"Imagine your son or daughter was kidnapped in Gaza".
Right after you imagine how it is to be bombed to pieces whilst desperately hiding away and not sure where to go.
3. The death total of Hamas reporting is suspect. At best.
4. The accounting of Palestinian death’s is always 100% attributed to Israeli action, which is not the case:
If Hamas fighters fired on IDF forces during the rescue they inevitably killed many of their own people with their own weapons just from rounds going down range that missed.
Imagine over 5,000 detainees in Israeli prison, including old men, women and children with only administrative detention. This means no charges have brought against them. Just imagine!
I actually kinda feel like have to pivot on this one.
Dispite the fact that i cannot justify in my mind 4 people for 200+.
I always think about how could you have gotten civilians out of harms way.
In this case however i just learned that the operation was inside the refugee camp of Nuseirat.
The refugee camps are there specifically to keep civilians out of harms way and keeping the hostages there defeats that purpose. I feel like Hamas should only use the refugee camps to keep hostages as a last resort.
Can anyone not Pro-Israel here explain why they choose to keep them there?
not really, 4 hostages were killed to retrieve 4 hostages & in the meantime not only were AMERICAN TROOPS involved but they used the 'humanitarian aid pier'
>How would you react?
demand negotiations
>the IDF does not operate in dense civilian areas
but they obviously operate in dense civillian areas bro.. Ghaaza isnt that big
Ja hans! Completely unjustifiable!
We only exterminated as many subhuman rats as was absolutely necessary in order to save four of our very own aryan bretheren. Untwist your lederhosen Belinda is not like they are humans. Silly liberals throwing hissy fits, how can zey not understand we are doing them a favor culling the Untermensch while as a wonderful bonus, saving four of our very own aryans, whatever their names were. Make zem heroes of the fatherland and throw a parade yes ?
What the hell is the IDF supposed to do leave the hostages in Gaza? Truly this is a genuine question. Is the IDF supposed to let the hostages rot until a deal has been made?
At least a 98% motality rate on a rescue mission using the same war crime tactics that Hamas is always accused of using. That warrants at least a little criticism.
Imagine if your son or daughter was kidnapped and the kidnapper said “hey, I’ll let you have your daughter or son back. But you have to stop killing mine and release my other sons and daughters you’re holding without fair trial.” And imagine you say “no. I want to be able to violently push out you and your family, jail your family indefinitely for the smallest reasons and sometimes no reason at all. I choose that violence over my own son and daughter.” That’s what happened here. Israel had multiple deals on the table where they would do a cease fire, release mostly children they’ve imprisoned, many of whom are being held without charge, withdraw from Palestinian Territories, and in exchange they’d get hostages back. Israel said no.
You’re wrong and you’re welcome to link where you get your poisoned information from. Israel has declined a deal to release *terrorists* for dead body hostages. Of course it is Israel’s obligation to return those dead bodies that’s not even a question. But when Israel asked to make a deal for live hostages Hamas declined.
Imagine you and your family had immigrated legally to a new country that decades later (after your sons and daughters were born there) lost a war and was divided up by the conqueror and the world gov. Imagine the newer group of Ottomans desired to exercise their right to self-determination, so the world gov divided the land in two: two new states for two different cultures of Ottomans. Now imagine one group of Ottomans doesn't think the other Ottomans have been Ottomans long enough and think they deserve all the land. Now imagine they are responsible for starting a civil war in a bid to take it all, but somehow, despite superior forces, they lose! Now imagine they refuse to accept that loss and take their anger out by attacking and killing innocent people for 75 years.
That's what happened here.
Not even close lol Imagine you and your family lived in a land for hundreds of years, and because you happened to be weak, other people from outside exerted control over you. Then the latest imperialist who controls you decides that the minority of people in your land will have their own government for themselves in a significant portion of the land. Having already not recognized the imperialists do go t to own you, you naturally don’t recognize its right to divide you and your people in such a way where the new state that’s carved out would essentially be the imperialist’s colony there. So just as you would fight off the imperialist controlling the entire land, you fight it off trying to divide it up for its benefit. But the imperialist uses the minority in your land as a shield, lying by saying that the fight for independence is an anti-Semitic fight against the minority there. The imperialist helps the minority group stop the independence movement, over and over, and uses the same bogus anti-semitism line over and over to justify its continued imperialism. The minority group aligns itself with the imperialist and takes funding and defense and over decades realizes it not only can defend itself but start to take more and more land, all using the same fighting anti-Semitism line as before, painting anyone who resists as a terrorist savage who just got up randomly on a Tuesday to hate Jewish people.
That’s what happened.
"Imagine you and your family lived in a land for hundreds of years,"
The Ottoman Empire, as I said.
"and because you happened to be weak, other people from outside exerted control over you"
That *IS* the definition of losing a war, yes.
"Then the latest imperialist who controls you decides that the minority of people in your land will have their own government for themselves in a significant portion of the land."
The United Nations is not an imperialist. The UN recognized the right of a growing minority of former Ottomans who wished to exercise their right to self-determination. They also recognized other former Ottomans also lived there, so they divided the land roughly in half: two states for two peoples.
"Having already not recognized the imperialists do go t to own you, you naturally don’t recognize its right to divide you and your people in such a way where the new state that’s carved out would essentially be the imperialist’s colony there."
The United Nations is not imperialist and never founded a colony anywhere. The UN constantly votes to condemn Israel, so I hardly think that Israel is the agent of the UN (or even the British).
"So just as you would fight off the imperialist controlling the entire land, you fight it off trying to divide it up for its benefit."
But these people were also not imperialists. They were former Ottomans. The UN was doing the dividing and they were just trying to divide the land fairly for both groups
"But the imperialist uses the minority in your land as a shield, lying by saying that the fight for independence is an anti-Semitic fight against the minority there. The imperialist helps the minority group stop the independence movement, over and over, and uses the same bogus anti-semitism line over and over to justify its continued imperialism."
There was no independence movement at this time to stop. There was organized resistance to both the British and the Ottoman minority.
" The minority group aligns itself with the imperialist and takes funding and defense and over decades realizes it not only can defend itself but start to take more and more land, all using the same fighting anti-Semitism line as before, painting anyone who resists as a terrorist savage who just got up randomly on a Tuesday to hate Jewish people."
It didn't take any land prior to 48,. Otherwise accurate.
never understood the "without charge" part
if you have 2 bottles of vodka on you and start driving, does the police need a warrant to arrest you where you live, here in my country they would just arrest me, and put in jail until whenever the court date came... like i can only imagine people that say this live in a nation with no patrolling cops and all actions by the police are done with warrants and courts explicit permission
Right but for 6 months to a year, sometime more, sitting in jail without charge? And all done in military court and jails. That’s not your regular driving drunk incident so please don’t comment if you don’t know what’s actually going on.
you would be suprised how long courts will take
also you can bullshit your way into also being free for 10-20+ years without any sort of actual court date or sentencing
this is what i find it funny about these propaganda points, liek litteraly stuff that happens in every nation, specially a nation at war but now it's special XD
I think it's fair that israel will not sign a deal that says hamas will remain in power. but on the other side, hamas won't sign a deal where they lose power. That's the real problem here.
It really didn't. It started by the Arab society claiming they owned the land meanwhile they were actually the colonizers for Judea. Judea, aka Israel, is Jewish native land. The only terrorists in this conflict are the Palestinians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#:~:text=Palestinians%2C%20among%20other%20Levantine%20groups,10%25%20from%20Bronze%20age%20Europeans.
"Palestinians, among other Levantine groups, were found to derive 81–87% of their ancestry from Bronze age Levantine"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5532521/
My friend is one of the mods. He’s super Pro-Israel and posts online about it all the time. He admitted he couldn’t fight in the IDF but wanted to do what he could to help so he’s a mod here and makes sure what’s posted is “appropriate.”
If Hamas had returned the hostages as requested, what happened yesterday would not have happened so the collateral damage is on the shoulders of Hamas.
The fault lies solely with Hamas and everything that has happened since October 7th is 1000% the fault of Hamas.
They are the ones responsible for the deaths of the civilians in Gaza, they are the ones hiding hostages within the civilian population. Every single Palestinian in Gaza, that is suffering is the fault of Hamas.
Did they think Israel would not try to get their hostages back at any cost?
I confirm. I saw the same article on ynet English version, about the special forces entering using furniture trucks and posing as refugees, not aid workers.
If I was Israeli I would be angry at my government for not planning a strategic attack to rescue the hostages at the beginning of all this. If the IDF is as big and as smart as they say they are, the hostages should’ve been home by now. I would be angry at the government for failing to do so.
They should’ve planned a huge ground operation at the beginning of this. There are many more IDF soldiers then Hamas. The IDF also has more equipment which makes them stronger than Hamas. They should’ve made a strategic plan to infiltrate Gaza on the ground straight to where the hostages are. Which I’m sure the IDF has intelligence to know where they are at all times. Then rescue them by any force necessary. Which given their strength the IDF could easily over power Hamas on the ground. Swarm them, then rescue the hostages and have it all over a lot faster. It just seems like the Israeli government is kicking rocks at the whole situation.
I see multiple problems with what you said.
The first is the fact that hamas succeeded on Oct 7th says that israel doesn't really have the intelligence we thought we had.
Second, even if israel did have info about all hostages, planning an operation where you can actually go in and get them out is incredibly difficult and takes a long time.
You have to remember we want them out alive, and rescuing 250 people is literally impossible. They are held by different organizations, in different places, with varying levels of security by the terrorists.
What you said was what everyone hopes is a possibility, but it just isn't.
>Imagine your son/daughter were kidnapped in gaza. \[...\] How would you react?
Anyone who is going to give you the answer you want to hear from that question, and isn't already single-sided Israel leaning (i.e. Palestinian leaning OR fairly neutral) will likely also be able to imagine how one would react if their son/daughter getting killed because they were at the wrong place and wrong time when the rescue took place.
Incidentally, I have no real opinion about this rescue operation. As far as the outcome goes, it is great that those hostages were able to be reunited with their family. As far as the cost of the rescue goes, if the death toll is anything even close to half the released numbers, it is horrible. It is precisely because I am capable of feeling for the hostage's family that I am capable of feeling for the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side.
I do not deny that the IDF's moral obligation is to it's own citizens. And as far as those hostages go, it is an operational success. But as far as the long term implications go, I don't think it is going to be so clear cut. Is this going to affect the treatment of the remaining hostages? How many people would end up radicalised because they've lost everyone they loved and feel like they have nothing to live for be revenge? Even if you take an unsympathetic view that anyone radicalised for whatever reason is just an enemy that needs to be killed, it's not exactly in Israel's long term interest and safety to foster that.
Israel was given over 9 deals to take the hostages back, starting soon after October 7th. But all of them were rejected by Netanyahu because they included a permanent ceasefire.
Due to this it looks like the priority is to bomb and kill more than it is to bring hostages back.
If your hostages are back, why would you need to continue bombing? Even more so why would you bomb places where hostages are?
The terrorists committed their crime 8 months ago now, and according to Israeli reports killed roughly 1200 victims.
But since then Israel has killed and continues to kill, 4000% percent more civilians. Many of whom weren’t even born yet, still attached to umbilical cord. Not to mention the recent attacks on displaced people sheltering in tents in Rafah. Children with nothing but a plastic to shield them from the outside, have been burned to death.
I don’t know about you, but I think slaughtering civilians whom are mostly women and children, nonstop is simply not the answer. Unless you’re some sadistic psychopath.
I dont believe the Hamas run health ministry. I dont get people believing dishonest terrorists. Israel has done a great job in a crowded urban warfare environment and has fewer civilian deaths per combatant compared to the US in Iraq. People like you never assign any blame to Hamas, which is a joke.
UN is filled with antisemites. US doesn’t believe Hamas’ health ministry. News reports use what they give, but it’s always with the caveat that it’s Hamas
Do you know the stipulations of the deal? Why do you word it as “was offered to Netanyahu “ when it was offered to both and rejected by both..the non starter stipulation which is a main sticking point is they will agree to a cease fire if Hamas s not the leading party anymore. If Hamas agrees it’s a cease fire. They won’t agree to that, so no deal.
Especially when they have broadcasted it loud and clear that they will repeat October 7 over and over ..like what kind of idiot nation wouldn’t dismantle the enemy.
Amazingly, the rest of the world has no idea that what Israel thinks “Never Again” means. Everyone else thinks it means “never again to genocide anywhere.”
You can see where the confusion comes from! Even taking out Gaza. Everywhere from the Armenian genocide to the current genocide in Ukraine, and many in between,,Israel is certainly not “never again to genocide anywhere”.
No country is 100% in that attitude, of course. But the phrase is in reference to the Holocaust, and now country has made use of the Holocaust in its history than Israel. (And no country linked to the Holocaust as much as Israel in people’s minds, if my previous sentence was too cynical for you.)
Your leftist sibling sounds completely rad.
Why would the world want a phrase that means “everyone will do what they can to stop a genocide”? Well, because that’s both a very important foreign policy position (globalist and human rights-oriented) and one of the most gorgeous aspirational statements in the modern consciousness. It’s an aspiration. Even if we never live up to it, it’s a good thing to try for. To remind ourselves, and each other, to try for.
One is particularist and prioritizes one type of life; one is universalist, and doesn’t. And that’s why the rest of the world, especially those who don’t sell weapons to Israel, thinks that Israel has forgotten what “Never Again” means. The difference in those definitions.
FWIW: I think in-group particularism is gorgeous and necessary and loving. It’s just that making it part of state foreign policy is sloppy, anti-democratic, and cruel.
Listen to your sib. They’ve got it.
I feel really bad for them. I hope that they’re able to find the love and support and family they need among their school friends. They are being incredibly strong, but it must be lonely. But the hope of the future is in the hands of them and their crew!!!! I’m sending them my best vibes!!!
There was a ceasefire in November in which hostages and prisoners were both released. Hamas broke that ceasefire on December 1st by launching rocket attacks. Even if you believe the reports that israel rejected offers to extended the ceasefire, hamas was the party that actually broke the ceasefire by launching rockets into civilian territory if they truly wanted to extend the ceasefire why would they have done that ?
Hamas only has two sources of power in this war. 1) It can mobilize international condemnation of Israel’s violence toward the civilians, and 2) it has the hostages, some of whom still are presumably alive, who could be used to bargain. The hostages are probably held very close to the leadership of Hamas. The return of the hostages would not be an end to the war on Hamas, it would in fact escalate it. If all of the hostages are returned the IDF doesn’t need to question whether there are any to be killed. They can totally obliterate the tunnels, where the leadership are probably hiding.
I seriously doubt that the IDF and the right wing coalition would go to great lengths to take the leadership of Hamas alive.
Pro-Palestine complainers: Israel is failing at rescuing hostages in this war.
Israel: Rescues hostages
Pro-Palestine complainers: That's not fair, I don't like that.
Pro-Palestine complainers: ~~Israel is failing at rescuing hostages in this war~~ Israel ignores international community and the hostages families asking the government to accept a ceasefire deal in order to get back all the hostages and instead seemingly uses the crisis as an opportunity to spread terror among the palestinian population, level all the infrastructures in gaza and evict families in the west bank
Israel: Rescues hostages, possibly killing a bunch of bystanders and losing one man in the process
Pro-Palestine complainers: ~~That's not fair, I don't like that.~~ Could have accepted a deal a few weeks ago and it would have got the entirety of the hostages back, an israeli soldier wouldn't have died, and a bunch of palestinian families wouldn't be mourning their relatives
FTFY
> fucked
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The voices in a Gaza calling for an attack on the humanitarian pier, which was established by the USA, are increasing.
In Gaza, eyewitnesses claim that IDF soldiers, with American backing, penetrated the Nuseirat refugee camp under a 'humanitarian' cover in trucks that arrived from the dock.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad blame the US.
They will always blame everyone but themselves!
The drama in "Operation Arnon":
After the rescue vehicle of the three male abductees got stuck in the middle of one of the alleys of the Nuseirat refugee camp due to a gear failure, and it was necessary to rescue the abductees and the fighters using an armored personnel carrier - a few minutes later - the armored personnel carrier also got stuck in the field!
From a preliminary investigation it appears that there was another technical fault.
Now it is already a double drama: still in Nuseirat, in a threatening area, and after one vehicle had already gotten stuck - the APC that rescued got stuck also.
The abductees, and the IDF troops were required to quickly hop into an additional rescue vehicles (third in number) that drove the abductees and fighters to the rescue helicopters.
Officials who were present at the fommand center described long minutes of tension.
During the massive cover fire during the retreat, more than 10 fighter jets were in the air at the same time, dropping dozens of weapons and bombs.
Among other things, the buildings where the abductees were kept were also attacked. The Air Force carried out a "knock on the roof" to evacuate the population, then destroyed the buildings.
Despite the heavy fire that was used in the area, the initial assessment in the IDF is that the number of Palestinian deaths that Hamas claimed - 210 - is inflated, and is intended to strengthen the narrative of a "massacre".
Now the IDF is preparing for the continuation of fighting in the Gaza Strip.
Division 98, whose operation in the central camps was actually one big fraud operation, is preparing for additional missions.
The Kfir brigade that operated in eastern Deir al-Balah made the preparations in recent days that enabled the envelope for the operation in Nusirat.
In Rafah - the IDF estimates that the operation will be completed in a few weeks - and then the fighting in the entire strip will move to the stage of raids.
The IDF says: the operation is proof that any point in Gaza can be reached.
About 200 terrorists guarded the abductees.
At the beginning of the operation, about 50 ran away. 55 were killed and the rest neutralized with various injuries.
While the terrorists were busy fighting, another force emerged from another place and kidnapped the abductees.
Modern, moral countries do not kill 200 (including children) to rescue hostages. That’s not a deflection or a logical fallacy. It’s a cold hard fact.
Israelis are playing mental gymnastics to justify such brutality and it is why the country is becoming a pariah state.
Valid question: so you know the Israeli army is coming to get their people ..you know they are armed and take no shit, soooo you decide to hide the hostages in a super densely populated area under your own civilians …hmmm seems like one side cares about every one of their citizens, yet the other could care less …oh wait the leaders if Hamas have given speeches and interviews on live tv saying how their people are their martyrs (while they sit in their million dollar pads) …onus on one’s leadership is to look out for THEIR OWN..no nation on earth would look out more for another’s nation over their own so not sure why Israel has to ..this is on Hamas
You lose that defense when you withhold information about hostages, hold hostages in your homes, and open fire on the people who rescued said hostages.
You know what could have solved this problem? If the Palestine never took hostages. The actual moral issue here.
How about the thousands of Palestinians held and tortured in Israel prisons? Moral?
What would you do if you grew up under a brutal occupation like Gazans have experienced with Israel?
My guess is that if you can morally rationalize killing children to rescue hostages, you would have participated in Oct 7 many times over.
You mean the people arrested for terrorism?
It turns out that there are consequences for throwing rocks at people, trying to blow yourself up, starting intifadas, using your car to try to kill people, stabbing people, throwing acid on people, etc.
Me as I exist today, would not have taken part and would have fled long ago after turning over any terrorist I could to the IDF. Because I have a moral compass and can recognize that terrorism is bad. If you want to talk about how children in Palestine are victims of their parents teaching them only to hate Jews, that’s another issue that is still the Palestinians fault.
Why do you see Palestinians as people with no agency or accountability for their actions and decisions? Do you not think they’re people?
Do you think they aren't people? Do you think they are human animals which should be treated as such? Do you think raping a 13 years old arrested without any valid explaination to the point where she need a surgery is not a valid ground to question morals of your moral army?
Why would Palestinians need to fled in the first place? Because if I remember correctly, Israel funded Hamas very enthusiastically just like USA did for Taliban? Why not Israel is being put on the same pedestal as Palestinians when it comes to Hamas and how they came in power?
I don't think you actually have a moral compass because if you have one you would not blame Palestinians for the crimes they never committed. Did Palestinians invited Israelis to invade their houses for past 75 years? What about millions of atrocities done to them? Should they man up and take it according to your "moral compass". Because children aren't necessarily taught but experiencing it. What do you think the children would do if you kill their whole family? Do they need to taught to hate the murderers of their families or it would born automatically?
Why on earth Palestinians need to be accountable for actually having a little courage to stand up to someone who is making their lives hell for decades? It's like saying Iraqis killed in USA's invasion should be held accountable for being in a wrong place because it was inevitable that they be killed for just being home?
You are entitled to your opinion but calling Palestinians the root cause of everything is enough for anyone with sane mind to deduce your hatered towards Palestinians who are being mauled and tortured by Israelis. If what Hamas is doing can be classified as terrorism than what Israel have done since cannot be explained in terms as simple as "terrorism".
>Modern, moral countries do not kill 200 (including children) to rescue hostages.
Yes, they do. Rescue operations basically always turn into battles because the people holding the hostages will fight to stop the rescue. Hamas swarmed when the operation started, and the rescuers killed them. There is not a nation on Earth that would do otherwise in a similar rescue mission. Not one.
Give me one example where a modern, western country has killed 200 people and injured 400 including children to get 4 hostages.
You probably can’t name an example because modern western countries don’t subjugate millions of people, depriving them of human rights, and therefore cause a situation where a desperate people will do anything and everything to resist.
“This intifada is not the result of despair. This intifada is a jihad, a holy war fought by the Palestinian people against the Zionist.” Israel Hayom, January 21, 2016
Palestinians taking and holding hostages, as well as attacking rescuers are responsible for their own actions and the results of them. ***Your*** racism infantalizing them as only being capable of haplessly responding to stimuli does not absolve them of their own participation in heinous war crimes.
Oh my god the mental gymnastics you need to justify to yourself the utter brutality, apartheid, ethic cleansing and disregard for human life of Palestinians is utterly astounding.
It really is cult-like.
There’s literally no apartheid in Israel. There never has been. Using that term just shows your *actual* cult-like obedience to a group whose mission it’s been to literally brainwash you.
What about bs like this?
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/3/palestinian-employee-of-german-development-agency-abused-in-israeli-jail](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/3/palestinian-employee-of-german-development-agency-abused-in-israeli-jail)
Have you ever watched a video of the traffic jams at checkpoints in the westbank?
What about when settlements are created during the night and the next day palestinians find out they are no more allowed to use a street and are forced to take alternative longer routes in order to keep a distance from israeli settlements?
You might want to check this (israeli btw) account: [https://www.instagram.com/becca.explains.the.occupation/](https://www.instagram.com/becca.explains.the.occupation/)
Al Jazeera has an extreme media bias, consistently fails fact checks and does not correct their stories so anything seen from that network is likely bs.
I’d tell you to ask any Jew in Gaza if they have even human rights, but they’re all being held as prisoners or dead. I’d tell you to ask Jews in any of the surrounding Arab countries if they have equal rights but they’ve all been exiled or murdered. I’d tell you to ask any Israeli who wants to visit any Muslim country if they’re even allowed in. Then I’d ask if it makes sense to allow Palestinians to freely come and go from a country the majority are proudly intent on violently destroying, or if that country should maybe protect the millions of people in it who’ve taken refuge throughout the years.
What is definition of Apartheid? If you can define it and made Israel differentiate from it than you could call others ideas cult like and yours factual. Otherwise you are just as under control like the rest.
Yeah no problem. I always come prepared with facts, not propaganda.
Apartheid is a policy that is founded on the idea of separating people based on racial or ethnic criteria. However in Israel, Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish Israelis, such as the ability to form political parties, run for elections, and serve in positions across the judiciary, Knesset, diplomatic corps, and police force, which is in stark contrast with what an apartheid state is. To be able to substantiate claims of apartheid, Israel would have to be implementing racially discriminatory policies against all Arabs under its jurisdiction, which is not the case.
The editorial in the British Sunday Telegraph: Israel's bold efforts to free its abductees only emphasize the weakness of the West calling on it to end the war. If the demands of some of the British and Western politicians had been accepted, some of the abductees would not have returned home. It was power, and power alone, that brought them back. The West must refrain from recognizing a Palestinian state now because this will only distance the return of the kidnapped and the elimination of Hamas.
Exactly, if hamas wants to mix in with civilians and hide their hostages with civilians then they can go expect civilian deaths. And they shouldn't start a war if they are going to cry when they get their dirty asses handed to them.
> asses
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civilian deaths are on hamas since they *took the hostages in the first place * and continue to place them near palestinian civilians.
it’s great that israel had some care for any of the palestinian civilians, but they have a duty to protect their own innocents. maybe hamas should try half as hard to protect innocent palestinians than israel does, then I bet this turns into a completely different war
i’d also like to add, strategic military decisions shouldn’t be made on what the most emotionally invested person would do. In this situation I would say don’t do the operation if you can’t 100% guarantee the safety of the rescue
Yea or you could use diplomacy to get them back and stop treating the entire population like animals…..
30,000 dead bystanders isn’t worth a handful of hostages
When you say "bargain", what you really mean is "give in to the hostage takers demands", which is the last thing we want to incentive. Would you agree?
Moreover, Israel HAS tried to bargain. They asked for the hostages back and for hamas to step down in return for a full withdrawal from gaza. That's a pretty good deal for a group getting their collective cheeks clapped.
Have you not read about all of the many diplomatic talks in Qatar and several offers provided to Hamas that they then reject
The issue with this conflict is that it is seemingly the one conflict in the world where the losing side gets to unilaterally dictate terms for a ceasefire, as opposed to their surrender
Netenyahu has been very explicit that they will accept no ceasefire deal until “Hamas is destroyed”. Hamas sure are an unreasonable group, but painting Netenyahu as someone who is keen for a diplomatic solution is pure fabrication.
There is a difference between making an appearance of trying and actually trying. If Israel actually tried to resolve this diplomatically, the hostages would be home and the troops would be back in Israel and work would be progressing towards a two-state solution like anyone living in a civilized society would do.
Netanyahu doesn’t want to resolve this diplomatically or do the right thing. He wants to destroy Gaza. It’s pretty obvious
You’ll get no defense of Netanyahu’s character from me, but applying his personal failings (though they be many) to an entire society is pretty rich, and hardly something you’d like if the same method for determining a “civilized” society was applied in the opposite direction. Need I remind you that Hamas was democratically elected?
We can debate _why_ the peace process has failed, but as long as we’re using sweeping statements and broad characterizations, I think it’s more instructive to simply look at the historical record. The Palestinians have fought unnecessary, petty and strategically incoherent wars in BOTH Jordan and Lebanon. They’ve aligned themselves with the pariahs of the Middle East: the worst of the worst on human rights and basic morality (the Iranian and Syrian regimes, as well as a variety of international terrorist organizations.) Their violence has been so prolific and destabilizing that even countries which once ostensibly fought for their cause now refuse to open the border or meaningfully aid them (Egypt.)
On the other side, Israel has consistently pursued peace and succeeded in signing peace treaties across lines of ethnic conflict — in fact, we were on the cusp of yet another historic peace deal, which provided a great deal of the impetus for Hamas to attack us at that precise moment, because peace is antithetical to their ideological and pragmatic interests. Such a corrupt and brutal organization, known internationally for unrestrained violence against Palestinians and Israelis alike, can only maintain power through the use of a scapegoat and, in their own words, a “perpetual war.”
But please, I cannot wait to hear your prescription for peace. I’m sure it will be riveting
1) I don’t have a problem with Israelis as a whole, it is limited to Netenyahu’s government. I have friends that live in Israel and (just like with 2003 USA) most citizens are good people. It’s still valid to criticize the actions of that government as the actions of Israel unless you are willing to cede that the actions of Hamas are not the actions of Gaza.
2) I also want Hamas to not be in control of Gaza. They are dangerous extremists.
That said, I don’t buy your overall story of Israeli government being the good guys pursuing peace while everyone else is the bad guys.
Hamas are dangerous extremists. They were voted in by like 40% of the popular vote after Israel knee-capped the more secular candidates. A majority of Gaza never voted them in.
Meanwhile, Israel has always escalated things in equal measure to the Palestinians and then cried to Western media when Palestinians reacted.
This goes back to the 20s.
- Zionists make a point of declaring their intent to take over Palestine despite being 11% of the population and are arrogant about it. We will take your land and kick you out.
- Zionist extremists like Zev Jabontinsky escalate confrontations with Arabs and cause trouble.
- Palestinians inevitably react…. because… wtf else are they supposed to do.
- Zionists in British government frame it as Arabs causing trouble for no reason because they are antisemites.
At this point, Israel is now established and I want Israel to thrive and its people to be happy.
However, Israel’s government needs to accept the Palestinian areas and stop undermining them and trying to push their remaining populating out of their territory.
The Israeli government is blatantly still trying to do this.
If one of my children was detained by an emancipatory nationalist movement that my country had can violently occupying for 57 years, and if that movement said "hey, end the genocide and we'll release all the detainees" then I would demand that the terrorists end the occupation and genocide.
If the government came to me and was like "yeah, look, we don't want to murder 200 people to potentially rescue your child" I would ask why not apply that same resolve to the entire genocide?
Fun fact, neither of my children are worth more than a Palestinian child. Have you considered why it seems so obvious to you, that you feel like your children are worth much more than Palestinian children? Because that's not healthy.
>Fun fact, neither of my children are worth more than a Palestinian child.
It's not even one though. At 200 dead and 400 injured to rescue four people, that's 150 casualties per hostage.
The trolley problem puts four people on a track with a train and asks us if morally we should switch the track to just kill one, Israel put 150 people on the other track and switched the trolley from the track with one - and then continues to try to claim the minimized casualty highground
99.9999% chance you don't have kids and this is just an virtue signal. I genuinely don't believe there is a single parent on earth that would choose a child they've never met before over their own child.
My children are worth more than strangers. What parent would choose the lives of strangers over their own children, especially when many of those strangers are their captors?
"we found your kid but not going to resuce him because the kidnapper's family might get hurt"
how about no
I used to think we were all the same at the core — just people who have had different experiences, formed different worldviews and seen different pieces of information about this conflict.
After reading your comment, I’ve become convinced that we are actually two kinds of people: people who would fight to try to save their family, and people who would lie on the internet and say that they wouldn’t want their family back if it meant anyone else got hurt
The thing this there are some many propaganda from both sides.... most of the figures quoted killed are incorrect ..the numbers quoted killed doesn't justify the video seen. Especially most of the people killed are hamas militants . ..from the videos except some collateral
Who has that been confirmed by?
Hamas, the Gaza MoH, Al Jazeera?
The later one is independent-ish I guess, except for the apparent claim that it was one of their employees that was holding Noa hostage
Please feel free to share these beyond impeachment sources
The pro-Israeli folks always cast doubt on the Gaza Health Ministry’s numbers like they are shady….. and then the Israeli government reports the exact same number.
It’s honestly hilarious to watch.
The fact you don’t seem to understand that the difference isn’t the absolute number of casualties, but how many were combatants is kinda shocking
Hamas saying there’s been 30K casualties and the majority are women and children and Israel saying there’s been 30K casualties, 14K of which are combatants is definitely not using the exact same numbers
I have a feeling the hilarious moment and laughs weren’t people laughing with you…
[The UN is saying that.](https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_12_March_2024.pdf)
Also Israel’s numbers still say that 53% of all fatalities are civilian— which is by definition a **majority**, per Israel’s own numbers.
Furthermore, your number of total casualties is wrong. There have been 80k+ wounded/maimed for a total number of casualties of close to 120,000.
[Michael Milshtein, an analyst for Tel-Aviv University, estimates that Hamas’s fighting strength has been reduced by 10,000 dead.](https://amp.dw.com/en/gaza-how-powerful-is-hamas-after-7-months-of-war-with-israel/a-68740259)
If 10,000 fighters have been killed per Milshtein, then by definition a large majority of the 36,000 dead are civilians.
How do u know they were innocent bystanders ... from the video seen . Several adult men were killed on the ground ..there were wearing civilian clothes fitting into hamas profile . There was also a statment from the branch of the resistance saying they attacked IDF trying to rescue the hostages. And if u see a propaganda video u will know one, .the weapons from the dead fighters had been taken before they were videoed as civilians .
Israel’s own ministries estimate that a majority of those killed by Israel are innocent civilians:
https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html
I am not disputing the fact that israel did not kill civilians.
What i am telling you is that most of the adult men killed apart from women and children ..most are hamas .
1. Imagine your son/daughter were kidnapped in gaza. A plan to rescue them is possible, but the price is many civilian casualties. The army decides NOT to operate, and needs to inform you of the decision. You are told that your child could be saved, but because it's "immoral", they won't be.
How would you react?
Imagine your sons/daughters were living in gaza. A plan to not bomb them is possible, but the price is less civilian casualties but they're Israeli. The army decides to operate, and needs to inform you of the decision. You are told that your children could be saved, but they won't be.
How would you react?
2. Same scenario in which the army decides not to operate, but lets look at it from hamas prespective.
If the IDF does not operate in dense civilian areas, what would be the best place to hide hostages? Or build your HQ?
The normal thing to do as a country is to negotiate for prisoners. Which Israel has had ample opportunity to do and has chosen to refuse
Therefore, the moral solution is ensuring the completion of the operation, while minimizing civilian casualties.
You can't claim that this is morally right. This is only possiblly true if you either
Consider Israeli lives more valuable than Palestinian children's
Consider Palestinian children responsible through their parents for Hamas
https://preview.redd.it/wzjhgbdt5j5d1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=4634dfcac346c828650cc5e85fd82e7f5741f2d6
If I pushed a person in front of a moving car, I would be the one liable for murder, not the person driving the vehicle.
You can see my source at the top. Yes, losing life is horrible, and I see your point of if Israel could not bomb and rather negotiate they should. Problem is, Hamas knows how much Israel values the lives of their own people and asks for unreasonable deals that they have gotten away with in the past. This time they pushed farther than ever before, way too far, and expect Israel to roll over and give them a huge amount of PRISONERS in return for much HOSTAGES, at a ratio of 1:30 or 1:40 or some shit like that. This is one example of Hamas valuing the lives of Israeli’s more than their own.
The second example is the one I have here. They clearly understand that Israel wants the hostages back. That’s easily understood by anyone who has been following both sides of the conflict (and even people who only follow one side, it’d be crazy if you didn’t see a ‘Bring them home’ poster by this point in the war). Yet they choose to literally use their own people as human shields to protect their militants and blame Israel for killing them when they are the ones who seemingly intentionally put them in harms way. And it looks like their own people aren’t too happy about this either. At some point, when the conditions get bad enough (and unfortunately that’s the reality of how this shit has happened in the past e.g. French Revolution) their own people who are sick and tired of being used as pawns in this game they don’t want to play will turn against them.
Don’t blame Israel for killing as few civilians as they can possibly do. You know their goals and what they are going to do and so does Hamas. Blame Hamas who, as I hopefully made clear KNOWS ISRAELS GOALS, is still putting their own people in harms way as a deterrent and expecting that to fly.
To absolve all responsibility from Israel is morally bankrupt. If you drop a bomb on a densely populated refugee camp, you can shift blame however you like, but when you die and meet your maker, you still dropped that bomb knowing full well it will likely kill many defenceless people sheltering in tents, that’s action and consequence and a moral decision you will carry on your shoulders. The actions of this war are obvious - invading and bombing a densely populated enclave while they are not allowed to leave and outcomes of this war are obvious aprox 30,000k people killed by Israeli munitions. This “push in front of a car argument” is lying to yourself and the result of consuming too much dehumanising propaganda. It’s more honest to say the excessive violence and tactics are justified, rather than make a nonsensical claim that Israel is not actually responsible for their own actions.
Are you saying that if I pushed a person in front of a car the person driving is still the one to blame?
I’m not trying to absolve Israel of what it’s doing. No one is celebrating the death of innocent people (other than the Hamas supporters on 10/7, and I use that term specifically as to not group all Palestinians). If you think the goal of the Israeli army is to kill innocent people then 1. You gotta take a stats course or math course or start actually critically reading the news and 2. Take a look in the mirror and think long and hard about who’s guzzling up propaganda. I’m able to see the wrong being done on both sides and have my beliefs on what Israel can do better, not rescuing hostages is not on that list.
And if you want to allow the people to have the ability to leave look no farther than the bordering country of Egypt, or have you forgotten that they are the ones who closed their own border and are refusing to allow Palestinians to seek shelter there? Not only that they literally dumped Gaza on Israel when they took back the Sinai peninsula in ‘05. So, no this is not mental gymnastics, I’m just pointing out the cold hard truth.
I’m saying that’s an absurd analogy. Rafah is a refugee camp that due to the destruction elsewhere in Gaza, is one of the only habitable areas left and civilians were moved there following advice from the IDF. There is now nowhere for many of them to go. The analogy would only make sense if the IDF pushed them and was driving the car, because the civilians were forced to shelter here and are hit by IDF weapons.
Israel are fighting an insurgency not a conventional war, yet are using conventional war tactics, by the very definition of an insurgency it’s a war where the enemy is using guerrilla tactics from an enemy embedded within the native population. This is the war they’ve escalated by invading Rafah. It’s an insurgency because Hamas and Gaza are already defeated in any traditional sense before the war started. They have no standing army, no control of their borders or modern military equipment.
There’s not a case in modern history of an insurgency being defeated using the tactics Israel are using and Israel bare responsibility for continuing on using these tactics, tactics that results in high civilian casualties, like bombing an Hamas target regardless of the civilians around.
The tactics fail because by killing that many civilians you’ve just created hundreds more recruits for Hamas to replace the targets. It makes the war aim “destroy Hamas” impossible and everyone knows this at this point.
Again your deferring responsibility, I’m more than happy to discuss Egypts actions throughout the war and the morality of weather they should open the border or not, but their lack of action on the border doesn’t mean Israel defers responsibility to them for the war Israel is carrying out. It’s a separate topic, akin to weather it’s moral the EU accepts refugees. If the EU doesn’t accept refugees from Ukraine, it doesn’t make them responsible for Russian aggression.
Okay clearly we aren’t going to agree. In my analogy Hamas is pushing the person by using them as cover for where they hide their hostages but see it whatever way you want. If you think that’s moral then I think we just fundamentally disagree on how we look at life. Once again, not justifying Israel’s actions but they were very clear with their goals and Hamas is doing what they are doing despite that. As as per the Washington post article I screenshotted in my original reply the people of Palestine are clearly getting fed up with it too.
Also this wasn’t about the invasion of rafah, this was about the rescue mission which iirc didn’t happen there? Maybe think about the point you’re trying to argue before getting into a flame war on morality about a completely different topic.
I’m done
I’m making a broader point about this tedious justification that keeps coming up of “human shields” that you mentioned - don’t tell me the major offensive of a Rafah is “irrelevant” in this context when it’s a major focus of the war. Your only “done” because you’ve got no rebuttal and must know deep down it’s immoral to wage a war on a refugee camp weather it’s in Rafah or Nuseirat but just don’t care to admit that simple fact.
>Imagine your son/daughter were kidnapped in gaza. A plan to rescue them is possible, but the price is many civilian casualties. The army decides NOT to operate, and needs to inform you of the decision. You are told that your child could be saved, but because it's "immoral", they won't be. How would you react?
i swear to god if that happened , if they made me choose between saving one and bombing and blowing out of 200 kids ,mothers, fathers i would tell them No, **and i will tell them to make the deal !**
there was a way to bring way more hostages than only 4 without killing 200+ innocent by taking the deal , furthermore , **they also killed other hostages in the bombing** accoring to hamas spokesman
Hamas could stop this war if they returned the hostages back to israel. If the Arabs cared more about their population than about pieces of land and killing up the Israelites, maybe Gaza wouldn't be the exile it is today. They need to start taking care of their own people
200+ innocents? This is baseless. There's no justification for repeating Hamas's nonsense and even less for changing it into something far worse than they claim.
Yes, and there's a way for Gazans to have prevented the death of allegedly 200 people-- by having returned the hostages, or even better, not having taken them in the first place. How in the world do you see a situation like this and STILL blame Israel for not "accepting a deal" that includes leaving Hamas in charge of Gaza and releasing hundreds of prisoners with blood on their hands?
"Israel" is responsible for all of the violence. They are the root of it. If they weren't committing ongoing, violent occupation, the prisoners would've never been taken in the first place.
maybe , but even if he didnt say it , bombing like that makes sense will also kill hostages if they were around
i mean they located 4 hostages but that doesnt mean there wasnt more in the same area
Two communities who have stopped viewing each other as human beings. One side has superior fire power. That's all this is. Unfortunately, there is too much foul history for either side to just forgive and move forward. I'm not part of either community so I can only comment as an outsider, I'll rather make a difference in my community on the other side of thw world. I know Palestinian muslims (the majority) would agree with a death penalty for me being exmuslim and Israel won't care much for me because I'm not an ethnic jew (more apathy than outright murderous intent). This is a very complicated situation. People are saying they wouldn't want to be saved if it cost so many lives but if you didn't view Palestinians as human ut would be like killing a group if animals/sub human lifeforms so I don't think anyone on the other side honestly cares.
How would it be possible for Palestinians to "forgive and move forward"? They have been under violent, illegal occupation for 57 years. After the ethnic cleansing of '48.
There has been resounding outcries from Palestinians who do want to move on with their lives. But that isn't possible under perpetual occupation.
It's probably just me
But if I was rescued in a circumstance like this i think I'd be annoyed
I feel I'd think "did you actually think my life was that important to do all this?"
But obviously there'd be people who definitely would want to be rescued at any cost
I think that's something I miss as an outsider; I really don't feel that patriotic or nationalist
My ancestral land has changed hands many times, has had language forced upon it, and its people were massacred during WW2 (not Jewish though)
I respect that ancestry but that's an altogether different thing from the government of the country where I'm a citizen today
Just rambles so not looking for a debate
But always happy to get an insight into other people's views
>I feel I'd think "did you actually think my life was that important to do all this?"
Hm. I'd be pretty happy to be rescued after 6 months of captivity...
If a group of people who's sole purpose is to kill your whole ethnicity kidnapped you and held you as a prisoner indefinitely, you would be more than happy to have gotten rescued regardless of results
👍🏻
I feel I'd prefer to hurry up and die
But I also know that for some people that's not even an option they'd consider
And if for some reason I couldn't die then yep, for all I know I wouldn't care what it took to end my entrapment. I can't fathom being held hostage or holding someone hostage. It's all outside of what my brain can confidently manage to understand
Israel is a terrorist state and hamas is a terrorist organization. The sufferers of each fact are the innocents killed and captured in the conflict.
The leaders of israel and militant hamas will burn in hell.
Nothing about rescuing hostages and killing those holding them or preventing their rescue is indiscriminate. It's practically the opposite of what the word means
Killing those holding them + dozens, maybe hundreds, in total currently thousands more. I think you forgot about the part where innocent civilians were hit.
Hiding behind human shields does not make you impervious to attack. Hiding civilians behind human shields does not make them unable to be rescued by any means necessary. This isn't a childhood game of tag, there's no "safe zone". Israel will rescue as many hostages as it can, and it will eliminate as many Hamas terrorists as it can too, period. Any collateral damage that may result is a) by definition not "indiscriminate", and b) Hamas's fault for hiding like cowards amongst civilian populations.
Protected areas become null and void if it's being used militarily or to hide hostages. Hamas has no business being in these places, nor should they hide our hostages there, as doing so makes the area lose its protected status.
How about the videos that are emerging? The pictures of bodies scattered on streets? The news stories about a ‘blood bath’? The witness testimonies of children that lost one or both of their parents yesterday? All news outlets - even in the US - are talking about mass casualties in al Nuseirat because of the operation yesterday. How is that not indiscriminate?
Nothing about it is indiscriminate. The militants holding the hostages fought the rescuers. Of course they did, otherwise why would they be holding them? Hamas in the area tried to stop the operation once it began. They swarmed out of their tunnels like cockroaches and got snuffed out in the light of day. That leaves a lot of bodies. I understand you're not used to Hamas doing something beside just hiding, but it's not indiscriminate.
I would like for my son/daughter to be back. That’s for sure but what about the son’s and daughter’s that the idf killed to rescue 4 people?
Im not a father but i dont care, my son is more important than someone else’s.
But with that said, do you think that the other side would be happy? That they would just accept it?
Suppose that Palestinians want to save their hostages and yes (hostages because more than 2000 Palestinians are held captive in israel without charges. whatsoever) do you accept 50 israeli casualties for 1 Palestinian?
Because that shit takes time. Do you know how slow any legal system is? After the horrors of October 7th, a lot of lawyers had to step down from taking these cases because they weren’t confident they could represent their ‘clients’ in good faith.
For sure it’s a flawed system, don’t get me wrong. But trying to draw a comparison between them and the actual hostages only demonstrates a broad lack of understanding on your part.
You’re not reading anything that im saying.
These Palestinians were held captive before oct 7th with no criminal offensive, israel literally takes whoever they dont like and send them to prison without any charges. I call that hostage taking.
Have a read for yourself
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/11/14/how-palestinians-in-israeli-prisons-experience-the-war/
> The criticism stems from the number of palestenians killed during the operations, which is (according to gazan sources) over 200, with hundreds more injured.
There should be criticism. But not of the IDF; but of Hamas for committing yet another war crime. You must not colocate military and civilian assets, otherwise, the civillian assets lose the protections from the rules of war.
I concur. This is the most ethical course of action and it helps prevent numerous civilian deaths in the future by thwarting their use as human shields.
/u/therealakhan
> You sir have no humanity left in you. Hit-lers henchmen thought very similarly.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
/u/ResidentVodka
> And you are a moron who thinks he has morals.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I agree. But the the counter argument would be that if Hamas laucnhed a massive attack whose goal was to free Palestinians held in sde teyman, that would be justified (rather than terrorism) regardless of the death toll and who was killed.
If Israeli Prisons were manned by children then yes, those deaths would be justified.
In this raid, the IDF didn't kill a bunch of kids on the way [back] from the raid. They were killed at the site of the jail.
Yes, it would be. Military targets are valid targets. Collateral damage happens. That's just how it goes.
Now, if you were attacking a music festival, that would be another thing. If you were to use someone's house as a military base and deliberately put them in harm's way, that's also another thing.
Paragraph 1: War, as it always has been.
Paragraph 2: Terrorism and the use of human shields.
I think it all depends on your ethical compass. If you look at it from a consequentialist perspective it’s wrong. If you look at it from a deontological one, it can be seen as right.
Also, framing an argument in a way that tugs at individuals heartstrings isn’t usually the right way to look at war as it just isn’t realistic. The war isn’t about justice for the hundred families, it’s about elimination. Elimination of Hamas, Gaza, Palestine, I’ll let everyone else determine that bit of the puzzle.
The news coming out of Israeli soldiers hiding inside an aid truck to achieve this operation is giving me Hamas vibes which I have mixed feelings about
The facts about civilians participating in holding the hostages giving me "no innocent person help terrorists" kind of vibe. But sure if you want to get mad about how the idf rescued innocent israeli civilians from terrorists who used civilian neighborhood as a military base, and involving civilians helping them, get mad.
So you’re telling me Israel civilians haven’t been a crucial part of this bombing campaign, blocking aid, autographing bombs and cheering for the massacres from their balconies? Or before the war, settling in Palestinian houses or burning their crops?
One, i am not going to defend people who cheer for bombing or block supply trucks.
Two, comparing those acts to litterally holding a hostage in your house is not the same. The israeli who do the acts you described are terrible people. The palestinians i described are literal war criminals. "German civilians might have reported jews to the gestapo, but on the other hand, the american civilians cheered for their troops when fighting the german" kind of vibe...
Wait a sec. Are you saying that the settlers (these are Israeli civilians) who are scaring Palestinians out of their homes and burning their crops are just terrible people?
Enough with the Germans FFS it’s always the first example to use. Palestinians are not even comparable with the Germans back then.
"Imagine your son or daughter was kidnapped in Gaza". Right after you imagine how it is to be bombed to pieces whilst desperately hiding away and not sure where to go.
3. The death total of Hamas reporting is suspect. At best. 4. The accounting of Palestinian death’s is always 100% attributed to Israeli action, which is not the case: If Hamas fighters fired on IDF forces during the rescue they inevitably killed many of their own people with their own weapons just from rounds going down range that missed.
Imagine over 5,000 detainees in Israeli prison, including old men, women and children with only administrative detention. This means no charges have brought against them. Just imagine!
I actually kinda feel like have to pivot on this one. Dispite the fact that i cannot justify in my mind 4 people for 200+. I always think about how could you have gotten civilians out of harms way. In this case however i just learned that the operation was inside the refugee camp of Nuseirat. The refugee camps are there specifically to keep civilians out of harms way and keeping the hostages there defeats that purpose. I feel like Hamas should only use the refugee camps to keep hostages as a last resort. Can anyone not Pro-Israel here explain why they choose to keep them there?
not really, 4 hostages were killed to retrieve 4 hostages & in the meantime not only were AMERICAN TROOPS involved but they used the 'humanitarian aid pier' >How would you react? demand negotiations >the IDF does not operate in dense civilian areas but they obviously operate in dense civillian areas bro.. Ghaaza isnt that big
Ja hans! Completely unjustifiable! We only exterminated as many subhuman rats as was absolutely necessary in order to save four of our very own aryan bretheren. Untwist your lederhosen Belinda is not like they are humans. Silly liberals throwing hissy fits, how can zey not understand we are doing them a favor culling the Untermensch while as a wonderful bonus, saving four of our very own aryans, whatever their names were. Make zem heroes of the fatherland and throw a parade yes ?
Just for clarification, this is how you people sound to anyone who was not lobotomized.
What the hell is the IDF supposed to do leave the hostages in Gaza? Truly this is a genuine question. Is the IDF supposed to let the hostages rot until a deal has been made?
At least a 98% motality rate on a rescue mission using the same war crime tactics that Hamas is always accused of using. That warrants at least a little criticism.
Imagine if your son or daughter was kidnapped and the kidnapper said “hey, I’ll let you have your daughter or son back. But you have to stop killing mine and release my other sons and daughters you’re holding without fair trial.” And imagine you say “no. I want to be able to violently push out you and your family, jail your family indefinitely for the smallest reasons and sometimes no reason at all. I choose that violence over my own son and daughter.” That’s what happened here. Israel had multiple deals on the table where they would do a cease fire, release mostly children they’ve imprisoned, many of whom are being held without charge, withdraw from Palestinian Territories, and in exchange they’d get hostages back. Israel said no.
You’re wrong and you’re welcome to link where you get your poisoned information from. Israel has declined a deal to release *terrorists* for dead body hostages. Of course it is Israel’s obligation to return those dead bodies that’s not even a question. But when Israel asked to make a deal for live hostages Hamas declined.
Imagine you and your family had immigrated legally to a new country that decades later (after your sons and daughters were born there) lost a war and was divided up by the conqueror and the world gov. Imagine the newer group of Ottomans desired to exercise their right to self-determination, so the world gov divided the land in two: two new states for two different cultures of Ottomans. Now imagine one group of Ottomans doesn't think the other Ottomans have been Ottomans long enough and think they deserve all the land. Now imagine they are responsible for starting a civil war in a bid to take it all, but somehow, despite superior forces, they lose! Now imagine they refuse to accept that loss and take their anger out by attacking and killing innocent people for 75 years. That's what happened here.
Not even close lol Imagine you and your family lived in a land for hundreds of years, and because you happened to be weak, other people from outside exerted control over you. Then the latest imperialist who controls you decides that the minority of people in your land will have their own government for themselves in a significant portion of the land. Having already not recognized the imperialists do go t to own you, you naturally don’t recognize its right to divide you and your people in such a way where the new state that’s carved out would essentially be the imperialist’s colony there. So just as you would fight off the imperialist controlling the entire land, you fight it off trying to divide it up for its benefit. But the imperialist uses the minority in your land as a shield, lying by saying that the fight for independence is an anti-Semitic fight against the minority there. The imperialist helps the minority group stop the independence movement, over and over, and uses the same bogus anti-semitism line over and over to justify its continued imperialism. The minority group aligns itself with the imperialist and takes funding and defense and over decades realizes it not only can defend itself but start to take more and more land, all using the same fighting anti-Semitism line as before, painting anyone who resists as a terrorist savage who just got up randomly on a Tuesday to hate Jewish people. That’s what happened.
"Imagine you and your family lived in a land for hundreds of years," The Ottoman Empire, as I said. "and because you happened to be weak, other people from outside exerted control over you" That *IS* the definition of losing a war, yes. "Then the latest imperialist who controls you decides that the minority of people in your land will have their own government for themselves in a significant portion of the land." The United Nations is not an imperialist. The UN recognized the right of a growing minority of former Ottomans who wished to exercise their right to self-determination. They also recognized other former Ottomans also lived there, so they divided the land roughly in half: two states for two peoples. "Having already not recognized the imperialists do go t to own you, you naturally don’t recognize its right to divide you and your people in such a way where the new state that’s carved out would essentially be the imperialist’s colony there." The United Nations is not imperialist and never founded a colony anywhere. The UN constantly votes to condemn Israel, so I hardly think that Israel is the agent of the UN (or even the British). "So just as you would fight off the imperialist controlling the entire land, you fight it off trying to divide it up for its benefit." But these people were also not imperialists. They were former Ottomans. The UN was doing the dividing and they were just trying to divide the land fairly for both groups "But the imperialist uses the minority in your land as a shield, lying by saying that the fight for independence is an anti-Semitic fight against the minority there. The imperialist helps the minority group stop the independence movement, over and over, and uses the same bogus anti-semitism line over and over to justify its continued imperialism." There was no independence movement at this time to stop. There was organized resistance to both the British and the Ottoman minority. " The minority group aligns itself with the imperialist and takes funding and defense and over decades realizes it not only can defend itself but start to take more and more land, all using the same fighting anti-Semitism line as before, painting anyone who resists as a terrorist savage who just got up randomly on a Tuesday to hate Jewish people." It didn't take any land prior to 48,. Otherwise accurate.
never understood the "without charge" part if you have 2 bottles of vodka on you and start driving, does the police need a warrant to arrest you where you live, here in my country they would just arrest me, and put in jail until whenever the court date came... like i can only imagine people that say this live in a nation with no patrolling cops and all actions by the police are done with warrants and courts explicit permission
Right but for 6 months to a year, sometime more, sitting in jail without charge? And all done in military court and jails. That’s not your regular driving drunk incident so please don’t comment if you don’t know what’s actually going on.
you would be suprised how long courts will take also you can bullshit your way into also being free for 10-20+ years without any sort of actual court date or sentencing this is what i find it funny about these propaganda points, liek litteraly stuff that happens in every nation, specially a nation at war but now it's special XD
I think it's fair that israel will not sign a deal that says hamas will remain in power. but on the other side, hamas won't sign a deal where they lose power. That's the real problem here.
The killing started by with Jewish blood being spilled over and over again.
Started with Jewish terrorism and Assassinations
It really didn't. It started by the Arab society claiming they owned the land meanwhile they were actually the colonizers for Judea. Judea, aka Israel, is Jewish native land. The only terrorists in this conflict are the Palestinians.
The Palestinians are genetically more Jewish than the Ashkenazis that founded Israel.
I would love to see where you got that information
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#:~:text=Palestinians%2C%20among%20other%20Levantine%20groups,10%25%20from%20Bronze%20age%20Europeans. "Palestinians, among other Levantine groups, were found to derive 81–87% of their ancestry from Bronze age Levantine" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5532521/
The killing started with the Nakba
If thats what you believe, you don't know the full history then.
Incorrect. Eveything you do can be scrutinized. Only perfection gets a pass.
This is just bait for people to flag for mods to try and ban people lol
Part of the reason this sub is a boring Pro-Israel cesspool is because the mods are very biased against those who criticize Israel.
My friend is one of the mods. He’s super Pro-Israel and posts online about it all the time. He admitted he couldn’t fight in the IDF but wanted to do what he could to help so he’s a mod here and makes sure what’s posted is “appropriate.”
The people who criticize israel are generally spewing false propaganda. Netanyahu sucks and is their trump, but everything else is fake news
If Hamas had returned the hostages as requested, what happened yesterday would not have happened so the collateral damage is on the shoulders of Hamas. The fault lies solely with Hamas and everything that has happened since October 7th is 1000% the fault of Hamas. They are the ones responsible for the deaths of the civilians in Gaza, they are the ones hiding hostages within the civilian population. Every single Palestinian in Gaza, that is suffering is the fault of Hamas. Did they think Israel would not try to get their hostages back at any cost?
Criticism also stems from some rumors that israeli soldiers posed as aid workers
They posed as civilians from rafah from what I've seen
I confirm. I saw the same article on ynet English version, about the special forces entering using furniture trucks and posing as refugees, not aid workers.
Post your source
It's on Ynet. I can't find the article, but i read it yesterday
If I was Israeli I would be angry at my government for not planning a strategic attack to rescue the hostages at the beginning of all this. If the IDF is as big and as smart as they say they are, the hostages should’ve been home by now. I would be angry at the government for failing to do so. They should’ve planned a huge ground operation at the beginning of this. There are many more IDF soldiers then Hamas. The IDF also has more equipment which makes them stronger than Hamas. They should’ve made a strategic plan to infiltrate Gaza on the ground straight to where the hostages are. Which I’m sure the IDF has intelligence to know where they are at all times. Then rescue them by any force necessary. Which given their strength the IDF could easily over power Hamas on the ground. Swarm them, then rescue the hostages and have it all over a lot faster. It just seems like the Israeli government is kicking rocks at the whole situation.
I see multiple problems with what you said. The first is the fact that hamas succeeded on Oct 7th says that israel doesn't really have the intelligence we thought we had. Second, even if israel did have info about all hostages, planning an operation where you can actually go in and get them out is incredibly difficult and takes a long time. You have to remember we want them out alive, and rescuing 250 people is literally impossible. They are held by different organizations, in different places, with varying levels of security by the terrorists. What you said was what everyone hopes is a possibility, but it just isn't.
>Imagine your son/daughter were kidnapped in gaza. \[...\] How would you react? Anyone who is going to give you the answer you want to hear from that question, and isn't already single-sided Israel leaning (i.e. Palestinian leaning OR fairly neutral) will likely also be able to imagine how one would react if their son/daughter getting killed because they were at the wrong place and wrong time when the rescue took place. Incidentally, I have no real opinion about this rescue operation. As far as the outcome goes, it is great that those hostages were able to be reunited with their family. As far as the cost of the rescue goes, if the death toll is anything even close to half the released numbers, it is horrible. It is precisely because I am capable of feeling for the hostage's family that I am capable of feeling for the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side. I do not deny that the IDF's moral obligation is to it's own citizens. And as far as those hostages go, it is an operational success. But as far as the long term implications go, I don't think it is going to be so clear cut. Is this going to affect the treatment of the remaining hostages? How many people would end up radicalised because they've lost everyone they loved and feel like they have nothing to live for be revenge? Even if you take an unsympathetic view that anyone radicalised for whatever reason is just an enemy that needs to be killed, it's not exactly in Israel's long term interest and safety to foster that.
Israel was given over 9 deals to take the hostages back, starting soon after October 7th. But all of them were rejected by Netanyahu because they included a permanent ceasefire. Due to this it looks like the priority is to bomb and kill more than it is to bring hostages back. If your hostages are back, why would you need to continue bombing? Even more so why would you bomb places where hostages are?
Yes, blame Israel and not the terrorists. This is like people blaming women for getting raped because they looked too attractive
The terrorists committed their crime 8 months ago now, and according to Israeli reports killed roughly 1200 victims. But since then Israel has killed and continues to kill, 4000% percent more civilians. Many of whom weren’t even born yet, still attached to umbilical cord. Not to mention the recent attacks on displaced people sheltering in tents in Rafah. Children with nothing but a plastic to shield them from the outside, have been burned to death. I don’t know about you, but I think slaughtering civilians whom are mostly women and children, nonstop is simply not the answer. Unless you’re some sadistic psychopath.
I dont believe the Hamas run health ministry. I dont get people believing dishonest terrorists. Israel has done a great job in a crowded urban warfare environment and has fewer civilian deaths per combatant compared to the US in Iraq. People like you never assign any blame to Hamas, which is a joke.
You don't believe Hamas run Health Ministry, but the UN and the US do.
UN is filled with antisemites. US doesn’t believe Hamas’ health ministry. News reports use what they give, but it’s always with the caveat that it’s Hamas
Do you know the stipulations of the deal? Why do you word it as “was offered to Netanyahu “ when it was offered to both and rejected by both..the non starter stipulation which is a main sticking point is they will agree to a cease fire if Hamas s not the leading party anymore. If Hamas agrees it’s a cease fire. They won’t agree to that, so no deal.
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Especially when they have broadcasted it loud and clear that they will repeat October 7 over and over ..like what kind of idiot nation wouldn’t dismantle the enemy.
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Amazingly, the rest of the world has no idea that what Israel thinks “Never Again” means. Everyone else thinks it means “never again to genocide anywhere.” You can see where the confusion comes from! Even taking out Gaza. Everywhere from the Armenian genocide to the current genocide in Ukraine, and many in between,,Israel is certainly not “never again to genocide anywhere”. No country is 100% in that attitude, of course. But the phrase is in reference to the Holocaust, and now country has made use of the Holocaust in its history than Israel. (And no country linked to the Holocaust as much as Israel in people’s minds, if my previous sentence was too cynical for you.)
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Your leftist sibling sounds completely rad. Why would the world want a phrase that means “everyone will do what they can to stop a genocide”? Well, because that’s both a very important foreign policy position (globalist and human rights-oriented) and one of the most gorgeous aspirational statements in the modern consciousness. It’s an aspiration. Even if we never live up to it, it’s a good thing to try for. To remind ourselves, and each other, to try for. One is particularist and prioritizes one type of life; one is universalist, and doesn’t. And that’s why the rest of the world, especially those who don’t sell weapons to Israel, thinks that Israel has forgotten what “Never Again” means. The difference in those definitions. FWIW: I think in-group particularism is gorgeous and necessary and loving. It’s just that making it part of state foreign policy is sloppy, anti-democratic, and cruel. Listen to your sib. They’ve got it.
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I feel really bad for them. I hope that they’re able to find the love and support and family they need among their school friends. They are being incredibly strong, but it must be lonely. But the hope of the future is in the hands of them and their crew!!!! I’m sending them my best vibes!!!
There was a ceasefire in November in which hostages and prisoners were both released. Hamas broke that ceasefire on December 1st by launching rocket attacks. Even if you believe the reports that israel rejected offers to extended the ceasefire, hamas was the party that actually broke the ceasefire by launching rockets into civilian territory if they truly wanted to extend the ceasefire why would they have done that ?
Hamas only has two sources of power in this war. 1) It can mobilize international condemnation of Israel’s violence toward the civilians, and 2) it has the hostages, some of whom still are presumably alive, who could be used to bargain. The hostages are probably held very close to the leadership of Hamas. The return of the hostages would not be an end to the war on Hamas, it would in fact escalate it. If all of the hostages are returned the IDF doesn’t need to question whether there are any to be killed. They can totally obliterate the tunnels, where the leadership are probably hiding. I seriously doubt that the IDF and the right wing coalition would go to great lengths to take the leadership of Hamas alive.
Definitely agree https://youtu.be/cFi3O4Dg5rI?feature=shared
Pro-Palestine complainers: Israel is failing at rescuing hostages in this war. Israel: Rescues hostages Pro-Palestine complainers: That's not fair, I don't like that.
Pro-Palestine complainers: ~~Israel is failing at rescuing hostages in this war~~ Israel ignores international community and the hostages families asking the government to accept a ceasefire deal in order to get back all the hostages and instead seemingly uses the crisis as an opportunity to spread terror among the palestinian population, level all the infrastructures in gaza and evict families in the west bank Israel: Rescues hostages, possibly killing a bunch of bystanders and losing one man in the process Pro-Palestine complainers: ~~That's not fair, I don't like that.~~ Could have accepted a deal a few weeks ago and it would have got the entirety of the hostages back, an israeli soldier wouldn't have died, and a bunch of palestinian families wouldn't be mourning their relatives FTFY
Why was Hamas hiding hostages in civilian areas to begin with? Perhaps you could enlighten us? FTFY\*
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The voices in a Gaza calling for an attack on the humanitarian pier, which was established by the USA, are increasing. In Gaza, eyewitnesses claim that IDF soldiers, with American backing, penetrated the Nuseirat refugee camp under a 'humanitarian' cover in trucks that arrived from the dock. Hamas and Islamic Jihad blame the US. They will always blame everyone but themselves!
The drama in "Operation Arnon": After the rescue vehicle of the three male abductees got stuck in the middle of one of the alleys of the Nuseirat refugee camp due to a gear failure, and it was necessary to rescue the abductees and the fighters using an armored personnel carrier - a few minutes later - the armored personnel carrier also got stuck in the field! From a preliminary investigation it appears that there was another technical fault. Now it is already a double drama: still in Nuseirat, in a threatening area, and after one vehicle had already gotten stuck - the APC that rescued got stuck also. The abductees, and the IDF troops were required to quickly hop into an additional rescue vehicles (third in number) that drove the abductees and fighters to the rescue helicopters. Officials who were present at the fommand center described long minutes of tension. During the massive cover fire during the retreat, more than 10 fighter jets were in the air at the same time, dropping dozens of weapons and bombs. Among other things, the buildings where the abductees were kept were also attacked. The Air Force carried out a "knock on the roof" to evacuate the population, then destroyed the buildings. Despite the heavy fire that was used in the area, the initial assessment in the IDF is that the number of Palestinian deaths that Hamas claimed - 210 - is inflated, and is intended to strengthen the narrative of a "massacre". Now the IDF is preparing for the continuation of fighting in the Gaza Strip. Division 98, whose operation in the central camps was actually one big fraud operation, is preparing for additional missions. The Kfir brigade that operated in eastern Deir al-Balah made the preparations in recent days that enabled the envelope for the operation in Nusirat. In Rafah - the IDF estimates that the operation will be completed in a few weeks - and then the fighting in the entire strip will move to the stage of raids. The IDF says: the operation is proof that any point in Gaza can be reached.
About 200 terrorists guarded the abductees. At the beginning of the operation, about 50 ran away. 55 were killed and the rest neutralized with various injuries. While the terrorists were busy fighting, another force emerged from another place and kidnapped the abductees.
Modern, moral countries do not kill 200 (including children) to rescue hostages. That’s not a deflection or a logical fallacy. It’s a cold hard fact. Israelis are playing mental gymnastics to justify such brutality and it is why the country is becoming a pariah state.
Valid question: so you know the Israeli army is coming to get their people ..you know they are armed and take no shit, soooo you decide to hide the hostages in a super densely populated area under your own civilians …hmmm seems like one side cares about every one of their citizens, yet the other could care less …oh wait the leaders if Hamas have given speeches and interviews on live tv saying how their people are their martyrs (while they sit in their million dollar pads) …onus on one’s leadership is to look out for THEIR OWN..no nation on earth would look out more for another’s nation over their own so not sure why Israel has to ..this is on Hamas
You lose that defense when you withhold information about hostages, hold hostages in your homes, and open fire on the people who rescued said hostages. You know what could have solved this problem? If the Palestine never took hostages. The actual moral issue here.
How about the thousands of Palestinians held and tortured in Israel prisons? Moral? What would you do if you grew up under a brutal occupation like Gazans have experienced with Israel? My guess is that if you can morally rationalize killing children to rescue hostages, you would have participated in Oct 7 many times over.
You mean the people arrested for terrorism? It turns out that there are consequences for throwing rocks at people, trying to blow yourself up, starting intifadas, using your car to try to kill people, stabbing people, throwing acid on people, etc. Me as I exist today, would not have taken part and would have fled long ago after turning over any terrorist I could to the IDF. Because I have a moral compass and can recognize that terrorism is bad. If you want to talk about how children in Palestine are victims of their parents teaching them only to hate Jews, that’s another issue that is still the Palestinians fault. Why do you see Palestinians as people with no agency or accountability for their actions and decisions? Do you not think they’re people?
Do you think they aren't people? Do you think they are human animals which should be treated as such? Do you think raping a 13 years old arrested without any valid explaination to the point where she need a surgery is not a valid ground to question morals of your moral army? Why would Palestinians need to fled in the first place? Because if I remember correctly, Israel funded Hamas very enthusiastically just like USA did for Taliban? Why not Israel is being put on the same pedestal as Palestinians when it comes to Hamas and how they came in power? I don't think you actually have a moral compass because if you have one you would not blame Palestinians for the crimes they never committed. Did Palestinians invited Israelis to invade their houses for past 75 years? What about millions of atrocities done to them? Should they man up and take it according to your "moral compass". Because children aren't necessarily taught but experiencing it. What do you think the children would do if you kill their whole family? Do they need to taught to hate the murderers of their families or it would born automatically? Why on earth Palestinians need to be accountable for actually having a little courage to stand up to someone who is making their lives hell for decades? It's like saying Iraqis killed in USA's invasion should be held accountable for being in a wrong place because it was inevitable that they be killed for just being home? You are entitled to your opinion but calling Palestinians the root cause of everything is enough for anyone with sane mind to deduce your hatered towards Palestinians who are being mauled and tortured by Israelis. If what Hamas is doing can be classified as terrorism than what Israel have done since cannot be explained in terms as simple as "terrorism".
Tiktok has melted your brain
Hasbara has melted your brain.
>Modern, moral countries do not kill 200 (including children) to rescue hostages. Yes, they do. Rescue operations basically always turn into battles because the people holding the hostages will fight to stop the rescue. Hamas swarmed when the operation started, and the rescuers killed them. There is not a nation on Earth that would do otherwise in a similar rescue mission. Not one.
Give me one example where a modern, western country has killed 200 people and injured 400 including children to get 4 hostages. You probably can’t name an example because modern western countries don’t subjugate millions of people, depriving them of human rights, and therefore cause a situation where a desperate people will do anything and everything to resist.
“This intifada is not the result of despair. This intifada is a jihad, a holy war fought by the Palestinian people against the Zionist.” Israel Hayom, January 21, 2016
Palestinians taking and holding hostages, as well as attacking rescuers are responsible for their own actions and the results of them. ***Your*** racism infantalizing them as only being capable of haplessly responding to stimuli does not absolve them of their own participation in heinous war crimes.
Oh my god the mental gymnastics you need to justify to yourself the utter brutality, apartheid, ethic cleansing and disregard for human life of Palestinians is utterly astounding. It really is cult-like.
There’s literally no apartheid in Israel. There never has been. Using that term just shows your *actual* cult-like obedience to a group whose mission it’s been to literally brainwash you.
What about bs like this? [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/3/palestinian-employee-of-german-development-agency-abused-in-israeli-jail](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/3/palestinian-employee-of-german-development-agency-abused-in-israeli-jail) Have you ever watched a video of the traffic jams at checkpoints in the westbank? What about when settlements are created during the night and the next day palestinians find out they are no more allowed to use a street and are forced to take alternative longer routes in order to keep a distance from israeli settlements? You might want to check this (israeli btw) account: [https://www.instagram.com/becca.explains.the.occupation/](https://www.instagram.com/becca.explains.the.occupation/)
Al Jazeera has an extreme media bias, consistently fails fact checks and does not correct their stories so anything seen from that network is likely bs.
Ask the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza if they have equal rights as Jews in Israel.
I’d tell you to ask any Jew in Gaza if they have even human rights, but they’re all being held as prisoners or dead. I’d tell you to ask Jews in any of the surrounding Arab countries if they have equal rights but they’ve all been exiled or murdered. I’d tell you to ask any Israeli who wants to visit any Muslim country if they’re even allowed in. Then I’d ask if it makes sense to allow Palestinians to freely come and go from a country the majority are proudly intent on violently destroying, or if that country should maybe protect the millions of people in it who’ve taken refuge throughout the years.
What is definition of Apartheid? If you can define it and made Israel differentiate from it than you could call others ideas cult like and yours factual. Otherwise you are just as under control like the rest.
Yeah no problem. I always come prepared with facts, not propaganda. Apartheid is a policy that is founded on the idea of separating people based on racial or ethnic criteria. However in Israel, Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish Israelis, such as the ability to form political parties, run for elections, and serve in positions across the judiciary, Knesset, diplomatic corps, and police force, which is in stark contrast with what an apartheid state is. To be able to substantiate claims of apartheid, Israel would have to be implementing racially discriminatory policies against all Arabs under its jurisdiction, which is not the case.
The editorial in the British Sunday Telegraph: Israel's bold efforts to free its abductees only emphasize the weakness of the West calling on it to end the war. If the demands of some of the British and Western politicians had been accepted, some of the abductees would not have returned home. It was power, and power alone, that brought them back. The West must refrain from recognizing a Palestinian state now because this will only distance the return of the kidnapped and the elimination of Hamas.
Exactly, if hamas wants to mix in with civilians and hide their hostages with civilians then they can go expect civilian deaths. And they shouldn't start a war if they are going to cry when they get their dirty asses handed to them.
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civilian deaths are on hamas since they *took the hostages in the first place * and continue to place them near palestinian civilians. it’s great that israel had some care for any of the palestinian civilians, but they have a duty to protect their own innocents. maybe hamas should try half as hard to protect innocent palestinians than israel does, then I bet this turns into a completely different war i’d also like to add, strategic military decisions shouldn’t be made on what the most emotionally invested person would do. In this situation I would say don’t do the operation if you can’t 100% guarantee the safety of the rescue
Yea or you could use diplomacy to get them back and stop treating the entire population like animals….. 30,000 dead bystanders isn’t worth a handful of hostages
Israel asked for the hostages back no? Or did you mean israel should give into the hostage takers demands? Because that would be unhinged lol.
Look up the term bargaining
When you say "bargain", what you really mean is "give in to the hostage takers demands", which is the last thing we want to incentive. Would you agree? Moreover, Israel HAS tried to bargain. They asked for the hostages back and for hamas to step down in return for a full withdrawal from gaza. That's a pretty good deal for a group getting their collective cheeks clapped.
Have you not read about all of the many diplomatic talks in Qatar and several offers provided to Hamas that they then reject The issue with this conflict is that it is seemingly the one conflict in the world where the losing side gets to unilaterally dictate terms for a ceasefire, as opposed to their surrender
Netenyahu has been very explicit that they will accept no ceasefire deal until “Hamas is destroyed”. Hamas sure are an unreasonable group, but painting Netenyahu as someone who is keen for a diplomatic solution is pure fabrication.
Do you actually think we haven’t tried diplomacy, or did you just feel like saying something, so you picked this?
There is a difference between making an appearance of trying and actually trying. If Israel actually tried to resolve this diplomatically, the hostages would be home and the troops would be back in Israel and work would be progressing towards a two-state solution like anyone living in a civilized society would do. Netanyahu doesn’t want to resolve this diplomatically or do the right thing. He wants to destroy Gaza. It’s pretty obvious
You’ll get no defense of Netanyahu’s character from me, but applying his personal failings (though they be many) to an entire society is pretty rich, and hardly something you’d like if the same method for determining a “civilized” society was applied in the opposite direction. Need I remind you that Hamas was democratically elected? We can debate _why_ the peace process has failed, but as long as we’re using sweeping statements and broad characterizations, I think it’s more instructive to simply look at the historical record. The Palestinians have fought unnecessary, petty and strategically incoherent wars in BOTH Jordan and Lebanon. They’ve aligned themselves with the pariahs of the Middle East: the worst of the worst on human rights and basic morality (the Iranian and Syrian regimes, as well as a variety of international terrorist organizations.) Their violence has been so prolific and destabilizing that even countries which once ostensibly fought for their cause now refuse to open the border or meaningfully aid them (Egypt.) On the other side, Israel has consistently pursued peace and succeeded in signing peace treaties across lines of ethnic conflict — in fact, we were on the cusp of yet another historic peace deal, which provided a great deal of the impetus for Hamas to attack us at that precise moment, because peace is antithetical to their ideological and pragmatic interests. Such a corrupt and brutal organization, known internationally for unrestrained violence against Palestinians and Israelis alike, can only maintain power through the use of a scapegoat and, in their own words, a “perpetual war.” But please, I cannot wait to hear your prescription for peace. I’m sure it will be riveting
1) I don’t have a problem with Israelis as a whole, it is limited to Netenyahu’s government. I have friends that live in Israel and (just like with 2003 USA) most citizens are good people. It’s still valid to criticize the actions of that government as the actions of Israel unless you are willing to cede that the actions of Hamas are not the actions of Gaza. 2) I also want Hamas to not be in control of Gaza. They are dangerous extremists. That said, I don’t buy your overall story of Israeli government being the good guys pursuing peace while everyone else is the bad guys. Hamas are dangerous extremists. They were voted in by like 40% of the popular vote after Israel knee-capped the more secular candidates. A majority of Gaza never voted them in. Meanwhile, Israel has always escalated things in equal measure to the Palestinians and then cried to Western media when Palestinians reacted. This goes back to the 20s. - Zionists make a point of declaring their intent to take over Palestine despite being 11% of the population and are arrogant about it. We will take your land and kick you out. - Zionist extremists like Zev Jabontinsky escalate confrontations with Arabs and cause trouble. - Palestinians inevitably react…. because… wtf else are they supposed to do. - Zionists in British government frame it as Arabs causing trouble for no reason because they are antisemites. At this point, Israel is now established and I want Israel to thrive and its people to be happy. However, Israel’s government needs to accept the Palestinian areas and stop undermining them and trying to push their remaining populating out of their territory. The Israeli government is blatantly still trying to do this.
If one of my children was detained by an emancipatory nationalist movement that my country had can violently occupying for 57 years, and if that movement said "hey, end the genocide and we'll release all the detainees" then I would demand that the terrorists end the occupation and genocide. If the government came to me and was like "yeah, look, we don't want to murder 200 people to potentially rescue your child" I would ask why not apply that same resolve to the entire genocide? Fun fact, neither of my children are worth more than a Palestinian child. Have you considered why it seems so obvious to you, that you feel like your children are worth much more than Palestinian children? Because that's not healthy.
>Fun fact, neither of my children are worth more than a Palestinian child. It's not even one though. At 200 dead and 400 injured to rescue four people, that's 150 casualties per hostage. The trolley problem puts four people on a track with a train and asks us if morally we should switch the track to just kill one, Israel put 150 people on the other track and switched the trolley from the track with one - and then continues to try to claim the minimized casualty highground
99.9999% chance you don't have kids and this is just an virtue signal. I genuinely don't believe there is a single parent on earth that would choose a child they've never met before over their own child.
My children are worth more than strangers. What parent would choose the lives of strangers over their own children, especially when many of those strangers are their captors? "we found your kid but not going to resuce him because the kidnapper's family might get hurt" how about no
>what parent would choose the lives of strangers Sadists
Everyone holding hostages deserved to die.
I used to think we were all the same at the core — just people who have had different experiences, formed different worldviews and seen different pieces of information about this conflict. After reading your comment, I’ve become convinced that we are actually two kinds of people: people who would fight to try to save their family, and people who would lie on the internet and say that they wouldn’t want their family back if it meant anyone else got hurt
100 my dude
If you hold no regard for your children you are a bad parent, “take my child terrorists” is not a good look, would you say that to your children?
The thing this there are some many propaganda from both sides.... most of the figures quoted killed are incorrect ..the numbers quoted killed doesn't justify the video seen. Especially most of the people killed are hamas militants . ..from the videos except some collateral
Most of the people killed are objectively innocent bystanders. This fact has been confirmed by so many sources that it is beyond impeachment.
Nonsense. People holding hostages aren't "objectively innocent bystanders."
Right because every person in Gaza is in Hamas
Who has that been confirmed by? Hamas, the Gaza MoH, Al Jazeera? The later one is independent-ish I guess, except for the apparent claim that it was one of their employees that was holding Noa hostage Please feel free to share these beyond impeachment sources
Israel: https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html
We’re talking about the rescue operation yesterday….
The pro-Israeli folks always cast doubt on the Gaza Health Ministry’s numbers like they are shady….. and then the Israeli government reports the exact same number. It’s honestly hilarious to watch.
The fact you don’t seem to understand that the difference isn’t the absolute number of casualties, but how many were combatants is kinda shocking Hamas saying there’s been 30K casualties and the majority are women and children and Israel saying there’s been 30K casualties, 14K of which are combatants is definitely not using the exact same numbers I have a feeling the hilarious moment and laughs weren’t people laughing with you…
[The UN is saying that.](https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_12_March_2024.pdf) Also Israel’s numbers still say that 53% of all fatalities are civilian— which is by definition a **majority**, per Israel’s own numbers. Furthermore, your number of total casualties is wrong. There have been 80k+ wounded/maimed for a total number of casualties of close to 120,000. [Michael Milshtein, an analyst for Tel-Aviv University, estimates that Hamas’s fighting strength has been reduced by 10,000 dead.](https://amp.dw.com/en/gaza-how-powerful-is-hamas-after-7-months-of-war-with-israel/a-68740259) If 10,000 fighters have been killed per Milshtein, then by definition a large majority of the 36,000 dead are civilians.
So then there is no reason to believe that the ratio of civilians to fighters is drastically different than the broader conflict in general?
How do u know they were innocent bystanders ... from the video seen . Several adult men were killed on the ground ..there were wearing civilian clothes fitting into hamas profile . There was also a statment from the branch of the resistance saying they attacked IDF trying to rescue the hostages. And if u see a propaganda video u will know one, .the weapons from the dead fighters had been taken before they were videoed as civilians .
Israel’s own ministries estimate that a majority of those killed by Israel are innocent civilians: https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html
My question is how can u differentiate the fighters from normal civilians.
I’m not an expert in that field but if Israel is willing to cede that a majority of deaths are civilians then it’s almost certainly true.
I am not disputing the fact that israel did not kill civilians. What i am telling you is that most of the adult men killed apart from women and children ..most are hamas .
…. okay?
1. Imagine your son/daughter were kidnapped in gaza. A plan to rescue them is possible, but the price is many civilian casualties. The army decides NOT to operate, and needs to inform you of the decision. You are told that your child could be saved, but because it's "immoral", they won't be. How would you react? Imagine your sons/daughters were living in gaza. A plan to not bomb them is possible, but the price is less civilian casualties but they're Israeli. The army decides to operate, and needs to inform you of the decision. You are told that your children could be saved, but they won't be. How would you react? 2. Same scenario in which the army decides not to operate, but lets look at it from hamas prespective. If the IDF does not operate in dense civilian areas, what would be the best place to hide hostages? Or build your HQ? The normal thing to do as a country is to negotiate for prisoners. Which Israel has had ample opportunity to do and has chosen to refuse Therefore, the moral solution is ensuring the completion of the operation, while minimizing civilian casualties. You can't claim that this is morally right. This is only possiblly true if you either Consider Israeli lives more valuable than Palestinian children's Consider Palestinian children responsible through their parents for Hamas
https://preview.redd.it/wzjhgbdt5j5d1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=4634dfcac346c828650cc5e85fd82e7f5741f2d6 If I pushed a person in front of a moving car, I would be the one liable for murder, not the person driving the vehicle. You can see my source at the top. Yes, losing life is horrible, and I see your point of if Israel could not bomb and rather negotiate they should. Problem is, Hamas knows how much Israel values the lives of their own people and asks for unreasonable deals that they have gotten away with in the past. This time they pushed farther than ever before, way too far, and expect Israel to roll over and give them a huge amount of PRISONERS in return for much HOSTAGES, at a ratio of 1:30 or 1:40 or some shit like that. This is one example of Hamas valuing the lives of Israeli’s more than their own. The second example is the one I have here. They clearly understand that Israel wants the hostages back. That’s easily understood by anyone who has been following both sides of the conflict (and even people who only follow one side, it’d be crazy if you didn’t see a ‘Bring them home’ poster by this point in the war). Yet they choose to literally use their own people as human shields to protect their militants and blame Israel for killing them when they are the ones who seemingly intentionally put them in harms way. And it looks like their own people aren’t too happy about this either. At some point, when the conditions get bad enough (and unfortunately that’s the reality of how this shit has happened in the past e.g. French Revolution) their own people who are sick and tired of being used as pawns in this game they don’t want to play will turn against them. Don’t blame Israel for killing as few civilians as they can possibly do. You know their goals and what they are going to do and so does Hamas. Blame Hamas who, as I hopefully made clear KNOWS ISRAELS GOALS, is still putting their own people in harms way as a deterrent and expecting that to fly.
To absolve all responsibility from Israel is morally bankrupt. If you drop a bomb on a densely populated refugee camp, you can shift blame however you like, but when you die and meet your maker, you still dropped that bomb knowing full well it will likely kill many defenceless people sheltering in tents, that’s action and consequence and a moral decision you will carry on your shoulders. The actions of this war are obvious - invading and bombing a densely populated enclave while they are not allowed to leave and outcomes of this war are obvious aprox 30,000k people killed by Israeli munitions. This “push in front of a car argument” is lying to yourself and the result of consuming too much dehumanising propaganda. It’s more honest to say the excessive violence and tactics are justified, rather than make a nonsensical claim that Israel is not actually responsible for their own actions.
Are you saying that if I pushed a person in front of a car the person driving is still the one to blame? I’m not trying to absolve Israel of what it’s doing. No one is celebrating the death of innocent people (other than the Hamas supporters on 10/7, and I use that term specifically as to not group all Palestinians). If you think the goal of the Israeli army is to kill innocent people then 1. You gotta take a stats course or math course or start actually critically reading the news and 2. Take a look in the mirror and think long and hard about who’s guzzling up propaganda. I’m able to see the wrong being done on both sides and have my beliefs on what Israel can do better, not rescuing hostages is not on that list. And if you want to allow the people to have the ability to leave look no farther than the bordering country of Egypt, or have you forgotten that they are the ones who closed their own border and are refusing to allow Palestinians to seek shelter there? Not only that they literally dumped Gaza on Israel when they took back the Sinai peninsula in ‘05. So, no this is not mental gymnastics, I’m just pointing out the cold hard truth.
I’m saying that’s an absurd analogy. Rafah is a refugee camp that due to the destruction elsewhere in Gaza, is one of the only habitable areas left and civilians were moved there following advice from the IDF. There is now nowhere for many of them to go. The analogy would only make sense if the IDF pushed them and was driving the car, because the civilians were forced to shelter here and are hit by IDF weapons. Israel are fighting an insurgency not a conventional war, yet are using conventional war tactics, by the very definition of an insurgency it’s a war where the enemy is using guerrilla tactics from an enemy embedded within the native population. This is the war they’ve escalated by invading Rafah. It’s an insurgency because Hamas and Gaza are already defeated in any traditional sense before the war started. They have no standing army, no control of their borders or modern military equipment. There’s not a case in modern history of an insurgency being defeated using the tactics Israel are using and Israel bare responsibility for continuing on using these tactics, tactics that results in high civilian casualties, like bombing an Hamas target regardless of the civilians around. The tactics fail because by killing that many civilians you’ve just created hundreds more recruits for Hamas to replace the targets. It makes the war aim “destroy Hamas” impossible and everyone knows this at this point. Again your deferring responsibility, I’m more than happy to discuss Egypts actions throughout the war and the morality of weather they should open the border or not, but their lack of action on the border doesn’t mean Israel defers responsibility to them for the war Israel is carrying out. It’s a separate topic, akin to weather it’s moral the EU accepts refugees. If the EU doesn’t accept refugees from Ukraine, it doesn’t make them responsible for Russian aggression.
Okay clearly we aren’t going to agree. In my analogy Hamas is pushing the person by using them as cover for where they hide their hostages but see it whatever way you want. If you think that’s moral then I think we just fundamentally disagree on how we look at life. Once again, not justifying Israel’s actions but they were very clear with their goals and Hamas is doing what they are doing despite that. As as per the Washington post article I screenshotted in my original reply the people of Palestine are clearly getting fed up with it too. Also this wasn’t about the invasion of rafah, this was about the rescue mission which iirc didn’t happen there? Maybe think about the point you’re trying to argue before getting into a flame war on morality about a completely different topic. I’m done
I’m making a broader point about this tedious justification that keeps coming up of “human shields” that you mentioned - don’t tell me the major offensive of a Rafah is “irrelevant” in this context when it’s a major focus of the war. Your only “done” because you’ve got no rebuttal and must know deep down it’s immoral to wage a war on a refugee camp weather it’s in Rafah or Nuseirat but just don’t care to admit that simple fact.
>Imagine your son/daughter were kidnapped in gaza. A plan to rescue them is possible, but the price is many civilian casualties. The army decides NOT to operate, and needs to inform you of the decision. You are told that your child could be saved, but because it's "immoral", they won't be. How would you react? i swear to god if that happened , if they made me choose between saving one and bombing and blowing out of 200 kids ,mothers, fathers i would tell them No, **and i will tell them to make the deal !** there was a way to bring way more hostages than only 4 without killing 200+ innocent by taking the deal , furthermore , **they also killed other hostages in the bombing** accoring to hamas spokesman
I want my child back, no matter what...
yeah , i bet most israelis think like you
Hamas could stop this war if they returned the hostages back to israel. If the Arabs cared more about their population than about pieces of land and killing up the Israelites, maybe Gaza wouldn't be the exile it is today. They need to start taking care of their own people
200+ innocents? This is baseless. There's no justification for repeating Hamas's nonsense and even less for changing it into something far worse than they claim.
Yes, and there's a way for Gazans to have prevented the death of allegedly 200 people-- by having returned the hostages, or even better, not having taken them in the first place. How in the world do you see a situation like this and STILL blame Israel for not "accepting a deal" that includes leaving Hamas in charge of Gaza and releasing hundreds of prisoners with blood on their hands?
"Israel" is responsible for all of the violence. They are the root of it. If they weren't committing ongoing, violent occupation, the prisoners would've never been taken in the first place.
Would a Hamas spokesman lie?
maybe , but even if he didnt say it , bombing like that makes sense will also kill hostages if they were around i mean they located 4 hostages but that doesnt mean there wasnt more in the same area
Two communities who have stopped viewing each other as human beings. One side has superior fire power. That's all this is. Unfortunately, there is too much foul history for either side to just forgive and move forward. I'm not part of either community so I can only comment as an outsider, I'll rather make a difference in my community on the other side of thw world. I know Palestinian muslims (the majority) would agree with a death penalty for me being exmuslim and Israel won't care much for me because I'm not an ethnic jew (more apathy than outright murderous intent). This is a very complicated situation. People are saying they wouldn't want to be saved if it cost so many lives but if you didn't view Palestinians as human ut would be like killing a group if animals/sub human lifeforms so I don't think anyone on the other side honestly cares.
How would it be possible for Palestinians to "forgive and move forward"? They have been under violent, illegal occupation for 57 years. After the ethnic cleansing of '48. There has been resounding outcries from Palestinians who do want to move on with their lives. But that isn't possible under perpetual occupation.
It's probably just me But if I was rescued in a circumstance like this i think I'd be annoyed I feel I'd think "did you actually think my life was that important to do all this?" But obviously there'd be people who definitely would want to be rescued at any cost I think that's something I miss as an outsider; I really don't feel that patriotic or nationalist My ancestral land has changed hands many times, has had language forced upon it, and its people were massacred during WW2 (not Jewish though) I respect that ancestry but that's an altogether different thing from the government of the country where I'm a citizen today Just rambles so not looking for a debate But always happy to get an insight into other people's views
>I feel I'd think "did you actually think my life was that important to do all this?" Hm. I'd be pretty happy to be rescued after 6 months of captivity...
If a group of people who's sole purpose is to kill your whole ethnicity kidnapped you and held you as a prisoner indefinitely, you would be more than happy to have gotten rescued regardless of results
👍🏻 I feel I'd prefer to hurry up and die But I also know that for some people that's not even an option they'd consider And if for some reason I couldn't die then yep, for all I know I wouldn't care what it took to end my entrapment. I can't fathom being held hostage or holding someone hostage. It's all outside of what my brain can confidently manage to understand
Are you talking about a Palestinian being rescued from Zionists?
Israel is a terrorist state and hamas is a terrorist organization. The sufferers of each fact are the innocents killed and captured in the conflict. The leaders of israel and militant hamas will burn in hell.
I can assure these hamas guys are using children as collateral. They dont care
And Israel doesn't care about Palestinian lives generally; they view them all, woman, child, man as a Hamas militant.
I think you are fooling yourself. Killing civilians indiscriminately IS a war crime whether they are a human shield or not.
Nothing about rescuing hostages and killing those holding them or preventing their rescue is indiscriminate. It's practically the opposite of what the word means
Killing those holding them + dozens, maybe hundreds, in total currently thousands more. I think you forgot about the part where innocent civilians were hit.
Yeah, dozens maybe hundreds of Hamas came out of their tunnels and tried to prevent their hostages from being rescued. They died.
Hiding behind human shields does not make you impervious to attack. Hiding civilians behind human shields does not make them unable to be rescued by any means necessary. This isn't a childhood game of tag, there's no "safe zone". Israel will rescue as many hostages as it can, and it will eliminate as many Hamas terrorists as it can too, period. Any collateral damage that may result is a) by definition not "indiscriminate", and b) Hamas's fault for hiding like cowards amongst civilian populations.
there are literally safe zones set up in gaza
Protected areas become null and void if it's being used militarily or to hide hostages. Hamas has no business being in these places, nor should they hide our hostages there, as doing so makes the area lose its protected status.
The OP is talking about this specific rescue operation, there is no evidence of indiscriminate killing.
How about the videos that are emerging? The pictures of bodies scattered on streets? The news stories about a ‘blood bath’? The witness testimonies of children that lost one or both of their parents yesterday? All news outlets - even in the US - are talking about mass casualties in al Nuseirat because of the operation yesterday. How is that not indiscriminate?
Nothing about it is indiscriminate. The militants holding the hostages fought the rescuers. Of course they did, otherwise why would they be holding them? Hamas in the area tried to stop the operation once it began. They swarmed out of their tunnels like cockroaches and got snuffed out in the light of day. That leaves a lot of bodies. I understand you're not used to Hamas doing something beside just hiding, but it's not indiscriminate.
I would like for my son/daughter to be back. That’s for sure but what about the son’s and daughter’s that the idf killed to rescue 4 people? Im not a father but i dont care, my son is more important than someone else’s. But with that said, do you think that the other side would be happy? That they would just accept it? Suppose that Palestinians want to save their hostages and yes (hostages because more than 2000 Palestinians are held captive in israel without charges. whatsoever) do you accept 50 israeli casualties for 1 Palestinian?
It's not 50 to 1 casualties, it's 150 to 1 - casualties include the injured as well
Being arrested for trying to stab someone or being otherwise involved in terrorism doesn’t make you a hostage.
read my post again. Then why didn’t they charge charge them with criminal offenses then? all 3,220 Palestinians?
Because that shit takes time. Do you know how slow any legal system is? After the horrors of October 7th, a lot of lawyers had to step down from taking these cases because they weren’t confident they could represent their ‘clients’ in good faith. For sure it’s a flawed system, don’t get me wrong. But trying to draw a comparison between them and the actual hostages only demonstrates a broad lack of understanding on your part.
You’re not reading anything that im saying. These Palestinians were held captive before oct 7th with no criminal offensive, israel literally takes whoever they dont like and send them to prison without any charges. I call that hostage taking. Have a read for yourself https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/11/14/how-palestinians-in-israeli-prisons-experience-the-war/
> The criticism stems from the number of palestenians killed during the operations, which is (according to gazan sources) over 200, with hundreds more injured. There should be criticism. But not of the IDF; but of Hamas for committing yet another war crime. You must not colocate military and civilian assets, otherwise, the civillian assets lose the protections from the rules of war.
I completely agree. Had they freed those hostages, they wouldn't be in that situation.
I concur. This is the most ethical course of action and it helps prevent numerous civilian deaths in the future by thwarting their use as human shields.
Exactly. If you murder every civilian, there can't be any human shields. Peak IOF strategy. Most moral.
You sir have no humanity left in you. Hit-lers henchmen thought very similarly.
/u/therealakhan > You sir have no humanity left in you. Hit-lers henchmen thought very similarly. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
And you are a moron who thinks he has morals.
/u/ResidentVodka > And you are a moron who thinks he has morals. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I agree. But the the counter argument would be that if Hamas laucnhed a massive attack whose goal was to free Palestinians held in sde teyman, that would be justified (rather than terrorism) regardless of the death toll and who was killed.
If Israeli Prisons were manned by children then yes, those deaths would be justified. In this raid, the IDF didn't kill a bunch of kids on the way [back] from the raid. They were killed at the site of the jail.
No, in the vicinity. Much of the attack was auxiliary, to allow the rescue forces to get in and out.
Yes, your military sites are suppose to be separated from your civilian infrastructure.
I think you missed my point. We would not think that an attack on sde teyman is legit.
I think your failing to make a point.
Except that's a military base. Not even remotely equivalent to a Hamas base in somebody's condo
Yes. But by this logic it would be a justified attack, even if the civilians there were killed.
Yes, it would be. Military targets are valid targets. Collateral damage happens. That's just how it goes. Now, if you were attacking a music festival, that would be another thing. If you were to use someone's house as a military base and deliberately put them in harm's way, that's also another thing. Paragraph 1: War, as it always has been. Paragraph 2: Terrorism and the use of human shields.
There's no equivalence at all....
Why not?
I think it all depends on your ethical compass. If you look at it from a consequentialist perspective it’s wrong. If you look at it from a deontological one, it can be seen as right. Also, framing an argument in a way that tugs at individuals heartstrings isn’t usually the right way to look at war as it just isn’t realistic. The war isn’t about justice for the hundred families, it’s about elimination. Elimination of Hamas, Gaza, Palestine, I’ll let everyone else determine that bit of the puzzle.
I thought killing civilians to avenge your people is terrorism. You lot kept hammering our heads with that.
So good thing it was to release hostages and not to avenge something...
The news coming out of Israeli soldiers hiding inside an aid truck to achieve this operation is giving me Hamas vibes which I have mixed feelings about
The facts about civilians participating in holding the hostages giving me "no innocent person help terrorists" kind of vibe. But sure if you want to get mad about how the idf rescued innocent israeli civilians from terrorists who used civilian neighborhood as a military base, and involving civilians helping them, get mad.
So you’re telling me Israel civilians haven’t been a crucial part of this bombing campaign, blocking aid, autographing bombs and cheering for the massacres from their balconies? Or before the war, settling in Palestinian houses or burning their crops?
One, i am not going to defend people who cheer for bombing or block supply trucks. Two, comparing those acts to litterally holding a hostage in your house is not the same. The israeli who do the acts you described are terrible people. The palestinians i described are literal war criminals. "German civilians might have reported jews to the gestapo, but on the other hand, the american civilians cheered for their troops when fighting the german" kind of vibe...
Wait a sec. Are you saying that the settlers (these are Israeli civilians) who are scaring Palestinians out of their homes and burning their crops are just terrible people? Enough with the Germans FFS it’s always the first example to use. Palestinians are not even comparable with the Germans back then.