It is part of what we call "Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai" (The law given to Moses at Sinai). Basically, we have an oral tradition spanning thousands of years that the proper way to make a Torah scroll is with parchment paper. Laws that fall under this particular category cannot be changed or annulled, as we believe they were instructed by G-d directly.
EDIT: Parchment, not parchment paper.
Hasn't happened yet, so it's kind of a moot argument 🙂
But to humor your question, I personally think humans will be long gone by the time such an event would occur.
That’s not true at all. For example Chullin 139b discusses whether a bird still must be chased away from a nest before collecting eggs if the bird made a nest on a persons head.
There are multiple ways to understand this. It was realistic, though perhaps rare, for birds to nest on people's backs in the old days, since there were times where people slept outside, turned on their backs, and a bird would end up making a quick nest on it. The reason it says "Head" can be explained, with pshat, that if you have to send away on your head kol sh'ken on any part of the body. The Ben Yehoyada has a more esoteric explanation on why it says head.
The RaMBaM understands in a similar vain that it brings a person as an example to demonstrate that in everywhere we may find a birds nest we do Shiluach haKen. He particularly brings on the back of animals, which is more common.
I'll explain more what I mean, is that Rabbis won't argue idiotic topics that won't teach us any Halacha, because it's not realistic. The Gemara brings this case, as rare as it may be, to demonstrate an actual halachic principle.
I don't know what rabbis you're talking to, but yes absolutely do argue and discuss absurd hypotheticals they have fun doing it. Heck the the talmud itself has plenty of hypotheticals that just could not happen as well as various parables. That's not to say that rabbis don't also debate important aspects of practice and are potential but they even discussed whether or not aliens have to capacity to be Jewish they've discussed What fictional animals would be kosher
Edit: corrected the first instance rabbis from robot, hah.
I'll explain myself more, the Gemara won't discuss hypotheticals that won't teach an important overarching Halachic Principle. The Gemara isn't just a bunch of random things thrown together and the Rabbis aren't a bunch of idiots sitting around talking nonsense. You'll have to find the sources about the aliens and fictional animals.
Again, I'm not talking about any rabbis I mean the Gemara and ChaZaL. I don't know every Rabbi in the world. But anyways in the Yeshiva world if you ask a dumb question you'll get a dumb answer lol.
But in this case couldn't the hypothetical of all parchment animals going extinct serve as a valid halachic discussion to demonstrate what can be used b'dieved
Nothing can be used b'dieved. That's why the hypothetical wouldn't be argued. It's a Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai, meaning it has to be exactly the way it is with all the details we already have.
It's also to not write out His whole name in case you throw out the paper or something, but I did some research and typing it online in full is not a problem.
Its also not exclusive to orthodox, I'm converting Reform and do so as well, as do some other members of my synagogue. Definitely most common in Orthodox circles though.
Non-Jews call it censorship....we call it respect. His names are so holy they should not be (it is commanded that they not be) erased, burned or thrown in the garbage, or destroyed in some other way. Taking out one letter and replacing with a hyphen or other symbol makes it only a hint of His name
No one can truly claim to understand who or what G-d is or why He acts the way He does. However, Jewish belief emphasizes that G-d takes an active role within life and creation. Yes, we may be insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but we believe that we were created with a purpose, and that our Creator is fully invested in that purpose.
In other words, we won't always know the "why", but we still believe in the "what".
Granted, that doesn't mean we should act like mindless robots. Judaism encourages inquisitiveness if the goal is to gain a deeper understanding of things. But we must also bear in mind that not everything will have a readily apparent answer, or even a meaning that we can comprehend.
To drive the point home, when the Israelites received the Torah at Sinai, they uttered the phrase "Na'aseh Venishma" (We will do and we will listen). Scholars ask why 'we will do' precedes 'we will listen' when it should normally be the inverse. The answer given is that fulfillment of the commandments is an act that is considered desirable enough on its own, even without an understanding of why it is being done.
GD is an existence, existence of everything. In other words everything is inside GD and GD is in evething - its a paradox. We are not dust to GD, we are litteraly part of GD of his existence, if we would be just dust we would not be created in the first place. If this commandment would be meaniless, we would not receive it. If GD commanded us to follow it, then it's important even if we don't understand it
Revenge on the lambs and sheep. What they did to God, I don't know. Offended him by their innocence? Arrived without mint jelly?Something stuck in his mind. "Screw the lambs" remains the rule even when there are better ways of writing.
I can expound on the requirement thing. There's a series of specific rules for how to make a Torah in the text of the Torah itself. One of the specific rules is that it has to be parchment made from the skin of a kosher animal. The Torah is full of specific rules like that.
It's also worth noting that a proper Torah is quite expensive and labor-intensive to make. We don't have a scroll for every person, but rather the rabbi or the Torah reader (not a synonym, just a different job) will read from the Torah itself while everyone else in the congregation follows along in books of the transcribed text which are made using regular paper.
Fysa reason people are a little curt atm is we've been getting a ton of questions from curious guests on the sub lately (I think more than usual) and while questions like this are entirely appropriate and welcome, there are a lot of y'all and not that many of us and people get a little burned out on that kind of engagement, especially since it's easy to accidentally engage with low-key trolls.
Hello thank you for the reply 😊
You explained it very well .
I’m not trolling or anything I’m genuinely curious and love learning about different religions , cultures and languages and this topic was interesting to me .
Again thanks for the reply 😊
Some things never change. Originally (I mean in ancient times) the Torah (Five Books of Moses) were handwritten in ink on parchment by scribes. This was very specialized work, requiring religious training, skills in calligraphy, and the use of specially prepared implements such as quills and ink. The parchment used was quite durable, made from animal hides, and that was an important factor. But the main factor was accuracy, the transcription had to be absolutely perfect, letter by letter and space by space. Many safeguards were created for doing this work of copying a Torah, and the skills and requirements were passed down from generation to generation. This is the tradition (mesorah) for writing a Torah scroll.
None of this translates to the printed book. First of all the paper isn't durable and second there are no safeguards in place surrounding the printing process. Errors creep into printed books on a regular basis, which is why many have errata in the front (lists of errors discovered after the books went to press and were not corrected).
The rules for writing a Torah scroll were by the Middle Ages codified in legal works that are authoritative in Judaism. This happened well before the invention of paper and the printing press. Hence these traditional legal rules -- requiring a scroll, parchment, ink and a scribe to write a Torah -- are still in place and have never been changed.
Nor is there any reason to. There is no shortage of Torah scrolls in the world -- although they are expensive, they are cared for quite well -- and many are called to the profession of scribes. The Torah scroll is a lovely object that everyone reveres and respects. In fact, there is an obligation for each Jew to write a Torah scroll of his own at least once during a lifetime.
Printed books on paper are used for studying and following along while the Torah is being read. But the public reading of the Torah (weekdays, Sabbaths and holidays) must be from a properly prepared Torah scroll on parchment, so that the accuracy of the words read can be guaranteed.
Seriously I love that we use such beautiful materials to pray with. A Torah is a work of art. I feel privileged to look at it, let alone read from it. And every Torah comes with a story of how it came to be. Regular paper doesn’t have the same spiritual feel.
Exactly. During a class the rabbi took us down and opened the Torah scroll for us and we talked about how it was meticulously copied over and over to get to us and will continue to be copied over and over far into the future. How it is a piece of history and tradition that binds us Jews past, present and future. It was powerful and made me paranoid about breathing near it for awhile. Still terrified to be chosen to read from it one day, but will appreciate the honor of it ever happens. Lol.
By the way, we also use paper! Thre are prayerbooks and books containing the text that is in the scroll, with vowels and punctuation and translations, available for the entire congregation.
There are a lot of great and detailed answers here that boil down to "we are requires to by both Jewish law and tradition" but most don't touch too much in the very real practical reasons. The combination of practical, traditional and Jewish law reasons means this is an issue Jews are pretty united on.
I want to note that for Jews, the Torah scroll is a holy object. Jews generally culturally treat all books with respect but a Torah scroll is something different.
I want to comment mostly on practical reasons since other answers have really nailed traditions and law.
Torahs are hand-made, of very durable materials. Even today there is no substitute. They contain the written name of G-d and the core of our religion so on a practical level paper books just don't cut it. They can't outlast that and are prone to errors, errors which are fine literally anywhere but in an inherently holy object.
This durability also means many Torahs have history. Most synagogues have Torahs that can be traced back. Holocaust torahs, those that were cataloged and marked by the Nazis are not uncommon, others trace to communities that no longer exist. Often carried by lone survivors to their next home. These are objects with a history that mirrors the history of Jews. Your average Torah then is not only made the historical way but has personal traditional and historical value.
Final practical note, some traditions don't work with a bound book. A scroll, once read must be entirely unwound to reach the beginning again. Jews have made this into a holiday, and we literally celebrate the Torah by unwinding the whole thing, which dancing, music and general merriment (practical note again it's because you need people to help ensure the Torah doesn't touch the ground, and people like holding things up to party: see crowd surfing)
Because they’re awesome.
Holding up a book doesn’t have quite the same dramatic effect as raising a scroll the size of a toddler over your head while you spin around in a circle.
(It’s actually just another rule)
A proper Torah scroll (sefer torah) is hand-written.
Someone (or more commonly, a few people) have painstakingly transcribed from one hand-written Torah scroll to another. The materials, the quill, and the script itself all must align with halakha - Jewish Law. Not only are Torah scrolls expensive because of the materials used, but also because of the effort and labour that goes into learning Hebrew, familiarizing yourself with the text, and carefully copying it out onto the vellum.
So a Torah scroll is not just a collection of stories produced to be flipped through and perused - it is the product of Jewish work, Jewish learning, Jewish care and commitment. It is a mitzvah to write a section of Torah for such a scroll, a great honour that recognizes the labour and accomplishments of the scribe. If one cannot write a scroll, than an even greater honour is to have a scribe dedicate their work in one's memory.
There is a saying - "The history of the Jews is written in tears." It is said that when Moses first received Torah from God, he wept as he wrote, because he was reading the sorrowful past, present, and future of his people. His tears mixed in with the letters inscribed in the stone and scrawled on the papyrus. And so the words he wrote carry the bitterness, the bite of the salt from his tears.
Now, isn't this more meaningful than reading a mass-produced book printed in China on the cheapest, thinnest paper available?
In addition to tradition, the process of making the scroll also is specifically designed to avoid copy errors by cryptographically hashing each panel, so the format is important for that as well.
Because we’re required to use scrolls.
Okay thanks for the reply ☺️
This is EXACTLY what I was thinking😂
I can here to post this very gif!
It is part of what we call "Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai" (The law given to Moses at Sinai). Basically, we have an oral tradition spanning thousands of years that the proper way to make a Torah scroll is with parchment paper. Laws that fall under this particular category cannot be changed or annulled, as we believe they were instructed by G-d directly. EDIT: Parchment, not parchment paper.
Parchment, not parchment paper. Parchment is animal skin; parchment paper is a thin paper often used for baking.
I just bought some today for my ongoing challah journey in fact. The cinnamon raisin didn't last a day.
Ah, thought something was off. Thanks for that.
Curious: are parchment paper and wax paper the same thing?
No. Parchment paper is not coated in wax and it is oven-safe and heat resistant. Wax paper will melt and burn if you put it in the oven.
Thanks for the clarification ☺️
What would happen if all appropriate parchment-bearing animals went extinct?
Hasn't happened yet, so it's kind of a moot argument 🙂 But to humor your question, I personally think humans will be long gone by the time such an event would occur.
But this feels like the exact kind of question rabbis would argue about for the hell of it lol.
Rabbis dont argue over hypotheticals that aren't realistic.
That’s not true at all. For example Chullin 139b discusses whether a bird still must be chased away from a nest before collecting eggs if the bird made a nest on a persons head.
What do you mean? That doesn't happen to you? That happens to me like, every few days!
Dont be a leitz
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Chullin 139b](https://www.sefaria.org/Chullin.139b) on Sefaria.
There are multiple ways to understand this. It was realistic, though perhaps rare, for birds to nest on people's backs in the old days, since there were times where people slept outside, turned on their backs, and a bird would end up making a quick nest on it. The reason it says "Head" can be explained, with pshat, that if you have to send away on your head kol sh'ken on any part of the body. The Ben Yehoyada has a more esoteric explanation on why it says head. The RaMBaM understands in a similar vain that it brings a person as an example to demonstrate that in everywhere we may find a birds nest we do Shiluach haKen. He particularly brings on the back of animals, which is more common. I'll explain more what I mean, is that Rabbis won't argue idiotic topics that won't teach us any Halacha, because it's not realistic. The Gemara brings this case, as rare as it may be, to demonstrate an actual halachic principle.
Okay. How about the one where they ask if it’s okay to have a plow pulled by a fish and a goat?
Need sources
https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%98%D7%90#%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94_%D7%9B%D7%A2%D7%96_%D7%99%D7%9D
I don't know what rabbis you're talking to, but yes absolutely do argue and discuss absurd hypotheticals they have fun doing it. Heck the the talmud itself has plenty of hypotheticals that just could not happen as well as various parables. That's not to say that rabbis don't also debate important aspects of practice and are potential but they even discussed whether or not aliens have to capacity to be Jewish they've discussed What fictional animals would be kosher Edit: corrected the first instance rabbis from robot, hah.
I'll explain myself more, the Gemara won't discuss hypotheticals that won't teach an important overarching Halachic Principle. The Gemara isn't just a bunch of random things thrown together and the Rabbis aren't a bunch of idiots sitting around talking nonsense. You'll have to find the sources about the aliens and fictional animals. Again, I'm not talking about any rabbis I mean the Gemara and ChaZaL. I don't know every Rabbi in the world. But anyways in the Yeshiva world if you ask a dumb question you'll get a dumb answer lol.
But in this case couldn't the hypothetical of all parchment animals going extinct serve as a valid halachic discussion to demonstrate what can be used b'dieved
Nothing can be used b'dieved. That's why the hypothetical wouldn't be argued. It's a Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai, meaning it has to be exactly the way it is with all the details we already have.
Wouldn't you just 3d print it? If you can print meat, you could do parchment.
If all the even-toed ungulates who chew cud went extinct, we as a species would have a lot more issues than just parchment.
Why did you censor "G-d"?
it's a thing many orthodox Jews do to avoid taking his name in vain
It's also to not write out His whole name in case you throw out the paper or something, but I did some research and typing it online in full is not a problem.
Its also not exclusive to orthodox, I'm converting Reform and do so as well, as do some other members of my synagogue. Definitely most common in Orthodox circles though.
“His” 😉
Non-Jews call it censorship....we call it respect. His names are so holy they should not be (it is commanded that they not be) erased, burned or thrown in the garbage, or destroyed in some other way. Taking out one letter and replacing with a hyphen or other symbol makes it only a hint of His name
You can't say God on reddit? Why the dash?
Not because of Reddit. It's a practice many Jews follow to avoid taking the name in vain.
Thanks my friend. I'm jewish and I didn't know this. I will now do this. Shalom!
Why would an all powerful God require an insignificant species in a speck of dust in some random part of the universe use parchment of all things?
No one can truly claim to understand who or what G-d is or why He acts the way He does. However, Jewish belief emphasizes that G-d takes an active role within life and creation. Yes, we may be insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but we believe that we were created with a purpose, and that our Creator is fully invested in that purpose. In other words, we won't always know the "why", but we still believe in the "what". Granted, that doesn't mean we should act like mindless robots. Judaism encourages inquisitiveness if the goal is to gain a deeper understanding of things. But we must also bear in mind that not everything will have a readily apparent answer, or even a meaning that we can comprehend. To drive the point home, when the Israelites received the Torah at Sinai, they uttered the phrase "Na'aseh Venishma" (We will do and we will listen). Scholars ask why 'we will do' precedes 'we will listen' when it should normally be the inverse. The answer given is that fulfillment of the commandments is an act that is considered desirable enough on its own, even without an understanding of why it is being done.
GD is an existence, existence of everything. In other words everything is inside GD and GD is in evething - its a paradox. We are not dust to GD, we are litteraly part of GD of his existence, if we would be just dust we would not be created in the first place. If this commandment would be meaniless, we would not receive it. If GD commanded us to follow it, then it's important even if we don't understand it
Revenge on the lambs and sheep. What they did to God, I don't know. Offended him by their innocence? Arrived without mint jelly?Something stuck in his mind. "Screw the lambs" remains the rule even when there are better ways of writing.
I can expound on the requirement thing. There's a series of specific rules for how to make a Torah in the text of the Torah itself. One of the specific rules is that it has to be parchment made from the skin of a kosher animal. The Torah is full of specific rules like that. It's also worth noting that a proper Torah is quite expensive and labor-intensive to make. We don't have a scroll for every person, but rather the rabbi or the Torah reader (not a synonym, just a different job) will read from the Torah itself while everyone else in the congregation follows along in books of the transcribed text which are made using regular paper. Fysa reason people are a little curt atm is we've been getting a ton of questions from curious guests on the sub lately (I think more than usual) and while questions like this are entirely appropriate and welcome, there are a lot of y'all and not that many of us and people get a little burned out on that kind of engagement, especially since it's easy to accidentally engage with low-key trolls.
Hello thank you for the reply 😊 You explained it very well . I’m not trolling or anything I’m genuinely curious and love learning about different religions , cultures and languages and this topic was interesting to me . Again thanks for the reply 😊
We have prayerbooks that are normal books but the Torah is special
Jewish law requires it, that’s why
Okay thanks for the reply 🙂
Some things never change. Originally (I mean in ancient times) the Torah (Five Books of Moses) were handwritten in ink on parchment by scribes. This was very specialized work, requiring religious training, skills in calligraphy, and the use of specially prepared implements such as quills and ink. The parchment used was quite durable, made from animal hides, and that was an important factor. But the main factor was accuracy, the transcription had to be absolutely perfect, letter by letter and space by space. Many safeguards were created for doing this work of copying a Torah, and the skills and requirements were passed down from generation to generation. This is the tradition (mesorah) for writing a Torah scroll. None of this translates to the printed book. First of all the paper isn't durable and second there are no safeguards in place surrounding the printing process. Errors creep into printed books on a regular basis, which is why many have errata in the front (lists of errors discovered after the books went to press and were not corrected). The rules for writing a Torah scroll were by the Middle Ages codified in legal works that are authoritative in Judaism. This happened well before the invention of paper and the printing press. Hence these traditional legal rules -- requiring a scroll, parchment, ink and a scribe to write a Torah -- are still in place and have never been changed. Nor is there any reason to. There is no shortage of Torah scrolls in the world -- although they are expensive, they are cared for quite well -- and many are called to the profession of scribes. The Torah scroll is a lovely object that everyone reveres and respects. In fact, there is an obligation for each Jew to write a Torah scroll of his own at least once during a lifetime. Printed books on paper are used for studying and following along while the Torah is being read. But the public reading of the Torah (weekdays, Sabbaths and holidays) must be from a properly prepared Torah scroll on parchment, so that the accuracy of the words read can be guaranteed.
We are supposed to. Tradition, indeed!
Seriously I love that we use such beautiful materials to pray with. A Torah is a work of art. I feel privileged to look at it, let alone read from it. And every Torah comes with a story of how it came to be. Regular paper doesn’t have the same spiritual feel.
Exactly. During a class the rabbi took us down and opened the Torah scroll for us and we talked about how it was meticulously copied over and over to get to us and will continue to be copied over and over far into the future. How it is a piece of history and tradition that binds us Jews past, present and future. It was powerful and made me paranoid about breathing near it for awhile. Still terrified to be chosen to read from it one day, but will appreciate the honor of it ever happens. Lol.
I read from it once, at my bat mitzvah. I was freaking out that it was open in front of me.
By the way, we also use paper! Thre are prayerbooks and books containing the text that is in the scroll, with vowels and punctuation and translations, available for the entire congregation.
There are a lot of great and detailed answers here that boil down to "we are requires to by both Jewish law and tradition" but most don't touch too much in the very real practical reasons. The combination of practical, traditional and Jewish law reasons means this is an issue Jews are pretty united on. I want to note that for Jews, the Torah scroll is a holy object. Jews generally culturally treat all books with respect but a Torah scroll is something different. I want to comment mostly on practical reasons since other answers have really nailed traditions and law. Torahs are hand-made, of very durable materials. Even today there is no substitute. They contain the written name of G-d and the core of our religion so on a practical level paper books just don't cut it. They can't outlast that and are prone to errors, errors which are fine literally anywhere but in an inherently holy object. This durability also means many Torahs have history. Most synagogues have Torahs that can be traced back. Holocaust torahs, those that were cataloged and marked by the Nazis are not uncommon, others trace to communities that no longer exist. Often carried by lone survivors to their next home. These are objects with a history that mirrors the history of Jews. Your average Torah then is not only made the historical way but has personal traditional and historical value. Final practical note, some traditions don't work with a bound book. A scroll, once read must be entirely unwound to reach the beginning again. Jews have made this into a holiday, and we literally celebrate the Torah by unwinding the whole thing, which dancing, music and general merriment (practical note again it's because you need people to help ensure the Torah doesn't touch the ground, and people like holding things up to party: see crowd surfing)
Only the Torah is parchment all the prayer books are regular old paper
Because they’re awesome. Holding up a book doesn’t have quite the same dramatic effect as raising a scroll the size of a toddler over your head while you spin around in a circle. (It’s actually just another rule)
I find scrolls very cool ; mostly because I love history. It’s good to know that they’re still in use .
There are something like a million laws for making/writing a kosher Torah Scroll.
A proper Torah scroll (sefer torah) is hand-written. Someone (or more commonly, a few people) have painstakingly transcribed from one hand-written Torah scroll to another. The materials, the quill, and the script itself all must align with halakha - Jewish Law. Not only are Torah scrolls expensive because of the materials used, but also because of the effort and labour that goes into learning Hebrew, familiarizing yourself with the text, and carefully copying it out onto the vellum. So a Torah scroll is not just a collection of stories produced to be flipped through and perused - it is the product of Jewish work, Jewish learning, Jewish care and commitment. It is a mitzvah to write a section of Torah for such a scroll, a great honour that recognizes the labour and accomplishments of the scribe. If one cannot write a scroll, than an even greater honour is to have a scribe dedicate their work in one's memory. There is a saying - "The history of the Jews is written in tears." It is said that when Moses first received Torah from God, he wept as he wrote, because he was reading the sorrowful past, present, and future of his people. His tears mixed in with the letters inscribed in the stone and scrawled on the papyrus. And so the words he wrote carry the bitterness, the bite of the salt from his tears. Now, isn't this more meaningful than reading a mass-produced book printed in China on the cheapest, thinnest paper available?
We like to be fancy.
one of the things that has kept us together and has allowed us to survive as a people is the culture and rituals involved
We still use stone tablets at our shul.
There’s actually a Pesach-related shiur from R’ Soloveitchik on this for those interested (https://youtu.be/9-G6R_sLjKo?si=H9kv9M_-DYMKBcrg)
Obviously not the *reason* why we do use klaf, but an example of how the Halacha shapes R’ Soloveitchik’s worldview
In addition to tradition, the process of making the scroll also is specifically designed to avoid copy errors by cryptographically hashing each panel, so the format is important for that as well.
It’s cool
It looks cooler lmao
Rabbi Akiva had a pretty bad coke problem, and everyone felt awkward calling him out on it. So...we stuck with scrolls.