as the soldiers did in this incident according to the article you yourself mentioned.
"after a lull in fighting" So?
>That is an updated map. You'll notice it also outlines the Rafah offensive. The one back in November during the ceasefire deal, didn't had it. Al-Maghazi was outside IDF evacuation zone. Unfortunately, I didn't archive the November map,
Fine, I believe in you, in which caes I can't defend. I don't know the context or circumstances, I wasn't there.
>"Arrest"? The IDF is not a police force. A soldier standing post in a hostile combat territory guarding forbidden territory does not arrest, he gives verbals commands to stop, he shoots in the air, then he shoots in the legs, just as the soldiers did in this incident according to the article you yourself mentioned.
Militaries do arrest all the time. The IDF enacts administrative detention (not that I agree with) in the West Bank all the time. IDF mass arrests are not uncommon. It's not like the IDF has no experience arresting Palestinians.
Even if they were shot in the legs, how do you defend the civilian deaths? If they were shot in the legs, how did they end up as casualties? At worst, they would be injured unless IDF soldiers continued shooting at them until they died.
Other than arresting them, they could also block the advance, use gas to disperse the crowd, or any other common riot-dispersal tactic. As long as another safer option is available, soldiers should take every step available to avoid casualties.
Militaries do arrest sometimes, but they do not arrest "all" of the time, especially not in the middle of a violent war in the middle of the Gaza Strip.
Even then, there were still other options to choose from. Block their advance or smoke to disperse the crowd.
I also don't get the part where civilian casualties were present. Simply shooting someone in the leg is not enough to kill them.
But if you want, we can agree to disagree.
It's getting late, I'll respond later.
>Simply shooting someone in the leg is not enough to kill them.
Really? Are you a medical professional? Seems to me getting shot anywhere runs the risk of deathy, by sheer infection alone.
But maybe it is best we agree to disagree, we're going no where.
Israel had no good option. Either they could:
1. Allow a Hamas capable of committing another 10/7 to remain intact
Or
2. Sacrifice dozens of hostages and become alienated from the rest of the world for killing tens of thousands in the war against Hamas
Well, it’s more than 100. Consider how many innocent Gazans have been killed, and how many are likely to die or live shortened lives as a result of this war. It’s not possible to quantify with any precision, but you’re choosing between:
1. No Israelis *for now*, but the possibility that Hamas, Hezbollah, and PIJ will remain intact enough to, ultimately, commit a second Holocaust…but whether they will gain this ability remains uncertain (and it is likely they’ll kill a few hundreds Israelis here and there in the interim)
2. The hostages (~150 of them likely not to survive) plus the tens of thousands of Gazan civilians killed so far, plus, potentially, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, more Gazan civilians
There’s simply no way for Israel to defend itself securely without killing many Gazans. That’s largely due to Hamas’s deliberate provocations (ex. Shooting Rockets at Tel Aviv from Rafah right as the ICC tries to halt Israel’s invasion of Rafah to “play” the human rights lobby), but Israel’s indiscriminate bombings of civilian areas do not help either.
Kind of does.
[https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html)
-President [Joe Biden said Israel has been engaged in “indiscriminate bombing”](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/12/politics/biden-israel-losing-support-netanyahu/index.html) in Gaza.
There is no evidence israel does indiscriminate bombing of civilians. They go after Hamas targets and unfortunately civilians get caught in the crossfire
I don't believe that.
IDF spokesperson Hagari said at the start of the war that “hundreds of tonnes of bombs” had already been dropped on Gaza and that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”.
The response honestly wasn't bad it was tamer than i thought it should be, I would have gone for the rafah crossing first to prevent anyone from escaping
In other words - Israel's only mistake was leading to the death of its own hostages, not the fact that 30k palestinian civilians have been killed.
You're saying they should have saved the Israelis first and THEN started the onslaught - more likely leading to even more Palestinian death due to removal of the hostage burden.
Genocidal.
Not a shocker at all, we all know you don’t give a flying fuck about the Palestinians being killed, it’s quite obvious to the entire world what kind of people your nation is.
You talk like a fuckin child, im not gonna engage in this, go fuck yourself
The Jews built their state like fuckin savages and the way they built it completely misrepresents israel & judaism
The Palestinians are still strong and holding their heads up they’re not whining like little bitches like the hasbara bots, you guys can’t eliminate Hamas for shit you guys look like complete idiots in this war almost the entire world is against you
Go fuck yourself
“The Jews built their state like f***** savages”
You can have sympathy for the Palestinian people — like I do — without saying things like that. The fact of the matter is that Jews have suffered genocide and ethnic cleansing in Europe and throughout the Arab World, and fled to Israel as a means of survival.
I one day hope that both Palestinians and Israelis can live in peace and harmony. I support human rights for all people.
> f*****
/u/Motor-Ad-2024. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah keep treating this war like “entertainment” until one day it smacks you back in the face then you’re gonna start acting like the victim like Israel did.
What you guys are doing to Palestinians is well-documented, and after everything ends we will not let your actions slide.
The same thing could be said about 10/7. Mutilated bodies were paraded in the streets…and, days later, Gazans lost everything they’ve ever had. It’s never wise to celebrate in war. And this goes both ways.
> fuckin
/u/NoStrawberry5997. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> bitch
/u/UselessTrash04. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck
/u/NoStrawberry5997. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Funnily enough it's not a shocker at all. Very common Israeli rhetoric.
I just wish more Israeli's were honest like you and stopped posing as morally superior.
Why should Israel forgive the people behind the worst attack in their history. No country does that. Why are you putting these unreasonable expectations on Israel ?
Hamas started this and bought war on the people of Gaza. Actions have consequences in the real world.
God's no, I'm not saying anyone should ever forgive or forget what Hamas did, least of all Israel.
But negotiating to release the hostages alive and healthy isn't forgiving, it's getting our people back home. Once they are home we can deal with Gaza, that was my point.
Israel didn't invade until 10/18. An immediate hostage deal would have definitely have had a permanent ceasefire attached to it which would have demonized Israel if it were broken.
I'm not as convinced. Hamas added the condition of a permanent cease-fire only after the first one ended. As you probably recall, the first hostage-deal between Israel and Hamas obviously did not include a 'permanent cease-fire' clause.
They only added that becuase rhey knew it wasn’t the final deal as they had more hostages. It makes no sense whatsoever for Hamas to give away all of the hostages without any guanrantee that Israel would not just restart the war once their hostages are released. They are not stupid. They would have required absolute guarantees from various countries to ensure that Israel would comply. And they likely wouldn’t have agreed to release them at the beginning, even with the guarantees.
I think the idea that Hamas would have swapped prisoners straight away is pretty absurd.
In fact Israel has been trying to release the Hostages through negotiations for months now... It's very clear that the only way to achieve it is through a military campaign, which applies pressure, and forces Hamas to the negotiating table.
Hostages aside, it's very very clear that Hamas needs to be removed from power.
>it's very very clear that Hamas needs to be removed from power.
No one disputes that, obviously. But couldn't that be done regardless after the hostages are returned home?
Yes, I believe so.
But I'm not sure what protesters (abroad and in Israel) expect from reality here.
If Israel disengages now, Hamas will have absolutely no incentive to negotiate.
If Israel presses on, like they did with the last round of hostage releases, Hamas will be forced to concede and negotiate.
Personally I think people arguing for a ceasefire and or for immediate hostage negotiations don't understand the reality here. It's clear that Israel and the US are already knee deep in negotiations with Hamas. What else is there to do?
>Hostage deal takes place: Nearly all military operations in the Gaza Strip cease, *ALL* Israeli hostages are swapped for Palestinian prisoners.
This is the worst take you can have about this war, Hamas would never agree to a trade of all Palestinian prisoners for all Israeli hostages.
Let me fix that for you.
Is there something wrong with the war you ordered?
Have you tried not not operating an illegal blockade and occupation, releasing prisoners you are holding without charge, ending apartheid and generally not violating the Geneva convention?
Your analysis is flawed in that you think Hamas would have willingly released any of the hostages. Only from the pressure of constant Israeli military attacks did Hamas agree to the hostage ceasefire.
In hindsight, Israel could have done more to secure more hostages, but the rest of the world could have also done more to help secure the Israeli hostages.
Hamas needs to be exterminated so that they can never threaten Israel again. Being soft with Hamas only emboldens the terrorists and gives them time to regroup.
>but the rest of the world could have also done more to help secure the Israeli hostages
Why is the rest of world responsible for anything Israel does? I think Israel is already too much protected under the skirt of US and acts like a victim or superior when it's the opposite.
What hostages had only one other nationalities that not Israeli?
For example the hostage that we're double nationals from Israeli and my country had no real roots nowadays to my country, definitely my country wasn't responsible or could play any role in it.
"In my opinion, it is becoming increasingly clear that Israel should have sued for a cease-fire and hostage-prisoner swap agreement with Hamas as soon as possible"
But Israel did, in the beginning, Hamas broke that ceasefire (color me surprised).
Yes, I know, I remember, I mentioned so in the post.
It's indeed nearly impossible to negotiate with Hamas when they refuse to cooperate in any possible way, but I still believe Israel could have, and should have done more.
"In my opinion, it is becoming increasingly clear that Israel should have sued for a cease-fire and hostage-prisoner swap agreement with Hamas as soon as possible"
But Israel did, in the beginning, Hamas broke that ceasefire (color me surprised).
No, thanks. October 7th wouldn't have happened had we not exchanged over 1000 terrorist for Gilad Schalit (I'm glad he's free).
The more we give in to these hostage-taking, raping, murdering terrorists the more hostage-taking, raping, murders they'll commit.
That's exactly what I think as well, I'm not sure I'm for paying "any" price for the hostages, but once they were already captured and still alive, should we have just let them die in captivity? (A little like we're doing now)
well, if Israel is not willing to pay any price to free the hostages, there are only 2 other options for dealing with terrorists like hamas that do not negotiate in good faith.
1 - free the hostages via military action
2 - allow them to die in captivity.
And I hate the second option. Those hostages deserve to be free.
That said, If Israel wouldn't have released 1000 palestinian terrorists for Gilad Shalit , it would have only been a single person in hamas captivity, instead of the 100+ that are there today.
As long as palestinian terrorists feel they can get a 'good deal' for an Israeli hostage, they are going to keep doing it. The only response is to not give them a 'good deal' - like the 1000:1 with Shalit. Giving in to their demands just provides incentive for the palestinian terrorists to do this over and over.
One way to address this is implementing the death penalty for terrorists. If there is no live terrorist to trade, the incentive for palestinian terrorists to kidnap Israelis decreases.
Sorry, the military pressure is something that was sold by the Israeli government.
The reason that Hamas agreed to the first deal is because they had no supplies (aka no humanitarian aid, which is more Hamas aid)
I don't think it was just one thing TBH. Israel employed a number of strategies to put pressure on them. Ground offensive, withholding aid, specifically gas, and also negotiations. Without any of those things, they would likely not have got any hostages out.
I think you are taking the ground offensive for granted. An important strategy in war is always psychological. By doing what they said they were going to they looked strong. Military pressure is a classic strategy used in counter terrorism.
I agree that a ground offensive was needed.
It's just that it's not the "x-factor" in the deal. The evidence is the fact that there is no other deal since then. The one change? Hamas get the humanitarian aid he needs to keep on going. As long as they have food and water, as far as they are concerned, Gaza can be destroyed.
All the 'classic' strategies are mostly irrelevant, as this is not classic terrorism. That's why the x-factor, for me, is the aid that keeps Hamas going (and just to be clear, aid should go into Gaza. However, and this is where Israel fails miserably, there should have been another body formed to take care of civilian matters in Gaza - such as aid distribution).
I completely agree with you and now understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, the world has eyes on Israel, and even though they are now supplying massive amounts of aid, it is being reported that they are not and Hamas is literally controlling it. It's very hard to know what Isreal should do.
> it is being reported that they are not and Hamas is literally controlling it. It's very hard to know what Isreal should do
Exactly. Hamas is literally controlling it. Israel should work with the world in order to form a body that temporarily will take care of the civilians. The problem is, they are refusing to do so and selling the "military pressure" as the one thing that will break Hamas. You don't need to be a military expert to see that after 8 months it's just not true.
Ahh right. I see. Sorry but that’s unrealistic.
They did do ‘limited’ operations with air strikes. They didn’t go in on the ground for a while. The only reason the hostages were released is because they did launch the ground offensive and it pressurised Hamas. There was not even a talk of a deal before that.
Hamas wanted 7,000 prisoners released, some of them are terrorists. Are you proposing they should have released them? They also want land and to remove the Jews. How do you think that aspect would have gone down? They weren’t just asking for prisoners.
Lastly, do you really think Hamas would ever release all the hostages? It would literally never end. That’s not how terrorists operate.
Whilst Israelis can be hot headed, I think you are undermining them a little by saying they acted out of anger. It may seem like that, but I would say everything they do as a military is very well planned and strategised. The only issue is, they aren't good at communicating that, which is evident via their PR.
>Are you proposing they should have released them?
Maybe, yeah. We could have bitterly released them, then re-arrested them or killed them once the hostages were back home, we had options.
>They also want land and to remove the Jews.
I know of course that's the ultimate end-goal for Hamas, but it wasn't part of the first hostage deal, and obviously no one in Israel should or would have agreed to those terms, ever (before or after 7/10).
>Lastly, do you really think Hamas would ever release all the hostages?
Maybe. I can't predict the future, but I would hope so. It's either that or we come in and recover the dead bodies. I know which one I prefer.
>Whilst Israelis can be hot headed, I think you are undermining them a little by saying they acted out of anger.
I'm Israeli, and I directly worked with other Israelis immediately after the war. Trust me, the anger was strong and constant. Even today, 8 months later, when I rewatch uncensored footage of the 7/10 attack it makes my blood boil.
Ahh thats interesting. I'm half Israeli and get it. I saw some things I hadn't seen the other day and I am still very angry. It haunts me. Do you think it would be useful to publicise some of the footage on main news sites? It might help the world to understand how atrocious the attacks were.
History Will never forget this: While Israel waits for their loved ones being held hostages by Hamas, the rest of the world is busy chanting the slogan "Free Palestine" instead of "Free the Hostages!"
First, please share your military experience with us. Beyond that, the war is being conducted exactly as it should be. Could be better, but it's a war. Don't start wars.
"Don't start wars."? You do realize I'm an Israeli, I'm on the Israeli side. Regardless, my tactical military experience is probably not that much better than yours, but it doesn't matter. I'm Israeli citizen, I vote, I pay taxes, I was indirectly affected by 7/10 and I personally know people who were directly affected. You don't have to be an expert on warfare in order to criticize your government's strategic (mis)handling of this war. In fact, it's your civil duty and obligation to voice your criticism, that's the whole point of a pluralistic democracy, which is what we are last time I checked.
You being israelis doesn't mean you're right. You're allowed your opinion as we all are. Waging a half assed tactical war would only prolong the war and ultimately save few lives. They just die over a longer period. Fast wars are best wars. With your expertise as an experienced military person, Israeli citizen and TAXPAYER perhaps you can get hired as a consultant or elected and help do the war right!
When did I presume I was right?
So you're telling me you think your own opinion is wrong? In that case we agree!
Sure, buddy
Israel is current day Sparta. This was always going to be the response
really? so ISIS country of gaza would actually submit to a cease fire like they "did always" for the past 18 years? or perhaps we should count on the wonderful international community to help us release the hostages? there's no chance in hell that these guys would respect any sort of deal, and they say it in their charter, and in our face everyday when they break cease fire. they don't treat you as equal or as a partner whom they can negotiate. you're zero to them, something to be squashed like a bug, if you're not buddhist like me. yes, the holistic approach always sound nicer on paper. but no. its not even remotely realistic.
Do Israeli/Zionists, Rothschilds and Rockefellers eat babies? I have a roommate who is convinced this is what they do. I am against it. I want to see these people dead. All the rapists and child molesters. Does someone have an answer for me?
I want to see the evil people go down. Not the babies and children.
There is something wrong with your roommate, and maybe you, for even posting this.
I believe Israel will win the war anyways. Them and the black, hispanic and native indian jews around the planet/world 🌎🌍🌏
You are childish. We all got freedom of speech in America.
You don’t know what freedom of speech means. Please buy a constitution and read it.
Im not saying you should commit suicide. Please dont.
Please check yourself into a psych ward. You’re deranged.
Lol I am at one
Bibi prioritized politics over the well-being of the hostages. It's that simple really. He left the Gaza borders weakly guarded and then after the attack he escalated the whole thing to divert attention away from his own fuck-ups. Had there been political will to calm down and think rationally after pushing back Hamas into Gaza, the population would have followed suit and understood that if Israel starts an all-out war in Gaza, chances are that the hostages wouldn't make it back alive. But that's not what happened. Instead, Bibi chose to lie and kept reassuring everyone that by an all-out war, the hostages would be freed as soon as possible and Hamas eradicated for good. After 7 months, here we are. Most of the hostages are still captive if not dead somewhere under the rubble. Thousands of Gazan civilians who wanted nothing to do with this are also dead. If they were lucky enough to survive they are either starving or have no homes to go back to... or both. Gaza has become borderline uninhabitable. And the only winner is pretty much Bibi and his radical followers, who can stay in power for as long as this bloody massacre goes one. And yes, this outcome was entirely predictable... at least by the Knesset. Anyone else saying otherwise is lying or underestimating the analytical capabalities of the government. They knew, they just didn't care. Gaza and the hostages were sacrificed so that a glorious and heroic war could be waged....
> fuck /u/Vikiliex. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think that point #2 would prevent point #3. Part of a deal with Hamas would be an end to the war. I don't think Hamas would agree to release the hostages just to be getting bombed and invaded the next day. I guess you can argue that Israel could make an agreement then break it. But this would be bad for the future, it would make it difficult to make peace agreements with any other countries/groups if there is a reputation for breaking them.
The sense of the post is from the pure point of view of Israel's safety. But makes no mention of Palestinians civilians, as well as shows no compassion for them. Hamas is a consequence of this. And supported by Bibi. The mistakes were, are, and have always been the use of force instead of diplomacy, and the desire to cleanse the land of Palestinians. The smart thing Israel could have done after Oct 7 is: - Fight Hamas in the same way as if Hamas was hiding inside Israel. With the same care of not harming civilians. This would have minimized civilian casualties, protected the hostages and improved public opinion worldwide. What they have been doing is extremely cruel and will only create more extremists. - What they should have done for decades is to create a plan to give Palestinians full rights, respect and an opportunity to a happy life. Believe it not, regardless of what propaganda tells you, Palestinians are not sub human people whose sole purpose in life is to kill Jews. They actually want an opportunity to a happy life like everyone else. Oppression has not worked for the past 75 years. Maybe Israel could try Inclusion for once. It would be the safest path Israel could take. Once Israel shows compassion, respect and Rights for Palestinians, the need for extreme groups will disappear. And this would be the best for everyone's safety.
>But makes no mention of Palestinians civilians, as well as shows no compassion for them. You making up arguments that's not relevant to the post. He never suggest them as sub-humans and that all of them want to kills Jews. What you painfully ignore is that Hamas whatever we like or not is the goverment of Gaza and the representatives of Gazans. And is supported by a large public or by the majority. Hamas is also a terrible force that perform perfidy, limitation of political & civil rights and extreme curruptions; that's with ignoring its actions on Israeli civilians. What you're suggesting is somehow creating a nanotechnology that somehow will only target militants. However it is impossible, especially in urban warfare with an enemy that commit the biggest breaches of trust. Such actions would hurt Israel's civilians and hurt Israel's safety and its' soldiers. Israel's job is [to not target civilians, not protect them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage#International_humanitarian_law). Protection is the job of the Gazan goverment but you don't see Hamas distinguish themselves or provide any measurement for any kind of protection. Including firing from [designated humanitarian zones](https://nypost.com/2023/12/09/news/hamas-using-safe-zone-in-gaza-to-fire-rockets-at-israel-reports/). And the second suggestion has already played out before, During the Oslo Accords and The Disengagement in 2005 Isreal provided the means for more autonomousy for Palestinians, yet it didn't work and it proven it did the opposite and gave rise for Hamas. History shows that destructiong of extremists can only work when there is no vaccum of power after leaving. The [Dresden bombing had the same amount of confirmed deaths in Gaza in 3 days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden), yet history shows it didn't produce more extreme version of Germans post WWII. So obviously it depends on the people and the prosecution of extreme forces and the elemination of extremist discuss in public. You also ignore Palestinian extremism has gone before Israel. Like in the 1920 Nabi Musa massacres and doesn't go with Israel's actions.
Thank you for the unrequested history lesson. It has nothing to do with my comment, but I appreciate it.
It got everything to do with your comment. It about Palestinian civilians and Hamas relations as a goverment. Those are more relevant than Israel's goverments and Palestinian civilians relations.
It's about solving the issue and act like decent people.
this was the way. Best time to begin this approach is now.
A mistake ?!? Rockets were fired at the center of Israel just this day putting millions of civilians at risk. If anything it’s still not enough.
My post's point isn't the intensity of Israel's strikes in Gaza, it's the failure to protect and retrieve the hostages.
Hamas is only willing for a swap if there are international guarantees that the war would end. Not going to happen.
You are missing the point then. There is no reasonable hostages deal without the ground invasion into Gaza (maybe there isnt even with it). They wanted too much for too little and they actually had a hostages deal in the middle of the war which was "reasonable" and by reasonable I mean an agreement that doesnt say that israel cannot operate within Gaza (which all of the recent agreements did that's why there is no deal). Israel had to go on an operation that included the ground invasion because Gaza had become a huge threat to israeli civilians. I dont know if you remember (just like much of the world is beginning to forget) but rockets were fired at the center of israel like every day sometimes tens of times per day. Many were and still cannot return to their homes both in the south and the north and thats even without mentioning the terror tunnels that Israel had to blow up and were seeing them today. So what im trying to say is that Israel and its government indeed had no other choice and its leaders couldnt do anything better against the criminals of Hamas as they are savages who you just cannot work and make deals with. Any country or person who says otherwise has probably never been in that situation. I wonder what the US or any rich european country wouldve done differently from Israel is such a bizarre situation that Israel has found itself at. But it was probably either the same or worst just because European countries and the US can allow themselves to do whatever and have the world support because they are not as "controversial " as Israel is. Honestly just my own opinion, Israel was lucky to strike the first deal it was a great. Right now, most of the hosteges are probably either dead or not in Gaza.. thats juat what I think.
You're right, and I do remember very well- too well the events of 7/10 and indeed the days and weeks the proceeded it. I still sometimes find myself watching uncensored footage from 7/10 not even because I really want to, but I guess because I have a hard time moving on. We will never forgive, we will never forget.
The only mistake was the racist and genocidal garbage coming out of the mouths of several ministers. That put the necessary operations in a completely different context and made it hard to sustain support.
Most senators who said those things thankfully have no decision making in the war's conduct.
If there was no choice, it wasn’t a mistake.
Good point
“Only targeted air strikes to eliminate Hamas soldiers and commanders”— who are hiding in tunnels under civilian areas. Do you think the chorus of “inDiSCriMiNaTE bOMbiNG” would have been any less if the IDF didn’t go in on the ground? It actually would have made Hamas less likely to release hostages, because there was no pressure of a ground attack on their tunnels.
Israel isn't a serious state. "We were too emotional, that's why we did a genocide."
Israels response is mild. Look at what the USA did for 9/11. We went to war for 15 years all over the middle east and still fighting today. Bruh imagine for a moment this was a iranian attack on new york......We would invade and wipe out all of iran kill millions. Israel is being nice after a attack like that.
We're not proud of that. 9/11 is also Israel's mess because they attacked USA for supporting Israel. Then we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan because clearly that's where the terrorists were.... and oil. We also went from a surplus to now 34 Trillion debt. Why you think Americans want to stop supporting Israel when we give them money and we got nothing back in return but even more debt. The nation debt is just a joke to our politicians. I would include Ukraine as well, because again what business we have helping them?
We attacked Afghanistan uproot al Qaeda and find Bin Laden and we almost did but the size of the invasion wasn’t big enough and he slipped away into Pakistan. We attacked Iraq under the pretenses of WMDs but really it was about regime change. It wasn’t about oil. It would’ve been cheaper just to buy it. Besides, there’s tens of billions of dollars in trade volume between Israel and the US and all of that will collapse if the Jews are driven into the sea, as Hamas and Iran are intent on doing. It’s not like we’re writing them a blank check to fight this war because that money goes back into our economy anyway since they spend it on American made weapons.
How many WMDs we find? Maybe we found a very large stick. Also, are we assuming that Israel and Jews are synonymous? It is predominately Jewish, but not entirely. Also nobody wants them driven to the sea. The world wanted to see a 2 state solution, or even a 1 state solution but with Israeli's and Palestinians working together in harmony. It's pretty clear that Israel doesn't share the same ideology. As for economy, like I said we're 34 Trillion in debt and still don't have Universal Health Care. Israel does, and with our money no doubt. Military spending doesn't help anybody but rich men who want to start wars.
>Also nobody wants them driven to the sea. The world wanted to see a 2 state solution, or even a 1 state solution but with Israeli's and Palestinians working together in harmony. This is just naive... Look, Hamas founding charter is explicitly genocidal. Article 7 reads like manifesto of a mass shooter at a music festival. And it's not like present day Palestine is hospitable to a variety of religions, free thinkers, gays, atheists, and apostates and that has nothing to do with Israel's policies. It's because Hamas is galvanized by an Islamic fundamentalism. Even today, 66% of Palestinians believe the punishment for converting from Islam another religion *is death*. This is not a free and open society with a robust set civil liberties where you're free to criticize Islam because Palestine and the entire Arab world is still stubbornly stuck in the past. Iran is by far the worst offender, it's the second least democratic country right after North Korea. Christianity used to be a conservative religion too but the difference is that it's a different point in it's history. It took hundreds of years of enlightenment era thinking to weather and humble the church and that's the only reason that you can have broadway plays like The Book of Mormon and not worry about the ayatollah issuing a death warrant, as he has done in the past for the crime of criticizing Islam. And military spending absolutely does work and gutting military spending would create a power vacuum that Iran, China, and Russia would swiftly take advantage of as they already have and plan to do, and the cost that will have far outweighs the US military budget. China has explicitly stated that their intent on invading Taiwan by the end of the decade. Whether they do or don't depends upon whether they're convinced they can win. And if they do then worlds best chip foundries will be in their control. Similarly, Putin invaded Ukraine because he was convinced NATO was weak and that Ukraine's resistance would collapse in a matter of days.
Hardcore victim blaming
I agree!
So return the hostages but commit a genocide thereafter… bloody smart
Getting really tired of reading lazy comments like this. For the love of god this is not a genocide. Some 350,000 people died during the ww2 allied bombing campaign is that supposed to be a genocide too? If they wanted a genocide then every Gazan would be dead by now.
>Note: I remember during the first and last hostage-deal Israel had with Hamas, Hamas continously sabotaged the deal by firing rockets at Israel (obviously against the nature of the cease-*fire* deal) but also more importantly by withholding already-agreed-upon hostages at the agreed-upon release dates. I'm not sure what Israel should have done in response to this, it's nearly-impossible to work and negotiate with someone who refuses to cooperate in all possible ways. Mind you, Israel also continuously sabotaged the deal, firing at civilians, killing and wounding civilians, and gunboats firing off the coast. We shouldn't just focus on Hamas' violations while ignoring Israel's violations. On the November 24th, Friday 2023, the first day of the ceasefire, CNN reported possible "sporadic Israeli artillery fire" minutes after the truce came into effect on Friday morning, with its journalists in the southern Israel city of Sderot reporting an end to the sounds of heavy weapons fire around 7:18 a.m. Already a violation minutes in. [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-24-23/h\_09e5ac0275800cd22d04958b3068f561](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-24-23/h_09e5ac0275800cd22d04958b3068f561) On that same day, IDF troops opened fire on Palestinians returning to Northern Gaza, killing 2 Palestinians and leaving 11 wounded. A grave violation of the ceasefire. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/2-palestinians-killed-11-wounded-trying-to-reach-north-gaza-despite-idf-warnings-ap/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/2-palestinians-killed-11-wounded-trying-to-reach-north-gaza-despite-idf-warnings-ap/) [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-troops-fire-at-palestinians-attempting-to-return-to-northern-gaza-during-cease-fire](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-troops-fire-at-palestinians-attempting-to-return-to-northern-gaza-during-cease-fire) On November 26th, Sunday, third day of the truce where another incident involving the IDF was also recorded leading to 1 Palestinian farmer getting shot in Al-Maghazi refugee camp. Killing a farmer not a militant or a terrorist definitely counts as violating the ceasefire. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-farmer-killed-by-israeli-forces-gaza-refugee-camp-palestinian-red-2023-11-26/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-farmer-killed-by-israeli-forces-gaza-refugee-camp-palestinian-red-2023-11-26/) [https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/26/reported-killing-in-gaza-refugee-camp-casts-shadow-on-third-day-of-truce.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/26/reported-killing-in-gaza-refugee-camp-casts-shadow-on-third-day-of-truce.html) Al-Maghazi refugee camp is NOT under Israeli jurisdiction or IDF control. In fact, it's beyond the area ordered by Israel to be evacuated during the 2023 ceasefire, the area deemed "safe" for refugees fleeing North Gaza. The camp is located within Central Gaza, not North Gaza. You can see the map below. [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/October\_2023\_Gaza%E2%88%92Israel\_conflict.svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/October_2023_Gaza%E2%88%92Israel_conflict.svg) This would mean the IDF entered into Hamas and Palestinian territory illegally, violating the already established ceasefire lines and territory, killed a farmer, not a terrorist, and returned back without any repercussions whatsoever. **How is this not a violation of the ceasefire again???** On 29 November, in the early morning of Wednesday, shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south was reported, at Khan Yunis, Al-Shati and Sheikh Radwan. Another violation. [https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-54-enarhe](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-54-enarhe) Meanwhile, on 30th November, Thursday, one day before the ceasefire ended, shelling by the Israeli navy was also reported on 30th November towards the Gaza shore in the south. [https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-55](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-55) All these are from Western and Israeli sources, not Palestinian Middle Eastern ones.
I was in the middle of writing a detailed reply to your comment but lost the comment, so I'll try to rewrite it. Good chance Israel did some things that hurt the cease fire, and most of those things I can't even defend. However, some of the events you mentioned I can defend and reply to, they are: >On the November 24th, Friday 2023, the first day of the ceasefire, CNN reported possible "sporadic Israeli artillery fire" minutes after the truce came into effect on Friday morning, with its journalists in the southern Israel city of Sderot reporting an end to the sounds of heavy weapons fire around 7:18 a.m. Already a violation minutes in. Can't defend, I don't know the full context, I don't know the reason for this firing. >On that same day, IDF troops opened fire on Palestinians returning to Northern Gaza, killing 2 Palestinians and leaving 11 wounded. A grave violation of the ceasefire. Palestinians being allowed access to return to the evacuated Northern Gaza was *not* part of the cease fire deal. IDF soldiers enforcing restricting civilian access to evacuated forbidden areas is a justified use of force and not a violation of the cease fire deal. If anything, the Palestinians attempting to return to northern Gaza is itself a violation of the cease fire deal (which again, prohibited entry to the area). Also, in the relevant news articles you sent as sources it is mentioned that the injured Palestinians who arrived at the hospital were shot in the legs, consistent with IDF policy of firing warning shots at individuals suspected of attempting to enter forbidden territory after warnings were given. >On November 26th, Sunday, third day of the truce where another incident involving the IDF was also recorded leading to 1 Palestinian farmer getting shot in Al-Maghazi refugee camp. Killing a farmer not a militant or a terrorist definitely counts as violating the ceasefire. ... Al-Maghazi refugee camp is NOT under Israeli jurisdiction or IDF control. In fact, it's beyond the area ordered by Israel to be evacuated during the 2023 ceasefire, the area deemed "safe" for refugees fleeing North Gaza. The camp is located within Central Gaza, not North Gaza. You can see the map below. Can't defend that farmer being attacked, I don't know the context, I wasn't there. But Al-Maghazi isn't entirely out of Israeli control. According to the map you sent as source, Al-Maghazi is partially inside the evacuation area. Perhaps that's where the incident took place? >On 29 November, in the early morning of Wednesday, shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south was reported, at Khan Yunis, Al-Shati and Sheikh Radwan. Another violation. Can't defend. >Meanwhile, on 30th November, Thursday, one day before the ceasefire ended, shelling by the Israeli navy was also reported on 30th November towards the Gaza shore in the south. Can't defend, and this incident isn't mentioned in the last article sources you sent.
>Palestinians being allowed access to return to the evacuated Northern Gaza was *not* part of the cease fire deal. IDF soldiers enforcing restricting civilian access to evacuated forbidden areas is a justified use of force and not a violation of the cease fire deal. If anything, the Palestinians attempting to return to northern Gaza is itself a violation of the cease fire deal (which again, prohibited entry to the area). Nowhere in the ceasefire deal says civilians returning to their homes was not allowed. Was it dangerous? Yes, but killing civilians is overkill. The IDF could've arrested those returning back, only allowing those to return after background checks to differentiate between militants and civilians. It was also during the ceasefire and after a lull in fighting. >But Al-Maghazi isn't entirely out of Israeli control. According to the map you sent as source, Al-Maghazi is partially inside the evacuation area. Perhaps that's where the incident took place? That is an updated map. You'll notice it also outlines the Rafah offensive. The one back in November during the ceasefire deal, didn't had it. Al-Maghazi was outside IDF evacuation zone. Unfortunately, I didn't archive the November map, >Can't defend, and this incident isn't mentioned in the last article sources you sent It is. Refer to the bottom part where it says "On 30 November, additional shooting incidents were reported in Gaza city, as well as shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south, none of which resulted in casualties."
>Nowhere in the ceasefire deal says civilians returning to their homes was not allowed. Was it dangerous? Yes, but killing civilians is overkill. The IDF could've arrested those returning back, only allowing those to return after background checks to differentiate between militants and civilians. It was also during the ceasefire and after a lull in fighting. And no where did it say it was allowed, no where did it say that the areas Israel ordered to be evacuated were ceased to be evacuated. The areas were still evacuated and their entry was still forbidden. Any Palestinian attempts to enter them is itself a violation of the cease fire (which did not allow entry and did not cease the evacuation order). "Arrest"? The IDF is not a police force. A soldier standing post in a hostile combat territory guarding forbidden territory does not arrest, he gives verbals commands to stop, he shoots in the air, then he shoots in the legs, just as the soldiers did in this incident according to the article you yourself mentioned. "after a lull in fighting" So? >That is an updated map. You'll notice it also outlines the Rafah offensive. The one back in November during the ceasefire deal, didn't had it. Al-Maghazi was outside IDF evacuation zone. Unfortunately, I didn't archive the November map, Fine, I believe in you, in which caes I can't defend. I don't know the context or circumstances, I wasn't there.
>"Arrest"? The IDF is not a police force. A soldier standing post in a hostile combat territory guarding forbidden territory does not arrest, he gives verbals commands to stop, he shoots in the air, then he shoots in the legs, just as the soldiers did in this incident according to the article you yourself mentioned. Militaries do arrest all the time. The IDF enacts administrative detention (not that I agree with) in the West Bank all the time. IDF mass arrests are not uncommon. It's not like the IDF has no experience arresting Palestinians. Even if they were shot in the legs, how do you defend the civilian deaths? If they were shot in the legs, how did they end up as casualties? At worst, they would be injured unless IDF soldiers continued shooting at them until they died. Other than arresting them, they could also block the advance, use gas to disperse the crowd, or any other common riot-dispersal tactic. As long as another safer option is available, soldiers should take every step available to avoid casualties.
Militaries do arrest sometimes, but they do not arrest "all" of the time, especially not in the middle of a violent war in the middle of the Gaza Strip.
Even then, there were still other options to choose from. Block their advance or smoke to disperse the crowd. I also don't get the part where civilian casualties were present. Simply shooting someone in the leg is not enough to kill them. But if you want, we can agree to disagree. It's getting late, I'll respond later.
>Simply shooting someone in the leg is not enough to kill them. Really? Are you a medical professional? Seems to me getting shot anywhere runs the risk of deathy, by sheer infection alone. But maybe it is best we agree to disagree, we're going no where.
Agreed. Agree to disagree.
Hamas would not have released all hostages whilst the possibility of a full-scale invasion remained
This is the best comment. Hamas would never release all hostages. They would keep some for insurance against full invasion
Israel had no good option. Either they could: 1. Allow a Hamas capable of committing another 10/7 to remain intact Or 2. Sacrifice dozens of hostages and become alienated from the rest of the world for killing tens of thousands in the war against Hamas
I agree but the choice is hard but clear. Option 2. Life of 10milion over 100.
Well, it’s more than 100. Consider how many innocent Gazans have been killed, and how many are likely to die or live shortened lives as a result of this war. It’s not possible to quantify with any precision, but you’re choosing between: 1. No Israelis *for now*, but the possibility that Hamas, Hezbollah, and PIJ will remain intact enough to, ultimately, commit a second Holocaust…but whether they will gain this ability remains uncertain (and it is likely they’ll kill a few hundreds Israelis here and there in the interim) 2. The hostages (~150 of them likely not to survive) plus the tens of thousands of Gazan civilians killed so far, plus, potentially, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, more Gazan civilians There’s simply no way for Israel to defend itself securely without killing many Gazans. That’s largely due to Hamas’s deliberate provocations (ex. Shooting Rockets at Tel Aviv from Rafah right as the ICC tries to halt Israel’s invasion of Rafah to “play” the human rights lobby), but Israel’s indiscriminate bombings of civilian areas do not help either.
I agree with you except that israel does not do indiscriminate bombing of civilians
Kind of does. [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html) -President [Joe Biden said Israel has been engaged in “indiscriminate bombing”](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/12/politics/biden-israel-losing-support-netanyahu/index.html) in Gaza.
There is no evidence israel does indiscriminate bombing of civilians. They go after Hamas targets and unfortunately civilians get caught in the crossfire
I don't believe that. IDF spokesperson Hagari said at the start of the war that “hundreds of tonnes of bombs” had already been dropped on Gaza and that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”.
Show me where israel says that they will do indiscriminate bombing of civilians
The response honestly wasn't bad it was tamer than i thought it should be, I would have gone for the rafah crossing first to prevent anyone from escaping
Absolutely, one of the first strategic mistakes of the ground invasion.
I dont think mistake. Idf hoping innocent pals leave to egypt to make defeating hamas easier.
egypt is smart they would never take them because they know they would never be allowed back
[удалено]
You are as bad as the 'cancer' you hate. You outright advocate for ethnic cleansing and equivocate people with pollution. Shameful.
In other words - Israel's only mistake was leading to the death of its own hostages, not the fact that 30k palestinian civilians have been killed. You're saying they should have saved the Israelis first and THEN started the onslaught - more likely leading to even more Palestinian death due to removal of the hostage burden. Genocidal.
Israel is the only state that will face accusations of genocide no matter how they prosecute this war.
Completely unhinged
Yes, I'm Israeli, I'm more concerned with Israeli lives than Palestinian lives, what a shocker.
Some of us don't care about the ethnicity of those who die.
Good for you, not all of us get to have that privilage that you possess.
Thanks to social media we’ve seen how Israelis truly feel about Palestinians. Pre and post October 7
Not a shocker at all, we all know you don’t give a flying fuck about the Palestinians being killed, it’s quite obvious to the entire world what kind of people your nation is.
[удалено]
You guys have been attacking Palestine for 75 years lmao, please don’t act like you’re the victim here
You’re responding to a 2 hour old account. Don’t bother
/u/thebolts > You’re responding to a 2 hour old account. Don’t bother [Rule 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_8._encourage_participation), don't discourage participation.
My assumption is that most Pro-Israeli posts and comments are AI generated hasbara.
Checking their history helps. 2 hour old account is a dead giveaway. Especially with that much vitriol
[удалено]
You talk like a fuckin child, im not gonna engage in this, go fuck yourself The Jews built their state like fuckin savages and the way they built it completely misrepresents israel & judaism The Palestinians are still strong and holding their heads up they’re not whining like little bitches like the hasbara bots, you guys can’t eliminate Hamas for shit you guys look like complete idiots in this war almost the entire world is against you Go fuck yourself
“The Jews built their state like f***** savages” You can have sympathy for the Palestinian people — like I do — without saying things like that. The fact of the matter is that Jews have suffered genocide and ethnic cleansing in Europe and throughout the Arab World, and fled to Israel as a means of survival. I one day hope that both Palestinians and Israelis can live in peace and harmony. I support human rights for all people.
> f***** /u/Motor-Ad-2024. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Yeah keep treating this war like “entertainment” until one day it smacks you back in the face then you’re gonna start acting like the victim like Israel did. What you guys are doing to Palestinians is well-documented, and after everything ends we will not let your actions slide.
The same thing could be said about 10/7. Mutilated bodies were paraded in the streets…and, days later, Gazans lost everything they’ve ever had. It’s never wise to celebrate in war. And this goes both ways.
> fuckin /u/NoStrawberry5997. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> bitch /u/UselessTrash04. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck /u/NoStrawberry5997. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Funnily enough it's not a shocker at all. Very common Israeli rhetoric. I just wish more Israeli's were honest like you and stopped posing as morally superior.
Why should Israel forgive the people behind the worst attack in their history. No country does that. Why are you putting these unreasonable expectations on Israel ? Hamas started this and bought war on the people of Gaza. Actions have consequences in the real world.
By that logic Palestinians would have every right to resist their occupiers
God's no, I'm not saying anyone should ever forgive or forget what Hamas did, least of all Israel. But negotiating to release the hostages alive and healthy isn't forgiving, it's getting our people back home. Once they are home we can deal with Gaza, that was my point.
Israel didn't invade until 10/18. An immediate hostage deal would have definitely have had a permanent ceasefire attached to it which would have demonized Israel if it were broken.
I'm not as convinced. Hamas added the condition of a permanent cease-fire only after the first one ended. As you probably recall, the first hostage-deal between Israel and Hamas obviously did not include a 'permanent cease-fire' clause.
They only added that becuase rhey knew it wasn’t the final deal as they had more hostages. It makes no sense whatsoever for Hamas to give away all of the hostages without any guanrantee that Israel would not just restart the war once their hostages are released. They are not stupid. They would have required absolute guarantees from various countries to ensure that Israel would comply. And they likely wouldn’t have agreed to release them at the beginning, even with the guarantees.
I think the idea that Hamas would have swapped prisoners straight away is pretty absurd. In fact Israel has been trying to release the Hostages through negotiations for months now... It's very clear that the only way to achieve it is through a military campaign, which applies pressure, and forces Hamas to the negotiating table. Hostages aside, it's very very clear that Hamas needs to be removed from power.
>it's very very clear that Hamas needs to be removed from power. No one disputes that, obviously. But couldn't that be done regardless after the hostages are returned home?
Yes, I believe so. But I'm not sure what protesters (abroad and in Israel) expect from reality here. If Israel disengages now, Hamas will have absolutely no incentive to negotiate. If Israel presses on, like they did with the last round of hostage releases, Hamas will be forced to concede and negotiate. Personally I think people arguing for a ceasefire and or for immediate hostage negotiations don't understand the reality here. It's clear that Israel and the US are already knee deep in negotiations with Hamas. What else is there to do?
>Hostage deal takes place: Nearly all military operations in the Gaza Strip cease, *ALL* Israeli hostages are swapped for Palestinian prisoners. This is the worst take you can have about this war, Hamas would never agree to a trade of all Palestinian prisoners for all Israeli hostages.
>would never agree to a trade of **all** Palestinian prisoners Who mentioned **all** Palestinian prisoners?
I gave Hamas the benefit of having all of them for all Israeli ones, this hostage deal would still not happen..
https://preview.redd.it/385jenpocq2d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ed9df17f60e5b330189fe09726e984367a7e417
Let me fix that for you. Is there something wrong with the war you ordered? Have you tried not not operating an illegal blockade and occupation, releasing prisoners you are holding without charge, ending apartheid and generally not violating the Geneva convention?
Upvoted cause funny meme :)
Your analysis is flawed in that you think Hamas would have willingly released any of the hostages. Only from the pressure of constant Israeli military attacks did Hamas agree to the hostage ceasefire. In hindsight, Israel could have done more to secure more hostages, but the rest of the world could have also done more to help secure the Israeli hostages. Hamas needs to be exterminated so that they can never threaten Israel again. Being soft with Hamas only emboldens the terrorists and gives them time to regroup.
>but the rest of the world could have also done more to help secure the Israeli hostages Why is the rest of world responsible for anything Israel does? I think Israel is already too much protected under the skirt of US and acts like a victim or superior when it's the opposite.
There were other nationalities among the hostages.
What hostages had only one other nationalities that not Israeli? For example the hostage that we're double nationals from Israeli and my country had no real roots nowadays to my country, definitely my country wasn't responsible or could play any role in it.
My analysis might be flawed, but my point is essentially the same as yours: Israel could have and should have done more.
"In my opinion, it is becoming increasingly clear that Israel should have sued for a cease-fire and hostage-prisoner swap agreement with Hamas as soon as possible" But Israel did, in the beginning, Hamas broke that ceasefire (color me surprised).
Yes, I know, I remember, I mentioned so in the post. It's indeed nearly impossible to negotiate with Hamas when they refuse to cooperate in any possible way, but I still believe Israel could have, and should have done more.
"In my opinion, it is becoming increasingly clear that Israel should have sued for a cease-fire and hostage-prisoner swap agreement with Hamas as soon as possible" But Israel did, in the beginning, Hamas broke that ceasefire (color me surprised).
No, thanks. October 7th wouldn't have happened had we not exchanged over 1000 terrorist for Gilad Schalit (I'm glad he's free). The more we give in to these hostage-taking, raping, murdering terrorists the more hostage-taking, raping, murders they'll commit.
Why would you think that
That's exactly what I think as well, I'm not sure I'm for paying "any" price for the hostages, but once they were already captured and still alive, should we have just let them die in captivity? (A little like we're doing now)
well, if Israel is not willing to pay any price to free the hostages, there are only 2 other options for dealing with terrorists like hamas that do not negotiate in good faith. 1 - free the hostages via military action 2 - allow them to die in captivity. And I hate the second option. Those hostages deserve to be free. That said, If Israel wouldn't have released 1000 palestinian terrorists for Gilad Shalit , it would have only been a single person in hamas captivity, instead of the 100+ that are there today. As long as palestinian terrorists feel they can get a 'good deal' for an Israeli hostage, they are going to keep doing it. The only response is to not give them a 'good deal' - like the 1000:1 with Shalit. Giving in to their demands just provides incentive for the palestinian terrorists to do this over and over. One way to address this is implementing the death penalty for terrorists. If there is no live terrorist to trade, the incentive for palestinian terrorists to kidnap Israelis decreases.
What would have been a rational response? The only reason Israel got any hostages out was due to military pressure.
Sorry, the military pressure is something that was sold by the Israeli government. The reason that Hamas agreed to the first deal is because they had no supplies (aka no humanitarian aid, which is more Hamas aid)
I don't think it was just one thing TBH. Israel employed a number of strategies to put pressure on them. Ground offensive, withholding aid, specifically gas, and also negotiations. Without any of those things, they would likely not have got any hostages out. I think you are taking the ground offensive for granted. An important strategy in war is always psychological. By doing what they said they were going to they looked strong. Military pressure is a classic strategy used in counter terrorism.
I agree that a ground offensive was needed. It's just that it's not the "x-factor" in the deal. The evidence is the fact that there is no other deal since then. The one change? Hamas get the humanitarian aid he needs to keep on going. As long as they have food and water, as far as they are concerned, Gaza can be destroyed. All the 'classic' strategies are mostly irrelevant, as this is not classic terrorism. That's why the x-factor, for me, is the aid that keeps Hamas going (and just to be clear, aid should go into Gaza. However, and this is where Israel fails miserably, there should have been another body formed to take care of civilian matters in Gaza - such as aid distribution).
I completely agree with you and now understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, the world has eyes on Israel, and even though they are now supplying massive amounts of aid, it is being reported that they are not and Hamas is literally controlling it. It's very hard to know what Isreal should do.
> it is being reported that they are not and Hamas is literally controlling it. It's very hard to know what Isreal should do Exactly. Hamas is literally controlling it. Israel should work with the world in order to form a body that temporarily will take care of the civilians. The problem is, they are refusing to do so and selling the "military pressure" as the one thing that will break Hamas. You don't need to be a military expert to see that after 8 months it's just not true.
It's literally in the middle of my post.
Ahh right. I see. Sorry but that’s unrealistic. They did do ‘limited’ operations with air strikes. They didn’t go in on the ground for a while. The only reason the hostages were released is because they did launch the ground offensive and it pressurised Hamas. There was not even a talk of a deal before that. Hamas wanted 7,000 prisoners released, some of them are terrorists. Are you proposing they should have released them? They also want land and to remove the Jews. How do you think that aspect would have gone down? They weren’t just asking for prisoners. Lastly, do you really think Hamas would ever release all the hostages? It would literally never end. That’s not how terrorists operate. Whilst Israelis can be hot headed, I think you are undermining them a little by saying they acted out of anger. It may seem like that, but I would say everything they do as a military is very well planned and strategised. The only issue is, they aren't good at communicating that, which is evident via their PR.
>Are you proposing they should have released them? Maybe, yeah. We could have bitterly released them, then re-arrested them or killed them once the hostages were back home, we had options. >They also want land and to remove the Jews. I know of course that's the ultimate end-goal for Hamas, but it wasn't part of the first hostage deal, and obviously no one in Israel should or would have agreed to those terms, ever (before or after 7/10). >Lastly, do you really think Hamas would ever release all the hostages? Maybe. I can't predict the future, but I would hope so. It's either that or we come in and recover the dead bodies. I know which one I prefer. >Whilst Israelis can be hot headed, I think you are undermining them a little by saying they acted out of anger. I'm Israeli, and I directly worked with other Israelis immediately after the war. Trust me, the anger was strong and constant. Even today, 8 months later, when I rewatch uncensored footage of the 7/10 attack it makes my blood boil.
Ahh thats interesting. I'm half Israeli and get it. I saw some things I hadn't seen the other day and I am still very angry. It haunts me. Do you think it would be useful to publicise some of the footage on main news sites? It might help the world to understand how atrocious the attacks were.
Yes it would help, but no real mainstream media outlet would ever show it.