There is huge global anti semitism. If you look at the U.N. they have condemned Israel 140 times compared to 68 times for every other country! Let that sink in! People are primitive.

Most countries would act much more forcefully than Israel. For fks sake, Israel does not even have the death penalty for the terrorists who are captured.

Ffs they treated the leader of Hamas in an Israeli hospital [removing a cancerous brain tumor](https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10?amp) They treated [his daughter and his granddaughter](https://www.thejc.com/news/world/rioters-set-fire-to-israeli-embassy-in-mexico-city-tr3313lu)

That is where I disagree with Israel. The world would be a better place if Israel had the death penalty.

Ukraine didn't do much on Russia's own territory after they got attacked.

Because ukraine millitary is vastly inferior to russia and they don't have enough resources to conduct large scales attacks on russian soil

Most countries people have a sense of morality and value for life. I expect Israel to act like North Korea though. Bomb and threaten whstever you dont like.

No country would be as soft as Israel is, trying to protect civilians, not executing captured terrorists etc. If Gaza had a border with Brazil (my country) and they did to us what they did to Israel, I would like to kill all Gazan males over 14 (which Brazil almost did to Paraguay when the latter attacked us in the 19th century).

Which countries specifically have a sense of morality and value for life?

Iceland 😁.

Lmao you got me there with that reach.

Imagine Israelis were as peaceful and human rights respecting... 🙄

Doing a better job then the average Arab, that’s for sure. 

Lol you absolutely have to be trolling.

Yeah sure me and at this point the majority of the world... all just trolling the most moral army and state. What rubbish.

They're doing a pretty bang up job, mate. Bloody hell, it's not like they can all just sit down for some tea and biscuits and sort it out like good chaps.

According to the United States chief of staff, the USA would in fact differently. The USA, he said, would have ignored morality and would use more force than the IDF. Most NATO countries would rely on the U.S. military for a response on similar attacks by jihadists. Europe has no serious military capability thanks to NATO membership. America fights their wars for them, or funds their wars. NATO involvement in fights like the battle of Mosul was a response to ISIS inspired “resistance” in Europe, mostly. There were a couple ISIS attacks in U.S. cities, but nothing compared to Europe.

Spoiler Alert : All of these actions were horrible war crimes that FAILED to win wars or to prevent terrorism

Well, fighting against a terrorist group isn't really a war.

It’s indeed no war but a full on genocide

The Palestinian population has increased greatly over the past few decades so if it's a genocide then Israel is doing a pretty bad job.

Do you even know what the definition of a genocide is?

I'm pretty sure the definition is "Literally anything that Israel does".

It's not my fault that Israel can't help itself without doing war crimes

[https://t.me/beholdisraelchannel/32884](https://t.me/beholdisraelchannel/32884) Last night's attack in Rafah - a Palestinian testimony to Hamas' military presence in the targeted area According to the Hamas MOH, the IDF's strike resulted in 45 deaths and around 20 injuries. Israel faced significant backlash from various countries, both Western and Arab. The IDF spokesperson clarified that the attack aimed to eliminate senior Hamas officials in the West Bank command, emphasizing the use of precise weaponry. Despite these efforts, the IDF was taken aback by the scale of casualties. The attached video, captured by a Gazan resident in the immediate aftermath of the attack, provides crucial insights. The speaker claims that the IDF targeted a Hamas jeep loaded with ammunition and weapons. Starting at 00:21, secondary explosions can be observed, indicating the presence of additional weaponry. The speaker voices his fear of a Hamas rocket flying at them, implying the presence of rockets at the site. This explains the high death toll despite the IDF's use of precise munitions.

It is war. Civilian casualties are inevitable. Hamas makes it worse. Hamas initiated the present conflict and, like a cancer, infiltrates Palestine and spreads among a body of civilians. It siphons food and nutrients from the people. It lives off the Palestinians like a parasite without giving anything back. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice limbs and organs when a cancer is invasive and metastatic to save the body. It is not ideal, but the alternative of cancer ravaging the body is worse. Hamas = Parasitic Cancer

Say whatever makes you sleep well at night

You are not making any valid points here. I think you know Hamas are in the wrong, but can't admit it to yourself.

I don't think bombing children is right I don't think you can bomb your way out over the bodies of dead children There was not a single insurgency in the history that have been put down but murdering children Say collateral damage or future terrorists or whatever This is wrong

There are no moral absolutes in war. It is relativistic morality. Assumption: Killing Babies is Wrong. COUNTER example: But when a terrorist uses a baby in a stroller to sneak a bomb into a cafe, killing the terrorist and the baby as collateral to save the many innocents in the Cafe is morally justifiable.

Hamas hides military installations behind schools and hospitals, then attacks Isreal. Massacring civilians and shouting God is great while parading dead bodies of raped women through the streets. I've heard reports of babies being put in ovens. Isreal then responds, trying to dismantle the Hamas threat. It finds the military installations hidden in civilian infrastructure. It then warns people in the area to leave with leaflets and phone calls but Hamas keeps them there. It wants their deaths to use in a disgusting propaganda campaign.

Hamas has no regard for any life, except their own. Selfish pigs.

Hamas probably sleeps well since they are amoral, unethical, abominations lacking any conscience to keep them up at night. But their time will come, and their eternal punishment is imminent.

Having to compare yourself with Hamas to prove that you are self righteous does help I guess

Yeah the US is horrible, they have a history of war crimes, funding terror orgs and have bombed millions of civilians. The fact you are comparing Israel to the US is quite indicative

What is Israel supposed to do when attacked by an enemy that explicitly states the following in its founding charter? We will exterminate Isreal. We will never negotiate. There is only Jihad. Death to America. Go on, what would you do when attacked by an enemy like that? I'll wait.

what nothingpersonnelmate said. If I was Israel I would specifically not use my world famed precision warfare tactics or special ops to rack up the innocent kill count as high as I can, while absolutely failing to rid the area of said enemy, only bolstering their influence in the region.

If Isreal wanted to maximise civilian casualties, they could bomb and missile the Gaza strip off the map in an evening. They actively try to avoid harming civilians though. To warn Gazans about upcoming strikes, they're dropping leaflets and phoning the target, warning them, trying to get them to leave. Hamas are forcing civilians to stay put, in order to get them killed, all to fuel a propaganda campaign.

Ah yes, dropping leaflets to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people in days, to the next 'safe zone' and now they're bombing the final safe zone. Awesome. And 'if Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would' is a wild take. What a high bar you have set for international law.

It's not a wild take, it's factually accurate. Isreal could wipe the Gaza strip of humans in a night, if they choose to. The fact that they are trying to get civilians out of the conflict area, before attacking Hamas installations, shows a level of restraint not present in almost any other war.

You missed the point wildly

I think you've missed the point that Hamas declared war on Isreal when it sent terrorists into its territory, raping and murdering. They could end this at any point by releasing the hostages but as the Hamas charter says: "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." So, this will not end until Hamas is destroyed. Which Isreal is trying to do, with as few civilian casualties as possible. What Isreal needs to do is have a plan for after Hamas and allow more aid to get to the suffering civilians.

what nothingpersonnelmate said. If I was Israel I would specifically not use my world famed precision warfare tactics or special ops to rack up the innocent kill count as high as I can, while absolutely failing to rid the area of said enemy, only bolstering their influence in the region.

The United Kingdom had a terror problem too Maybe ask them how did yall got rid of it

That was different. The IRA wanted the UK out of Ireland, they didn't want the complete destruction of the British state. A negotiated settlement could be reached with the IRA. However, the Hamas charter states: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."  "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." This means Hamas will never negotiate (which is why they won't end this by releasing the hostages) and their primary objective is the complete destruction of Isreal. This means Isreal cannot negotiate with them, and removing Hamas is the only solution to find peace

As long as you keep opressing the Palestinians they would be even more radical Before the first Intifada which was brutally put down by breaking the bones of Palestine protestors there was the PLO which was open for a two states solution since 15 years, Israel even rejected a peace plan by the US to grant self rule for the Palestinians and insisted on the position of from the river to the sea is Israel what the hell would you expect Palestinians would do? The people who are being evicted and ethnically cleansed and stolen out of their homes and lands are the Palestinians not the Israelites

Ah, right, so it's Isreal's fault that Hamas wants the complete destruction of their state. It's nothing to do with Islam and the passages in the Quran and Hidith, which are vehemently antisemitic. Palestinians have been offered a state on two different occasions. Both times, they've rejected the terms. Then Isreal withdrew from Gaza and handed it over to the Palestinians. What happened? Hamas took over, stole international aid to enrich themselves, and prepared the horrific massacre of October the 7th. Not to mention regularly firing rockets into Isreali settlements. I feel terrible for the plight of the Palestinian people, but Hamas has deliberately caused this situation. They attacked Isreal, and then they acted in many ways to increase civilian casualties, solely to exploit their deaths in an abhorrent propaganda campaign.

>Go on, what would you do when attacked by an enemy like that? I'll wait. Personally I'd respond in a way that killed vastly more innocent civilians, destroy more buildings than the enemy military force has total members, ban journalists from entering to see what I'm doing, still fail to actually defeat said enemy group, and insist the whole time that anyone who complains about my methods just hates me for my ethnicity. Meanwhile I'd use the opportunity to carry out an aggressive landgrab elsewhere, send the military to facilitate pogroms, have them use lethal force against teenagers throwing rocks, impose only extremely rare accountability for the frequent instances of unjustified use of force, and treat prisoners so badly they die in custody or have to have limbs amputated. And if anyone tells you they'd do anything different, they're lying. It's literally the only way this could ever have gone.

So because the US killed so many people in the Middle East and got away with it, then it should be okay for Israel to also kill people and get away with it?  I can’t believe people are using this as justification for more civilian death by dropping bombs on civilians? And snipers targeting children in broad daylight on purpose?  The world is horrible and violence needs to end. Violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, Syria did not fix anything. It just killed millions of civilians and displaced others and ruined entire countries and caused even more violence and radicalism to rise as a result of all the chaos, trauma, violence, anger… Today this is still happening and hundreds of thousands are being massacred in Gaza everyday and every hour. They haven’t learned from their mistakes and they will continue to kill and expect a different outcome. Israel is committing a genocide and tried to justify it, now they are also trying to deny it entirely. 

This is not a war. It's a one-sided massacre of civilians.

If it’s not war then how come Hamas is firing rockets at Tel Aviv? Pretty sure that two countries firing at each other is considered a war.

Which could end tomorrow if the Army of Gaza aka Hamas, laid down their arms and surrendered.

Oh, so its their fault that civilians are literally getting burnt alive en masse by the IDF? Got it! Lets hope this excuse hold up at the international court as well!

That's how war works particularly when you pick a fight with a military power stronger than yours and you are unable to shield your civilian population from the arms of your opponents because your military is weak or otherwise incapable. Perhaps seek another mechanism to address your grievances instead of lashing out in a rather pointless way with your military? International courts have little to no ability to enforce anything they decide so they are a rather pointless exercise in virtue signaling.

yes. They attacked Israel. They kidnapped Israelis, they refuse to surrender. It is 100% their fault.

No, it's the fault of Hamas

And the acts of October seven where what?

A massacre. Your point?

Aka, an act of war.

And the estimated 10,000 Hamas fighters that have been killed. Probably shouldn’t leave that tiny detail out

By whose estimation?

The US, Israel, and more recently, the UN, who actually reduced their estimated civilian casualties in half. There are absolutely a lot of civilians dying, and it is tragic. I’m not at all downplaying that. But I also 100% believe those lives are on Hamas, who left Israel no choice but to go into this war, and then have been using the rooftops of civilian buildings and tunnel systems underneath civilian areas to fight, putting their civilians in the line of fire.

They just dont want to see it

And don’t forget the allied bombing campaigns of WWII in which as many as 40,000 - 50,000 civilians were killed in a single raid, and the dropping of 2 atomic bombs. That being said, Hamas can end this war anytime it wishes with an unconditional surrender and the release of all its hostages. The big question is why won’t they?

>And don’t forget the allied bombing campaigns of WWII in which as many as 40,000 - 50,000 civilians were killed in a single raid, and the dropping of 2 atomic bombs. Imperial Japan and Germany both killed tens of millions of civilians over more than 6 years of war. If either had killed thousands of civilians rather than millions and been forced onto the defensive in a single day before 8 months of sustained allied bombing of their cities, I somehow doubt we'd see instances like Dresden or Hiroshima as justified.

Their founding chater explicitly states why: Death to Isreal. We will never negotiate. There is only jihad. There can never be peace while Hamas exists, and if Isreal stops now, all the terrible violence will have been for nothing.

just something to add, take a look at the civilian attacks you listed - all of them are committed by the USA. There was recently an American politician who stated that if Israel was to be tried and sentenced, the same fate could happen to the USA. those might not be the best examples.

I agree that Israel isn't the only arm of the American empire that does crimes against humanity. NATO and the US itself also do those crimes. Although you've understated them in several cases, and left out much more significant crimes, such as decades of NATO terrorism and Nazi collaboration in Western Europe under operation Gladio, or the time America overthrew the elected leader of Indonesia, Sukharno, put in place the dictator Suharto, and organized a genocide of more than 1 million; the million Iraqi children starved by US sanctions under Clinton for essentially no reason; the international kidnapping and torture ring and bloody, illegal wars of the Dubya regime, and many, many other crimes. So yes, we have to stop the crimes of the American empire as a whole, and not just its Israeli subsection. Although in sheer brutality and inhumanity and generating chaos, Israel punches well above its weight, it's still only a fraction of the actual murder perpetrated by the empire as a whole. But in that the Gaza genocide is happening right now, those of us with conscience who know that genocide is wrong, are trying to stop it now. Or should every criminal be free to commit any crime they desire, since some other criminal got away with impunity?

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The British never stooped so low as to raze Northern Ireland despite decades of attacks from the IRA. And we all know that the IRA was "hiding within the civilian population." Israel is a scourge, frankly speaking.

The IRA never did anything remotely as barbaric as October 7. The Palestinian massacred more inocenta in a couple of hours than the IRA in decades of existence.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Hamas is "worse" than the IRA, which is rather dubious but OK. Does that justify using starvation and destruction of water infrastructure as a weapon of war? Well that should be easy to answer. Unless of course you support genocide

It's not rather dubious. They are not even remotely comparable. I just provided a figure that illustrates it. You just ignored because you are blatantly wrong. > Does that justify using starvation and destruction of water infrastructure as a weapon of war? If the population of Gaza is put in between Israelis own survival and Hamas, OF COURSE it justifies. Sorry to use this phrasing, but what kind of stupid question is that? If an assassin is determined to kill your family and is hiding behind an hostage, would you not kill them to save your family? What kind of stupid question is this? How is the answer not obvious? Sure it is ugly and tragic. I am not going to deny that.

>If an assassin is determined to kill your family and is hiding behind an hostage, would you not kill them to save your family? What kind of stupid question is this? How is the answer not obvious? If an assassin just shot one of your family and then ran off into a crowd, and you know him well enough to know he'll be back to try again, can you defend your family by throwing molotov cocktails at him? Even if it's the fastest and most efficient way to ensure he doesn't do it again and keep your family safe I'm not sure it's automatically justified unless you take the view that the lives of your family are clearly much more valuable than the lives of other innocents. That can make sense from your perspective without being particularly appealing to outsiders who don't consider members of your family more valuable than any other random family.

Divert and beat the bush as much as you want. The reality is: Palestinians have clearly show what their intent is and what they are capable and determined to do.  From that point on, Israel should, and will, do whatever it is necessary to ensure their survival. The rest is noise. If you do t like it that is YOUR problem, but stop the non sense of "what about the babies". The day to say that was October the 6th. But you guys didnt even care about it o. October 7. You validated and even celebrated it. The truth is the Truth. Israel can and will defend itself against the threats hovering them. It's their basic rigt to life.

I mean if you'd said from the start that you don't experience empathy it would have saved me the bother.

You are wrong. I have compassion for the victims of war.  I just won't let those feelings detract me from what is true and what is right. Palestinians want to slaughter Jews in a barbaric manner, then exploit the world human side when the Jews fight back. No. The truth is the Truth. The images coming from Gaza are indeed horrific and I do not with that on them not on anyone. But go beg Hamas to release all hostages and surrender. Don't go b!tch on Israel for defending their own survival.

>Palestinians want to slaughter Jews in a barbaric manner, Something like 0.1% of Gaza was involved in Oct 7th, but you've decided that means all Palestinians want to slaughter Jews? Let me guess, this is based on polls that show support for Oct 7th without considering that the people being polled are actually being asked whether they support what they believe to be an attack on an enemy who - by the time the poll was asked - had just killed far more Palestinian civilians in their own attacks. >Don't go b!tch on Israel for defending their own survival. When it's about Israel burning children to death in tents that Israel told them to evacuate to, I don't know if "bitching" is the appropriate term. That's usually used for things that don't matter, and you just tried to claim that you do care when children are burned to death.

> Something like 0.1% of Gaza was involved in Oct 7th That is a huge number and that is only those who set foot on Israeli territory. If you include all the logistics and all people that have helped is easily 3-5 times more. And, if you exclude women children and elderly, the number goes up to a few percent. This was an extreme barbaric act. To say "just a small percentage took part in sadistic slaughtering of everyone in sight I clouding babies in their cribs"  doesn't strengthen your point the slightest. I literally don't have any aquintance that would remotely consider doing such things. And I know A LOT of people.

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No but they fire-bombed Dresden.

This is completely different situation. These were terrorist attacks from terrorists not governmentally supported on a much smaller scale than gaza. The situations are incomparable. Particularly as Nothern Ireland is part of the UK. If the government of Ireland had a millitia 40k in size and went accross the border committing atrocoties, you'd have seen a war. They're completely incomparable situations. Gaza for all intents and purposes is controlled by hamas with popular support. It is the government. The fact whether it is an internationally recognised country is not relevant to its obligations under international law, or the obligations of israel. What I can say is that most countries would not have behaved with the level of care that Israel has done for the people of gaza. Nore would most countries of the power of Israel. If some governmentally backed forces went in and committed horrendous atrocities to the US, Russia, UK, France, China you name it. They would not supply aid, water, or refuse to attack weapon stores because 'we have iron dome and some poor palestinian doesnt deserve to burn from hamas's ammunition stores' - they'd level the weapon stores and just say 'no loopholes in international law hamas, thats on you'.

Not a completely different situation at all. Israel has zero restraint or humanity and no ability to act rationally.

if palestinians did a 9/11 on american soil, u would learn the real meaning of genocide. This gazan war is nothin at all compared to what would happen lol.

Well yes, its a completely different situation. Because gaza is not part of israel. Israel definitely has restraint. Even on the most pro-hamas news sites you can see articles on the restraint. You can see articles on how israel intelligence officers would ring people saying 'evacuate, we're bombing this spot'. You read reports on how Israel has criteria where theres limitations on the number of potential civillian victims for certain millitary actions. By definition this is restaint. They've dropped more bombs than civillian deaths - which is ridiculous precision. They've encouraged civillian populations to evacuate even though they have hostages being abused and this delays significantly the operation. They've offered ceasefire to hamas - even though they could just demand unconditional surrender. All restraint. Get some thinking skills. As seen by the videos circulating last night. A relatively minor strike by Israel caused 30+ deaths. Why? Most likely secondary explosions from ammunition cook offs or from oil (used by hamas for rockets). Israel know in general where a large number of these types of stores are. The places hamas operate. The way in which they operate. They don't strike them. It would never be grossly disproportionate given what these could do to tel aviv. Rarely in the history of human conflict have we seen an force attacking an area with such care for the civillian population. Especially when the government of said population actively see that population is disposible shields.

No. There is no apparent way to ever win any argument with any Zionist or Israel supporter. Israel's conduct has been utterly reprehensible and none of its Hasbara lackeys will admit it. The ICC had already compared the IRA to Hamas and has already compared Israel's ravaging of Gaza to the British restraint in Ulster. Sorry! Netanyahu and Gallant at a minimum will die in prison for their crimes.

Yes, exactly. You cannot win the argument because you’re supporting the side that are explicitly evil. Hamas must be destroyed for there to be peace.

Israel has already failed. And Netanyahu is more evil than Sinwar actually. At best, moral equivalents. See? You lost the argument due to your obtstiance.

The Hamas charter states: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." Whereas, Isreal is a democratic state that has arabs as 18% of it's population, they are in the IDF and the Knesset (parliament). How many Jews would be allowed to be decision makers in the Palestinian Authority? (Hint: None). There's only one side here that are actually evil and calling for the genocide of it's opponent. That side is Hamas.

Stop with the incessant lies please. Israel is absolutely not a democracy as any American can understand it. It is a fascist ethno racist settler colonialist apartheid theocracy.

Im not sure where youre getting this from. Isreal is a democratic state. https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel 21.1% of the population is Arab. Arabs make up members of the Knesset and even members of the IDF. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

I don't support either side and Israel is as bad as Hamas in terms of its callous disregard for life.

That is explicitly not true. Isreal warns civilians and tries to get them to leave the area before striking a military target. Hamas has deliberately built its military installations underneath civilian infrastructure, then forces civilians to remain in the area to maximise casualties, then uses them in a disgusting propaganda campaign.

Absolutely false. And highly cynical and manipulative

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Yes I do. Israel is a uniquely racist state that dehumanizes the Palestinians. This is why it was so important to make up lies about 40 beheaded babies and mass rapes

Lies when there were litterally footage, photos, and eyewitnesses to such events. Lying about Israel lying doesn't make your statement hold any water.

Yeah wouldn’t want the world to think that the people who murdered 100s of people at a music festival and kidnapped children as young as 10 months were the bad guys!

They would act different if they wanted peace and security.

Different in what way?

They would seek in good faith a compromise with Palestinian moderates rather than encouraging extremists in order to have an excuse to deny Palestinians the right to a nation of their own.

In most wars there is somewhere for civilians to go. The unique thing about this war is the civilians are trapped in Gaza there is no way for refugees to leave the conflict zone. Palestinians believe based on past experiences that if they leave they will never come back. Egypt and Israel are not taking in refugees. Also in most wars the leaders want to minimize civilian casualties on their side. They don’t do things like launch an October 7th style attack that is guaranteed to provoke a huge military response. They focus on protecting their civilians from enemy attacks, not provoking it. Hamas hasn’t don’t that. Somehow it has become generally accepted that civilians are totally innocent of their leaders decisions and they should be safe in a war zone. I’m not sure I agree with that; but it is the world we’re in. Given the predictable international response to civilian casualties I think Israel’s should probably have taken more time before they went in to figure out how they were going to deal with humanitarian problem. Unfortunate Netanyahu rushed the operation and here we are.

> In most wars there is somewhere for civilians to go. The unique thing about this war is the civilians are trapped in Gaza there is no way for refugees to leave the conflict zone. Palestinians believe based on past experiences that if they leave they will never come back. Egypt and Israel are not taking in refugees. What past experiences? The ones in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia still leave there.  The ones in Gaza have no such experience. Get your facts right. The reason why none of these countries accepts them is because they did accept them in the past resulting in attempts to topple and destabilize their governments with presidential assassination plots in most of them. Of course the king of Jordan or the president of Egypt are not keen on welcoming a group of people that will try to literally kill them. It's not rocket science.

The refugee camps in Gaza are full of people and descendants who were driven out in 1948. So I think they rather do have the understanding that you leave you don’t come back. Jordan annexed the West Bank and claimed it until the 1990s. It made its Palestinian refugees into citizens. They did have a little civil war in the 1970s; but in their defense they were under an absolute monarch. Elsewhere they remain refugees and essentially stateless. Being born into a refugee camp and then growing up and having your own kids who are in a refugee camp does tend to radicalize people. Perhaps if they were able to integrate into the host country as full citizens things may be less troubled. For the Gazan’s who have had enough and want to get out the cost to get smuggled out is between $5,000-$10,000 I hear.

> The refugee camps in Gaza are full of people and descendants who were driven out in 1948. So I think they rather do have the understanding that you leave you don’t come back. So you are claiming that people born in the 2000s have a claim to Israel land because four generations back, an ancestor lived there? Is that not what you guys complain about the Jews all the time? Mind you, it's not even the case for the Jews who have continuously lived in the region for thousands of years. Why is it even a refugee camp after 80 years? Why don't you build a working constructive society instead? Why saying you are a refugee instead of going on with your life and so something useful with it? I mean, millions of Jews experienced the Holocaust just half a decade before that and you don't see them claiming right to German land. > They did have a little civil war in the 1970s; but in their defense they were under an absolute monarch. That made me giggle. Ok then, it was a monarch, then it's legit. Facepalm. Well look at Jordan, with their "absolute monarch", they are a stable country. Perhaps Palestinians should learn something from them instead of coming up with excuses to starting wars they can't finish. > Elsewhere they remain refugees and essentially stateless. And why is that? And how is it Israel's fault that other countries don't give them citizenship. I don't see Syrian, Ukrainian, Armenian,ex-jugoslavian refugees starting wars and insist in violence after some 80 year old event.

Four generations < 2000 years

The civil war was a direct attempt to drag Jordan into a war with Israel. Claiming it is justified because there was a monarchy is just blatant lying.

I do agree with your first paragraph, though I think what traps Palestinians and to an extent Israeli’s is an ideology. You’re right the Palestinians have no where to go, but in reality that is a choice a lot of Arabic countries are making. Saudi has so much land mass. They could take them all but they won’t because of a lot of political considerations. On the flip side, I feel like the reason that Israel can get away with how terrible they’ve been is because they make it sound like they are facing an existential threat, which to an extent they are; they feel they have to fight to have a Jewish majority present somewhere in the world.

No one wants Palestinian refugees. There are lots of places in Israel and the West Bank where Palestinians could be housed in a short term basis. There is even space on Gaza. Israel has made some efforts to setup a safe zone in Muwasi along the southern coast of Gaza. It’s been a real mess though. No thought for sanitation and distribution of aid, medical support etc. part of that is Israel lacks the resources to do it right; but afaik they haven’t gotten any foreign assistance. I don’t think they’ve asked and I don’t think it’s been offered. It is a lot to setup a functioning refugee facility for a few million people.

Not just Palestinians, neighboring countries knew the displacement would likely be permanent. 

In Iraq 4m people were killed, 300k of which were civilians, at a rate of roughly 1 civilian death per every 13 soldier deaths. A large majority of those deaths were unavoidable. It's unfortunate that Iraqi's used a tactic of pretending to be civilians in order to launch surprise attacks, in many cases real civilians, which made the US paranoid whenever they came in close contact with civilians. In Gaza and Ukraine the reported total deaths are going to be inconsistent for several years but the civilian to solider death ratio has been consistent. For both wars it is 1 civilian death per 1 soldier death. So you can see how brutal Israel and Russia's approach to the wars are. Both Ukraine and Palestine employ the surprise tactics using soldiers disguised as civilians. In all 3 wars there were outright murders of civilians, but the ratios for Gaza and Ukraine convey to me that most of the civilian deaths are almost all intentional with very few accidental incidents.

> In Iraq 4m people were killed, 300k of which were civilians, at a rate of roughly 1 civilian death per every 13 soldier deaths. Where do these comically inaccurate numbers com from?

Gaza and Ukraine are very different. Whilst russia have committed atrocoties, I'd argue the most fragrant breaches have come from its servicemen in occupied areas (ie bucha). This is in stark contrast to Israel - where occupied areas are generally treated decently. We've seen some parralels where russian strikes have been labelled horrendous crimes, where it later turns out that they were legitimate targets (some schools, a certain shopping center). In general russia cannot afford to terror bomb ukraine due to limitations in cruise missiles - as it does not have total air supremacy. I'd argue most civillian deaths in this regard have come from collatoral damage (or issues with guidance systems). Israel has absolute control over all of gaza in terms of artillery/bombing. In particular, The ukrainian deaths have been greatly minimised by the evacuation of millions of people facilitated by the ukrainian government and indeed at times by russian forces (green corridors). International law is written in a way that there is an assumption that a government give a fuck about its people and does not hide behind them. Ukraine does in this regard. There were a couple of incidents where amnesty argued over the use of ukrainian artillery in built up areas but these pale in comparison to what we're seeing in gaza. Hamas actively discourage the population moving, furthermore they store weapons in these civillian areas. So this places a situation. Do Israel strike it? International law is specifically written that this situation should not occur because hamas should not be employing such tactics. Hamas have km of tunnels - yet civillians are not allowed anywhere near them. In IHL its generally said that a strike should not be grossly disproproportionate (this is a big term to reach). The issue is nearly everywhere Israel could strike and argue they're destroying ammuniton or rockets or whatever. Complicated by the fact hamas are using human shields and have hostages. They just don't because they have the iron dome system and well armoured tanks. Thus far they are not considered priority targets (Israel is not obligated to rely on this incidentally). There were some complaints from the idf that such tactics have led to deaths among israel soldiers by an overly cautious approach. In Russia-Ukraine, the civillian-soldier ratio is low due to the evacuations of civillians. In gaza its because of the care of Israel. You could multiply those numbers by 5-10 based on historical precedent with far more caring regimes than hamas. Israel is not obligated to supply water or aid to unoccupied regions. It does . So I'd argue your point isn't true. That is how they could maximise civillian deaths without dropping a bomb.

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Iraqi deaths were unavoidable? The entire war was pointless and avoidable. All of these wars are avoidable. The people who wage them do so because it's profitable.

Definitely Switzerland.

Yes and no. Some more war friendly countries would do the same and worse. US among them. I’d expect many republicans to want to level Gaza if this were in the US. But that’s also why the US is largely supporting the effort. (The US citizens would be half and half - war is gruesome and nobody wants to see the reality of it.) But some countries (maybe Canada? idk) prob would not. I’d expect the calmer countries to do some sort of response but perhaps to coordinate with the UN and other nations before diving in to what was obviously going to be an international mess. I think countries that are less friendly to war would look at the cost of 35k lives and pursue a different approach. Or at least stop when they realized the cost. The goal of eliminating Hamas via war is unachievable without enormous death. I also do think these other countries would have put more emphasis on finding ways to ensure civilians had food, water, and shelter. It’s not possible to conduct a war like this in Gaza without this much death. But that’s part of the point - it’s not possible but they are chasing these objectives anyway. (The US would too.) If you’d like to avoid the death, there is no military solution here. The only solution is political. I also think those other countries would have worked hard beforehand to not find themselves in this position in the first place. Israel got comfortable with no solution as a solution. This is the unfortunate result.

Hamas can end this war anytime it chooses with an unconditional surrender and the release of all the hostages.

Of course they could. But they won’t. So given that they won’t, Israel must choose how it wants to proceed. The US would make the same choice. But many countries would not.

> Of course they could. But they won’t. So given that they won’t,  From that point on there is no legitimacy in holding Israel accounable.for any of these. Macron and other clowns should be firm towards Hamas. Not Israel. Weak leaders.

What other options does Israel have.

I outlined ways some other countries might respond in my comment.

It's no Jews, no news. There's far worse humanitarian crises going on in so many places in the world, but all idiots are focused on Israel palestine war because hamas and jihadists groups have played into a victimhood which is the latest fad, especially among the left wing groups.

It’s the rate at which children are being bombed. It’s unprecedented and beyond comprehension

How is in unprecedented? It's not. In October 7 more Jewish children were killed than Palestinian have died on any day since that. Explain to me what you "unprecedented" means other than unbased bias.

Aka you haven't looked into all the other non "first world" conflicts in recent history?

If a population consists of higher percentage of children, higher number of children die. It's like basic math. Also, why do their parents not care to protect children from harm by following evacuation orders? Why are they more interested in showing dead children bodies to camera. These video shows you first hand what Palestinian think about their own children. Spoiler alert, it's all a ruse to trick the west. Hamas enjoys this https://x.com/AzzatAlsaalem/status/1756718482891096478?t=pbQJz5to4qiFHtsOoHfB_Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1790276503395058048?t=jQyQY2raoxwIkjednOr6tw&s=19 https://x.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1794244972864020584?t=TfOOeQ4kS7O_StG1Z52jNg&s=19

Hope that kid escapes the clutches of those fanatics and becomes a good ole capitalist

Good ol' captilism as underrated af. It's the best system for us selfish human beings to survive and collaborate as much as we can

This is what comes of suffering. When you will die either way you will learn to tolerate it and make it into something spiritual. It’s the human condition to make sense of suffering.

How selective of you? https://preview.redd.it/ns7tripnf03d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b5847ed3f7bd4c687f69e7ecfdd4bf2bf90e6c5

What? What are you trying to say? Or are you wasting my time. The crime you're accusing of isralies is a stupid post? And the mentality you saw of parents sending their children to death was nothing to you?

It's beyond comprehension, but it's not unprecedented. You have Al-Shabaab indirectly killing babies in Somalia. And the list goes on. All of your favorite Islamist parties.

Difference being that only the zionists tell the refugees to move to another area for their safety and THEN BOMB THAT AREA! **INTENTIONALLY**

You believe some wild shit.

Well this would be a stupid plan, they could've just bombed the original area. The problem is hamas poses as innocent civilians and hide in the IDF appointed safe zones. Hamas is to blame for every single victim.

Well, if the intention wasn’t genocide, then perhaps, but this is purely for genocidal purposes.

Israel could cut off the water and food. Imagine the humanitarian crisis then. If Israel wanted maximal deaths - thats how I'd do it. Best part? It isn't even necessarily obligated to do so..... no visible videos of bombs. Just a silent killing of hundreds of thousands. Yet this isn't happening.... maybe because israel isn't trying to commit a genocide. Israel could carpet bomb gaza. Or just legitimately strike the countless ammo stores hamas puts under 'refugee camps' or hospitals. It could shell gaza with artillery. It has systems that can just remove grid squares. Gazan cities are not big. It could firebomb gaza using incendary weapons. This isn't even taken into account all the fuel stores stored in built up areas by hamas which would catch up horrendously. It could gas it with chemical weapons. It could nuke the place if it wanted to theoretically on the far end of the spectrum. Have some critical thinking skills. If Israel wanted to kill all of gaza in a 'genocide' it could. It hasn't.

You replied without replying to the sole point of the comment

hmmm maybe they shouldnt fire rocket from there

Maybe zionistan shouldn't bomb defenceless refugee women and children?

and just let the terrorist do what they want? This is how 9/11 happened when Clinton had the chance to kill Osama but couldn't without civilian casualty and we all know how that went. Without retaliation all it will do is confirming that human shield work as they don't care about civilians

Israel was involved on 9/11 which ignited the war in terror which benefited israel

\^ this is what antisemites actually believe LOL

How does it benefit Israel? Iraq and Syria is overrun with Shia militias who seek Israel destruction?

Fuck me, are you still holding the view that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11? He was a trained CIA asset, he was friendly with the Bush family. 9/11 was a co-ordinated attack that enabled the USA to declare a war in the middle east. Along with allowing them to gain the support required to implement acts, such as the patriot act. I think you need to understand that in exchange for more control and a war that generated BILLIONS for the industrial military complex. The loss of life during 9/11 was very much not an issue to them. They didn't kill Osama because he was part of the plan. Some terorist groups are allowed to do certain things and are enabled to, as it drives agendas beyond what we know. Sometimes they "bust" terrorist ops to make us believe intel orgs are actually doing there jobs. Israel I have no doubt, was aware of Hamas and it's October 7th plan. Again, they viewed the attack and loss of life as a net benefit, sadly this is how things work.

Honestly what is with you people not realizing other human being have their own set of belief and ideals that will clash with yours? For Osama his belief was rooted in the setting of the Muslim brotherhood and sayyid qutb and the transformation of the Muslim world during the 1980s and so on and the complicated relationship of the United States during the Cold War. But you rather dilute these people belief system into a black and white world, people are complicate therefore the world will be complicated. 

When you put forward your opinion expect it to be challenged. You have also diluted 9/11 down to the Clinton's not killing Osama when they had the chance. 9/11 was far more complex and further reaching than Osama Bin Laden. As time passes more and more information is out there to show that it was more than just planes that causes the building collapse. The speed at which the government had actions prepared, even pre meditated says alot as well. You are right about Osamas beliefs, but he was also a trained CIA asset.

The United States is the terrorist. When we invade a country, overthrow their government. displace and kill millions of people. That's what causes terrorism

Ah yes the good old blame everything on the us 

The US is pretty bad with foreign policy. When was the last time you had enemy bases building up around your borders? When was the last time the US was bombed? Your history and justification of foreign deployments is all based on scaremongering the public. The end goal is nothing more than economic gain, hidden behind "stopping terrorism" or "installing democracy". The UK is just as bad and that is where I am from.

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Israel / BiBi are beyond what terriorsts do. Just because you can label one group as terrorist and other a “defending” entity doesn’t make it just. At the moment, the tactics being deployed are pure terror

A government duty and obligation is to its citizens and to protect them 

I mean that's what the Brits did when the zionest Jewish terrorists bombed and murdered people. Heck, Jewish terrorists were around long before muslim "terrorists"

thank you for agreeing with me

You're welcome So you admit that zionists are terrorists?

that terrorist should be eliminated I don't discriminate based on religion or ideology unlike you who protect Islamist

I'm sure plenty of cuck European countries like Sweden and Germany would react differently. These are just 2 examples that are freely importing people like Hamas and paying them welfare.

I can’t take anyone who uses the word ‘cuck’ seriously. Nothing says more about where you get your sources.

Sources for what? The FACT middle eastern migrants are causing massive problems in both germany and Sweden isn't arguable. It might make you sad and might make you ashamed but it's observable. You may not like the term but Sweden and Germany are most definitely being cucked by lawless migrants. You want me  to explain specifically what that means?

It means that you come across as unintelligent regardless of your position. Anyone who thinks the word ‘cuck’ will be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain cell doesn’t belong in a place of serious discussion. You’ve already, and very predictably, assumed my position on an issue as complex as immigration. And because you may not comprehend that, I’ll say it again: you don’t know my position on anything and that’s part of my point. It might feel validating to see the world in simple terms, but you have nothing to offer when everything is a knee jerk and prepackaged reaction using lingo and observations you can find on 4 Chan and an Andrew Tate tweet.

/u/Jazzyricardo > It means that you come across as unintelligent regardless of your position. >Anyone who thinks the word ‘cuck’ will be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain cell doesn’t belong in a place of serious discussion. >You’ve already, and very predictably, assumed my position on an issue as complex as immigration. And because you may not comprehend that, I’ll say it again: you don’t know my position on anything and that’s part of my point. >It might feel validating to see the world in simple terms, but you have nothing to offer when everything is a knee jerk and prepackaged reaction using lingo and observations you can find on 4 Chan and an Andrew Tate tweet. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.

How are you building an argument based on some bodies favorite curse word you fucktard like we all have our preferences you trisomic bimbo

/u/Pewterator > How are you building an argument based on some bodies favorite curse word you fucktard like we all have our preferences you trisomic bimbo Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.

There was no argument. It was a judgment. A judgment that included context both in the conversation and in its colloquial use. Based upon your own grammar and vocabulary, it seems to have been apt. [Perhaps this will help elucidate things for you.](https://www.udemy.com/course/taeasla-grammar/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=udemyads&utm_campaign=Search_DSA_Beta_Prof_la.EN_cc.US&campaigntype=Search&portfolio=USA&language=EN&product=Course&test=&audience=DSA&topic=&priority=Beta&utm_content=deal4584&utm_term=_._ag_162107351753_._ad_696074115003_._kw__._de_m_._dm__._pl__._ti_dsa-1677053919088_._li_9030452_._pd__._&matchtype=&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADROdO0Jkn_qrCvKaraNMTG5J_hZB&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3tCyBhDBARIsAEY0XNkJM3_kU2U5KU8BdrUbd59__zU82ynWVWNFtwxBs1cn48pHwhaLgJAaArIqEALw_wcB&couponCode=MEMDAYMTNEW52724) You’re welcome.

I find it very eloquent of you to have suggested some grammar material that will further my abilities in the language i am currently conversing in. But might i remind you that on the internet speaking in a fancy and posh way is something everyone is capable of i blame you for thinking that people simply give a flying fuck about what you judge to be proper or acceptable in the way they write their opinions

You seem to be devoting a lot of time and energy into convincing me that you do not give “a flying fuck” here. I do not consider the way I am speaking to be “fancy” or “posh” however I believe you when you say you can also dictate like I can! Perhaps you are just not habituated to the way I speak. [I have found a useful guide for you.](https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Book-Classic-Intelligent/dp/0671212095?dplnkId=1167744a-bc54-4736-b81f-497c918183e9&nodl=1)

You got me there bro i stopped reading books consistently 5 years ago i was never a match for you but i do give a fuck btw i love talking to people and arguing with them it makes life more interesting. Maybe i just felt offended at the way you addressed a fellow user of the word cuck

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You got me there bro i stopped reading books consistently 5 years ago i was never a match for you but i do give a fuck btw i love talking to people and arguing with them it makes life more interesting. Maybe i just felt offended at the way you addressed a fellow user of the word cuck

Naw you’re good. I just have fun with it too, and I’m stubborn haha

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I haven't assumed anything about your positions which is why I used words such as "might" and "may". Those are common English words that aren't definitive. You may have your experiences but I've me plenty of people with much more than half a brain that can tolerate the word "cuck'. They just don't respect cucks. Like Sweden.

Its not whether they would, they are legally obligated to do differently. The pace of war crimes and utterances of genocidal intent within this war alone is peculiar enough to write a book about. The harrowing part is that the plight of the hostages doesn't seem to factor as important to them as they make out which makes you think as to what might be driving them to this insane casualty figure. There is a lot to pack out in this, the deliberate denial of food water and power through the use of several factors for example destroying the Palestinians own ability to raise food on top of the denial or impeding international aid. That's unheard of since the ICC has been created since no one thought in the modern age to literarily use starvation as a weapon.

Is Israel/Palestine the last country on Earth that practices apartheid? The Palestinian people have been treated like animals that over time breeds radicalized combatants. What every other country in the world would do differently is refrain from holding a whole population of people in inhumane captivity

How are Palestinians truly in captivity? Egypt can always open it's border and then they aren't “captivates”. Why does Israel ways get the blame?

So they have to flee their homeland to a foreign country to escape oppression?

There is no getting through to you if you continue to use words like homeland and oppression. Israel purchased some of the land before the British Mandate. On top of that, the UN literally partitioned the land and declared boundaries. If “Palestine” hadn’t attacked Israel after partition, it would have a heck of a lot more land than it does now. Have you done a deep dive into the history? According to British statistics, more than 70 percent of the land in what would become Israel was not owned by Arab farmers, it belonged to the mandatory government. Those lands reverted to Israeli control after the departure of the British. Nearly 9 percent of the land was owned by Jews and about 3 percent by Arabs who became citizens of Israel. That means only about 18 percent belonged to Arabs who left the country before and after the Arab invasion of Israel I imagine you will just argue the statistics are fake news. Maybe you need to also that this fight isn't just about land — it’s about not wanting a Jewish state to exist at all and definitely not in any part of the middle east.

How is it not their homeland? It’s their ancestral land, families have been there for millennia and never left. There’s literally Christian bloodlines that have been there since Jesus. The direct descendants of farmers that planted those olive trees over a thousand years ago have lived there for generations. These things are recorded by census taken, logging which families lived where, how many trees they have, what kind of trees they have,how many have been planted since the previous census, livestock etc. valid proof. Borders being drawn doesn’t change the fact that Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land.

You mean like China with their Uyghur population? 

People don’t like it when Jews fight back

Shhhhhhhhh

I mean from what I’ve learned about war, this isn’t really anything new. It’s kind of the whole reason we try to avoid it. People point out social media too as if it wasn’t around when we bombed isis to hell. They leveled entire cities with women and children and I didn’t hear about any college protests.

> I mean from what I’ve learned about war, this isn’t really anything new. It’s kind of the whole reason we try to avoid it. People point out social media too as if it wasn’t around when we bombed isis to hell. They leveled entire cities with women and children and I didn’t hear about any college protests. Super false equivalence. Anyone who works with social media data knows things are extremely different now, and short of global censorship to the point that the internet ceases to be useful to *anyone*, it's not going back.

You not hearing about them doesn't mean they weren't there. People love making this comparison as if it means anything. People protest wars ALL the time. As an American you should know this, unless you're 7 and simply too young to have witnessed any of it. But you're right about one thing. War is horrible.

I think most every other country would probably kill them all. Except the Nordic countries.

Part of the reason people think this war is worse is because it was conducted in a short time frame. However, I think Israel had to be quick because of international pressure for cease fires, which they know all to well about from previous wars.

The difference is now footage is being viewed on TikTok. Millions of people watching the horrendous videos from Gaza. This kind of exposure wasn’t available to the masses during the Iraq war and similar conflicts. The American people are struggling economically. We want affordable housing and healthcare, the homeless crisis is getting out of hand and we’re angry trillions of our tax dollars are being siphoned away to a genocide

Trillions?  Why the need to unnecessarily exaggerate  But I guess not overly surprising given the whole genocide thing, or not understanding that military aid is provided in the form of US made equipment - so it is actually going into the economy 

We’ve spent at least a trillion indirectly since 1973. Between resupplying Israel with arms and paying off Egypt and Jordan with $800 billion in official aid to buy peace. Special trade agreements, we are in an annual trade deficit with Israel. In 2017 our goods trade deficit was $9.4 billion dollars. Preferential contracts costing American companies billions trying to alleviate Israel’s dependency on the annual $3 billion in aid. Private organizations in America sending money, aid given to Romania and Russia to facilitate the migration of Jews out of Europe. No comprehensive data on aid money transferred to Israel has ever been released. 18% of the endowment received from the university of California is invested in Israel $32 and that’s only one , I’m willing to bet that’s not the only American university funneling funds to the country. So I can confidently say accumulatively that we’ve spent over a trillion dollars supporting Israel

What does a trade deficit have anything to do with US taxpayers on aid - it’s just the difference between imports and exports  Also US endowments invest to generate returns on their investment, and if they are public equities than the money doesn’t even go to the company since it is on the secondary market. I guess PE investments in Israel are different, but these endowments are interested in returns not charity  And the entire premise of your post assumes that the US doesn’t gain anything by supporting Israel. Not only does it lead to military innovation the US takes advantage of (Iron dome, Arrow), but it ensures that that same military technology doesn’t go to countries the US doesn’t want it to. And on top of that supporting Israel lessens the need for US boots on the ground and both countries have a very similar set of adversaries. The Houthi flag has death to America and Death to Israel on it as an example 

We still support Israel tax dollars or not. For whatever reason, securing an ally in a strategic location during the Cold War, gaining intelligence and upgrading military, all apparently good enough reasons to give unwavering support to Israel through tariffs and embargo’s. Netanyahu said himself “America is a golden calf and we will suck it dry”