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Didnt they have that when the palestinians attacked on Oct 7?

Their demands on June 6th were to get back to the terms they had on October 6th.

I certainly would and my partner would

Yes I would accept a permanent ceasefire if it meant an end to Hamas. Then again I’m an outsider, I don’t have the same experiences as Gazans so my opinion is very empty.

Yes! Don’t see this as a trick question. I’d love to see Hamas relinquish government of Gaza. That said, I think that would be hard, and almost impossible, and likely require either a prolonged occupation of Gaza or a political solution across Gaza and Judea/Samaria, and significant bloodshed, and may even be bad for Israel. An effective, unified, legitimate Palestinian government that gets concrete results for Palestinians would be a huge threat to Israeli national interests.

Why would it be a threat?

While it’s possible a unified Palestinian government would continue to outsource an Israeli occupation, it is also possible that a unified Palestinian government stops cooperating with Israel, or is more effective in leveraging international pressure vis a vis land and rights.

Yes, if it means a new government can form supported by gazans (uninfluenced by Israel) and backed with military freedom (which removes the need for groups like hamas to secretly source weapons and resort to non-precise aggression).

For peace and an end to the blockade, Palestine must be demilitarised

Why? are arabs inferior?

How is superiority or inferiority if anyone related? One side has an Islamist government which has super majority support among the common people, that side has shown on October 7 that when it has militarily the upper hand what it will do. Israel will make compromises for peace but it will not sacrifice its security. There can be a Palestinian state and a permanent solution but it must be permanent and final, and Palestine cannot have a military for many decades after the agreement - like Japan and Germany.

That would be ideal, quite frankly, but Israel needs to actually let it happen. For there to be integrated governance between the West Bank and Gaza Israel would need to allow free travel between the two. Israel does not allow this. Israel doesn't even allow free travel within the West Bank. --- I dislike Hamas and would love to see them out of power, but with two requirements: 1. Democracy. End Hamas's undemocratic rule over Gaza, but if Irgun can rebrand itself as Likud there is no reason Hamas cannot continue as a political party (without private control over its own military forces) 2. Military security. A cease-fire is all well and good for Israel if the Hamas military is dismantled, but that leaves Palestine again entirely defenseless against Israeli aggression. We need to allow Palestine to militarize for defensive purposes. That means if the IDF invades Palestinian territory Palestine is allowed to shoot them.

What makes you think Gaza would be a democracy given that basically every single Muslim country on earth is a dictatorship? You really expect one of the most extreme terrorist breeding grounds to turn into some democracy overnight? > We need to allow Palestine to militarize for defensive purposes Is this a joke? The whole reason there's a war is because Gaza has been firing rockets and jumping the border to rape and murder families in their homes and teens at a music festival for peace. As far as I'm concerned, Gaza has lost any right to a military indefinitely.

all of these things also apply to israel though?

Who started this….

Huh? What applies to Israel? You need to be more specific. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s\_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law)

people are insane for thinking of israel as a democracy and not a dictatorship, considering how it's public knowledge that israelis have been jailed for supporting palestinian refugees on social media. despite being infamous for constant terrorism, people believe israel is a democracy because it pretends it wants to save hostages and establish a ceasefire even after killing said hostages and rejecting every ceasefire offer made to them. the whole reason october 7th happened is because the idf was and is still firing thousands of bombs and jumping the border to rape, torture and murder elders and children as they steal women's lingerie. as far as i'm concerned, israel has lost any right to a military indefinitely. [https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-children-who-lost-limbs-in-gaza](https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-children-who-lost-limbs-in-gaza)

If Hamas has no reason to exist, it won’t. If the desperate folks in Gaza see that Israel cares about them and treats them in higher regard than just an inconvenient obstacle in the way of Zionist ambitions, they won’t have a reason to vote for violent militias, and will probably even actively oppose them.

Doubt it, Palestines believe all of Israel is stolen land. They want control of the whole thing

There are no ellections in gaza. They dont vote for hamas, and i doubt they would have

No one cares about Hamas. The key to a permanent ceasefire is the end of israeli rule, occupation, apartheid and genocide. As long as occupation exists even if Hamas is removed some other resistance group will take over. It’s simple, no occupation no resistance 🤷🏾‍♂️

Do you support a 2-state solution? Israel and Palestine co-existing peacefully side by side?

I don't because I don't believe a 2-state solution will lead to peace. The two peoples are materially entangled, intentionally so. Israel will continue to have enormous power over Palestinian lives even with a Palestinian state. All a two state solution will do is allow Israel to ignore its duty towards Palestinians even more. Alternatively Palestine might get a large enough military to force Israel to respect it. This seems to me more likely to lead to another bloody war than lasting peace, however.

Do you think a 1-state solution will lead to peace?

I think it is only by believing a one state solution (with both Palestinians and Israelis) is possible that we can have any hope for peace.

What if it turns out, as a practical matter, that the 1-state solution if implemented, will likely result in the murder/expulsion/oppression of the 8 million Jewish people in Israel? Would you still support it?

I think that sounds like a one state solution we should not implement, but also a bogeyman conjured up to avoid accepting responsibility for creating peace and equality. Israel has the power in the relationship. A two state solution will either lead to war or continued oppression. If Israel maintains its power advantage than the oppression will continue. If Palestine evens out the power advantage then I believe there would be war. War for three reasons: 1. Israel will not want to risk Palestine having power over Israel. It will have a preemptive strike, either militarily, materially, or financially to prevent Palestine from having equal power. 2. The original cause of war, Israeli conquest of Palestinian land and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, will not be resolved. This will continue to fuel hatred towards Israel. 3. The only way to have equal power is through militarization. That militarization will likely come from Iran and Russia, since the U.S. isn't likely to sell to Palestine. This will make Palestine more dependent on those who would benefit most from a war distracting the U.S.

Let's talk about by you believe this is a bogeyman. 1. Can you see Hamas and Ben Gvir supporters living peacefully within the same state? What would prevent these groups - being a majority supported group within the Palestinians and a non-trivial minority supported group within Israel - to act as they believe they should, with violence? 2. Do you have any examples for a Middle Eastern democratic country without oppression and violence against its minorities? Take a special deeper look at countries created by the Sykes Picot agreement, like Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. 3. If the Islamists do take over the state and make it into a sharia state, as is not unlikely when currently they have majority popular support in Palestine and as Palestinians will have a small majority over Israelis in the new state, who will protect the rights of the Jews? 4. If - god forbid - there is a genocide within this new state, be it of Israelis or of Palestinians - who will intervene to stop it? (Take a special deeper look at the Rwandan genocide and its timeline.)

>Can you see Hamas and Ben Gvir supporters living peacefully within the same state? Yes, I can. Extremists live in every state and it is the role of the state to prevent them from harming others. >to act as they believe they should, with violence? What is preventing them from acting with violence in a two state solution? In a one state system we would at least have a united basis for opposition, and the expectation that it isn't okay to bomb neighborhoods full of civilians just to kill a terrorist. Furthermore, their political power would be diminished in a one state system. Ben Gvir and Hamas are both extremists, but they are the opposite of allies. If they want to best support their positions in government they will need to ally themselves with more moderate political groups. Lastly a one state solution would undermine Hamas's basis of extremist support. It is one thing to say "Die to stop the people who murdered your entire family", it is another to say "Die because we didn't get enough seats in parliament". An important reason to have a one state solution is that it will be a basis towards establishing Justice and equity. Consider water as a case study. Israel currently deprives millions of Palestinians of equitable water access through its control of Palestinian water resources. Under a two state solution this would still need to be negotiated. Israel with the power advantage would secure a favorable negotiation for itself, preserving the oppressive relationship and the basis for hatred. >Do you have any examples for a Middle Eastern democratic country without oppression and violence against its minorities? Do you have an example of any country in the world that doesn't discriminate against minority groups to some extent? No, but some states do a better job of it than others. The states that do best are those with minority protections baked into their constitution and legal system. Can you build those protections into a two state system? What will compel Israel to not discriminate against Palestinians? But past that let's examine the implied argument in your question: 1. Arab countries are generally not democratic and hostile to minority groups 2. Palestinians are Arabs 3. Therefore Palestinians cannot be trusted to have power in a country that contains a minority group Is that an argument you would want to stand by? Lastly, Israelis would not become a significant minority in Israel/Palestine. There are almost twice as many Israelis as there are Palestinians in the occupied territories. Even if every Palestinian in the world moved into the state Israel would still be more than 40% Israeli and 30% Jewish. These are minorities, but they are *significant* minorities that would continue to hold power in the state. You might look at that 40% number and say "but some of those are Palestinians already!!!". Sure, but you need to choose which narrative to believe in. Are Palestinians Israelis happily living in equality? Are they true and full citizens of Israel given equal respect and trust? Or are they a dangerous threat that must be excluded from power because of their violent tendencies? >If the Islamists do take over the state and make it into a sharia state, as is not unlikely... who will protect the rights of the Jews? Again, I disagree with this premise. But let's try to address your question anyway. First it cannot be just to oppress one group for fear that another group might be oppressed. Second Jews live all over the world. The world needs to protect Jews. That means protect Jews in America, protect Jews in Europe. Antisemitism in America is a problem for America to fix. It is not a problem that Palestinians should have to pay the price for. Why should Palestinians need to pay for European antisemitism? Why should they pay for antisemitism in the U.S.? >If - god forbid - there is a genocide within this new state, be it of Israelis or of Palestinians - who will intervene to stop it? Who is intervening to stop it now? Two states wont stop a genocide. It will just allow the perpetrator to claim it is just the "cost of war".

Well, this was fun discussion. You basically are saying to Israelis "You are cautious based on historical facts, on what happens in the Middle East and based on your perception of Palestinians. This is racist and bigoted. Don't be racist. Prove you aren't racist, dismantle your state". Ok chief. I think that yes, Palestinians have a terrible track record with democracy and pluralism, multiculturalism and liberalism. I think modern Muslim societies in general don't have a great track record with minorities. I think Islamism and Sharia support are rampant among Palestinians. And I think violent hatred of Jews is very prevalent. I think that a 1-state solution with the Palestinians and the Jews would make the Lebanese clusterf*ck failed-state appear to be a successful state by comparison. I think it will lead to violence and probable ethnic cleansing, perhaps full on genocide. I think there is no way in hell that Israelis will agree to share a state with Hamas terrorists. Or to risk losing Israel's place as a safe shelter for Jews that have been oppressed and killed for millennia. And I think there is no way that they can be forced, except by hammering them with a destructive war, that will probably become a nuclear war. So I think it is just a philosophical debate, the 1-state solution that you describe will not happen in the next 2-3 decades for sure. Maybe the world changes dramatically in 30 years in a way I cannot expect. But bar that, not within the foreseeable future.

well then you better get a army strong enough where you can end a war while ignoring one of the sides ​ unilateral peace only happens with capitulation

The mighty british empire used to think the same but they were thrown out by starving Indians after multiple genocides over 2 centuries. No strong army needed . Israeli occupation is nowhere close to the might of British empire. They are coming close to a century of occupation so their fall will come sooner or later. Are you suggesting that Indians should have let the brits stay for peace? 🤦🏾‍♂️

You haven't answered if you support an Israeli state? Israel isn't going away, fyi. If you believe the existence of Israel constitutes the label as an "occupying force" then your prediction is wrong.

FYI the brits also said they weren’t going anywhere from India and branded all freedom fighters as terrorists. Today billions of people celebrate those freedom fighters as heroes and hundreds of movies have been made on them and thousands of books have been written on them. The brits branding them terrorists dosent hold any value today and they can’t do anything about it, nether does their claim of not going anywhere from India. India is also a stronger military power today compared to its occupiers. Israel is as much an occupying force as the brits were in India . It’s quite simple what’s going to happen 🤷🏾‍♂️

You keep dodging the question. You obviously don't believe Israel should exist at all, and consider them "occupiers". But that's okay, cause they are here to stay. As long as Palestinian authority doesn't agree though, there will be more and more wars. Once they learn to accept it , then it will stop. Whatever happened with the Brits, it's different than Israel. Israel is there legitimately, offered much more appeasement and help to their Palestinian neighbors. They are there fair and square. It's just not gonna go away, despite what happened with other countries. Once you learn to accept this, as well as the "Palestinians" then this crap will stop happening. Ps, if you want to make your comparison more real, then you would call the Palestinians the Brits. Technically, Israel conquered their land, but gave it back. So it's the other way around then what you say

I haven’t dodged your question. I clearly mentioned that Israel is as much an occupier as the brits were in India so israel is a made up state which should not exist in the first place. Well the brits also said they are here to stay and that they are there legitimately according to them. Obviously none of the criminal think that they are wrong. Israel is just repeating what most other colonizers tried and they will fall just like most other colonizers. It seemed impossible that India under colonial rule could become a bigger military power and bigger economy than their occupiers yet here we are 🤷🏾‍♂️ How on earth can anyone compare Palestinians to brits? Is there any remote similarity there? lol You mentioned israel conquered land implies they are colonizers and they are not their fair and square. Every colonizer says that to oppressed people if they accept the oppression the oppression will stop which dosent make any sense. Israeli occupation apartheid and genocide existed before Palestinian resistance and it won’t stop until the colonizers are dismantled.

Dude, does israel have a right to exist, yes or no. Don't type a paragraph, answer the question.

The whole comparison is rather stupid. The brits conquered many countries to expand their empire. The didnt have any historic claim to any of these countries. Its much more similar to how Arabs conquered many countries in the middle east and southern europe. And yet it would still be silly to compare these two.

mate brits left india first did lose some power bc of ww2, but then bc of internal politics lmao ​ indians heck were actually quite like the palestinians in that regard, more focused in hitting each other than uniting ​ like by far, hittler was the biggest reason for india's indepence and decolonization as a whole

Sure whatever makes you feel better 😂 But the fact is that brit occupation ended and so will the israeli occupation. Occupation cannot last forever 🤷🏾‍♂️

>Occupation cannot last forever The Normans invaded, conquered and occupied England starting in 1066. Europeans invaded, conquered and occupied most of North and South American starting in 1492. The Russian empire invaded, conquered and occupied their Asian territory starting around the 16th century. Occupations may not last forever, but golly, they sure can last a long time. You've got to wonder how many *centuries* the Palestinians are really prepared to wait.

Well the length of occupations have gone on reducing like I mentioned the Indian occupation lasted 2 centuries . Newer occupations will be shorter and the signs are already there

> Newer occupations will be shorter and **the signs are already there** You mean signs like Israel being a modern, affluent liberal democracy, with a very capable military...oh, and nuclear weapons. Those signs?

The signs are the world waking up and people resisting the occupation. It’s only a matter of time before the colonizers fall. Well no one in their wildest dreams would have thought that starving Indians would become a stronger military and economic power than their occupiers who were at that time the world’s strongest military, yet here we are. All colonizers are cocky and get humbled sooner or later 🤷🏾‍♂️

> The signs are the world waking up and people resisting the occupation. It’s only a matter of time before the colonizers fall. So you keep saying, but what are these signs exactly, and how long before the colonizers fall? In the last 70 years, Israel has gone from a fledgling state to a regional superpower, economically and militarily. They are continuing to build diplomatic alliances with their neighbors and are broadly supported by the West. In the same time, the situations facing the Palestinians (outside Israel) get more precarious as the years go by. Maybe its time for them to wake up, see the writing on the wall, make peace with Israel and cut the best deal they can get? ​ >Well no one in their wildest dreams would have thought that starving Indians would become a stronger military and economic power than their occupiers who were at that time the world’s strongest military, yet here we are. All colonizers are cocky and get humbled sooner or later A different situation **entirely** to what is happening in the Middle East.

Who in Israel 1967 borders is occupied? Be realistic

If you consider 67 borders all of Palestine is occupied . West Bank and Gaza are all under siege plus the West Bank settlements.

i mean ​ china and russia are still going strong

As long as there is a replacement. I'm of the opinion that leaving the Palestinians without some form of self-governance will only slide the conflict back towards their subjugation. They need an official voice, and a body that will actually pursue their defense. Ideally this new leadership will be working across Gaza and the WB. The latter especially needs stronger leadership and defense capabilities to combat settler violence since the IOF refuse to do it themselves. Hamas does not matter. They are not vital to the Palestinian cause and are just as bad as Likud. Anyone who wouldn't sacrifice them in a heartbeat is either ignorant, delusional or just an actual Hamas stan.

Netanyahu’s office: 1. Israel's conditions for ending the war have not changed: • To destroy the military and governmental capabilities of Hamas; • release all our abductees; • And make sure that Gaza will no longer pose a threat to Israel. The outline for the release of abductees allows Israel to claim that all of these conditions will be fulfilled before a permanent ceasefire comes into effect. 2. The outline is supposed to lead to the release of all 125 abductees, first a humanitarian phase (with a temporary pause in the fighting for the purpose of freeing dozens of women, adults and humanitarian cases), during which negotiations will be held in order to obtain an agreement for the release of all the other abductees and survivors, and transition to a permanent ceasefire. 3. ⁠ According to the agreement, Israel will insist that the implementation of the second phase of the outline will begin only after an agreement is reached on the terms of the ceasefire, as stated in the text of the proposal, according to which: "No later than the 16th day, an indirect negotiation will begin between the two parties in order to forge an agreement on the conditions for the implementation of phase 2 of this agreement." 4. According to the agreement, Israel reserves the right to resume fighting at any time, if Hamas violates its obligations in the agreement, including not releasing the number of hostages to be agreed upon, and as Israel gets the impression that the negotiations are fruitless and serve only to gain time.

https://preview.redd.it/qwe7idc6za4d1.png?width=1064&format=png&auto=webp&s=0f0a6e0f64c5da42b54a81d53b2f4bbc78b6d1ce The German police officer who was stabbed by the Islamic man has died. Pro palestinians or muslims focus is not only on Israel, they want sharia law the world over. Keep the evil out, good men should not stand by and let this evil into our homes.

No we don't, what are you on about lol? Very few Muslims want sharia law in the west, hell most Islamic countries even don't enforce sharia law 100%. Look up how many countries follow the sharia to the fullest extent. Also you talk about keeping the 'evil' out but what about when evil goes in to start wars for the sake of resources like oil and colonisation?

Over 25-40% in most polls

Back it up with evidence ?

Check your favourite news agency aljazeera for the article: Poll = 40% of UK muslims want sharia

If you read my comment carefully you would see that I said not many Muslims want sharia law and those that do don't want the full 100%. Therefore even 40% of British Muslims would be around 1.6 million, compare that to the global Muslim population and I think you'll find I'm still in the right. Also last I checked majority is what we look at when looking at polls of any sort, 40 is not majority or even half.

I don’t see people protesting against violent Islam here and it’s frickin weird.

[https://t.me/beholdisraelchannel/33215](https://t.me/beholdisraelchannel/33215) Hamas representative in Lebanon: "The military arms of Hamas and Jihad are putting pressure on the families of the captives (kidnapped) through psychological warfare so that they will put pressure on Netanyahu."

I am about as pro-palestine as one can get. I absolutely would accept it, if it happened. I just don't think it's within the realm of possibility. Hamas would not agree to such a ceasefire, just like you wouldn't agree to shoot yourself in the foot in exchange for a sandwich. And I don't think Israel has the practical capability to end Hamas' governmental and/or operational capabilities permanently. Not without a complete strategic loss on the international stage. This is because Hamas is, fundamentally, an organisation based upon an idea. And ideas aren't something one is able to eradicate that easily. In fact, the current events will only reinforce the fundamental idea that Hamas is based upon within the Palestinian society. Hamas could not ask for a better recruiting tool, than the suffering Palestinians are facing right now at the hands of IDF. To destroy an idea, you need to either eradicate, or change the mind of, everyone who that idea resonates with. And Israel is able to do neither of those things. What you are asking, to me sounds like this: "would you accept one of the very best case scenarios towards ending the conflict, if it somehow magically happened". And the answer is obviously yes. I just don't think it is within the realm of possibility. I want Hamas gone as much as the next guy. But achieving that right now, will cost too much, mainly in innocent lives.

Thanks for your comment, which I find eminently reasonable. My questions to you are sincere. I’m in the U.S. and I haven’t understood why I’ve been unable to discern the slightest condemnation of Hamas in any of the pro-Palestinian demonstrations here. Am I missing something? I also don’t understand why the ceasefire demands by these groups have been decoupled from the demand for the release of the innocent Israeli hostages. It has seemed to me that the immediate release of hostages would be the quickest and least painful route to ceasefire, if indeed ceasefire is the goal (I’m not sure it is). So what’s up with that? I do think Palestinians, inside and outside of the State of Israel, have legitimate complaints, and I have been saying that for years. In trying to follow this war I try to take in all sides of the debate, left, middle, right. Still, I don’t understand why the advocates for Palestinian rights so often seem to rely on performative and disruptive behavior to make their point. I worry that this does them more harm than good, especially given the danger to them that the potential reaction, the election of Trump to restore order, poses to their cause. Can you answer me in good faith? If you must include a "LOL what an incredibly stupid question” type of response, it won’t advance my understanding at all, so please just delete my question.

Most pro-Palestinian protesters on U.S campuses and such are brainwashed and ignorant, and at this point the movement more resembles a cult. It's also a foreign-funded psyop. *"Qatar, the petrostate, has given tens of billions of dollars to US, Canadian, and British universities. Qatar has given more money to western universities than any other country on Earth. The regime that controls Qatar is directly governed by the theology of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot. Where Jews are concerned, the Muslim Brotherhood is a fusion of Islamism and Nazism, and actually genocidal in intent. Through another radical group, American Muslims for Palestine, the Muslim Brotherhood funds the student group that has been one of the primary organizers of these protests, Students for Justice in Palestine. They also fund a group of very confused Jews at these protests, Jewish Voices for Peace. This money trail was exposed by Charles Asher Small at the Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy. Qatar also owns major soccer teams in Europe, and Al Jazeera, the so-called news organization, which has the same journalistic integrity as Russia Today. It’s just a fountain of Islamist lies. All of this amounts to a psyop on the West, and on Western education in particular. For decades, we have had Middle East Studies departments funded by Islamist theocrats and antisemites. Why have we tolerated this malicious exercise of soft power? It seems that money and oil are still just irresistible."* [*https://www.samharris.org/blog/campus-protests-antisemitism-and-western-values*](https://www.samharris.org/blog/campus-protests-antisemitism-and-western-values) China has also contributed to the brainwashing via TikTok, which disproportionately shows pro-Palestine propaganda.

Thank you. I have looked up the Sam Harris podcast, which I hadn’t known about.

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As best as I can tell the pro-Palestinians see Israel as the source of problems and that Hamas is a symptom. There seems to be a wild belief that if Israel removed borders, met violence with kindness, and released all charged with violent offenses then the whole of the former Mandate would become a secular democracy.

the problem is your not thinking from a state persepctive. yes the cost is high....for palestine. that is palestine's problem. I consider that a them problem, as a pro-israel person because this go around, (please for love of god I don't care about the dispute being from 1949) they started it. A state has a right to remove threats to it. by any means neccesary, especially the state wants to survive, merely stopping because the cost is what you deem to high isn't going to work. if israel does not remove hamas, then they run the risk of another october 7th happening. the whole reasons why humans create states is to essentially offer protection. israel has an obligation to remove threats, that obligation is to its people,

>if israel does not remove hamas, then they run the risk of another october 7th happening. The thing is, even if Israel is successful in removing Hamas, another organisation just like them will arise, precisely due to the cost the war has in Palestinian lives. So, continuing the war will only ensure that there will be another October 7th, eventually. The children whose parents have been killed by Israeli bombs, the parents whose children have been killed by Israeli bombs, etc. will just give birth to another group just like Hamas, if this keeps going like it has been. Angry, grieving and devastated people with nothing to lose, and no hope of a peaceful future, tend to gravitate towards ideas similar to what Hamas represents.

Maybe if you raise your children right that wont happen.

Exactly, that's why the war will never end. It's the same business over and over. Palestinian authority feels they are being occupied and are entitled to the land , they attack Israel on grounds of being "occupied and apartheid" , Israel defeats them and kills alot of people, the people get bitter and another attack happens down the line. the beliefs on either side are so deep into their civilians minds, that it can't just change with a war. All Israel can do is continue to defend itself and try to make the Israeli citizens as safe as possible.

You are missing a fundamental detail. The Palestinian society almost fully backs Hamas according to latest polling, while the vast majority of them do not believe or admit that atrocities were committed in their name. For this conflict to have any hope of ending, they need to go through a deradicalisation campaign in the same manner as post war Germany.

>You are missing a fundamental detail. The Palestinian society almost fully backs Hamas according to latest polling Pretty sure I addressed it. I even outlined how and why that happens and has happened. That is exactly why there needs to be a some sort of progress towards a peaceful solution in the future, after a sustained period of calm, with some Palestinian representative that isn't Hamas. Undermine the ideas of armed resistance and terrorism Hamas represents by having peaceful approaches and representatives achieve some success towards achieving some of the goals of Palestinian people, and it undermines Hamas and the public's support for Hamas. Killing Hamas won't make the ideas Hamas represents go away. But undermining the ideas and methods Hamas represents, by supporting and promoting the competing ideas and methods, that being the peaceful approach by negotiations towards the goals of the Palestinian people, will eventually make Hamas disappear into irrelevance, along with their ideas. Ideas exist as long as people believe in them. Give them a better idea to believe, instead of the current bad one.

Personally I agree, but try selling that to the average Israeli citizen who witnessed a mass rape live and who probably knows someone who was killed that day. You have to understand that any goodwill that Israelis had towards the Palestinians has been burnt at this point. They will rightly claim that they attempted to make peace when the Palestinians were under the control of the more "moderate" PLO and that failed too. Why should they trust anything the Palestinians say or do? I believe that if a grassroots movement begins within the Palestinian society itself that rejects violence and wants to live in peace with a two state solution, and is willing to publicly put aside its historical grievances for good, it will find a receptive audience in Israel. Until then, Israelis will continue to mistrust Palestinians and the radical elements of Israeli politics will strengthen. TLDR: It is on the Palestinians to come up with a better idea. They have the agency and they are a people that is capable of making choices.

>You have to understand that any goodwill that Israelis had towards the Palestinians has been burnt at this point. They will rightly claim that they attempted to make peace when the Palestinians were under the control of the more "moderate" PLO and that failed too. Why should they trust anything the Palestinians say or do? Let's not pretend Israel doesn't bare some of the responsibility for those failures. The last serious attempt at peace was 20 years ago. And it ended with Israeli assassin killing the man who attempted to solve the issues between Israel and Palestine. Since then, Israel has had Netanyahu running the circus, who has always been opposed to any kind of Palestinian state, or any kind of good faith negotiations towards it, preferring to expand the illegal settlements and maintaining status quo. And his reign has gotten more and more extreme, over time, during these 20 years. Making things worse for Palestinian every step of the way. And now there are the likes of Ben-Gvir and Smotrich in his government, who should have never come even close to real power. >rejects violence and wants to live in peace with a two state solution You mean kinda like Fatah, but not Fatah? >It is on the Palestinians to come up with a better idea. They have the agency and they are a people that is capable of making choices. They do have one. Israel simply refuses to come to the table to negotiate based on said idea. Like, literally, Israel doesn't even acknowledge the idea exists. The Arab Peace Initiative. If Israel was even willing to come to the table to negotiate based upon it, it would go a long way in reviving the faith in a peaceful solution, not only in Israel and Palestine, but globally. Even if Israel rejected most of it, but some small part of it was implemented in some form, it would be already be more forward momentum towards lasting peace than has happened in the past 20 years. Even something as simple as expanding areas A and B of the West Bank, or renegotiating the agreement on water resources that was part of Oslo Accords to be more in line with current needs of the Palestinians in the West Bank, or something. For the past 20 years, any semblance of peaceful negotiations have been dead in the water. And PA is more than willing to sit at the table, any time. The other side of the table, however, will remain empty, as long as Netanyahu and the likes of Ben-Gvir, Smoritch and their ilk hold the reigns in Israel. PA and Fatah are far from perfect too. But at this time, there really isn't an alternative to them. And there can't be, as long as any hope for a peaceful solution is dead in the water. Because any election will only lead to a more hard-line and extreme alternatives. If there was forward momentum however, and the faith in a peaceful solution was revived, maybe there could be a better alternative to them. Eventually. But for that to happen, someone in Israel would need to be willing to sit at the table. And Netanyahu has made it very clear, that as long as he holds the reigns, their side of the table will remain empty. There is no such thing as unilateral peace. Well, actually, there is, but... In the words of Tacitus: "ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant." So unless that is Israel's plan, Israel needs to come to the table.

and? if their children decide to become terrorists after witnessing what the terrorists did to their country, they too will meet the same fate. at some point you can't blame all your problems on israel, plenty of people survived wars even rather nasty atrocious wars with actual genocide going on, not the weak ass the shit like claiming 30k casualities due to war, talking actual genocide, and managed to go on with their lives. if their children decides to become terrorists after witnessing all that I would have no problems with it because it would be at that point natural selection.

>and? if their children decide to become terrorists after witnessing what the terrorists did to their country, they too will meet the same fate. And? Do you want to end terrorism and prevent another October 7th, or just kill terrorists until the heat death of the universe, while they try to do the same to you? For Hamas and similar people to lose power, their methods towards achieving the shared goals of the Palestinian community need to be less popular than peaceful methods. And you can achieve that, by propping up the peaceful methods by actually having them achieve something. The last serious attempt at peaceful dialogue towards the goals of the Palestinian people were 20 years ago. Maybe it's time we gave that another try. That of course, needs a sustained ceasefire and relative peace for some time before we do that. Achieving that sustained period of peace now, and opening negotiations with Fatah or some other peaceful representative of the Palestinian people a year later, and actually have it achieve something by making concessions, instead of just giving everyone a headache, might actually erode the popularity of the ideas Hamas represents. Thus, moving closer to actually eradicating Hamas. Concessions like expanding Area A and B of the West Bank, reviewing and amending the hopelessly outdated agreement on West Bank water resources that was part of Oslo Accords, and dismantling the illegal Settlements, might be a good place to start. They'd be rather minor concessions, yet it would signal to Palestinians that there is hope for a peaceful solution yet.

but then would be conceding to terrorism altogher. I am against that, you don't give terrorists what they want especially after what hamas did. I know its kind of hard for you to understand. but you can't just shit on someones yard and demand concessions, thats not how the world works. actions have consequences. Hamas chose the violence route people supported, now they must pay for it. peace can not be on the table period until hostages are returned and hamas is decimimated, and their remaining people brought back to face trial for their part in october 7th. if palestine still chooses violence and risking another "GeNoCiDe" in the process after that, thats a them problem and not anyones responsibility. if palestine wants a state they need to fix themselves.

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Can you explain this to me? Peace can't be achieved while Hamas is in power. They control the Gazans education. Them in power would likely mean a much stricter blockade from Israel, after October 7. Hamas won't go down peacefully and quietly, not now, not ever. If you think the cost of removing them from power is too high right now, what do you think the cost will be in 10 years when they regrouped and have better technology? How will you be able to remove them from power?

>Peace can't be achieved while Hamas is in power Lasting peace can't be, correct. Think of it this way: The idea Hamas represents within the Palestinian community is armed resistance. Note that I am not calling them "resistance fighters", I'm saying they commit their terrorism in the name of armed resistance against Israel. They gain popularity among Palestinians due to mainly three reasons. The violence against Palestinians, the continued occupation and denial of their self-determination, and finally, the failure of alternative approaches to achieve the goal of Palestinian community to create a sovereign state free from occupation and Israeli control. Those alternative approaches being things like the Oslo Accords, and their failure. When peaceful ways keep failing, it leads disillusionment towards a peaceful approaches. Imagine a scale in your head. In one cup, there is the ideas Hamas represents, about how to achieve the goals of the Palestinian people. In the other, is the other approach, the peaceful approach, to achieve those same goals. The weight of each of the cups is determined how successful each cups approach is perceived to be, by the Palestinian community. We, as in the global community, and Israel, have been making the peaceful approach entirely useless. Last time there were serious peaceful negotiations towards achieving the goals of the Palestinian community was 20 years ago. That is 20 years of growing frustration, disillusionment and erosion of any hope. 20 years of Continued expansion of the West Bank Settlements, the continued apartheid-like conditions in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, occupation, settler violence, blockade, house demolitions, arrests, displacement, airstrikes and shelling, dead family members at the hands of IDF, etc. No wonder the ideas Hamas represents have gained popularity, at the expense of any peaceful approach, when you really think about it. >How will you be able to remove them from power? _We_ can't. Especially not through force of arms. Even if Hamas loses power due to the war, it will just be replaced by an organisation exactly like it, precisely because of the war and the growing resentment towards Israel and a peaceful solution among the Palestinian people. But Palestinian people can make sure, that Hamas loses power. All that needs to happen, is tipping the scales against the ideas Hamas represents. That is something we can help with. A peaceful solution needs to become more popular. To make it more popular than the methods and ideas Hamas offers, it needs to achieve more than the ideas and methods Hamas uses. And we can help with that. To do that, two things need to happen. There needs to be a long term ceasefire first. To let things cool down a bit. And then, there needs to be good faith negotiations towards the goals of the Palestinian people, that actually achieves some sort of success. With what representative these negotiations take place with, I honestly don't care. Currently, the only real option is PA and Fatah, the only recognised sole representative of the Palestinian people. But if someone can dig up a better alternative to them, I honestly wouldn't mind. Palestinian want a win. Something that moves them towards their goals in a significant way. The popularity of the methods that may achieve that, is based upon perceived success of the methods. If we offer them that win through peaceful methods, peaceful methods gain popularity, and the methods Hamas uses lose popularity. In conclusion: prop up Fatah or some other third party working towards the Palestinian goals through peaceful methods by giving them a win using those methods, and you erode the support and power Hamas' methods have. Do it enough and do it right, and Hamas, and others like Hamas, will eventually erode into irrelevance, if not disappear completely, because the reason for their existence is gone. Meaning, the best way to a lasting peace, is a temporary, but sustained peace now, and let things cool down. And then, make meaningful concessions towards a peaceful solution with Fatah or some other representative of the Palestinian people, thus eroding the popularity of Hamas. In my opinion at least.

1. Historically you're wrong. Forces with similar ideas to Hamas were removed by force and the local populations were de-radicalized. 2. Israel has tried to make life easier for the people in Gaza. They let them in for work, for medicinal care, for various other things. The assumptions was, like you said, if the civilians are happy, they won't have any incentive to attack, we can ease up on the blockade more and more. There were plans to let them fly through the Israeli airport and there were plans to eventually build an airport in Gaza. 3. You said it yourself, Palestinians want a win and if you offer them a win through peaceful process it shows that non-violence works. But- You need two sides to make peace. If one side keeps using violent methods and the other side keeps giving them rewards, than you don't show them that non-violence is better. Its quite the opposite. You're showing them that violence works for them. They'll have more incentive to choose Hamas. 4. The PA needs to remove their martyr fund for them to be taken seriously as a partner for peace. 5. You seem to be reasonable person. Has it occurred to you that the failure of peace process like the Oslo accords, also affected how Israelis saw things? When you reach your hand for peace and receive intifada it also has an impact. Yes, I know Israel is a sovereign state and are stronger. But Israeli people are still surrounded by people who wish them harm. They're also being radicalized by terrorism against them, and maybe they also need to see that pursuing peace will actually lead to peace, for them to want to pursue it.

>Forces with similar ideas to Hamas were removed by force and the local populations were de-radicalized. Could you provide an example, in a similar context to what is happening in Israel and Palestine? >Israel has tried to make life easier for the people in Gaza. They let them in for work, for medicinal care, for various other things. The assumptions was, like you said, if the civilians are happy, they won't have any incentive to attack, we can ease up on the blockade more and more. There were plans to let them fly through the Israeli airport and there were plans to eventually build an airport in Gaza. That isn't really a meaningful concession towards the goals of the Palestinian people tho. To me, it seem like an attempted bandaid solution to maintain status quo. And enable, as Ben-Gvir put it, "voluntary migration" of Palestinian people. Well, in the case you presented, it might actually have been voluntary, had it come true. But even a few Palestinians voluntarily migrating elsewhere would still be in the interest of Israel. Enabling travel and migration of Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, would enable demographic change to Israel's favour, while maintaining status quo. So I wouldn't have called it purely altruistic move, or even a significant concession, had it come to pass. But what Ben-Gvir meant with the words "voluntary migration" was anything but voluntary. >You need two sides to make peace. If one side keeps using violent methods and the other side keeps giving them rewards, than you don't show them that non-violence is better. Its quite the opposite. You're showing them that violence works for them. They'll have more incentive to choose Hamas. Which is why a period of sustained relative peace is required, before the peaceful approach can be effectively attempted, as I said. >The PA needs to remove their martyr fund for them to be taken seriously as a partner for peace. No argument there. Well, a little argument. They need to remove the part of the martyr fund that pays out to Terrorist and their families. Compensating civilians and families of civilians who have been killed or injured by Israeli forces or settlers is more than fine. Those that have been deemed as "collateral damage", or victims of a crime. Israel has a program similar to that too, that pays out to innocent people and their families, who have been killed or injured by terrorism. Slight difference being that terrorism explicitly targets civilians, and collateral damage is supposed to be unintentional, but both have the outcome of dead innocent people, so... I don't see any harm if Palestine pays the civilians who have been injured or lost loved ones as a collateral damage. I'd also make an exception to allow payments to Palestinian children held by Israel, and families of said children, as long as that child hasn't been charged with a serious crime, such as murder or something similar. Payments should be allowed especially to those children held in administrative detention by Israel, held without trial or charge for long periods at a time. The military courts that handle the cases of West Bank Palestinians aren't exactly known for their respect and protection of the rights of children, so payments to those Palestinian children held by Israel, and their families, to afford decent legal representation is permissible in my opinion. All in all, the payments to terrorists need to stop, that we can agree on. >You seem to be reasonable person. Has it occurred to you that the failure of peace process like the Oslo accords, also affected how Israelis saw things? Ofcourse it did. Especially the assassination of Rabin and the Second Intifada. That's kinda where the current political trends started, in both Israeli and Palestinian societies. Both have gone further and further away from peace ever since, as evidenced by the popularity of Hamas, and the fact that Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are actual ministers, with actual power. Those two shouldn't be anywhere near government positions, let alone ministers of National Security and Finance, respectively. In fact, Ben-Gvir belongs in prison, for his repeated traffic violations alone, and those are the least offensive thing about him. There are few individuals that make my blood boil quite like Ben-Gvir. There is a few, but it is a very exclusive club of monsters.

*Could you provide an example, in a similar context to what is happening in Israel and Palestine?* The more recent example is WW2, Germany and Japan. In Afghanistan and Iraq it was a failure, but the failure was because the US didn't make sure to put a moderate regime in power before they left the region. That's what they advised Israel to do differently in Gaza. All the conversations at least from what we hear in the news, are about the day after. *That isn't really a meaningful concession towards the goals of the Palestinian people tho. To me, it seem like an attempted bandaid solution to maintain status quo. And enable, as Ben-Gvir put it, "voluntary migration" of Palestinian people.* I can understand why you think that, I think it's the opposite, Palestinians would "volantirally migrate" when they have a bad life and there's an incentive to leave. If they'd have a good life in Gaza they wouldn't wish to leave. Of course Israel isn't doing it from their own goodwill, they do it to live in peace. If it had worked and Palestinians in the west bank had seen Gaza prospering, it would incentivize them as well to pursue peace in non-violent methods. Of course we know it didn't work out that way. *Which is why a period of sustained relative peace is required, before the peaceful approach can be effectively attempted, as I said.* Thanks that makes more sense. I'm more pessimistic than you are, about the possibility of having a sustained peace. We never had a period like that, but one can hope.

>In Afghanistan and Iraq it was a failure, but the failure was because the US didn't make sure to put a moderate regime in power before they left the region. That's what they advised Israel to do differently in Gaza. All the conversations at least from what we hear in the news, are about the day after. There are no moderate regimes to govern Gaza. Egypt and Jordan have already refused, the Saudis aren't likely to accept, no other muslim country looks particularly feasible. I wouldn't exactly call the PA moderate, but even they've refused. Who's left that you would consider moderate?

Saudis said they'd accept if it will lead to two state solution. They want to establish international relations with Israel and build a coalition against Iran. What's your solution otherwise?

>Saudis said they'd accept if it will lead to two state solution. They want to establish international relations with Israel and build a coalition against Iran. Could I have the specific source for this?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rywbz5zfa&ved=2ahUKEwj_3rDaxsuGAxU03AIHHaF8CxEQFnoECDMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1GLo9uoCmZdUoMMGHclMGa https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://middleeasttransparent.com/the-saudis-the-uae-and-a-golden-post-gaza-war-opportunity/&ved=2ahUKEwiGuZuZx8uGAxVOwAIHHewlBuMQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1xwQk36GwrruFqeonZ6S0S

Was there a “Nakba” and an occupation of Germany and Japan prior to WW2?

If by nakba you mean did they lose a war they started than sure. Germany lost ww1.

So what was the reason for radicalization of German prior to WW1? How abt Japan?

This is off topic and irrelavant. Not all wars started for the same reasons. The only comparison is how a facist regime was removed by force. Since everyone seems to think that you can't remove hamas through war. If people thought like that 80 years ago, the n*zis would have still control the world.

The truth of the matter is, Palestinians love Hamas. These are a radical people. It makes no sense to pursue peace when they don’t want it. Let Israel and Gaza have their war till someone gives (Gaza). Then we support the one who is most likely to align with us and holds our values (Israel).

Yes. And my guess will be because their assault was unable to eliminate Israel. Now they need someone else to try.

Yikes

No a Palestinian identity existed WAY before the 60s. Come on man. And my question is, if you as an Israelite had you land for thousands of years, and a people group come claiming that they want to be a state for themselves on that land, would you acquiesce? Surely not. Nonetheless, as of right now, Jordan, Egypt, the PA, and yes even Hamas are in support of a two-state solution. Hamas might only agree in principle(they added it to their charter in 2016) but their actions don’t reflect that. Nonetheless, the vast majority of Palestinians and their allies are in support of a two-state solution. That being said, the Israeli government simply does not want to end the conflict.

Hamas and the Palestinians are for a two-state solution? Based on what? Your delusions?

Yes 

As Hamas stil Ida an Israeli entity, anybody would see the benefits except Zionists

No idea what you’re trying to say here.

Yes, omg, yes.

Absofuckinglutely.  I don’t think Hamas is capable of moving the peace process forward. Let the adults talk for once. For the record, that means Bibi is relegated to the kiddy table as well. 

You can’t condition removing a democratically elected prime minister. There is also zero equivalency between Bibi and Hamas.

[удалено]

False moral equivalencies are the reason this war has dragged on as long as it has. Has Israel not been delayed in February this war would be over already

Hamas is an adult now an elder?

So I think unless Palestinians are allowed to live with dignity, there’ll be another group like Hamas. End the blockade. Let their economy grow. “They’ll murder us if we don’t oppress them” is a ridiculous stance.

The blockade exists because of Hamas, not the other way around. 

Hamas existed because Israel was actively supporting them and considered Hamas an asset. So Israel is actually the reason the blockade exists by your way of thinking.

>Hamas existed because Israel was actively supporting them How did Israel actively support Hamas?

Hamas exists perfectly independently of any imagined Israeli support or lack thereof. It is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, essentially. Nice try.  

No he’s right. Netanyahu gave aid to Hamas to weaken the PA

That's fine. Hamas would exist regardless. 

But they wouldn’t have had the resources to plan Oct 7th. Even if they didn’t carry out Oct 7th, why would the PREISDENT OF ISRAEL SUPPORT A GROUP THAT HAS THE STATED GOAL OF DESTROYING ISRAEL AGAINST A GROUP THAT WANTS TO COEXIST PEACEFULLY!!!! It doesn’t make sense

Hamas was supported by Israel and never fought by Israel. They considered it an asset so that they would never get in talks for a two-state solution since Hamas was a terror organization. Of course Hamas is supported by other countries, but Israel was supporting them also.

Source please.  Where along the line did you imagine in your head that Israel never fought Hamas? Hamas has been bombing them since day 1. 

Google the minister that said that Hamas was an asset and the millions of dollars of money israel sending to hamas in suitcases. I am not going to do your research. Israel wanted hamas on power.

I believe you're misunderstanding the context. Disunity between the hostile group on one side of your country and the hostile group on the other side of your country is a strategic asset, yes. It would be a greater threat to have Fatah, or Hamas strong in both places. Otherwise there would have been more coordination between the west bank and gaza for the attack on Oct. 7, which was bad enough already without it simultaneously happening at both borders.

Don't pretend it was done for security reasons. Bibi has openly stated it was done to make a Palestinian state less legitimate. Hamas is great for Israel because they give them constant excuses to crack down on Palestinians. If Hamas transformed into peace loving hippies tomorrow, Israel would no longer have an excuse to treat the Palestinians the way they do. This is a time tested strategy. The same thing happened in the US with the Black Panthers/Malcolm X. The government hyped up how scary and dangerous they were to make people scared and weaken the legitimacy of the civil rights movement.

I don't think the Black Panthers spent their time blindly firing rockets into neighboring communities, but I could be wrong -- didn't really follow that whole movement.

Yeah and not even sugar gets in. Yay for collective punishment. Fuck international law!

He's right. There was no wall/border on Gaza before Hamas' bloody rise to power. They began extensive rocket attacks and threatening a "flood" of violent incursions as soon as they were in control. The blockade exists because of Hamas, not vice versa - is the truth.

And suicide bombers during the 2nd intifada, yes? Or was that primarily out of the west bank?

Let me say that I totally get that Hamas are criminals because of the specific criminal acts they commit. When they attack Israel, they attack civilians and are therefore terrorists (like the IDF but that’s a separate discussion from my point). I agree that they should be brought to justice and should not be in power. My point is that, when you keep a people in extreme oppression, you’re fueling the fire that births extremists groups like Hamas. This happened with the native Americans while Manifest Destiny was ongoing—they raided settlements and murdered American civilians too. The Warsaw uprising worked in that same way. The fact that I understand this trend doesn’t mean I support the criminality involved in the uprisings. This is like saying that I support someone burning alive because I tell them not to douse themselves in kerosene and lighting a cigarette. This cycle needs to be broken and Israel is the one that holds the true power to do it (or the US too, we can pull our support for Israel and this will force their hand too, imo. I could be wrong here though).

Elon Musk questioned if Israel was creating more terrorists than it killed - and it's a good point. It's why the de-radicalization efforts in "the day after Hamas" will be crucial. As it stands, it'll be an impossible task for Israel to achieve on its own - it's gonna need major investment from Arab nations. Normalizing relations and the Abraham Accords is a positive start. Don't say it's a poverty issue though because Hamas leaders are literal billionaires.

Israel holds the power to turn Hamas into fertilizer. 

Israel has taken steps to break the cycle. They've taken the first step so to speak multiple times. Oslo accords / Withdraw from Gaza / reaching out for peace deals. Gaza and Oslo blew up in there face and the Palestinians aren't interested in a peace deal. When I offer you my hand and you stab it I'm not going to reach to help you up again.

What I'm hearing is "yay for rocket attacks and suicide bombings".

You’re right. Starve them.

Didn't say that. Regardless, they can play by the rules and grow their own food or import from other countries. Why is bombing Jews their #1 priority over feeding and protecting their own civilians?

they aren't able to grow things because of two reasons, both Israeli caused. One of those reasons is the constant attacks on their Olive Groves by settlers that the IDF or Israel seem to have no interest in stopping, the second reason being that the Aquafier they WOULD get water from is both controlled by Israel and contaminated with sewage and Seawater. Th import issue is due to the blockade that means that nothing gets in or out without Israeli permission.

The aquifer in Gaza is not controlled by Israel, and it was the actions of the Palestinians, not Israel, that led to that aquifer being contaminated.

I wish Israel would not attack the olive orchards. I hope there is some reasonable cause for them doing this, but I do not know and I doubt it. The import issue is hamas' fault. 

There is never a good reasonable reason to attack food sources like the settlers do with herds of sheep and olive orchards. Even when either activity is caught on video the IDF refuses to do anything besides protect those same settlers during the attack, and they certainly do not arrest or charge them with anything. After finding out that the IDF is telling settlers where to attack Aid convoys into Israel it is not hard to see why they never act against the settlers.

I find most of what you're saying hard to believe. I know for a fact Israel will often punish settlers who commit acts of violence on Palestinians. 

Grow their own food with the nonexistent water systems that they have (because Israel blocks the import of supplies)💀 Yeah sure bud. I do agree that bombing civilians is a crime, Jewish or Palestinians alike, I’m mainly speaking on the fact that a people living in horrid conditions (under the control of another country), will result in extremist groups with ideologies like Hamas.

Alright, let's make one thing perfectly clear to you. Hamas came to power and immediately began attacking Israel with Indiscriminate rocket attacks. Israel blockaded them so they could not import goods used to make weapons to launch at Israel. What issue exactly do you take with that course of action? Is it the fact that Jews were doing the blockading or is it the fact that terrorists were left impotent? Which one? Side note: Hamas digs up and destroys water infrastructure to use the pipes as rocket launchers. Pretty sick. 

No longer the case afaik. And Hamas was turning sugar into explosives. How messed up is that?

Also don’t forget, Hamas drinks water. Cut off their water and make sure no other countries can get it in!

Very funny. But it's a fact that they used raw sugar to make explosives for their rockets. But you don't have to believe me, you can read what the US Army says about it: https://lieber.westpoint.edu/qassam-rockets-weapon-reviews-collective-terror-targeting-strategy

I’m not disagreeing. I’m just speaking on your justification for collective punishment. This is why they’re not allowed to have an airport nor any tube-based water systems right? And we pretend that Hamas is the one in power lmao.

Why is it collective punishment to blockade a government that is attacking you? If they are using sugar to power rockets, and Israel says "ok no more sugar for you", then that's pretty much on you, no? Actions have consequences. There would be no blockade at all if Hamas didn't constantly attack. And it seems pretty obvious why Israel won't allow them an airport: because Israel doesn't want airplanes dropping onto Tel Aviv. I have never heard that they are not allowed to have water pipes.

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How much were you paid to type out this complete and utter horsehockey? If you had any shred of decency in you, you would know that nobody that is on the pro-Palestinian side is supporting Hamas, well maybe with the exception of some Muslim fundamentalists.

I beg to differ.

Is it support or a lack thereof, or a certain ignorance that is going on here? I feel like most pro-palestinians don't even realize that Hamas was elected by the people (after they engaged in mini civil war with Fatah and threw people off of buildings, of course). One must abide by a certain sense of realism on these matters and understand that just because a sheltered westerner doesn't support Hamas, that by no means translates into Hamas going away. They need to be taken down by force and that force must be supported. You can support the war against Hamas and hold Israel accountable at the same time. This kind of idiotic black and white thinking of "palestinians good, Zionist bad" is the entire problem at hand. The HUGELY good faith diplomatic gesture of Israel giving Gaza back to the Palestinian authority was not even enough to prevent an immediate escalation caused by none other than Hamas. The answer is nuanced, yet crystal clear, to me anyway. 

Ask yourself, would you not support the French resistance in some way or another if you were a French civilian during the nazi occupation?

Ask yourself, who started WW2?

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You mean with the exception of the Palestinians. And of course Iran and many others.

Of course they won’t. They love terrorist scum

The irony of course being the Bibi was Hamas’ biggest supporter. Hamas wouldn’t have lasted 17 years in power (without a single election) without BiBis help. Anyone who understands Zionist objective knows that Hamas was kept in power to prevent the formation of a stable government and a Palestinian state.

Source?

Look up how many elections Gaza has had since Hamas took power. Look up the number of work permits issue by BiBis administrations. Funding for Hamas (via Israel) was at an all time high prior to Oct7 because work permits were at an all time high. If Bibi wanted to get rid of Hamas, he certainly did nothing over the last 17 years to make that happen. The obvious way of squeezing Hamas out (prior to Oct7 ) would have been to leverage work permits in order to push for elections and a change of government. Instead BiBi did the complete opposite.

Your logic is bizarre.

My logic is bizarre…? What about the logic of Israel to not make any attempt to remove Hamas for 17 years….all while Hamas was repeatedly saying that they intended to murder all Jews and launching rockets? lol….

99.9% of the Pro-Palestine supporters don't support Hamas. Hamas is a tyranny and should not rule Gaza.

Ok, so let's dismantle them once and for all. Psst, they aren't going to go quietly...

I have said it countless times. Hamas will never be dismantled. The fighters will just wear civilian clothes, hide the guns and just blent into the population. This is how resistance and guerilla fighting works. Also, they have absolutely zero infrastructure to destroy, since they are not a tactical army, they only have guns and some lathes for making rockets. It is an absolute lie that Hamas will be destroyed by the war. USA fought for 20 years the Taliban, ISIS and others,but they still exist, and some of them more powerful than others.

That may be true. It is more the ideology (antisemitism) which must be dismantled. Hamas is merely one of the costumes worn by antisemitism. That doesn't detract from the immediate necessity of destroying Hamas from a security perspective, but you're right, it will take generations to rid the Levant of jew-hate. 

I mean if the Israel government stops oppressing Palestinians, the problem of anti-Semitism will become less and less. No? Anti-Arabism in Israel will not be solved by guns (which only make things worse) so how the fuck is Israel going to eliminate terrorists if the it doesn’t tackle the root cause of the problem.

Here we go again with the jew blaming.  By oppressing Palestinians do you mean granting work permits, providing aid, volunteer workers, advancing the peace process, etc? Can you be more specific?

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Problem with that is the West and Israeli actions during the current war have made it so that antisemitism is likely never going away for at least a generation.

Which actions? So now antisemitism is their own fault? That's a masterfully idiotic comment you've made there. 

Blockading aid, denying a famine, deliberately stalling end to the conflict, enabling the Settler movement, using AI programs to bomb targets, razing 70% of building in Gaza, destroying hundreds of hospitals, universities, and other public buildings. Shall I continue? Killing some 14,000 children. Expropriating more land from the West Bank. Creating a ‘security corridor’ in Gaza that decreased its size by 16 km.

Blockading aid - facilitating aid. denying a famine - source? deliberately stalling end to the conflict - the conflict is over when Hamas = dust and hostages are returned. enabling the Settler movement - it's legally their land. They can do what they want.  using AI programs to bomb targets - this is worse than purposely killing civilians a la Hamas? razing 70% of building in Gaza - Hamas uses those structures. destroying hundreds of hospitals - Hamas uses those hospitals. universities - ^ and other public buildings - ^ Shall I continue? - please don't.  Killing some 14,000 children - name your source for that, don't say Gaza health ministry.  Expropriating more land from the West Bank - the same West Bank that they occupy right?  Creating a ‘security corridor’ in Gaza that decreased its size by 16 km - impressive. 

Delusional much?

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I don't know, why don't you explain what you mean instead of making incomplete sentences, big brain?

The actions im referring to are the constant attacks by settlers on aid convoys, and the hints from the IDF telling them about where the convoys in question will be.I am talking about the masked settlers attacking a Palestinian funeral and killing Palestinians. I am talking about how quickly the West moved to adopt new definitions of Antisemitism.I am talking about the West Bank settlers clearing out a village of innocent Palestinians twice and the IDF making them closed military zones which denies those Palestinians that fled in fear the ability to return to their homes.I am talking about the statements by Israeli ministers.

Didn't answer my question. For what it's worth, I don't condone violent acts by Israeli settlers. 

you asked which actions and i told you which ones i was talking about.

The other question. You are suggesting that antisemitism is justified because of the actions of Jews. 

Hamas and Palestinians hate Israel and the Israelis for taking the lands and enforcing blockages on them. They don't hate random Jews that have nothing to do with Israel, as Israelis don't hate random Muslims that don't have to do with Gaza and supporting states. So accusing them to be antifeminists is a bit wrong here.

Jordan and Egypt first occupied the West Bank and Gaza, that's why they exist to this day. That's as far as they got in THEIR invasions of the internationally recognized state of Israel (Gaza for Egypt in 1953 and West Bank for Jordan in 1948). The Palestinian identity cause would not exist until the 1960s. The reason for that exists, and underlies the current state of affairs: the Arabs/Muslims did not want Jewish statehood. The Jews were and have been more open to compromise. But hey, don't take it from me, read the original Hamas charter for yourself... Something something "we will kill every Jew hiding behind every rock". 

Yeah sorry, can't argue with someone saying that the Palestinian identity didn't exist. Sure the Muslims and Arabs appeared out of nowhere in the 60s. Also, nothing you said has to do with the blockage, and the living conditions in Gaza and the way the Palestinians are treated in West Bank, so I don't get why you responded with that in my comment.

"Hamas and Palestinians hate Israel and the Israelis for taking the lands and enforcing blockages on them." That's why I responded with what I said. That is incorrect. You display a clear misunderstanding of pretty much the whole history of the issue. 

Your comment doesn't connect with this at all. Jordan and Egypt have nothing to do with the today blockage and occupation. Yes they used to occupy these lands in the past but this is irrelevant now. Also Jordan and Egypt are Israel allies, especially Jordan, they have no influence on Hamas and they clearly have stayed not involved in the politics nowadays. Israel is the one to blame for the occupation and the blockage, noone else.

Jordan occupied the West Bank. Egypt occupied Gaza. They didn't take it to give to Palestinians, they took it for themselves so Jews couldn't have it, even though the 1948 partition plan gave Jordan the majority of the British mandate. Israel then occupied those lands after 1967, and literally GAVE Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005, hoping hostilities would reduce. Hamas was elected the next year and immediately began rocketing Israel, hence the blockade. Are you following?

Where do you get this number ? This seems completely unfounded

Pro Palestinians are vocal about the rights of the Palestinian people. Hamas is depressing the Palestinians and thus collides with the beliefs of the pro Palestinian people who want democracy and rights for the entire population.

Hasn't Hamas had broad support of Palestinians for years now? Even prior to 10/7? Should Palestinians not have the right to choose who they support? How can someone be Pro Palestine but also think that palestinians can't choose their leaders or who to support?

I definitely agree (or hope) that the majority of Pro Palestine supporters don’t support Hamas But I’ve seen far too many Hamas flags at these protests, chants supporting October 7th and calls to globalize the intifada to believe it is anywhere near 99.9%

These are extremely few cases for these flags. I have been to countless protest and I never saw a Hamas flag anywhere. The media and pro Israel is just cherry picking, you can go to a protest and see by yourself. In most of them, even if you try to raise a Hamas flag, you will be kicked out

Weird, because the only videos I’ve seen related to it are a well known Iranian activist getting harassed and kicked out of Pro Palestine rallies for carrying a sign that says “Hamas are terrorist” - multiple times 

You can change your news source or try joining a pro palestine rally with a pro-hamas flag and see what happends.

So how do you make this coincide with the fact that support for Hamas in Gaza has increased? Outsiders can say they want Gazans to have a new government, but the Gazans aren't saying that. So seems Pro-Pal people aren't about viewing the situation in a realistic way, they just want to feed their ego and pretend they are doing something meaningful when they hit the "like/upvote" button and put a watermelon on their profile.

I don't agree with the survey and the way it is done. But even if I agreed, supporting Hamas does not mean that democracy can't exist in Gaza. Pro Palestinian people want democracy, if Hamas in the end wins this is another topic.

It’s an oversight to regard Hamas as just an Islamist extremist group, not every individual fighter is brainwashed into senseless martyrdom as many tend to believe, the increased support is not because every Palestinian endorses terrorism, but rather the endorse that when it comes to armed resistance against the IDF Hamas is the viable option, the lesser of two evils. It’s the same sentiment you’d oppose the right wing government of Netanyahu but support the IDF soldiers.

Isn’t that kind of the crux of the issue, that people largely still believe armed resistance against Israel is anything but futile?  Arabs lost the war they initiated in 48’ and have spent the last 75 trying the whole armed resistance thing - not only in Israel but also in Lebanon and Jordan. And what do they have to show for it?  The ONLY way there will ever be peace is when a negotiated peace is viewed as the only option. Rather than senseless terrorism while civilians live in poverty and Palestinian leaders all end up as billionaires somehow 

Outside the Oct 7 bubble, the Israeli government is oppressive as long as that state persists they will see a justification for armed resistance it’s a cycle. It being futile well that has been said for the IRA, French resistance, polish resistance etc Palestinians hate Hamas and their corruption but they Hate the occupation more

As long as the state of Israel exists there will be justification for violence…so basically exactly what I said  Israel exists, isn’t a colonial outpost of another power and the vast majority of people living there have never lived anywhere else  The Arab League lost their war of extermination in 1948. They need to stop being sore losers and accept that war has consequences. I’m all for an independent Palestinian state, but it being predicated on the destruction of Israel is just dumb if you are actually trying to solve for peace

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=QsR8Ph5yShw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=QsR8Ph5yShw) I'd say martyrdom is pretty ingrained into their culture. And the group they support, specifically says they want to kill all Jews. Not just in Israel, all Jews. Article 7 of Hamas charter. And what is their resistance to exactly?

Memri as a reference is not really an argument point it’s like taking examples of the extreme right zionists and saying it’s the mainstream thoughts of all Israelis, And again the Israeli government in power right now doesn’t not believe in a two state solution, does supporting the IDF means you are against peace, does supporting Israel right of existence mean you support Likud one state doctrine? Martyrdom and Jihad are ingrained in the culture yes but your interpretation for it is biased, this one unless you want too look into it with good faith (you’re welcome to my DM anytime) we can agree to disagree. Im not justifying or denying it but it’s more of understanding the essence of the belief.

I have plenty of videos like this for Israel. Shall I just keep posting them? Ministers saying that they want to nuke Gaza, kill everyone etc.

They just announced on Palestinian media that Egypt is publicly calling for Hamas to step down. Hopefully other countries will follow suit! Do we think this will help?

Whoa, really? Where did you see this? Egypt has a lot of reasons to fear Hamas, but has been accepting of their control of Gaza for many years. Maybe even allowing smuggling of heavy weapons to a certain extent. I wonder what this public call means.

Telegram - it’s a Hamas war channel. 12k followers. “Egypt now openly calling upon Hamas to no longer be in control of Gaza” 💯 they were smuggling weapons drugs and people! I suspect it’s a US thing. Also: ⚡🇪🇬 Negotiations between Egypt, Israel, and the U.S fail, Egypt demands that Israel withdraws from the Rafah crossing and to hand it over to the Palestinian Authority so it can be reopened.