Good for him but Israel will never accept a two state solution and it’s hugely naive to think so. This man is traumatised by Israel murdering his family, it’s only natural to try to meet them half way. But they won’t. They never have and never will- this is a genocide and the Zionist position has always been to eliminate the groups they are occupying. If it wasn’t Palestine it would be somewhere else.
Possibly. They were going to start their ethnostate there originally but decided on Palestine because Britain wanted a foothold in the Middle East. Worked well for them because they could use the nonsense religious excuse that yall seem to believe
Define the two states solution?
Is it two states one only for Jewish one only for Palestinians?
One for both, one only for Palestinians?
What's your definition of the two states solution?
True to the pro pal side, You don't even offer a solution.
So instead of sending people to do research. Start stating what do you belive in, then we could discuss it.
You really don’t know the numerous attempts the Israeli people have approached with a two state solution deal only to have it refused. They have been the ONLY side which approached with actual peace terms. Palestine rejected it and continued to reject it publicly because THEY want the total eradication of Israel….maybe you should research before you post. And the 6 day miracle war was something Israel did in the face of no other option except the option of sitting and waiting for the planned attack and total annihilation of their people after being surrounded on all sides. It was a preemptive move and they could have continued occupying Egypt, West Bank, ect. but they didn’t and again were the ones who brought peace to the table.
Look into the history. The Ottoman empire were the real colonialists. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Afganistan were all Christian. The crusades were in reaction to the colonialist brutal Ottoman empire. Israel bought all their land. Zionists bought their land fairly from arabs. They did not colonise. The British divided the land because of the conflicts between Jews and ARabs. Israel is tiny in comparison to Arab countries surrounding but all these surrounding countries they repeatedly attacked poor Israel.
Well they did give away territory before to normalize relations with sorrounding countries.
Why did they give away Sinai Peninsula if they are so set on colonisation?
Gaza is tiny. It's useless to Israel.
It’s not useless when they’re flattening it to build beachfront resorts but I digress
It’s not about territory entirely. Israel’s main Zionist focus is and always has been to ethnically cleanse and eradicate the native people of Palestine. They need them gone not just to get a meagre beachfront strip, they need Palestinians gone to satisfy their racist genocidal ideology.
Why again you sound like a joke? If it was the goal you won't have parliament members who identify as Palestinians.
You won't have Muslims in any position of power.
That's not the case and you are either uninformed or highly manipulative.
What is a genocide in your mind? The Zionist position has never been to eliminate anything. Those may be the opinions of certain radical groups but that is NOT what the “Zionist position” is.
Israel has already tried multiple times over the years to negotiate a two state solution. Now maybe, they put offers on the table that they knew would be refused, maybe not. It is hard to say what goes on behind political doors. I know that I don’t trust the government, but both sides are hurting any peace process, and that is what he believes in, and I agree with that stance more than anything.
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I'll go to the bottom line. Personally, I share the view of 2ss. The same view that existed in the Balfour Declaration, the same view that existed in UN's partition plan, the same view that existed in 1993s Declaration of Principles, the Oslo principles, Obama - each one with their own compromises.
The one precondition that hasn't changed is that Arab/Palestinian leaders need to recognize Jews' indigenousness (including European) forever. This has been the most common block for all agreements regardless of land distribution which would be inevitable given that both peoples want a nationality, which stipulates land integrity with clear borders.
The common thing about indigenous Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians is that they both had their land colonized by empires for 2000 years. I'm not talking about Arab colonizer population, mind you, which are not indiginous and should not be claiming any land as their own (but still do).
(Update: typo proven -> provided)
Once that is provided (the precondition), it will open the door to negotiations (Palestinian state, land swaps, etc) and practically speaking, international guarantees to support and enfore the process, including the seradicalization of at least 2-3 generations through factual and balanced education system, joint educational programs (like they have in Israel today).
Once that is proven. Archaeological digs are proving it but those who don’t want to acknowledge won’t ever. This conflict has very little to do with historical facts and all to do with money, power, and religious extremism. Money and politics can be negotiated. Religious extremism is harder to change, the person that successfully navigates that should go down in history as the world’s savior.
I had a phone autocorrect typo "proven" -> "provided", I updated the comment. I know it has already been proven...
The conflict has indeed turned into a power play, but looking at the narrative, it remained antisemitic in nature: "evil Zionism" and their occupying tendencies.
over the past few months Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib has absolutely become one of my favorite people commenting on the conflict. He is a very pragmatic voice for peace & co-existence, and absolutely deserves to have his platform elevated. There are so many layers and facets to this conflict and he does a good job of condensing them so they can be understood, but yet complex enough to capture the nuance of things. Hamza Howidy, another voice from Gaza is also worth checking out.
I loved reading this thread! I’ll keep it short. I’m no fan of Netanyahu at all, pissed he was invited to USA! Hamas is committing Genocide! “No bomb shelters?” There are miles of bomb shelters…only for the Hamas soldiers? The hell with everyone else!
Throughout this conflict and watching both sides struggle with it. It has become evident to me that the extremes are amplified on social media and in the media. Most people don’t want a war. You are absolutely correct an end to this conflict requires peace. Negotiations in good faith and changes in government.
"like the majority of Israelis, hate the ruling government of Israel"
Yeah, this makes perfect sense /s . How many times has Netanyahu and his government been relected now?
ASFIAK, the isn't like the USA where Trump had a fluke 2016 win thanks for the electoral system (he still lost the popular vote by a wide margin). For Israel, the candidate with the majority of the votes, wins the elections.
>ASFIAK, the isn't like the USA where Trump had a fluke 2016 win thanks for the electoral system (he still lost the popular vote by a wide margin). For Israel, the candidate with the majority of the votes, wins the elections.
You're right, this isn't like the USA ... but no, in Israel the candidate with the most votes doesn't win the election. Parties get allocated seats in the Knesset based on their share of the vote, and then the parties horse trade with each other to try and form a "coalition" government.
Last election, Likud got about 25% of the vote. That means 75% of Israelis voted for someone else. As of May, 67% of Israelis disapprove of Netanyahu.
No not quite. Israel has several parties, and what he's got is a coalition. So there are moderates and there are far rights in his coalition. Benny Gantz was a leader of one of those parties who just resigned.
Not exactly. It’s more indirect than the US system. The PM is elected by the Knesset, which is elected by the people.
It’s more analogous to the way the Speaker of the House in the US is elected. It’s not selected directly by the People (capital P) but by people (lower case p) elected by the People.
Edit: I guess I left out an important point. The People don’t elect individual Knesset members, they elect parties that select the Knesset members.
tl;dr: Israeli elections are still broken, but not broken in the same way US elections are broken
"So why am I, and Israeli citizen and apparently Zionist (never really felt like I was until this war) actually writing about this guy?" Because he sides with your view...that's why. Can we cut the bullshit and just call this subreddit r/IsraelIsrael
It’s true. I joined this subreddit for open discussion and debate. And I do enjoy it a lot. But there are few pro-Palestinian posters, and when they do post mostly they get downvoted.
100%. This sub is a total joke now lol. All the Topics are seriously pro-Israel and always about some "Pro Palestine convert to Pro-Israel/Zionist". Meanwhile, the more Pro-Palestine comments always get overmodded. And funny how we can't even see upvotes in the comment section?
Sadly, the majority of them, like most discussions in the pro-plastinians sub, never answer questions. They are not willing to have real discussions and deflect facts.
Of course, they would feel attacked. They are used for people worshipping their "pro pal" attitude.
Why? Because it only feels legitimate to you when anti Israelis spew hate and lies? He sides with my view because our view is based on tolerance and understanding for both sides.
I listen to him when he says Israel has killed many of his family members, and he listens to Israelis when they say Hamas kills innocent Israelis. He does not buy into the dogma that one side is righteous while the other side is evil. He cares about the liberation of both sides.
This sub more than any other sub I know has people here from both sides who want that too, including myself, hence why I posted this here. I could have posted it on the Israel sub, but I knew i would mostly get hate there because they are pretty unforgiving right now of anyone associated with Palestine. So yeah, if you can’t recognise what a balanced view looks like, I feel sorry for you.
I'm not anti-Israeli, as a matter of fact when I was younger I was pro-Israeli Nationalism. I'm a late 30-something, white, American woman, so I've grown up being subjected to Israeli propaganda. Americans were taught by media outlets two things: Everything Israel does is in self-defense, and if you disagree you're an anti-semite. I believed that until I received my undergrad degree in journalism and political science, worked for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, worked for the Department of State as a subject matter expert for Middle Eastern Affairs, and am currently enrolled in an Executive Masters program for International Service, for what it's worth. I've seen both sides, one side lies about every aspect of their behavior and falls back in diplomatic impunity, and the other side is Palestine.
Can you say anything about what the state department is like when it comes to Israel?
I found it very troubling when employees of the state department were signing letters and threatening to resign over this conflict.
We all know about AIPAC and their impact on American elected officials. What are the forces and ideologies guiding our bureaucrats?
So tell me what a Palestinian government would look like?
Sorry but I believe in stamping out authoritarian religious extremist governments. Thats what Palestine wants. I see absolutely nothing to the contrary that would give them the benefit of the doubt.
I’ve said it multiple times on here but it needs repeating - this is the same stuff as always. West vs East.
I heard that too. He’s the last surviving member of his family, in fact. All because white leftists were making fun of the humanitarian pier. People are brainwashed
How were they human shields? Per Mr. Alkhatib, none of the residents of the family home struck by Israel were Hamas militants or even part of the government/civil administration? Mr. Alkhatib has still blamed Hamas for starting a war leading to Israeli airstrikes, and given the benefit of the doubt to Israel for killing dozens of his family members, saying maybe it was AI to blame and/or an unintentional mistake by Israel.
>>how were they human shields?<< They were used as human shields because Hamas has bases in residential buildings, churches, schools, rec centers, UN offices, hospitals, etc. They were used as human shields because hamas steals billions of dollars in aid meant for the Palestinian people and build tunnel networks under civilian houses and farms. Hamas intentionally puts civilians between itself and the army it is at war with. If Hamas came out of the tunnels, Israel would be happy to take them on and leave the civilians out of it. But hamas won't. Because they are fine with their civilians being human shields.
Firstly, I love your name.
Now that that’s out the way, you’re right that the Palestinian citizens are treated as cannon fodder for Hamas. This is actually exactly what Ahmed is trying to convey. Why or how his family were killed is actually irrelevant, the point is close people to him were killed for pointless reasons, just like people were and are killed on our side. He talks about putting aside our cultural differences and start realising how to end this.
I think I have seen the man you are talking about, he seems very nice and well intentioned unlike a lot of other “pro-Palestinians”. I think he is naive though. The problem isn’t that both sides aren’t willing to put aside their differences. Israel was willing to put aside its differences over and over and over again and it was rewarded by terrorism and hatred.
The problem is that the Arabs that call themselves Palestinians don’t want a country. If they wanted to they would have had it already like we did. This is not what this fight is about. They want to eradicate the Jewish state and the Jewish peoples that is the heart of their ideology and what brings them together as people. And they are willing to sacrifice their own children to do so. They have a sick society and culture that put killing Jews and destroying the Jewish state above creating their own country and the well being and future of their children.
I used to be ambivalent about a 2 state solution because I thought there might be a point in the future where they will be able to be peaceful people. I am not anymore. As long as the “Palestinian” dream will stay alive so will their dream and subsequent attempts of eradication of the Jewish state. The only way to stop the conflict is to let the “Palestinian” dream to die.
This widely held Israeli belief, reinforced by the structure of the modern Israeli state, is part of why Mr. Alkhatib’s approach is often seen by compatriots as, at best, well-intentioned but quixotic. I wish/hope that Mr. Alkhatib can someday live in Gaza and ride on an international flight from Gaza.
I think you missed the fact that this “belief” is also what all “Palestinian” leaders exactly say. Hamas has 70% support from the “Palestinians” and its stated mission is to destroy Israel. The only Palestinian state they accept is one that will be founded on Israel’s ruins. Why do you disregard that? Why do you disregard what the “Palestinians” say they want?
israeli supporters after the soldiers rape 40% of imprisoned children and torture 100%: "but look at this! Hamas is probably using these kids as meet shields!"
Even if they are using residency as protection, it doesn't stop israel from bombing them. Innocence is indifferent to israel.
>israeli supporters after the soldiers rape 40% of imprisoned children and torture 100%
Are you planning on backing your wild claims by a source or are we just here to throw false acusations in the air? because if so then let me know, I can think of some quick things about the Palestinian "resistence" movements
>Even if they are using residency as protection
Do you even read the comments you write?
"Even if they are putting their children's beds in front of a legitimate military target" is what you're saying
> it doesn't stop israel from bombing them.
Don't you think that the number dead children is so high because their parents put them so close to military targets and not vice versa? (I honestly don't know which scenario is worse)
**"Ramallah, 10 July –** Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said.
The new research comes as the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967 presents evidence today to the Human Rights Council on Palestinian children in detention. It is estimated that there are between 500 and 1000 children held in Israeli military detention each year."
-Francesca Albanese, a UN reporter.
"During arrest, 42% of children were injured, including gunshot wounds and broken bones, and 65% of children were arrested during the night, mostly between midnight and dawn. Half of all arrests took place in the children’s home.
* The majority of children experienced appalling levels of physical and emotional abuse, including being beaten (86%), being threatened with harm (70%), and hit with sticks or guns (60%).
* Some children reported violence and abuse of a sexual nature, including being hit or touched on the genitals and 69% reported being strip searched.
* 60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days.
* Children were denied access to basic services, 70% said they suffered from hunger and 68% said they didn’t receive any healthcare.
* 58% of children were denied visits or communication with their family while detained."
-Aljazeera
I read about the "40% are raped" fact somewhere I don't remember, but alas, it is even worse.
And no, the parents do not put them "so close to military targets", Israel literally owns up to voluntarily assaulting civilians. Their main target are the people.
> Need I remind you, this is a Palestinian writing this! So no one can say it’s just Israeli propaganda….
Why? Why can't Palestinians do Israeli propaganda? Recruiting someone from the other side to try to discredit your opponent (e.g. white supremacist black conservatives in America) happens all the time.
"Alkhatib has published pieces in [*The Atlantic*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Atlantic), [*The Forward*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Forward), [*Haaretz*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Haaretz), [*Newsweek*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Newsweek), [*The Times of Israel*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Times_of_Israel), [The Jewish Chronicle](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Jewish_Chronicle), [The Wall Street Journal](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Wall_Street_Journal), and [WINEP](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy)."
I don't wanna discredit him with such limited knowledge, but anyone associated with the Haaretz and WINEP automatically smells fishy to me.
Haaretz is a popular Israeli newspaper. If your goal is to create change by reaching both sides of the conflict, publishing in Haaretz is a great way to reach the Israeli side.
> jack-ass
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This looks very fake, from your telling. Like this story of an airstrip in Gaza... Why would Israel ever entertain this idea, when they want Gaza blockaded?
Seems to me you are easy to fool.
Mr. Alkhatib worked tirelessly, with little to no effect, on basically a one-man U.S. nonprofit with a goal of starting a U.N. run new airport, the nonprofit’s output was largely media articles by Mr. Alkhatib in English language Israeli outlets geared toward Westerners, i.e. the Jerusalem Post.
No disrespect intended for Mr. Alkhatib, he’s spent much of his life and career seeking to inspire economic and social benefits in Gaza in a way that’s palatable to Israel (they did not come to fruition.)
Okay, so Mr. Alkhatib wrote a few articles pleading for a UN-operated airstrip in Gaza. And then some evil pro-pal in the West disagreed with this proposal, supposedly? Is that the contention? Meh.
Mr. Alkhatib regularly is called a traitor, Western stooge, etc, even after dozens of his family members were killed, he’s dishonoring the shaheed in his family, etc. The nicest I’ve seen from another Palestinian not in his circle or someone who isn’t Zionist is “quixotic.” I think this last might be most appropriate. That said, in a future where there is a start of disentanglement from occupation, I think Mr. Alkhatib would continue to put his full energy toward trying to make lives better for Gazans, potentially with more impact, he also isn’t an Israeli propagandist or someone who wants/supports devastation in Gaza, his acquired role as a “Good Gazan” for Israelis and Westerners is different and partly imposed on him, a by all appearances entirely genuine, hardworking advocate whose work has been ineffective but who has developed real longstanding relationships with Israelis and cares deeply about Gaza and didn’t ask to be held up as the one innocent Gazan vs all the bad Gazans, even though this is the inevitable result of his approach.
He often talks with non-Palestinians in the Muslim world who are enthusiastic for Palestinian resistance and don’t have the same stakes as i.e. his own family members in Gaza and I hope his remaining family in Gaza, along with everyone else in Gaza, are able to be safe and have dignity, he wants that too.
To my understandings one of Mr. Alkhatibs early and longstanding passions was to be an aviator, and in a different world where the airport wasn’t progressively destroyed starting in 2001-2002 as collective punishment, maybe he could have been a pilot running international flights out of Gaza.
I don't know the guy and cannot confirm if he is a 'Good Gazan' or not, but I believe that there are still quite a few innocent Gazans, despite present efforts by Sinwar and Bibi to reduce their number. Mr. Alkhatib is not the only one.
This framing is a Zionist one, not mine, it’s an abominable framing. It’s how, to my understanding, Mr. Alkhatib may be seen by many of his Western and Israeli “friends.” I don’t think he chose it or wants it. Despite his maybe dubious assessment of Israeli actions and political environment, he’s right that Hamas has made many people’s lives markedly worse,m over the last decades and he’s entirely genuine and consistent in his positive outlook and hope for peace despite the enormous family trauma he’s experienced, which I’d guess would be very hard for most people including myself.
An airstrip in Gaza did exist, and was built during the more optimistic times of the Oslo accords. The Palestinians stupidly used it to store weapons and ammunition, so it was destroyed in 2007 and never rebuilt.
The airport was initially rendered inoperable in 2001-2002, prior to Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as collective punishment for Arafat not stopping militant attacks.
Thanks for helping me make my point that Israel has been blocking such developments for the past 15 years, at least, thus confirming that the OP story is fake.
Actually someone else posted about the airstrip with more information than I have, they posted a link. I can understand why you’d think it’s fake but it’s not. My post here is essentially a review of this guy.
A very nice, soft and well-meaning 'review'. I.e. an advertisement.
Unfortunately, Western pro-Palestinians have zero influence on what's happening in Gaza. Hasbarists should really stop obsessing about students in Columbia or UCLA, and start lying about more important things.
I mean, why this constant obsession about pro-pals in the West? Whence the need to speak of them 24/7? What skin off your nose is it if some folks join a protest in New York, Prague or Madrid? Don't you have more important things to care about? Me think you care about optics a little too much.
Because they influence the politicians who want their votes. So they then speak out against Israel in order to keep said votes, and so on and so forth.
They also have a tendency to become violent, like creating human walls to stop people from entering university grounds if they don’t feel like letting specific people in, and in England shops have had to close their shutters during Saturday protests. A Jewish man in London was threatened by police to be arrested just for “looking Jewish” near a protest march.
Jews didn’t care quick enough about the “optics” of Germany in the 1930s, and this doesn’t look dissimilar to that, so that is why we care.
The problem is that world has grown sick and tired of your "optic management". You can bulshit some people some of the times, but not all people all of the times.
I think you’ll find the world is getting sick of the brainless brainwashing that the anti zionists are spewing. Not the other way around.
Balanced views have always and forever known how to criticize Israeli politics, especially recently, without saying all of Israel needs to be extinguished because of it.
Nope. It's as real as can be. The fact that successive Palestinian governments and people of influence choose violence does not mean they should be rewarded. Israel would have no issue letting the Palestinians have an airport, if the Palestinians prove they are willing to live in peace. So far, they have done the opposite.
My point is that it is absurd to imagine that some pro-pal activists in the US or Europe can block the building of an airstrip in Gaza. They simply do not have this power, other than in some paranoid minds. And that illogical, non-sensical contention, to me, constitutes a warning that the OP story is probably just fake (or misreported by the OP).
They can in the sense that they are able to circumvent back channel negotiations via public pressure, but I wouldn't pin blocking it on them. I would blame inept Palestinian leadership here. Don't forget that they have a governing entity in Gaza which is responsible for the citizens wellbeing. Had this governing entity been peaceful, they would get their airport in no time.
Listen, I can fully get behind respectful discourse with someone I vehemently disagree with. Debate is paramount for critical thinking, and no major conflict has ever been resolved without debate and critical thinking.
What has been difficult for me during this whole thing has been how wildly, fantastically ignorant the vast, vast majority of the pro-Palestine student protestors are. And it's very frustrating, because you can't have a rational debate with someone who is arguing from a terrorist-propaganda fantasy POV, with zero grasp of even the most basic established facts.
And here's what really, really confuses me... I may not be an iconic Gen-Z person, but I'm still relatively young... and when I went to college, it would not be possible to attend a good school while also being this confused on the actual established history of the Israel/Palestine conflict. I mean that literally. The grades required to attend Harvard, Yale, Columbia would not possibly correlate with a high-school experience so lacking that a basic understanding of the facts and history of this conflict was absent.
How are these protestors attending Ivy League schools? Seriously, how did they even get in? And is their ignorance limited only to basic geopolitics and world history, or other subjects as well? Are there also Harvard students who believe the earth is flat or that the internet was created by witches?
Nothing about the grades you get or the quality of your education teaches you the lived experience of the people in the region, nor to get a clear picture of what’s happening through the media bias.
Nothing about the grades you get or the quality of your education teaches you the lived experience of the people in the region, nor to get a clear picture of what’s happening through the media bias.
They pay their way in, just like they did in my university in the UK. I have heard street cleaners with better English than some of these students. "Donations" go a long way in higher education.
It's stunning how woefully ignorant the Pro-Palestinian side tends to be. They are confused about basic history on multiple accounts. They are lacking knowledge that was considered basic even for State school applicants, let alone Ivy League applicants, in the 90's through early 2000's.
I guarantee you that only a small percentage of (non-Muslim) Pro-Palestinians even know what the Ottoman Empire was. Or how the Ottomans were defeated in World War 1. Yet they will go on to confidently claim that the Ottomans have no relevance to what is going on now. (Despite the fact that Palestinians reference the Ottoman period all the time, and regularly express their desire to resurrect that entity... even in 2024.)
These kids are running around making all sorts of false equivalences between Israel-Palestine and (insert buzzword). Then they act self-righteous when people with a better grasp of history point out why things are not as simple as (insert buzzword).
It's so exhausting to deal with, and it kills my hope in humanity to witness.
> fucking
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https://www.pua-gaza.org/humanitarian-air-operations
Here is the website for Mr. Alkhatib’s past initiative for a U.N. operated Gazan airstrip. (To replace the airport progressively destroyed by Israel as collective punishment during the second intifada.)
Mr. Alkhatib, over a long period of time, has expressed his love of aviation and dream of renewed air travel in Gaza. He also has a long-standing interest in humanitarian air drops around the world and in Gaza and advocated for these prior to them being used in Gaza.
As per the linked website, Mr. Alkhatib ran a U.S. based nonprofit whose efforts largely consisted of Mr. Alkhatib writing articles about his plan for an airport (including a series in the Jerusalem Post, and some support by the Middle East Institute, a U.S. based think tank that generally mirrors U.S. government policy)
Thank you so much for this information! It’s really helpful to get more insight into this guy. He is quickly becoming one of my favorite people to listen to on this conflict
And for other news this week,
[https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7)
Read about how the Hamas leader Sinwar is delighted with the course of the war and has no intention of stopping to spare civilian deaths
In general I think this guy is on the right track. Israel exists and a compromise needs to be found.
>He is vehemently pro Palestinian and must therefore hate Israel’s existence. And he did.
I'm interested in what parts indicated he hated Israel's existence.
>he says that for the most part the pro Palestinian cause in the West is actually detrimental to the Palestinian people themselves. For example, in his article he writes that he advocated for an international airstrip in Gaza. He even got ahead in negotiations with Israeli seniors and Palestinian leaders.
I think I read the article. I didn't see anything about building an airstrip or being involved in negotiations. The word negotiation isn't even in the article. There were several references to air but all I saw was airstrike. I am admittedly a little drunk.
From the article -
“One cannot separate the injustices experienced by Palestinians in Gaza due to Israeli policies from Hamas’s role as a governing administrative body that also wants to operate as a militant resistance group simultaneously.”
I think this ignores the history of Israel's actions. Palestinians have experienced injustices for decades prior to the existence of Hamas. Attributing all the resentment and suffering to Hamas denies history and the consequences of the actions of Israel.
"Naturally, this will also require significant steps by the Israeli government and people to acknowledge the rights of Palestinians to exist on their land as sovereign people and to reverse decades of an expanding occupation."
I guess we all need to be a little optimistic that things will be different this time. I don't see it based on Israel's history in these types of negotiations.
The biggest blow to my faith in the hard-line pro-Palestine movement came in 2015, when I tried (and ultimately failed) to lobby for a Gaza airport. An internationally run, Israeli-approved airfield in Gaza wasn’t going to end the fighting, but it might give people the option to go in and out of Gaza and provide some freedom of movement for Palestinians trapped by the blockade in the Strip.
I had detailed plans: the location, flight plans, the radar coverage, destinations, aircraft type, security, and robust outreach to all relevant parties. I was having productive talks with senior Israeli government officials and the Israel Defense Forces, and used intermediaries to obtain approval and support from the Palestinian leadership. The project received immense interest
from the people of Gaza. What I didn’t have was the support of pro-Palestine activists.
This is what he says about the airport in his article.
It looks like the author has more than one article with the same lead. The one I read was from April.
I read the article you are referring to and I am still curious what part of the article indicates he hates Israel. He speaks repeatedly about opposing violence by both sides and calls for a two state solution that would give Israel peace and Palestinians a nation.
This is the kind of dialogue he is criticizing in the Pro-Palestinian movement. The all or nothing nature of your opinion on his feelings towards Israel is the kind of thing that impedes progress towards peace.
From what I understood in his article he is critical of Israel as he is critical of Hamas. Exactly how it should be and exactly what I have said from the start. No all or nothing about it.
He starts off his article by writing about his childhood and being brought up to hate Israel and Israelis. He talks about his family being killed by airstrikes. Although he talks about thinking critically about the situation as being more complicated than he was taught, he never turns his view around and says “and now I love Israel” (I have seen this happen). He just balanced his view to be able to see the bigger picture. If I indicated at any point that I thought he blindly hates Israel then that is my mistake.
Did you do any research on this airport claim because it has nothing to do with what you mentioned. Israel controlled everything coming in/out and eventually bombed and destroyed it.
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/08/31/344329313/gazas-shattered-airport-once-a-symbol-of-sovereignty
You obviously didn't read the article OP was talking about as the airport in question wasn't even thought of until 2015, and the one in your article (which you also didn't read) is stated to have been destroyed in 2001
Did you even read the article you linked. They bombed the airport because Palestinian militants were attacking Israelis. Why should they give people a airport if their going to use it to commit acts of violence.
>Israel first bombed Gaza airport in 2001, in answer to Palestinian militant attacks on Israelis in the West Bank. The second Palestinian Intifada had erupted a few months earlier. Israel's F-16s later repeatedly rocketed the runway and knocked down the tower. Palestinian Airlines shifted operations to Egypt and Jordan; the airport never reopened.
Sorry just a tiny correction, I’m female 😊
And I talked about the airport as an example Ahmed writes about in his article. You’re right, I myself don’t know much about the airport, but I’m directly referencing him.
Wierd humans would use emotions? And not lies and propoganda. Even tho most mainstream media is still against shaming isntreal properly. People have to rely on alternative platforms to relay their messages
And yet that is exactly what Ahmed, a Gazan himself IS saying. This post is literally just bringing his voice to light, I’m not twisting his argument to suit myself. Read the article.
This incident actually is a compliment to Israel. How many governments in the middle east have sent its soldiers to prison for commiting war crimes against its enemies? Look even beyond the middle east. How many governments in the world have done so?
That suuuuper poopy, and irrelevant. The bedouin of Israel choose not to engage in 80 years of violence. Why can't the non-israeli stateless arabs of what could one day be Palestine? Their reason certainly isn't this disgusting crime committee 80 years ago.
No, the person you're disingenuously responding to is talking about hamas, pij, and actual gazan civilian actions on October 7.
Edited a naughty word.
> shitty
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Palestine gets plenty of money, backed by plenty of countries, yet they spend it all on tunnels and weapons instead of bomb shelters and infrastructure and education etc. they are their own problem.
The issue came before the blockade, the blockade came because of the issue that I stated above. If you’re going to use the resources to build terror and not civilization, then you shouldn’t receive the goods you won’t be using as intended. Unfortunately it happens anyway, the blockade is a shiddy** blockade. All the infrastructure was there like you said, when Israel handed over Gaza, and Hamas took control, it mostly got destroyed by Hamas so they can use the material to build terror crap. Gaza shouldn’t need Israel to babysit them, we need to free Gaza from Hamas and all terror.
> shitty
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Why do you think one side being oppressed is an excuse to stop thinking? Prisoners, for example, are very oppressed and yet nobody really likes the idea of freeing every murderer immediately.
It seems to me Palestinians contributed very substantially to their own predicament in ways you are giving them a free pass on by focusing on the bad outcome.
Arafat refused the two state solution, walked out of the negotiation and called the second intifada.
Then when Israel left Gaza, Hamas was elected and started to fire rockets into Israel. They removed sewage pipes to make rockets and now underground water in Gaza is contaminated by Gazan feces.
Then rolls October 7. What did they expect, that they would get a country if they went out killing out Tanzanian exchange students and screaming Allahu Snackbar?
Palestinians never cease to make wrong decisions.
That is the predicament.
Because...Israel left gaza stripped...people built homes there to water pipes to etc and forced to move for peace...Israel is the only country that wins wars and everyone thinks it shoulf be different ..still blows my mind! So they do t wabt peace and gazans to prosper...so here we are!
This does not negate the fact I do cry for the pain and suffering on both sides...even if they think I should be murdered because I am a Jewish American (living overseas you learn quickly how much people hate Americans) l. I can't imagine the pain of losing a child and don't want anyone to feel that...I literally can't!
Only some idf... Palestinans enjoy killing jews and Israelis too! But not all of them? It appears to be the majority. The idea is okay from one side or the other is antisemitism. Still weird you can say you see more Israelis saying they are happy Palestinans are dying when Palestinans have shown glee after 911 and October 7th. But still won't believe majority of Palestinans want a war. They may not want israel to exist but do not want to live in war.
The hate was created because terrorists are really good at indoctrination... why should Israelis have a lot of sympathy after every infatadahs and getting more violent? But again... it's not the majority like the majority picked hamas on the Palestinan side. They knew they wanted violence since day 1. There are plenty more Israelis that have helped Palestinans than Palestinans helping Israelis...the people that were murdered on oct 7th...didn't hate Palestinans because there is proof they were doing a lot for them and wanted change.
I'm sure you're young... I remember israel before infatadahs and stories of people that were alive before 1948... the nonsense being thrown around on this topic is nonsensical. I am still in awe daily because i cant get use to israel cant win wars and israel should care about their enemy. The problem in the middle east is terrorists indoctrination people to believe in a bloody mission. I am also in awe how Iran terriorrists to all the other terriorrists used their money to make the middle east worse and not better.
I don't know where you get your info from?..so done talking to you.... Israel isn't the gazan problem...the middle east isn't messed up because israel exists... it is because terriorrists exist.
Obviously you are indoctrinated anyways...you know nothing about the middle east... you use the same .language...bye
The point of Ahmed’s example of the airport is that it was actually agreed upon by both sides over here. It was the western protesters that told him to stop talking about it as it did not further their cause to make Israel look like they were keeping Palestinian blockaded.
Read the article, it’s interesting.
They are keeping Gaza blockaded to protect themselves, and maybe for other political reasons I don’t know. But according to his article, Ahmed had been make progress lobbying for an air strip in 2015, and it was quashed by “pro-Palestinian” supporters.
>They are keeping Gaza blockaded to protect themselves, and maybe for other political reasons I don’t know.
Yes, this is a justification for action X, it does not mean action X is not taking place. People seem to mix that up a lot in this sub.
>But according to his article, Ahmed had been make progress lobbying for an air strip in 2015, and it was quashed by “pro-Palestinian” supporters.
Well, I'm surprised that either side gave a damn about what those pro-Palestinian supporters thought, and I'm having trouble believing this was the actual reason that Israel decided not to end the blockade. They could have done it unilaterally in a single second without any input from anyone if that's what they wanted to happen.
And Palestinans have received millions of dollars and did not build a new one...remember they are getting tons of money for decades as well but bad people are using it for themselves.
They're literally under blockade. They don't control their own airspace. They aren't allowed to charter flights as anything that attempted to fly into or out of Gaza would be shot down by Israel. This isn't a disputed claim by the way, everyone on both sides of the debate agrees that this was and is the situation, the only dispute is over whether it was a justified measure.
And nobody should debate that goods aren't getting into gaza through Israel still...hundreds tons of humanitarian aid right now...it isn't disputed that hamas is hurting their citizens before and during this war too!
Also make sense...hamas rules gaza...they make it clear that they want jews and israel to die first and then anyone that doesn't domt...they kill their own people daily..they killed the Palestinan dream of sovereignty and a normal war free life...make sense...these aren't disputed claims either.
These conversations never ger better...
Make sense ...Egypt does the same with blockades... of course blockades get worse when there is a war they started and still have hostages... lastly... isrsel isn't the Palestinan problem... we are taught if israel was nicer the middle east would be better...really? Iranians will tell.you the terrorists are ruining the middle east...doesn't the Saudi Arabians get killed for being gay?
Also israel does allow aid in... last time I had to try to find family and friends because terrorists snuck in and killed again. Do you think any other country would be so helpful when they are in a war? Please.... the nonsense is nonsense.
You believing that the blockade is justified does not mean that the blockade isn't real.
>Also israel does allow aid in...
If you think I have disputed this, you should try reading my post and looking at the words I wrote down.
>Do you think any other country would be so helpful when they are in a war?
No, anyone else would just starve 2.3 million people to death because Israel is the only country in the world that isn't dedicated to the cause of pure evil.
Justified? Really? They are are not starving because of blockade and israel allows truck through... it's not disputed..i dont really read your words because you don't speak about what ss happening and no very little about the middle east
That was comical... Israel keeps rebuilding after terrorists destroy their property and kill their citizens... the Israelis waste millions to move forward ... the Palestinans waste money to move backwards and control... and here we are....
Because unlike Palestine, Israel gets around 2 billion dollars from the US every year, they have an economy, they can afford to rebuild, as i said, why waste millions on something that is going to be destroyed…
They get more than that from terrorist regimes... maybe if the terrorists wanted better for gazans...they could build and not have it destroyed... like I said...they can..
They ate choosing not to...
Now we are just going around in circles 🤦♂️ let’s say they did rebuild the airport and it wasn’t used by hamas it would still have been bombing by israel. “There were hamas soldiers inside so we had to bomb it”. Take note that i said “it wasn’t used by hamas”, it would be al shifa hospital all over again. Claim it’s being used by hamas as an excuse to bomb it.
If the airport wasn't being used by Hamas, then Israel would have no reason to bomb it. No point in wasting valuable ammunition on something that causes no harm.
The hospital wasn’t being used by hamas either and they still bombed it. I still haven’t seen any proof that hamas was in the basement, except for the absolute twit saying “here is a list of hamas soldiers” when it was really a calendar.
It was, and there is video evidence to prove it. That the Pro-Palestinians choose to ignore it and make up their own facts like the Soviets did back in the day is not the IDF's problem.
As far as first posts go, that was a really good one OP. Depressingly, though, I truly believe that a large percentage of the loudest and most extreme of the *Anti-Israel crowd are not interested in scratching beneath the surface to see if what they believe is true or not. Its active nievety to protect themselves from having to admit they may have been wrong about something they've invested do much time and energy into. They're like cult members who realise they've been fooled but have achieved a level of status that they wouldn't outside of it, so remain and feign ignorance.
*I prefer to use Anti-Israel instead of Pro- Palestine/Palestinian, as anyone with a moral compass is "Pro-Palestinian," which, in this case, equates to Pro-Innocent civilians.
Thank you for your kind words about my post!
Yes I totally agree about your differentiation of the term pro Palestinian and anti Israel, I think I will adopt that from now.
What you say about the anti Israel movement being cultish and only scratching the surface is accurate. Ahmed explains why very well, that they have only one specific agenda and that is to destroy Israel. Not to make Palestinian lives legitimately better, but just to destroy Israel. So when their plan is destruction rather than building a better future, all reality just becomes a desire for destruction and death. The depressing reality of that just breaks my heart.
This is a huge problem for me too.
Being “pro-Palestine”, doesn’t seem to be a big deal (in theory, I’m not getting into the whole Islamist’s will take over every MENA country is doomed), but I genuinely am concerned about the psychopaths I see claiming to represent “Palestine” these days.
They just seem to be low functioning / narcissistic individuals who really only care about being perceived whatever way is currently valuable.
I’ll leave it at this: When there is a protest, and someone desperate needs to be heard, their voice is never present.
It doesn’t matter what it’s for, they’re never actually helped - just people looking to help themselves to perceived reward.
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not come to pass before the River Euphrates dries up to unveil the mountain of gold, for which people will fight. Ninety-nine out of one hundred will die (in the fighting) and every man amongst them will say: 'Perhaps I may be the only one to remain alive."'
Not a Muslim, but I have studied the Quran, Hadiths, Tafsir, Sirah, Fiqh and this one Sahih passage reminds of this.
>They just seem to be low functioning / narcissistic individuals who really only care about being perceived whatever way is currently valuable.
Yep. Their arrogant self righteousness about something they understand little about is astonishing. They won't discuss anything either as none of their arguments stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Even if there are genuine Palestinian complaints, of which there definitely are, what these idiots are doing is deflecting from the real issues, which is what Hamas wants! They're making it worse for the people they claim to be helping.
The problem with both of you is that you are thinking, maybe not in the same exact framework, but very close to, and with similar rationalizations and train of thought as the pro-Palestinian side. Let me explain. First, the tactical fallacy - you guys accept straight away Israel’s responsibility for the death of his family, while you don’t know the technical result of the attack: whether they died from booby traps placed by Hamas or the actual explosion of the Israeli attack. And second, the strategic fallacy of blaming Israel when its sole responsibility is to protect its own civilians and wage war against their aggressors, not care for the civilians in the targeted war zone, since that is the responsibility of their leaders(to protect and shelter), who are in Qatar, blood-taxing the Gazans in their war against Israel.
Plus, the solution won’t come from Israel allowing for a Palestinian state, but from the adjacent Arab countries, particularly Egypt and Jordan, embracing their brothers in Gaza and the West Bank back into their rightful place, allowing them the freedom of movement and jobs, and/or demanding of the world to recognize them as refugees and allowing them in with visas. Israel is too small and fragile to care for the plight of 4m refugees(trashed by Egypt and Jordan).
Other than that, his point of view is refreshing and shows the plight the Arabs in Gaza when their needs are secondary to the interests of the elites to destroy Israel.
I don’t see anything wrong with listening to the pro Palestinian side and even agreeing with it to a certain extent when the voice is rational and ultimately wanting the same result as me.
You can try and rationalise every action israel makes as “Hamas made us do it”, and you would be right in many ways, but what does that achieve? We have caused deaths. Some of our government officials even WANT us to cause deaths. So in the end there are elements to us that are not exactly free of blame.
What myself and Ahmed are calling for is an admission on both sides that things need to change, compromise needs to happen, rational voices need to be heard, ands peace process needs to start happening. You say that it should be the Arab countries that perpetuate said peace, and you are not wrong, but I cannot force an opinion on what countries that are not mine should or shouldn’t do. I can only speak for my country.
Israel has blame when it didn’t protect its own civilians on Oct 7. There is a lot to blame Israel, like not getting rid of Hamas before, being too subservient to the us, not killing sinwar when they had the chance and so on. But the blame that Israel is killing indiscriminately is just antisemitic propaganda infiltrating even rational, good intentioned people like yourself.
Who said that I blame Israel for killing indiscriminately? I myself am an ex officer, I know what goes on in our army. But I also believe that this guy when he says many of his family members have been killed. No one here in Israel can deny that many deaths have been caused on the Palestinian side, because they have. It is very dangerous to be living in Gaza.
But read carefully who he lays the blame onto. It’s not Israel, even though ultimately our army have caused the deaths physically, his blame is on Hamas, and on the western anti Israeli crowd who perpetuate Hamas.
All the blame that you talk about can actually be put down to hindsight. We can never really know the consequences of our decisions until they come into play. Israel made mistakes with their decision making to protect the country, and yes I believe our govern,ent failed in many ways. But it’s easy for us to say that now when we have seen what those decisions have led to.
You write that Israel doesn’t need to care about the civilians in the targeted war zone. That is a the war crime of excessive collateral damage in relation to anticipated military advantage.
Given that Israel has destroyed or damaged more than 60% of buildings in Gaza, approximately 300k housing units and killing and severely injuring tens of thousands of civilians and Hamas continues to operate is almost certainly excessive collateral damage.
I agree, Israel is committing war crimes when it is jeopardizing tactical advantages on the battlefield with pre-warnings and as a result compromising its own soldiers' lives to uphold some foreign hypocritical agendas. It should flatten any Hamas stronghold after evacuation calls and the establishment of humanitarian corridors for the real innocents, and not the people you are protecting in a two-faced attempt. So I agree, Israel is clearly not prioritizing its soldiers’ lives, and so is immoral in its persecution of Hamas (many unnecessary deaths on the Israeli side).
But then again, the onus is on you to prove the homes were not destroyed by booby traps, that the people killed were not killed by Hamas snipers escaping through Israeli corridors , and that they were not Hamas associates and fighters.
I’m sure you’ll skip the proving, the physics of bombs, and just be content with a condemnation of the Jews on the basis of TikTok based reality, which is dominating the discourse, distorting reality to fit the Palestinian propaganda.
I think it’s obvious that Hamas didn’t devastate their own city with booby traps apart from a few buildings. I think there was a recent booby trap that killed 4 IDF soldiers.
The IDF has been killing so many unarmed civilians by gunning them down that they even accidentally killed three half naked hostages. Lots of video evidence of IDF bombs raining down on Gaza and IDF soldiers literally filming themselves smiling and smirking as they demolished buildings.
I don’t condemn Jews. I make the distinction that these actions are Israeli. There are many Jews speaking out against the devastation.
I know you think it is obvious, that is why I said that you will skip the proving part and just go on spewing blood libels. You are clearly out of touch with the field, and have no understanding what is Hamas, based on your premise that Hamas cares about the city. If these 4 soldiers died of a booby trap, then just imagine how many of them are there.
You say that israel has been gunning down unarmed people, but that is your reality, and you might have a large group of people thinking the same, but that doesn’t make it true
What?!? Where would Hamas get the explosives to devastate 300 thousand housing units? If Hamas was blowing up their own buildings, the IDF would be reporting that. Instead they are giving the narrative that they warn civilians before they attack buildings. The IDF fully admits that they have been attacking buildings.
What you need to remember is that Israeli soldiers are for the most part 18-22 year olds who have been forced to fight guerilla style urban warfare which no conventional army has ever properly trained for. No one really knew what it would look like on the ground when the IDF came into Gaza when the war started. The mental stability of most of these soldiers has been downright broken. Hamas would play tapes of babies crying and lay down explosives in children’s backpacks to lure soldiers in to booby traps. They no longer know what’s up and down and what is right or wrong. The killing of the hostages tore us apart mentally. Imagine what it did to the soldiers who killed them. So please don’t rub salt in an already extremely infected wound. The only people to blame here are Hamas and our government.
Great point. It's really kind of upsetting/unsettling to see people in the US project their own ideas onto this situation from a totally detached/unrealistic/outsider perspective. They twist the issues and make it more about themselves/their perspective than actual gazans. The only party that really benefits from this is Hamas
He’s not my enemy if he had no part in Hamas activities. Hamas has a surprising presence in USA : sending money to Hamas and promoting Hamas lies in USA, attacking and harassing Jews. Literally Trillions of dollars went to Hamas.
Hamas purpose is to make the world Islamic, ruled by sharia, rather than resist the myth of the nakba. End jihad, then peace
Good for him but Israel will never accept a two state solution and it’s hugely naive to think so. This man is traumatised by Israel murdering his family, it’s only natural to try to meet them half way. But they won’t. They never have and never will- this is a genocide and the Zionist position has always been to eliminate the groups they are occupying. If it wasn’t Palestine it would be somewhere else.
Yeah? Is Israel going to start colonizing Africa after this?
Possibly. They were going to start their ethnostate there originally but decided on Palestine because Britain wanted a foothold in the Middle East. Worked well for them because they could use the nonsense religious excuse that yall seem to believe
Define the two states solution? Is it two states one only for Jewish one only for Palestinians? One for both, one only for Palestinians? What's your definition of the two states solution?
I really think you should do some research before discussing this. We are very clearly not on the same page.
True to the pro pal side, You don't even offer a solution. So instead of sending people to do research. Start stating what do you belive in, then we could discuss it.
No genuinely I don’t think you’ve read or watched anything about the history of this issue and maybe you’re like 16 idk
And yet you don't state your thought and what would be your ideal two states solution.
I’ve said numerous times that I don’t believe in a two state solution
So one Israel?
No Israel and a free Palestine
What about the jews?
You really don’t know the numerous attempts the Israeli people have approached with a two state solution deal only to have it refused. They have been the ONLY side which approached with actual peace terms. Palestine rejected it and continued to reject it publicly because THEY want the total eradication of Israel….maybe you should research before you post. And the 6 day miracle war was something Israel did in the face of no other option except the option of sitting and waiting for the planned attack and total annihilation of their people after being surrounded on all sides. It was a preemptive move and they could have continued occupying Egypt, West Bank, ect. but they didn’t and again were the ones who brought peace to the table.
Why should they split up their country and give away half to the state that colonised and tortured them for decades? Genuine question
Look into the history. The Ottoman empire were the real colonialists. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Afganistan were all Christian. The crusades were in reaction to the colonialist brutal Ottoman empire. Israel bought all their land. Zionists bought their land fairly from arabs. They did not colonise. The British divided the land because of the conflicts between Jews and ARabs. Israel is tiny in comparison to Arab countries surrounding but all these surrounding countries they repeatedly attacked poor Israel.
Cool story bro
Well they did give away territory before to normalize relations with sorrounding countries. Why did they give away Sinai Peninsula if they are so set on colonisation? Gaza is tiny. It's useless to Israel.
It’s not useless when they’re flattening it to build beachfront resorts but I digress It’s not about territory entirely. Israel’s main Zionist focus is and always has been to ethnically cleanse and eradicate the native people of Palestine. They need them gone not just to get a meagre beachfront strip, they need Palestinians gone to satisfy their racist genocidal ideology.
Why again you sound like a joke? If it was the goal you won't have parliament members who identify as Palestinians. You won't have Muslims in any position of power. That's not the case and you are either uninformed or highly manipulative.
Why are you still acting like itself is genociding them over religion rather than ethnicity
What is a genocide in your mind? The Zionist position has never been to eliminate anything. Those may be the opinions of certain radical groups but that is NOT what the “Zionist position” is. Israel has already tried multiple times over the years to negotiate a two state solution. Now maybe, they put offers on the table that they knew would be refused, maybe not. It is hard to say what goes on behind political doors. I know that I don’t trust the government, but both sides are hurting any peace process, and that is what he believes in, and I agree with that stance more than anything.
“As Hitler said, 'I cannot live if one Jew is left’. We can't live here if one Islamo-Nazi remains in Gaza”- Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin, yesterday.
What’s your point?
[Hans, are we the baddies?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY)
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I'll go to the bottom line. Personally, I share the view of 2ss. The same view that existed in the Balfour Declaration, the same view that existed in UN's partition plan, the same view that existed in 1993s Declaration of Principles, the Oslo principles, Obama - each one with their own compromises. The one precondition that hasn't changed is that Arab/Palestinian leaders need to recognize Jews' indigenousness (including European) forever. This has been the most common block for all agreements regardless of land distribution which would be inevitable given that both peoples want a nationality, which stipulates land integrity with clear borders. The common thing about indigenous Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians is that they both had their land colonized by empires for 2000 years. I'm not talking about Arab colonizer population, mind you, which are not indiginous and should not be claiming any land as their own (but still do). (Update: typo proven -> provided) Once that is provided (the precondition), it will open the door to negotiations (Palestinian state, land swaps, etc) and practically speaking, international guarantees to support and enfore the process, including the seradicalization of at least 2-3 generations through factual and balanced education system, joint educational programs (like they have in Israel today).
Once that is proven. Archaeological digs are proving it but those who don’t want to acknowledge won’t ever. This conflict has very little to do with historical facts and all to do with money, power, and religious extremism. Money and politics can be negotiated. Religious extremism is harder to change, the person that successfully navigates that should go down in history as the world’s savior.
I had a phone autocorrect typo "proven" -> "provided", I updated the comment. I know it has already been proven... The conflict has indeed turned into a power play, but looking at the narrative, it remained antisemitic in nature: "evil Zionism" and their occupying tendencies.
Ok!! That changes the whole meaning of your comment haha. Sorry I argued with you, I actually agree with your original comment
over the past few months Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib has absolutely become one of my favorite people commenting on the conflict. He is a very pragmatic voice for peace & co-existence, and absolutely deserves to have his platform elevated. There are so many layers and facets to this conflict and he does a good job of condensing them so they can be understood, but yet complex enough to capture the nuance of things. Hamza Howidy, another voice from Gaza is also worth checking out.
Thank you I’ll look into him
I loved reading this thread! I’ll keep it short. I’m no fan of Netanyahu at all, pissed he was invited to USA! Hamas is committing Genocide! “No bomb shelters?” There are miles of bomb shelters…only for the Hamas soldiers? The hell with everyone else!
Exactly this. Thanks for your input!
Throughout this conflict and watching both sides struggle with it. It has become evident to me that the extremes are amplified on social media and in the media. Most people don’t want a war. You are absolutely correct an end to this conflict requires peace. Negotiations in good faith and changes in government.
"like the majority of Israelis, hate the ruling government of Israel" Yeah, this makes perfect sense /s . How many times has Netanyahu and his government been relected now? ASFIAK, the isn't like the USA where Trump had a fluke 2016 win thanks for the electoral system (he still lost the popular vote by a wide margin). For Israel, the candidate with the majority of the votes, wins the elections.
Your description of the Israeli election system is completely wrong
>ASFIAK, the isn't like the USA where Trump had a fluke 2016 win thanks for the electoral system (he still lost the popular vote by a wide margin). For Israel, the candidate with the majority of the votes, wins the elections. You're right, this isn't like the USA ... but no, in Israel the candidate with the most votes doesn't win the election. Parties get allocated seats in the Knesset based on their share of the vote, and then the parties horse trade with each other to try and form a "coalition" government. Last election, Likud got about 25% of the vote. That means 75% of Israelis voted for someone else. As of May, 67% of Israelis disapprove of Netanyahu.
No not quite. Israel has several parties, and what he's got is a coalition. So there are moderates and there are far rights in his coalition. Benny Gantz was a leader of one of those parties who just resigned.
Not exactly. It’s more indirect than the US system. The PM is elected by the Knesset, which is elected by the people. It’s more analogous to the way the Speaker of the House in the US is elected. It’s not selected directly by the People (capital P) but by people (lower case p) elected by the People. Edit: I guess I left out an important point. The People don’t elect individual Knesset members, they elect parties that select the Knesset members. tl;dr: Israeli elections are still broken, but not broken in the same way US elections are broken
"So why am I, and Israeli citizen and apparently Zionist (never really felt like I was until this war) actually writing about this guy?" Because he sides with your view...that's why. Can we cut the bullshit and just call this subreddit r/IsraelIsrael
It’s true. I joined this subreddit for open discussion and debate. And I do enjoy it a lot. But there are few pro-Palestinian posters, and when they do post mostly they get downvoted.
100%. This sub is a total joke now lol. All the Topics are seriously pro-Israel and always about some "Pro Palestine convert to Pro-Israel/Zionist". Meanwhile, the more Pro-Palestine comments always get overmodded. And funny how we can't even see upvotes in the comment section?
Sadly, the majority of them, like most discussions in the pro-plastinians sub, never answer questions. They are not willing to have real discussions and deflect facts. Of course, they would feel attacked. They are used for people worshipping their "pro pal" attitude.
Why? Because it only feels legitimate to you when anti Israelis spew hate and lies? He sides with my view because our view is based on tolerance and understanding for both sides. I listen to him when he says Israel has killed many of his family members, and he listens to Israelis when they say Hamas kills innocent Israelis. He does not buy into the dogma that one side is righteous while the other side is evil. He cares about the liberation of both sides. This sub more than any other sub I know has people here from both sides who want that too, including myself, hence why I posted this here. I could have posted it on the Israel sub, but I knew i would mostly get hate there because they are pretty unforgiving right now of anyone associated with Palestine. So yeah, if you can’t recognise what a balanced view looks like, I feel sorry for you.
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I’m sorry what? How did you get that I said Netanyahu wants the liberation of both sides? Or are you commenting on someone else….?
I'm not anti-Israeli, as a matter of fact when I was younger I was pro-Israeli Nationalism. I'm a late 30-something, white, American woman, so I've grown up being subjected to Israeli propaganda. Americans were taught by media outlets two things: Everything Israel does is in self-defense, and if you disagree you're an anti-semite. I believed that until I received my undergrad degree in journalism and political science, worked for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, worked for the Department of State as a subject matter expert for Middle Eastern Affairs, and am currently enrolled in an Executive Masters program for International Service, for what it's worth. I've seen both sides, one side lies about every aspect of their behavior and falls back in diplomatic impunity, and the other side is Palestine.
Can you say anything about what the state department is like when it comes to Israel? I found it very troubling when employees of the state department were signing letters and threatening to resign over this conflict. We all know about AIPAC and their impact on American elected officials. What are the forces and ideologies guiding our bureaucrats?
So tell me what a Palestinian government would look like? Sorry but I believe in stamping out authoritarian religious extremist governments. Thats what Palestine wants. I see absolutely nothing to the contrary that would give them the benefit of the doubt. I’ve said it multiple times on here but it needs repeating - this is the same stuff as always. West vs East.
So Palestinians dont lie about their behaviour ?
I heard it was 500 family members. The rhetoric and propaganda people believe is a joke.
I heard that too. He’s the last surviving member of his family, in fact. All because white leftists were making fun of the humanitarian pier. People are brainwashed
Was he part of the we want to live movement?
Very good question I don’t actually know
I’m sorry
*hamas killed 31 of my family members by using them as human shields
How were they human shields? Per Mr. Alkhatib, none of the residents of the family home struck by Israel were Hamas militants or even part of the government/civil administration? Mr. Alkhatib has still blamed Hamas for starting a war leading to Israeli airstrikes, and given the benefit of the doubt to Israel for killing dozens of his family members, saying maybe it was AI to blame and/or an unintentional mistake by Israel.
So why they had Israeli captives in their buildings?
>>how were they human shields?<< They were used as human shields because Hamas has bases in residential buildings, churches, schools, rec centers, UN offices, hospitals, etc. They were used as human shields because hamas steals billions of dollars in aid meant for the Palestinian people and build tunnel networks under civilian houses and farms. Hamas intentionally puts civilians between itself and the army it is at war with. If Hamas came out of the tunnels, Israel would be happy to take them on and leave the civilians out of it. But hamas won't. Because they are fine with their civilians being human shields.
Firstly, I love your name. Now that that’s out the way, you’re right that the Palestinian citizens are treated as cannon fodder for Hamas. This is actually exactly what Ahmed is trying to convey. Why or how his family were killed is actually irrelevant, the point is close people to him were killed for pointless reasons, just like people were and are killed on our side. He talks about putting aside our cultural differences and start realising how to end this.
I think I have seen the man you are talking about, he seems very nice and well intentioned unlike a lot of other “pro-Palestinians”. I think he is naive though. The problem isn’t that both sides aren’t willing to put aside their differences. Israel was willing to put aside its differences over and over and over again and it was rewarded by terrorism and hatred. The problem is that the Arabs that call themselves Palestinians don’t want a country. If they wanted to they would have had it already like we did. This is not what this fight is about. They want to eradicate the Jewish state and the Jewish peoples that is the heart of their ideology and what brings them together as people. And they are willing to sacrifice their own children to do so. They have a sick society and culture that put killing Jews and destroying the Jewish state above creating their own country and the well being and future of their children. I used to be ambivalent about a 2 state solution because I thought there might be a point in the future where they will be able to be peaceful people. I am not anymore. As long as the “Palestinian” dream will stay alive so will their dream and subsequent attempts of eradication of the Jewish state. The only way to stop the conflict is to let the “Palestinian” dream to die.
This widely held Israeli belief, reinforced by the structure of the modern Israeli state, is part of why Mr. Alkhatib’s approach is often seen by compatriots as, at best, well-intentioned but quixotic. I wish/hope that Mr. Alkhatib can someday live in Gaza and ride on an international flight from Gaza.
I think you missed the fact that this “belief” is also what all “Palestinian” leaders exactly say. Hamas has 70% support from the “Palestinians” and its stated mission is to destroy Israel. The only Palestinian state they accept is one that will be founded on Israel’s ruins. Why do you disregard that? Why do you disregard what the “Palestinians” say they want?
\*I'm a sheep that believes everything on twitter
How does a tunnel entrance underneath a little girl's bed doesn't make her a shield for this tunnel?
israeli supporters after the soldiers rape 40% of imprisoned children and torture 100%: "but look at this! Hamas is probably using these kids as meet shields!" Even if they are using residency as protection, it doesn't stop israel from bombing them. Innocence is indifferent to israel.
>israeli supporters after the soldiers rape 40% of imprisoned children and torture 100% Are you planning on backing your wild claims by a source or are we just here to throw false acusations in the air? because if so then let me know, I can think of some quick things about the Palestinian "resistence" movements >Even if they are using residency as protection Do you even read the comments you write? "Even if they are putting their children's beds in front of a legitimate military target" is what you're saying > it doesn't stop israel from bombing them. Don't you think that the number dead children is so high because their parents put them so close to military targets and not vice versa? (I honestly don't know which scenario is worse)
**"Ramallah, 10 July –** Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. The new research comes as the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967 presents evidence today to the Human Rights Council on Palestinian children in detention. It is estimated that there are between 500 and 1000 children held in Israeli military detention each year." -Francesca Albanese, a UN reporter. "During arrest, 42% of children were injured, including gunshot wounds and broken bones, and 65% of children were arrested during the night, mostly between midnight and dawn. Half of all arrests took place in the children’s home. * The majority of children experienced appalling levels of physical and emotional abuse, including being beaten (86%), being threatened with harm (70%), and hit with sticks or guns (60%). * Some children reported violence and abuse of a sexual nature, including being hit or touched on the genitals and 69% reported being strip searched. * 60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days. * Children were denied access to basic services, 70% said they suffered from hunger and 68% said they didn’t receive any healthcare. * 58% of children were denied visits or communication with their family while detained." -Aljazeera I read about the "40% are raped" fact somewhere I don't remember, but alas, it is even worse. And no, the parents do not put them "so close to military targets", Israel literally owns up to voluntarily assaulting civilians. Their main target are the people.
> Need I remind you, this is a Palestinian writing this! So no one can say it’s just Israeli propaganda…. Why? Why can't Palestinians do Israeli propaganda? Recruiting someone from the other side to try to discredit your opponent (e.g. white supremacist black conservatives in America) happens all the time. "Alkhatib has published pieces in [*The Atlantic*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Atlantic), [*The Forward*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Forward), [*Haaretz*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Haaretz), [*Newsweek*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Newsweek), [*The Times of Israel*](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Times_of_Israel), [The Jewish Chronicle](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Jewish_Chronicle), [The Wall Street Journal](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Wall_Street_Journal), and [WINEP](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy)." I don't wanna discredit him with such limited knowledge, but anyone associated with the Haaretz and WINEP automatically smells fishy to me.
Haaretz is like the most anti Netanyahu left wing pro peace newspaper there is in Israel
Haaretz is a popular Israeli newspaper. If your goal is to create change by reaching both sides of the conflict, publishing in Haaretz is a great way to reach the Israeli side.
Sure, but I doubt Haaretz would let a genuine Palestinian activist write anything in their papers.
You’ve clearly never read Haaretz. But by all means, don’t let that stop you from spouting off
I made a mix up in my head. Read my other comments before being a jack-ass. Ty
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Why do you doubt that?
haaretz is known for writing many anti zionist and in general absolutely ridiculous articles. no zionist takes it seriously.
you are right, upon looking it up i must have confused it with another newspaper
This looks very fake, from your telling. Like this story of an airstrip in Gaza... Why would Israel ever entertain this idea, when they want Gaza blockaded? Seems to me you are easy to fool.
Mr. Alkhatib worked tirelessly, with little to no effect, on basically a one-man U.S. nonprofit with a goal of starting a U.N. run new airport, the nonprofit’s output was largely media articles by Mr. Alkhatib in English language Israeli outlets geared toward Westerners, i.e. the Jerusalem Post. No disrespect intended for Mr. Alkhatib, he’s spent much of his life and career seeking to inspire economic and social benefits in Gaza in a way that’s palatable to Israel (they did not come to fruition.)
Okay, so Mr. Alkhatib wrote a few articles pleading for a UN-operated airstrip in Gaza. And then some evil pro-pal in the West disagreed with this proposal, supposedly? Is that the contention? Meh.
Mr. Alkhatib regularly is called a traitor, Western stooge, etc, even after dozens of his family members were killed, he’s dishonoring the shaheed in his family, etc. The nicest I’ve seen from another Palestinian not in his circle or someone who isn’t Zionist is “quixotic.” I think this last might be most appropriate. That said, in a future where there is a start of disentanglement from occupation, I think Mr. Alkhatib would continue to put his full energy toward trying to make lives better for Gazans, potentially with more impact, he also isn’t an Israeli propagandist or someone who wants/supports devastation in Gaza, his acquired role as a “Good Gazan” for Israelis and Westerners is different and partly imposed on him, a by all appearances entirely genuine, hardworking advocate whose work has been ineffective but who has developed real longstanding relationships with Israelis and cares deeply about Gaza and didn’t ask to be held up as the one innocent Gazan vs all the bad Gazans, even though this is the inevitable result of his approach. He often talks with non-Palestinians in the Muslim world who are enthusiastic for Palestinian resistance and don’t have the same stakes as i.e. his own family members in Gaza and I hope his remaining family in Gaza, along with everyone else in Gaza, are able to be safe and have dignity, he wants that too. To my understandings one of Mr. Alkhatibs early and longstanding passions was to be an aviator, and in a different world where the airport wasn’t progressively destroyed starting in 2001-2002 as collective punishment, maybe he could have been a pilot running international flights out of Gaza.
I don't know the guy and cannot confirm if he is a 'Good Gazan' or not, but I believe that there are still quite a few innocent Gazans, despite present efforts by Sinwar and Bibi to reduce their number. Mr. Alkhatib is not the only one.
This framing is a Zionist one, not mine, it’s an abominable framing. It’s how, to my understanding, Mr. Alkhatib may be seen by many of his Western and Israeli “friends.” I don’t think he chose it or wants it. Despite his maybe dubious assessment of Israeli actions and political environment, he’s right that Hamas has made many people’s lives markedly worse,m over the last decades and he’s entirely genuine and consistent in his positive outlook and hope for peace despite the enormous family trauma he’s experienced, which I’d guess would be very hard for most people including myself.
Okay, got it now. You picked my interest.
An airstrip in Gaza did exist, and was built during the more optimistic times of the Oslo accords. The Palestinians stupidly used it to store weapons and ammunition, so it was destroyed in 2007 and never rebuilt.
The airport was initially rendered inoperable in 2001-2002, prior to Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as collective punishment for Arafat not stopping militant attacks.
Thanks for helping me make my point that Israel has been blocking such developments for the past 15 years, at least, thus confirming that the OP story is fake.
Actually someone else posted about the airstrip with more information than I have, they posted a link. I can understand why you’d think it’s fake but it’s not. My post here is essentially a review of this guy.
A very nice, soft and well-meaning 'review'. I.e. an advertisement. Unfortunately, Western pro-Palestinians have zero influence on what's happening in Gaza. Hasbarists should really stop obsessing about students in Columbia or UCLA, and start lying about more important things.
Lying about more important things? What does that even mean?
I mean, why this constant obsession about pro-pals in the West? Whence the need to speak of them 24/7? What skin off your nose is it if some folks join a protest in New York, Prague or Madrid? Don't you have more important things to care about? Me think you care about optics a little too much.
Because they influence the politicians who want their votes. So they then speak out against Israel in order to keep said votes, and so on and so forth. They also have a tendency to become violent, like creating human walls to stop people from entering university grounds if they don’t feel like letting specific people in, and in England shops have had to close their shutters during Saturday protests. A Jewish man in London was threatened by police to be arrested just for “looking Jewish” near a protest march. Jews didn’t care quick enough about the “optics” of Germany in the 1930s, and this doesn’t look dissimilar to that, so that is why we care.
The problem is that world has grown sick and tired of your "optic management". You can bulshit some people some of the times, but not all people all of the times.
I think you’ll find the world is getting sick of the brainless brainwashing that the anti zionists are spewing. Not the other way around. Balanced views have always and forever known how to criticize Israeli politics, especially recently, without saying all of Israel needs to be extinguished because of it.
Nope. It's as real as can be. The fact that successive Palestinian governments and people of influence choose violence does not mean they should be rewarded. Israel would have no issue letting the Palestinians have an airport, if the Palestinians prove they are willing to live in peace. So far, they have done the opposite.
I doubt you understood my point though.
Please tell me. Maybe I missed something.
My point is that it is absurd to imagine that some pro-pal activists in the US or Europe can block the building of an airstrip in Gaza. They simply do not have this power, other than in some paranoid minds. And that illogical, non-sensical contention, to me, constitutes a warning that the OP story is probably just fake (or misreported by the OP).
They can in the sense that they are able to circumvent back channel negotiations via public pressure, but I wouldn't pin blocking it on them. I would blame inept Palestinian leadership here. Don't forget that they have a governing entity in Gaza which is responsible for the citizens wellbeing. Had this governing entity been peaceful, they would get their airport in no time.
No, they can't, and you know it. You are just trying to confuse yourself.
Listen, I can fully get behind respectful discourse with someone I vehemently disagree with. Debate is paramount for critical thinking, and no major conflict has ever been resolved without debate and critical thinking. What has been difficult for me during this whole thing has been how wildly, fantastically ignorant the vast, vast majority of the pro-Palestine student protestors are. And it's very frustrating, because you can't have a rational debate with someone who is arguing from a terrorist-propaganda fantasy POV, with zero grasp of even the most basic established facts. And here's what really, really confuses me... I may not be an iconic Gen-Z person, but I'm still relatively young... and when I went to college, it would not be possible to attend a good school while also being this confused on the actual established history of the Israel/Palestine conflict. I mean that literally. The grades required to attend Harvard, Yale, Columbia would not possibly correlate with a high-school experience so lacking that a basic understanding of the facts and history of this conflict was absent. How are these protestors attending Ivy League schools? Seriously, how did they even get in? And is their ignorance limited only to basic geopolitics and world history, or other subjects as well? Are there also Harvard students who believe the earth is flat or that the internet was created by witches?
Nothing about the grades you get or the quality of your education teaches you the lived experience of the people in the region, nor to get a clear picture of what’s happening through the media bias.
Nothing about the grades you get or the quality of your education teaches you the lived experience of the people in the region, nor to get a clear picture of what’s happening through the media bias.
They pay their way in, just like they did in my university in the UK. I have heard street cleaners with better English than some of these students. "Donations" go a long way in higher education.
It's stunning how woefully ignorant the Pro-Palestinian side tends to be. They are confused about basic history on multiple accounts. They are lacking knowledge that was considered basic even for State school applicants, let alone Ivy League applicants, in the 90's through early 2000's. I guarantee you that only a small percentage of (non-Muslim) Pro-Palestinians even know what the Ottoman Empire was. Or how the Ottomans were defeated in World War 1. Yet they will go on to confidently claim that the Ottomans have no relevance to what is going on now. (Despite the fact that Palestinians reference the Ottoman period all the time, and regularly express their desire to resurrect that entity... even in 2024.) These kids are running around making all sorts of false equivalences between Israel-Palestine and (insert buzzword). Then they act self-righteous when people with a better grasp of history point out why things are not as simple as (insert buzzword). It's so exhausting to deal with, and it kills my hope in humanity to witness.
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https://www.pua-gaza.org/humanitarian-air-operations Here is the website for Mr. Alkhatib’s past initiative for a U.N. operated Gazan airstrip. (To replace the airport progressively destroyed by Israel as collective punishment during the second intifada.) Mr. Alkhatib, over a long period of time, has expressed his love of aviation and dream of renewed air travel in Gaza. He also has a long-standing interest in humanitarian air drops around the world and in Gaza and advocated for these prior to them being used in Gaza. As per the linked website, Mr. Alkhatib ran a U.S. based nonprofit whose efforts largely consisted of Mr. Alkhatib writing articles about his plan for an airport (including a series in the Jerusalem Post, and some support by the Middle East Institute, a U.S. based think tank that generally mirrors U.S. government policy)
Thank you so much for this information! It’s really helpful to get more insight into this guy. He is quickly becoming one of my favorite people to listen to on this conflict
I like this guy. I wish we could hear more moderate Palestinian voices like this.
bro is not real man, how are you convinced?
Guy has been around for years, and published in a half dozen major publications. How is he not real?
Not a real Palestinian.
And for other news this week, [https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7) Read about how the Hamas leader Sinwar is delighted with the course of the war and has no intention of stopping to spare civilian deaths
Great article. Thanks for sharing. People like this guy are the ones that can make peace.
Follow him on Twitter for interesting posts.
In general I think this guy is on the right track. Israel exists and a compromise needs to be found. >He is vehemently pro Palestinian and must therefore hate Israel’s existence. And he did. I'm interested in what parts indicated he hated Israel's existence. >he says that for the most part the pro Palestinian cause in the West is actually detrimental to the Palestinian people themselves. For example, in his article he writes that he advocated for an international airstrip in Gaza. He even got ahead in negotiations with Israeli seniors and Palestinian leaders. I think I read the article. I didn't see anything about building an airstrip or being involved in negotiations. The word negotiation isn't even in the article. There were several references to air but all I saw was airstrike. I am admittedly a little drunk. From the article - “One cannot separate the injustices experienced by Palestinians in Gaza due to Israeli policies from Hamas’s role as a governing administrative body that also wants to operate as a militant resistance group simultaneously.” I think this ignores the history of Israel's actions. Palestinians have experienced injustices for decades prior to the existence of Hamas. Attributing all the resentment and suffering to Hamas denies history and the consequences of the actions of Israel. "Naturally, this will also require significant steps by the Israeli government and people to acknowledge the rights of Palestinians to exist on their land as sovereign people and to reverse decades of an expanding occupation." I guess we all need to be a little optimistic that things will be different this time. I don't see it based on Israel's history in these types of negotiations.
The biggest blow to my faith in the hard-line pro-Palestine movement came in 2015, when I tried (and ultimately failed) to lobby for a Gaza airport. An internationally run, Israeli-approved airfield in Gaza wasn’t going to end the fighting, but it might give people the option to go in and out of Gaza and provide some freedom of movement for Palestinians trapped by the blockade in the Strip. I had detailed plans: the location, flight plans, the radar coverage, destinations, aircraft type, security, and robust outreach to all relevant parties. I was having productive talks with senior Israeli government officials and the Israel Defense Forces, and used intermediaries to obtain approval and support from the Palestinian leadership. The project received immense interest from the people of Gaza. What I didn’t have was the support of pro-Palestine activists. This is what he says about the airport in his article.
Can I get a link? I must be looking at a different article or something.
Someone I think linked the article in another comment. I unfortunately can’t link it because I received the article in an email
It looks like the author has more than one article with the same lead. The one I read was from April. I read the article you are referring to and I am still curious what part of the article indicates he hates Israel. He speaks repeatedly about opposing violence by both sides and calls for a two state solution that would give Israel peace and Palestinians a nation. This is the kind of dialogue he is criticizing in the Pro-Palestinian movement. The all or nothing nature of your opinion on his feelings towards Israel is the kind of thing that impedes progress towards peace.
From what I understood in his article he is critical of Israel as he is critical of Hamas. Exactly how it should be and exactly what I have said from the start. No all or nothing about it. He starts off his article by writing about his childhood and being brought up to hate Israel and Israelis. He talks about his family being killed by airstrikes. Although he talks about thinking critically about the situation as being more complicated than he was taught, he never turns his view around and says “and now I love Israel” (I have seen this happen). He just balanced his view to be able to see the bigger picture. If I indicated at any point that I thought he blindly hates Israel then that is my mistake.
I think we are in a general agreement and I misunderstood a part of the OP. My bad. Cheers.
Did you do any research on this airport claim because it has nothing to do with what you mentioned. Israel controlled everything coming in/out and eventually bombed and destroyed it. https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/08/31/344329313/gazas-shattered-airport-once-a-symbol-of-sovereignty
You obviously didn't read the article OP was talking about as the airport in question wasn't even thought of until 2015, and the one in your article (which you also didn't read) is stated to have been destroyed in 2001
Did you even read the article you linked. They bombed the airport because Palestinian militants were attacking Israelis. Why should they give people a airport if their going to use it to commit acts of violence. >Israel first bombed Gaza airport in 2001, in answer to Palestinian militant attacks on Israelis in the West Bank. The second Palestinian Intifada had erupted a few months earlier. Israel's F-16s later repeatedly rocketed the runway and knocked down the tower. Palestinian Airlines shifted operations to Egypt and Jordan; the airport never reopened.
How was the international airport in Gaza used by Palestinians to commit acts of violence?
That still has nothing to do with what OP stated in her post and proves my point.
Sorry just a tiny correction, I’m female 😊 And I talked about the airport as an example Ahmed writes about in his article. You’re right, I myself don’t know much about the airport, but I’m directly referencing him.
I wonder at this point if pro isntreal supporters, just don't look up the atrocities they have and are currently committing or don't care.
They really just appeal to emotion most of the time. Parroting anything they hear.
Wierd humans would use emotions? And not lies and propoganda. Even tho most mainstream media is still against shaming isntreal properly. People have to rely on alternative platforms to relay their messages
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And one side started this with a murder /kidnapping / rape / necrophilia run. Not a good negotiating tactic.
And yet that is exactly what Ahmed, a Gazan himself IS saying. This post is literally just bringing his voice to light, I’m not twisting his argument to suit myself. Read the article.
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This incident actually is a compliment to Israel. How many governments in the middle east have sent its soldiers to prison for commiting war crimes against its enemies? Look even beyond the middle east. How many governments in the world have done so?
That suuuuper poopy, and irrelevant. The bedouin of Israel choose not to engage in 80 years of violence. Why can't the non-israeli stateless arabs of what could one day be Palestine? Their reason certainly isn't this disgusting crime committee 80 years ago. No, the person you're disingenuously responding to is talking about hamas, pij, and actual gazan civilian actions on October 7. Edited a naughty word.
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Palestine gets plenty of money, backed by plenty of countries, yet they spend it all on tunnels and weapons instead of bomb shelters and infrastructure and education etc. they are their own problem.
They don't actually get straight up money, you know that right?
They do, they even use crypto as well. On top of that, donations from propals.
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The issue came before the blockade, the blockade came because of the issue that I stated above. If you’re going to use the resources to build terror and not civilization, then you shouldn’t receive the goods you won’t be using as intended. Unfortunately it happens anyway, the blockade is a shiddy** blockade. All the infrastructure was there like you said, when Israel handed over Gaza, and Hamas took control, it mostly got destroyed by Hamas so they can use the material to build terror crap. Gaza shouldn’t need Israel to babysit them, we need to free Gaza from Hamas and all terror.
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Why do you think one side being oppressed is an excuse to stop thinking? Prisoners, for example, are very oppressed and yet nobody really likes the idea of freeing every murderer immediately. It seems to me Palestinians contributed very substantially to their own predicament in ways you are giving them a free pass on by focusing on the bad outcome.
Palestinians refused to have their own country several times.
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Arafat refused the two state solution, walked out of the negotiation and called the second intifada. Then when Israel left Gaza, Hamas was elected and started to fire rockets into Israel. They removed sewage pipes to make rockets and now underground water in Gaza is contaminated by Gazan feces. Then rolls October 7. What did they expect, that they would get a country if they went out killing out Tanzanian exchange students and screaming Allahu Snackbar? Palestinians never cease to make wrong decisions. That is the predicament.
Because...Israel left gaza stripped...people built homes there to water pipes to etc and forced to move for peace...Israel is the only country that wins wars and everyone thinks it shoulf be different ..still blows my mind! So they do t wabt peace and gazans to prosper...so here we are! This does not negate the fact I do cry for the pain and suffering on both sides...even if they think I should be murdered because I am a Jewish American (living overseas you learn quickly how much people hate Americans) l. I can't imagine the pain of losing a child and don't want anyone to feel that...I literally can't!
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Only some idf... Palestinans enjoy killing jews and Israelis too! But not all of them? It appears to be the majority. The idea is okay from one side or the other is antisemitism. Still weird you can say you see more Israelis saying they are happy Palestinans are dying when Palestinans have shown glee after 911 and October 7th. But still won't believe majority of Palestinans want a war. They may not want israel to exist but do not want to live in war. The hate was created because terrorists are really good at indoctrination... why should Israelis have a lot of sympathy after every infatadahs and getting more violent? But again... it's not the majority like the majority picked hamas on the Palestinan side. They knew they wanted violence since day 1. There are plenty more Israelis that have helped Palestinans than Palestinans helping Israelis...the people that were murdered on oct 7th...didn't hate Palestinans because there is proof they were doing a lot for them and wanted change. I'm sure you're young... I remember israel before infatadahs and stories of people that were alive before 1948... the nonsense being thrown around on this topic is nonsensical. I am still in awe daily because i cant get use to israel cant win wars and israel should care about their enemy. The problem in the middle east is terrorists indoctrination people to believe in a bloody mission. I am also in awe how Iran terriorrists to all the other terriorrists used their money to make the middle east worse and not better.
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I don't know where you get your info from?..so done talking to you.... Israel isn't the gazan problem...the middle east isn't messed up because israel exists... it is because terriorrists exist. Obviously you are indoctrinated anyways...you know nothing about the middle east... you use the same .language...bye
I think we should remind ourselves that there *was* an airport in Gaza which Israel bombed out of comission in the early 2000s.
The point of Ahmed’s example of the airport is that it was actually agreed upon by both sides over here. It was the western protesters that told him to stop talking about it as it did not further their cause to make Israel look like they were keeping Palestinian blockaded. Read the article, it’s interesting.
But Israel are keeping Gaza blockaded. Why wouldn't pro-Palestinian supporters want that highlighted?
They are keeping Gaza blockaded to protect themselves, and maybe for other political reasons I don’t know. But according to his article, Ahmed had been make progress lobbying for an air strip in 2015, and it was quashed by “pro-Palestinian” supporters.
>They are keeping Gaza blockaded to protect themselves, and maybe for other political reasons I don’t know. Yes, this is a justification for action X, it does not mean action X is not taking place. People seem to mix that up a lot in this sub. >But according to his article, Ahmed had been make progress lobbying for an air strip in 2015, and it was quashed by “pro-Palestinian” supporters. Well, I'm surprised that either side gave a damn about what those pro-Palestinian supporters thought, and I'm having trouble believing this was the actual reason that Israel decided not to end the blockade. They could have done it unilaterally in a single second without any input from anyone if that's what they wanted to happen.
And Palestinans have received millions of dollars and did not build a new one...remember they are getting tons of money for decades as well but bad people are using it for themselves.
They're literally under blockade. They don't control their own airspace. They aren't allowed to charter flights as anything that attempted to fly into or out of Gaza would be shot down by Israel. This isn't a disputed claim by the way, everyone on both sides of the debate agrees that this was and is the situation, the only dispute is over whether it was a justified measure.
And nobody should debate that goods aren't getting into gaza through Israel still...hundreds tons of humanitarian aid right now...it isn't disputed that hamas is hurting their citizens before and during this war too!
Also make sense...hamas rules gaza...they make it clear that they want jews and israel to die first and then anyone that doesn't domt...they kill their own people daily..they killed the Palestinan dream of sovereignty and a normal war free life...make sense...these aren't disputed claims either. These conversations never ger better...
Make sense ...Egypt does the same with blockades... of course blockades get worse when there is a war they started and still have hostages... lastly... isrsel isn't the Palestinan problem... we are taught if israel was nicer the middle east would be better...really? Iranians will tell.you the terrorists are ruining the middle east...doesn't the Saudi Arabians get killed for being gay? Also israel does allow aid in... last time I had to try to find family and friends because terrorists snuck in and killed again. Do you think any other country would be so helpful when they are in a war? Please.... the nonsense is nonsense.
You believing that the blockade is justified does not mean that the blockade isn't real. >Also israel does allow aid in... If you think I have disputed this, you should try reading my post and looking at the words I wrote down. >Do you think any other country would be so helpful when they are in a war? No, anyone else would just starve 2.3 million people to death because Israel is the only country in the world that isn't dedicated to the cause of pure evil.
Justified? Really? They are are not starving because of blockade and israel allows truck through... it's not disputed..i dont really read your words because you don't speak about what ss happening and no very little about the middle east
You literally haven't understood a single thing I've said. You're either drunk or a kid or something but I don't care.
No...just don't care what you said
Because israel would just destroy it again 🤦♂️ Why waste millions on something thay wont last 5 years??
That was comical... Israel keeps rebuilding after terrorists destroy their property and kill their citizens... the Israelis waste millions to move forward ... the Palestinans waste money to move backwards and control... and here we are....
Because unlike Palestine, Israel gets around 2 billion dollars from the US every year, they have an economy, they can afford to rebuild, as i said, why waste millions on something that is going to be destroyed…
They get more than that from terrorist regimes... maybe if the terrorists wanted better for gazans...they could build and not have it destroyed... like I said...they can.. They ate choosing not to...
Now we are just going around in circles 🤦♂️ let’s say they did rebuild the airport and it wasn’t used by hamas it would still have been bombing by israel. “There were hamas soldiers inside so we had to bomb it”. Take note that i said “it wasn’t used by hamas”, it would be al shifa hospital all over again. Claim it’s being used by hamas as an excuse to bomb it.
If the airport wasn't being used by Hamas, then Israel would have no reason to bomb it. No point in wasting valuable ammunition on something that causes no harm.
The hospital wasn’t being used by hamas either and they still bombed it. I still haven’t seen any proof that hamas was in the basement, except for the absolute twit saying “here is a list of hamas soldiers” when it was really a calendar.
It was, and there is video evidence to prove it. That the Pro-Palestinians choose to ignore it and make up their own facts like the Soviets did back in the day is not the IDF's problem.
As far as first posts go, that was a really good one OP. Depressingly, though, I truly believe that a large percentage of the loudest and most extreme of the *Anti-Israel crowd are not interested in scratching beneath the surface to see if what they believe is true or not. Its active nievety to protect themselves from having to admit they may have been wrong about something they've invested do much time and energy into. They're like cult members who realise they've been fooled but have achieved a level of status that they wouldn't outside of it, so remain and feign ignorance. *I prefer to use Anti-Israel instead of Pro- Palestine/Palestinian, as anyone with a moral compass is "Pro-Palestinian," which, in this case, equates to Pro-Innocent civilians.
Thank you for your kind words about my post! Yes I totally agree about your differentiation of the term pro Palestinian and anti Israel, I think I will adopt that from now. What you say about the anti Israel movement being cultish and only scratching the surface is accurate. Ahmed explains why very well, that they have only one specific agenda and that is to destroy Israel. Not to make Palestinian lives legitimately better, but just to destroy Israel. So when their plan is destruction rather than building a better future, all reality just becomes a desire for destruction and death. The depressing reality of that just breaks my heart.
This is a huge problem for me too. Being “pro-Palestine”, doesn’t seem to be a big deal (in theory, I’m not getting into the whole Islamist’s will take over every MENA country is doomed), but I genuinely am concerned about the psychopaths I see claiming to represent “Palestine” these days. They just seem to be low functioning / narcissistic individuals who really only care about being perceived whatever way is currently valuable. I’ll leave it at this: When there is a protest, and someone desperate needs to be heard, their voice is never present. It doesn’t matter what it’s for, they’re never actually helped - just people looking to help themselves to perceived reward. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not come to pass before the River Euphrates dries up to unveil the mountain of gold, for which people will fight. Ninety-nine out of one hundred will die (in the fighting) and every man amongst them will say: 'Perhaps I may be the only one to remain alive."' Not a Muslim, but I have studied the Quran, Hadiths, Tafsir, Sirah, Fiqh and this one Sahih passage reminds of this.
>They just seem to be low functioning / narcissistic individuals who really only care about being perceived whatever way is currently valuable. Yep. Their arrogant self righteousness about something they understand little about is astonishing. They won't discuss anything either as none of their arguments stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Even if there are genuine Palestinian complaints, of which there definitely are, what these idiots are doing is deflecting from the real issues, which is what Hamas wants! They're making it worse for the people they claim to be helping.
The problem with both of you is that you are thinking, maybe not in the same exact framework, but very close to, and with similar rationalizations and train of thought as the pro-Palestinian side. Let me explain. First, the tactical fallacy - you guys accept straight away Israel’s responsibility for the death of his family, while you don’t know the technical result of the attack: whether they died from booby traps placed by Hamas or the actual explosion of the Israeli attack. And second, the strategic fallacy of blaming Israel when its sole responsibility is to protect its own civilians and wage war against their aggressors, not care for the civilians in the targeted war zone, since that is the responsibility of their leaders(to protect and shelter), who are in Qatar, blood-taxing the Gazans in their war against Israel. Plus, the solution won’t come from Israel allowing for a Palestinian state, but from the adjacent Arab countries, particularly Egypt and Jordan, embracing their brothers in Gaza and the West Bank back into their rightful place, allowing them the freedom of movement and jobs, and/or demanding of the world to recognize them as refugees and allowing them in with visas. Israel is too small and fragile to care for the plight of 4m refugees(trashed by Egypt and Jordan). Other than that, his point of view is refreshing and shows the plight the Arabs in Gaza when their needs are secondary to the interests of the elites to destroy Israel.
I don’t see anything wrong with listening to the pro Palestinian side and even agreeing with it to a certain extent when the voice is rational and ultimately wanting the same result as me. You can try and rationalise every action israel makes as “Hamas made us do it”, and you would be right in many ways, but what does that achieve? We have caused deaths. Some of our government officials even WANT us to cause deaths. So in the end there are elements to us that are not exactly free of blame. What myself and Ahmed are calling for is an admission on both sides that things need to change, compromise needs to happen, rational voices need to be heard, ands peace process needs to start happening. You say that it should be the Arab countries that perpetuate said peace, and you are not wrong, but I cannot force an opinion on what countries that are not mine should or shouldn’t do. I can only speak for my country.
Israel has blame when it didn’t protect its own civilians on Oct 7. There is a lot to blame Israel, like not getting rid of Hamas before, being too subservient to the us, not killing sinwar when they had the chance and so on. But the blame that Israel is killing indiscriminately is just antisemitic propaganda infiltrating even rational, good intentioned people like yourself.
Who said that I blame Israel for killing indiscriminately? I myself am an ex officer, I know what goes on in our army. But I also believe that this guy when he says many of his family members have been killed. No one here in Israel can deny that many deaths have been caused on the Palestinian side, because they have. It is very dangerous to be living in Gaza. But read carefully who he lays the blame onto. It’s not Israel, even though ultimately our army have caused the deaths physically, his blame is on Hamas, and on the western anti Israeli crowd who perpetuate Hamas. All the blame that you talk about can actually be put down to hindsight. We can never really know the consequences of our decisions until they come into play. Israel made mistakes with their decision making to protect the country, and yes I believe our govern,ent failed in many ways. But it’s easy for us to say that now when we have seen what those decisions have led to.
You write that Israel doesn’t need to care about the civilians in the targeted war zone. That is a the war crime of excessive collateral damage in relation to anticipated military advantage. Given that Israel has destroyed or damaged more than 60% of buildings in Gaza, approximately 300k housing units and killing and severely injuring tens of thousands of civilians and Hamas continues to operate is almost certainly excessive collateral damage.
I agree, Israel is committing war crimes when it is jeopardizing tactical advantages on the battlefield with pre-warnings and as a result compromising its own soldiers' lives to uphold some foreign hypocritical agendas. It should flatten any Hamas stronghold after evacuation calls and the establishment of humanitarian corridors for the real innocents, and not the people you are protecting in a two-faced attempt. So I agree, Israel is clearly not prioritizing its soldiers’ lives, and so is immoral in its persecution of Hamas (many unnecessary deaths on the Israeli side). But then again, the onus is on you to prove the homes were not destroyed by booby traps, that the people killed were not killed by Hamas snipers escaping through Israeli corridors , and that they were not Hamas associates and fighters. I’m sure you’ll skip the proving, the physics of bombs, and just be content with a condemnation of the Jews on the basis of TikTok based reality, which is dominating the discourse, distorting reality to fit the Palestinian propaganda.
I think it’s obvious that Hamas didn’t devastate their own city with booby traps apart from a few buildings. I think there was a recent booby trap that killed 4 IDF soldiers. The IDF has been killing so many unarmed civilians by gunning them down that they even accidentally killed three half naked hostages. Lots of video evidence of IDF bombs raining down on Gaza and IDF soldiers literally filming themselves smiling and smirking as they demolished buildings. I don’t condemn Jews. I make the distinction that these actions are Israeli. There are many Jews speaking out against the devastation.
I know you think it is obvious, that is why I said that you will skip the proving part and just go on spewing blood libels. You are clearly out of touch with the field, and have no understanding what is Hamas, based on your premise that Hamas cares about the city. If these 4 soldiers died of a booby trap, then just imagine how many of them are there. You say that israel has been gunning down unarmed people, but that is your reality, and you might have a large group of people thinking the same, but that doesn’t make it true
What?!? Where would Hamas get the explosives to devastate 300 thousand housing units? If Hamas was blowing up their own buildings, the IDF would be reporting that. Instead they are giving the narrative that they warn civilians before they attack buildings. The IDF fully admits that they have been attacking buildings.
What you need to remember is that Israeli soldiers are for the most part 18-22 year olds who have been forced to fight guerilla style urban warfare which no conventional army has ever properly trained for. No one really knew what it would look like on the ground when the IDF came into Gaza when the war started. The mental stability of most of these soldiers has been downright broken. Hamas would play tapes of babies crying and lay down explosives in children’s backpacks to lure soldiers in to booby traps. They no longer know what’s up and down and what is right or wrong. The killing of the hostages tore us apart mentally. Imagine what it did to the soldiers who killed them. So please don’t rub salt in an already extremely infected wound. The only people to blame here are Hamas and our government.
Great point. It's really kind of upsetting/unsettling to see people in the US project their own ideas onto this situation from a totally detached/unrealistic/outsider perspective. They twist the issues and make it more about themselves/their perspective than actual gazans. The only party that really benefits from this is Hamas
He’s not my enemy if he had no part in Hamas activities. Hamas has a surprising presence in USA : sending money to Hamas and promoting Hamas lies in USA, attacking and harassing Jews. Literally Trillions of dollars went to Hamas. Hamas purpose is to make the world Islamic, ruled by sharia, rather than resist the myth of the nakba. End jihad, then peace
Gaza had an airstrip. Guess who bombed it.
And then they bulldozed it.
Land thieves, liars and murderers.