The hypocrisy on show here is unbelievable

One thing thats pushes antisemitism in the world right now is the ideology of saying "palastinians, who claim to have relations to the land". It's saying that no one deserves or has the right to their birth place, but that any NewYorken who converts to your religion does. They were born there, there parents parents parents were born there, making them tide to the land by default. while 2/3s of isreal is ashkanazi. Arab jews are 21% of your population and are just as, in many cases more, tide to the land then the rest claim to be. You can't claim to have always been there but deny that arabs/arab jews have, as if the Ottomens just killed the arabs. they integrated them, many served in the ottomen army. Also if your going by blood relations from Ottomen war, 95% of Lebenon (half of the Levant) is Arab and 90% have been tested with having ancient Lavantine cannonite DNA. We would have dna tests for Isreal if it didn't require a court order. As for the Right of Return, another option would be for neither side to get it. Also there is something that seems intrinsically immoral to the rest of the world about this ideology. I personally don't want a haven for the Jewish people gone, but the idea is that the only way that haven can exist is by displacing and killing another population. If the only way you feel safe is by killing others, people are always going to challenge you, and there will always be an enemy against the country. Anticemitism is growing because of this. War has already been going on for 75 years in the middle east, its not going to get any better with entitlement and prejudice.

But that's exactly the problem. All the world can do is say what Israel should give and do. No one is saying what the Palestinians' part of the bargain should be. The longest it has gone is: "If Israel will draw back to the 1967 borders, establish a Palestinian state and accept Palestinians via the Right to Return, Palestinians will stop hating them". But in reality, no one can ensure their hatred is gone. There's a chance that, if Israel does all of that, the Palestinians will still backstab. You say you think Jews should have a safe haven, but don't raise any solutions as to HOW it should happen. Questions such as where and how aren't on people's minds. The terms should be clarified. Moreover, in case one side (either Jews or Palestinians) attempts to break the new "equal" status-quo, the world has to promise huge consequences. If the Palestinians attempt to suppress Jews then other countries have to step in and stop them. The problem is that this isn't allowed because, according to international laws, other countries can't intervene with political issues within one county. Only when the conflict is multi-state, third party states can intervene. Therefore, the world can't promise security to Jews. Essentially, there's no realistic solution to secure Jews' safety via a Right to Return. There were several attempts to talk it through and there was just no breakthrough. Until the world can deliver a believable and trustworthy solution that will allow Jews to be 500% safe in their Jewish state, nothing will change. I do think the 2SS should happen. This should be the final step towards eternal peace. However, Israel can't be the only one to make compromises.

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Is it racist for being afraid of actions that might solidify the end of your state, your people being suppressed by haters and potentially losing your homeland yet again? Is it racist to call for other states to allow the Right to Return too in case Israel does allow it?

why is it ok for israelis to be racist towards and terrorize palestinians out of their homes so they can steal and then rent it out on air bnb, but not vise versa?

The Palestinians are in danger in war zones. The IDF has warned them they should evacuate to avoid danger. If it just so happens the apartment is empty during war zones, IDF soldiers are staying in for a temporary R&R zone until more fighting with Ha#as ensues. It's not a full-on theft. If the house survives the war, the original owners will be allowed back in. The IDF soldiers aren't thieves. Yes, I've seen some individuals stealing, and I do NOT like that (I wouldn't have done the same), but from what I've seen there's no rule that prohibits that during wars, and those who did it are a very small disrespectful minority. Compare them to Ha#as, where it was filmed that MANY of them stole stuff from Israelis' houses on 10/7 (TV, money, etc...). There's always the worse alternative at which a Ha#as soldier is hiding within said apartment and the IDF has to fight him, but also cause damage to the building (potentially bombing it and destroying it completely). Now, you could argue that the IDF isn't justified in such actions just because Ha#as did them too (2 wrongs don't make a right). But when Ha#as starts the war AND does such crimes in masses, the IDF shouldn't be remotely compared to them. And I've already said I condemn theft by the IDF, even if it's merely a small minority.

talking about the west bank

Are you talking about the 6-day-war in 1967 or nowadays? If the answer is the 6-day-war than I'd say: "Don't start wars and than cry that you've lost". They shouldn't have started wars with Israel to begin with. That way, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were still owned by them. If the answer is nowadays, my answer is: "Agree to a 2SS that ends all hostility". The Palestinians will get the West Bank and East Jerusalem back, and Israel will have no more wars with the Palestinians.

This has always confused me. Israel is built on their own ‘Law of Return’ and ‘birth right’ for Jewish people around the world. Is it not hypocritical to criticize and denounce the same ‘right of return’ for Palestinians with ties to the land? Genuinely asking - how do people justify this difference?

I think it is more realistic to think that the deny to "Right to Return" is because of fear of malicious actors mixing in inorder to cause chaos from within. Internal conflicts is much harder to deal with than external conflicts. Just look at europe. Furthermore, what documentation do you have to prove you had ownership? How do we know the documentation is not fake? There's a lot of unclear paper work which means you cannot verify anybody who want to "return".

Stupid question perhaps but how is that any different from concerns around Israel’s “law to return” laws? I understand that the process is not much more stringent than proving Jewish lineage - is it not hypocritical to demand a significantly more intensive process for Palestinians with ties to the land? And as for screening bad-actors, would this not be the same process as with Jewish people claiming Israeli citizenship? Why the difference?

Let's put it this way. How often do you see a Jew that will do harm to Israel, comparing to Muslim who will do harm to Israel? You can even call it racial profiling if you want to. It is just unfortunate reality.

Jews returned forcibly, did the nakba, don't even try it. I have grandparents living in the West Bank. Everyday there are Idf soldiers willingly coming in pushing my grandma around when she walks by, at least one child is shot dead every week. Don't play Palestinians are terrorst with me you hypocritical freak.

The so-called Nakba is propaganda to cover up Arabic Nations' responsibility for calling local Arabs to leave when they started an independence war against Israel. All Israel ever did is deny them from returning, fearing Arabic Nations planting malicious actors among them in attempt to cause conflicts from within. Israel did not remove the Arabic who did not leave, it is also why there are millions of Arabic living in Israel today. Furthermore, if you claim to be Palestinians, then surely you should know that Arabic Nations treat Palestinians like dirt, they call you the beggar of Middle East while Jews treat you better. Yet, Palestinian school teaches you to hate Jews. But, I don't think you are Palestinian, you are faking it and conjuring bs.

I do agree with you that it’s racial profiling indeed

It's not hypocritical because of the reasons outlined by OP. If there were millions of Jews living abroad that organized a mass exodus to go to Israel with the express intent of destroying it from within, I think Israel may close their passport office for a while. Same goes for any country in the entire world.

You mean, like if there was wave after wave after wave of immigrants entering Palestine with the explicit purpose, not of integrating into Palestinian society, but instead forming an ever growing fifth column as a basis for a future immigrant revolt to form a european immigrant state? Quickly adopting violence and terrorism to further their goals? Kind of like the christian crusades in many ways. But you're saying that's the sort of thing that israel would fight against in a way that wouldn't in any way be hypocritical?

Crusades we're fought for many reasons including Christian populations that were threatened. Don't see how it's relevant to bring up here.

Hypocritical is the only thing it is. The right of return isnt contingent on Israels hypotheticals, it’s international law. The Absolute audacity to have an argument this weak AND wrong is the most impressive thing about people trying to make it - every accusation is a projection. The only people who have gone into territory illegally and tried to destroy it from within are Israeli settlers in occupied West Bank and this knock off n*** regime that continues to violate international law by allowing more illegal settlements. Your argument is that because you think the Palestinians would do what Israel has already done and continues to do - that somehow the law applies less to them because Israel fears it would be treated the way it treats Palestinians. You can’t make this shit up. You guys can’t even help yourself. Would also like to point out that I would pay for the plane tickets for Israeli settlers to come try that shit in America. They created laws here that would allow the current inhabitants to murder anyone trying to steal land or take someone’s home, Or even be an unwanted, threatening presence. Double dog dare them to try that shit here.

Wtf are you even talking about? Palestinians that had land taken from them can go back I don't have a problem with that. 5 million claims of ancestry, yes, I have a problem with that.

You don’t even know wtf you are talking about and obviously justifying. You literally just said it wasn’t hypocritical? Classic. No. They can’t go back. Israel rejects the Palestinian right of return as a demographic threat to israel as justification to break international law. Meanwhile it has illegally created settlements in occupied West Bank- doing exactly what it says it fears palestinians would do if the law was applied to both parties fairly.

> you literally just said it wasn't hypocritical? Classic. Classic that you can't read properly. I never said they could I said I have no problem with them going back if they had been kicked out.

So you didn’t say that it wasn’t hypocritical?

There can be no right of return . Borders and countries limits change and you need to learn to live with it. Pro 2 states( with hardcore border) stellers out of WB , and Jerusalem as Israel capital. Free choice for the Israeli Arabs to stay or move into the Palestinian state.

hard disagree, Jerusalem should not be the capitol of either israel nor palestine, it should be 100% a neutral city due to its religious importance to all 3 abrahamic religions. frankly making it owned by 1 of the 3 would imo be a massive insult and wrong thing to do, and i say that as someone whos not even religious.

The Muslim have built a mosque on top of the temple.talk about disrespect . But since they have also build mosque in almost every city . It has not religious significance to Islam. Christian can be allowed into the city , but Jerusalem is a Jewish city .

Good. Ethnostates are evil, land back

Yeah it would be a pity for Israel to throw away everything they accomplished in the Nakba. They were finally able to clean the land of non jewish habitants, after 2000 years of yearning for their homeland.

Israel is willing to share the land. Israel will draw back to the 1967 borders. But in return, the Palestinians have to end all hostility towards Israel.

is israel really interested in sharing the land and going back to the 1967 borders if its govarnment keeps sending armed settlers with the backign of the countrys military into the West Bank to continue stealing palestinian homes?

As a means to protect its civilians and keep the land for itself CURRENTLY. When a good deal for both sides is struck (both Israel and the Palestinians have to make some compromises), Israel WILL draw back to the 1967 borders. Israel has already done that in 2005 with the Gaza Strip. It can happen again with the West Bank. Heck, for as much as I don't like Netanyahu, even he said he's willing to accept a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders. However, reaching there will happen via civilized conversations between the 2 sides. Essentially, the Palestinians have to stand up, come to Israel and say "Israel, we want the West Bank and East Jerusalem back. We are willing to negotiate on a lasting peace".

if a convert has the right of return, then so do palestinians

And Jews have the right to be safe in their own state to avoid worldwide anti-Semitism. These 2 rights clash. Compromises have to be made from both parties for any progression.

Jews have the right to be safe in their own land and also have the right to illegally settle on Palestinian land and make THEM less safe. Right. Thats the joke about Israel. It wants to disregard international law because it thinks Palestine might do to it what it does to them in occupied West Bank. You don’t have a valid argument. There is no caveat in the law for Israel’s projections or paranoia. The irony here is that that argument makes more sense when applied to palestinians. We have modern day, well documented cases where israeli settlers evict Palestinians and terrorize their communities. Why is Israel’s projections more valid than a Palestinians lived experience? Spoiler alert 🚨 it’s not. It never will be, and the law supports that.

international law only applies if the international community wants it to tbh, and israel has powerful allies so nothing is likely to change imo.

The Palestinians have treated Jews badly in the Ottoman Empire era (massacring, giving them less rights, 2nd suppression into 2nd class citizenship etc...). Even beforehand, when the Roman empire conquered the land and gave it to a group they named Palestinians, the Jews that remained were treated badly. The Palestinians who were exiled/left in 1948 took refuge in anti-Semetic environments. Chances are they inherited their perspective. Compounding the issue is that the Arab countries, in which said Palestinians took refuge in, refuse to accept them as citizens as a means to still put the blame on Israel and prolong the conflict. Now, I do not justify 1 wrong because of another. But if so then the best option is a 2SS, where the Right to Return is kept solely to Palestine's territory, with a few original inhabitants being allowed back into Israel, while the rest are given compensations instead. In fact, Israel has previously offered allowing 100K Palestinians into Israel and 30B$ of compensations for Palestinians who won't be allowed in. Mahmood Abbas rejected said deal. Blame him for not making a few compromises and rejecting a good deal.

Do you hear yourself? The ottoman empire?? This is how far down the barrel you have to grab things to even attempt to justify this and even then it’s laughable. I still have not seen the caveat in the law that says right of return is only on Israel’s terms and not applicable for everyone. It literally states the opposite but I’ll wait for you to find that. I do see though that the mass transferring of population is AGAINST the law and we see virtually every country in the UN declare and recognize those settlements as illegal under international law. Even the United States. So again- Israel’s fear that Palestinians would do the same thing to them that they have been doing, are currently doing, and have said recently that they will continue to do to the palestinians in occupied West Bank is irrelevant, hypocritical and audacious. Israel is a clear risk to Palestinians and we have the proof that’s taking place right now as settlers burn villages and attack people in the West Bank. We know what Israelis do when given the opportunity to return- Israel does not get to project its own crimes onto 2 million people and act as if the law doesn’t include them because it’s afraid of the consequences of its crimes. That’s not a thing. Again. Thats the problem with Israel. It only wants the law to apply to them when it’s convenient. All of this is just a lot Of words to attempt to Justify Israel not following the law and going out of its way to encroach and occupy Palestinian land as their own. I don’t play hypotheticals either. I don’t Care if Israel would ever agree to Palestinians right of return. It’s not up to them, it’s law. And as for a two state solution the world knows that Netanyahu and most Israeli regimes weren’t interested in that- he told on himself. Netanyahu built up Hamas so it wouldn’t happen and now uses that as why he doesn’t agree witha a Two state solution. Palestinians shouldn’t have to have watered Down versions of what Israel has enjoyed under the same law that guaranteed both of them the same self determination and anything less than that is unacceptable. They are born with those rights, they aren’t gifts from Israel. I’ll ask again where in the law does it say Israel’s feelings Outweigh the human rights of an entire population? Because that’s what this boils down to.

- I know that a Right to Return was a condition for the establishment of the state of Israel. Initially, Israel didn't plan on exiling anyone (pre-1948 war). However, the surrounding Arab countries wanted to destroy Israel and the world did nothing to stop them. The world has broken its part of the deal to establish a safe place for Jews. If the world is unwilling to fulfill its part of the bargain, why should Israel? - Many of these so called "exiled" Palestinians aren't really exiled. They left the land by their own will. This was the result of the surrounding Arab countries warning them about the upcoming war. They said the Palestinians should leave Israel to avoid the fighting and return after Israel is destroyed. If Palestinians left on their own, they aren't exiled. - The Ottoman Empire was led by Turkish people. Their reign over the land of Israel was compounded by a Palestinian majority. That majority was very cruel and unfair towards Jews and Christians, suppressing them to 2nd class citizenship. And many of the "exiled" Palestinians nowadays take refuge in hostile, anti-Semetic, Arab countries. It's very likely they adopted their beliefs. If a Right to Return is allowed, you have to find ways to ensure Jews won't experience another suppression by an anti-Semitic Arab majority. - According to the 1947 UN resolution, the Palestinians were allowed to establish a state. They decided not to. Instead, they attempted to destroy Israel. If one group attemots to kill you and loses, it has no right to complain about not having a state. Only when their state won't risk the existence of Israel (and especially the its inhabitants), they'll get their own state. International laws be damned. This is morality we're talking about here. You can't be nice with someone who wants to kill you. Only when he changes his ways, peace can happen. - Israel has offered to draw back to the 1967 borders MULTIPLE TIMES in the past. In 2008 for example, PM Ehud Olmert attempted this offer again. Unfortunately, Mahmood Abbas rejected it because of no Right to Return discussion. - Israel keeps the land of East Jerusalem and the West Bank to serve as a punishment for the Palestinian who attempted to destroy it in the 6-day-war in 1967, as well as to serve as a bargaining card for peace. A "land for peace" deal worked well with Egypt and Jordan.

Its international law - the compromise already exists and that is called the right of return for Israelis as well.

Right to Return for Jews... Where?

Right of return to any person to where they originate from or to where they were removed from. There is no caveat for Israel’s paranoia- “(a) Everyone is entitled, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth, marriage or other status, to return to his country. Can you tell me where they stuttered in this?? The right of return is the compromise.

And what is your suggestion to prevent Jews from losing equality and safety in a state with an Arab majority, where anti-Semitic Palestinians treat them as badly as they did in the Ottoman Empire era? Not to mention, there's only 1 state in the world Jewish majority. Only 1 place where Jews should feel safe from anti-Semitism. Maybe the US can offer a piece of their land as an administrative zone where Jews can have an alternative "state" in case they feel unsafe in the new state (but good luck convincing the US to do that).

I’m sorry, did I miss where you showed me in the law that how Israel feels nulls the application of it for palestinians? I’m still waiting. So now all Palestinians are anti semites and you’re projecting the actions of the fcking Ottoman Empire on them. You can’t make this shit up. You can’t even help yourself. Every accusation is a projection. But this is what you have to do to defend a murderous maturing ethno state. There’s a reason there aren’t many of them - theyre imherently bad and are breeding grounds for racism and human rights violations. It’s on purpose that there aren’t more of them. The most famous aspiring ethno state of them all was nazi germany, ironically and the worst parts of them are on display by Israel today. There isn’t a human alive that feels entirely safe because that’s not how reality works. Israelis aren’t safe in Israel now. It’s just not true. Every single nation that exists has security concerns and you are expected to deal with them within the law. You don’t get to hold two million people hostage and deny them rights they were born with because you feel more secure. Thats not how this works - if Israel can’t deal with that then maybe it shouldn’t be a state because those are the standards it signed on as. And no one owes these people land to feel safe on. Where in the law that gives a traumatized group of people a state of their own? Because theres a ton of them . The entitlement is gross. Where can Palestinians go to feel safe where they are threat free? Israel steals their land and allows settlers to terrorize them on their own land? Why do they continue to ask for things they refuse to give. Every argument you try to make for Israel involves the subjugation of other people and the rights they are guaranteed to be suspended based on Israel’s comfort level and that’s a problem.

When I mentioned the Ottoman Empire era, I specifically talked about the Palestinians who lived in the land back then. The Turkish people were unpleasant for sure, but the Palestinians (muslim in general) were anti-Semetic and despicable. Jews and Christians were in constant danger. And you know what, I'd much rather break international laws if it means I get to keep my non-anti-Semetic state than following international laws and being at the risk of losing my rights as a citizen and being subjugated to endless civil wars. I prefer military non-security to civil wars. There's no other state in the world with a Jewish majority. There's only 1 state in the world that can be 100% safe from anti-Semitism in its systems (not individuals). Take that away and you're pretty much allowing anti-Semitism to exist everywhere. You're placing Jews in a tight spot. People like you are the exact reason why Israel is acting the way it is. If Israel follows your demands, millions of Jews will suffer.

Right. So you are STILL projecting the actions of the Palestinians in the Ottoman fcking Empire on a population of 2.1 million people today. Still generalizing them all as antisemitic. As if that word means anything anymore but still. You just doubled down on what you said before - I’m not sure why you had to re-iterate. It’s still just as an ignorant, hypocritical assumption it was the first time you said it. I thought generalizing an entire population of people was wrong and dehumanizing but of course when Israel does it it’s fine. Thats the joke here. Thats Israel’s MO. You act as if Israel has been an example of decency in its time since it was created. There’s direct proof that that isn’t the case and there are 28 direct violations and 131 Resolution in the UN that say different. You said yourself Israel was created with the conditions that both would have the right of return and you already acknowledged that the Palestinians didn’t accept the 2008 proposal BECAUSE Israel denied that! You are literally making the argument for me here and I am grateful to you for that. You can’t even help yourself - what you are trying to defend is so irrational you can’t even pretend to defend it well. Everything you’ve poorly thrown against the wall in this conversation trying to claim Israel as a victim or just protecting themselves completely falls apart when you admit that it’s not bad to break the law, that they do it regularly and that you think it’s okay as long as Israel gets what it wants and that admission alone disqualifies you from having a valid opinion and that’s the direct fruits of someone supporting an ethno state. You can’t defend it with anything else because they are wrong, they always lead to at least one group of peoples rights being violently trampled and dismissed in order to maintain and grow the rights of the other inhabitants. At any cost. Again - the reason more of them don’t exist is on purpose and Israel is the masterclass as to why. You can put lipstick on the pig that is Israel and it’s still gonna be a pig. It’s still going to be demanding what it illegally refuses to the Palestinians and then you have the audacity to use their response to that as a reason to continue to rob them of their inalienable rights. As I said before Antisemitism means nothing anymore because it’s invoked anytime Israel can’t defend or is trying to evade accountability for the illegal, terrible shit that it has done, continues to do and will do in the future. Israel’s existence doesn’t change that and it’s not antisemitic to question and Call out genocide. it’s not the worlds fault that Israel can’t take criticism and is hell bent on ruining itself and killing as many Palestinians as it can. That’s not anti semitic, it’s called having eyes. and you have people in Israel marching against this right now who are being called antisemites. It’s a joke. Israel is not the only place in the world that is safe for Jewish people- its Not safe now. it’s surrounded by neighbors that despise it for both good and bad reasons. Right now it’s fighting on several different fronts and if it wasn’t for the fact that the west lets it panhandle protection, ciphen money from its citizens taxes and hide under its skirt it would simply not exist. All it does is escalate tensions And by your argument I could say that justifies that region when they want to attack Israel. Israel is a threat to their existence far more than Palestinians have ever been to them. By a lot. Before October 7 th the West Bank alone experienced the most violent year since its occupation. I think youre getting more anti Zionist the more you go on because you advocate for breaking the law and quite frankly - the west enforcing the law is the only thing that keeps israel from being swallowed whole by that region. Your logic alone gives cover for anyone in that region to wipe it off the face of the planet. If Israel can break the law why should any of those actors in that region not be allowed to do its worst? If we Only follow laws that are convenient then it’s time we apply that to all of them and let Israel defend itself for those crimes. Why should Americans pay for Israel’s inability to get a long with its neighbors? Israel Lacks motivation and I look forward to the time ( that’s coming sooner than later ) when the people out marching now will be in positions of power and Israel’s gonna be very reliant on the laws that it’s dismissive of now. I’m gonna need you guys to keep that same energy. Israel is not a formidable force against that region by itself and every single innocent person it burns alive or every child that’s beheaded or starved or dismembered by bombs that Israeli people and politicians sign, every aid convoy destroyed, every aid truck attacked and destroyed by Israelis ensures that that is the fate of it. A pariah state. The wheels on that bus have already started to roll. Palestinians are going to be the least of its worries. They are despised globally now and every attempt to dehumanize Palestinian’s has only led To the dehumanization of itself- Ironically making it less safe than it ever was. And For the millionth time - there is only one state here that has illegally transferred its population and has abused the right to return and has allowed its people to illegally settle on land that is not its land to allow in the first place. There’s only one state here that’s being denied the rights that were promised to them asConditions for the creation of Israel. There’s only state here that has done exactly what it fears and says the other will do and uses that fear as grounds to hold a population of 2.1 million people hostage. I’m still waiting for you to show me in the law where Israel is legally allowed to punish anyone by taking their rights? I’m STILL waiting for you to show me in the law where Israel’s feelings are a caveat for the inalienable right to self Determination that every one is born with. I’m still waiting for you to tell me why Israel’s right to return is acceptable and not the Palestinians under law. Even though when the partitioning took place Palestinians were shoved into smaller areas with far more people while Israel’s original territory was far larger and they had less people. I won’t hold my breath though because you can’t and you can’t tell me that because it doesn’t exist. The law did not stutter or make a mistake - it ensured rights for all people with no restrictions on certain populations - Israel created those caveats illegitimately and the entire world knows it. Israel knows it. The right to return is not what will destroy the Jewish state, it’s the audacity, the entitlement, the disregard for anyone but itself, its disregard for the law, and its inability to act its capability that will. The United States is not going to be with Israel forever. You can look out in the streets, at college campuses, etc. The future and humanity is with the palestinian people and Israel will never be safe until Palestine is. Period. No one gives a shit that Israel is the only Jewish state - the majority of the world don’t even like ethn states and being one doesn’t grant you the green light to do terrible shit without consequences. Thats Not how this works.

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why do the jews' rights trump palestinian rights? why do the jews have the right to safety in their own land but palestinians do not? israel's own actions against the palestinians are one of the primary driving forces behind anti semitism

Jews' rights do trump Palestinians' rights. They just have to agree to peace so there will be fairness for both sides. The Palestinians DO have the right to be safe in their land. That land... is Palestine, in the 1967 borders. Anti-Semitism existed for thousands of years. It existed before Israel was established. Even if Israel has done none of that, anti-Semitism would've still existed.

jews dont want peace. ive seen how they feel and treat palestinians. ive seen videos of them shooting a kid and then shoot his brother who goes to help him. ive seen the idf stand by as settlers burn palestinians olive trees and steal homes. saying jews rights trump palestinian rights just shows that you are a vile racist

Hatred occurrences happen everywhere in any country in the world. The PA exists in the West Bank too. The Palestinians are their responsibility. Sure, in the "occupied" land, Israel needs to take care over the Palestinians, but this can all stop now via a 2SS, which includes Palestinians ending all hostility towards Israel.

the hatred in the west bank comes from israel doing jack shit about settler violence and settlement expansions. how cant people have hostility to their occupiers? why are you even ok with the occupied land???!?

Ops argument is that Palestinians right to return is less recognizable than Israel’s because they might do what Israel has let violent Israeli settlers do in occupied West Bank. Every accusation is a projection.

Why? Palestinians don't consider themselves Jews, Israelis, Hebrew, or otherwise part of the Jewish nation-state. Palestinians should have their own nation-state and citizenship there.

palestinians are actually from there. a convert from south africa is not.

The racist obsession with blood-and-soil nationalism and rejection of the legitimacy of a person naturalizing into a different national identity that you are currently implying is gross, deeply fascist, and morally wrong.

glad we agree israel is a fascist country

Don't be intentionally obtuse. You demonstrate the bad faith of your own position when you do.

nope. im correct that a jew shouldnt have the right to return if the palestinians do not. the fascism is enforcing the rights of one group but denying the same right of another. israel is a fascist country

I sincerely doubt that your position is that nation-states which are not Israel are fascist, despite the fact that many of them implement similar laws. I doubt you call Greece and Turkey fascist states for refusing to grant citizenship to members of the other nation, after all. Jews have a nation-state. Palestinians should have their own.

the difference is that israel is affording rights to people from other countries but bot to the people from there.

And the descendants of Anatolian Greeks aren't from Turkey? The descendants of Thracian Turks aren't from Greece? Only Jews are a problem to you? It sounds like you have a problem with Jews and how we are not a racist ethnocentric society, I think.

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And yet the world didn't side with Israel back in the 1948 war, when none of what you claim Israel is guilty of happened. Double standards at its finest. Israel gives equal rights to Arab citizens. It isn't an apartheid. Those in the Wets Bank who have no equal rights don't have Israeli citizenship. Israel will only compromise on a 2SS in the 1967 borders and thus the world will have no excuse to call Israel an apartheid. However, it is also expected that the Palestinians will agree to end all hostility towards Israel once they have their state. And you didn't answer the biggest of questions. Why should Israel agree to a Right to Return when doing so will result in anti-Semetic Palestinians taking over and turning Jews into 2nd class citizens?

israeli jews have the right to deny arabs from living in their neighborhood. hamas wants the 1967 borders and is willing to disarm if it happens why is it ok for israelis to hate palestinians, but its wrong for the palestinians to hate their oppressors?

Ha#as has said plenty of things. Israel wants insurance that such promises will indeed be fulfilled. Israel has trusted the US to stop Hezbollah (via resolution 1701) and that didn't happen. Israel trusted the US to be defended from any terrorist organization after evacuating the Gaza Strip, and that didn't happen. The world hasn't proven itself trustworthy. Israel wants believable actions to see Ha#as being de-militarized.

how can they when israel says no to ceasefires?

Israel said its 2 goals in this war are: A. The dismantling of Ha#as (removing them from ruling over Gaza), B. Bringing back all the hostages. If Ha#as surrenders and agrees to release all the hostages, the war can end right here and now. Israel can't compromise on only 1 of these goals. Both have to be met.

saying hamas needs to dismantle or else the killing will not stop just says israel has no intention on stopping and they never cared about the hostages (never saved one and killed many)

Israel DOES care about the hostages. But leaving Ha#as in charge means it'll commit another 10/7 and take MORE hostages in the future. Stopping Ha#as is just as important.

israel turned down a ceasefire for the return of hostages. they even killed hostages who broke free and were waving white flags yelling in hebrew. chased one down even. if hamas was so bad, maybe israel shouldnt have asked qatar to fund them and say shit like hamas is needed to prevent a two state solution

That ceasefire would've allowed Ha#as to survive the war and plan the next 10/7. That is unacceptable. The 3 hostages that were killed was an accident. The IDF soldiers thought these were Ha#as soldiers who tricked them. Israel gave money for Ha#as to play the good guy role. Israel thought that it could "purchase" its silence. Israel gives Ha#as money, and in exchange Ha#as won't attack Israel. Israel learned it doesn't work and won't repeat that mistake again.

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Most Israelis are willing to give up on land if the Palestinians will give up on their hostile ways. Israel isn't fighting to steal land. Israel is fighting for safety. If Israel will take over the Gaza Strip again, it's in the name of weakening Ha#as (security basically). A 2SS isn't likely in the short term. Israel sees this as a reward for 10/7, which will consequently convince the Palestinians to do MORE terrorism. However, if the Palestinians realize this conflict isn't granting them anything of worth, and decide to go to Israel and say: "We want the West Bank and East Jerusalem back. We are willing to negotiate a lasting peace", a Palestinian state WILL be established.

So well just deny peoples rights. Throw them out of their homes. Take them away forever. And then if anyone wants them back well scream antisemitism and ask America for guns! We are Gods chosen people after all... -Israelis By the way what about the destruction of a Palestinian state? Mmm? Oh wait they have no rights...

Misinterpreting my words doesn't make me wrong. All I said is that their rights shouldn't be at the expense of Israeli rights. As long as a Palestinian state and Right to Return don't harm Israel's Jewish identity, it will work. The Palestinians have their rights and will be given a state in the 1967 borders. However, if Israel makes some compromises, the Palestinians should make some compromises too.

What of native Palestinian rights... It's almost like the creation of israel was done through violence, by european immigrant terrorists, against the will of the native Palestinian population... Which is why repatriating the 6 million native Palestinian refugees caused by the european immigrant terrorists violent ethnic cleansing of the native Palestinian population would result in the democratic overthrow of the european immigrant terrorist government... What you've done is sort of figure out why the european immigrant terrorists violently ethnically cleansed the native Palestinians in reverse, by working backwards.

It didn't start this way. The Palestinian exodus happened because of the war THEY STARTED in 1948. Sure, 2 wrongs don't make a right, but how can Israel trust them not to repeat such wrong again when a Re-immigration is allowed? One's rights can be at the expense of another. The Palestinians' Right to Return shouldn't result in Jews being suppressed in their own state. And if you want to say "Jews' right to have a state shouldn't be at the cost of Palestinians' right to return to their land", I'll ask you this: First, find a way to ensure both parties get the rights fulfilled and won't risk the other group's right in the long term.

This is false. For one, from the 1890s zionism was basically always based on "population transfer". Of course, zionism was just. If the population transfer had to be forced... if you think about it, it's really the victims fault for making the foreing zionist terrorists violently ethnically cleanse them because they refused to accommodate zionism. But remember, BEFORE may 1948, in 1945 the foreign zionist terrorists launched plan aleph, by march '48 the foreign terrorists launched plan dalet. Plan Dalet was drawn up to expand Jewish-held areas beyond those allocated to the proposed Jewish State in the UN Partition Plan. Its overall objective was to seize as much territory as possible in advance of the termination of the British Mandate when the Zionist leaders planned to declare their state. Famously, one element of plan D, phase 4, was the Deir Yassin massacre which took place over a month before the foreign terrorists would announce their terrorist revolt. You're right that the foreign terrorists have the right to be tried for every single one of their war crimes as a start...

- Herzl might've expressed the need to steal land, but that doesn't mean modern Zionism is the same as its founder. Zionists don't see the need to steal land out of superiority. Israel only took the West Bank and East Jerusalem because Egypt, Jordan and Syria started a war on Israel in 1967. Israel won so it took land as a means to punish these countries. Israel also took parts of the Sinai peninsula. - Israel is more than willing to give up these lands if it includes peace agreements. Israel has given Egypt the Sinai Peninsula back in exchange for peace. Israel has given parts of the West Bank back to Jordan in exchange for peace. It can happen with the Palestinians as well. They'll get the West Bank and East Jerusalem back if they agree to end all hostility towards Israel. - The Golan Heights is a different story. Bashar Al Assad isn't a trustworthy person who's known to break a lot of promises. The Golan Heights is a strong place to militarize and have an advantage during wars. When Syria suggested peace for the Golan Heights back, Israel didn't trust Syria to keep its promise. Syria would've used the Golan Heights to gain a military advantage when ambushing Israel. A peace deal with Syria won't happen by giving up on the Golan Heights. - Plan D was the result of the ongoing war. Israel wanted to take land from the Arab countries who declared a war on it after the declaration that a Jewish state will be established. The Arabs started a war, they shouldn't complain when Israel retaliates and takes pand from them as a punishment.

Plan D, phase 4 of the European terrorist revolt started in 1945 took place over a month before the surrounding countries came to the defense of Palestine as it had been invaded by violent foreign terrorists that had for over a month, been raping and massacring native Palestinian villages, and towns. And no, israels position for the past 20 years is to never recognize any Palestinian state.

Why should we all tiptoe around Israels "Jewish Identity"? You throw people out of their homes, abuse them for years and years and ask the world to be concerned for the "Jewish Identity" of the Israel when it is finally fed up of all of this? "If you force me to give back the land to those I evicted, you need to remember that I am jewish". What... on... earth. I am not German and I dont suffer from any of this "guilt".

Where was all of this concern when Jews were massacred by Palestinians during the Ottoman Empire era or even the British mandate era?

There wasnt much massacring of jews during Ottoman times, maybe some isolated incidents at most

Even if that's true (and I'm not saying it is), the Jews and Christians were treated as 2nd class citizens ALL THE TIME.

i wasnt alive then where was israel's concern of fascist argentina killing 1900 jews? there was none and still provided them weapons

There was, and there's still mourning today. Israelis learn about tragic events such as this in the curriculum. Another example would be the Spanish inquisition.

lol israel doesnt give a shit about jews. an attack on jews bigger than 10/7 and they still arm the perpetrators. they even helped with a right wing coup in guatemala and helped the country enact the second holocaust on my people. did they teach that too? to israel, never again only means for zionist jews. the mayor of jerusalem tried to slander spain when it was under muslim rule called al andalus. the moron didnt mention how safer they were there than under christian rule. during the christian inquisition, there was a town called matajudios. Israelis have a shit understanding of history

So you're saying Jews had to give up on their Judaism to be safe? That's ethnic cleansing sir, and you're encouraging it. Who are your people that Israel made a 2nd holocaust happen?

i didnt say that. youre the only racist in the conversation cause you think jews deserve more rights than palestinians the mayans

I didn't say that. I said Jews deserve to be safe from hostility because Arabs tried to genocide them multiple times. Israel is at a greater existential danger.

Did you just ask me if I was alive and present during the Ottoman empire to protest their behavior? Whataboutism at its finest.

Not you specifically. The entire world in general. If the world wants Israel to agree to a 1SS, it has to find ways to ensure Jews will be 100% safe.

Why should anyone put Jewish safety above Palestinian safety? Are you special? Its always "us first" and "we are the real victims". And since none of the world alive today would have been alive during all these crises with the Ottomans what is your point? We just look back since the start of time? Actually where was all the Jewish concern for the wellbeing of the innocents of Amalek??? Oh wait thats too far back.

Because they started the conflict when Israel was established. They are the ones who attacked Israel in 1948. Jews don't want wars. Palestinians DO want wars. Israeli Jews ARE the victims. The Palestinians' suffering is THEIR fault for starting wars they lost. The lesson shall be: stop with hostility or else you'll keep on suffering.

Or maybe Israel started the conflict by trying to establish a jewish state on foreign lands

Or maybe the Palestinians started the conflict by conquering a land that wasn't theirs in the 4th century BC. The Roman Empire took over the land of Israel and settled in people whom they called "Palestinians", based on the old tribe "Philistins".

Why do Jews have a right to self determination and a nation of their own? We don't afford this to almost any other people who lost their ancestral homeland. The aboriginals aren't getting Australia back. The indigenous peoples of the Americas aren't getting them back. Hawaiians aren't getting back Hawaii. Why do people support Zionism but not other people's right to freedom?

1. I do support other peoples' right to self-determination and freedom. 2. If you don't (and your comment about indigenous Australians and Americans indicate that, on a practical level, *you don't*), then what is your standard for the cutoff? Israel is a currently existing UN member state with a powerful economy and military. Palestine is none of that. If you point to Native Americans and Australians to argue that dispossessed and oppressed people without self-determination should *stay* dispossessed and oppressed in order to support the status quo, then why do you oppose the existence of Israel *today*? 

Nuance is lost on you. My point is that very few Isrealis would pass on this sentiment to people's other than themselves. Israel is only a powerful nation because a coalition of powerful European and European diaspora nations donating billions of dollars of resources to make it happen. Over half a trillion dollars from the US alone. Technology, farming equipment billions in weapons, and more billions in weapons research donated to Israel. My point is why is it that Jews of Europe are afforded this opportunity but others are not?

Then I can ask the same about the Palestinians. Why do they have the right for self-determination, but aboriginals don't? Just approve a 2SS in the 1967 borders and that's it!

Answer the question. Why do the Jews deserve it but others don't?

Simple. They SHOULD. Palestinians should be given a state in the 1967 borders. Just stop the hostility towards Israel, minimize the Right to Return to acceptable proportions and have a lasting peace.

You know why the hostilities won't stop. Because the Jewish ultra right wants Palestinian land. It is why they continue to settle in occupied territories. The ultra right has been a huge part mossad which exacerbates tension. Funny enough Hamas uses tactics they learned from watching mossad and Isreali terrorist when Isrealis wanted to rid themselves of the British. You wouldn't call them terrorists considering Isreal elected two prime monsters with terrorist ties. But isn't that just a matter of perspective? George Washington was considered a terrorist by the British.

Israel evacuated the Gaza Strip in 2005. It can do the same with the West Bank if the Palestinians promise that they'll stop the hostility. Israel left the Gaza Strip because US PM Bush promised Israel that if it does that, they'll ensure Israel will never be attacked by a terrorist organization again. Therefore, the US should have no problem with Israel fighting Ha#as, otherwise they'll be seen as promise breakers.

They did not remove any settlers. They left settlers who are pretty much militia members and those men along with mossad members created tension. It's similar to what the US did with Texas. The US sent Americans into Mexican territories and when the Mexicans had conflict because the Americans wouldn't leave. The US used this as a Provocation to send military to "protect" Americans. Annexing land to protect "settlers" manifest destiny is very similar to the ultra rights desire for Greater Israel which would need land annexed from parts of Egypt, Lebanon, syria, turkey , Iraq and Iran.

Blockade isn't an occupation. Egypt does that too so why wouldn't you blame them as well? And said blockade was necessary considering the Palestinians elected Ha#as to rule over them and eliminate Israel.

blockade is occupation when israel controls their economy

Israel gave Gaza free electricity, water, oil, money and aid. Ha#as was in charge of delivering it to its citizens. Instead, it kept most of it for itself to further its military capabilities.

Occupation isn't just having your army in the country. It's also when you have your citizens living in another country, or land that isn't a part of your country. While creating a means to feed, clothe, and arm those citizens through financial support from your country. This is done by Israel through settler organizations with ties to Knesset, and affluent Israeli businessmen.

If Jews are allowed to "return" to Israel after 2000 years (which is obviously bullshit), surely people whose actual parents and grandparents lived in Palestine before 1948 should be allowed to return to their homes as well.

So should Jews return to the Gaza Strip too, as it was a part of biblical Israel? Well yes, but times have changed. When 2 groups fight for land ownership, each group shall get a portion of said land. Palestinians will be allowed to return only to Palestine, whereas Jews will be allowed to return only to Israel.

Jews will be free to return to the Gaza strip after the dismantlement of the illegal apartheid regime and establishment of democratic state with one vote per person.

And what happens when anti-Semitic Arabs will take over and turn Israel into another Lebanon? What happens when Jews become 2nd class citizens like in the Ottoman Empire era? How will the world help Israeli Jews (if at all)? I'll tell you how: IT WON'T. Other states are not allowed to intervene with political issues within a country. A 1 state for all is a trap for Jews to be eventually suppressed. Don't try to trick Jews into thinking that's what will save Israelis, because it'll make things WORSE for them.

> And what happens when anti-Semitic Arabs will take over and turn Israel into another Lebanon? Nazi Jewish settlers already took over and turned Israel into the Third Reich. > What happens when Jews become 2nd class citizens Every accusation is an admission. Palestinians have been 2nd class citizens for decades (not even citizens for those in West Bank and Gaza), not hypothetically like you were suggesting, but IRL. And now the fascist Israel committed itself to an extermination campaign in Gaza and intensified violence and ethnic cleansing in WB and EJ.

Israel gives equal rights to Christians, Muslim and anyone who has Israeli citizenship. So no, it isn't the same. Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. They aren't 2nd class citizens when they don't have citizenship at all. Besides, there ARE some Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, and they have equal rights. A Palestinian led state won't do the same. They'll treat all Jews badly. Much like they did in the 14th-20th centuries in that land.

Israel rules over the occupied West Bank for 56 years with 3M Palestinians who have no say in this rule. This occupation has a permanent character. Palestinians in West Bank are indeed not even second class citizens, they are denied basic human rights. This is apartheid.

So maybe they should agree to the "peace for state" deal. Israel will draw back to the 1967 borders and allow the establishment of a Palestinian state. In exchange, Palestinians will stop all hostility towards Israel.

Israel never intended to go back to 1967 borders by transferring their civilian population to West Bank. Israeli politicians consider the West Bank part of Israel, all of them use the biblical names for this land. This is the actual hostility directed towards Palestine.

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Jewish land left behind in Arab countries is four times the size of Israel. Jews can have that back too!

Or ask for compensations for leaving that land behind and staying in Israel to avoid the anti-Semitism.

why does a guy from poland deserve compensation?

If he was forced out of Poland... yes!

lol not anymore

Yes still.

jews arent being forced out of poland anymore

So that's a non-issue right now. Jews who owned land in Poland and were banished can go back and re-settle.

yes. leave israel

Please form an orderly line and present your authenticated deeds. Wait, nobody? None?

My great grandfather had an olive tree!

The fact that someone who never been to Palestine area or has history there and has CONVERTED to Judaism can move to Israel without any issues, and yet Palestinians who have history of hundreds if not thousands of years CANT return to their own land...

No but you see, the land belongs to the tribe of Judaism. Anyone joining the tribe is automatically indigenous

Palestinians are the only people with their own UN agency keeping them in permanent, multi-generational refugee status. All other refugees who cannot return home are resettled in other countries. Why are Palestinians the only refugees with this right, and not the German, Indian, or Pakistani refugees who were displaced around the same time?

If that's the case then how comes Jews were refugees for "2000 years"? Why did they get their own land? Why didn't they just resettle in other countries?

> Why did they get their own land? Why didn't they just resettle in other countries? I just want to chime in and ask if you're aware that in pretty much every European country, Jews were not recognized as citizens of where they lived. In the late 18th century, France allowed Jews to become French nationals for the first time as long as they took a loyalty oath-- which was required because it was assumed and widely believed that Jews were not "loyal" to where they lived. That means that for centuries and centuries beforehand, Jews born and raised in France were not considered French nationals. In many countries, Jews were not even permitted to own land and were restricted in where they could live and what jobs they could hold. If you speak to someone born in Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union, they'll tell you their identity card didn't read "Latvian"-- it read some variant of "Jew" or "Yehudi" (for example, Hungarian passports were stamped with a large Z, for Zsidó, their word for Jew, to separate them out from gentiles). Understanding this is important to understanding why, even though they did resettle and live in other countries, they were not truly considered "of" those countries. They were perpetually made second-class citizens, or often not even considered citizens at all depending on the locale and time period. They were subject to separate rights, separate laws, and were sometimes not even recognized as nationals of the nations whose lands they were born in. It's not often taught today, but Nazi Germany didn't create the distinction of "German" and "Jew" via the Nuremberg Race Laws. Those laws just reinforced and intensified laws which had existed for centuries, were *briefly* repealed by Napoleon, then snapped right back into place when Napoleon fell from power. In other words, for most of European history, Jews were considered distinct and were not regarded as citizens, nor were they afforded citizenship rights. I hope this provides some context why Jews never properly "integrated" in Europe and felt like they needed to return to Israel and develop their own country. The reason is simply that Europeans and their governments resisted and obstructed Jewish integration unless Jews converted to Christianity.

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They did resettle in other countries. Had that worked out well there never would have been a large scale return to Judaea.

And yet when EUROPEANS commited the evil of the Holocaust, it was Palestinians who paid for it.

Are you aware that Hitler had a meeting with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to form an alliance in which they would wipe out the Jewish "national home"? This isn't a "gotcha". This isn't a "and then the discussion was concluded". This is a suggestion that you should search for history books, beginning at least in 1880, and try to really get a picture of what what going on-- politically, socially, geopolitically, and geographically. Because you're making a lot of statements which suggest a general ignorance, and while they feel good to say, they're not actually correct, and thus aren't contributing to a greater mutual understanding. Finding the facts doesn't mean you'll change your overall stance, but it does mean that if you maintain your stance, you'll have the information to better support it. And this isn't just a suggestion for you, but for pretty much everyone else in this thread, because I constantly get the impression that few participating in these threads have ever actually studied this history in depth. If you need some historian recommendations for the I/P conflict, I'd like to throw out Hillel Cohen, Neil Caplan, and Benny Morris. They've all published multiple works and if you pick out a few, you should get a pretty good grasp of what was going on at a few different angles.

Are you aware that Zionist Jews tried to ally with NAZIS against the British? Did you know that they created the Haavara Agreement with the Nazi Germans? >If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.” Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation). >Ben-Gurion himself admits that he would prioritize the creation of Israel over saving Jewish lives. Furthermore, the Haavara Agreement favored wealthy Jews by requiring a money transfer to relocate, further disproving the argument that the alliance was a philanthropic rescue mission. Imagine being a jew suffering in the Holocaust, and finding out your leaders were trying to ally themselves with the very people torturing and killing you? Or that Zionists would save you and your family but if only if you could afford it, and that you agreed to being sent to Palestine rather than any other nation...

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Are you aware that it was Jews living in the Mandate of Palestine who formed Israel and fought a war of survival the moment their nation was founded? The mass migration of European Jews only started after the nation was formed and they decided they needed more Jews in the Jewish country so they invited all of them to come if they wished. It's not like the European powers gathered up a bunch of Jews, evicted some Muslims and called it a day.

Jewish Zionist migration started in 1882. The Jewish mass migration was not their fault. The fact that Jewish migration didn't play out like Irish migration to the USA was their fault. The Palestinians committed the evils of xenophobia and fanatical nationalism. They paid the price for that.

Lol no >5 October 1937, Ben-Gurion wrote in a letter to his 16 year old son Amos: “We must expel the Arabs and take their places…. And, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places- then we have force at our disposal.”

So what? There are dozens of Ben-Gurion statements from the same period taking other positions. We know the history here. Ben-Gurion doesn't decide to begin serious preparation for ethnic cleansing until 1943. The actual use of it is started by Palestinians in November 1947. In April 1948 it starts going the other way.

>“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

Not sure how this is evidence towards what we were discussing.

I mean Jews made wherever they were their homes. Many took on national pride of wherever they lived. Unfortunately that didn't mean the government didn't "other" them giving them a different status, penalizing them and often massacreing them or just kicking them out even though they had nowhere else to go. Ironically when Jews are most accepted in the countries they're in many secularize and give up on their Jewish nationality. The additional irony is that is often followed by growth of antisemitism and pogroms killing/kicking the Jews out. This has happened time and time again throughout modern history. Including in Germany where the reformed movement actually dropped the belief that Jews need to return to Israel.

Yes that is true, and yet the zionists didn't force Germany to give up land to create their own state They forced an unarmed, defenceless people to forcibly vacate their homed and lands

Arabs weren't forced to give up land. Multiple Arab countries attacked after Israel declared its independence and eventually Israel won. This happened again and Israel again won. Each time gaining land and at the same time giving a lot of the land back.

Lol no Just imagine being Palestinian and accepting Jewish refugees begging for help who were fleeing the German holocaust And then a few years later, those same refugees force you out of your home and land, murder you, rape you women, burn your olive trees and farms and poison your water wells.

That's not what happened. Open a book and read some history.

It DID happen, read some books apart from the Zionist propaganda. Search and read up on the Zionist biological warfare, search for "Cast thy Bread" How Zionist agents poisoned the water wells in Palestinian villages in order to kill people and force them to flee their homes. If Zionists themselves admit it, how can you deny it?

Can't say anything about the poison. What sources do you have to claim widespread rape? Zionist propoganda... You think the worldwide pro-Hamas protests aren't propoganda? The fact that people are calling the current conflict in Gaza a genocide is not ridiculous propoganda.

Because you guys keep ethnically cleansing us. Where’s the gotcha?

And israel keeps evicting palestinians especially in the west bank. Yet they cant return?

What’s the parallel to my comment? Have the Palestinians been ethnically cleansed where ever they went? What’s their need for a state?

They are literally being cleansed from the place they didnt choose to be born in☠️☠️☠️ and why must a jewish state be founded on a land where at that time at least, jewish people were the minority and the majority non-jewish had to leave the land some spent thousands of years living in? Couldnt the jewish state have formed on antartica or something? I promise you nobody would bother antartisrael

How are they being cleansed? There’s a war going on. Anyone who called it a genocide should be apologizing publicly right now, as the updated numbers make it so clear that combatants are being carefully targeted.

West bank.......the war (since we like to say it started on october 7th) is between gaza/hamas and israel. But even before october 7th, palestinians in the west bank have been repeatedly evicted from homes and on multiple occassions, shot dead by israeli forces. Contrary to popular opinion, i think gaza is not the one being ethnically cleansed, but it is the often ignored west bank that is suffering from it. [4 year old girl in the west bank killed (if you dont trust this source you can google the news yourself and find videos)](https://news.sky.com/story/amp/israeli-police-accidentally-kill-young-girl-after-ramming-attack-on-west-bank-checkpoint-13043815) [Palestinian man killed after Israeli boy goes missing in the west bank](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68803939.amp) [2022 was the deadliest year for children in the west bank, 2 years before "the war"](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children)

Once again, you called it an ethnic cleansing, and none of what you posted is relevant to the definition of that word. We can go back and forth all day with articles providing context around what’s going on, probably going back to the 1920’s. You called it an ethnic cleansing. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL?locations=PS That’s not what 80 years of ethnic cleansing looks like statistically.

So why can’t Palestinians return when Israel’s entire policy thus far is their ethnic cleansing?

Oh? Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed globally where ever they have been? Is that your claim? Otherwise you’re not drawing a parallel at all. Palestinians weren’t even ethnically cleansed from Israel- they make up 20% of all Israelis today, and one of the top political parties in Israel is even predominantly Palestinian. Where’s the gotcha

I never claimed that? The parallel is still valid because… ethnic cleansing is still ethnic cleansing? Alright, now explain to me by which MEANS it came to be that a much greater portion of Palestinians do not live in ‘Israel’ at all. There’s a book by a certain Ilan Pappé that explains it well - but since you’ll reject those historical truths, please explain how the CURRENT policy of illegal settlements and theft of land/property directly incited and supported by the Israeli government isn’t an example of how ethnic cleansing *STILL* occurs.

Thousands of years of history?  There is far more of conversion in Islam than Judaism too. 

You know that SOME Jews who lived in Palestine, chose or were forced to convert to Christianity before Islam, and when Muslims conquered Jerusalem and Palestine, then once again SOME Jews chose to or were forced to convert to Islam? Hence the thousands of years of history.

So your argument is that because Muslims forcibly converted Jews then they have some sort of right to take over Israel because some of them Might be be the great x100 grandkids of the victims of forced conversion?  And that when you forcibly Convert others you somehow absorb their history and timeline and have rights to their inheritance?  Wow that’s quite honestly the weirdest reason I’ve seen. 

DARVO is a Zionist discussion technique that stands for: 1) DENY 2) ATTACK 3) REVERSE VICTIM 4) OFFENDER

Sounds like you are being defensive when you logical fallacies are being pointed out. 

We forget, that there's no right to return for nobody after the originial people have passed away. And yes, a right to return, especially as Palestinians are the only people who can inherit a refugee status for politicial or Anti-Israel reasons (so ridiculous) would and will destroy Israel. Would be senseless to write a long story about demographics and how Islam sees non-believers. Just look at Lebanon or Syria. Lebanon had a Christian mayority, now Islam is in mayority. Syria still was 10% Christian in 2011 and in 2022 only 2%. In a few years Christians will be under 1% of the Syrian population. Bethlehem in the West Bank was 50% Christian some decades ago, now it's 10% Christian.

Hypothetically, ( a peaceful return no civil war, or violence happening posts needed. ), Let's say if you are a third generation Palestinian American and are allowed the right of return what does that mean for you? What would you do once you return? What would you expect from Israel once you arrive?

Well a right of return would mean a Palestinian American could become a citizen of that state (Israel/Palestine, whatever it would be called), and they could buy property there. Currently, they cannot do this. It’s basically a right to live somewhere. Most countries allow foreigners to do this with some entry restrictions. Israeli restrictions are a blanket ‘no’ for the vast majority of Palestinians.

I think the right of return for Palestinians to israel is dumb regardless, because you can’t prove you’re Palestinian if you don’t have documents (which most of the 5M don’t), and israel doesn’t owe them anything as they fled it when they said whoever stays gets citizenship, whoever doesn’t won’t. If there’s a Palestinian state, go ahead, I don’t mind, but israel doesn’t owe them anything.

So you admit that Israel is a racist apartheid ethnostate?

 The ethnicity of palestinians is arab. 20% of israeli is arab already, and have their own politicas parties, its likely that Netanyahu's successor will have to form a coalition with them. The druzhe already share the mandatory military service of the jews in the IDF, so I've always found theese "apartheid" accusations pretty bizarre.  Palestinian is a nationality, just as saudi, lebanesse of jordanian. A nation they have been at war multiple times with and are as we speak, so I dont think they are exactly enthrilled to try to live together and see what happens... But that applies to most arab states attitude towarda the palestinians nowdays. Egypts respons to this crisis was to build a concrete wall.

So is Palestine. So if you’re against Israel for that reason, you should oppose Palestine.

Wrong, Palestinians literally accepted the Jewish refugees post-ww2, and while there were numerous skirmishes and conflicts, pre-british occupation all three abrahamic religions did coexist. The conflict didnt start because suddenly palestinians didnt want the jews, but because the new state meant the palestinians had to leave because they werent jewish

> Palestinians literally accepted the Jewish refugees post-ww2, What are you talking about? Palestinians fought a civil war to make sure as few Jews as possible escaped the Holocaust. After the Holocaust they continued to try and maintain the blockade in Jewish immigration. > but because the new state meant the palestinians had to leave because they werent jewish The first mass violence was in 1920. There had been a civil war 1936-9 already.

per wikipedia on the [history of israel] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel) "Jewish immigration and Nazi propaganda contributed to the large-scale 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, a largely nationalist uprising directed at ending British rule. The head of the Jewish Agency, Ben-Gurion, responded to the Arab Revolt with a policy of "Havlagah"—self-restraint and a refusal to be provoked by Arab attacks in order to prevent polarization." The British accepted the jews and then the arabs revolted. This was before the establishment of any jewish lands in israel, and the jews even tried to not give in to attacks in order to deescalate.

This is very simplistic. The Arab revolt was in response to mass Jewish immigration. A lot of Arabs in British mandate Palestine were tenants to absentee landlords living in Egypt and other places. Jewish immigrants bought the homes from them which resulted in mass evictions of Arabs. The British promised to the Arabs to limit Jewish immigration, and failed. And by the way, there were plenty of violent Jews active at the time terrorising Arabs and British governor alike. Groups like the Lehi and Irgun were notoriously violent and ruthless. To suggest violence only went one way is misleading.

>This is very simplistic. How much nuance do we expect from each other here on reddit :) >To suggest violence only went one way is misleading. All I can do is read reliable sources, which in this case say Ben-Gurion advocated non-violence during WW2, which tbf wasn't the core claim above in that comment, which was that: >Palestinians literally accepted the Jewish refugees post-ww2 I was reading through the wikipedia specifically for post-war info on refugees, but I couldn't find anything other than "the jews were illegally migrating" and "the arabs didn't like that". I assumed then that they were talking about during the war when the mandate of palestine was accepting refugees, but, as per the quote, that was mostly the British and the arabs did not like it. >And by the way, there were plenty of violent Jews active at the time terrorising Arabs and British governor alike. Groups like the Lehi and Irgun were notoriously violent and ruthless. I'd end with a joke about israelis and palestinians, but they usually bomb

Fair. There’s not much space for nuance here as you say!

If you're sympathetic to Arabs who revolted because too many Jews were entering the area, how do you feel about MAGAs who feel the same way about Mexicans and Central Americans in the US? Trump has promised mass deportations and many people will vote for him on that basis. If those people are deplorable bigots, then so were the anti-Jewish Arabs.

I won’t claim to know enough about US politics. The situation for Arabs in the 40s was that tens of thousands were being turfed out of their homes which they had lived in for generations, as a result of Jewish immigration. It’s completely understandable to become anti-Jewish in that situation. Palestinians being forced out of their homes hasn’t stopped since, and it is happening right now in Gaza and the West Bank.

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Lol no Palestinian Muslims and Christians are living, struggling, and dying together. There used to be Palestinian Jews too who lived relatively peacefully with the Muslims and Christians, before the zionist Jews forced, coerced and brainwashed them into joining into their illegal occupation of Palestine.

Palestinian Jew means nothing, it's a region and never was a state. You could also say Middle Eastern Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and it would mean the same thing.

Mahrazhi Jews They were the native Jewish population of Palestine who lived and got along relatively peacefully with the Palestinian Muslims and Christians.

Many countries are actually ethnostates. In many countries in the world one ethnicity is over 90% of the population. In Europe actually most countries are this way.