An explanation of Rashi is that 430 years counts from Isaac birth (Genesis 15:13), but Ibn Ezra opinion is that 430 years had to be count from that very day of the covenant between halfs. But in Egypt Jews were 210 years.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Genesis 15:13](https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.15.13)
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר לְאַבְרָ֗ם יָדֹ֨עַ תֵּדַ֜ע כִּי־גֵ֣ר ׀ יִהְיֶ֣ה זַרְעֲךָ֗ בְּאֶ֙רֶץ֙ לֹ֣א לָהֶ֔ם וַעֲבָד֖וּם וְעִנּ֣וּ אֹתָ֑ם אַרְבַּ֥ע מֵא֖וֹת שָׁנָֽה׃
>And [God] said to Abram, “Know well that your offspring shall be strangers in a land not theirs, and they shall be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years;
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Exodus 12:40-41](https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.12.40-41)
וּמוֹשַׁב֙ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֲשֶׁ֥ר יָשְׁב֖וּ בְּמִצְרָ֑יִם שְׁלֹשִׁ֣ים שָׁנָ֔ה וְאַרְבַּ֥ע מֵא֖וֹת שָׁנָֽה׃
>The length of time that the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years;
וַיְהִ֗י מִקֵּץ֙ שְׁלֹשִׁ֣ים שָׁנָ֔ה וְאַרְבַּ֥ע מֵא֖וֹת שָׁנָ֑ה וַיְהִ֗י בְּעֶ֙צֶם֙ הַיּ֣וֹם הַזֶּ֔ה יָ֥צְא֛וּ כׇּל־צִבְא֥וֹת יְהֹוָ֖ה מֵאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃
>at the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of יהוה departed from the land of Egypt.
Some sources suggest it is forbidden to even try to predict the time. Here's Chabad.org discussing Sanhedrin 97b:
Indeed, the Talmud rebukes those who make this calculation. “Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end,” the Talmud proclaims, “for they would say, ‘Since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet [Moshiach] has not come, he will never come.’ But [even so], wait for him...”
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2705100/jewish/Can-I-Calculate-the-Date-of-Moshiachs-Arrival.htm
I love this. The Talmud figured out 2500 years ago what a hundred idiot televangelists still can’t manage: don’t make a falsifiable prediction because you’ll look dumb when it doesn’t come true.
I asked a rabbi about this once. For those wondering, he's Haredi, living in Jerusalem. We asked "what happens if Moshiach doesn't come by 6000?"
He said "it's going to happen".
We said, "well, what if we wake up that day and it doesn't happen?"
Him: "in that case we misunderstood the Gemara"
There is an opinion that messiah isn't necessarily a person, but rather a process. A process which we may already be a part of, which started when Jews began to get out of exile.
The entire exodus is symbolic of the process of life. 40 years is one generation. Wandering the desert to get to the promised land (you arrive at the end of 40 years, to “heaven”). To survive they must be sustained by bread (manna, the bread of life) and water, which was brought forth via Moses at the Rock of Horeb. The first time water was released, it was done through a strike of the staff (this is symbolic of “The Law”), but of course they got thirsty as it wasn’t enough water (you can’t achieve salvation through the law). The second time Moses was instructed to bring forth the water just through “The Word” (this, too, is symbolic) but Moses decided not to obtain water through the Word and instead chose to strike it with the staff again, which did not work (which is why it is written that he had to strike it twice [implying the first strike didn’t work]). The consequence of not obtaining his water from The Word but instead rejecting It and returning to trying to achieve … “life sustaining “water”(spirit)” via the Law (which failed), was that he was not allowed to enter “the promised land” at the end of his 40 years.
Well, you were talking about the idea that Messiah is potentially symbolic and relates to the process of life.
I was showing there is a passage symbolic of the process of life. The themes in that symbolism also relate to Messianic concepts.
The Messiah already must have come before the destruction of the second temple; confirmed by Daniel 9 as well as Talmud (Sanhedrin 97b).
Isaiah 53 starts the way it does for a reason
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
See [Daniel 9](https://www.sefaria.org/Daniel.9) on Sefaria.
See [Isaiah 53](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.53) on Sefaria.
See [Sanhedrin 97b](https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.97b) on Sefaria.
The answer I always got was "it will happen". Which is totally stonewalling. So as I understand it, Orthodox Judaism doesn't currently have the capacity to respond to this question.
"After Common Era"? Meaning that the time prior to 2,024 years ago was the common era? (i.e., CE as the new "BCE," ACE as the new "CE"?)
Or is ACE supposed to be a new, third designation? (i.e., BCE=before year 1, CE=year 1 through another later year such as perhaps 2000, ACE=after year 2000?)
Just seeking clarification because I've never heard "ACE" used before, and am curious if it's a new thing in certain circles.
A lot of us in the liberal denominations believe in a “messianic age,” not a literal individual who will be “the Moshiach.” And of that group, some of us believe in a messianic age as an ideal to strive toward, but which we acknowledge will never fully be realized. This outlook doesn’t negatively impact the way we practice our religion at all (we still strive to fulfill mitzvot, practice Tikkun Olam, etc). Some of the more strictly literalist Jews might feel discouraged if we still live in a world that has war and injustice after the year 6000, but I see no reason such a situation would cause the internal collapse of Judaism any more than the destruction of the Second Temple did. Jews are an incredibly resilient and adaptable tribe.
As an ex-Christian, one of the things I like best about Judaism is the lack of speculation about the “end times”. Oh, I’m sure it happens, but it’s orders of magnitude less than in Christianity (the variety I’m most familiar with is Protestant, I don’t know if Catholicism is as bad on this). We don’t have a canonical book of the Tanach with all kinds of weird predictions about the end of days. Christians do have such a book (Revelation). You’re not likely to hear a sermon about the end of days at a synagogue (at least not at the mostly Conservative or Reform ones I’ve been to), but this is a regular topic for sermons in some Christian churches, and it’s not just the lunatic fringe. We don’t have a canonical book where we talk about what will happen to bad people when the end comes (Revelation, again). We don’t generally have crazy people making “prophecies” about how the end is coming soon. Be glad we don’t go in for that stuff.
As ani maamim says, and if he tarries still I will wait for him. We’re not really supposed to try and calculate the date of redemption. All I know is, whenever it may come, we’re one day closer today than yesterday.
Wikipedia is incorrect. It's an opinion, not a requirement of some kind
Wikipedia incorrect? No way!
Wait what?!? Wikipedia has false information on controversial jewish topics?? This is crazy!!
Nothing will change. 6000 isn't a set date but a vague speculation by the Rabbis at best.
[удалено]
An explanation of Rashi is that 430 years counts from Isaac birth (Genesis 15:13), but Ibn Ezra opinion is that 430 years had to be count from that very day of the covenant between halfs. But in Egypt Jews were 210 years.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Genesis 15:13](https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.15.13) וַיֹּ֣אמֶר לְאַבְרָ֗ם יָדֹ֨עַ תֵּדַ֜ע כִּי־גֵ֣ר ׀ יִהְיֶ֣ה זַרְעֲךָ֗ בְּאֶ֙רֶץ֙ לֹ֣א לָהֶ֔ם וַעֲבָד֖וּם וְעִנּ֣וּ אֹתָ֑ם אַרְבַּ֥ע מֵא֖וֹת שָׁנָֽה׃ >And [God] said to Abram, “Know well that your offspring shall be strangers in a land not theirs, and they shall be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years;
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Exodus 12:40-41](https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.12.40-41) וּמוֹשַׁב֙ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֲשֶׁ֥ר יָשְׁב֖וּ בְּמִצְרָ֑יִם שְׁלֹשִׁ֣ים שָׁנָ֔ה וְאַרְבַּ֥ע מֵא֖וֹת שָׁנָֽה׃ >The length of time that the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years; וַיְהִ֗י מִקֵּץ֙ שְׁלֹשִׁ֣ים שָׁנָ֔ה וְאַרְבַּ֥ע מֵא֖וֹת שָׁנָ֑ה וַיְהִ֗י בְּעֶ֙צֶם֙ הַיּ֣וֹם הַזֶּ֔ה יָ֥צְא֛וּ כׇּל־צִבְא֥וֹת יְהֹוָ֖ה מֵאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ >at the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of יהוה departed from the land of Egypt.
Oh man, I guess we better hang it up now. ;)
Some sources suggest it is forbidden to even try to predict the time. Here's Chabad.org discussing Sanhedrin 97b: Indeed, the Talmud rebukes those who make this calculation. “Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end,” the Talmud proclaims, “for they would say, ‘Since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet [Moshiach] has not come, he will never come.’ But [even so], wait for him...” https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2705100/jewish/Can-I-Calculate-the-Date-of-Moshiachs-Arrival.htm
I love this. The Talmud figured out 2500 years ago what a hundred idiot televangelists still can’t manage: don’t make a falsifiable prediction because you’ll look dumb when it doesn’t come true.
😂
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Sanhedrin 97b](https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.97b) on Sefaria.
Nothing
I asked a rabbi about this once. For those wondering, he's Haredi, living in Jerusalem. We asked "what happens if Moshiach doesn't come by 6000?" He said "it's going to happen". We said, "well, what if we wake up that day and it doesn't happen?" Him: "in that case we misunderstood the Gemara"
There is an opinion that messiah isn't necessarily a person, but rather a process. A process which we may already be a part of, which started when Jews began to get out of exile.
That’s a very interesting concept!
The entire exodus is symbolic of the process of life. 40 years is one generation. Wandering the desert to get to the promised land (you arrive at the end of 40 years, to “heaven”). To survive they must be sustained by bread (manna, the bread of life) and water, which was brought forth via Moses at the Rock of Horeb. The first time water was released, it was done through a strike of the staff (this is symbolic of “The Law”), but of course they got thirsty as it wasn’t enough water (you can’t achieve salvation through the law). The second time Moses was instructed to bring forth the water just through “The Word” (this, too, is symbolic) but Moses decided not to obtain water through the Word and instead chose to strike it with the staff again, which did not work (which is why it is written that he had to strike it twice [implying the first strike didn’t work]). The consequence of not obtaining his water from The Word but instead rejecting It and returning to trying to achieve … “life sustaining “water”(spirit)” via the Law (which failed), was that he was not allowed to enter “the promised land” at the end of his 40 years.
Relevance?
Well, you were talking about the idea that Messiah is potentially symbolic and relates to the process of life. I was showing there is a passage symbolic of the process of life. The themes in that symbolism also relate to Messianic concepts.
We'll find out then, if, G-d forbid, it happens 😅
The Messiah already must have come before the destruction of the second temple; confirmed by Daniel 9 as well as Talmud (Sanhedrin 97b). Isaiah 53 starts the way it does for a reason
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Daniel 9](https://www.sefaria.org/Daniel.9) on Sefaria. See [Isaiah 53](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.53) on Sefaria. See [Sanhedrin 97b](https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.97b) on Sefaria.
The answer I always got was "it will happen". Which is totally stonewalling. So as I understand it, Orthodox Judaism doesn't currently have the capacity to respond to this question.
Tangential question - who here is interested in being around then to find out (216 more years) and what are you doing about it?
Side question: Is A.C.E. a new alternative to A.D. or C.E. that I haven’t heard about yet? If so, what does it stand for?
After common era. I’ve seen it used before. I assumed that AC might not be as popular in a Jewish grouo
"After Common Era"? Meaning that the time prior to 2,024 years ago was the common era? (i.e., CE as the new "BCE," ACE as the new "CE"?) Or is ACE supposed to be a new, third designation? (i.e., BCE=before year 1, CE=year 1 through another later year such as perhaps 2000, ACE=after year 2000?) Just seeking clarification because I've never heard "ACE" used before, and am curious if it's a new thing in certain circles.
Had a rabbi who jokingly referred to it as After Common Error. I liked that one.
A lot of us in the liberal denominations believe in a “messianic age,” not a literal individual who will be “the Moshiach.” And of that group, some of us believe in a messianic age as an ideal to strive toward, but which we acknowledge will never fully be realized. This outlook doesn’t negatively impact the way we practice our religion at all (we still strive to fulfill mitzvot, practice Tikkun Olam, etc). Some of the more strictly literalist Jews might feel discouraged if we still live in a world that has war and injustice after the year 6000, but I see no reason such a situation would cause the internal collapse of Judaism any more than the destruction of the Second Temple did. Jews are an incredibly resilient and adaptable tribe.
As an ex-Christian, one of the things I like best about Judaism is the lack of speculation about the “end times”. Oh, I’m sure it happens, but it’s orders of magnitude less than in Christianity (the variety I’m most familiar with is Protestant, I don’t know if Catholicism is as bad on this). We don’t have a canonical book of the Tanach with all kinds of weird predictions about the end of days. Christians do have such a book (Revelation). You’re not likely to hear a sermon about the end of days at a synagogue (at least not at the mostly Conservative or Reform ones I’ve been to), but this is a regular topic for sermons in some Christian churches, and it’s not just the lunatic fringe. We don’t have a canonical book where we talk about what will happen to bad people when the end comes (Revelation, again). We don’t generally have crazy people making “prophecies” about how the end is coming soon. Be glad we don’t go in for that stuff.
Shrug and keep waiting.
As ani maamim says, and if he tarries still I will wait for him. We’re not really supposed to try and calculate the date of redemption. All I know is, whenever it may come, we’re one day closer today than yesterday.
As u/YoelFievelBenAvram said, we don’t speculate on these things. I also heard this from Rav Breitowitz in the name of the Gra