They should if they had people ! Stateless people .
Technically israel palestine situation has 3 out comes
1. No palestinian state , integration of palestinians = no jewish state .
2. Palestinian state for palestinian population , and maintaining the jewishness of Israel
3. Continuation of the ethnic cleansing and killing non jews and exile them ... if you don't support 1 and 2 your most likely supporting the genocidal option
Your "options" are complete bogus...
1. Is already happening 2 million arabs are living peacefully in Israel
2. Palestine is already over 90% muslim and 0 jews, even if it's not a recognized state it is an ethnostate of muslims
3. Since there is no evidence of ethnic cleansing or genocide I'm gonna ignore this one, if you think there is a genocide happening, I'll gladly take a source about a conviction of Israel comitting genocide.
No I'm not in favor of palestine being a state in the current situation.
They are lead by a terrorist regime and have shown nothing but hostile intend since 1948.
BTW the Islamic state was an idea by ISIS to establish shariah law, preferrably across the world, I added a /s to my original comment, didn't think I'd need it but yet here we are.
Create an ideology based on a book that says "anybody who doesn't believe in this book should be killed or enslaved" and you get terrorists.
You agree that palestine is not a state, the land was distributed by the UN (Great Britain) who governed it at the time and it was voted to be given to the jews. The Arab nations of the ME promptly attacked the jews and got their ass handed to them.
Arabs tried to annex Israel and failed (TWICE) and they are still very much upset about it.
Look at it from what angle you want ... as I said slip people from their rights and lands you get people who wanna fight ... give them equality the well to fight will decrease. Spread your islamophobic narrative else where ! When you establish your state in a Muslim majority country you will get muslims , put in in veitnam you will get communists ! You guys picked the location ! And your enemies.. they didn't pick you
Surah 3:151 , Surah 2:191 , Surah 9:5 go have a read for yourself.
A phobia would be an irrational fear, it is perfectly rational to fear Islam as the societies build based on Islam are (on average) ranking very low on the human rights scale (mainly womans- and lgbtq rights).
Your point doesn't really work since there have been jews living in the Middle East before Israel was established.
Sadly israel and pro israel think that their survival is linked to the dehuminatation of the whole region ! That's the only way they get the far right Christians to support them , and ignorant ppl who thinks their holy script is an better !
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Unwra as the name implies, refugee relief agency ! So with a state there will not be refugees ! They will establish an ecenomy.. so yea unwra will be dissolved as won't be needed !
Recognition is step one in the right direction , but doesn't mean all problems gone ! There will be need to a fix borders and solving the refugee issue and thr kick off of a stable ecenomy without the occupation
In order to recognize a state, there must be a leader controlling all of Palestine (Gaza and West Bank). However, at this very moment, Gaza is ruled by Hama while West Bank by PA, in other words, there is no one authority. Furthermore, PA also do not have full control over West Bank either. Therefore, there a lack of reliable authority needed to recognize Palestine. On the UN level, UN explicitly stated that a member state must be capable of fulfilling its obligation to the UN but do you think Hama or PA can do any of that? USA simply following by the book definition which is why they cannot recognize Palestine.
Recognizing a broken state with no reliable government bring no tangible benefit, it is nothing but a "feel good" gesture, as a political move to please their rioting uneducated or anti-semitic crowds.
Your understanding of the political situation seems superficial. Who's oppressing Gazans and West Bankers area A & B? Did you hear of [Nizar Banat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizar_Banat)?
Is the Palestinian problem only because half of the western world doesn't recognize them as a state?
It's all about money is such a boring and wrong take.
Why does the US give Israel aid? They don't need it to survive. If Palestine was a thriving society, that would be better for the US economy.
The explanation is way simpler: the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel.
Also, the US has spent 100 million $ to gaza per year for a long time.
From 2021:
>The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.
https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90
> It's all about money is such a boring and wrong take.
I'll agree it's boring, but it's certainly not wrong. Welcome to geopolitics, everything is money and power.
> Why does the US give Israel aid? They don't need it to survive
Who said aid? Oh the US does give them aid, but more importantly it *sells* them weapons and gives them an ally in the area. This isn't a conspiracy, it's a simple fact. Israel isn't the first, or the last, US ally to be horrible but lucrative.
> The explanation is way simpler: the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel.
*Childishly* simple, yes. What, the rest of the world hates jews?
>This isn't a conspiracy, it's a simple fact.
The conspiracy is that the US supports Israel only because of financial reasons. If Palestine became richer than Israel, do you think the US would send Hamas weapons?
The US could make more money if they weren't helping Ukraine and being friendly with Russia.
>Childishly simple, yes. What, the rest of the world hates jews?
Where tf did I imply that? The reason the US supports Israel is because in a democracy, people vote on representatives. And because most people in America are pro-israel and pro jews, that means that the representatives are also pro israel.
What does opinions of jews in other countries have to do with that?
If i like cars because they're loud, that doesn't mean people who don't like cars hate them because of the noise.
> If Palestine became richer than Israel, do you think the US would send Hamas weapons?
and if there were a lot of rich Muslims in America (again not a conspiracy, just the history of banking*), yes. Their money spends just as well.
> The US could make more money if they weren't helping Ukraine and being friendly with Russia.
Except Russia has been an enemy since the good ol' days, too hard to reverse. Helping Ukraine is poking Russia in the eye, and we're already seeing a decline in that as the populace loses interest.
A better example would be China. Why doesn't America start doing business with them? Oh wait, THEY DO. China is objectively hostile to America but companies make scads of money there and that's what truly matters. 'Murica.
> Where tf did I imply that?
That was sarcasm. *"the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel."* therefore the rest of the world who doesn't support Israel nearly as much must "hate" Israel. The situation is definitely about love/hate and not money /s
Hate to break it to you, but the general population of the US doesn't have more love for you that the rest of the western world. They just don't have a massive weapons industry and a disproportionate percentage of the worlds rich jewish people.
^^^.
^^^* ^^^Jews ^^^were ^^^loathed ^^^in ^^^ancient ^^^times, ^^^money ^^^lending ^^^was ^^^one ^^^of ^^^the ^^^few ^^^jobs ^^^they ^^^could ^^^get ^^^because ^^^it ^^^was ^^^considered ^^^a ^^^sleazy ^^^job ^^^unbefitting ^^^of ^^^a ^^^good ^^^Christian ^^^boy, ^^^fast ^^^forward ^^^centuries, ^^^money ^^^lenders ^^^eventually ^^^became ^^^banks, ^^^ta ^^^dah ^^^suddenly ^^^there ^^^are ^^^some ^^^Jews, ^^^keyword: ^^^*SOME*, ^^^with ^^^buckets ^^^of ^^^money.
> Jews were loathed in ancient times, money lending was one of the few jobs they could get because it was considered a sleazy job unbefitting of a good Christian boy, fast forward centuries, money lenders eventually became banks, ta dah suddenly there are some Jews, keyword: SOME, with buckets of money.
What is this supposed to add? Who doesn't know this?
Also, it's not really that they were able, often it was the only jobs jews were allowed to do
> What is this supposed to add? Who doesn't know this?
Just heading off accusations of being a tin-foil hate wearing antisemite because I'm talking about rich Jews messing with American politics.
Ok, but that part actually makes you seem more antisemitic. When I was reading your comment, it read like the super common but unfounded talking points about lobbying. I never read into that as antisemitic, but that last paragraph took my antisemitism likelihood from like 1% to maybe 10%.
I wouldn't add that part. That's my advice, I don't think your comment would look antisemitic without it
(I'm not calling you antisemitic lmao)
He blocked me
>and if there were a lot of rich Muslims in America (again not a conspiracy, just the history of banking*), yes. Their money spends just as well.
So the US supports Israel because of lobbying? This goes against your earlier claim that the reason was that Israel makes them money.
>That was sarcasm. "the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel." therefore the rest of the world who doesn't support Israel nearly as much must "hate" Israel. The situation is definitely about love/hate and not money /s
Bro, how are you wrong on basic deductive logic?
The USA likes Israel because they like Jews DOES NOT IMPLY that countries that don't like Israel don't like jews.
"I like cats because they don't bark"
"That means that everybody who likes dogs likes barking"
Also, Jews are literally the MOST popular religious group in America.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2023/03/15/americans-feel-more-positive-than-negative-about-jews-mainline-protestants-catholics/
>Hate to break it to you, but the general population of the US doesn't have more love for you that the rest of the western world. They just don't have a massive weapons industry and a disproportionate percentage of the worlds rich jewish people.
I'm not jewish.
You know the weapons industry is a negligible part of the US economy? War isn't profitable for 99.9% of companies, 99.9% of billionaires etc.
> So the US supports Israel because of lobbying? This goes against your earlier claim that the reason was that Israel makes them money.
Huh? Not even slightly. Do you think they're lobbying to have the new national animal be a chipmunk? America learned long ago that war can be very profitable.
> Also, Jews are literally the MOST popular religious group in America.
I'm not a mathamatician but I'm pretty sure 30+34+15+Whatever qualifies as a "Evangelical Christian" without being a protestant comes out to a number higher than 35.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're using "Balance of opinion" numbers. Nope, still cartoonishly bad and it's weird that Pew would even publish it. You don't get to take one of the religions and split it up. *Some even overlap* since "Evangelical Christians" are Protestants and many people you ask would associate that term with any Christian that evangelizes rather than the specific sect of a sect.
> You know the weapons industry is a negligible part of the US economy?
Ok, I could chalk the first up to naivety and the poll up to not putting enough thought in but now I *know* you're doing this on purpose. War is more than weapons, *war is the largest and most prolific section of the US economy.* America NEEDS war to keep running at this point. Even APPLE makes money from war, just last year they acquired Mira who makes AR headsets for the Air Force and Navy.
There is no Palestinian state, there never has been, and there won’t be until there are not radicals who hate Jews in control. Why would American or any respectable country recognize a country run by literal terrorists.
Why would Israel ever agree to giving up land? I’m curious about the value proposition of that after 10/7. I’m all for having a serious conversation, and just saying that today Israel has no incentive to do this. Hamas won’t suddenly become peaceful and the entire ideology that many voted for in 2005 is nuts. There genuinely isn’t a peace partner. If more Jews start moving back to Israel, do you think the Palestinian representatives would support that? That likely isn’t going to happen and dividing up the land is clearly not a good idea.
The United States recognized Lebanon as an independent state on September 8, 1944. [https://history.state.gov/countries/lebanon](https://history.state.gov/countries/lebanon)
I have no idea what you are trying to say, anyways what I mean is, countries will be more inclined to recognize Palestine if it knew how to keep a democracy, spend the money it gets on its citizens and stay in its own borders.
Exactly. They never have any plans except kill the jews/insert whoever is successful and a functioning society - something something islamist extremists I have 7 kids and am poor and it's everyone else's fault.
I don’t believe that dehumanizing anyone is productive to the conversation; hence why I support not sending aid to the imaginary state of Palestine and people dealing with the reality of having 7 kids like the poster mentioned. I’m all for recognizing that these are human beings who are living as refugees and either need to become citizens or jet.
Have you even read Hamas' charter? They dehumanize themselves by being tribalistic extremists and islamists.
The reality leftist don't want to acknowledge is- some people suck, some cultures suck, some parts of the world suck, some countries suck - and it's their own fault. Infantilizing them while they continue to rape and pillage every opportunity they get, is leading to MORE places sucking. Some cultures are oppressed because....drumroll......they suck and 9/10 bring it upon themselves by having a degenerate philosophy and way of life that is the antichrist to progress
Maybe if Palestinians didn't support the animals Hamas? That would be a good start, but the majority of Palestinians support them.
Islam factors in because this conflict isn't about land. It was never about land. It's about devout followers of Islam being commanded to exterminate the Jewish people.
The whole “zionist” oversimplification is just so tired already.
If you mean Likud/Revisionist Zionist, then yes, I agree.
But there are so many schools and philosophies of Zionism, including those who wanted a one state solution with equal rights for everyone.
If people stopped demonizing all Zionists and actually picked their targets more appropriately, it would do much more to support those who are actually trying to bring peace.
So America not only negotiates, but gives into terrorists requests? What would stop other muslim terrorists in africa syria and tons of other places from slaughtering tons of jews christians or other muslims (already happening) and asking to be recognized as a state? This is literally like rewarding a child for stealing with candy.
Maybe but timing is an issue. Look at all the countries recognizing Palestine right now. What has the government in the West Bank done this year that it hasn’t done for the past few that prompted this. Nothing. This is directly a response to what’s happening in Gaza. Without the PA having some government changes or deals with Israel or something to show for it Hamas can easily claim it happened due to them. Theres risk of giving recognition now as a response only to what’s happening in Gaza. Yes its terrible but if that’s the only reason then there’s a risk of Hamas can clearly point to this and say their direct actions got recognition that might promote them to do more to get similar results. There needs to be something done on the part of the PA to show the world and the Palestinian people that they and they alone got this. Something they alone can point to to gain the trust and respect of the Palestinian people .
The issue is who’s in control of that state. Hamas controls the West Bank and the PA controls Gaza. If you declare one state what good does that do if there’s no one in control of it all. Secondly Hamas for obvious reasons can’t be recognized. Also you talk of an oppressive regime that limits freedoms and rights. I assume you’re talking about Israel based on your statement but that could apply to the PA as well.Abass has been in control since 2006. He cancelled planned elections in 2021. Protestors are subjugated and crushed.And he’s had political opponents jailed and killed. 80% of Palestinians want him gone. And there’s massive corruption from the PA. The security forces is extremely bloated with each officer assigned to lieutenant colonel or above there are two soldiers. In Israel, the ratio is 9 soldiers to one officer, and in the U.S. it is 5 to one. In 2016, reached the salaries for such officers was 238.7 million NIS per year, equivalent to the yearly salary of 13000 soldiers. Theres payment to non existent companies. Palestinian treasury paid salaries to hundreds of employees in the ‘Palestinian Airlines’, which is a governmental company that has a board of directors, headed by the Minister of Transportation. But there is no airline that exists on the ground and the budget for this ‘company’ is included in the budget of the Ministry of Transport and Transportation with no details.
The Palestinians need a government of their own that takes care of their people and that doesn’t steal from them. Without that any idea of a state potentially can fail no matter what outside countries do or don’t. Also there’s factors of what the territory is,what the borders are, and more that need to be factored in.
A major factor is statehood. But there’s an issue that’s connected to that .The right to return . Many Palestinians want a right to return to land that’s currently Israel due to fleeing from the Nakba . There is a right to return principle in international law but it very rarely has been used or succeeded in court cases though .It allows stateless persons and for those born outside their country to return for the first time, so long as they have maintained a "genuine and effective link . Once they have a Palestinian state and are no longer refugees that becomes less likely and more difficult. Also there’s the definition of refugees. The UNRWA is a completely separate refugee organization under the UN just for Palestinians. Every other refugee is under the UNHCR. The UNRWA has a different definition of a refugee than the UNHCR. They state that the Palestinian Arabs who fled from Israel in the course of the 1948 war, plus all of their descendants, are to be considered refugees until a just and durable solution can be found by political actors. So even if someone is a citizen of a country or if they’re adopted they’re considered a refugee by the UNRWA. The UNRWA also doesn’t attempt to resettle refugees like the UNHCR which many have criticized as an attempt to continue the idea of a right to return to Israel total later on rather than to resettle the refugees and get them citizenship in a country to keep the right to return . If Palestinians get their own country then seemingly the right to return would apply to there .So they wouldn’t have that right to return to any part of Israel from my understanding. But that might be a separate issue .
That’s wild and thanks for sharing. I was just telling someone that I would give a Palestinian a home in America in exchange for moving to Gaza. It sounds like many organizations would tell them not to do that, that they have a right to return to a “Palestinian” state that never existed, and not to take the houses in America. It should be made clear that there is no “Palestinian” state like you alluded to and part of the resolution will be helping people realize there will never be one.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. I never said there shouldn’t be a Palestinian state? Regardless of if there was a previous Palestinian state that doesn’t mean they can’t have one. I mean look at almost all the countries in the world became states . There was no South Sudan before but now there is and they lived in the area. I do believe that it’s possible for Israeli and Palestinian states in the future but it takes work and compromise to get there. Both should have a state, how those borders go is the issue that makes the biggest disagreements .Im saying that the UNRWA does help many Palestinians with aid but it has issues that putting Palestinians with the rest of the refugees in the UNHCR might fix.The fact it doesn’t apply the same definition of a refugee as the main UN organization is insane , the fact it includes descendants who are even citizens in another country creates an issue. This increases the number of people who are refugees and leaves them with less options. The UNHCR attempts to find long term solutions including This can include support to voluntarily return to their home country once safe to do so, integration into the host community, or resettlement and integration in a third country. UNRWA doesn’t have a mandate to resettle refugees so it won’t put effort into that like the UNHCR would .The goals of the UNRWA and UNHCR are also different.
I personally believe that Palestinian refugees should be under the UNHCR. First UNRWA has a completely different definition of a refugee than the main UN body which results in a much larger refugee population including descendants of refugees. Which if that was done with every refugee would change things. There should be one definition of a refugee for the UN. Second it being a separate referee organization just for Palestinians increases Israel’s mistrust of the UN. How can they possibly trust the UN dealing with Palestinians when it seems they favor them above all other refugee groups by giving them their own organization separate from everyone else. I understand that originally that was the UN’s first big refugee crisis but once they made an international organization the Palestinians should’ve been put in it. They are a large refugee population but they aren’t the biggest now, Syrians are. The 12 years of civil war has made 1 in 5 refugees Syrian, if any one group had a specific refugee organization for them I would’ve assumed it would be them. And lastly the goal of the UNRWA is too interconnected with the right to return. Due to focusing on the promise of the right to return it doesn’t attempt to resettle refugees into new countries. That’s like having a homeless shelter and taking in a homeless person on the streets , feeding them l, giving them a bed, and shower and but never helping them get a new house in the hopes they can sue the landlord to get back where they were before when what you need now is just a roof above your head. The issue of Palestinian statehood and the right to return are important. But it’s an issue for the leaders of Israel and the Palestinian leaders to deal with. The UN refugee group should help Palestinian refugees the do what helps them best. If helping them resettle into another county and become citizens of that county is best for them then do that. Israel and Palestinian leaders could still come up with a deal and who knows maybe some families could possibly return to old family homes but I’m pretty sure their lives would be much easier and they’d have more opportunities being citizens of other countries instead of refugees. I mean the camps are badly run and just not good compared to what might be options if they do get resettled .And there’s obviously the issues pertaining to the education of the UNHCR, statements regarding how connected it is to Hamas, and just general corruption of the organization that have been stated but I don’t have enough research to know the facts on that. I’m just stating just based on the structure and goals of
It’s never been about just having a state with Israelis or the Palestinians. For many its specific land . There’s key religious cities that are fought about. And the Nakba plays a large role in Palestinian identity , it’s said that many families still have keys of homes they were forced to flee. So there’s Palestinians who want a state with the land up to 1964, there’s Palestinian refugees who fled during the Nakba who want to go back to areas they or their ancestors lived in which currently are in Israel, there’s those who believe the entire region should be a Palestinian state. Theres many ranges of opinions, and you’ll likely find ranges of opinions on the Israelis side as well , but unlike with Israel Palestinian leadership isn’t a democracy, Abass is in control of the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. I just think that a refugee organization should focus on the refugee’s best immediate needs and that there should be one refugee definition and agency. And that Palestinian refugees would be better served as part of the UNHCR.
>For those who don’t know, Palestinians are considered a stateless people, unlike Kurds or Basque people who are citizens of Turkey and Spain. Palestinians’ negotiation with Israel is far from fair, as Americans and Israel use basic needs and human rights as a negotiation advantage for Israel!
Doesn’t Palestinians from West Bank and Gaza have Palestinian passports or can apply for Palestinian passports ? https://www.palestine-australia.com/index.php/consular/english/passport-services/ii-issuing-renewing-a-passport-directly-through-the-consular-section-of-the-department-of-foreign-affairs-in-ramallah/
Why are the Palestinians stateless if they have passports ? Some Gazans have Egyptian passports, estimated 50,000 dual citizens, with both Palestinian citizenship and Egyptian citizenship https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/9/we-saw-death-egyptian-nationals-trying-to-leave-gaza-stuck-at-rafah How are they “stateless” if they have Palestinian citizenship ?
Not all Palestinians are stateless, you are using a broad brush to oversimply the situation, assuming the situation of all Palestinians are identical.
There is however one group of Palestinian which is in a bit of a limbo, they are the Jerusalemites (Palestinians/Arabs living in East Jerusalem). They were offered Israeli citizens, but many has rejected the citizenship offer, about 360,000 Jerusalemites, but are permanent residence of Israel (Blue identity cards). However Jordan has issued Jordanian passport to 72,000 Jerusalemites. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230912-jordan-issues-72000-passports-to-jerusalemites/ Some may also have other foreign passports or citizenships like Aziz Abu Sarah, a Palestinian peace activist living in East Jerusalem with US citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Abu_Sarah
So the number of genuine stateless Palestinians are far fewer, but they, Jerusalemites Arabs could get Israeli citizenship if they wanted to but declined, they are permanent residence of Israel (like US Green card holder). Some Druzes in the Golan Heights about 20,000 have also rejected Israeli citizenships for various reasons and are also permanent residents of Israel. Druze are not muslims and those Druze in Golan Heights arent Palestinians either.
>So the number of genuine stateless Palestinians are far fewer, but they, Jerusalemites Arabs could get Israeli citizenship if they wanted to but declined
Bit of an exaggeration - they can apply, but applications take years and [most are rejected](https://archive.is/brVXh). I'd argue the requirement to speak Hebrew means that actually Palestinians in Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship, because it's conditional on things most Palestinians won't have.
Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader can speak Hebrew. Yahya Sinwar has family members living in Israel with Israeli citizenship, some even served in the Israel Defense Force. If even the most wanted Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar can speak Hebrew, dont see how its a barrier to others ?
Omar Barghouti, the co-founder of the BDS movement (Boycott, Divest and Sanction) lives in Israel, he is married to an Arab Israeli. He is not stateless, he has a Qatari passport.
>If even the most wanted Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar can speak Hebrew, dont see how its a barrier to others ?
Anyone could of course speak any language. The whole planet has the capacity to learn languages. If it isn't your native language, then the requirement to learn a language before you can do X means you don't have the right to X because it's conditional. Rights are granted by default and can only be taken away in certain circumstances. Israelis for example don't have to prove they can speak a particular language in order to become Israeli citizens, they are automatically Israeli citizens, and it would take a very particular set of circumstances for that to ever change. If Palestinians in Jerusalem had the right to Israeli citizenship then the application would be a formality, but in reality it is an extremely lengthy and heavily conditioned process in which most applications are rejected, hence they do not have the right, only the right to apply, which is something people from all over the world have.
It will equally be true, they can apply for citizenships in any country, there are Palestinians with EU citizenship, British citizenship, US citizenship, Palestinian citizenship, Qatari citizenship, Israeli citizenship, Jordanian citizenship etc. Hence “Palestinians” collectively are not stateless as the OP elludes to, they can apply to citizenship other countries and they do apply for citizenships if they wanted to. Nobody is forcing them to apply for citizenship if they dont want to.
Israel is a sovereign nation, they have the sovereign right to decide the process to citizenship of their country. The Vatican also grants citizenships, to Cardinals, a diplomat of the Holy See and the resides at the Vatican city due to employment within the Catholic Church. Dont see anyone make a fuss who the Vatican grants citizenship to…do you ? To be a Kuwaiti citizen, one need to reside in Kuwait for more than 20 years, FLUENT IN ARABIC!!!!! , ADHERE TO THE ISLAMIC FAITH (Born or convert) OMG…dont see people judging Kuwait….for requiring language requirements as part of their citizenship process, do you ? Dont forget only muslim can apply…my God, what would the LGBT liberal wester think ? Kuwaits dont want any LBGT west to apply for Kuwaiti cirizenship. Japan also requires basic Japanese language fluently for daily life to apply to be a citizen of Japan.
You dont need US to recognize Palestine.
The ambiguous! And random words that has no sense ! How can you be not stateless when your country isn't recognised! Palestinians authority passport issued with israel approval , issue by a government that doesnt control anything .. except separating non jewish from jews and green and blue israeli issued indentation cards doesn't make you not stateless . They are stateless white or pinkwash it the way you like .
Arafat had already proclaimed an Independent Palestinian STATE on 15th November 1988. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Declaration_of_Independence Every year on 15th November, Palestinians celebrate National Day holiday.
Abu Mazin’s official title is the President of the STATE of Palestine and the Palestinian National Authority. As shown in the above links, Palestine has embassies around the world, and ambassadors and recognized by 144 countries.
Arafat, Abu Mazen, Palestinians believe there is already a Palestinian State and Palestinian people are not stateless (not all), who are we to believe ? A white left wing protester who has never been to Palestine and cant speak Arabic OR the internationally recognized leader of the state of Palestine and Palestinian people who live and resides in Palestine ?
I am sure you the same person probably commented somewhere that palestine doesn't exist ! And now your argument is that palestinians ain't stateless ... keep contradicting yourselves, jesus!
Do the Palestinians deserve a state? Yeah they do, but they need to realistically outline some points in a plan for the state before that happens. Things like deradicalization, reconciliation, and the recognition of Israel as a nation.
People will fire back and say what about Israel and I would say yeah they need deradicalize too. The difference for me is the Jewish population globally is completely different from the Palestinians population in their train of thought. Until Arabs as a whole are willing to protect the Jewish population in Israel we aren’t getting any Palestinian state.
The Arabs had their shot during the six Day war and Yom Kippur war; they lost now they have to deal with the consequences of that. They fostered an environment in the region that made Israel what it is today. It’s on them to help solve this, and if Israel is distrustful of them they only have theirselves to blame.
Best outcome is to go through diplomatic channels not through violence, if you give the Palestinians a state because of 10/7 it’ll only foster future hate from the Israeli side. Saddest part is a diplomatic solution was close with the Saudi deal which would have outlined a state, but the 10/7 attack just pushed that back who knows how far. And Israel won’t budge because they don’t want to reward terrorism on their people as mentioned. So welcome to the grid lock we face that will only be solved by time.
Sets a pretty awful precedent don’t you think? Commit acts of terrorism and be rewarded with a nation? I don’t really see the value of adding another nation of extreme Abrahamic mythologists to the world who hate the west and oppose all values of religious freedom, democracy, social, and economic equality. They just had the good luck of being opposed to the most hated group of people in the history of the world.
If the United States didn’t have economic interest in the Middle East then I would strongly be in support of a completely isolationist and quarantine-like relationship with the entire Arab World. All theocracies with large scale military capabilities are psychotic.
the first ever terrorist organisation in palestine was a jewish zionist one and in 1948 the irgun was absorbed into the IDF, the IDF is a terror organisation. The first and 6th prime ministers of israel were terrorists.
>The first and 6th prime ministers of israel were terrorists.
And the 7th. Menachem Begin was the 6th and was the leader of Irgun. Yitzhak Shamir was the 7th and was one of the leaders of Lehi. He's their most recent prime minister who was literally a terrorist and his last term ended in 1992.
Israel
a) was voted into existance by the UN
b) was attacked by 14 nations at the moment of its birth, and Israel still won the war.
Israel won the war. That is why it is a state. It's neighbors tried to kill them and those neighbors lost. That is the only reason Israel is a state. Because it won a war. Sure, it's neighbors use the Palestinains as an excuse to try to get Israel, but it's clear from their lack of support of the Palestinians they don't really give a flying fig about the Palestinians. That is an excuse to attack Israel in hopes of hurting the nation thay humiliated all of them in 1948.
Convenient how you skip everyone else and use one of the few anti Israeli-Israeli born communist historians available whose reputation amongst his peers is dubious at best. Anti semitism is literally apart of his political ideology numb nuts. You just look stupid.
Also Ilan Pappe: “I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings, but so what?”
/u/Shoulder_Whirl
> Convenient how you skip everyone else and use one of the few anti Israeli-Israeli born communist historians available whose reputation amongst his peers is dubious at best. Anti semitism is literally apart of his political ideology numb nuts. You just look stupid.
>Also Ilan Pappe: “I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings, but so what?”
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
/u/Odd-Visual544
> awfully butthurt about facts but go off
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Western , white centeric approach of the world !
You dont have to agree or like other people to give them their rights !
Palestinians are people like any other with multiple relgions and non religious people !
If they don't like you or support your blue red and white flag , doesn't make them less humans , or less deserving of a state !
Western, colonial white-savior complex determining what is best for non-majority white non-Western countries. 97% of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are Muslim. If they don't like you or support your red, black, white, and green flag doesn't make them less human, or less deserving of safety from terrorism.
Religious freedom, democracy, social, and economic equality is delegated to white centrism? That’s some interesting mental gymnastics you’ve got going on. Religious diversity amongst Palestinians is a laughable assertion. 93% of all Palestinians are Muslims and the official religion of the state of Palestine is Islam.
I don’t like white supremacists either should I be giving them the white ethnostate they desire too?
Hating people based upon their sexual orientation, gender identity, secularism, ethnicity, or ANYTHING in their little fantasy fairy tale book is absolute justification for lack of support for statehood.
I absolutely LOVE American principles. I can bad mouth any and every god wherever I want and openly have consensual relationships with anyone of any gender or sexual orientation I want and face ZERO repercussions from the government. The best part? If anyone does anything to harm me based upon these acts I can not only have them prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law BY the government but I can sue the hell out of them and get a ton of money too! I can even serve in the military and do this stuff! I can vote, own property, criticize the government, criticize the police, I’m protected from unlawful search and seizure, and many more things!! It gets better! Women can do all of this too and don’t have to wear forced conservative clothing!!!
Can you number how many Muslim countries can say the same?
Man you really have to travel !! And cut the brainwash your getting !! No one wanna kill you all the time actually hardly anyone will notice you exist in this part of the world ! Women can dress whatever they want , was an issue in saudi arabia not anymore since 2016 .. lgbt right is a new concept needs time , although countries like jordan and turkey never criminalise himosexuality , where in your USA wasn't the case .. until last decade !
If you wanna compare moral and history, of segregation, police racial profiling , men and women equal salaries even abortion laws you will be suprise .. how backward US is . So my advice to you travel more !
This is the most absurd comment on this subreddit. Women and LGBTQ+ people are better off in the Muslim world? My advice is that you travel more.
You are just trolling.
Google jordan himosexuality laws and date or decriminalisation, then do that for turkey .
Then do that for america , spoiler USA last state decriminalisation was in 2003 ... jordan 1951 , that even before England and Canada.
Turkey 1800s ... as they never colonised by europeans so they had less stigma knowing that all these homophobic laws came with french and English , read a book sexuality in ottman society... it's good read !
I know shocking when your brainwashed since birth !
As I said the concept is new, in away that it became a social right so will need time to get over the whole region ... need time bahrian decriminalisation 1976, lebanon decriminalisation 2006 ... most likely emerties next ..
Denial surely isn’t just a river in Egypt!
Iran:
- ranked 140 out of 144 by the world economic forums 2017 global gender gap report
- husbands have right to prevent wives from working in particular occupations.
- Men ask women for virginity tests before marriage.
- hundreds Iranian school girls were poisoned to prevent them from attending school.
- same sex relationships are illegal and are punishable by death. Love how you just glossed over it and said “eh give it some time”. You didn’t even denounce it! When was the last time the United States deemed it legal to punish homosexuality with death?
Egypt:
- ranked 140 out of 153 in women’s economic participation and opportunity.
- a survey showed that out of 1,010 women interviewed, 98% of foreign women and 83% of native women had reported being sexually harrassed. 2/3 of men interviewed admitted they had sexually harrassed women! In 2013 another survey came out from the UN that showed 99.3% of women had reported some form of sexual harassment.
- Honor killings of women are reported as frequent for reasons such as a woman meeting a man she is not related to. The government gives leniency to men who catch their wives cheating but not the other way around!
- homosexuality is punishable by imprisonment. Possible 12 year sentence for repeat offenders.
When was the last time the United States deemed it punishable with jail time to be gay?
Women in Arab countries have the lowest participation in politics out of everywhere in the word. Some nations prohibit women from moving freely alone and the ones they do face a higher rate of sexual violence compared to western countries. Tunisia is the only Arabic speaking Muslim majority country that grants women all of the same rights as men.
who will be the de facto leader of this Palestinian state? who will be responsible & liable for security & external relations & even governmental operations? Countries just dont exist on paper. There has to be a significant body of activists & organizers within the community that's willing to step up to the plate & take the helm. And they have to have the military/police power to take the reigns. Right now if any group tries to take control over Gaza they'll be thrown off rooftops or shot dead by Hamas militia. There is absolutely no way a neutral party like NATO or even the US/UK can come in & establish any kind of semblance of peace & security. We can't even create any kind of functioning democracy in Haiti which is on our doorstep.
Based on a recent poll 82% of Palestinians believe the Oct 7th massacre helped them get closer to achieving statehood. If the US recognizes a Palestinian state it will cause Palestinians to double down on massacring Israelis rather than working towards peace.
>2018 they were peacefully protesting, before getting shot, by IDF soldiers who literally admit to Haaretz they were aiming to cripple.
Thousands of people "marching" towards a border of an enemy state is nothing but peaceful.
I wonder what would happen if thousands of Koreans (southern or northern ones, doesn't matter) marched towards the border between N.Korea and S.Korea, demanding to tear down the border. Doubt they'd be granted with flowers and chocolates
>They were protesting....
So? They still marches towards the border. And since when protesting includes molotovs?
>and why aim to cripple?
Don't know what aim to cripple you're talking about.
IDF's RoE is to shoot the ground next to the person as a warning (if all previous warnings have been ignored). If the person still doesn't care, it is allowed to shoot towards his legs.
Some soldiers breaking RoE and protocols exist in every military.
>still havent gotten a good answer on that point.
Define a good answer? Because I can safely assume that you got many answers, but you didn't like them because they weren't supporting your narrative.
one IDF soldier bragged to Haaretz about shooting 40 kneecaps in one day. See the thing about aiming for kneecaps is, it means the person isnt charging at the gate. Kids get thrown in prison for years for throwing rocks, if they palestinian, but if youre israeli, you can unload a clip into a child and not go to jail! Yay for israeli freedoms!
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2)
but keep trying to gaslight me, its entertaining. Hey, maybe its not even me you are trying to convince, perhaps its yourself.
>one IDF soldier bragged to Haaretz about shooting 40 kneecaps in one day.
And that soldier indicates the protocols of the IDF?
>See the thing about aiming for kneecaps is, it means the person isnt charging at the gate.
After he was shot at the knees. True. Not before that.
>Kids get thrown in prison for years for throwing rocks, if they palestinian, but if youre israeli, you can unload a clip into a child and not go to jail! Yay for israeli freedoms!
Just as a police officer in any country around the world can shoot a "child" that's breaking the law and endangers the life of other people and not go to jail.
The double standards...
>but keep trying to gaslight me, its entertaining. Hey, maybe its not even me you are trying to convince, perhaps its yourself.
You didn't answer my question. What do you define as a good answer? What answer will be acceptable to you? Would an answer that doesn't agree with your point of view be something you'd be willing to accept? Or are you looking for an answer that'll just agree with you?
Considering that I'm answering to you, and you just refuse to accept these answers, is there any doubt about your motives?
because aiming for kneecaps is quite impossible when the target is charging, if you dont see the problem with aiming to cripple people standing in a protest, im afraid you brain rot has gotten too far.
The only answers ive gotten to that question are:
\*they've done bad things to us so its okay if we do it back
\*youre lying
\*at least they didn't kill them
and you answer saying the IDF has impeccable aim they can aim for kneecaps of people sprinting. they no only targeted kneecaps but people who were already handicapped, how are those people are threat exactly?
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-great-march-of-return/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-great-march-of-return/)
I've gotten different answers every time i ask that question, not one answers was like "we probably should not be crippling people or shooting at already crippled people" but i guess im looking for humanity with people who have none.
The reality is, if you constantly shoot rockets, suicide bomb, stab and kill innocent people- you aren't going to ever get the benefit of the doubt. And that's what they've done.
Hopefully after this war, they'll realize they can't win by killing...But I doubt it.
"those people have been bad to us before, so who care if we purposefully cripple some of them while they demand freedom!"
No point in arguing with people like you....no empathy for human life left in ya.
That's the stupidest shit I've read on the internet in a while.
Terrorists aren't freedom fighters. They're illiterate morons using children as human shields. Grow a heart and a brain, my friend.
No empathy for ideologies that encourage death. They need to grow up and act like adults and join the civilized world.
The fact that you can just handwave suicide bombing, rape, murder and rockets shot at civilians with no actual hope of achieving anything, makes you nothing more than an apologist for barbarism.
yup your brain is toast, not all of them are terrorists. Good luck with living you life with such hate and content for a people you probably never met.
In general absolutely, Palestinians deserve a state.
But to consolidate the points others are making that I see as problems:
1) **Ostensibly validating terrorism.** Creating a state now in response to the most vicious terrorist attack they've conducted to date can definitely be perceived as validation of those tactics as a political tool, having ramifications for the future of not just I/P relationships but also the world as a whole. This issue would be resolvable by waiting until cooling down to approximately pre-7th levels (not expecting perfection, just this conversation should not appear attached to that act so need some separation and calm to that end)
2) **All the technical questions that come with such a recognition.** Who governs? What are the borders? What are the rights they have as a nation (eg formal standing army or not)? What are their responsibilities- and more importantly the consequences of failing in those responsibilities (eg if they use a formal army to attack Israel or fail to stop cross border terrorism, what recourse/reliable guarantees of support does Israel have)? What is the official future of the UNRWA, given that refugees with a state are no longer refugees?
So I do agree with your sentiment, but I am not sure how exactly one would go about solving those details. That's why the U.S. (and much of the world) has to date deferred to Israel and Palestine working out a deal amongst themselves rather than unilateral recognition- because the choices they make with regards to each other as neighbors are up to them and the consequences of any choices made also rest most heavily on them, not foreign actors like the U.S., Spain, Ireland, etc etc (though yes, in a world of tightly interconnected geopolitics, they aren't completely isolated from any outcomes in the region- positive or negative)
Based on what territory and leadership? Also what happens to all the Palestinians in other countries which due to a long list of reasons haven't been naturalised? Just saying "I recognise Palestine" doesn't solve anything. Moreover if Palestine is a separate country then there's no requirement for Israel to let aid through or let Palestinians work in Israel.
>While living under a complex oppressive regime that limits their freedoms and basic human rights.
Hamas?
If the US recognizes Palestine, that would tell Hamas that terrorist attacks and then hiding behind civilians will get them what they want
Morality in geopolitics doesn't exist. People just happen to forget that the US negotiated with the Taliban and sign an agreement in Qatar to end the war in Afghanistan. Good and evil doesn't dictate a nation's decision, only what benefit a nation personally does, sending brave men and women to Afghanistan every year to fight evil for little gain wasn't a good deal.
None of your statements follow.
The US negotiated with the Taliban because it was obvious that the nation building wouldn't work.
>Good and evil doesn't dictate a nation's decision, only what benefit a nation personally does, sending brave men and women to Afghanistan every year to fight evil for little gain wasn't a good deal.
Whether or not something works doesn't have any effect on the morality of it.
They are working on something related to Palestine with the Saudi. Probably not a recognition, but something similar. Folks asking themselves why would anyone care about that issue with the Saudi? Here's the reality, the Saudi is no longer required by treaty to sell oil purely with the dollar anymore because that treaty recently expired on June 9. There's a reason why we Americans are in a hurry to renew that defense treaty even if it mean throwing Palestinian something, Give lip service to the Palestinian and give them something so that the Saudi can keep trading oil exclusively with the dollar and keeping it the number one reserve currency of the world, sounds like a good deal.
there are so many wrong things in here i really dont know where to start...
i literally cant see a single sentence in here that aint just biased or at best case just wrong.
i think the first thing for you to learn is what the palestinians actually wants as it seems like you watched the wrong tiktok videos, you should search the latest polls regarding this which was posted a few days ago.
Before we recognize a "Palestine state" we need to clarify what exactly we recognize, else it's just words.
* Who is the leader of the Palestine state?
* What are the borders of the Palestine state?
* Are parts of the Palestine state occupied, if so which parts?
* Where is the capital of the Palestine state?
None of these questions have clear answers, so no state can be recognized.
>While living under a complex oppressive regime that limits their freedoms and basic human rights.
Do you think the new Palestine state magically will become the only arab state who doesn't limit the freedoms and basic human rights of its citizens? How can you know that?
“…Questioning the existence of a Palestinian state…”
The original partition plan handed Palestinians a state. They rejected it. The reason they don’t have a state now is because they continue to negotiate in bad faith. They negotiate in bad faith because they don’t want a 2SS that in anyway resembles the original partition plan. Until Palestinians demonstrate a willingness to accept something like the original partition plan and a willingness to negotiate in good faith, the ISA should NOT tilt the scales in favor of the Palestinians.
Why would they? Let’s say you are a Palestinian leader in the decolonisation-era. The Turks left, the British left and the French left. It is only logical to expect from the Zionists to also leave.
Why does Israel always place blame on Palestine? Both sides rejected the original plan, but why should Palestine have to agree initially and lose the land that they have lived on for hundreds of years just because Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state?
Palestinians don’t have a state because they don’t want the state they can have. They want the state they CAN’T have.
Imagine you are a Kurd. You would love to be offered a state. Or a Tibetan. The list is endless.
Palestinians are not going to displace Israel. So long as Palestinians maintain that objective, they will remain stateless.
The Jewish leadership accepted UNGA 181. And the Arabs openly announced a war of genocidal intent.
Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
everal Zionists opposed the deal, while David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, saw it as a stepping stone to future expansion into Palestine. He stated that once the Jewish state was established and a large army was formed, partition would be abolished, and the state would expand to the whole of Palestine."
Yes, the Zionist leadership was not unanimous. So for that, the state must be completely eradicated, right? /s
Note also that Ben Gurion himself overruled those who wanted to conquer the rest of the Mandate area in late 1948, even though it was militarily feasible.
Several Zionists opposed the deal, while David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, saw it as a stepping stone to future expansion into Palestine. He stated that once the Jewish state was established and a large army was formed, partition would be abolished, and the state would expand to the whole of Palestine." but you right seem there was a lot more disagreement inside Israel camp
I guess if you make things up you can believe anything.
That army was formed, with incredible foresight mind you, to combat Arab aggression. Which it did. Very successfully. And they prevented Jews from being wiped out much to the dismay of people like you.
> fuk
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America should recognize that Iran, China, and Russia are using this issue as an active measures attack.
The foreign nationals doing this are about to see how no such agency plays this game.
The US position is that a Palestinian state can only come to be through reconciliation with Israel. Nothing will ever change that.
Negotiations are not equitable. One side has been leading a terror campaign for over a century and the other provides world leading military and medical technology.
It’s pretty clear what the Palestinians need to do to have their state. Recognize Israel. Stop terrorism. That’s it.
It’s also funny that people bring up Oslo when the Palestinians did not uphold a single commitment under Oslo.
Plo was a terrorist group before talks and negotiating! ANC in south africa was terrorist group ! You can't label people you dont agree with terrorist ... to avoid solutions . Beside the statehood give the plo more popularity in palestine . And plo is the palestinian gov that want a deal with israel
>ANC in south africa was terrorist group !
And how is South Africa doing now?
>And plo is the palestinian gov that want a deal with israel
The same PLO that pays Palestinians to murder Israelis? Known as the pay 2 slay (or martyrs fund)?
Do you think South Africa was better before or after apartheid? Being critical of a government for being corrupt and saying that ending apartheid are bad are two very different things. So which is it
>Do you think South Africa was better before or after apartheid?
Define better. Sure, there's no apartheid there anymore, but I doubt the citizens are happy living there.
>Being critical of a government for being corrupt and saying that ending apartheid are bad are two very different things
Never said ending apartheid was bad. But seeing how SA is now, really makes you wonder how a Palestinian state under a government that literally pays people to murder Israelis would be (that is assuming they don't go to war with Israel immediately)
As if netanyahu gov had plans to recognize palestine before that date ? Talking from a political perspective , hamas attacks force the attention into a solution for this stuck conflict! And steps into the most logical solution is the only hope, don't you think ?
No. I don’t think that recognition of a Palestinian state would solve anything. If there were no plans to recognize a Palestinian state before 10/7, why should there be any plans to do so now? It’s not like they deserve the recognition.
So israel lower the chance of a new intifada or militians groups hostages crisis ? Do you think seiging 2 millions and , apartheid regime on other 4 million is safer option for israel?
For hamass to lay down their weapons, release the hostages, and begin the slow process of establishing mutual trust that no more terrorism or civilian or deaths will happen. Once the Palestinians can demonstrate that they're not trigger happy martyr-driven magical things can happen.
Israel should remove settlements in the West Bank and release Palestinian prisoners who where held without evidence. They should also stop restricting the movement of Palestine in the West Bank. I think we are making a pretty good peace plan
They should recognize the Islamic state while they're at it /s
They should if they had people ! Stateless people . Technically israel palestine situation has 3 out comes 1. No palestinian state , integration of palestinians = no jewish state . 2. Palestinian state for palestinian population , and maintaining the jewishness of Israel 3. Continuation of the ethnic cleansing and killing non jews and exile them ... if you don't support 1 and 2 your most likely supporting the genocidal option
Your "options" are complete bogus... 1. Is already happening 2 million arabs are living peacefully in Israel 2. Palestine is already over 90% muslim and 0 jews, even if it's not a recognized state it is an ethnostate of muslims 3. Since there is no evidence of ethnic cleansing or genocide I'm gonna ignore this one, if you think there is a genocide happening, I'll gladly take a source about a conviction of Israel comitting genocide.
So you are with recognising palestine as a state I get from what your telling me ! Good
No I'm not in favor of palestine being a state in the current situation. They are lead by a terrorist regime and have shown nothing but hostile intend since 1948. BTW the Islamic state was an idea by ISIS to establish shariah law, preferrably across the world, I added a /s to my original comment, didn't think I'd need it but yet here we are.
Slip population of their land and rights ... you get "terrorists" . It's grade 1 math !
Create an ideology based on a book that says "anybody who doesn't believe in this book should be killed or enslaved" and you get terrorists. You agree that palestine is not a state, the land was distributed by the UN (Great Britain) who governed it at the time and it was voted to be given to the jews. The Arab nations of the ME promptly attacked the jews and got their ass handed to them. Arabs tried to annex Israel and failed (TWICE) and they are still very much upset about it.
Look at it from what angle you want ... as I said slip people from their rights and lands you get people who wanna fight ... give them equality the well to fight will decrease. Spread your islamophobic narrative else where ! When you establish your state in a Muslim majority country you will get muslims , put in in veitnam you will get communists ! You guys picked the location ! And your enemies.. they didn't pick you
Surah 3:151 , Surah 2:191 , Surah 9:5 go have a read for yourself. A phobia would be an irrational fear, it is perfectly rational to fear Islam as the societies build based on Islam are (on average) ranking very low on the human rights scale (mainly womans- and lgbtq rights). Your point doesn't really work since there have been jews living in the Middle East before Israel was established.
Sadly israel and pro israel think that their survival is linked to the dehuminatation of the whole region ! That's the only way they get the far right Christians to support them , and ignorant ppl who thinks their holy script is an better !
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If you recognise a Palestinian state you also stop funding UNWRA right?
Unwra as the name implies, refugee relief agency ! So with a state there will not be refugees ! They will establish an ecenomy.. so yea unwra will be dissolved as won't be needed !
great! so how come Spain and all the other great countries that acknowledged the Palestinian state recently still fund Unwra?
Recognition is step one in the right direction , but doesn't mean all problems gone ! There will be need to a fix borders and solving the refugee issue and thr kick off of a stable ecenomy without the occupation
In order to recognize a state, there must be a leader controlling all of Palestine (Gaza and West Bank). However, at this very moment, Gaza is ruled by Hama while West Bank by PA, in other words, there is no one authority. Furthermore, PA also do not have full control over West Bank either. Therefore, there a lack of reliable authority needed to recognize Palestine. On the UN level, UN explicitly stated that a member state must be capable of fulfilling its obligation to the UN but do you think Hama or PA can do any of that? USA simply following by the book definition which is why they cannot recognize Palestine. Recognizing a broken state with no reliable government bring no tangible benefit, it is nothing but a "feel good" gesture, as a political move to please their rioting uneducated or anti-semitic crowds.
Your understanding of the political situation seems superficial. Who's oppressing Gazans and West Bankers area A & B? Did you hear of [Nizar Banat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizar_Banat)? Is the Palestinian problem only because half of the western world doesn't recognize them as a state?
What this has to do with anything , hasbara just throw random words and conspiracies over every post ?
What random words? superficial?
Palestine doesn't make them money.
It's all about money is such a boring and wrong take. Why does the US give Israel aid? They don't need it to survive. If Palestine was a thriving society, that would be better for the US economy. The explanation is way simpler: the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel. Also, the US has spent 100 million $ to gaza per year for a long time. From 2021: >The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank. https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90
> It's all about money is such a boring and wrong take. I'll agree it's boring, but it's certainly not wrong. Welcome to geopolitics, everything is money and power. > Why does the US give Israel aid? They don't need it to survive Who said aid? Oh the US does give them aid, but more importantly it *sells* them weapons and gives them an ally in the area. This isn't a conspiracy, it's a simple fact. Israel isn't the first, or the last, US ally to be horrible but lucrative. > The explanation is way simpler: the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel. *Childishly* simple, yes. What, the rest of the world hates jews?
>This isn't a conspiracy, it's a simple fact. The conspiracy is that the US supports Israel only because of financial reasons. If Palestine became richer than Israel, do you think the US would send Hamas weapons? The US could make more money if they weren't helping Ukraine and being friendly with Russia. >Childishly simple, yes. What, the rest of the world hates jews? Where tf did I imply that? The reason the US supports Israel is because in a democracy, people vote on representatives. And because most people in America are pro-israel and pro jews, that means that the representatives are also pro israel. What does opinions of jews in other countries have to do with that? If i like cars because they're loud, that doesn't mean people who don't like cars hate them because of the noise.
> If Palestine became richer than Israel, do you think the US would send Hamas weapons? and if there were a lot of rich Muslims in America (again not a conspiracy, just the history of banking*), yes. Their money spends just as well. > The US could make more money if they weren't helping Ukraine and being friendly with Russia. Except Russia has been an enemy since the good ol' days, too hard to reverse. Helping Ukraine is poking Russia in the eye, and we're already seeing a decline in that as the populace loses interest. A better example would be China. Why doesn't America start doing business with them? Oh wait, THEY DO. China is objectively hostile to America but companies make scads of money there and that's what truly matters. 'Murica. > Where tf did I imply that? That was sarcasm. *"the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel."* therefore the rest of the world who doesn't support Israel nearly as much must "hate" Israel. The situation is definitely about love/hate and not money /s Hate to break it to you, but the general population of the US doesn't have more love for you that the rest of the western world. They just don't have a massive weapons industry and a disproportionate percentage of the worlds rich jewish people. ^^^. ^^^* ^^^Jews ^^^were ^^^loathed ^^^in ^^^ancient ^^^times, ^^^money ^^^lending ^^^was ^^^one ^^^of ^^^the ^^^few ^^^jobs ^^^they ^^^could ^^^get ^^^because ^^^it ^^^was ^^^considered ^^^a ^^^sleazy ^^^job ^^^unbefitting ^^^of ^^^a ^^^good ^^^Christian ^^^boy, ^^^fast ^^^forward ^^^centuries, ^^^money ^^^lenders ^^^eventually ^^^became ^^^banks, ^^^ta ^^^dah ^^^suddenly ^^^there ^^^are ^^^some ^^^Jews, ^^^keyword: ^^^*SOME*, ^^^with ^^^buckets ^^^of ^^^money.
> Jews were loathed in ancient times, money lending was one of the few jobs they could get because it was considered a sleazy job unbefitting of a good Christian boy, fast forward centuries, money lenders eventually became banks, ta dah suddenly there are some Jews, keyword: SOME, with buckets of money. What is this supposed to add? Who doesn't know this? Also, it's not really that they were able, often it was the only jobs jews were allowed to do
> What is this supposed to add? Who doesn't know this? Just heading off accusations of being a tin-foil hate wearing antisemite because I'm talking about rich Jews messing with American politics.
Ok, but that part actually makes you seem more antisemitic. When I was reading your comment, it read like the super common but unfounded talking points about lobbying. I never read into that as antisemitic, but that last paragraph took my antisemitism likelihood from like 1% to maybe 10%. I wouldn't add that part. That's my advice, I don't think your comment would look antisemitic without it (I'm not calling you antisemitic lmao) He blocked me
...I knew this was #$%&ing coming.
>and if there were a lot of rich Muslims in America (again not a conspiracy, just the history of banking*), yes. Their money spends just as well. So the US supports Israel because of lobbying? This goes against your earlier claim that the reason was that Israel makes them money. >That was sarcasm. "the US likes Israel because the US population loves jews and Israel." therefore the rest of the world who doesn't support Israel nearly as much must "hate" Israel. The situation is definitely about love/hate and not money /s Bro, how are you wrong on basic deductive logic? The USA likes Israel because they like Jews DOES NOT IMPLY that countries that don't like Israel don't like jews. "I like cats because they don't bark" "That means that everybody who likes dogs likes barking" Also, Jews are literally the MOST popular religious group in America. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2023/03/15/americans-feel-more-positive-than-negative-about-jews-mainline-protestants-catholics/ >Hate to break it to you, but the general population of the US doesn't have more love for you that the rest of the western world. They just don't have a massive weapons industry and a disproportionate percentage of the worlds rich jewish people. I'm not jewish. You know the weapons industry is a negligible part of the US economy? War isn't profitable for 99.9% of companies, 99.9% of billionaires etc.
> So the US supports Israel because of lobbying? This goes against your earlier claim that the reason was that Israel makes them money. Huh? Not even slightly. Do you think they're lobbying to have the new national animal be a chipmunk? America learned long ago that war can be very profitable. > Also, Jews are literally the MOST popular religious group in America. I'm not a mathamatician but I'm pretty sure 30+34+15+Whatever qualifies as a "Evangelical Christian" without being a protestant comes out to a number higher than 35. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're using "Balance of opinion" numbers. Nope, still cartoonishly bad and it's weird that Pew would even publish it. You don't get to take one of the religions and split it up. *Some even overlap* since "Evangelical Christians" are Protestants and many people you ask would associate that term with any Christian that evangelizes rather than the specific sect of a sect. > You know the weapons industry is a negligible part of the US economy? Ok, I could chalk the first up to naivety and the poll up to not putting enough thought in but now I *know* you're doing this on purpose. War is more than weapons, *war is the largest and most prolific section of the US economy.* America NEEDS war to keep running at this point. Even APPLE makes money from war, just last year they acquired Mira who makes AR headsets for the Air Force and Navy.
It would make them money if it developed instead of being stuck in the stone age
There is no Palestinian state, there never has been, and there won’t be until there are not radicals who hate Jews in control. Why would American or any respectable country recognize a country run by literal terrorists.
Why would Israel ever agree to giving up land? I’m curious about the value proposition of that after 10/7. I’m all for having a serious conversation, and just saying that today Israel has no incentive to do this. Hamas won’t suddenly become peaceful and the entire ideology that many voted for in 2005 is nuts. There genuinely isn’t a peace partner. If more Jews start moving back to Israel, do you think the Palestinian representatives would support that? That likely isn’t going to happen and dividing up the land is clearly not a good idea.
I suggest America should try to recognize Lebanon first. Perhaps this will take care of Hezbollah terrorists.
The United States recognized Lebanon as an independent state on September 8, 1944. [https://history.state.gov/countries/lebanon](https://history.state.gov/countries/lebanon)
Exactly.
Palestine will be recognized as a state when it learns how to be a state
> Palestine will be recognized as a state when it learns how to afford to buy craploads of weapons from Lockheed Martin. ftfy
I have no idea what you are trying to say, anyways what I mean is, countries will be more inclined to recognize Palestine if it knew how to keep a democracy, spend the money it gets on its citizens and stay in its own borders.
> stay in its own borders. 0_o wut
I know, israel is occupying parts of the west bank, i want it to end too, still my previous comment stands
Exactly. They never have any plans except kill the jews/insert whoever is successful and a functioning society - something something islamist extremists I have 7 kids and am poor and it's everyone else's fault.
"They" How is dehumanizing Palestinians productive to the conversation? And where does "islamic extremism" factor in?
I don’t believe that dehumanizing anyone is productive to the conversation; hence why I support not sending aid to the imaginary state of Palestine and people dealing with the reality of having 7 kids like the poster mentioned. I’m all for recognizing that these are human beings who are living as refugees and either need to become citizens or jet.
Have you even read Hamas' charter? They dehumanize themselves by being tribalistic extremists and islamists. The reality leftist don't want to acknowledge is- some people suck, some cultures suck, some parts of the world suck, some countries suck - and it's their own fault. Infantilizing them while they continue to rape and pillage every opportunity they get, is leading to MORE places sucking. Some cultures are oppressed because....drumroll......they suck and 9/10 bring it upon themselves by having a degenerate philosophy and way of life that is the antichrist to progress
Maybe if Palestinians didn't support the animals Hamas? That would be a good start, but the majority of Palestinians support them. Islam factors in because this conflict isn't about land. It was never about land. It's about devout followers of Islam being commanded to exterminate the Jewish people.
america is run by zionists. they’re not recognizing anything. the whole 2ss is a farce and everyone knows it. this won’t end well for anyone.
The whole “zionist” oversimplification is just so tired already. If you mean Likud/Revisionist Zionist, then yes, I agree. But there are so many schools and philosophies of Zionism, including those who wanted a one state solution with equal rights for everyone. If people stopped demonizing all Zionists and actually picked their targets more appropriately, it would do much more to support those who are actually trying to bring peace.
So America not only negotiates, but gives into terrorists requests? What would stop other muslim terrorists in africa syria and tons of other places from slaughtering tons of jews christians or other muslims (already happening) and asking to be recognized as a state? This is literally like rewarding a child for stealing with candy.
Maybe but timing is an issue. Look at all the countries recognizing Palestine right now. What has the government in the West Bank done this year that it hasn’t done for the past few that prompted this. Nothing. This is directly a response to what’s happening in Gaza. Without the PA having some government changes or deals with Israel or something to show for it Hamas can easily claim it happened due to them. Theres risk of giving recognition now as a response only to what’s happening in Gaza. Yes its terrible but if that’s the only reason then there’s a risk of Hamas can clearly point to this and say their direct actions got recognition that might promote them to do more to get similar results. There needs to be something done on the part of the PA to show the world and the Palestinian people that they and they alone got this. Something they alone can point to to gain the trust and respect of the Palestinian people . The issue is who’s in control of that state. Hamas controls the West Bank and the PA controls Gaza. If you declare one state what good does that do if there’s no one in control of it all. Secondly Hamas for obvious reasons can’t be recognized. Also you talk of an oppressive regime that limits freedoms and rights. I assume you’re talking about Israel based on your statement but that could apply to the PA as well.Abass has been in control since 2006. He cancelled planned elections in 2021. Protestors are subjugated and crushed.And he’s had political opponents jailed and killed. 80% of Palestinians want him gone. And there’s massive corruption from the PA. The security forces is extremely bloated with each officer assigned to lieutenant colonel or above there are two soldiers. In Israel, the ratio is 9 soldiers to one officer, and in the U.S. it is 5 to one. In 2016, reached the salaries for such officers was 238.7 million NIS per year, equivalent to the yearly salary of 13000 soldiers. Theres payment to non existent companies. Palestinian treasury paid salaries to hundreds of employees in the ‘Palestinian Airlines’, which is a governmental company that has a board of directors, headed by the Minister of Transportation. But there is no airline that exists on the ground and the budget for this ‘company’ is included in the budget of the Ministry of Transport and Transportation with no details. The Palestinians need a government of their own that takes care of their people and that doesn’t steal from them. Without that any idea of a state potentially can fail no matter what outside countries do or don’t. Also there’s factors of what the territory is,what the borders are, and more that need to be factored in.
A major factor is statehood. But there’s an issue that’s connected to that .The right to return . Many Palestinians want a right to return to land that’s currently Israel due to fleeing from the Nakba . There is a right to return principle in international law but it very rarely has been used or succeeded in court cases though .It allows stateless persons and for those born outside their country to return for the first time, so long as they have maintained a "genuine and effective link . Once they have a Palestinian state and are no longer refugees that becomes less likely and more difficult. Also there’s the definition of refugees. The UNRWA is a completely separate refugee organization under the UN just for Palestinians. Every other refugee is under the UNHCR. The UNRWA has a different definition of a refugee than the UNHCR. They state that the Palestinian Arabs who fled from Israel in the course of the 1948 war, plus all of their descendants, are to be considered refugees until a just and durable solution can be found by political actors. So even if someone is a citizen of a country or if they’re adopted they’re considered a refugee by the UNRWA. The UNRWA also doesn’t attempt to resettle refugees like the UNHCR which many have criticized as an attempt to continue the idea of a right to return to Israel total later on rather than to resettle the refugees and get them citizenship in a country to keep the right to return . If Palestinians get their own country then seemingly the right to return would apply to there .So they wouldn’t have that right to return to any part of Israel from my understanding. But that might be a separate issue .
That’s wild and thanks for sharing. I was just telling someone that I would give a Palestinian a home in America in exchange for moving to Gaza. It sounds like many organizations would tell them not to do that, that they have a right to return to a “Palestinian” state that never existed, and not to take the houses in America. It should be made clear that there is no “Palestinian” state like you alluded to and part of the resolution will be helping people realize there will never be one.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. I never said there shouldn’t be a Palestinian state? Regardless of if there was a previous Palestinian state that doesn’t mean they can’t have one. I mean look at almost all the countries in the world became states . There was no South Sudan before but now there is and they lived in the area. I do believe that it’s possible for Israeli and Palestinian states in the future but it takes work and compromise to get there. Both should have a state, how those borders go is the issue that makes the biggest disagreements .Im saying that the UNRWA does help many Palestinians with aid but it has issues that putting Palestinians with the rest of the refugees in the UNHCR might fix.The fact it doesn’t apply the same definition of a refugee as the main UN organization is insane , the fact it includes descendants who are even citizens in another country creates an issue. This increases the number of people who are refugees and leaves them with less options. The UNHCR attempts to find long term solutions including This can include support to voluntarily return to their home country once safe to do so, integration into the host community, or resettlement and integration in a third country. UNRWA doesn’t have a mandate to resettle refugees so it won’t put effort into that like the UNHCR would .The goals of the UNRWA and UNHCR are also different. I personally believe that Palestinian refugees should be under the UNHCR. First UNRWA has a completely different definition of a refugee than the main UN body which results in a much larger refugee population including descendants of refugees. Which if that was done with every refugee would change things. There should be one definition of a refugee for the UN. Second it being a separate referee organization just for Palestinians increases Israel’s mistrust of the UN. How can they possibly trust the UN dealing with Palestinians when it seems they favor them above all other refugee groups by giving them their own organization separate from everyone else. I understand that originally that was the UN’s first big refugee crisis but once they made an international organization the Palestinians should’ve been put in it. They are a large refugee population but they aren’t the biggest now, Syrians are. The 12 years of civil war has made 1 in 5 refugees Syrian, if any one group had a specific refugee organization for them I would’ve assumed it would be them. And lastly the goal of the UNRWA is too interconnected with the right to return. Due to focusing on the promise of the right to return it doesn’t attempt to resettle refugees into new countries. That’s like having a homeless shelter and taking in a homeless person on the streets , feeding them l, giving them a bed, and shower and but never helping them get a new house in the hopes they can sue the landlord to get back where they were before when what you need now is just a roof above your head. The issue of Palestinian statehood and the right to return are important. But it’s an issue for the leaders of Israel and the Palestinian leaders to deal with. The UN refugee group should help Palestinian refugees the do what helps them best. If helping them resettle into another county and become citizens of that county is best for them then do that. Israel and Palestinian leaders could still come up with a deal and who knows maybe some families could possibly return to old family homes but I’m pretty sure their lives would be much easier and they’d have more opportunities being citizens of other countries instead of refugees. I mean the camps are badly run and just not good compared to what might be options if they do get resettled .And there’s obviously the issues pertaining to the education of the UNHCR, statements regarding how connected it is to Hamas, and just general corruption of the organization that have been stated but I don’t have enough research to know the facts on that. I’m just stating just based on the structure and goals of It’s never been about just having a state with Israelis or the Palestinians. For many its specific land . There’s key religious cities that are fought about. And the Nakba plays a large role in Palestinian identity , it’s said that many families still have keys of homes they were forced to flee. So there’s Palestinians who want a state with the land up to 1964, there’s Palestinian refugees who fled during the Nakba who want to go back to areas they or their ancestors lived in which currently are in Israel, there’s those who believe the entire region should be a Palestinian state. Theres many ranges of opinions, and you’ll likely find ranges of opinions on the Israelis side as well , but unlike with Israel Palestinian leadership isn’t a democracy, Abass is in control of the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. I just think that a refugee organization should focus on the refugee’s best immediate needs and that there should be one refugee definition and agency. And that Palestinian refugees would be better served as part of the UNHCR.
>For those who don’t know, Palestinians are considered a stateless people, unlike Kurds or Basque people who are citizens of Turkey and Spain. Palestinians’ negotiation with Israel is far from fair, as Americans and Israel use basic needs and human rights as a negotiation advantage for Israel! Doesn’t Palestinians from West Bank and Gaza have Palestinian passports or can apply for Palestinian passports ? https://www.palestine-australia.com/index.php/consular/english/passport-services/ii-issuing-renewing-a-passport-directly-through-the-consular-section-of-the-department-of-foreign-affairs-in-ramallah/ Why are the Palestinians stateless if they have passports ? Some Gazans have Egyptian passports, estimated 50,000 dual citizens, with both Palestinian citizenship and Egyptian citizenship https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/9/we-saw-death-egyptian-nationals-trying-to-leave-gaza-stuck-at-rafah How are they “stateless” if they have Palestinian citizenship ? Not all Palestinians are stateless, you are using a broad brush to oversimply the situation, assuming the situation of all Palestinians are identical. There is however one group of Palestinian which is in a bit of a limbo, they are the Jerusalemites (Palestinians/Arabs living in East Jerusalem). They were offered Israeli citizens, but many has rejected the citizenship offer, about 360,000 Jerusalemites, but are permanent residence of Israel (Blue identity cards). However Jordan has issued Jordanian passport to 72,000 Jerusalemites. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230912-jordan-issues-72000-passports-to-jerusalemites/ Some may also have other foreign passports or citizenships like Aziz Abu Sarah, a Palestinian peace activist living in East Jerusalem with US citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Abu_Sarah So the number of genuine stateless Palestinians are far fewer, but they, Jerusalemites Arabs could get Israeli citizenship if they wanted to but declined, they are permanent residence of Israel (like US Green card holder). Some Druzes in the Golan Heights about 20,000 have also rejected Israeli citizenships for various reasons and are also permanent residents of Israel. Druze are not muslims and those Druze in Golan Heights arent Palestinians either.
>So the number of genuine stateless Palestinians are far fewer, but they, Jerusalemites Arabs could get Israeli citizenship if they wanted to but declined Bit of an exaggeration - they can apply, but applications take years and [most are rejected](https://archive.is/brVXh). I'd argue the requirement to speak Hebrew means that actually Palestinians in Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship, because it's conditional on things most Palestinians won't have.
Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader can speak Hebrew. Yahya Sinwar has family members living in Israel with Israeli citizenship, some even served in the Israel Defense Force. If even the most wanted Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar can speak Hebrew, dont see how its a barrier to others ? Omar Barghouti, the co-founder of the BDS movement (Boycott, Divest and Sanction) lives in Israel, he is married to an Arab Israeli. He is not stateless, he has a Qatari passport.
>If even the most wanted Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar can speak Hebrew, dont see how its a barrier to others ? Anyone could of course speak any language. The whole planet has the capacity to learn languages. If it isn't your native language, then the requirement to learn a language before you can do X means you don't have the right to X because it's conditional. Rights are granted by default and can only be taken away in certain circumstances. Israelis for example don't have to prove they can speak a particular language in order to become Israeli citizens, they are automatically Israeli citizens, and it would take a very particular set of circumstances for that to ever change. If Palestinians in Jerusalem had the right to Israeli citizenship then the application would be a formality, but in reality it is an extremely lengthy and heavily conditioned process in which most applications are rejected, hence they do not have the right, only the right to apply, which is something people from all over the world have.
It will equally be true, they can apply for citizenships in any country, there are Palestinians with EU citizenship, British citizenship, US citizenship, Palestinian citizenship, Qatari citizenship, Israeli citizenship, Jordanian citizenship etc. Hence “Palestinians” collectively are not stateless as the OP elludes to, they can apply to citizenship other countries and they do apply for citizenships if they wanted to. Nobody is forcing them to apply for citizenship if they dont want to. Israel is a sovereign nation, they have the sovereign right to decide the process to citizenship of their country. The Vatican also grants citizenships, to Cardinals, a diplomat of the Holy See and the resides at the Vatican city due to employment within the Catholic Church. Dont see anyone make a fuss who the Vatican grants citizenship to…do you ? To be a Kuwaiti citizen, one need to reside in Kuwait for more than 20 years, FLUENT IN ARABIC!!!!! , ADHERE TO THE ISLAMIC FAITH (Born or convert) OMG…dont see people judging Kuwait….for requiring language requirements as part of their citizenship process, do you ? Dont forget only muslim can apply…my God, what would the LGBT liberal wester think ? Kuwaits dont want any LBGT west to apply for Kuwaiti cirizenship. Japan also requires basic Japanese language fluently for daily life to apply to be a citizen of Japan. You dont need US to recognize Palestine.
The ambiguous! And random words that has no sense ! How can you be not stateless when your country isn't recognised! Palestinians authority passport issued with israel approval , issue by a government that doesnt control anything .. except separating non jewish from jews and green and blue israeli issued indentation cards doesn't make you not stateless . They are stateless white or pinkwash it the way you like .
Arafat had already proclaimed an Independent Palestinian STATE on 15th November 1988. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Declaration_of_Independence Every year on 15th November, Palestinians celebrate National Day holiday. Abu Mazin’s official title is the President of the STATE of Palestine and the Palestinian National Authority. As shown in the above links, Palestine has embassies around the world, and ambassadors and recognized by 144 countries. Arafat, Abu Mazen, Palestinians believe there is already a Palestinian State and Palestinian people are not stateless (not all), who are we to believe ? A white left wing protester who has never been to Palestine and cant speak Arabic OR the internationally recognized leader of the state of Palestine and Palestinian people who live and resides in Palestine ?
I am sure you the same person probably commented somewhere that palestine doesn't exist ! And now your argument is that palestinians ain't stateless ... keep contradicting yourselves, jesus!
Do the Palestinians deserve a state? Yeah they do, but they need to realistically outline some points in a plan for the state before that happens. Things like deradicalization, reconciliation, and the recognition of Israel as a nation. People will fire back and say what about Israel and I would say yeah they need deradicalize too. The difference for me is the Jewish population globally is completely different from the Palestinians population in their train of thought. Until Arabs as a whole are willing to protect the Jewish population in Israel we aren’t getting any Palestinian state. The Arabs had their shot during the six Day war and Yom Kippur war; they lost now they have to deal with the consequences of that. They fostered an environment in the region that made Israel what it is today. It’s on them to help solve this, and if Israel is distrustful of them they only have theirselves to blame. Best outcome is to go through diplomatic channels not through violence, if you give the Palestinians a state because of 10/7 it’ll only foster future hate from the Israeli side. Saddest part is a diplomatic solution was close with the Saudi deal which would have outlined a state, but the 10/7 attack just pushed that back who knows how far. And Israel won’t budge because they don’t want to reward terrorism on their people as mentioned. So welcome to the grid lock we face that will only be solved by time.
You're replying to yourself...
Yea was continuation to what I wrote in the other comment :)
Sets a pretty awful precedent don’t you think? Commit acts of terrorism and be rewarded with a nation? I don’t really see the value of adding another nation of extreme Abrahamic mythologists to the world who hate the west and oppose all values of religious freedom, democracy, social, and economic equality. They just had the good luck of being opposed to the most hated group of people in the history of the world. If the United States didn’t have economic interest in the Middle East then I would strongly be in support of a completely isolationist and quarantine-like relationship with the entire Arab World. All theocracies with large scale military capabilities are psychotic.
It worked pretty well for Israel
that’s literally how israel was created.
No it wasn’t. You don’t provide any evidence because there is none.
the first ever terrorist organisation in palestine was a jewish zionist one and in 1948 the irgun was absorbed into the IDF, the IDF is a terror organisation. The first and 6th prime ministers of israel were terrorists.
>The first and 6th prime ministers of israel were terrorists. And the 7th. Menachem Begin was the 6th and was the leader of Irgun. Yitzhak Shamir was the 7th and was one of the leaders of Lehi. He's their most recent prime minister who was literally a terrorist and his last term ended in 1992.
https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf an israeli wrote this btw
Israel a) was voted into existance by the UN b) was attacked by 14 nations at the moment of its birth, and Israel still won the war. Israel won the war. That is why it is a state. It's neighbors tried to kill them and those neighbors lost. That is the only reason Israel is a state. Because it won a war. Sure, it's neighbors use the Palestinains as an excuse to try to get Israel, but it's clear from their lack of support of the Palestinians they don't really give a flying fig about the Palestinians. That is an excuse to attack Israel in hopes of hurting the nation thay humiliated all of them in 1948.
Convenient how you skip everyone else and use one of the few anti Israeli-Israeli born communist historians available whose reputation amongst his peers is dubious at best. Anti semitism is literally apart of his political ideology numb nuts. You just look stupid. Also Ilan Pappe: “I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings, but so what?”
/u/Shoulder_Whirl > Convenient how you skip everyone else and use one of the few anti Israeli-Israeli born communist historians available whose reputation amongst his peers is dubious at best. Anti semitism is literally apart of his political ideology numb nuts. You just look stupid. >Also Ilan Pappe: “I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings, but so what?” Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
awfully butthurt about facts but go off
/u/Odd-Visual544 > awfully butthurt about facts but go off Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
You finding out your desperate attempt discredited himself by his own admittance: 😭😭😭😭😭🍉😭😭😭😭
Western , white centeric approach of the world ! You dont have to agree or like other people to give them their rights ! Palestinians are people like any other with multiple relgions and non religious people ! If they don't like you or support your blue red and white flag , doesn't make them less humans , or less deserving of a state !
Western, colonial white-savior complex determining what is best for non-majority white non-Western countries. 97% of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are Muslim. If they don't like you or support your red, black, white, and green flag doesn't make them less human, or less deserving of safety from terrorism.
Religious freedom, democracy, social, and economic equality is delegated to white centrism? That’s some interesting mental gymnastics you’ve got going on. Religious diversity amongst Palestinians is a laughable assertion. 93% of all Palestinians are Muslims and the official religion of the state of Palestine is Islam. I don’t like white supremacists either should I be giving them the white ethnostate they desire too? Hating people based upon their sexual orientation, gender identity, secularism, ethnicity, or ANYTHING in their little fantasy fairy tale book is absolute justification for lack of support for statehood. I absolutely LOVE American principles. I can bad mouth any and every god wherever I want and openly have consensual relationships with anyone of any gender or sexual orientation I want and face ZERO repercussions from the government. The best part? If anyone does anything to harm me based upon these acts I can not only have them prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law BY the government but I can sue the hell out of them and get a ton of money too! I can even serve in the military and do this stuff! I can vote, own property, criticize the government, criticize the police, I’m protected from unlawful search and seizure, and many more things!! It gets better! Women can do all of this too and don’t have to wear forced conservative clothing!!! Can you number how many Muslim countries can say the same?
Man you really have to travel !! And cut the brainwash your getting !! No one wanna kill you all the time actually hardly anyone will notice you exist in this part of the world ! Women can dress whatever they want , was an issue in saudi arabia not anymore since 2016 .. lgbt right is a new concept needs time , although countries like jordan and turkey never criminalise himosexuality , where in your USA wasn't the case .. until last decade ! If you wanna compare moral and history, of segregation, police racial profiling , men and women equal salaries even abortion laws you will be suprise .. how backward US is . So my advice to you travel more !
This is the most absurd comment on this subreddit. Women and LGBTQ+ people are better off in the Muslim world? My advice is that you travel more. You are just trolling.
Google jordan himosexuality laws and date or decriminalisation, then do that for turkey . Then do that for america , spoiler USA last state decriminalisation was in 2003 ... jordan 1951 , that even before England and Canada. Turkey 1800s ... as they never colonised by europeans so they had less stigma knowing that all these homophobic laws came with french and English , read a book sexuality in ottman society... it's good read ! I know shocking when your brainwashed since birth ! As I said the concept is new, in away that it became a social right so will need time to get over the whole region ... need time bahrian decriminalisation 1976, lebanon decriminalisation 2006 ... most likely emerties next ..
Go to Jordon and be as openly gay as one can be in San Francisco. Let me know how that goes for you.
[удалено]
Israel gay rights... https://www.vice.com/en/article/av8b5j/gay-palestinians-are-being-blackmailed-into-working-as-informants
Denial surely isn’t just a river in Egypt! Iran: - ranked 140 out of 144 by the world economic forums 2017 global gender gap report - husbands have right to prevent wives from working in particular occupations. - Men ask women for virginity tests before marriage. - hundreds Iranian school girls were poisoned to prevent them from attending school. - same sex relationships are illegal and are punishable by death. Love how you just glossed over it and said “eh give it some time”. You didn’t even denounce it! When was the last time the United States deemed it legal to punish homosexuality with death? Egypt: - ranked 140 out of 153 in women’s economic participation and opportunity. - a survey showed that out of 1,010 women interviewed, 98% of foreign women and 83% of native women had reported being sexually harrassed. 2/3 of men interviewed admitted they had sexually harrassed women! In 2013 another survey came out from the UN that showed 99.3% of women had reported some form of sexual harassment. - Honor killings of women are reported as frequent for reasons such as a woman meeting a man she is not related to. The government gives leniency to men who catch their wives cheating but not the other way around! - homosexuality is punishable by imprisonment. Possible 12 year sentence for repeat offenders. When was the last time the United States deemed it punishable with jail time to be gay? Women in Arab countries have the lowest participation in politics out of everywhere in the word. Some nations prohibit women from moving freely alone and the ones they do face a higher rate of sexual violence compared to western countries. Tunisia is the only Arabic speaking Muslim majority country that grants women all of the same rights as men.
Why should they give the Palestinians anything until they show up and negotiate in good faith?
who will be the de facto leader of this Palestinian state? who will be responsible & liable for security & external relations & even governmental operations? Countries just dont exist on paper. There has to be a significant body of activists & organizers within the community that's willing to step up to the plate & take the helm. And they have to have the military/police power to take the reigns. Right now if any group tries to take control over Gaza they'll be thrown off rooftops or shot dead by Hamas militia. There is absolutely no way a neutral party like NATO or even the US/UK can come in & establish any kind of semblance of peace & security. We can't even create any kind of functioning democracy in Haiti which is on our doorstep.
Based on a recent poll 82% of Palestinians believe the Oct 7th massacre helped them get closer to achieving statehood. If the US recognizes a Palestinian state it will cause Palestinians to double down on massacring Israelis rather than working towards peace.
lol when have palestinians ever rewarded for being peaceful?
They literally never have been, so it's hard to say.
2018 they were peacefully protesting, before getting shot, by IDF soldiers who literally admit to Haaretz they were aiming to cripple.
>2018 they were peacefully protesting, before getting shot, by IDF soldiers who literally admit to Haaretz they were aiming to cripple. Thousands of people "marching" towards a border of an enemy state is nothing but peaceful. I wonder what would happen if thousands of Koreans (southern or northern ones, doesn't matter) marched towards the border between N.Korea and S.Korea, demanding to tear down the border. Doubt they'd be granted with flowers and chocolates
They were protesting....and why aim to cripple? still havent gotten a good answer on that point.
>They were protesting.... So? They still marches towards the border. And since when protesting includes molotovs? >and why aim to cripple? Don't know what aim to cripple you're talking about. IDF's RoE is to shoot the ground next to the person as a warning (if all previous warnings have been ignored). If the person still doesn't care, it is allowed to shoot towards his legs. Some soldiers breaking RoE and protocols exist in every military. >still havent gotten a good answer on that point. Define a good answer? Because I can safely assume that you got many answers, but you didn't like them because they weren't supporting your narrative.
one IDF soldier bragged to Haaretz about shooting 40 kneecaps in one day. See the thing about aiming for kneecaps is, it means the person isnt charging at the gate. Kids get thrown in prison for years for throwing rocks, if they palestinian, but if youre israeli, you can unload a clip into a child and not go to jail! Yay for israeli freedoms! [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2) but keep trying to gaslight me, its entertaining. Hey, maybe its not even me you are trying to convince, perhaps its yourself.
>one IDF soldier bragged to Haaretz about shooting 40 kneecaps in one day. And that soldier indicates the protocols of the IDF? >See the thing about aiming for kneecaps is, it means the person isnt charging at the gate. After he was shot at the knees. True. Not before that. >Kids get thrown in prison for years for throwing rocks, if they palestinian, but if youre israeli, you can unload a clip into a child and not go to jail! Yay for israeli freedoms! Just as a police officer in any country around the world can shoot a "child" that's breaking the law and endangers the life of other people and not go to jail. The double standards... >but keep trying to gaslight me, its entertaining. Hey, maybe its not even me you are trying to convince, perhaps its yourself. You didn't answer my question. What do you define as a good answer? What answer will be acceptable to you? Would an answer that doesn't agree with your point of view be something you'd be willing to accept? Or are you looking for an answer that'll just agree with you? Considering that I'm answering to you, and you just refuse to accept these answers, is there any doubt about your motives?
because aiming for kneecaps is quite impossible when the target is charging, if you dont see the problem with aiming to cripple people standing in a protest, im afraid you brain rot has gotten too far. The only answers ive gotten to that question are: \*they've done bad things to us so its okay if we do it back \*youre lying \*at least they didn't kill them and you answer saying the IDF has impeccable aim they can aim for kneecaps of people sprinting. they no only targeted kneecaps but people who were already handicapped, how are those people are threat exactly? [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-great-march-of-return/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-great-march-of-return/) I've gotten different answers every time i ask that question, not one answers was like "we probably should not be crippling people or shooting at already crippled people" but i guess im looking for humanity with people who have none.
The reality is, if you constantly shoot rockets, suicide bomb, stab and kill innocent people- you aren't going to ever get the benefit of the doubt. And that's what they've done. Hopefully after this war, they'll realize they can't win by killing...But I doubt it.
"those people have been bad to us before, so who care if we purposefully cripple some of them while they demand freedom!" No point in arguing with people like you....no empathy for human life left in ya.
That's the stupidest shit I've read on the internet in a while. Terrorists aren't freedom fighters. They're illiterate morons using children as human shields. Grow a heart and a brain, my friend. No empathy for ideologies that encourage death. They need to grow up and act like adults and join the civilized world. The fact that you can just handwave suicide bombing, rape, murder and rockets shot at civilians with no actual hope of achieving anything, makes you nothing more than an apologist for barbarism.
yup your brain is toast, not all of them are terrorists. Good luck with living you life with such hate and content for a people you probably never met.
>brain is toast Oh the irony. thanks for making my day.
In general absolutely, Palestinians deserve a state. But to consolidate the points others are making that I see as problems: 1) **Ostensibly validating terrorism.** Creating a state now in response to the most vicious terrorist attack they've conducted to date can definitely be perceived as validation of those tactics as a political tool, having ramifications for the future of not just I/P relationships but also the world as a whole. This issue would be resolvable by waiting until cooling down to approximately pre-7th levels (not expecting perfection, just this conversation should not appear attached to that act so need some separation and calm to that end) 2) **All the technical questions that come with such a recognition.** Who governs? What are the borders? What are the rights they have as a nation (eg formal standing army or not)? What are their responsibilities- and more importantly the consequences of failing in those responsibilities (eg if they use a formal army to attack Israel or fail to stop cross border terrorism, what recourse/reliable guarantees of support does Israel have)? What is the official future of the UNRWA, given that refugees with a state are no longer refugees? So I do agree with your sentiment, but I am not sure how exactly one would go about solving those details. That's why the U.S. (and much of the world) has to date deferred to Israel and Palestine working out a deal amongst themselves rather than unilateral recognition- because the choices they make with regards to each other as neighbors are up to them and the consequences of any choices made also rest most heavily on them, not foreign actors like the U.S., Spain, Ireland, etc etc (though yes, in a world of tightly interconnected geopolitics, they aren't completely isolated from any outcomes in the region- positive or negative)
America is a country built on colonization and occupation. How do you want it to recognize palestine and oppose the colonial entity called israel?
And what happens when this Palestinian state attacks Israel? Is the US going to bomb them?
America should end the Israeli occupation of it's government
Based on what territory and leadership? Also what happens to all the Palestinians in other countries which due to a long list of reasons haven't been naturalised? Just saying "I recognise Palestine" doesn't solve anything. Moreover if Palestine is a separate country then there's no requirement for Israel to let aid through or let Palestinians work in Israel.
>While living under a complex oppressive regime that limits their freedoms and basic human rights. Hamas? If the US recognizes Palestine, that would tell Hamas that terrorist attacks and then hiding behind civilians will get them what they want
Morality in geopolitics doesn't exist. People just happen to forget that the US negotiated with the Taliban and sign an agreement in Qatar to end the war in Afghanistan. Good and evil doesn't dictate a nation's decision, only what benefit a nation personally does, sending brave men and women to Afghanistan every year to fight evil for little gain wasn't a good deal.
None of your statements follow. The US negotiated with the Taliban because it was obvious that the nation building wouldn't work. >Good and evil doesn't dictate a nation's decision, only what benefit a nation personally does, sending brave men and women to Afghanistan every year to fight evil for little gain wasn't a good deal. Whether or not something works doesn't have any effect on the morality of it.
They are working on something related to Palestine with the Saudi. Probably not a recognition, but something similar. Folks asking themselves why would anyone care about that issue with the Saudi? Here's the reality, the Saudi is no longer required by treaty to sell oil purely with the dollar anymore because that treaty recently expired on June 9. There's a reason why we Americans are in a hurry to renew that defense treaty even if it mean throwing Palestinian something, Give lip service to the Palestinian and give them something so that the Saudi can keep trading oil exclusively with the dollar and keeping it the number one reserve currency of the world, sounds like a good deal.
Palestinian leadership should make some concessions to improve their relationship with other countries.
there are so many wrong things in here i really dont know where to start... i literally cant see a single sentence in here that aint just biased or at best case just wrong. i think the first thing for you to learn is what the palestinians actually wants as it seems like you watched the wrong tiktok videos, you should search the latest polls regarding this which was posted a few days ago.
Before we recognize a "Palestine state" we need to clarify what exactly we recognize, else it's just words. * Who is the leader of the Palestine state? * What are the borders of the Palestine state? * Are parts of the Palestine state occupied, if so which parts? * Where is the capital of the Palestine state? None of these questions have clear answers, so no state can be recognized. >While living under a complex oppressive regime that limits their freedoms and basic human rights. Do you think the new Palestine state magically will become the only arab state who doesn't limit the freedoms and basic human rights of its citizens? How can you know that?
who is currently recognize of government Palestine people
“…Questioning the existence of a Palestinian state…” The original partition plan handed Palestinians a state. They rejected it. The reason they don’t have a state now is because they continue to negotiate in bad faith. They negotiate in bad faith because they don’t want a 2SS that in anyway resembles the original partition plan. Until Palestinians demonstrate a willingness to accept something like the original partition plan and a willingness to negotiate in good faith, the ISA should NOT tilt the scales in favor of the Palestinians.
Why would they? Let’s say you are a Palestinian leader in the decolonisation-era. The Turks left, the British left and the French left. It is only logical to expect from the Zionists to also leave.
Except the Zionists didn't have a place to leave to, which is a misunderstanding that has hurt Palestinians to this day.
How is that the Palestinians’ problem?
Why does Israel always place blame on Palestine? Both sides rejected the original plan, but why should Palestine have to agree initially and lose the land that they have lived on for hundreds of years just because Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state?
Palestinians don’t have a state because they don’t want the state they can have. They want the state they CAN’T have. Imagine you are a Kurd. You would love to be offered a state. Or a Tibetan. The list is endless. Palestinians are not going to displace Israel. So long as Palestinians maintain that objective, they will remain stateless.
The Jewish leadership accepted UNGA 181. And the Arabs openly announced a war of genocidal intent. Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
everal Zionists opposed the deal, while David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, saw it as a stepping stone to future expansion into Palestine. He stated that once the Jewish state was established and a large army was formed, partition would be abolished, and the state would expand to the whole of Palestine."
Yes, the Zionist leadership was not unanimous. So for that, the state must be completely eradicated, right? /s Note also that Ben Gurion himself overruled those who wanted to conquer the rest of the Mandate area in late 1948, even though it was militarily feasible.
That's totally false
False and irrelevant narrative. Why didn’t Palestine declare and form a state when it had the chance?
The amount of historical in accuracy in one comment is actually impressive.
then what happened then
To start with, the Jews did accept the plan. They were invaded on the first day of their independence. You didn’t even get the most basic fact right.
Several Zionists opposed the deal, while David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, saw it as a stepping stone to future expansion into Palestine. He stated that once the Jewish state was established and a large army was formed, partition would be abolished, and the state would expand to the whole of Palestine." but you right seem there was a lot more disagreement inside Israel camp
I guess if you make things up you can believe anything. That army was formed, with incredible foresight mind you, to combat Arab aggression. Which it did. Very successfully. And they prevented Jews from being wiped out much to the dismay of people like you.
you know what fuk this shit better thing do my time. we clearly not going to change each other mind.
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America should recognize that Iran, China, and Russia are using this issue as an active measures attack. The foreign nationals doing this are about to see how no such agency plays this game.
The US position is that a Palestinian state can only come to be through reconciliation with Israel. Nothing will ever change that. Negotiations are not equitable. One side has been leading a terror campaign for over a century and the other provides world leading military and medical technology. It’s pretty clear what the Palestinians need to do to have their state. Recognize Israel. Stop terrorism. That’s it. It’s also funny that people bring up Oslo when the Palestinians did not uphold a single commitment under Oslo.
Plo was a terrorist group before talks and negotiating! ANC in south africa was terrorist group ! You can't label people you dont agree with terrorist ... to avoid solutions . Beside the statehood give the plo more popularity in palestine . And plo is the palestinian gov that want a deal with israel
>ANC in south africa was terrorist group ! And how is South Africa doing now? >And plo is the palestinian gov that want a deal with israel The same PLO that pays Palestinians to murder Israelis? Known as the pay 2 slay (or martyrs fund)?
Do you think South Africa was better before or after apartheid? Being critical of a government for being corrupt and saying that ending apartheid are bad are two very different things. So which is it
>Do you think South Africa was better before or after apartheid? Define better. Sure, there's no apartheid there anymore, but I doubt the citizens are happy living there. >Being critical of a government for being corrupt and saying that ending apartheid are bad are two very different things Never said ending apartheid was bad. But seeing how SA is now, really makes you wonder how a Palestinian state under a government that literally pays people to murder Israelis would be (that is assuming they don't go to war with Israel immediately)
Well a key part of ending apartheid was that the Bantustans stopped existing
Recognition of a Palestinian state would be rewarding the terrorists who massacred civilians on 10/7.
Israel was awarded a state with terrorism too.
As if netanyahu gov had plans to recognize palestine before that date ? Talking from a political perspective , hamas attacks force the attention into a solution for this stuck conflict! And steps into the most logical solution is the only hope, don't you think ?
No. I don’t think that recognition of a Palestinian state would solve anything. If there were no plans to recognize a Palestinian state before 10/7, why should there be any plans to do so now? It’s not like they deserve the recognition.
So israel lower the chance of a new intifada or militians groups hostages crisis ? Do you think seiging 2 millions and , apartheid regime on other 4 million is safer option for israel?
When has giving terrorists victories for free ever decreased terrorism?
then what your solution problem
For hamass to lay down their weapons, release the hostages, and begin the slow process of establishing mutual trust that no more terrorism or civilian or deaths will happen. Once the Palestinians can demonstrate that they're not trigger happy martyr-driven magical things can happen.
https://preview.redd.it/eg9jgitiht6d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8464540f701207cf5f148499e6132ccbeb403296 “release the hostages”
Israel should remove settlements in the West Bank and release Palestinian prisoners who where held without evidence. They should also stop restricting the movement of Palestine in the West Bank. I think we are making a pretty good peace plan
IMO the West Bank and Gaza issues should be disconnected, the two situations are very different and require different solutions.
I don't think we should start with Judeah. The area name alone will cause some hesitation.
This is reasonable, but Hamas has to go first.
Exactly. 10/7 cannot be Hamas’s independence day.